I do find it funny that we often forget that long before f2p and micro transactions that many gamers complained about the sub model. Players complained that they had already purchased the game and the sun fee was just the dev being greedy. No, payment model doesn't change the feel of an individual game. And games can suck no matter what the payment model is.
I don't remember that to be true at all. We didn't talk about sub cost nor anything else related to monetization of MMOs back in the sub days.
Talking about monetization and doing cost analysis of playing an MMO is something that was introduced with and belongs to the F2P times.
It was pretty damn simple before: pay the sub or don't pay the sub. Nothing else about costs to talk about.
This whole notion that there was as much whining about sub costs in the sub only days as there is about cash shops today is frankly BS - there wasn't. I was there in many forums. Never heard it.
I just chalk that up to likely industry instigated pro cash shop revisionist propaganda that may appeal to some who are looking at things now, but it certainly wasn't a common whine of the sub-only era.
Aslo got to disagree with you on there being no impact on game play time quality. You're trying to make it sound as if fretting about the sub was something that was as much on your mind while logging in to play as the ever present special offers and sales are when you log-in today.
Back in those days you logged into games and played them and every few weeks you went to some other place and renewed your sub if you wanted to. These days you log into combination game / mall things. And that's just to get you started there are umpteen reminders throughout the games that the game and mall at both at your service anytime you want to interacts with one or the other.
That seems like a pretty big and basic difference to me.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I do find it funny that we often forget that long before f2p and micro transactions that many gamers complained about the sub model. Players complained that they had already purchased the game and the sun fee was just the dev being greedy. No, payment model doesn't change the feel of an individual game. And games can suck no matter what the payment model is.
I don't remember that to be true at all. We didn't talk about sub cost nor anything else related to monetization of MMOs back in the sub days.
Talking about monetization and doing cost analysis of playing an MMO is something that was introduced with and belongs to the F2P times.
It was pretty damn simple before: pay the sub or don't pay the sub. Nothing else about costs to talk about.
This whole notion that there was as much whining about sub costs in the sub only days as there is about cash shops today is frankly BS - there wasn't. I was there in many forums. Never heard it.
I just chalk that up to likely industry instigated pro cash shop revisionist propaganda that may appeal to some who are looking at things now, but it certainly wasn't a common whine of the sub-only era.
Aslo got to disagree with you on there being no impact on game play time quality. You're trying to make it sound as if fretting about the sub was something that was as much on your mind while logging in to play as the ever present special offers and sales are when you log-in today.
Back in those days you logged into games and played them and every few weeks you went to some other place and renewed your sub if you wanted to. These days you log into combination game / mall things. And that's just to get you started there are umpteen reminders throughout the games that the game and mall at both at your service anytime you want to interacts with one or the other.
That seems like a pretty big and basic difference to me.
We must have been in different circles because I do remember people complaining about subs. No, it wasn't near the level of how people complain about cash shops, but it was there. I remember it as a reason I had to find virtual friends because my real life friends weren't willing to play a game that had a monthly fee. And although the vocal forum members here don't like cash shops doesn't mean they aren't popular.
Just for the record, I was and always will be on the side of sub only MMOs. I would much rather pay a monthly fee to get everything without having to think about spending money on it constantly. I am also able to play a f2p game without the urge to throw money at the game every second I'm playing. I consider the cash shop and any in-game advertisements for it to be a very minor distraction at most. That doesn't mean there aren't games that inundate you with ads, I just simply turn them off and play something else. Yet those games continue to attract more and more players, proving that enough gamers out there are happy with the model for it to continue.
I don't remember that to be true at all. We didn't talk about sub cost nor anything else related to monetization of MMOs back in the sub days.
Talking about monetization and doing cost analysis of playing an MMO is something that was introduced with and belongs to the F2P times.
It was pretty damn simple before: pay the sub or don't pay the sub. Nothing else about costs to talk about.
Going to have to disagree with you on this one.
In fact I remember this being an issue as far back as Text Muds, where long term players felt that at some point they should have paid enough to have rightfully owned the game, and not need to keep paying a sub.
This is one of those things that made F2P so popular, that players didn't need to pay a sub just to access the game.
In fact, I not trying to be rude, but outside some people on this forum, I don't ever recall hearing people being unhappy with the idea of Not Needing to pay a sub.
While there has always been a fuss about what is sold in the item shop, that lack of a sub, is not something that comes up as a problem for players.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I do find it funny that we often forget that long before f2p and micro transactions that many gamers complained about the sub model. Players complained that they had already purchased the game and the sun fee was just the dev being greedy. No, payment model doesn't change the feel of an individual game. And games can suck no matter what the payment model is.
I don't remember that to be true at all. We didn't talk about sub cost nor anything else related to monetization of MMOs back in the sub days.
Talking about monetization and doing cost analysis of playing an MMO is something that was introduced with and belongs to the F2P times.
It was pretty damn simple before: pay the sub or don't pay the sub. Nothing else about costs to talk about.
This whole notion that there was as much whining about sub costs in the sub only days as there is about cash shops today is frankly BS - there wasn't. I was there in many forums. Never heard it.
I just chalk that up to likely industry instigated pro cash shop revisionist propaganda that may appeal to some who are looking at things now, but it certainly wasn't a common whine of the sub-only era.
Aslo got to disagree with you on there being no impact on game play time quality. You're trying to make it sound as if fretting about the sub was something that was as much on your mind while logging in to play as the ever present special offers and sales are when you log-in today.
Back in those days you logged into games and played them and every few weeks you went to some other place and renewed your sub if you wanted to. These days you log into combination game / mall things. And that's just to get you started there are umpteen reminders throughout the games that the game and mall at both at your service anytime you want to interacts with one or the other.
That seems like a pretty big and basic difference to me.
We must have been in different circles because I do remember people complaining about subs. No, it wasn't near the level of how people complain about cash shops, but it was there. I remember it as a reason I had to find virtual friends because my real life friends weren't willing to play a game that had a monthly fee. And although the vocal forum members here don't like cash shops doesn't mean they aren't popular.
Just for the record, I was and always will be on the side of sub only MMOs. I would much rather pay a monthly fee to get everything without having to think about spending money on it constantly. I am also able to play a f2p game without the urge to throw money at the game every second I'm playing. I consider the cash shop and any in-game advertisements for it to be a very minor distraction at most. That doesn't mean there aren't games that inundate you with ads, I just simply turn them off and play something else. Yet those games continue to attract more and more players, proving that enough gamers out there are happy with the model for it to continue.
Might have been different circles and/or an age thing. I was always an adult, 35+ actually, when I started playing sub MMOs. I had plenty of disposable income at the time and sub costs seemed like such a cheap and great deal compared to every other entertainment thing I spent money on. They still seem that way even now that I'm a retired old fart on a fixed income.
I was always also a one MMO at a time kind of player. I might have felt different had I wanted to...
***** BROADCAST MESSAGE: @Kyleran has won an Radiant Apex Golden Throbbing Unicorn of Fate from a Sylvan Spring crate. Grats @Kyleran! *****
...jump around several MMOs.
Have you played Neverwinter, BTW?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I recall in Everquest some members in my guild had other members paying for their subs. We just took it for granted that if you wanted to play you had to pay the sub. There were no other options. I think there were complaints but because there was no way to play if you didn't have a sub that grousing was a lot less.
It became more pronounced once other options became available. It was never because people were happy to pay the sub it was just that we had no other options. I think that that is an important distinction to make.
I recall in Everquest some members in my guild had other members paying for their subs. We just took it for granted that if you wanted to play you had to pay the sub. There were no other options. I think there were complaints but because there was no way to play if you didn't have a sub that grousing was a lot less.
It became more pronounced once other options became available. It was never because people were happy to pay the sub it was just that we had no other options. I think that that is an important distinction to make.
My first experience was paying by the minute for games...
So when we got to pay a sub for unlimited access... I never thought I was getting anything other than a fantastic deal.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I recall in Everquest some members in my guild had other members paying for their subs. We just took it for granted that if you wanted to play you had to pay the sub. There were no other options. I think there were complaints but because there was no way to play if you didn't have a sub that grousing was a lot less.
It became more pronounced once other options became available. It was never because people were happy to pay the sub it was just that we had no other options. I think that that is an important distinction to make.
My first experience was paying by the minute for games...
So when we got to pay a sub for unlimited access... I never thought I was getting anything other than a fantastic deal.
Same. That was the pre-internet way on Compuserve, AOL and other services.
I was paying by the minute just to chat mostly.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Wanna talk hardcore. In this game which I loved... not only could you die, drop your stuff but I remember you had a chance to get eaten or something which was either permadeath or you lost half your levels.
I recall in Everquest some members in my guild had other members paying for their subs. We just took it for granted that if you wanted to play you had to pay the sub. There were no other options. I think there were complaints but because there was no way to play if you didn't have a sub that grousing was a lot less.
It became more pronounced once other options became available. It was never because people were happy to pay the sub it was just that we had no other options. I think that that is an important distinction to make.
My first experience was paying by the minute for games...
So when we got to pay a sub for unlimited access... I never thought I was getting anything other than a fantastic deal.
Same. That was the pre-internet way on Compuserve, AOL and other services.
I was paying by the minute just to chat mostly.
Yep, paid Genie $15 per hr peak, $6 hr off peak, online gaming while available was out of the question.
When I found out I could get unlimited online play time for $15 per month I was in gaming nirvana....and initially outside of the box / expansion prices nothing else to buy, ever.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
***** BROADCAST MESSAGE: @Kyleran has won an Radiant Apex Golden Throbbing Unicorn of Fate from a Sylvan Spring crate. Grats @Kyleran! *****
...jump around several MMOs.
Have you played Neverwinter, BTW?
Boy, that brought back memories of a lot of MMO's that I quit day 1.
Yah, I played Neverwinter, kinda sucked IMHO, I only played it long enough to get to 20th, so I could play with the foundry, hated every damn level up.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
***** BROADCAST MESSAGE: @Kyleran has won an Radiant Apex Golden Throbbing Unicorn of Fate from a Sylvan Spring crate. Grats @Kyleran! *****
...jump around several MMOs.
Have you played Neverwinter, BTW?
Boy, that brought back memories of a lot of MMO's that I quit day 1.
Yah, I played Neverwinter, kinda sucked IMHO, I only played it long enough to get to 20th, so I could play with the foundry, hated every damn level up.
Neverwinter was actually the first I ever played where I saw top loot crate rewards when they happened sent out as zone-wide (game-wide?) broadcast messages. I seem to recall that the item name was a hyperlink that gave you 3D view of whatever it was.
I also wasn't there long, just a week or two during "beta" so I have no idea if those obnoxious broadcasts are still a thing. They probably conditioned whoever stuck around to think of them as neither annoying, obtrusive nor tacky.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
***** BROADCAST MESSAGE: @Kyleran has won an Radiant Apex Golden Throbbing Unicorn of Fate from a Sylvan Spring crate. Grats @Kyleran! *****
...jump around several MMOs.
Have you played Neverwinter, BTW?
Boy, that brought back memories of a lot of MMO's that I quit day 1.
Yah, I played Neverwinter, kinda sucked IMHO, I only played it long enough to get to 20th, so I could play with the foundry, hated every damn level up.
Neverwinter was actually the first I ever played where I saw top loot crate rewards when they happened sent out as zone-wide (game-wide?) broadcast messages. I seem to recall that the item name was a hyperlink that gave you 3D view of whatever it was.
I also wasn't there long, just a week or two during "beta" so I have no idea if those obnoxious broadcasts are still a thing. They probably conditioned whoever stuck around to think of them as neither annoying, obtrusive nor tacky.
I equate it to kind of how cat owners don't realize after a while how bad the kitty litter smells, or the hum of a fan on a computer, you just get used to it after a while, and forget that it is even there.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
***** BROADCAST MESSAGE: @Kyleran has won an Radiant Apex Golden Throbbing Unicorn of Fate from a Sylvan Spring crate. Grats @Kyleran! *****
...jump around several MMOs.
Have you played Neverwinter, BTW?
Boy, that brought back memories of a lot of MMO's that I quit day 1.
Yah, I played Neverwinter, kinda sucked IMHO, I only played it long enough to get to 20th, so I could play with the foundry, hated every damn level up.
Neverwinter was actually the first I ever played where I saw top loot crate rewards when they happened sent out as zone-wide (game-wide?) broadcast messages. I seem to recall that the item name was a hyperlink that gave you 3D view of whatever it was.
I also wasn't there long, just a week or two during "beta" so I have no idea if those obnoxious broadcasts are still a thing. They probably conditioned whoever stuck around to think of them as neither annoying, obtrusive nor tacky.
They do that in a lot of games. Fortunately, they allow you to customize the UI layout quite a bit in Champions Online, so I can mostly hide those notifications behind the minimap such that it is no longer distracting in play. Otherwise it was pretty much at middle of the screen and would have been quite a bother if stationary.
I recall in Everquest some members in my guild had other members paying for their subs. We just took it for granted that if you wanted to play you had to pay the sub. There were no other options. I think there were complaints but because there was no way to play if you didn't have a sub that grousing was a lot less.
It became more pronounced once other options became available. It was never because people were happy to pay the sub it was just that we had no other options. I think that that is an important distinction to make.
My first experience was paying by the minute for games...
So when we got to pay a sub for unlimited access... I never thought I was getting anything other than a fantastic deal.
Same. That was the pre-internet way on Compuserve, AOL and other services.
I was paying by the minute just to chat mostly.
Thanks for the flashbacks to the AOL and Compuserve days. Neverwinter Nights was a blast. I even became a game mod for a game called VGA Planets just so I could get 5 free hours a month on AOL.
I do find it funny that we often forget that long before f2p and micro transactions that many gamers complained about the sub model. Players complained that they had already purchased the game and the sun fee was just the dev being greedy. No, payment model doesn't change the feel of an individual game. And games can suck no matter what the payment model is.
I don't remember that to be true at all. We didn't talk about sub cost nor anything else related to monetization of MMOs back in the sub days.
Talking about monetization and doing cost analysis of playing an MMO is something that was introduced with and belongs to the F2P times.
It was pretty damn simple before: pay the sub or don't pay the sub. Nothing else about costs to talk about.
This whole notion that there was as much whining about sub costs in the sub only days as there is about cash shops today is frankly BS - there wasn't. I was there in many forums. Never heard it.
I just chalk that up to likely industry instigated pro cash shop revisionist propaganda that may appeal to some who are looking at things now, but it certainly wasn't a common whine of the sub-only era.
Aslo got to disagree with you on there being no impact on game play time quality. You're trying to make it sound as if fretting about the sub was something that was as much on your mind while logging in to play as the ever present special offers and sales are when you log-in today.
Back in those days you logged into games and played them and every few weeks you went to some other place and renewed your sub if you wanted to. These days you log into combination game / mall things. And that's just to get you started there are umpteen reminders throughout the games that the game and mall at both at your service anytime you want to interacts with one or the other.
That seems like a pretty big and basic difference to me.
We must have been in different circles because I do remember people complaining about subs. No, it wasn't near the level of how people complain about cash shops, but it was there. I remember it as a reason I had to find virtual friends because my real life friends weren't willing to play a game that had a monthly fee. And although the vocal forum members here don't like cash shops doesn't mean they aren't popular.
Just for the record, I was and always will be on the side of sub only MMOs. I would much rather pay a monthly fee to get everything without having to think about spending money on it constantly. I am also able to play a f2p game without the urge to throw money at the game every second I'm playing. I consider the cash shop and any in-game advertisements for it to be a very minor distraction at most. That doesn't mean there aren't games that inundate you with ads, I just simply turn them off and play something else. Yet those games continue to attract more and more players, proving that enough gamers out there are happy with the model for it to continue.
There were people who complained about subs, but I cannot think of any issue talked about less in regards to MMOs back in the day. Considerably more talked about exactly what the tariff should be. Though even the exact tariff charged was a non-issue in comparison to any other issue of the day. Once F2p started to come into Western Markets it increasingly became THE topic of discussion.
The effect of F2P on MMORPG's was to change the way they are made, nearly always in a detrimental manner. Likewise NFT and even more so crypto will do the same. If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
Scot said: If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
With this in mind, know that you have never played a "Good MMO"
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Scot said: If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
With this in mind, know that you have never played a "Good MMO"
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
The difference of course being that old games were made by programmers and gamers who did some back of the napkin math and tossed $15 a month up as what they thought was a fair price for the game they were building. As opposed to today where there are literal departments of people who specialize in prying every penny from the players.
Something as simple as:
How big should the player's inventory be? In old games this was a design question around gameplay. Today, it is a question around what level of inventory restriction will become just annoying enough to prompt a small upgrade purchase in the cash shop.
Old school = make game fun so people want to play and will pay for access. New school = make a game fun, but parts of it annoying so that you will pay to remove those annoyances. So it in integrated into all aspects of the game.
So yeah.... as a business, every MMO had to have some thought to how they would make money... but old school and new school monetization are not even in the same ballpark and no, they were not "designed around" their income system in any but the most cursory fashion (ie. is it fun enough for people to pay each month).
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
We're living in the golden age of MMO gaming in my opinion. Tons of choices for modern and old school MMOs are available.
It is exhausting seeing the same post over and over again about how old MMOs were better and modern MMOs are crap. A lot of these posts are just nostalgic fools romanticizing the past.
The complaints about the cash shops are hilarious too. Most of the stuff can be ignored and rarely has an impact on player power.
The reason these cash shops exist is because gamers were too cheap to pay more than 15 bucks a month for a subscription. We did this to ourselves.
Modern games require a lot of money to maintain and develop, and 15 bucks a month isn't going to keep the lights on anymore. This is why cash shops exist.
I love these references to the old days. Looked up Compuserve for fun and it was running on PDP-10 computers. Ah, the good old days. In 1976, I was given the choice of what machine to go to work on, the CDC mainframe, DEC-10, or the little PDP-11 that was running something called the ARPANET. I chose that one, since I came from the minicomputer side of things.
Never used AOL or Compuserve or any of the dial-up services, was on the real net by then.
I loved RPG games, and when EQ first came out, I bought it. Then I realized you had to supply a credit card to play, and returned the game to the store.
I got into DAOC in 2001, and never worried about the sub. I don't remember anybody complaining about the cost of the sub back then.
With the huge success of WoW, major investors realized that online gaming wasn't just a niche, it could bring in millions of dollars. The genre morphed from a few nerd gamers making fun games, to big business trying to monetize the game to get the most return on investment.
They are made for as large playerbase as possible, which results in shallower and dumber games. TES 3 Morrowind from 2002 was made for hardcore RPG players, TES 5 Skyrim from 2011 was made everyone and their grandma (Skyrim Grandma was a thing), this resulted in massive sales and revenue for the developer, but it also resulted in a very dumbed-down and shallow game and hardcore RPG fans were f*cked over by the developer.
I've come to the sad conclusion that people who want to play games like they did "back in the day" should just stick to older games, and if they can't play old games anymore, they should either try to adapt to new ones or just put gaming behind them.
They are made for as large playerbase as possible, which results in shallower and dumber games. TES 3 Morrowind from 2002 was made for hardcore RPG players, TES 5 Skyrim from 2011 was made everyone and their grandma (Skyrim Grandma was a thing), this resulted in massive sales and revenue for the developer, but it also resulted in a very dumbed-down and shallow game and hardcore RPG fans were f*cked over by the developer.
I've come to the sad conclusion that people who want to play games like they did "back in the day" should just stick to older games, and if they can't play old games anymore, they should either try to adapt to new ones or just put gaming behind them.
Pretty much the approach I've been taking the past 5 years or so.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Scot said: If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
With this in mind, know that you have never played a "Good MMO"
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
The difference of course being that old games were made by programmers and gamers who did some back of the napkin math and tossed $15 a month up as what they thought was a fair price for the game they were building. As opposed to today where there are literal departments of people who specialize in prying every penny from the players.
Something as simple as:
How big should the player's inventory be? In old games this was a design question around gameplay. Today, it is a question around what level of inventory restriction will become just annoying enough to prompt a small upgrade purchase in the cash shop.
Old school = make game fun so people want to play and will pay for access. New school = make a game fun, but parts of it annoying so that you will pay to remove those annoyances. So it in integrated into all aspects of the game.
So yeah.... as a business, every MMO had to have some thought to how they would make money... but old school and new school monetization are not even in the same ballpark and no, they were not "designed around" their income system in any but the most cursory fashion (ie. is it fun enough for people to pay each month).
Was it though? Was inventory space really about gameplay and not about money? One could argue that inventory space back in the day was limited to a certain amount to ensure the player had to come back to town to sell more often. Going back to town limited the amount of actual time killing things, and directly increased the amount of time needed to level, aka grind. It also meant that players would drop "worthless" items, resulting in a loss of gold that they would have, again increasing the amount of time needed to grind.
Increasing inventory space is a convenience for the players that will allow them to complete more of the game in less time and therefore a price tag has been put on that convenience.
Yes, it's a pretty weak argument, but so is the belief that devs 20-30 years ago were only thinking about gameplay. It is based on our desire to put old devs onto some sort of pedestal and honor them for only thinking about the gamers when in reality they too were just trying to make a buck.
Scot said: If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
With this in mind, know that you have never played a "Good MMO"
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
Once upon a time the only path to profit for providers was the game itself and it's ability to draw and retain players. The focus was on making the game good out of necessity.
That singularity was broken when considerable revenue could be earned from other than providing the best game they possibly could, allowing the focus of providers to wander.
Scot said: If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
With this in mind, know that you have never played a "Good MMO"
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
The difference of course being that old games were made by programmers and gamers who did some back of the napkin math and tossed $15 a month up as what they thought was a fair price for the game they were building. As opposed to today where there are literal departments of people who specialize in prying every penny from the players.
Something as simple as:
How big should the player's inventory be? In old games this was a design question around gameplay. Today, it is a question around what level of inventory restriction will become just annoying enough to prompt a small upgrade purchase in the cash shop.
Old school = make game fun so people want to play and will pay for access. New school = make a game fun, but parts of it annoying so that you will pay to remove those annoyances. So it in integrated into all aspects of the game.
So yeah.... as a business, every MMO had to have some thought to how they would make money... but old school and new school monetization are not even in the same ballpark and no, they were not "designed around" their income system in any but the most cursory fashion (ie. is it fun enough for people to pay each month).
Yes, it's a pretty weak argument, but so is the belief that devs 20-30 years ago were only thinking about gameplay.
Going back 20-30 years the game was the only thing they had to think about. It was literally a one pony show. If it failed to prance properly there was no other source of revenue to fall back on.
Scot said: If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
With this in mind, know that you have never played a "Good MMO"
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
The difference of course being that old games were made by programmers and gamers who did some back of the napkin math and tossed $15 a month up as what they thought was a fair price for the game they were building. As opposed to today where there are literal departments of people who specialize in prying every penny from the players.
Something as simple as:
How big should the player's inventory be? In old games this was a design question around gameplay. Today, it is a question around what level of inventory restriction will become just annoying enough to prompt a small upgrade purchase in the cash shop.
Old school = make game fun so people want to play and will pay for access. New school = make a game fun, but parts of it annoying so that you will pay to remove those annoyances. So it in integrated into all aspects of the game.
So yeah.... as a business, every MMO had to have some thought to how they would make money... but old school and new school monetization are not even in the same ballpark and no, they were not "designed around" their income system in any but the most cursory fashion (ie. is it fun enough for people to pay each month).
Was it though? Was inventory space really about gameplay and not about money? One could argue that inventory space back in the day was limited to a certain amount to ensure the player had to come back to town to sell more often. Going back to town limited the amount of actual time killing things, and directly increased the amount of time needed to level, aka grind. It also meant that players would drop "worthless" items, resulting in a loss of gold that they would have, again increasing the amount of time needed to grind.
Increasing inventory space is a convenience for the players that will allow them to complete more of the game in less time and therefore a price tag has been put on that convenience.
Yes, it's a pretty weak argument, but so is the belief that devs 20-30 years ago were only thinking about gameplay. It is based on our desire to put old devs onto some sort of pedestal and honor them for only thinking about the gamers when in reality they too were just trying to make a buck.
The difference is that today… that act of dropping the items would result in less items to sell for “gold” that could be exchanged for “gems” or some other item bought it sold for cash. Then that touches on the numbers of “currencies “ introduced. One of my great frustrations with Lost Ark was the sheer amount of currencies you had to keep track of, earn or buy.
At the end of the day, gen 1 games made money by keeping players playing the game. They wanted you to stay subbed. Todays games make money by selling you ways to bypass the game.
IMHO it really is that simple. And I don’t think that has anything to do with putting certain developers on a pedestal. If anything, we have learned over this last decade of Crowdfunding that the old school devs can’t deliver in todays world.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
Talking about monetization and doing cost analysis of playing an MMO is something that was introduced with and belongs to the F2P times.
It was pretty damn simple before: pay the sub or don't pay the sub. Nothing else about costs to talk about.
This whole notion that there was as much whining about sub costs in the sub only days as there is about cash shops today is frankly BS - there wasn't. I was there in many forums. Never heard it.
I just chalk that up to likely industry instigated pro cash shop revisionist propaganda that may appeal to some who are looking at things now, but it certainly wasn't a common whine of the sub-only era.
Aslo got to disagree with you on there being no impact on game play time quality. You're trying to make it sound as if fretting about the sub was something that was as much on your mind while logging in to play as the ever present special offers and sales are when you log-in today.
Back in those days you logged into games and played them and every few weeks you went to some other place and renewed your sub if you wanted to. These days you log into combination game / mall things. And that's just to get you started there are umpteen reminders throughout the games that the game and mall at both at your service anytime you want to interacts with one or the other.
That seems like a pretty big and basic difference to me.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Just for the record, I was and always will be on the side of sub only MMOs. I would much rather pay a monthly fee to get everything without having to think about spending money on it constantly. I am also able to play a f2p game without the urge to throw money at the game every second I'm playing. I consider the cash shop and any in-game advertisements for it to be a very minor distraction at most. That doesn't mean there aren't games that inundate you with ads, I just simply turn them off and play something else. Yet those games continue to attract more and more players, proving that enough gamers out there are happy with the model for it to continue.
In fact I remember this being an issue as far back as Text Muds, where long term players felt that at some point they should have paid enough to have rightfully owned the game, and not need to keep paying a sub.
This is one of those things that made F2P so popular, that players didn't need to pay a sub just to access the game.
In fact, I not trying to be rude, but outside some people on this forum, I don't ever recall hearing people being unhappy with the idea of Not Needing to pay a sub.
While there has always been a fuss about what is sold in the item shop, that lack of a sub, is not something that comes up as a problem for players.
I was always also a one MMO at a time kind of player. I might have felt different had I wanted to...
***** BROADCAST MESSAGE: @Kyleran has won an Radiant Apex Golden Throbbing Unicorn of Fate from a Sylvan Spring crate. Grats @Kyleran! *****
...jump around several MMOs.
Have you played Neverwinter, BTW?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
It became more pronounced once other options became available. It was never because people were happy to pay the sub it was just that we had no other options. I think that that is an important distinction to make.
So when we got to pay a sub for unlimited access... I never thought I was getting anything other than a fantastic deal.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I was paying by the minute just to chat mostly.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
https://www.engadget.com/2014-07-26-the-game-archaeologist-kingdom-of-drakkar.html
"Initially, players had to cough up between $3 to $5 an hour to connect over dial-up"
So yeah.. 14.99 for a month was a fantastic deal to me!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
When I found out I could get unlimited online play time for $15 per month I was in gaming nirvana....and initially outside of the box / expansion prices nothing else to buy, ever.
I miss those days, I really do.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yah, I played Neverwinter, kinda sucked IMHO, I only played it long enough to get to 20th, so I could play with the foundry, hated every damn level up.
I also wasn't there long, just a week or two during "beta" so I have no idea if those obnoxious broadcasts are still a thing. They probably conditioned whoever stuck around to think of them as neither annoying, obtrusive nor tacky.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
They do that in a lot of games. Fortunately, they allow you to customize the UI layout quite a bit in Champions Online, so I can mostly hide those notifications behind the minimap such that it is no longer distracting in play. Otherwise it was pretty much at middle of the screen and would have been quite a bother if stationary.
The effect of F2P on MMORPG's was to change the way they are made, nearly always in a detrimental manner. Likewise NFT and even more so crypto will do the same. If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
Something as simple as:
How big should the player's inventory be? In old games this was a design question around gameplay. Today, it is a question around what level of inventory restriction will become just annoying enough to prompt a small upgrade purchase in the cash shop.
Old school = make game fun so people want to play and will pay for access.
New school = make a game fun, but parts of it annoying so that you will pay to remove those annoyances. So it in integrated into all aspects of the game.
So yeah.... as a business, every MMO had to have some thought to how they would make money... but old school and new school monetization are not even in the same ballpark and no, they were not "designed around" their income system in any but the most cursory fashion (ie. is it fun enough for people to pay each month).
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It is exhausting seeing the same post over and over again about how old MMOs were better and modern MMOs are crap. A lot of these posts are just nostalgic fools romanticizing the past.
The complaints about the cash shops are hilarious too. Most of the stuff can be ignored and rarely has an impact on player power.
The reason these cash shops exist is because gamers were too cheap to pay more than 15 bucks a month for a subscription. We did this to ourselves.
Modern games require a lot of money to maintain and develop, and 15 bucks a month isn't going to keep the lights on anymore. This is why cash shops exist.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
I've come to the sad conclusion that people who want to play games like they did "back in the day" should just stick to older games, and if they can't play old games anymore, they should either try to adapt to new ones or just put gaming behind them.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Increasing inventory space is a convenience for the players that will allow them to complete more of the game in less time and therefore a price tag has been put on that convenience.
Yes, it's a pretty weak argument, but so is the belief that devs 20-30 years ago were only thinking about gameplay. It is based on our desire to put old devs onto some sort of pedestal and honor them for only thinking about the gamers when in reality they too were just trying to make a buck.
Once upon a time the only path to profit for providers was the game itself and it's ability to draw and retain players. The focus was on making the game good out of necessity.
That singularity was broken when considerable revenue could be earned from other than providing the best game they possibly could, allowing the focus of providers to wander.
Going back 20-30 years the game was the only thing they had to think about. It was literally a one pony show. If it failed to prance properly there was no other source of revenue to fall back on.
At the end of the day, gen 1 games made money by keeping players playing the game. They wanted you to stay subbed. Todays games make money by selling you ways to bypass the game.
IMHO it really is that simple. And I don’t think that has anything to do with putting certain developers on a pedestal. If anything, we have learned over this last decade of Crowdfunding that the old school devs can’t deliver in todays world.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018