Scot said: If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
With this in mind, know that you have never played a "Good MMO"
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
The difference of course being that old games were made by programmers and gamers who did some back of the napkin math and tossed $15 a month up as what they thought was a fair price for the game they were building. As opposed to today where there are literal departments of people who specialize in prying every penny from the players.
Something as simple as:
How big should the player's inventory be? In old games this was a design question around gameplay. Today, it is a question around what level of inventory restriction will become just annoying enough to prompt a small upgrade purchase in the cash shop.
Old school = make game fun so people want to play and will pay for access. New school = make a game fun, but parts of it annoying so that you will pay to remove those annoyances. So it in integrated into all aspects of the game.
So yeah.... as a business, every MMO had to have some thought to how they would make money... but old school and new school monetization are not even in the same ballpark and no, they were not "designed around" their income system in any but the most cursory fashion (ie. is it fun enough for people to pay each month).
Was it though? Was inventory space really about gameplay and not about money? One could argue that inventory space back in the day was limited to a certain amount to ensure the player had to come back to town to sell more often. Going back to town limited the amount of actual time killing things, and directly increased the amount of time needed to level, aka grind. It also meant that players would drop "worthless" items, resulting in a loss of gold that they would have, again increasing the amount of time needed to grind.
Increasing inventory space is a convenience for the players that will allow them to complete more of the game in less time and therefore a price tag has been put on that convenience.
Yes, it's a pretty weak argument, but so is the belief that devs 20-30 years ago were only thinking about gameplay. It is based on our desire to put old devs onto some sort of pedestal and honor them for only thinking about the gamers when in reality they too were just trying to make a buck.
The difference is that today… that act of dropping the items would result in less items to sell for “gold” that could be exchanged for “gems” or some other item bought it sold for cash. Then that touches on the numbers of “currencies “ introduced. One of my great frustrations with Lost Ark was the sheer amount of currencies you had to keep track of, earn or buy.
At the end of the day, gen 1 games made money by keeping players playing the game. They wanted you to stay subbed. Todays games make money by selling you ways to bypass the game.
IMHO it really is that simple. And I don’t think that has anything to do with putting certain developers on a pedestal. If anything, we have learned over this last decade of Crowdfunding that the old school devs can’t deliver in todays world.
It's not rocket science, if you sell ways to bypass the game, what are players going to do...bypass the game. Most P2W in the PvE part of a MMO is about bypassing the game, which leads you more quickly and better prepared to take part in PvP. Subs sell a game experience, if you want to keep having that experience you have to pay the sub.
The modern way of making a MMO is clearly raking the money in but the whole of gaming is facing the fact players don't want to play individual games as long as they used to. If you front load content and design a revenue structure which bypasses content that is is bound to happen.
The fact that people would go to 3rd party sites to get power leveled or just buy the best gear, shows players NEVER wanted to play a game as long they used to be forced to.
No it shows that some players were always prepared to cheat and still are. The fact players will buy pass story content in FF does not make them the sort of players who would use 3rd party sites.
Nothing you said counters what I said, Players NEVER liked the grind... Ever.
You should make a few more assumptions about a group of individuals; it will further strengthen your argument. As Scot said, cheaters and corner cutters have always existed and the current state of gaming catters to them. There is little, if any, correlation between grind/playtime and cash shop boosts/leveling services. While I am sure there are a few people who legitimately use those services because they have limited time, I think they are the minority. I, for one, want the grind and the time commitment because that is part of playing a game you really enjoy.
Scot said: If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
With this in mind, know that you have never played a "Good MMO"
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
The difference of course being that old games were made by programmers and gamers who did some back of the napkin math and tossed $15 a month up as what they thought was a fair price for the game they were building. As opposed to today where there are literal departments of people who specialize in prying every penny from the players.
Something as simple as:
How big should the player's inventory be? In old games this was a design question around gameplay. Today, it is a question around what level of inventory restriction will become just annoying enough to prompt a small upgrade purchase in the cash shop.
Old school = make game fun so people want to play and will pay for access. New school = make a game fun, but parts of it annoying so that you will pay to remove those annoyances. So it in integrated into all aspects of the game.
So yeah.... as a business, every MMO had to have some thought to how they would make money... but old school and new school monetization are not even in the same ballpark and no, they were not "designed around" their income system in any but the most cursory fashion (ie. is it fun enough for people to pay each month).
Was it though? Was inventory space really about gameplay and not about money? One could argue that inventory space back in the day was limited to a certain amount to ensure the player had to come back to town to sell more often. Going back to town limited the amount of actual time killing things, and directly increased the amount of time needed to level, aka grind. It also meant that players would drop "worthless" items, resulting in a loss of gold that they would have, again increasing the amount of time needed to grind.
Increasing inventory space is a convenience for the players that will allow them to complete more of the game in less time and therefore a price tag has been put on that convenience.
Yes, it's a pretty weak argument, but so is the belief that devs 20-30 years ago were only thinking about gameplay. It is based on our desire to put old devs onto some sort of pedestal and honor them for only thinking about the gamers when in reality they too were just trying to make a buck.
One of my great frustrations with Lost Ark was the sheer amount of currencies you had to keep track of, earn or buy.
The thing that pisses me off is the amount of non-stacklable items, character bound items that could just as easily be roster bound, plus the amount of gold you obtain tied to RNG whihc you need for other RNG mechanics. LA does not respect your time at all end game. I hit iLevel 1355 and the game took a big dump.
Scot said: If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
With this in mind, know that you have never played a "Good MMO"
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
The difference of course being that old games were made by programmers and gamers who did some back of the napkin math and tossed $15 a month up as what they thought was a fair price for the game they were building. As opposed to today where there are literal departments of people who specialize in prying every penny from the players.
Something as simple as:
How big should the player's inventory be? In old games this was a design question around gameplay. Today, it is a question around what level of inventory restriction will become just annoying enough to prompt a small upgrade purchase in the cash shop.
Old school = make game fun so people want to play and will pay for access. New school = make a game fun, but parts of it annoying so that you will pay to remove those annoyances. So it in integrated into all aspects of the game.
So yeah.... as a business, every MMO had to have some thought to how they would make money... but old school and new school monetization are not even in the same ballpark and no, they were not "designed around" their income system in any but the most cursory fashion (ie. is it fun enough for people to pay each month).
Was it though? Was inventory space really about gameplay and not about money? One could argue that inventory space back in the day was limited to a certain amount to ensure the player had to come back to town to sell more often. Going back to town limited the amount of actual time killing things, and directly increased the amount of time needed to level, aka grind. It also meant that players would drop "worthless" items, resulting in a loss of gold that they would have, again increasing the amount of time needed to grind.
Increasing inventory space is a convenience for the players that will allow them to complete more of the game in less time and therefore a price tag has been put on that convenience.
Yes, it's a pretty weak argument, but so is the belief that devs 20-30 years ago were only thinking about gameplay. It is based on our desire to put old devs onto some sort of pedestal and honor them for only thinking about the gamers when in reality they too were just trying to make a buck.
The difference is that today… that act of dropping the items would result in less items to sell for “gold” that could be exchanged for “gems” or some other item bought it sold for cash. Then that touches on the numbers of “currencies “ introduced. One of my great frustrations with Lost Ark was the sheer amount of currencies you had to keep track of, earn or buy.
At the end of the day, gen 1 games made money by keeping players playing the game. They wanted you to stay subbed. Todays games make money by selling you ways to bypass the game.
IMHO it really is that simple. And I don’t think that has anything to do with putting certain developers on a pedestal. If anything, we have learned over this last decade of Crowdfunding that the old school devs can’t deliver in todays world.
It's not rocket science, if you sell ways to bypass the game, what are players going to do...bypass the game. Most P2W in the PvE part of a MMO is about bypassing the game, which leads you more quickly and better prepared to take part in PvP. Subs sell a game experience, if you want to keep having that experience you have to pay the sub.
The modern way of making a MMO is clearly raking the money in but the whole of gaming is facing the fact players don't want to play individual games as long as they used to. If you front load content and design a revenue structure which bypasses content that is is bound to happen.
The fact that people would go to 3rd party sites to get power leveled or just buy the best gear, shows players NEVER wanted to play a game as long they used to be forced to.
No it shows that some players were always prepared to cheat and still are. The fact players will buy pass story content in FF does not make them the sort of players who would use 3rd party sites.
Nothing you said counters what I said, Players NEVER liked the grind... Ever.
You should make a few more assumptions about a group of individuals; it will further strengthen your argument. As Scot said, cheaters and corner cutters have always existed and the current state of gaming catters to them. There is little, if any, correlation between grind/playtime and cash shop boosts/leveling services. While I am sure there are a few people who legitimately use those services because they have limited time, I think they are the minority. I, for one, want the grind and the time commitment because that is part of playing a game you really enjoy.
Oh I am sure that you, as in you directly, as a singular player, may have loved the grind.
Reality check, cash shops that bypass the grind would not be as popular as they are if you were not very much alone in loving the grind.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Can someone please come up with the formula to blend the best of old with the best of new and put it into high fantasy openworld. Thank you!
The best system, is still the Original Turbine Model, where you buy content in the form of DLC's/Adventure Packs, from the cash shop.
Best system ever, if you like the game, buy more of the game to play.
The game get funded by making more of the game, and you get more of the game you enjoy playing, everyone wins.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I only make factual statements and if you disagree you're just a Russian disinformation bot.
Seriously, I loved old school grind and hate new school grind. People used third party sites to get ahead of other people, not because they didn't like the grind but because they liked being better than everyone else.
I only make factual statements and if you disagree you're just a Russian disinformation bot.
Seriously, I loved old school grind and hate new school grind. People used third party sites to get ahead of other people, not because they didn't like the grind but because they liked being better than everyone else.
People used leveling services in SWG and WoW, then complained when their accounts got stolen along with credit card info. It wasn't widespread, though it was funny when it happened to someone from an opposing faction.
Some of my best memories from gaming were playing old school MMO's, mostly Asheron's Call & Dark Age of Camelot. I still reminisce with friends, some of which I met in those games about the adventures we'd go on, dungeons we wiped on, going on our first Dragon raid in DAoC, etc... Those games did a great job of making you feel immersed and not only did it require time to progress but they were challenging as well. I remember reaching level 50 in DAoC and the accomplishment I felt of finally reaching that goal is something that hasn't been and can't be duplicated in any of the modern MMO's.
Modern MMO's cater to the more casual play style. Leveling to max is super easy and usually something that can be accomplished in 1-2 weeks depending on how much you play. Gear is easier to come by and crafting systems are mostly gimmicks and not stuff you want to bother with at end game. It's all about catering to players that only have a couple hours to play each night. And while I don't like what MMO's have evolved into, I also don't have the same amount of time to invest that I used to, so games like Lost Ark appeal to me because I can play those types of games 1-2 hours and still feel like I've accomplished something.
I think what irritates me more than anything though is cash shops. I would prefer to play an MMO where I have a monthly fee and all content is in the game. I don't care if it's just cosmetics or it's just pets or mounts, I want to be able to acquire those things by in-game means and not having to pay for stuff with real money. Unfortunately, those days are long gone and now what we have are MMO's that are basically no different than a mobile game.
I only make factual statements and if you disagree you're just a Russian disinformation bot.
Seriously, I loved old school grind and hate new school grind. People used third party sites to get ahead of other people, not because they didn't like the grind but because they liked being better than everyone else.
LOL, you can't buy a leveling service, and think you will be better, because the people leveling you, will always be better than you.
But.. I am sure no one paused to consider that, as they spouted their 100% cannot be wrong absolute factual opinions, where anyone that disagreed with them was a Nazi Russian Disinformation Bot.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Can someone please come up with the formula to blend the best of old with the best of new and put it into high fantasy openworld. Thank you!
The best system, is still the Original Turbine Model, where you buy content in the form of DLC's/Adventure Packs, from the cash shop.
Best system ever, if you like the game, buy more of the game to play.
The game get funded by making more of the game, and you get more of the game you enjoy playing, everyone wins.
Hey now, wait up a minute. If the DDO Turbine model was the "Best" how come Turbine isn't still using it, and other developers aren't adopting it either?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Can someone please come up with the formula to blend the best of old with the best of new and put it into high fantasy openworld. Thank you!
The best system, is still the Original Turbine Model, where you buy content in the form of DLC's/Adventure Packs, from the cash shop.
Best system ever, if you like the game, buy more of the game to play.
The game get funded by making more of the game, and you get more of the game you enjoy playing, everyone wins.
Hey now, wait up a minute. If the DDO Turbine model was the "Best" how come Turbine isn't still using it, and other developers aren't adopting it either?
Perhaps it all comes down to, best for who?
Because it was the best for the players....
Which often does not equate to being the best system for greedy ass cooperation's.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Scot said: If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
With this in mind, know that you have never played a "Good MMO"
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
The difference of course being that old games were made by programmers and gamers who did some back of the napkin math and tossed $15 a month up as what they thought was a fair price for the game they were building. As opposed to today where there are literal departments of people who specialize in prying every penny from the players.
Something as simple as:
How big should the player's inventory be? In old games this was a design question around gameplay. Today, it is a question around what level of inventory restriction will become just annoying enough to prompt a small upgrade purchase in the cash shop.
Old school = make game fun so people want to play and will pay for access. New school = make a game fun, but parts of it annoying so that you will pay to remove those annoyances. So it in integrated into all aspects of the game.
So yeah.... as a business, every MMO had to have some thought to how they would make money... but old school and new school monetization are not even in the same ballpark and no, they were not "designed around" their income system in any but the most cursory fashion (ie. is it fun enough for people to pay each month).
Was it though? Was inventory space really about gameplay and not about money? One could argue that inventory space back in the day was limited to a certain amount to ensure the player had to come back to town to sell more often. Going back to town limited the amount of actual time killing things, and directly increased the amount of time needed to level, aka grind. It also meant that players would drop "worthless" items, resulting in a loss of gold that they would have, again increasing the amount of time needed to grind.
Increasing inventory space is a convenience for the players that will allow them to complete more of the game in less time and therefore a price tag has been put on that convenience.
Yes, it's a pretty weak argument, but so is the belief that devs 20-30 years ago were only thinking about gameplay. It is based on our desire to put old devs onto some sort of pedestal and honor them for only thinking about the gamers when in reality they too were just trying to make a buck.
The difference is that today… that act of dropping the items would result in less items to sell for “gold” that could be exchanged for “gems” or some other item bought it sold for cash. Then that touches on the numbers of “currencies “ introduced. One of my great frustrations with Lost Ark was the sheer amount of currencies you had to keep track of, earn or buy.
At the end of the day, gen 1 games made money by keeping players playing the game. They wanted you to stay subbed. Todays games make money by selling you ways to bypass the game.
IMHO it really is that simple. And I don’t think that has anything to do with putting certain developers on a pedestal. If anything, we have learned over this last decade of Crowdfunding that the old school devs can’t deliver in todays world.
It's not rocket science, if you sell ways to bypass the game, what are players going to do...bypass the game. Most P2W in the PvE part of a MMO is about bypassing the game, which leads you more quickly and better prepared to take part in PvP. Subs sell a game experience, if you want to keep having that experience you have to pay the sub.
The modern way of making a MMO is clearly raking the money in but the whole of gaming is facing the fact players don't want to play individual games as long as they used to. If you front load content and design a revenue structure which bypasses content that is is bound to happen.
The fact that people would go to 3rd party sites to get power leveled or just buy the best gear, shows players NEVER wanted to play a game as long they used to be forced to.
No it shows that some players were always prepared to cheat and still are. The fact players will buy pass story content in FF does not make them the sort of players who would use 3rd party sites.
Nothing you said counters what I said, Players NEVER liked the grind... Ever.
You should make a few more assumptions about a group of individuals; it will further strengthen your argument. As Scot said, cheaters and corner cutters have always existed and the current state of gaming catters to them. There is little, if any, correlation between grind/playtime and cash shop boosts/leveling services. While I am sure there are a few people who legitimately use those services because they have limited time, I think they are the minority. I, for one, want the grind and the time commitment because that is part of playing a game you really enjoy.
Oh I am sure that you, as in you directly, as a singular player, may have loved the grind.
Reality check, cash shops that bypass the grind would not be as popular as they are if you were not very much alone in loving the grind.
Once again, you are making faulty assumptions. Cash shops aren't popular, they are what is pushed in about 90% of games. Players use it because it's there (and because they are stupid/lazy). Cash shops, F2P, etc. are not prevalent because they are what players want, they exist because that's what the developers want.
Scot said: If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
With this in mind, know that you have never played a "Good MMO"
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
The difference of course being that old games were made by programmers and gamers who did some back of the napkin math and tossed $15 a month up as what they thought was a fair price for the game they were building. As opposed to today where there are literal departments of people who specialize in prying every penny from the players.
Something as simple as:
How big should the player's inventory be? In old games this was a design question around gameplay. Today, it is a question around what level of inventory restriction will become just annoying enough to prompt a small upgrade purchase in the cash shop.
Old school = make game fun so people want to play and will pay for access. New school = make a game fun, but parts of it annoying so that you will pay to remove those annoyances. So it in integrated into all aspects of the game.
So yeah.... as a business, every MMO had to have some thought to how they would make money... but old school and new school monetization are not even in the same ballpark and no, they were not "designed around" their income system in any but the most cursory fashion (ie. is it fun enough for people to pay each month).
Was it though? Was inventory space really about gameplay and not about money? One could argue that inventory space back in the day was limited to a certain amount to ensure the player had to come back to town to sell more often. Going back to town limited the amount of actual time killing things, and directly increased the amount of time needed to level, aka grind. It also meant that players would drop "worthless" items, resulting in a loss of gold that they would have, again increasing the amount of time needed to grind.
Increasing inventory space is a convenience for the players that will allow them to complete more of the game in less time and therefore a price tag has been put on that convenience.
Yes, it's a pretty weak argument, but so is the belief that devs 20-30 years ago were only thinking about gameplay. It is based on our desire to put old devs onto some sort of pedestal and honor them for only thinking about the gamers when in reality they too were just trying to make a buck.
The difference is that today… that act of dropping the items would result in less items to sell for “gold” that could be exchanged for “gems” or some other item bought it sold for cash. Then that touches on the numbers of “currencies “ introduced. One of my great frustrations with Lost Ark was the sheer amount of currencies you had to keep track of, earn or buy.
At the end of the day, gen 1 games made money by keeping players playing the game. They wanted you to stay subbed. Todays games make money by selling you ways to bypass the game.
IMHO it really is that simple. And I don’t think that has anything to do with putting certain developers on a pedestal. If anything, we have learned over this last decade of Crowdfunding that the old school devs can’t deliver in todays world.
It's not rocket science, if you sell ways to bypass the game, what are players going to do...bypass the game. Most P2W in the PvE part of a MMO is about bypassing the game, which leads you more quickly and better prepared to take part in PvP. Subs sell a game experience, if you want to keep having that experience you have to pay the sub.
The modern way of making a MMO is clearly raking the money in but the whole of gaming is facing the fact players don't want to play individual games as long as they used to. If you front load content and design a revenue structure which bypasses content that is is bound to happen.
The fact that people would go to 3rd party sites to get power leveled or just buy the best gear, shows players NEVER wanted to play a game as long they used to be forced to.
No it shows that some players were always prepared to cheat and still are. The fact players will buy pass story content in FF does not make them the sort of players who would use 3rd party sites.
Nothing you said counters what I said, Players NEVER liked the grind... Ever.
You should make a few more assumptions about a group of individuals; it will further strengthen your argument. As Scot said, cheaters and corner cutters have always existed and the current state of gaming catters to them. There is little, if any, correlation between grind/playtime and cash shop boosts/leveling services. While I am sure there are a few people who legitimately use those services because they have limited time, I think they are the minority. I, for one, want the grind and the time commitment because that is part of playing a game you really enjoy.
Oh I am sure that you, as in you directly, as a singular player, may have loved the grind.
Reality check, cash shops that bypass the grind would not be as popular as they are if you were not very much alone in loving the grind.
Once again, you are making faulty assumptions. Cash shops aren't popular, they are what is pushed in about 90% of games. Players use it because it's there (and because they are stupid/lazy). Cash shops, F2P, etc. are not prevalent because they are what players want, they exist because that's what the developers want.
Of course… and anyone who actually played these games could see that they do many things to make the grind as painful as possible so the $5 there and 50 gems there doesn’t seem so bad. Games today are TRYING to get us to pay them so we can skip parts of the game. Old school was trying to get us to pay to keep playing the game.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Can someone please come up with the formula to blend the best of old with the best of new and put it into high fantasy openworld. Thank you!
The best system, is still the Original Turbine Model, where you buy content in the form of DLC's/Adventure Packs, from the cash shop.
Best system ever, if you like the game, buy more of the game to play.
The game get funded by making more of the game, and you get more of the game you enjoy playing, everyone wins.
There is a danger to that.....There can be a point where you are buying everything....I remember in EQ it felt like they skimped on a few of the epansions and didnt give much for what we paid....I can easily see that with buying content....Hey dont put that content in this DLC, save it for a later one......Not so much in the MMOs, but in some of the single player games you can end up paying several hundred dollars buying DLCs.....
Can someone please come up with the formula to blend the best of old with the best of new and put it into high fantasy openworld. Thank you!
The best system, is still the Original Turbine Model, where you buy content in the form of DLC's/Adventure Packs, from the cash shop.
Best system ever, if you like the game, buy more of the game to play.
The game get funded by making more of the game, and you get more of the game you enjoy playing, everyone wins.
There is a danger to that.....There can be a point where you are buying everything....I remember in EQ it felt like they skimped on a few of the epansions and didnt give much for what we paid....I can easily see that with buying content....Hey dont put that content in this DLC, save it for a later one......Not so much in the MMOs, but in some of the single player games you can end up paying several hundred dollars buying DLCs.....
In DDO, a lot of players have all the packs, all the serious players at least. I mean, I own them all, because I figure, why not, it's an honest exchange, and I like supporting my hobbies.
Larger Packs, those packs with more quests, obviously cost more than packs with less quests, so it's not like a fixed cost per DLC, you are pretty much charged for what you get, which is how things should be.
There is also buying races, classes, and what have you, again, you buy what you want, no gimmicks, no RNG, no loot boxes, you like the game, you buy more of the game to play, simple and direct.
As far as cost. With Turbine, you can just pay a sub fee and get access to all the non-expansion content, most races, classes, and trees, as well as elite open, so if your patience is not there, it can be pretty cheap to get everything handed to you right from the get go.
When DDO went F2P, I paid the sub for my first year, because I was used to sub games, and felt that it was a good investment, and a lot of things were changing, and I was not sure how much longer I was going to be staying around, by my second year, I started to buy the packs, that was when I realized, I was going to playing this game for a while.
Yes, you will spend a few hundred buying the packs piecemeal over the years, but, how is that any worse than spending a few hundred on a sub free over the years.
With the buying content, if you take a break, you can just come back any time, stay as long or short as you like, and all you bought is still there, waiting for you to play it, with a sub, you need to spend money if you want to so much as log back in, regardless of how much you already spent.
Unlike RNG, Loot Boxes, or other means to drum up money, buying content makes it so that the majority of the players fund the game, like a sub would work, as opposed to depending on whales to buy endless crap.
Apparently.. getting whales to buy endless crap, was more attractive to the suits tho.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Can someone please come up with the formula to blend the best of old with the best of new and put it into high fantasy openworld. Thank you!
The best system, is still the Original Turbine Model, where you buy content in the form of DLC's/Adventure Packs, from the cash shop.
Best system ever, if you like the game, buy more of the game to play.
The game get funded by making more of the game, and you get more of the game you enjoy playing, everyone wins.
There is a danger to that.....There can be a point where you are buying everything....I remember in EQ it felt like they skimped on a few of the epansions and didnt give much for what we paid....I can easily see that with buying content....Hey dont put that content in this DLC, save it for a later one......Not so much in the MMOs, but in some of the single player games you can end up paying several hundred dollars buying DLCs.....
In DDO, a lot of players have all the packs, all the serious players at least. I mean, I own them all, because I figure, why not, it's an honest exchange, and I like supporting my hobbies.
Larger Packs, those packs with more quests, obviously cost more than packs with less quests, so it's not like a fixed cost per DLC, you are pretty much charged for what you get, which is how things should be.
There is also buying races, classes, and what have you, again, you buy what you want, no gimmicks, no RNG, no loot boxes, you like the game, you buy more of the game to play, simple and direct.
As far as cost. With Turbine, you can just pay a sub fee and get access to all the non-expansion content, most races, classes, and trees, as well as elite open, so if your patience is not there, it can be pretty cheap to get everything handed to you right from the get go.
When DDO went F2P, I paid the sub for my first year, because I was used to sub games, and felt that it was a good investment, and a lot of things were changing, and I was not sure how much longer I was going to be staying around, by my second year, I started to buy the packs, that was when I realized, I was going to playing this game for a while.
Yes, you will spend a few hundred buying the packs piecemeal over the years, but, how is that any worse than spending a few hundred on a sub free over the years.
With the buying content, if you take a break, you can just come back any time, stay as long or short as you like, and all you bought is still there, waiting for you to play it, with a sub, you need to spend money if you want to so much as log back in, regardless of how much you already spent.
Unlike RNG, Loot Boxes, or other means to drum up money, buying content makes it so that the majority of the players fund the game, like a sub would work, as opposed to depending on whales to buy endless crap.
Apparently.. getting whales to buy endless crap, was more attractive to the suits tho.
But of course, one reason life time subs weren't offered very often is the model makes no sense for the developer unless exorbitantly expensive, which few would buy then.
$300 or $400 for life? Pfft, nonsense, they are looking for customers willing drop hundreds year in and year out, otherwise the customer is just dead weight and not worth supporting.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
We have gone through a few reasons why modern MMOs (indeed games) can feel shallow and are being burned through so quickly by players. But most studios must realise this, they must be able to see how quickly players are jumping ship from modern games.
Having realised that they have decided to stay on their current course, it is almost like a rat race mentality, they think they simply cannot afford to do anything else.
“Yes, you will spend a few hundred buying the packs piecemeal over the years, but, how is that any worse than spending a few hundred on a sub free over the years.”
The difference of course is that an all inclusive sub would give you all content from day 1 but the piecemeal option would limit you until you “spend a few hundred buying the packs”
The absolute worst part of Turbine’s sub was that it wasn’t all-inclusive. It meant that you were paying a sub AND spending money buying store stuff so it wasn’t either-or like you suggest. Yes you got “store points” with your sub but look at how many you’d need to get the “complete” game… ROFL. Plus the typical shop stuff like character slots, bag space, etc…
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
The thing that pisses me off is the amount of non-stacklable items, character bound items that could just as easily be roster bound, plus the amount of gold you obtain tied to RNG whihc you need for other RNG mechanics. LA does not respect your time at all end game. I hit iLevel 1355 and the game took a big dump.
Reality check, cash shops that bypass the grind would not be as popular as they are if you were not very much alone in loving the grind.
Best system ever, if you like the game, buy more of the game to play.
The game get funded by making more of the game, and you get more of the game you enjoy playing, everyone wins.
I only make factual statements and if you disagree you're just a Russian disinformation bot.
Seriously, I loved old school grind and hate new school grind. People used third party sites to get ahead of other people, not because they didn't like the grind but because they liked being better than everyone else.
People used leveling services in SWG and WoW, then complained when their accounts got stolen along with credit card info. It wasn't widespread, though it was funny when it happened to someone from an opposing faction.
But.. I am sure no one paused to consider that, as they spouted their 100% cannot be wrong absolute factual opinions, where anyone that disagreed with them was a Nazi Russian Disinformation Bot.
Perhaps it all comes down to, best for who?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Which often does not equate to being the best system for greedy ass cooperation's.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
There is a danger to that.....There can be a point where you are buying everything....I remember in EQ it felt like they skimped on a few of the epansions and didnt give much for what we paid....I can easily see that with buying content....Hey dont put that content in this DLC, save it for a later one......Not so much in the MMOs, but in some of the single player games you can end up paying several hundred dollars buying DLCs.....
In DDO, a lot of players have all the packs, all the serious players at least. I mean, I own them all, because I figure, why not, it's an honest exchange, and I like supporting my hobbies.
Larger Packs, those packs with more quests, obviously cost more than packs with less quests, so it's not like a fixed cost per DLC, you are pretty much charged for what you get, which is how things should be.
There is also buying races, classes, and what have you, again, you buy what you want, no gimmicks, no RNG, no loot boxes, you like the game, you buy more of the game to play, simple and direct.
As far as cost. With Turbine, you can just pay a sub fee and get access to all the non-expansion content, most races, classes, and trees, as well as elite open, so if your patience is not there, it can be pretty cheap to get everything handed to you right from the get go.
When DDO went F2P, I paid the sub for my first year, because I was used to sub games, and felt that it was a good investment, and a lot of things were changing, and I was not sure how much longer I was going to be staying around, by my second year, I started to buy the packs, that was when I realized, I was going to playing this game for a while.
Yes, you will spend a few hundred buying the packs piecemeal over the years, but, how is that any worse than spending a few hundred on a sub free over the years.
With the buying content, if you take a break, you can just come back any time, stay as long or short as you like, and all you bought is still there, waiting for you to play it, with a sub, you need to spend money if you want to so much as log back in, regardless of how much you already spent.
Unlike RNG, Loot Boxes, or other means to drum up money, buying content makes it so that the majority of the players fund the game, like a sub would work, as opposed to depending on whales to buy endless crap.
Apparently.. getting whales to buy endless crap, was more attractive to the suits tho.
$300 or $400 for life? Pfft, nonsense, they are looking for customers willing drop hundreds year in and year out, otherwise the customer is just dead weight and not worth supporting.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Having realised that they have decided to stay on their current course, it is almost like a rat race mentality, they think they simply cannot afford to do anything else.
The absolute worst part of Turbine’s sub was that it wasn’t all-inclusive. It meant that you were paying a sub AND spending money buying store stuff so it wasn’t either-or like you suggest. Yes you got “store points” with your sub but look at how many you’d need to get the “complete” game… ROFL. Plus the typical shop stuff like character slots, bag space, etc…
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018