Scot said: If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
With this in mind, know that you have never played a "Good MMO"
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
Once upon a time the only path to profit for providers was the game itself and it's ability to draw and retain players. The focus was on making the game good out of necessity.
That singularity was broken when considerable revenue could be earned from other than providing the best game they possibly could, allowing the focus of providers to wander.
The game being the product, and it's ability to entice and retain players has never changed.
These companies are (for the most part) not selling something other than the game itself, even if they have parts of it in the cash shop. While yes, some of them do sell merchandise outside the game, I think that dates back to EQ with the selling of figurines so that has no bearing on Sub/F2P.
Harsh truth is, both styles of games depend on their players being invested into the game they are playing, players that don't give a shit about the game they are playing, are not going to be the ones that are putting money into it, simple as that.
So any dreamy starry eyed bullshit about game design and purity, is just that.. bullshit.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Harsh truth is, both styles of games depend on their players being invested into the game they are playing, players that don't give a shit about the game they are playing, are not going to be the ones that are putting money into it, simple as that.
So any dreamy starry eyed bullshit about game design and purity, is just that.. bullshit.
Again.. that is wrong.
Old school games were focused on making you PLAY more. New school is about selling ways to BYPASS game mechanics.
As for the first part... every player in an old school game paid the same amount. So ALL players created the same revenue (not counting multiple accounts). That is FAR from the truth today.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
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The difference is that today… that act of dropping the items would result in less items to sell for “gold” that could be exchanged for “gems” or some other item bought it sold for cash. Then that touches on the numbers of “currencies “ introduced. One of my great frustrations with Lost Ark was the sheer amount of currencies you had to keep track of, earn or buy.
At the end of the day, gen 1 games made money by keeping players playing the game. They wanted you to stay subbed. Todays games make money by selling you ways to bypass the game.
IMHO it really is that simple. And I don’t think that has anything to do with putting certain developers on a pedestal. If anything, we have learned over this last decade of Crowdfunding that the old school devs can’t deliver in todays world.
The cash shop currency schemes alone show that subs were a more consumer-friendly method. Less was hidden in the monetization.
The newer MMO's and games in general are much more fluid and fast paced.
The reason why I struggle getting back into EverQuest II each time, is that I just get immediately bored logging into my old Paladin character and spend 10 mins killing even the most menial quests mobs.
In old MMO's, every little thing seems a time sink, even killing basic quest mobs. This is especially true for tank / healer classes, which get really punished in DPS in these older MMO's.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
***** BROADCAST MESSAGE: @Kyleran has won an Radiant Apex Golden Throbbing Unicorn of Fate from a Sylvan Spring crate. Grats @Kyleran! *****
...jump around several MMOs.
Have you played Neverwinter, BTW?
Boy, that brought back memories of a lot of MMO's that I quit day 1.
Yah, I played Neverwinter, kinda sucked IMHO, I only played it long enough to get to 20th, so I could play with the foundry, hated every damn level up.
Neverwinter was actually the first I ever played where I saw top loot crate rewards when they happened sent out as zone-wide (game-wide?) broadcast messages. I seem to recall that the item name was a hyperlink that gave you 3D view of whatever it was.
I also wasn't there long, just a week or two during "beta" so I have no idea if those obnoxious broadcasts are still a thing. They probably conditioned whoever stuck around to think of them as neither annoying, obtrusive nor tacky.
My memory may be undermining me here, but I think I remember PWI having some kind of similar global announcements for characters won/bought something. It was beyond annoying.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I'm going to write a video game that will send your browser history to your mother unless you make a cash shop purchase.
So you are the person who sends me all those blackmail emails trying to get me to pay them $ 998.96 in Bitcoin or they'll send my browser history to everyone on my email DL list, I knew it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Scot said: If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
With this in mind, know that you have never played a "Good MMO"
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
The difference of course being that old games were made by programmers and gamers who did some back of the napkin math and tossed $15 a month up as what they thought was a fair price for the game they were building. As opposed to today where there are literal departments of people who specialize in prying every penny from the players.
Something as simple as:
How big should the player's inventory be? In old games this was a design question around gameplay. Today, it is a question around what level of inventory restriction will become just annoying enough to prompt a small upgrade purchase in the cash shop.
Old school = make game fun so people want to play and will pay for access. New school = make a game fun, but parts of it annoying so that you will pay to remove those annoyances. So it in integrated into all aspects of the game.
So yeah.... as a business, every MMO had to have some thought to how they would make money... but old school and new school monetization are not even in the same ballpark and no, they were not "designed around" their income system in any but the most cursory fashion (ie. is it fun enough for people to pay each month).
Was it though? Was inventory space really about gameplay and not about money? One could argue that inventory space back in the day was limited to a certain amount to ensure the player had to come back to town to sell more often. Going back to town limited the amount of actual time killing things, and directly increased the amount of time needed to level, aka grind. It also meant that players would drop "worthless" items, resulting in a loss of gold that they would have, again increasing the amount of time needed to grind.
Increasing inventory space is a convenience for the players that will allow them to complete more of the game in less time and therefore a price tag has been put on that convenience.
Yes, it's a pretty weak argument, but so is the belief that devs 20-30 years ago were only thinking about gameplay. It is based on our desire to put old devs onto some sort of pedestal and honor them for only thinking about the gamers when in reality they too were just trying to make a buck.
The difference is that today… that act of dropping the items would result in less items to sell for “gold” that could be exchanged for “gems” or some other item bought it sold for cash. Then that touches on the numbers of “currencies “ introduced. One of my great frustrations with Lost Ark was the sheer amount of currencies you had to keep track of, earn or buy.
At the end of the day, gen 1 games made money by keeping players playing the game. They wanted you to stay subbed. Todays games make money by selling you ways to bypass the game.
IMHO it really is that simple. And I don’t think that has anything to do with putting certain developers on a pedestal. If anything, we have learned over this last decade of Crowdfunding that the old school devs can’t deliver in todays world.
It's not rocket science, if you sell ways to bypass the game, what are players going to do...bypass the game. Most P2W in the PvE part of a MMO is about bypassing the game, which leads you more quickly and better prepared to take part in PvP. Subs sell a game experience, if you want to keep having that experience you have to pay the sub.
The modern way of making a MMO is clearly raking the money in but the whole of gaming is facing the fact players don't want to play individual games as long as they used to. If you front load content and design a revenue structure which bypasses content that is is bound to happen.
Scot said: If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
With this in mind, know that you have never played a "Good MMO"
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
The difference of course being that old games were made by programmers and gamers who did some back of the napkin math and tossed $15 a month up as what they thought was a fair price for the game they were building. As opposed to today where there are literal departments of people who specialize in prying every penny from the players.
Something as simple as:
How big should the player's inventory be? In old games this was a design question around gameplay. Today, it is a question around what level of inventory restriction will become just annoying enough to prompt a small upgrade purchase in the cash shop.
Old school = make game fun so people want to play and will pay for access. New school = make a game fun, but parts of it annoying so that you will pay to remove those annoyances. So it in integrated into all aspects of the game.
So yeah.... as a business, every MMO had to have some thought to how they would make money... but old school and new school monetization are not even in the same ballpark and no, they were not "designed around" their income system in any but the most cursory fashion (ie. is it fun enough for people to pay each month).
Was it though? Was inventory space really about gameplay and not about money? One could argue that inventory space back in the day was limited to a certain amount to ensure the player had to come back to town to sell more often. Going back to town limited the amount of actual time killing things, and directly increased the amount of time needed to level, aka grind. It also meant that players would drop "worthless" items, resulting in a loss of gold that they would have, again increasing the amount of time needed to grind.
Increasing inventory space is a convenience for the players that will allow them to complete more of the game in less time and therefore a price tag has been put on that convenience.
Yes, it's a pretty weak argument, but so is the belief that devs 20-30 years ago were only thinking about gameplay. It is based on our desire to put old devs onto some sort of pedestal and honor them for only thinking about the gamers when in reality they too were just trying to make a buck.
The difference is that today… that act of dropping the items would result in less items to sell for “gold” that could be exchanged for “gems” or some other item bought it sold for cash. Then that touches on the numbers of “currencies “ introduced. One of my great frustrations with Lost Ark was the sheer amount of currencies you had to keep track of, earn or buy.
At the end of the day, gen 1 games made money by keeping players playing the game. They wanted you to stay subbed. Todays games make money by selling you ways to bypass the game.
IMHO it really is that simple. And I don’t think that has anything to do with putting certain developers on a pedestal. If anything, we have learned over this last decade of Crowdfunding that the old school devs can’t deliver in todays world.
It's not rocket science, if you sell ways to bypass the game, what are players going to do...bypass the game. Most P2W in the PvE part of a MMO is about bypassing the game, which leads you more quickly and better prepared to take part in PvP. Subs sell a game experience, if you want to keep having that experience you have to pay the sub.
The modern way of making a MMO is clearly raking the money in but the whole of gaming is facing the fact players don't want to play individual games as long as they used to. If you front load content and design a revenue structure which bypasses content that is is bound to happen.
The fact that people would go to 3rd party sites to get power leveled or just buy the best gear, shows players NEVER wanted to play a game as long they used to be forced to.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I'm going to write a video game that will send your browser history to your mother unless you make a cash shop purchase.
So you are the person who sends me all those blackmail emails trying to get me to pay them $ 998.96 in Bitcoin or they'll send my browser history to everyone on my email DL list, I knew it.
It's easy to guess your browser history.
Cats, cats, cats, stuff, cats, MMO, cats.
edit: "stuff" is mostly cat food, cat litter, and CATNIP!
Scot said: If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
With this in mind, know that you have never played a "Good MMO"
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
The difference of course being that old games were made by programmers and gamers who did some back of the napkin math and tossed $15 a month up as what they thought was a fair price for the game they were building. As opposed to today where there are literal departments of people who specialize in prying every penny from the players.
Something as simple as:
How big should the player's inventory be? In old games this was a design question around gameplay. Today, it is a question around what level of inventory restriction will become just annoying enough to prompt a small upgrade purchase in the cash shop.
Old school = make game fun so people want to play and will pay for access. New school = make a game fun, but parts of it annoying so that you will pay to remove those annoyances. So it in integrated into all aspects of the game.
So yeah.... as a business, every MMO had to have some thought to how they would make money... but old school and new school monetization are not even in the same ballpark and no, they were not "designed around" their income system in any but the most cursory fashion (ie. is it fun enough for people to pay each month).
Was it though? Was inventory space really about gameplay and not about money? One could argue that inventory space back in the day was limited to a certain amount to ensure the player had to come back to town to sell more often. Going back to town limited the amount of actual time killing things, and directly increased the amount of time needed to level, aka grind. It also meant that players would drop "worthless" items, resulting in a loss of gold that they would have, again increasing the amount of time needed to grind.
Increasing inventory space is a convenience for the players that will allow them to complete more of the game in less time and therefore a price tag has been put on that convenience.
Yes, it's a pretty weak argument, but so is the belief that devs 20-30 years ago were only thinking about gameplay. It is based on our desire to put old devs onto some sort of pedestal and honor them for only thinking about the gamers when in reality they too were just trying to make a buck.
The difference is that today… that act of dropping the items would result in less items to sell for “gold” that could be exchanged for “gems” or some other item bought it sold for cash. Then that touches on the numbers of “currencies “ introduced. One of my great frustrations with Lost Ark was the sheer amount of currencies you had to keep track of, earn or buy.
At the end of the day, gen 1 games made money by keeping players playing the game. They wanted you to stay subbed. Todays games make money by selling you ways to bypass the game.
IMHO it really is that simple. And I don’t think that has anything to do with putting certain developers on a pedestal. If anything, we have learned over this last decade of Crowdfunding that the old school devs can’t deliver in todays world.
It's not rocket science, if you sell ways to bypass the game, what are players going to do...bypass the game. Most P2W in the PvE part of a MMO is about bypassing the game, which leads you more quickly and better prepared to take part in PvP. Subs sell a game experience, if you want to keep having that experience you have to pay the sub.
The modern way of making a MMO is clearly raking the money in but the whole of gaming is facing the fact players don't want to play individual games as long as they used to. If you front load content and design a revenue structure which bypasses content that is is bound to happen.
The fact that people would go to 3rd party sites to get power leveled or just buy the best gear, shows players NEVER wanted to play a game as long they used to be forced to.
No it shows that some players were always prepared to cheat and still are. The fact players will buy pass story content in FF does not make them the sort of players who would use 3rd party sites.
Scot said: If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
With this in mind, know that you have never played a "Good MMO"
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
The difference of course being that old games were made by programmers and gamers who did some back of the napkin math and tossed $15 a month up as what they thought was a fair price for the game they were building. As opposed to today where there are literal departments of people who specialize in prying every penny from the players.
Something as simple as:
How big should the player's inventory be? In old games this was a design question around gameplay. Today, it is a question around what level of inventory restriction will become just annoying enough to prompt a small upgrade purchase in the cash shop.
Old school = make game fun so people want to play and will pay for access. New school = make a game fun, but parts of it annoying so that you will pay to remove those annoyances. So it in integrated into all aspects of the game.
So yeah.... as a business, every MMO had to have some thought to how they would make money... but old school and new school monetization are not even in the same ballpark and no, they were not "designed around" their income system in any but the most cursory fashion (ie. is it fun enough for people to pay each month).
Was it though? Was inventory space really about gameplay and not about money? One could argue that inventory space back in the day was limited to a certain amount to ensure the player had to come back to town to sell more often. Going back to town limited the amount of actual time killing things, and directly increased the amount of time needed to level, aka grind. It also meant that players would drop "worthless" items, resulting in a loss of gold that they would have, again increasing the amount of time needed to grind.
Increasing inventory space is a convenience for the players that will allow them to complete more of the game in less time and therefore a price tag has been put on that convenience.
Yes, it's a pretty weak argument, but so is the belief that devs 20-30 years ago were only thinking about gameplay. It is based on our desire to put old devs onto some sort of pedestal and honor them for only thinking about the gamers when in reality they too were just trying to make a buck.
The difference is that today… that act of dropping the items would result in less items to sell for “gold” that could be exchanged for “gems” or some other item bought it sold for cash. Then that touches on the numbers of “currencies “ introduced. One of my great frustrations with Lost Ark was the sheer amount of currencies you had to keep track of, earn or buy.
At the end of the day, gen 1 games made money by keeping players playing the game. They wanted you to stay subbed. Todays games make money by selling you ways to bypass the game.
IMHO it really is that simple. And I don’t think that has anything to do with putting certain developers on a pedestal. If anything, we have learned over this last decade of Crowdfunding that the old school devs can’t deliver in todays world.
It's not rocket science, if you sell ways to bypass the game, what are players going to do...bypass the game. Most P2W in the PvE part of a MMO is about bypassing the game, which leads you more quickly and better prepared to take part in PvP. Subs sell a game experience, if you want to keep having that experience you have to pay the sub.
The modern way of making a MMO is clearly raking the money in but the whole of gaming is facing the fact players don't want to play individual games as long as they used to. If you front load content and design a revenue structure which bypasses content that is is bound to happen.
The fact that people would go to 3rd party sites to get power leveled or just buy the best gear, shows players NEVER wanted to play a game as long they used to be forced to.
No it shows that some players were always prepared to cheat and still are. The fact players will buy pass story content in FF does not make them the sort of players who would use 3rd party sites.
Nothing you said counters what I said, Players NEVER liked the grind... Ever.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Scot said: If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
With this in mind, know that you have never played a "Good MMO"
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
The difference of course being that old games were made by programmers and gamers who did some back of the napkin math and tossed $15 a month up as what they thought was a fair price for the game they were building. As opposed to today where there are literal departments of people who specialize in prying every penny from the players.
Something as simple as:
How big should the player's inventory be? In old games this was a design question around gameplay. Today, it is a question around what level of inventory restriction will become just annoying enough to prompt a small upgrade purchase in the cash shop.
Old school = make game fun so people want to play and will pay for access. New school = make a game fun, but parts of it annoying so that you will pay to remove those annoyances. So it in integrated into all aspects of the game.
So yeah.... as a business, every MMO had to have some thought to how they would make money... but old school and new school monetization are not even in the same ballpark and no, they were not "designed around" their income system in any but the most cursory fashion (ie. is it fun enough for people to pay each month).
Was it though? Was inventory space really about gameplay and not about money? One could argue that inventory space back in the day was limited to a certain amount to ensure the player had to come back to town to sell more often. Going back to town limited the amount of actual time killing things, and directly increased the amount of time needed to level, aka grind. It also meant that players would drop "worthless" items, resulting in a loss of gold that they would have, again increasing the amount of time needed to grind.
Increasing inventory space is a convenience for the players that will allow them to complete more of the game in less time and therefore a price tag has been put on that convenience.
Yes, it's a pretty weak argument, but so is the belief that devs 20-30 years ago were only thinking about gameplay. It is based on our desire to put old devs onto some sort of pedestal and honor them for only thinking about the gamers when in reality they too were just trying to make a buck.
The difference is that today… that act of dropping the items would result in less items to sell for “gold” that could be exchanged for “gems” or some other item bought it sold for cash. Then that touches on the numbers of “currencies “ introduced. One of my great frustrations with Lost Ark was the sheer amount of currencies you had to keep track of, earn or buy.
At the end of the day, gen 1 games made money by keeping players playing the game. They wanted you to stay subbed. Todays games make money by selling you ways to bypass the game.
IMHO it really is that simple. And I don’t think that has anything to do with putting certain developers on a pedestal. If anything, we have learned over this last decade of Crowdfunding that the old school devs can’t deliver in todays world.
It's not rocket science, if you sell ways to bypass the game, what are players going to do...bypass the game. Most P2W in the PvE part of a MMO is about bypassing the game, which leads you more quickly and better prepared to take part in PvP. Subs sell a game experience, if you want to keep having that experience you have to pay the sub.
The modern way of making a MMO is clearly raking the money in but the whole of gaming is facing the fact players don't want to play individual games as long as they used to. If you front load content and design a revenue structure which bypasses content that is is bound to happen.
The fact that people would go to 3rd party sites to get power leveled or just buy the best gear, shows players NEVER wanted to play a game as long they used to be forced to.
No it shows that some players were always prepared to cheat and still are. The fact players will buy pass story content in FF does not make them the sort of players who would use 3rd party sites.
Nothing you said counters what I said, Players NEVER liked the grind... Ever.
Actually, not true. In DAOC I played for years doing the grind. What made it fun was teaming up with friends. Same thing in Ryzom. Again, no quests, just pure grind. And did it for fun for years because of friends.
Half the fun back then was teaming with friends. We'd go camp a spot, and grind away. Talking and having fun the whole time.
Scot said: If you allow any factor other than good game design to be the basis of how you make a MMO, you can't expect the MMO to become a better game.
With this in mind, know that you have never played a "Good MMO"
Every... Single.. One.. Of them was designed around their income system.
The difference of course being that old games were made by programmers and gamers who did some back of the napkin math and tossed $15 a month up as what they thought was a fair price for the game they were building. As opposed to today where there are literal departments of people who specialize in prying every penny from the players.
Something as simple as:
How big should the player's inventory be? In old games this was a design question around gameplay. Today, it is a question around what level of inventory restriction will become just annoying enough to prompt a small upgrade purchase in the cash shop.
Old school = make game fun so people want to play and will pay for access. New school = make a game fun, but parts of it annoying so that you will pay to remove those annoyances. So it in integrated into all aspects of the game.
So yeah.... as a business, every MMO had to have some thought to how they would make money... but old school and new school monetization are not even in the same ballpark and no, they were not "designed around" their income system in any but the most cursory fashion (ie. is it fun enough for people to pay each month).
Was it though? Was inventory space really about gameplay and not about money? One could argue that inventory space back in the day was limited to a certain amount to ensure the player had to come back to town to sell more often. Going back to town limited the amount of actual time killing things, and directly increased the amount of time needed to level, aka grind. It also meant that players would drop "worthless" items, resulting in a loss of gold that they would have, again increasing the amount of time needed to grind.
Increasing inventory space is a convenience for the players that will allow them to complete more of the game in less time and therefore a price tag has been put on that convenience.
Yes, it's a pretty weak argument, but so is the belief that devs 20-30 years ago were only thinking about gameplay. It is based on our desire to put old devs onto some sort of pedestal and honor them for only thinking about the gamers when in reality they too were just trying to make a buck.
The difference is that today… that act of dropping the items would result in less items to sell for “gold” that could be exchanged for “gems” or some other item bought it sold for cash. Then that touches on the numbers of “currencies “ introduced. One of my great frustrations with Lost Ark was the sheer amount of currencies you had to keep track of, earn or buy.
At the end of the day, gen 1 games made money by keeping players playing the game. They wanted you to stay subbed. Todays games make money by selling you ways to bypass the game.
IMHO it really is that simple. And I don’t think that has anything to do with putting certain developers on a pedestal. If anything, we have learned over this last decade of Crowdfunding that the old school devs can’t deliver in todays world.
It's not rocket science, if you sell ways to bypass the game, what are players going to do...bypass the game. Most P2W in the PvE part of a MMO is about bypassing the game, which leads you more quickly and better prepared to take part in PvP. Subs sell a game experience, if you want to keep having that experience you have to pay the sub.
The modern way of making a MMO is clearly raking the money in but the whole of gaming is facing the fact players don't want to play individual games as long as they used to. If you front load content and design a revenue structure which bypasses content that is is bound to happen.
The fact that people would go to 3rd party sites to get power leveled or just buy the best gear, shows players NEVER wanted to play a game as long they used to be forced to.
No it shows that some players were always prepared to cheat and still are. The fact players will buy pass story content in FF does not make them the sort of players who would use 3rd party sites.
Nothing you said counters what I said, Players NEVER liked the grind... Ever.
Actually, not true. In DAOC I played for years doing the grind. What made it fun was teaming up with friends. Same thing in Ryzom. Again, no quests, just pure grind. And did it for fun for years because of friends.
Half the fun back then was teaming with friends. We'd go camp a spot, and grind away. Talking and having fun the whole time.
In the end, I can accept some grind if I'm cooperating with others, because I accept that it's the nature of the genre. The scale precludes the sort of content cadence that would keep serving up modern-quality fresh content monthly, or even quarterly.
But I feel no desire to do so solo for 70-90% of the journey. I get it's all wasting time playing games, but if I'm going to play it solo, there are other games with far more exciting moment to moment solo gameplay.
Ungood said:Nothing you said counters what I said, Players NEVER liked the grind... Ever.
Actually, not true. In DAOC I played for years doing the grind. What made it fun was teaming up with friends. Same thing in Ryzom. Again, no quests, just pure grind. And did it for fun for years because of friends.
Half the fun back then was teaming with friends. We'd go camp a spot, and grind away. Talking and having fun the whole time.
Correction: All the Fun was teaming with friends.
Take that away, and all have left is a boring as shit grindfest of a game.
Which is why players can't get that "Old School" feel again.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Ungood said:Nothing you said counters what I said, Players NEVER liked the grind... Ever.
Actually, not true. In DAOC I played for years doing the grind. What made it fun was teaming up with friends. Same thing in Ryzom. Again, no quests, just pure grind. And did it for fun for years because of friends.
Half the fun back then was teaming with friends. We'd go camp a spot, and grind away. Talking and having fun the whole time.
Correction: All the Fun was teaming with friends.
Take that away, and all have left is a boring as shit grindfest of a game.
Which is why players can't get that "Old School" feel again.
Still not entirely true. In Ryzom, I used to light up a cigar, pop open a beer, put on some music, and ride out on my mount with a packer in tow, to spend hours digging mats. Alone.
I mostly agree though; today most people seem to want to speed-rush through missions, with little or no talking and no group-friends feel.
Ungood said:Nothing you said counters what I said, Players NEVER liked the grind... Ever.
Actually, not true. In DAOC I played for years doing the grind. What made it fun was teaming up with friends. Same thing in Ryzom. Again, no quests, just pure grind. And did it for fun for years because of friends.
Half the fun back then was teaming with friends. We'd go camp a spot, and grind away. Talking and having fun the whole time.
Correction: All the Fun was teaming with friends.
Take that away, and all have left is a boring as shit grindfest of a game.
Which is why players can't get that "Old School" feel again.
Still not entirely true. In Ryzom, I used to light up a cigar, pop open a beer, put on some music, and ride out on my mount with a packer in tow, to spend hours digging mats. Alone.
I mostly agree though; today most people seem to want to speed-rush through missions, with little or no talking and no group-friends feel.
Yeah, but that is Ryzom you are talking about, which was/still is absolutely bloody amazing. One of my favorite MMORPGs ever, every single other game world just doesn’t compare.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Ungood said:Nothing you said counters what I said, Players NEVER liked the grind... Ever.
Actually, not true. In DAOC I played for years doing the grind. What made it fun was teaming up with friends. Same thing in Ryzom. Again, no quests, just pure grind. And did it for fun for years because of friends.
Half the fun back then was teaming with friends. We'd go camp a spot, and grind away. Talking and having fun the whole time.
Correction: All the Fun was teaming with friends.
Take that away, and all have left is a boring as shit grindfest of a game.
Which is why players can't get that "Old School" feel again.
Still not entirely true. In Ryzom, I used to light up a cigar, pop open a beer, put on some music, and ride out on my mount with a packer in tow, to spend hours digging mats. Alone.
I mostly agree though; today most people seem to want to speed-rush through missions, with little or no talking and no group-friends feel.
I want the opposite: give me a deeper RPG combat system with more synergies and, yes, even some interdependencies, with a hyper focus on facilitating communal groups that can consistently cooperate to progress.
One of the biggest reason even D&D tabletop was popular was because of the social aspect. Without friends, it was more fun to play Legend of Zelda instead. I see a lot of the same in MMORPGs. Without the social part, they're just not as fun as other experiences.
Ungood said:Nothing you said counters what I said, Players NEVER liked the grind... Ever.
Actually, not true. In DAOC I played for years doing the grind. What made it fun was teaming up with friends. Same thing in Ryzom. Again, no quests, just pure grind. And did it for fun for years because of friends.
Half the fun back then was teaming with friends. We'd go camp a spot, and grind away. Talking and having fun the whole time.
Correction: All the Fun was teaming with friends.
Take that away, and all have left is a boring as shit grindfest of a game.
Which is why players can't get that "Old School" feel again.
Still not entirely true. In Ryzom, I used to light up a cigar, pop open a beer, put on some music, and ride out on my mount with a packer in tow, to spend hours digging mats. Alone.
I mostly agree though; today most people seem to want to speed-rush through missions, with little or no talking and no group-friends feel.
There's something very cool about Ryzom. An austere solitude, you could hear the wind howling and see the animals all interacting with each other as well as the player.
I've downloaded the game a few times just for that experience.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
The modern mmorpg.
These companies are (for the most part) not selling something other than the game itself, even if they have parts of it in the cash shop. While yes, some of them do sell merchandise outside the game, I think that dates back to EQ with the selling of figurines so that has no bearing on Sub/F2P.
Harsh truth is, both styles of games depend on their players being invested into the game they are playing, players that don't give a shit about the game they are playing, are not going to be the ones that are putting money into it, simple as that.
So any dreamy starry eyed bullshit about game design and purity, is just that.. bullshit.
Old school games were focused on making you PLAY more.
New school is about selling ways to BYPASS game mechanics.
As for the first part... every player in an old school game paid the same amount. So ALL players created the same revenue (not counting multiple accounts). That is FAR from the truth today.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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eq2 lvling is a joke thank to mercenaries.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The modern way of making a MMO is clearly raking the money in but the whole of gaming is facing the fact players don't want to play individual games as long as they used to. If you front load content and design a revenue structure which bypasses content that is is bound to happen.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
But I feel no desire to do so solo for 70-90% of the journey. I get it's all wasting time playing games, but if I'm going to play it solo, there are other games with far more exciting moment to moment solo gameplay.
Take that away, and all have left is a boring as shit grindfest of a game.
Which is why players can't get that "Old School" feel again.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
One of the biggest reason even D&D tabletop was popular was because of the social aspect. Without friends, it was more fun to play Legend of Zelda instead. I see a lot of the same in MMORPGs. Without the social part, they're just not as fun as other experiences.
I've downloaded the game a few times just for that experience.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo