I'm not really sure what you are talking about with endgame raiding. I agree with everything you've written and have posted similar things in the past - though my focus was on the value endgame players add to the community. I can't see anything in my post that disagrees with you r.e. raiding.
As for WoW being known for endgame raiding, I agree, but that's not what supported the game and made it popular, that was simply the most visible part. the overwhelming majority of their millions of subscribers never even set foot in a raid.
Maybe I am misinterpreting your point here. What I thought you were saying is that End Game raiding wasnt a big part of what makes WoW popular. I was simply making a point that just because people dont all do end game raiding doesnt mean the game would still be popular without it. The entire package is needed for popularity IMO. End game is what the core is trying to get to, without it many people wouldnt even bother to start in the first place.
Also on your critical mass theory, I dont think we are in conflict. I agree with you on that, was just pointing out that critical mass can be both positive AND negative to a game.
I'd have to look back some years, but I remember it coming up that raiding only really constituted 20% of the active player base at endgame at any given time, and an even smaller gap for who was running the most current ones.
I do think that having raid type content is useful for that corner of the userbase, but it's also the misnomer that WoW fell into and contributed directly to it's loss of user retention when the cycle began focusing too much on raids as "the" endgame content.
Though that does go to say, they lost sight of "the total package".
Lurker who has been here quite awhile, almost as long as OP.
Generally browse here every few days and read comments.
According to posters here every single game just sucks, that's why this place is dead. It's impossible to believe anyone here or what they post, every game isn't terrible, there aren't any fair posts, it's one extreme or another.
I think people needed to be less jaded when they approach every new MMO with comments.
what recent MMO do you think is so amazing? I am curious which recent MMO you pick that hasnt lost over 99% of its playerbase or shut down. This site is just a reflection of the overall MMO community. If anything you have a ton of fanbois on here, way more than what the user reviews show. Just go back to Diablo Immortal. Has a .3 rating on Metacritic but here during its release we had a bunch of fanbois praising it.
New World is another, we had so many fanbois on this site praising that game, while that game was losing 99.9% of its players.
I am really surprised you said New World sold 25 million copies. I think you said base on steam chart it only have 50000 players. But that is concurrent players. The monthly players you need to times by roughly 20 to get an estimatees. That is roughly 1 million players.
I think you are expecting too much. Ultima Online at it's peak have 250,000 players. But the concurrent players are probably only at 12k. So base on Steam charts how can you say 30k concurrent daily peak players is bad?
If you look at games like Lost ark it have 100,000 concurrent players. That is roughly 2 million monthly players. And that dont' even include the amount of players that don't play on Steam(mostly asians). Granted lost ark is arguable an ARPG instead of MMORPG. Or if you look at FF14's steam counts. 37,000 concurrent players. So you get close to 750k FF14 players on steam. And many people actually don't play on steam.
Or if you look at the mobile mmolist. Games like lineage M made 4 billion dollars over several years.
Or even old time games like Runescape or Eve is still going strong.
I think the reality is just like you said. Only a handful of MMORPG actually manage to survive. But if you just look at the numbers people are still playing MMORPG. And probably even more than before.
Lurker who has been here quite awhile, almost as long as OP.
Generally browse here every few days and read comments.
According to posters here every single game just sucks, that's why this place is dead. It's impossible to believe anyone here or what they post, every game isn't terrible, there aren't any fair posts, it's one extreme or another.
I think people needed to be less jaded when they approach every new MMO with comments.
what recent MMO do you think is so amazing? I am curious which recent MMO you pick that hasnt lost over 99% of its playerbase or shut down. This site is just a reflection of the overall MMO community. If anything you have a ton of fanbois on here, way more than what the user reviews show. Just go back to Diablo Immortal. Has a .3 rating on Metacritic but here during its release we had a bunch of fanbois praising it.
New World is another, we had so many fanbois on this site praising that game, while that game was losing 99.9% of its players.
I am really surprised you said New World sold 25 million copies. I think you said base on steam chart it only have 50000 players. But that is concurrent players. The monthly players you need to times by roughly 20 to get an estimatees. That is roughly 1 million players.
I think you are expecting too much. Ultima Online at it's peak have 250,000 players. But the concurrent players are probably only at 12k. So base on Steam charts how can you say 30k concurrent daily peak players is bad?
If you look at games like Lost ark it have 100,000 concurrent players. That is roughly 2 million monthly players. And that dont' even include the amount of players that don't play on Steam(mostly asians). Granted lost ark is arguable an ARPG instead of MMORPG. Or if you look at FF14's steam counts. 37,000 concurrent players. So you get close to 750k FF14 players on steam. And many people actually don't play on steam.
Or if you look at the mobile mmolist. Games like lineage M made 4 billion dollars over several years.
Or even old time games like Runescape or Eve is still going strong.
I think the reality is just like you said. Only a handful of MMORPG actually manage to survive. But if you just look at the numbers people are still playing MMORPG. And probably even more than before.
I think you make some ok points. However back in old MMO's they didnt have 25mil sales to get those numbers. They were retaining a high percent of their customers. It wasnt until the games switched their model to trash did they start having retention problems.
New world was at 1mil concurrent and is now a small fraction of that, even though they have been selling copies through the roof. The players are quiting faster than sales. New world is a brand new game, not a 20+ game. When good games were released they were increasing their number not decreasing. Most of the old MMO's were all growing year over year.
I am not disagreeing some of the old games are still retaining their playerbase to some degree. 20 years and still holding on shows how bad the new stuff is.
Then you have to factor in how much of this new stuff is actually either FREE or B2P. Players of this new stuff cant even be bothered to continue playing even when it costs them ZERO.
What would happen to games like Albion if it actually cost a sub instead of free? Oh wait we know that answer, it was at 500 players when a sub was required LOL.
Lets see New World start charging a sub and watch what happens to those numbers LOL.
Games that are completely free are not even in the same realm compared to games that require a sub. When its free a person can have 1000 accounts.
It doesn't matter if a game/mmo is good. Its all about the hype marketing pushes.
I basically explained that in my Original post. You people don't seem read or know what's going on (very close to none of you).
It seems most of you make up stuff in your head and stick with the wrong idea for years.
You say its only about hype? Lets test your theory.
Name a single recently released mmo from the last 7yrs that is Amazing and also not popular?
I doubt you can even list a single game from steam with an Overwhelming Postive rating that is also not popular.
Quality does in fact matter. The only problem is that hype can make a game popular for a little while, until the players abandon it.
You would find quite a few games on Steam that are Overwhelming rated but not popular , but only because they're niche games. That only fans of that genre would even purchase ..One could argue they're popular within there genre niche , but not popular with the Steam community in general.
I'd have to look back some years, but I remember it coming up that raiding only really constituted 20% of the active player base at endgame at any given time, and an even smaller gap for who was running the most current ones.
I do think that having raid type content is useful for that corner of the userbase, but it's also the misnomer that WoW fell into and contributed directly to it's loss of user retention when the cycle began focusing too much on raids as "the" endgame content.
Though that does go to say, they lost sight of "the total package".
I think WoW was designed from the get-go to not include the total package. It didn't have a "Worldly game", and was divided into zoned content. Even the economy was so divided, so that they could not have anything like a functioning economic system.
These things matter when considering "the total package." WoW, in effect, limited themselves to exactly what they had by their design choice. They polished the hell out of it and did a lot of great things within that context, and that's what made them the success they were. But in the end, there was nothing more they could do except add more of what they've done.
It doesn't matter if a game/mmo is good. Its all about the hype marketing pushes.
I basically explained that in my Original post. You people don't seem read or know what's going on (very close to none of you).
It seems most of you make up stuff in your head and stick with the wrong idea for years.
You say its only about hype? Lets test your theory.
Name a single recently released mmo from the last 7yrs that is Amazing and also not popular?
I doubt you can even list a single game from steam with an Overwhelming Postive rating that is also not popular.
Quality does in fact matter. The only problem is that hype can make a game popular for a little while, until the players abandon it.
You would find quite a few games on Steam that are Overwhelming rated but not popular , but only because they're niche games. That only fans of that genre would even purchase ..One could argue they're popular within there genre niche , but not popular with the Steam community in general.
Yeah I will have to concede that point. Niche games that appeal to only a small few can also be highly rated. I suppose if a game has the potential to be popular and is also overwhelming positive, the concept that it will be popular is hard to prove. Its a chicken and egg sort of thing.
Its going to be hard to prove a correlation to quality and success without there being some exceptions on either side.
It doesn't matter if a game/mmo is good. Its all about the hype marketing pushes.
I basically explained that in my Original post. You people don't seem read or know what's going on (very close to none of you).
It seems most of you make up stuff in your head and stick with the wrong idea for years.
You say its only about hype? Lets test your theory.
Name a single recently released mmo from the last 7yrs that is Amazing and also not popular?
I doubt you can even list a single game from steam with an Overwhelming Postive rating that is also not popular.
Quality does in fact matter. The only problem is that hype can make a game popular for a little while, until the players abandon it.
You would find quite a few games on Steam that are Overwhelming rated but not popular , but only because they're niche games. That only fans of that genre would even purchase ..One could argue they're popular within there genre niche , but not popular with the Steam community in general.
Yeah I will have to concede that point. Niche games that appeal to only a small few can also be highly rated. I suppose if a game has the potential to be popular and is also overwhelming positive, the concept that it will be popular is hard to prove. Its a chicken and egg sort of thing.
Its going to be hard to prove a correlation to quality and success without there being some exceptions on either side.
Steam ratings is farfetched example as you can get.
Nothing has more variables steam for arguing rating for popularity.
It doesn't matter if a game/mmo is good. Its all about the hype marketing pushes.
I basically explained that in my Original post. You people don't seem read or know what's going on (very close to none of you).
It seems most of you make up stuff in your head and stick with the wrong idea for years.
You say its only about hype? Lets test your theory.
Name a single recently released mmo from the last 7yrs that is Amazing and also not popular?
I doubt you can even list a single game from steam with an Overwhelming Postive rating that is also not popular.
Quality does in fact matter. The only problem is that hype can make a game popular for a little while, until the players abandon it.
You would find quite a few games on Steam that are Overwhelming rated but not popular , but only because they're niche games. That only fans of that genre would even purchase ..One could argue they're popular within there genre niche , but not popular with the Steam community in general.
Yeah I will have to concede that point. Niche games that appeal to only a small few can also be highly rated. I suppose if a game has the potential to be popular and is also overwhelming positive, the concept that it will be popular is hard to prove. Its a chicken and egg sort of thing.
Its going to be hard to prove a correlation to quality and success without there being some exceptions on either side.
Steam ratings is farfetched example as you can get.
Nothing has more variables steam for arguing rating for popularity.
Steam ratings can give you a feel for a game, if you use them wisely. For example if they really pan a game that is more likely a true picture than if they really praise it. This is because many games have a small core of fans dedicated to that style of game that will give it a thumbs up because they love the genre so much.
Also by looking at the negative reviews of a game that is overall Positive or better, you can find a pet hate that usually means the game is not for you. Some examples for me: humour which detracts from the game, the games controls cannot be changed, the port is bad. That last one might mean you just have to wait until they spruce up the port, but you can read Metacritic reviews and watch videos and still miss this sort of thing, so do check the Steam reviews.
Just remember a few Very Positive games on Steam can't muster 75 on Metacritic, on its own Steam reviews can be very misleading.
It doesn't matter if a game/mmo is good. Its all about the hype marketing pushes.
I basically explained that in my Original post. You people don't seem read or know what's going on (very close to none of you).
It seems most of you make up stuff in your head and stick with the wrong idea for years.
You say its only about hype? Lets test your theory.
Name a single recently released mmo from the last 7yrs that is Amazing and also not popular?
I doubt you can even list a single game from steam with an Overwhelming Postive rating that is also not popular.
Quality does in fact matter. The only problem is that hype can make a game popular for a little while, until the players abandon it.
You would find quite a few games on Steam that are Overwhelming rated but not popular , but only because they're niche games. That only fans of that genre would even purchase ..One could argue they're popular within there genre niche , but not popular with the Steam community in general.
Yeah I will have to concede that point. Niche games that appeal to only a small few can also be highly rated. I suppose if a game has the potential to be popular and is also overwhelming positive, the concept that it will be popular is hard to prove. Its a chicken and egg sort of thing.
Its going to be hard to prove a correlation to quality and success without there being some exceptions on either side.
Steam ratings is farfetched example as you can get.
Nothing has more variables steam for arguing rating for popularity.
Steam ratings can give you a feel for a game, if you use them wisely. For example if they really pan a game that is more likely a true picture than if they really praise it. This is because many games have a small core of fans dedicated to that style of game that will give it a thumbs up because they love the genre so much.
Also by looking at the negative reviews of a game that is overall Positive or better, you can find a pet hate that usually means the game is not for you. Some examples for me: humour which detracts from the game, the games controls cannot be changed, the port is bad. That last one might mean you just have to wait until they spruce up the port, but you can read Metacritic reviews and watch videos and still miss this sort of thing, so do check the Steam reviews.
Just remember a few Very Positive games on Steam can't muster 75 on Metacritic, on its own Steam reviews can be very misleading.
I pretty much dont even look at a game if it doesnt have a rating of Very Positive or above. There are so many ways to cheat the rating system. Also there are so many reviewers that will just flat out lie just for jokes.
Just look at Mark Jacobs game he made from the money of the Camelot Unchained backers.
There are numerous games currently operating, and many more no longer so but provided on private servers. They range from ancient in MMORPG terms to those barely released.
Fantasy games, science-fiction games, superhero games, horror games and probably some genres covered by games I'm not familiar with. Tab-target, action combat, even turn-based can be found.
Some to most may not like the choices available, but they are not lacking in number or variety. Your contention there is no choice is absolute rubbish!
If your respect is dependent on accepting your frequently bizarre to nonsensical claims as fact then I'll happily do without. I doubt I'm alone in this regard.
If we are talking about games in general - yes. If we are talking about MMORPGs - no. Most MMORPGs copy other games and most are generic mess aiming some nonsensical mass audience, so the real choice is actually very limited. And although there are different kinds of stories as you pointed, there are very few games with good storytelling. Even if we are talking about solo focused MMORPGs - nothing is even close to TW3 or RDR2 quality. If we are talking about balanced MMORPGs - probably only EVE. The hype is AoC will be as good or even better in the fantasy genre, but this is wishful thinking.
I'm talking about MMORPGs, and yes there is abundant choice. That you choose to reject many of the available options doesn't make them non-existent.
Their NOT any choices, even the classics are watered down.
I can tell from many of your post, you like this CRAP we have now, without directly saying it
Here's a time saving tool you can use in any future discussions regarding the abundance of game choice:
"There are no choices I like so there are no choices." ~ delete5230
There are numerous games currently operating, and many more no longer so but provided on private servers. They range from ancient in MMORPG terms to those barely released.
Fantasy games, science-fiction games, superhero games, horror games and probably some genres covered by games I'm not familiar with. Tab-target, action combat, even turn-based can be found.
Some to most may not like the choices available, but they are not lacking in number or variety. Your contention there is no choice is absolute rubbish!
If your respect is dependent on accepting your frequently bizarre to nonsensical claims as fact then I'll happily do without. I doubt I'm alone in this regard.
If we are talking about games in general - yes. If we are talking about MMORPGs - no. Most MMORPGs copy other games and most are generic mess aiming some nonsensical mass audience, so the real choice is actually very limited. And although there are different kinds of stories as you pointed, there are very few games with good storytelling. Even if we are talking about solo focused MMORPGs - nothing is even close to TW3 or RDR2 quality. If we are talking about balanced MMORPGs - probably only EVE. The hype is AoC will be as good or even better in the fantasy genre, but this is wishful thinking.
I'm talking about MMORPGs, and yes there is abundant choice. That you choose to reject many of the available options doesn't make them non-existent.
Their NOT any choices, even the classics are watered down.
I can tell from many of your post, you like this CRAP we have now, without directly saying it
Aren't you playing on the Turtle WoW private server? Talk about settling, why don't you look in the mirror .
By the way I love Turtle WoW It's still vanilla with some nice changes such as Treasure hunting and survival, and they added a few races and created their own zones for them !
Best of all its packed solid with players..... Why is it packed ?... Everything else is crap.
I'm excited even thinking about it.
Its free, no tricks you should play
Would that qualify as a choice, or are there still NOT any?
There are numerous games currently operating, and many more no longer so but provided on private servers. They range from ancient in MMORPG terms to those barely released.
Fantasy games, science-fiction games, superhero games, horror games and probably some genres covered by games I'm not familiar with. Tab-target, action combat, even turn-based can be found.
Some to most may not like the choices available, but they are not lacking in number or variety. Your contention there is no choice is absolute rubbish!
If your respect is dependent on accepting your frequently bizarre to nonsensical claims as fact then I'll happily do without. I doubt I'm alone in this regard.
If we are talking about games in general - yes. If we are talking about MMORPGs - no. Most MMORPGs copy other games and most are generic mess aiming some nonsensical mass audience, so the real choice is actually very limited. And although there are different kinds of stories as you pointed, there are very few games with good storytelling. Even if we are talking about solo focused MMORPGs - nothing is even close to TW3 or RDR2 quality. If we are talking about balanced MMORPGs - probably only EVE. The hype is AoC will be as good or even better in the fantasy genre, but this is wishful thinking.
I'm talking about MMORPGs, and yes there is abundant choice. That you choose to reject many of the available options doesn't make them non-existent.
Their NOT any choices, even the classics are watered down.
I can tell from many of your post, you like this CRAP we have now, without directly saying it
Aren't you playing on the Turtle WoW private server? Talk about settling, why don't you look in the mirror .
By the way I love Turtle WoW It's still vanilla with some nice changes such as Treasure hunting and survival, and they added a few races and created their own zones for them !
Best of all its packed solid with players..... Why is it packed ?... Everything else is crap.
I'm excited even thinking about it.
Its free, no tricks you should play
Would that qualify as a choice, or are there still NOT any?
I have an idea..... Why don't you play. I'll bet you would like it, then we can all be friends
There are numerous games currently operating, and many more no longer so but provided on private servers. They range from ancient in MMORPG terms to those barely released.
Fantasy games, science-fiction games, superhero games, horror games and probably some genres covered by games I'm not familiar with. Tab-target, action combat, even turn-based can be found.
Some to most may not like the choices available, but they are not lacking in number or variety. Your contention there is no choice is absolute rubbish!
If your respect is dependent on accepting your frequently bizarre to nonsensical claims as fact then I'll happily do without. I doubt I'm alone in this regard.
If we are talking about games in general - yes. If we are talking about MMORPGs - no. Most MMORPGs copy other games and most are generic mess aiming some nonsensical mass audience, so the real choice is actually very limited. And although there are different kinds of stories as you pointed, there are very few games with good storytelling. Even if we are talking about solo focused MMORPGs - nothing is even close to TW3 or RDR2 quality. If we are talking about balanced MMORPGs - probably only EVE. The hype is AoC will be as good or even better in the fantasy genre, but this is wishful thinking.
I'm talking about MMORPGs, and yes there is abundant choice. That you choose to reject many of the available options doesn't make them non-existent.
Their NOT any choices, even the classics are watered down.
I can tell from many of your post, you like this CRAP we have now, without directly saying it
Aren't you playing on the Turtle WoW private server? Talk about settling, why don't you look in the mirror .
By the way I love Turtle WoW It's still vanilla with some nice changes such as Treasure hunting and survival, and they added a few races and created their own zones for them !
Best of all its packed solid with players..... Why is it packed ?... Everything else is crap.
I'm excited even thinking about it.
Its free, no tricks you should play
Would that qualify as a choice, or are there still NOT any?
I have an idea..... Why don't you play. I'll bet you would like it, then we can all be friends
I have, and so mentioned on this forum multiple times.
It is indeed good and I do like it, but it is not a miracle worker.
I am glad you found something you so greatly enjoy.
There are numerous games currently operating, and many more no longer so but provided on private servers. They range from ancient in MMORPG terms to those barely released.
Fantasy games, science-fiction games, superhero games, horror games and probably some genres covered by games I'm not familiar with. Tab-target, action combat, even turn-based can be found.
Some to most may not like the choices available, but they are not lacking in number or variety. Your contention there is no choice is absolute rubbish!
If your respect is dependent on accepting your frequently bizarre to nonsensical claims as fact then I'll happily do without. I doubt I'm alone in this regard.
If we are talking about games in general - yes. If we are talking about MMORPGs - no. Most MMORPGs copy other games and most are generic mess aiming some nonsensical mass audience, so the real choice is actually very limited. And although there are different kinds of stories as you pointed, there are very few games with good storytelling. Even if we are talking about solo focused MMORPGs - nothing is even close to TW3 or RDR2 quality. If we are talking about balanced MMORPGs - probably only EVE. The hype is AoC will be as good or even better in the fantasy genre, but this is wishful thinking.
I'm talking about MMORPGs, and yes there is abundant choice. That you choose to reject many of the available options doesn't make them non-existent.
Their NOT any choices, even the classics are watered down.
I can tell from many of your post, you like this CRAP we have now, without directly saying it
Aren't you playing on the Turtle WoW private server? Talk about settling, why don't you look in the mirror .
By the way I love Turtle WoW It's still vanilla with some nice changes such as Treasure hunting and survival, and they added a few races and created their own zones for them !
Best of all its packed solid with players..... Why is it packed ?... Everything else is crap.
I'm excited even thinking about it.
Its free, no tricks you should play
Would that qualify as a choice, or are there still NOT any?
I have an idea..... Why don't you play. I'll bet you would like it, then we can all be friends
I have, and so mentioned on this forum multiple times.
It is indeed good and I do like it, but it is not a miracle worker.
I am glad you found something you so greatly enjoy.
I feel it's one of the only mmorpg's left. 10 times better than retail, Blizzard is a sell out to mmos.
There are numerous games currently operating, and many more no longer so but provided on private servers. They range from ancient in MMORPG terms to those barely released.
Fantasy games, science-fiction games, superhero games, horror games and probably some genres covered by games I'm not familiar with. Tab-target, action combat, even turn-based can be found.
Some to most may not like the choices available, but they are not lacking in number or variety. Your contention there is no choice is absolute rubbish!
If your respect is dependent on accepting your frequently bizarre to nonsensical claims as fact then I'll happily do without. I doubt I'm alone in this regard.
If we are talking about games in general - yes. If we are talking about MMORPGs - no. Most MMORPGs copy other games and most are generic mess aiming some nonsensical mass audience, so the real choice is actually very limited. And although there are different kinds of stories as you pointed, there are very few games with good storytelling. Even if we are talking about solo focused MMORPGs - nothing is even close to TW3 or RDR2 quality. If we are talking about balanced MMORPGs - probably only EVE. The hype is AoC will be as good or even better in the fantasy genre, but this is wishful thinking.
I'm talking about MMORPGs, and yes there is abundant choice. That you choose to reject many of the available options doesn't make them non-existent.
Their NOT any choices, even the classics are watered down.
I can tell from many of your post, you like this CRAP we have now, without directly saying it
Aren't you playing on the Turtle WoW private server? Talk about settling, why don't you look in the mirror .
By the way I love Turtle WoW It's still vanilla with some nice changes such as Treasure hunting and survival, and they added a few races and created their own zones for them !
Best of all its packed solid with players..... Why is it packed ?... Everything else is crap.
I'm excited even thinking about it.
Its free, no tricks you should play
Would that qualify as a choice, or are there still NOT any?
I have an idea..... Why don't you play. I'll bet you would like it, then we can all be friends
I have, and so mentioned on this forum multiple times.
It is indeed good and I do like it, but it is not a miracle worker.
I am glad you found something you so greatly enjoy.
I feel it's one of the only mmorpg's left. 10 times better than retail, Blizzard is a sell out to mmos.
How do you sell out of an MMORPG?
Also there is only one group to blame for all this......moms on the net..
This user is a registered flex offender. Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say. Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
If a game is hard and grindy many people quit or whine until the devs make it easier. Also players seem far less likely to group than "back in the day." Devs do cater to these things. Also the time and effort to make a good mmorpg is not cost efficient. If you work on a game and spend years and millions of dollars on and then it flops you are screwed. In today's day and age no matter what devs do people are going to complain. Very few companies even have the assets to attempt to make a proper mmorpg and i don't blame them for not taking the risk
Comments
Maybe I am misinterpreting your point here. What I thought you were saying is that End Game raiding wasnt a big part of what makes WoW popular. I was simply making a point that just because people dont all do end game raiding doesnt mean the game would still be popular without it. The entire package is needed for popularity IMO. End game is what the core is trying to get to, without it many people wouldnt even bother to start in the first place.
Also on your critical mass theory, I dont think we are in conflict. I agree with you on that, was just pointing out that critical mass can be both positive AND negative to a game.
I do think that having raid type content is useful for that corner of the userbase, but it's also the misnomer that WoW fell into and contributed directly to it's loss of user retention when the cycle began focusing too much on raids as "the" endgame content.
Though that does go to say, they lost sight of "the total package".
I am really surprised you said New World sold 25 million copies. I think you said base on steam chart it only have 50000 players. But that is concurrent players. The monthly players you need to times by roughly 20 to get an estimatees. That is roughly 1 million players.
I think you are expecting too much. Ultima Online at it's peak have 250,000 players. But the concurrent players are probably only at 12k. So base on Steam charts how can you say 30k concurrent daily peak players is bad?
If you look at games like Lost ark it have 100,000 concurrent players. That is roughly 2 million monthly players. And that dont' even include the amount of players that don't play on Steam(mostly asians). Granted lost ark is arguable an ARPG instead of MMORPG. Or if you look at FF14's steam counts. 37,000 concurrent players. So you get close to 750k FF14 players on steam. And many people actually don't play on steam.
Or if you look at the mobile mmolist. Games like lineage M made 4 billion dollars over several years.
Or even old time games like Runescape or Eve is still going strong.
I think the reality is just like you said. Only a handful of MMORPG actually manage to survive. But if you just look at the numbers people are still playing MMORPG. And probably even more than before.
New world was at 1mil concurrent and is now a small fraction of that, even though they have been selling copies through the roof. The players are quiting faster than sales. New world is a brand new game, not a 20+ game. When good games were released they were increasing their number not decreasing. Most of the old MMO's were all growing year over year.
I am not disagreeing some of the old games are still retaining their playerbase to some degree. 20 years and still holding on shows how bad the new stuff is.
Then you have to factor in how much of this new stuff is actually either FREE or B2P. Players of this new stuff cant even be bothered to continue playing even when it costs them ZERO.
What would happen to games like Albion if it actually cost a sub instead of free? Oh wait we know that answer, it was at 500 players when a sub was required LOL.
Lets see New World start charging a sub and watch what happens to those numbers LOL.
Games that are completely free are not even in the same realm compared to games that require a sub. When its free a person can have 1000 accounts.
I basically explained that in my Original post.
You people don't seem read or know what's going on (very close to none of you).
It seems most of you make up stuff in your head and stick with the wrong idea for years.
I doubt you can even list a single game from steam with an Overwhelming Postive rating that is also not popular.
Quality does in fact matter. The only problem is that hype can make a game popular for a little while, until the players abandon it.
It didn't have a "Worldly game", and was divided into zoned content. Even the economy was so divided, so that they could not have anything like a functioning economic system.
These things matter when considering "the total package."
WoW, in effect, limited themselves to exactly what they had by their design choice.
They polished the hell out of it and did a lot of great things within that context, and that's what made them the success they were.
But in the end, there was nothing more they could do except add more of what they've done.
Once upon a time....
Yeah I will have to concede that point. Niche games that appeal to only a small few can also be highly rated. I suppose if a game has the potential to be popular and is also overwhelming positive, the concept that it will be popular is hard to prove. Its a chicken and egg sort of thing.
Its going to be hard to prove a correlation to quality and success without there being some exceptions on either side.
Nothing has more variables steam for arguing rating for popularity.
Also by looking at the negative reviews of a game that is overall Positive or better, you can find a pet hate that usually means the game is not for you. Some examples for me: humour which detracts from the game, the games controls cannot be changed, the port is bad. That last one might mean you just have to wait until they spruce up the port, but you can read Metacritic reviews and watch videos and still miss this sort of thing, so do check the Steam reviews.
Just remember a few Very Positive games on Steam can't muster 75 on Metacritic, on its own Steam reviews can be very misleading.
Just look at Mark Jacobs game he made from the money of the Camelot Unchained backers.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1605600/Final_Stand_Ragnark/#app_reviews_hash
Nobody will even play that game for more than 1 hour and it still has 50% positive reviews.
Usually thou, if a game on Steam has Overwhelmingly positive reviews AND it has 5k+ reviews, it will likely be pretty good if its in a genre I like.
"There are no choices I like so there are no choices." ~ delete5230
Would that qualify as a choice, or are there still NOT any?
It is indeed good and I do like it, but it is not a miracle worker.
I am glad you found something you so greatly enjoy.
Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.
Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.