Originally posted by IcoGames Is this the end of the SWG? No. If games like Asheron's Call are still around, then SWG will be here for quite some time. The more important question you should be asking: Is the game dead for you? I'm constantly asking myself if I'm having fun with the game. When I find that I'm not having fun, I either take a break or cancel my sub.
Well said. I think many people tend to blame a game for being bored, when in truth its because the game has become a routine due to time involved and they have grown tired of that. Persoanlly I think a lot of the anger also comes from the standards of mmorpgs in general. There aren't really that many good ones. So when people burn out of something they've been playing for years and find a lack of choices they feel frustrated, so once again blame the game.
AC2 went face down today. Last day is 12/30/05. And from what I read on forums here and there, chats, and from a friend AC2 had alot of the problems SWG had without the god class. So should at least show no game is safe. And if something drastic doesnt happen, SWG players could be getting their pinkslip someday.
Originally posted by jessian the game died when the phase of holocron harvesting started. people were too interested in unlocking jedi. the game died then. and yes i been with the game since launch. dont play any more. brother still does.
Itsn't that a contradiction, since the hologrind ended over a year ago. Your brother can't be playing, if the game is dead.
Agree though, I lost a lot of friends at the time over the hologrind. It burnt a lot of people out. So during that phase it did struggle. That doesn't mean it is now.
Originally posted by grapevine I don't see a reference to AC2 in his post.
He mentioned AC. Asheron's Call. Asheron's Call 2, the sequel is going down. And, if the forums on AC 1 and 2 are any indication, then AC1 might not be too long for the chop as well. But that could just be jitters. Even the players at DDO and LOTRO are starting to feel shaky about their Turbine games.
Originally posted by IcoGames Is this the end of the SWG? No. If games like Asheron's Call are still around, then SWG will be here for quite some time.
Originally posted by kaibigan34 AC2 went face down today.i
Lol, that's awesome timing.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by grapevine I don't see a reference to AC2 in his post.
He mentioned AC. Asheron's Call. Asheron's Call 2, the sequel is going down. And, if the forums on AC 1 and 2 are any indication, then AC1 might not be too long for the chop as well. But that could just be jitters. Even the players at DDO and LOTRO are starting to feel shaky about their Turbine games.
Kai
OMG every game is doomed...dooooooomed!!!
AC2 must have been really special to have such a major impact on the industry, nothing will survive without it.
Do really know how stupid that sounds, trying to say SWG's existance is based on a game that isn't related in anyway other than it being a mmorpg. Guess your expecting a mass exodus as a move to support the follow gamers who now unable to play AC2.
AC2 is a sequal, just as you state. Just like EQ2 is. AC (which was originally stated) is its own entiry, just like EQ is. The failure or success of either prequal or sequal aren't linked, other than a potential (cross over) fan base and the financial status of the company.
Originally posted by kaibigan34 Originally posted by grapevine I don't see a reference to AC2 in his post. He mentioned AC. Asheron's Call. Asheron's Call 2, the sequel is going down. And, if the forums on AC 1 and 2 are any indication, then AC1 might not be too long for the chop as well. But that could just be jitters. Even the players at DDO and LOTRO are starting to feel shaky about their Turbine games. Kai
Just as a point of reference the difference between AC and AC2 is this:
1) AC2 has never even re-couped it's development costs. And it's costing them more to run the servers than it brings in in subscriptions.
2) AC1 paid off it's development costs in it's first 6 months out. It's pure profit now. It has over 45,000 users and holds pretty steady there though it does have a slow decline going on. Turbine is funding DDO and LOTRO from the profits on AC1. It's not going anywhere anytime soon.
Once an MMORPG has paid off it's development costs it only needs a few thousand paying subscribers to keep the servers running. Double that initial requirement and it can continue developing bug fixes, content updates, etc fairly easily. Once you get up above 20k users it's in pure-profit mode. As long as AC1 has over 10k subscribers it is safe unless Turbine just gets tired of supporting it.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
On a side note SWG is in even better shape than AC1: Over 250k subscribers Paid for it's development long long long ago.
SWG is pure profit. No matter how you slice it. Even if people are paying but not playing. It aint going anywhere for a long long time unless LA yanks the license to run the game.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Elnator On a side note SWG is in even better shape than AC1: Over 250k subscribers Paid for it's development long long long ago. SWG is pure profit. No matter how you slice it. Even if people are paying but not playing. It aint going anywhere for a long long time unless LA yanks the license to run the game.
Therein lies the answer, my friends. Star Wars Galaxies is not going anywhere, and LA yanking the license is not going to happen. LA would get spanked by SOE for doing so, as I am sure that it would be against their contracts. For new players thinking of joining, you really can't find a much more fun experiencef than SWG especially if you get the Total Experience package. It's just damn fun and I sympathize with veterans of the game who feel and have felt that their classes got nerfed or rendered less useful in some way.
I appeal to your sensiblity: participate on the official forums and suggestion sections and objectively and rationally post your thoughts and hopes there. You would be suprised how much action you can get out of developers if you are persistant AND civil.
I wish it would just die. That way maybe they could release the source out and people could make their own servers. Just imagine a Pre-Cu server with no hope of ever becoming a Jedi.
Originally posted by grapevine I don't see a reference to AC2 in his post.
He mentioned AC. Asheron's Call. Asheron's Call 2, the sequel is going down. And, if the forums on AC 1 and 2 are any indication, then AC1 might not be too long for the chop as well. But that could just be jitters. Even the players at DDO and LOTRO are starting to feel shaky about their Turbine games.
Kai
OMG every game is doomed...dooooooomed!!!
AC2 must have been really special to have such a major impact on the industry, nothing will survive without it.
Do really know how stupid that sounds, trying to say SWG's existance is based on a game that isn't related in anyway other than it being a mmorpg. Guess your expecting a mass exodus as a move to support the follow gamers who now unable to play AC2.
AC2 is a sequal, just as you state. Just like EQ2 is. AC (which was originally stated) is its own entiry, just like EQ is. The failure or success of either prequal or sequal aren't linked, other than a potential (cross over) fan base and the financial status of the company.
Did I say this meant SWG was doomed? At what point did I ever say that? I didnt. Dont put words in my mouth. This is exactly the problem on here. You and others attack someone for saying even sligthly negative then run to the "Stop attacking us" defense when you get attacked in kind. And this is one of many reasons people steer clear of SWG. They see Llamas like you attacking everyone with a different opinion then running and hiding. And this is exactly why the big fight got started yesterday.
You have a different opinion? Fine. State it and move on. dont be condesending or insulting in its presentation. Or people like will defend themselves. Sorry but I am tried of the keyboard warrior junk about SWG and then the inevidable pity party people like you try to pull.
AC2 is an MMO. Just like EQ, EQ2, WoW, CoH, and yes even SWG. And it shows that no game is safe. That any game can close for whatever reason. Alot of the people in AC2 are telling the problems and they sound so familiar with SWG. There might be other things too. Fine. But it still shows a strong game company is more then willing to axe a project instead of trying to fix it. And SOE is definately good at not choosing the right thing to do.
It just means that things can change for the worst very quickly. Erillion said it was unexpected for AC2 to shut down. And he is right. the general additude of the players was they knew it was coming. But also how many players feel the same way about SWG? Alot. Maybe more then AC2. And if (IF) SWG were to close then I am willing to bet alot of current players and former players would say they saw it coming too.
So grape next time dont jump someone just because they think differently from you. I hear they do they same thing.
Originally posted by Elnator On a side note SWG is in even better shape than AC1: Over 250k subscribers Paid for it's development long long long ago. SWG is pure profit. No matter how you slice it. Even if people are paying but not playing. It aint going anywhere for a long long time unless LA yanks the license to run the game.
Therein lies the answer, my friends. Star Wars Galaxies is not going anywhere, and LA yanking the license is not going to happen. LA would get spanked by SOE for doing so, as I am sure that it would be against their contracts. For new players thinking of joining, you really can't find a much more fun experiencef than SWG especially if you get the Total Experience package. It's just damn fun and I sympathize with veterans of the game who feel and have felt that their classes got nerfed or rendered less useful in some way.
I appeal to your sensiblity: participate on the official forums and suggestion sections and objectively and rationally post your thoughts and hopes there. You would be suprised how much action you can get out of developers if you are persistant AND civil.
Uh...... your kidding right? Participate in the official forums? Whether civil or not it goes nowhere. Thats a fact. Your a newbie as am I. I however have taken the time to read some of the old posts and do see a pattern, which is Tiggs will make a comment, nothing changes regardless and life goes on.
Originally posted by Elnator On a side note SWG is in even better shape than AC1: Over 250k subscribers Paid for it's development long long long ago. SWG is pure profit. No matter how you slice it. Even if people are paying but not playing. It aint going anywhere for a long long time unless LA yanks the license to run the game.
For now it is profit. But for how long? As I was trying to say, before grapevine had too put words in my mouth, if the developers keep making these totally nuts decisions how long will it last?
Not long. They made two very big mistakes in just two weeks. And I think it cost them. I have to wait for the update from MMOGchart but I think it might show a severe drop. I dont know if I trust that site's accuracy since the creator gets alot of the info from the companies and SOE is consistent about one thing, their love of lies. But its the only thing we have to go on.
If they keep going in their current direction with these continious stupid choices I dont think SWG will be around much longer. I really think when they get that stupid expansion (Ohh Mustafar! How Un ESB can you get?) released, if its primarily jedi content like they are suggesting or insinuating, they will lose even more players then the XP nerf, announcement and Crafting nerf combined.
With that many people walking and it would be a year or more before they filled those vacancies and SWG players could get the pink slip.
And before grapvine decides to jump me again for having a different view from his remember, this is only my opinion.
MMORPGs die hard and even when they do, they die slowly. Heck, Horizons is still running despite the great financial problems they faced. Shadowbane survived from a period where they did not have enough customers to make profit (less than 40.000 customers), though the financial loss wasn't as great.
SWG does preserve 250.000 customers and is still supported and developed. New expansions also tend to bring more attention, so I'd say it is way far from dying.
Currently playing: * City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant. * City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.
Originally posted by kaibigan34 Did I say this meant SWG was doomed? At what point did I ever say that? I didnt. Dont put words in my mouth.
Well let's see...
Originally posted by kaibigan34 AC2 went face down today. Last day is 12/30/05. And from what I read on forums here and there, chats, and from a friend AC2 had alot of the problems SWG had without the god class. So should at least show no game is safe. And if something drastic doesnt happen, SWG players could be getting their pinkslip someday. Kai
So you didn't say SWG was doomed? You said if something drastic doesn't happen it was, though. I understand where you're coming from but don't get all in a huff when someone merely understands and then states what you were insinuating.
SWG is very profitable, and also in my opinion, very fun. I'll tell you in a year or so whether or not I agree with you on the higher end of the game, but I'm sorry it will take me about that long. For now it's really very fun, and it isn't getting cancelled.
AC2, as Elnator said, hadn't recouped its development costs and was costing more to run than it was taking in, thus the decision to pull the plug. As Elnator also said, SWG recouped its development costs long ago, and with over 200 thousand active subscriptions, it is really very profitable for SOE and the end is nowhere in sight.
I think that should kill this thread, unless anyone else just wants to keep hatin' for hatin's sake.
I agree with Kaibigan, but SOE has massive backing. And given that they have dumped SO much capital into this product, they will hold on for every penny, even after the base developers are all gone.
But if you weren't around for it, you would not realize the game died a long time ago for the majority of us.
Backintheday when Jedi and Holocrons were added, that sealed its fate. Now, SOE is pushing for the next expansion once again. And all it is - is the Holocron fiasco all over again.
It sounds like a good business decision on paper, but in the end all the ignoring of the classes will come to a head once they start developing that expansion and the game will be finished.
Just because it has servers doesn't mean the game isn't dead. It just means the management of it hasn't figured out that's it dead yet.
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"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Yeah but the game wont actually die tell people stop playing it. So it may be dead to an individual but its hardly dead profit and population wise. I think the game has quite a bit of life in it regardless of how the Devs may treat the community. I think it would take quite a few repeats of something such as the XP nerf to seal its fate.
Originally posted by madazz Yeah but the game wont actually die tell people stop playing it. So it may be dead to an individual but its hardly dead profit and population wise. I think the game has quite a bit of life in it regardless of how the Devs may treat the community. I think it would take quite a few repeats of something such as the XP nerf to seal its fate.
Do you have any idea how much it cost SOE to build this game? They have not made a profit on it, at least not enough of one to warrant continued investment.
With this team is took nearly $20 million just to build the release version of the game. This is the largest development team in the industry by far.
Keeping it running is just as much of an expense, so the business clowns turn to more and more expansions as their current design isn't really cutting the mustard with the potential playerbase.
The fact that SWG capped at 250k accounts is a SERIOUS issue for them. They assumed a lot more than that, over four times that much in fact.
Given the salaries of the development team as they stand right now, they are not making enough to pay them. I'm serious, this game is not returning nearly enough revenues to warrant its continued existence. If it takes another hit like the hit it took at the CU implementation, the game WILL be canned.
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"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
I dunno how jedi could ruin the game, frankly I had no desire to play the game when I found out I couldn't be a jedi character from the start. I mean... um how many people wanna be anything else? You can only have so many bounty hunter clones. Perhaps it's just the people I know but no one wants to play a Star Wars game if they can't be a jedi. The quests and grinds they got now to become one is just that and we're not gonna waste our time doing it.
I have to say SWG is the worst take on what could have been a AWESOME game. I can't believe their research monkies couldn't figure out most people actually want to be jedi/sith and not NORMAL boring people.
Originally posted by Celestian I dunno how jedi could ruin the game
That's because it's not the players ruining the game.
It's how Jedi were implemented, and its timing.
The REAL problem with Galaxies has always been that there is little to no content in the professions themselves. Each one desperately requires a rework, however SOE instead announced right out of the starting gate that they were bringing the Space Expansion in 1 year.
What this did was turn the development team totally towards a separate product than the one all these customers had just purchased.
Now, nothing was getting done as far as completing the game, by putting that content in the professions and solidifying their purpose, not to mention just fixing the thousands of bugs in this portion of the game alone.
Then Jedi came along, and every freakin patch after that was trying desperately to control them, to fix their bugs, to add their content...
And nobody had any hope left that their profession of choice would ever get addressed.
Now, SOE has FINALLY turned to starting to fix the professions and the game is going in the right direction...only to find out that SOE instead will be pushing yet another new expansion. In fact, an expansion mostly dedicated...to JEDI! I'm sorry, but the remaining players are just not going to sit still for this.
It is literally the final nail in this coffin. And SOE cannot allow another customer exodus like they got with the CU and the XP nerf/fix, the game is barely riding the line of being financially justified as it is.
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"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Originally posted by Celestian I dunno how jedi could ruin the game, frankly I had no desire to play the game when I found out I couldn't be a jedi character from the start. I mean... um how many people wanna be anything else? You can only have so many bounty hunter clones. Perhaps it's just the people I know but no one wants to play a Star Wars game if they can't be a jedi. The quests and grinds they got now to become one is just that and we're not gonna waste our time doing it. I have to say SWG is the worst take on what could have been a AWESOME game. I can't believe their research monkies couldn't figure out most people actually want to be jedi/sith and not NORMAL boring people. I feel for anyone playing this game.
I for one most want to be Boba Fett. He was THE kewlest character from the movies, well top 5 behind Han Solo and I would give him a 4 way Tie with Han, Darth, Luke and Boba Fett.
Jedi is damn kewl of course, and kewler still is the light saber. But Bob Fett is just way too kick-ass to have ignored this post.
Also, don't feel for me, I'ts a damn kewl game and you speak from a position of almost total ignorance, if not total seeing as you haven't even played it. I feel for anyone who talks about things that they have no real clue about. I am still new at the game but at least I have tried it to see that its freakin fun so far. You, by your post, haven't even tried it.
I for one most want to be Boba Fett. He was THE kewlest character from the movies, well
Listen to yourself. You sound like the THOUSANDS of posts during the beta period.
If SOE was paying attention THEN, they would have noticed this.
The CONTENT is in BOBA FETT. HAN SOLO. LUKE.
Right, there it is. People want to experience what THEY did, and that means their professions. Who they are...is their JOB. Solo is a Smuggler. He SMUGGLES for Pete's sake! Does nobody understand this concept?
This was the direction the game should have taken a year before release. Instead, it was led down the development cul-de-sac by Mr. Art-Versus-Content Koster, who misdirected it. It was no different after release, and after FIVE YEARS of development, they aren't even close yet to an actual game!
I've said it before, I'll say it again. As long as SOE keeps going this route, it will never be a game. It's interactive art.
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"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Listen to yourself. You sound like the THOUSANDS of posts during the beta period.If SOE was paying attention THEN, they would have noticed this.The CONTENT is in BOBA FETT. HAN SOLO. LUKE. Right, there it is. People want to experience what THEY did, and that means their professions. Who they are...is their JOB. Solo is a Smuggler. He SMUGGLES for Pete's sake! Does nobody understand this concept? This was the direction the game should have taken a year before release. Instead, it was led down the development cul-de-sac by Mr. Art-Versus-Content Koster, who misdirected it. It was no different after release, and after FIVE YEARS of development, they aren't even close yet to an actual game! I've said it before, I'll say it again. As long as SOE keeps going this route, it will never be a game. It's interactive art.
So what you're saying is, more time spent balancing the professions, Jedi included, and less time injecting new content? If so, I would have to agree, not that I have experience anything like profession unbalance as yet being that I am quite a n00b thus far. I would love it if it were a bit more hardcore, like Bounty Hunters really having to work to find a bounty like Boba had to work to get Solo. I'm sure Boba Fett didn't get like 5 bountys a day, hell even Dog the bounty hunter has to work dang hard to get 3 in a day, and his enemies aren't armed with blasters (usually ).
Originally posted by anarchyart Originally posted by Wepps ....the game is barely riding the line of being financially justified as it is. Wepps, I love ya bro, but seriously, how do you figure? I would be very interested to see any shred of proof of this fact even being close to right.
You couldn't understand because you aren't involved in a business. The development of JUST a base MMO these days costs 10s of millions. In SOE's case, it cost nearly $20 million just to produce it. You need the capital to expend to begin with, and you are getting no return on that capital investment until it's released to the public.
Koster and Co were assuming 1 million accounts, he made the statement before release.
What they got was 250k at the 3 month mark after release, and this is the high water mark because population has been dwindling ever since. This has never been a successful venture even by SOE's own definition.
However, the reason it won't actually have the plug pulled for some time is because it is part of something greater, the Total Access Accounts. This is the only thing keeping it above water at this time.
Let's assume that over time, a total of twice that number at the high water mark have purchased the game. At an average of $35 per copy, you are realizing a revenue on sales of a total of maybe $17.5 million. This is not enough to even cover it's base development cost before release.
Post-release, the team has expanded. It started with 60 developers. Let's assume it has 80 now (this is a conservative figure). These people are being paid, on average, $85,000 per year each. Over 80 developers, that's $6.9 million per year. Then there are the peripheral teams, of huge personnel numbers. CSR, Networking, Marketing, Accounting, Legal, secretarial, maintenance...and we haven't even begun to discuss the MANAGEMENT salaries, which are enormous. And that's just the salaries! How many pieces of computer equipment alone are there? These are not $1500 machines. They are top of the line developer models, complete with half a dozen purchased licenses on EACH. These machines are worth over $10,000 a pop. We haven't even touched on the insurance and litigation costs, which are always a major issue.
Imagine the cost of building and maintaining this server farm alone! And it's in a separate facility! Imagine maintaining the dormitories of personnel in San Jose at their main facility.
At this time, this game is scraping bottom. There are NO MORE THAN 100k active accounts. That means that if those players are paying on average $13.50 per account per month, which is likely, that return in monthly revenues is only showing as roughly $1.4 million and I'm being generous.
I honestly wouldn't want to touch this company if they GAVE it to me. This dog just isn't hunting lol.
I'd have my life in danger just because I'd be forced to fire 2/3s of these people, just to make it barely profitable, then the problems of streamlining an already demoralized team remaining, and nothing is ever actually getting done. I'd have to find new ways to motivate them.
You have to understand, it's not just a couplaguys sitting around in the closet coding like Runescape. This is a massive venture, and it has not paid enough to warrant the effort and expense.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Comments
AC2 went face down today. Last day is 12/30/05. And from what I read on forums here and there, chats, and from a friend AC2 had alot of the problems SWG had without the god class. So should at least show no game is safe. And if something drastic doesnt happen, SWG players could be getting their pinkslip someday.
Kai
I don't see a reference to AC2 in his post.
Itsn't that a contradiction, since the hologrind ended over a year ago. Your brother can't be playing, if the game is dead.
Agree though, I lost a lot of friends at the time over the hologrind. It burnt a lot of people out. So during that phase it did struggle. That doesn't mean it is now.
He mentioned AC. Asheron's Call. Asheron's Call 2, the sequel is going down. And, if the forums on AC 1 and 2 are any indication, then AC1 might not be too long for the chop as well. But that could just be jitters. Even the players at DDO and LOTRO are starting to feel shaky about their Turbine games.
Kai
Lol, that's awesome timing.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
AC2 went belly up, not AC. And for AC2 it was not unexpected.
Have fun
Erillion
He mentioned AC. Asheron's Call. Asheron's Call 2, the sequel is going down. And, if the forums on AC 1 and 2 are any indication, then AC1 might not be too long for the chop as well. But that could just be jitters. Even the players at DDO and LOTRO are starting to feel shaky about their Turbine games.
Kai
OMG every game is doomed...dooooooomed!!!
AC2 must have been really special to have such a major impact on the industry, nothing will survive without it.
Do really know how stupid that sounds, trying to say SWG's existance is based on a game that isn't related in anyway other than it being a mmorpg. Guess your expecting a mass exodus as a move to support the follow gamers who now unable to play AC2.
AC2 is a sequal, just as you state. Just like EQ2 is. AC (which was originally stated) is its own entiry, just like EQ is. The failure or success of either prequal or sequal aren't linked, other than a potential (cross over) fan base and the financial status of the company.
Just as a point of reference the difference between AC and AC2 is this:
1) AC2 has never even re-couped it's development costs. And it's costing them more to run the servers than it brings in in subscriptions.
2) AC1 paid off it's development costs in it's first 6 months out. It's pure profit now. It has over 45,000 users and holds pretty steady there though it does have a slow decline going on. Turbine is funding DDO and LOTRO from the profits on AC1. It's not going anywhere anytime soon.
Once an MMORPG has paid off it's development costs it only needs a few thousand paying subscribers to keep the servers running. Double that initial requirement and it can continue developing bug fixes, content updates, etc fairly easily. Once you get up above 20k users it's in pure-profit mode. As long as AC1 has over 10k subscribers it is safe unless Turbine just gets tired of supporting it.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
On a side note SWG is in even better shape than AC1:
Over 250k subscribers
Paid for it's development long long long ago.
SWG is pure profit. No matter how you slice it. Even if people are paying but not playing. It aint going anywhere for a long long time unless LA yanks the license to run the game.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Therein lies the answer, my friends. Star Wars Galaxies is not going anywhere, and LA yanking the license is not going to happen. LA would get spanked by SOE for doing so, as I am sure that it would be against their contracts. For new players thinking of joining, you really can't find a much more fun experiencef than SWG especially if you get the Total Experience package. It's just damn fun and I sympathize with veterans of the game who feel and have felt that their classes got nerfed or rendered less useful in some way.
I appeal to your sensiblity: participate on the official forums and suggestion sections and objectively and rationally post your thoughts and hopes there. You would be suprised how much action you can get out of developers if you are persistant AND civil.
He mentioned AC. Asheron's Call. Asheron's Call 2, the sequel is going down. And, if the forums on AC 1 and 2 are any indication, then AC1 might not be too long for the chop as well. But that could just be jitters. Even the players at DDO and LOTRO are starting to feel shaky about their Turbine games.
Kai
OMG every game is doomed...dooooooomed!!!
AC2 must have been really special to have such a major impact on the industry, nothing will survive without it.
Do really know how stupid that sounds, trying to say SWG's existance is based on a game that isn't related in anyway other than it being a mmorpg. Guess your expecting a mass exodus as a move to support the follow gamers who now unable to play AC2.
AC2 is a sequal, just as you state. Just like EQ2 is. AC (which was originally stated) is its own entiry, just like EQ is. The failure or success of either prequal or sequal aren't linked, other than a potential (cross over) fan base and the financial status of the company.
Did I say this meant SWG was doomed? At what point did I ever say that? I didnt. Dont put words in my mouth. This is exactly the problem on here. You and others attack someone for saying even sligthly negative then run to the "Stop attacking us" defense when you get attacked in kind. And this is one of many reasons people steer clear of SWG. They see Llamas like you attacking everyone with a different opinion then running and hiding. And this is exactly why the big fight got started yesterday.
You have a different opinion? Fine. State it and move on. dont be condesending or insulting in its presentation. Or people like will defend themselves. Sorry but I am tried of the keyboard warrior junk about SWG and then the inevidable pity party people like you try to pull.
AC2 is an MMO. Just like EQ, EQ2, WoW, CoH, and yes even SWG. And it shows that no game is safe. That any game can close for whatever reason. Alot of the people in AC2 are telling the problems and they sound so familiar with SWG. There might be other things too. Fine. But it still shows a strong game company is more then willing to axe a project instead of trying to fix it. And SOE is definately good at not choosing the right thing to do.
It just means that things can change for the worst very quickly. Erillion said it was unexpected for AC2 to shut down. And he is right. the general additude of the players was they knew it was coming. But also how many players feel the same way about SWG? Alot. Maybe more then AC2. And if (IF) SWG were to close then I am willing to bet alot of current players and former players would say they saw it coming too.
So grape next time dont jump someone just because they think differently from you. I hear they do they same thing.
Kai
Therein lies the answer, my friends. Star Wars Galaxies is not going anywhere, and LA yanking the license is not going to happen. LA would get spanked by SOE for doing so, as I am sure that it would be against their contracts. For new players thinking of joining, you really can't find a much more fun experiencef than SWG especially if you get the Total Experience package. It's just damn fun and I sympathize with veterans of the game who feel and have felt that their classes got nerfed or rendered less useful in some way.
I appeal to your sensiblity: participate on the official forums and suggestion sections and objectively and rationally post your thoughts and hopes there. You would be suprised how much action you can get out of developers if you are persistant AND civil.
Uh...... your kidding right? Participate in the official forums? Whether civil or not it goes nowhere. Thats a fact. Your a newbie as am I. I however have taken the time to read some of the old posts and do see a pattern, which is Tiggs will make a comment, nothing changes regardless and life goes on.
For now it is profit. But for how long? As I was trying to say, before grapevine had too put words in my mouth, if the developers keep making these totally nuts decisions how long will it last?
Not long. They made two very big mistakes in just two weeks. And I think it cost them. I have to wait for the update from MMOGchart but I think it might show a severe drop. I dont know if I trust that site's accuracy since the creator gets alot of the info from the companies and SOE is consistent about one thing, their love of lies. But its the only thing we have to go on.
If they keep going in their current direction with these continious stupid choices I dont think SWG will be around much longer. I really think when they get that stupid expansion (Ohh Mustafar! How Un ESB can you get?) released, if its primarily jedi content like they are suggesting or insinuating, they will lose even more players then the XP nerf, announcement and Crafting nerf combined.
With that many people walking and it would be a year or more before they filled those vacancies and SWG players could get the pink slip.
And before grapvine decides to jump me again for having a different view from his remember, this is only my opinion.
Kai
MMORPGs die hard and even when they do, they die slowly. Heck, Horizons is still running despite the great financial problems they faced. Shadowbane survived from a period where they did not have enough customers to make profit (less than 40.000 customers), though the financial loss wasn't as great.
SWG does preserve 250.000 customers and is still supported and developed. New expansions also tend to bring more attention, so I'd say it is way far from dying.
Currently playing:
* City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant.
* City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.
Well let's see...
So you didn't say SWG was doomed? You said if something drastic doesn't happen it was, though. I understand where you're coming from but don't get all in a huff when someone merely understands and then states what you were insinuating.
SWG is very profitable, and also in my opinion, very fun. I'll tell you in a year or so whether or not I agree with you on the higher end of the game, but I'm sorry it will take me about that long. For now it's really very fun, and it isn't getting cancelled.
AC2, as Elnator said, hadn't recouped its development costs and was costing more to run than it was taking in, thus the decision to pull the plug. As Elnator also said, SWG recouped its development costs long ago, and with over 200 thousand active subscriptions, it is really very profitable for SOE and the end is nowhere in sight.
I think that should kill this thread, unless anyone else just wants to keep hatin' for hatin's sake.
I agree with Kaibigan, but SOE has massive backing. And given that they have dumped SO much capital into this product, they will hold on for every penny, even after the base developers are all gone.
But if you weren't around for it, you would not realize the game died a long time ago for the majority of us.
Backintheday when Jedi and Holocrons were added, that sealed its fate. Now, SOE is pushing for the next expansion once again. And all it is - is the Holocron fiasco all over again.
It sounds like a good business decision on paper, but in the end all the ignoring of the classes will come to a head once they start developing that expansion and the game will be finished.
Just because it has servers doesn't mean the game isn't dead. It just means the management of it hasn't figured out that's it dead yet.
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"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Do you have any idea how much it cost SOE to build this game? They have not made a profit on it, at least not enough of one to warrant continued investment.
With this team is took nearly $20 million just to build the release version of the game. This is the largest development team in the industry by far.
Keeping it running is just as much of an expense, so the business clowns turn to more and more expansions as their current design isn't really cutting the mustard with the potential playerbase.
The fact that SWG capped at 250k accounts is a SERIOUS issue for them. They assumed a lot more than that, over four times that much in fact.
Given the salaries of the development team as they stand right now, they are not making enough to pay them. I'm serious, this game is not returning nearly enough revenues to warrant its continued existence. If it takes another hit like the hit it took at the CU implementation, the game WILL be canned.
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"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
I dunno how jedi could ruin the game, frankly I had no desire to play the game when I found out I couldn't be a jedi character from the start. I mean... um how many people wanna be anything else? You can only have so many bounty hunter clones. Perhaps it's just the people I know but no one wants to play a Star Wars game if they can't be a jedi. The quests and grinds they got now to become one is just that and we're not gonna waste our time doing it.
I have to say SWG is the worst take on what could have been a AWESOME game. I can't believe their research monkies couldn't figure out most people actually want to be jedi/sith and not NORMAL boring people.
I feel for anyone playing this game.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
That's because it's not the players ruining the game.
It's how Jedi were implemented, and its timing.
The REAL problem with Galaxies has always been that there is little to no content in the professions themselves. Each one desperately requires a rework, however SOE instead announced right out of the starting gate that they were bringing the Space Expansion in 1 year.
What this did was turn the development team totally towards a separate product than the one all these customers had just purchased.
Now, nothing was getting done as far as completing the game, by putting that content in the professions and solidifying their purpose, not to mention just fixing the thousands of bugs in this portion of the game alone.
Then Jedi came along, and every freakin patch after that was trying desperately to control them, to fix their bugs, to add their content...
And nobody had any hope left that their profession of choice would ever get addressed.
Now, SOE has FINALLY turned to starting to fix the professions and the game is going in the right direction...only to find out that SOE instead will be pushing yet another new expansion. In fact, an expansion mostly dedicated...to JEDI! I'm sorry, but the remaining players are just not going to sit still for this.
It is literally the final nail in this coffin. And SOE cannot allow another customer exodus like they got with the CU and the XP nerf/fix, the game is barely riding the line of being financially justified as it is.
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"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
I for one most want to be Boba Fett. He was THE kewlest character from the movies, well top 5 behind Han Solo and I would give him a 4 way Tie with Han, Darth, Luke and Boba Fett.
Jedi is damn kewl of course, and kewler still is the light saber. But Bob Fett is just way too kick-ass to have ignored this post.
Also, don't feel for me, I'ts a damn kewl game and you speak from a position of almost total ignorance, if not total seeing as you haven't even played it. I feel for anyone who talks about things that they have no real clue about. I am still new at the game but at least I have tried it to see that its freakin fun so far. You, by your post, haven't even tried it.
Wepps, I love ya bro, but seriously, how do you figure? I would be very interested to see any shred of proof of this fact even being close to right.
Listen to yourself. You sound like the THOUSANDS of posts during the beta period.
If SOE was paying attention THEN, they would have noticed this.
The CONTENT is in BOBA FETT. HAN SOLO. LUKE.
Right, there it is. People want to experience what THEY did, and that means their professions. Who they are...is their JOB. Solo is a Smuggler. He SMUGGLES for Pete's sake! Does nobody understand this concept?
This was the direction the game should have taken a year before release. Instead, it was led down the development cul-de-sac by Mr. Art-Versus-Content Koster, who misdirected it. It was no different after release, and after FIVE YEARS of development, they aren't even close yet to an actual game!
I've said it before, I'll say it again. As long as SOE keeps going this route, it will never be a game. It's interactive art.
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"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
So what you're saying is, more time spent balancing the professions, Jedi included, and less time injecting new content? If so, I would have to agree, not that I have experience anything like profession unbalance as yet being that I am quite a n00b thus far. I would love it if it were a bit more hardcore, like Bounty Hunters really having to work to find a bounty like Boba had to work to get Solo. I'm sure Boba Fett didn't get like 5 bountys a day, hell even Dog the bounty hunter has to work dang hard to get 3 in a day, and his enemies aren't armed with blasters (usually
).
Is this what you mean?
You couldn't understand because you aren't involved in a business. The development of JUST a base MMO these days costs 10s of millions. In SOE's case, it cost nearly $20 million just to produce it. You need the capital to expend to begin with, and you are getting no return on that capital investment until it's released to the public.
Koster and Co were assuming 1 million accounts, he made the statement before release.
What they got was 250k at the 3 month mark after release, and this is the high water mark because population has been dwindling ever since. This has never been a successful venture even by SOE's own definition.
However, the reason it won't actually have the plug pulled for some time is because it is part of something greater, the Total Access Accounts. This is the only thing keeping it above water at this time.
Let's assume that over time, a total of twice that number at the high water mark have purchased the game. At an average of $35 per copy, you are realizing a revenue on sales of a total of maybe $17.5 million. This is not enough to even cover it's base development cost before release.
Post-release, the team has expanded. It started with 60 developers. Let's assume it has 80 now (this is a conservative figure). These people are being paid, on average, $85,000 per year each. Over 80 developers, that's $6.9 million per year. Then there are the peripheral teams, of huge personnel numbers. CSR, Networking, Marketing, Accounting, Legal, secretarial, maintenance...and we haven't even begun to discuss the MANAGEMENT salaries, which are enormous. And that's just the salaries! How many pieces of computer equipment alone are there? These are not $1500 machines. They are top of the line developer models, complete with half a dozen purchased licenses on EACH. These machines are worth over $10,000 a pop. We haven't even touched on the insurance and litigation costs, which are always a major issue.
Imagine the cost of building and maintaining this server farm alone! And it's in a separate facility! Imagine maintaining the dormitories of personnel in San Jose at their main facility.
At this time, this game is scraping bottom. There are NO MORE THAN 100k active accounts. That means that if those players are paying on average $13.50 per account per month, which is likely, that return in monthly revenues is only showing as roughly $1.4 million and I'm being generous.
I honestly wouldn't want to touch this company if they GAVE it to me. This dog just isn't hunting lol.
I'd have my life in danger just because I'd be forced to fire 2/3s of these people, just to make it barely profitable, then the problems of streamlining an already demoralized team remaining, and nothing is ever actually getting done. I'd have to find new ways to motivate them.
You have to understand, it's not just a couplaguys sitting around in the closet coding like Runescape. This is a massive venture, and it has not paid enough to warrant the effort and expense.
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"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo