I surpose SoE released those figures to you, as from what I understand its still stood at about 250,000 when it was last announced. There is no denying SWG had a mass exodus on a few occations, but its always recovered.
Maths are all good and fair, but not when you just dream up figures. Nobody knows what those figures are, unless I've missed an offical announcement. The only figure I've seen recently was that 1,000,000 boxes had been sold. Even at the now $20 per box (I believe that is the US cost) it adds up to recovering the $20,000,000 you say it cost to develop. So the subscriptions are profit, minus opperational costs.
Originally posted by grapevine NO MORE THAN 100,000? I surpose SoE released those figures to you, as from what I understand its still stood at about 250,000 when it was last announced. There is no denying SWG had a mass exodus on a few occations, but its always recovered. Maths are all good and fair, but not when you just dream up figures. Nobody knows what those figures are, unless I've missed an offical announcement.
Those of us who were around at the time of that high water mark KNOW that this is NOT 250k population.
And that population total was announced at the time.
Some of us can actually count, and are not impressed that SOE seemingly cannot.
The fact is, Runescape sports 300k. This is roughly 3 times what SWG is supporting right now.
Yeah Runescape, go figure.
And let's be reasonable here...SOE has traditionally been notorious with the fudging of figures now and again. If you believe those numbers, then it's your own fault for being gullible. Business operates on realities. Part of these realities mean that the subscriptions are REVENUES, not profits. Revenues minus operational costs = profit.
Now to one of those realities. The number of boxes sold includes the expansions, don't let them pull the wool over your eyes.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Originally posted by grapevine NO MORE THAN 100,000? I surpose SoE released those figures to you, as from what I understand its still stood at about 250,000 when it was last announced. There is no denying SWG had a mass exodus on a few occations, but its always recovered. Maths are all good and fair, but not when you just dream up figures. Nobody knows what those figures are, unless I've missed an offical announcement.
Those of us who were around at the time of that high water mark KNOW that this is NOT 250k population.
And that population total was announced at the time.
Some of us can actually count, and are not impressed that SOE seemingly cannot.
The fact is, Runespace sports 300k. This is roughly 3 times what SWG is supprting right now.
Yeah Runescape, go figure.
No, us long termers don't know.
What I personally have observed is the failure of old guild, so there is no doubt people have left. However, they are replaced by newer ones and they are growing fast. There has also been a shift in locations where people hang out.
Post JTL, the game was "dead". It recovered, which personally did make me mad as I really hated SWG after they pulled the devs from live to implement it (yes, I left). The week or two post CU were extremely dead (when I returned), but yet again it recovered.
Population is high at the moment (observed and stated by many), that's a fact known by anyone who is playing and moves around. That is providing they aren't within their own bubble thinking because they have less "old timer" friends online that there can't possibly be new players.
As for the boxes sold vs profit. I can't honestly remeber if the statement did say it included expantions. However, even if it did the expantions had a retail cost of around $25.
Originally posted by grapevine Originally posted by WeppsOriginally posted by grapevineNO MORE THAN 100,000?I surpose SoE released those figures to you, as from what I understand its still stood at about 250,000 when it was last announced. There is no denying SWG had a mass exodus on a few occations, but its always recovered.Maths are all good and fair, but not when you just dream up figures. Nobody knows what those figures are, unless I've missed an offical announcement. Those of us who were around at the time of that high water mark KNOW that this is NOT 250k population. And that population total was announced at the time. Some of us can actually count, and are not impressed that SOE seemingly cannot. The fact is, Runespace sports 300k. This is roughly 3 times what SWG is supprting right now. Yeah Runescape, go figure. No, us long termers don't know. What I personally have observed is the failure of old guild, so there is no doubt people have left. However, they are replaced by newer ones and they are growing fast. There has also been a shift in locations where people hang out. Post JTL, the game was "dead". It recovered, which personally did make me mad as I really hated SWG after they pulled the devs from live to implement it (yes, I left). The week or two post CU were extremely dead (when I returned), but yet again it recovered. Population is high at the moment (observed and stated by many), that's a fact known by anyone who is playing and moves around. That is providing they aren't within their own bubble thinking because they have less "old timer" friends online that there can't possibly be new players.
Actually, population is not high at the moment. Population is concentrated in certain areas. Mostly, Mos Eisley, Theed, and Dantooine. There are some more on Kashyyyk, those are the new players not in Mos Eisley.
In the old days when that population total was announced as 250k, they existed all over the galaxy except Rori. Player Cities included lots of housing, like it does now, but they also had people in them. They no longer do.
Are they in space? Been there done that. I ran into the odd player. And i am talking about the two most populated servers in the game, Ahazi and Bria where my primaries have aways been.
Somebody is lying to you. And I can camp here all day telling you it's not me, but you are just going to choose to believe what you feel the right information, even in the face of the fact that SOE has been lying to us on a monthly basis for more than 2 years.
There is nothing I can do to change this fact, or your mind.
So this discussion is over.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Sorry but nobody is lieing to me, as I see it. People are all over the place and I see a lot more people dotted around than pre CU were it was Coronet central.
Maybe you should actually play instead of hiding somewhere. I can only state what I see and for Bria its busy and more so than it has been. I surpose evil SoE have rigged there server loading to, as Bria has been on extreme heavy load for quite some time. Surly that is the only way your claim of population being low is true.
Originally posted by grapevine NO MORE THAN 100,000? I surpose SoE released those figures to you, as from what I understand its still stood at about 250,000 when it was last announced. There is no denying SWG had a mass exodus on a few occations, but its always recovered. Maths are all good and fair, but not when you just dream up figures. Nobody knows what those figures are, unless I've missed an offical announcement.
Those of us who were around at the time of that high water mark KNOW that this is NOT 250k population.
And that population total was announced at the time.
Some of us can actually count, and are not impressed that SOE seemingly cannot.
The fact is, Runespace sports 300k. This is roughly 3 times what SWG is supprting right now.
Yeah Runescape, go figure.
No, us long termers don't know.
What I personally have observed is the failure of old guild, so there is no doubt people have left. However, they are replaced by newer ones and they are growing fast. There has also been a shift in locations where people hang out.
Post JTL, the game was "dead". It recovered, which personally did make me mad as I really hated SWG after they pulled the devs from live to implement it (yes, I left). The week or two post CU were extremely dead (when I returned), but yet again it recovered.
Population is high at the moment (observed and stated by many), that's a fact known by anyone who is playing and moves around. That is providing they aren't within their own bubble thinking because they have less "old timer" friends online that there can't possibly be new players.
It could also be the pro SWG players seeing higher numbers then actually are as well.
I played for two years and watched the numbers falling. I remember when Cnet and Theed were packed plus all the other cities were full. Even Rori was styling. People everywhere. But slowly the numbers started dropping. And this was on several servers. Not just one.
Then i came back a few weeks ago to see the CU and it just didnt seem to be all that populated. Now maybe I picked the lowest pop servers. Sinec it was random what are the chances of that? Maybe there was a town meeting. Maybe everyone was hiding in one house. Maybe the players were out getting their nails done. I dont know. But of the servers I checked most were ghost towns.
And maybe its like you said and us naysayers cant see the new population because we arent seeing our old friends. But turn about is fair play. Maybe the pro SWGers dont want to see the low numbers either.... Could be... dunno. Wont ever know since SOE is full of liars anyway. Any number they give you, you have to assume is an utter lie.
But you said there are new players right? Filling the void? Well if that is true then what about the 1 million franchizes? If in fact is like Erillion explains then we got a black area here where your "alot of new players" are coming in but not that many franchizes are going out. How is that explained?
Plus dont forget the double and triple accounts. Alot of players have them. Personal opinion (I said opinion) is about 20% are double or triple accounts.
Originally posted by grapevine Sorry but nobody is lieing to me, as I see it. People are all over the place and I see a lot more people dotted around than pre CU were it was Coronet central. Maybe you should actually play instead of hiding somewhere, or maybe you are just happen to reside on a server that has lower population. I can only state what I see and for Bria its busy and more so than it has been.
More than it has been.
But nowhere near what it was at the 3 month mark, which was the time of the first declaration of 250k accounts.
Like I said, believe what you want. Nobody could convince you of the truth, and I'm not about to surrender facts gleaned from expensive market analyses for free. If you want that information I'll be happy to forward it to you at cost...$3500.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Originally posted by grapevine Sorry but nobody is lieing to me, as I see it. People are all over the place and I see a lot more people dotted around than pre CU were it was Coronet central. Maybe you should actually play instead of hiding somewhere, or maybe you are just happen to reside on a server that has lower population. I can only state what I see and for Bria its busy and more so than it has been.
More than it has been.
But nowhere near what it was at the 3 month mark, which was the time of the first declaration of 250k accounts.
Like I said, believe what you want. Nobody could convince you of the truth, and I'm not about to surrender facts gleaned from expensive market analyses for free. If you want that information I'll be happy to forward it to you at cost...$3500.
Definitly no disagreement with it not being as busy as it was at launch, that is always the way. Although I'm pretty sure higher numbers than 250,000 appeared after that first announcement.
Originally posted by anarchyart Originally posted by Wepps You couldn't understand because you aren't involved in a business. BZZT. Wrongo. I am the manager of the business I currently work for, and have been involved in such businesses much of my adult life. Just wanna know where you get the 100k current active subs from?
Then you should be well aware of the fact that you have to do your own research in order to find facts in a sea of lies, of which I suspect this is one.
So, do your own research, and stop relying on the 'information' of a desperate company taken to deceiving their customers as common practice.
Or, your other option is you can come to me and like I said I would be more than happy to provide the complete industry market analysis for the price I paid for it.
Edit - I'll even throw in the shipping. it would be worth it to me to get back some of that expenditure.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
I personally feel its about 150k. But that is just what I think from my time in game.
But it doesnt matter if its 100k, 150, or 250k. Its still a sad sign of just how horrible the state of this game is in. It could have had 1 million. Hell could have had 5 million if they had tried. But they didnt.
Fat lazy developers sitting on their yearly salary doing as little as work as possible. They get paid either way long as they bring in their quota for SPE and LA.
And when I say developer I mean everyone associated in the developement of this game that got paid for it.
Originally posted by grapevine NO MORE THAN 100,000? I surpose SoE released those figures to you, as from what I understand its still stood at about 250,000 when it was last announced. There is no denying SWG had a mass exodus on a few occations, but its always recovered. Maths are all good and fair, but not when you just dream up figures. Nobody knows what those figures are, unless I've missed an offical announcement.
Those of us who were around at the time of that high water mark KNOW that this is NOT 250k population.
And that population total was announced at the time.
Some of us can actually count, and are not impressed that SOE seemingly cannot.
The fact is, Runespace sports 300k. This is roughly 3 times what SWG is supprting right now.
Yeah Runescape, go figure.
No, us long termers don't know.
What I personally have observed is the failure of old guild, so there is no doubt people have left. However, they are replaced by newer ones and they are growing fast. There has also been a shift in locations where people hang out.
Post JTL, the game was "dead". It recovered, which personally did make me mad as I really hated SWG after they pulled the devs from live to implement it (yes, I left). The week or two post CU were extremely dead (when I returned), but yet again it recovered.
Population is high at the moment (observed and stated by many), that's a fact known by anyone who is playing and moves around. That is providing they aren't within their own bubble thinking because they have less "old timer" friends online that there can't possibly be new players.
It could also be the pro SWG players seeing higher numbers then actually are as well.
I played for two years and watched the numbers falling. I remember when Cnet and Theed were packed plus all the other cities were full. Even Rori was styling. People everywhere. But slowly the numbers started dropping. And this was on several servers. Not just one.
Then i came back a few weeks ago to see the CU and it just didnt seem to be all that populated. Now maybe I picked the lowest pop servers. Sinec it was random what are the chances of that? Maybe there was a town meeting. Maybe everyone was hiding in one house. Maybe the players were out getting their nails done. I dont know. But of the servers I checked most were ghost towns.
And maybe its like you said and us naysayers cant see the new population because we arent seeing our old friends. But turn about is fair play. Maybe the pro SWGers dont want to see the low numbers either.... Could be... dunno. Wont ever know since SOE is full of liars anyway. Any number they give you, you have to assume is an utter lie.
But you said there are new players right? Filling the void? Well if that is true then what about the 1 million franchizes? If in fact is like Erillion explains then we got a black area here where your "alot of new players" are coming in but not that many franchizes are going out. How is that explained?
Plus dont forget the double and triple accounts. Alot of players have them. Personal opinion (I said opinion) is about 20% are double or triple accounts.
Kai
People are just more spread out now. I remember this time last year npc cities where to focal points. They still are mostly. Theed (on Bria) is still really busy and Bestine is still full of PvPers. What I have seen in the past few months, which I hadn't really seen before it the growth in popularity of player cities becomming focal points. I've been quite surprised to visit a few of them to discover they have turned into hunting grounds, very much like Nym's and the Mining Outpost on Dantooine.
As for multiple account, there is no denying the SoE includes them in its published figures. It always has and multiple accounts have always existed. However, unless you are very talented you can only play one at a time (other than botting). So the affect on the perception of active subscribers isn't affected by it.
People are just more spread out now. I remember this time last year npc cities where to focal points. They still are mostly. Theed (on Bria) is still really busy and Bestine is still full of PvPers. What I have seen in the past few months, which I hadn't really seen before it the growth in popularity of player cities becomming focal points. I've been quite surprised to visit a few of them to discover they have turned into hunting grounds, very much like Nym's and the Mining Outpost on Dantooine. As for multiple account, there is no denying the SoE includes them in its published figures. It always has and multiple accounts have always existed. However, unless you are very talented you can only play one at a time (other than botting). So the affect on the perception of active subscribers isn't affected by it.
True, but I am including the multiple accounts. I'm just talking about accounts not who owns them
As far as revenues are concerned, it doesn't matter.
What I didn't even begin to describe were the costs of developing the expansions. This cost is minimising for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that I perceive to be a major problem of the post-release management of the game to be too much concentration on those expansions, and not enough on the basic game format.
This has meant a tremendous loss of the customer base in general due to this management philosophy.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Originally posted by Scorpes Wepps, shame on you, how could you forget the millions they spent on advertising too
Dammit, I was saving that one for the next argument about how SWG is making so much profit.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
People are just more spread out now. I remember this time last year npc cities where to focal points. They still are mostly. Theed (on Bria) is still really busy and Bestine is still full of PvPers. What I have seen in the past few months, which I hadn't really seen before it the growth in popularity of player cities becomming focal points. I've been quite surprised to visit a few of them to discover they have turned into hunting grounds, very much like Nym's and the Mining Outpost on Dantooine. As for multiple account, there is no denying the SoE includes them in its published figures. It always has and multiple accounts have always existed. However, unless you are very talented you can only play one at a time (other than botting). So the affect on the perception of active subscribers isn't affected by it.
True, but I am including the multiple accounts. I'm just talking about accounts not who owns them
As far as revenues are concerned, it doesn't matter.
What I didn't even begin to describe were the costs of developing the expansions. This cost is minimising for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that I perceive to be a major problem of the post-release management of the game to be too much concentration on those expansions, and not enough on the basic game format.
This has meant a tremendous loss of the customer base in general due to this management philosophy.
You still can't come up with any valid figures, without knowing the facts. Do you know the development costs? Do you know the (factual) annual revenue? Do you know SoE's expenditures and overheads? You can only make assumptions. Personnally I don't think SWG has made a lot of money, but I do believe its in profit.
SoE's managment philosophy hasn't resulted in a loss within the customer base, its caused a high turn over of customers. Granted neither are good, but they aren't the same.
Originally posted by grapevine Originally posted by Wepps People are just more spread out now. I remember this time last year npc cities where to focal points. They still are mostly. Theed (on Bria) is still really busy and Bestine is still full of PvPers. What I have seen in the past few months, which I hadn't really seen before it the growth in popularity of player cities becomming focal points. I've been quite surprised to visit a few of them to discover they have turned into hunting grounds, very much like Nym's and the Mining Outpost on Dantooine.As for multiple account, there is no denying the SoE includes them in its published figures. It always has and multiple accounts have always existed. However, unless you are very talented you can only play one at a time (other than botting). So the affect on the perception of active subscribers isn't affected by it.True, but I am including the multiple accounts. I'm just talking about accounts not who owns them As far as revenues are concerned, it doesn't matter. What I didn't even begin to describe were the costs of developing the expansions. This cost is minimising for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that I perceive to be a major problem of the post-release management of the game to be too much concentration on those expansions, and not enough on the basic game format. This has meant a tremendous loss of the customer base in general due to this management philosophy. You still can't come up with any valid figures, without knowing the fact. Do you know the development costs? Do you know the (factual) annual revenue? Do you know SoE's expenditures and overheads? You can only make assumptions. SoE's managment philosophy hasn't resulted in a loss within the customer base, its caused a high turn over of customers. Granted neither are good, but they aren't the same.
No matter what they tell you, or how you get your information, you are always making assumptions. How close those guesses are are determined entirely by your accuracy and the accuracy of the information you are possessing.
As to the $20 million figure to develop the initial product, this figure comes from SOE in beta, and was revealed publically. The only confirmation I can justify given the 100k player account figure, is by direct observation given information I have confirmed in the past, in comparison to what exists today, in conjunction with other analyses.
Proving it to you would be meaningless - because I can tell you anything, and believe me, none of this is something you can simply link to on the Internet, information of this nature is not found there.
How quickly people forget the last time their god lied to them.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
You still can't come up with any valid figures, without knowing the fact. Do you know the development costs? Do you know the (factual) annual revenue? Do you know SoE's expenditures and overheads? You can only make assumptions. SoE's managment philosophy hasn't resulted in a loss within the customer base, its caused a high turn over of customers. Granted neither are good, but they aren't the same.
No matter what they tell you, or how you get your information, you are always making assumptions. How close those guesses are are determined entirely by your accuracy and the accuracy of the information you are possessing. As to the $20 million figure to develop the initial product, this figure comes from SOE in beta, and was revealed publically. The only confirmation I can justify given the 100k player account figure, is by direct observation given information I have confirmed in the past, in comparison to what exists today, in conjunction with other analyses. Proving it to you would be meaningless - because I can tell you anything, and believe me, none of this is something you can simply link to on the Internet, information of this nature is not found there. How quickly people forget the last time their god lied to them.
So the only real figure you have is the intial development cost. The rest are simply your beliefs, which is exactly what I'm saying. You can't make a true assement as you don't have the real figures. More so, you have none (but one) you can actually work with. The last annoucement from SoE was way above your 100,000 accounts and they have already stated Post CU figures balanced with Pre CU ones within weeks of it going live. So that figure in itself is inaccurate.
So the only real figure you have is the intial development cost. The rest are simply your beliefs, which is exactly what I'm saying. You can't make an true assement as you don't have the real figures. More so, you have none (but one) you can actually work with. The last annoucement from SoE was way above your 100,000 accounts and they have already stated Post CU figures balanced with Pre CU ones within weeks of it going live. So that figure in itself is inaccurate.
And one way or the other, both of us are utilizing the information from a known unreliable source as a basis for those judgments, and coming up with the opposite results.
I maintain my observations are more accurate, given my experience deep into beta and into the release. THIS is where I claim superior knowledge. In those observations.
As to any other specific information, I can have that in your possession in less than a week for the right price. I will not reveal anything else I have in my possession without returning my costs for securing it.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
So the only real figure you have is the intial development cost. The rest are simply your beliefs, which is exactly what I'm saying. You can't make an true assement as you don't have the real figures. More so, you have none (but one) you can actually work with. The last annoucement from SoE was way above your 100,000 accounts and they have already stated Post CU figures balanced with Pre CU ones within weeks of it going live. So that figure in itself is inaccurate.
And one way or the other, both of us are utilizing the information from a known unreliable source as a basis for those judgments, and coming up with the opposite results.
I maintain my observations are more accurate, given my experience deep into beta and into the release. THIS is where I claim superior knowledge. In those observations.
As to any other specific information, I can have that in your possession in less than a week for the right price. I will not reveal anything else I have in my possession without returning my costs for securing it.
I wouldn't say its superior knowledge, just a different option. Which you are entitled to.
I wasn't around for beta, but I was for the launch period.
About the comparison between SWG and Runescape ... its not hard to have so many subscribers if you offer a game for free or for a fee one-third the industry standard ! Check it out ... its not my kinda game (grafics .. yuk) but I guess it has some nice gameplay. It looks to me like the game profits from WoW player spillover like SWG does too.
RuneScape is a Java-based MMOG that can be played for free. However, for $5/month subscribers can access many more features, new areas, items, and monsters, and so on. It is important to note that the chart records actual subscribers, not the free accounts. Lately the games growth rate has increased sharply; as of June 2005 RuneScape has reached almost 380,000 subscribers. http://www.runescape.com/
I quit back during the Combat downgrade, like most people, and haven't came back or plan on coming back till its pulled or a new server CU free is made.
Originally posted by Erillion About the comparison between SWG and Runescape ... its not hard to have so many subscribers if you offer a game for free or for a fee one-third the industry standard ! Check it out ... its not my kinda game (grafics .. yuk) but I guess it has some nice gameplay. It looks to me like the game profits from WoW player spillover like SWG does too. Have fun Erillion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RuneScape (Accuracy Rating: A) RuneScape is a Java-based MMOG that can be played for free. However, for $5/month subscribers can access many more features, new areas, items, and monsters, and so on. It is important to note that the chart records actual subscribers, not the free accounts. Lately the game’s growth rate has increased sharply; as of June 2005 RuneScape has reached almost 380,000 subscribers. http://www.runescape.com/
Then explain to me why Anarchy Online's new 'fee structure' is still not working?
Feel free to advise us why when Elnator quit, he went to Eve Online instead of Anarchy Online?
It's not all that hard to see that it's not all about the money.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
A while back, I took the opportunity to download the free version.
While playing I noticed a number of things that Galaxies doesn't have, as a good comparison. Really, the very first thing I noticed was the graphics were lame, but at least playable. It took some getting used to for me, and i never really did get used to them, but I was there to test the game and make comparisons, ask questions.
1 - At the time, the tutorial was superior to Galaxies. It taught you everything you needed to know to survive, and you gained levels by doing so and got some loot.
You were then dropped into the game after learning the mechanics of it, and left to your own devices.
2 - The population was extremely helpful. Again, at the time this was not the case in Galaxies. During that period, people would go around with HELPER up over their heads, and you'd end up finding yourself griefed by some kid.
In Runescape, high levels camp the newbie zone and actually help you out. I logged in for the first time, and had me a high level set of armor on me! That was danged useful.
3 - Gameplay is vastly superior to Galaxies, even today.
The reason is, not only are there just TONS of things that you can do, which means massive options in the content, but also that the players are rewarded on a constant basis, for every action they take, and this is the primary reason the game is fun. Everything from chopping wood, to building campfires, to cooking, to crafting spells, fishing, you name it. All available to the new player, all rewarded by level additions early into your experience.
There is no limitation on your build. Therefore, again, massive options for the new player to do what you want.
There is no 'wrong' way to make your build. No matter what you do you are free to recover by continual play. You still get experience for hunting the newbie mobs, so you are free to level up the low skills in that fashion.
4 - They have included all levels of content. They started with the newbie, where there is massive content, and then proceeded to the solo game, the group game, the epic game. They understood what drives the population, and gave it to them.
Overall, the TWO developers of Runescape have over time built the ONLY MMO that has consistently been increasing in population! Runescape is actually a GAME. Very rare these days, as developers have been concentrating more on art than content, and THIS is why Runescape is popular.
Did I mention that the version I was testing was the free one?
The only advantages of Galaxies is the Venue - Star Wars, and superior graphics and sound effects, as well as the music of John Williams that go along with that venue. These are the things that made Star Wars that much more interesting, John Williams and Industrial Light and Magic.
But like George Lucas, they forgot about the MEAT. The CONTENT, even in the movies, was losing quality fast in episodes I to III, and you see precisely the same problem right here in Galaxies.
It's that content that makes Runescape superior, and people are onto SOE these days. They just don't want to pay for interactive art anymore. They want a game delivered. That's what they paid for after all.
...even if the client is free, and the subscription $5.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Last night I transferred all my goodies to my station pass account with the help of Erillion (indebted to you, thanks mang) and now I get the pleasure of doing the n00by tutorial quest again. Just wanted to add this, as I think it is the best tutorial/n00by quest out there. Some people would hate that they have to play through this again to get your speeder, but I said to Erillion "Woohoo I get to do the n00by quests again lol".
Comments
NO MORE THAN 100,000?
I surpose SoE released those figures to you, as from what I understand its still stood at about 250,000 when it was last announced. There is no denying SWG had a mass exodus on a few occations, but its always recovered.
Maths are all good and fair, but not when you just dream up figures. Nobody knows what those figures are, unless I've missed an offical announcement. The only figure I've seen recently was that 1,000,000 boxes had been sold. Even at the now $20 per box (I believe that is the US cost) it adds up to recovering the $20,000,000 you say it cost to develop. So the subscriptions are profit, minus opperational costs.
Those of us who were around at the time of that high water mark KNOW that this is NOT 250k population.
And that population total was announced at the time.
Some of us can actually count, and are not impressed that SOE seemingly cannot.
The fact is, Runescape sports 300k. This is roughly 3 times what SWG is supporting right now.
Yeah Runescape, go figure.
And let's be reasonable here...SOE has traditionally been notorious with the fudging of figures now and again. If you believe those numbers, then it's your own fault for being gullible. Business operates on realities. Part of these realities mean that the subscriptions are REVENUES, not profits. Revenues minus operational costs = profit.
Now to one of those realities. The number of boxes sold includes the expansions, don't let them pull the wool over your eyes.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Those of us who were around at the time of that high water mark KNOW that this is NOT 250k population.
And that population total was announced at the time.
Some of us can actually count, and are not impressed that SOE seemingly cannot.
The fact is, Runespace sports 300k. This is roughly 3 times what SWG is supprting right now.
Yeah Runescape, go figure.
No, us long termers don't know.
What I personally have observed is the failure of old guild, so there is no doubt people have left. However, they are replaced by newer ones and they are growing fast. There has also been a shift in locations where people hang out.
Post JTL, the game was "dead". It recovered, which personally did make me mad as I really hated SWG after they pulled the devs from live to implement it (yes, I left). The week or two post CU were extremely dead (when I returned), but yet again it recovered.
Population is high at the moment (observed and stated by many), that's a fact known by anyone who is playing and moves around. That is providing they aren't within their own bubble thinking because they have less "old timer" friends online that there can't possibly be new players.
As for the boxes sold vs profit. I can't honestly remeber if the statement did say it included expantions. However, even if it did the expantions had a retail cost of around $25.
Actually, population is not high at the moment. Population is concentrated in certain areas. Mostly, Mos Eisley, Theed, and Dantooine. There are some more on Kashyyyk, those are the new players not in Mos Eisley.
In the old days when that population total was announced as 250k, they existed all over the galaxy except Rori. Player Cities included lots of housing, like it does now, but they also had people in them. They no longer do.
Are they in space? Been there done that. I ran into the odd player. And i am talking about the two most populated servers in the game, Ahazi and Bria where my primaries have aways been.
Somebody is lying to you. And I can camp here all day telling you it's not me, but you are just going to choose to believe what you feel the right information, even in the face of the fact that SOE has been lying to us on a monthly basis for more than 2 years.
There is nothing I can do to change this fact, or your mind.
So this discussion is over.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Sorry but nobody is lieing to me, as I see it. People are all over the place and I see a lot more people dotted around than pre CU were it was Coronet central.
Maybe you should actually play instead of hiding somewhere. I can only state what I see and for Bria its busy and more so than it has been. I surpose evil SoE have rigged there server loading to, as Bria has been on extreme heavy load for quite some time. Surly that is the only way your claim of population being low is true.
Those of us who were around at the time of that high water mark KNOW that this is NOT 250k population.
And that population total was announced at the time.
Some of us can actually count, and are not impressed that SOE seemingly cannot.
The fact is, Runespace sports 300k. This is roughly 3 times what SWG is supprting right now.
Yeah Runescape, go figure.
No, us long termers don't know.
What I personally have observed is the failure of old guild, so there is no doubt people have left. However, they are replaced by newer ones and they are growing fast. There has also been a shift in locations where people hang out.
Post JTL, the game was "dead". It recovered, which personally did make me mad as I really hated SWG after they pulled the devs from live to implement it (yes, I left). The week or two post CU were extremely dead (when I returned), but yet again it recovered.
Population is high at the moment (observed and stated by many), that's a fact known by anyone who is playing and moves around. That is providing they aren't within their own bubble thinking because they have less "old timer" friends online that there can't possibly be new players.
It could also be the pro SWG players seeing higher numbers then actually are as well.
I played for two years and watched the numbers falling. I remember when Cnet and Theed were packed plus all the other cities were full. Even Rori was styling. People everywhere. But slowly the numbers started dropping. And this was on several servers. Not just one.
Then i came back a few weeks ago to see the CU and it just didnt seem to be all that populated. Now maybe I picked the lowest pop servers. Sinec it was random what are the chances of that? Maybe there was a town meeting. Maybe everyone was hiding in one house. Maybe the players were out getting their nails done. I dont know. But of the servers I checked most were ghost towns.
And maybe its like you said and us naysayers cant see the new population because we arent seeing our old friends. But turn about is fair play. Maybe the pro SWGers dont want to see the low numbers either.... Could be... dunno. Wont ever know since SOE is full of liars anyway. Any number they give you, you have to assume is an utter lie.
But you said there are new players right? Filling the void? Well if that is true then what about the 1 million franchizes? If in fact is like Erillion explains then we got a black area here where your "alot of new players" are coming in but not that many franchizes are going out. How is that explained?
Plus dont forget the double and triple accounts. Alot of players have them. Personal opinion (I said opinion) is about 20% are double or triple accounts.
Kai
More than it has been.
But nowhere near what it was at the 3 month mark, which was the time of the first declaration of 250k accounts.
Like I said, believe what you want. Nobody could convince you of the truth, and I'm not about to surrender facts gleaned from expensive market analyses for free. If you want that information I'll be happy to forward it to you at cost...$3500.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
BZZT. Wrongo. I am the manager of the business I currently work for, and have been involved in such businesses much of my adult life.
Just wanna know where you get the 100k current active subs from?
More than it has been.
But nowhere near what it was at the 3 month mark, which was the time of the first declaration of 250k accounts.
Like I said, believe what you want. Nobody could convince you of the truth, and I'm not about to surrender facts gleaned from expensive market analyses for free. If you want that information I'll be happy to forward it to you at cost...$3500.
Definitly no disagreement with it not being as busy as it was at launch, that is always the way. Although I'm pretty sure higher numbers than 250,000 appeared after that first announcement.
Then you should be well aware of the fact that you have to do your own research in order to find facts in a sea of lies, of which I suspect this is one.
So, do your own research, and stop relying on the 'information' of a desperate company taken to deceiving their customers as common practice.
Or, your other option is you can come to me and like I said I would be more than happy to provide the complete industry market analysis for the price I paid for it.
Edit - I'll even throw in the shipping. it would be worth it to me to get back some of that expenditure.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
I personally feel its about 150k. But that is just what I think from my time in game.
But it doesnt matter if its 100k, 150, or 250k. Its still a sad sign of just how horrible the state of this game is in. It could have had 1 million. Hell could have had 5 million if they had tried. But they didnt.
Fat lazy developers sitting on their yearly salary doing as little as work as possible. They get paid either way long as they bring in their quota for SPE and LA.
And when I say developer I mean everyone associated in the developement of this game that got paid for it.
Kai
Those of us who were around at the time of that high water mark KNOW that this is NOT 250k population.
And that population total was announced at the time.
Some of us can actually count, and are not impressed that SOE seemingly cannot.
The fact is, Runespace sports 300k. This is roughly 3 times what SWG is supprting right now.
Yeah Runescape, go figure.
No, us long termers don't know.
What I personally have observed is the failure of old guild, so there is no doubt people have left. However, they are replaced by newer ones and they are growing fast. There has also been a shift in locations where people hang out.
Post JTL, the game was "dead". It recovered, which personally did make me mad as I really hated SWG after they pulled the devs from live to implement it (yes, I left). The week or two post CU were extremely dead (when I returned), but yet again it recovered.
Population is high at the moment (observed and stated by many), that's a fact known by anyone who is playing and moves around. That is providing they aren't within their own bubble thinking because they have less "old timer" friends online that there can't possibly be new players.
It could also be the pro SWG players seeing higher numbers then actually are as well.
I played for two years and watched the numbers falling. I remember when Cnet and Theed were packed plus all the other cities were full. Even Rori was styling. People everywhere. But slowly the numbers started dropping. And this was on several servers. Not just one.
Then i came back a few weeks ago to see the CU and it just didnt seem to be all that populated. Now maybe I picked the lowest pop servers. Sinec it was random what are the chances of that? Maybe there was a town meeting. Maybe everyone was hiding in one house. Maybe the players were out getting their nails done. I dont know. But of the servers I checked most were ghost towns.
And maybe its like you said and us naysayers cant see the new population because we arent seeing our old friends. But turn about is fair play. Maybe the pro SWGers dont want to see the low numbers either.... Could be... dunno. Wont ever know since SOE is full of liars anyway. Any number they give you, you have to assume is an utter lie.
But you said there are new players right? Filling the void? Well if that is true then what about the 1 million franchizes? If in fact is like Erillion explains then we got a black area here where your "alot of new players" are coming in but not that many franchizes are going out. How is that explained?
Plus dont forget the double and triple accounts. Alot of players have them. Personal opinion (I said opinion) is about 20% are double or triple accounts.
Kai
People are just more spread out now. I remember this time last year npc cities where to focal points. They still are mostly. Theed (on Bria) is still really busy and Bestine is still full of PvPers. What I have seen in the past few months, which I hadn't really seen before it the growth in popularity of player cities becomming focal points. I've been quite surprised to visit a few of them to discover they have turned into hunting grounds, very much like Nym's and the Mining Outpost on Dantooine.
As for multiple account, there is no denying the SoE includes them in its published figures. It always has and multiple accounts have always existed. However, unless you are very talented you can only play one at a time (other than botting). So the affect on the perception of active subscribers isn't affected by it.
True, but I am including the multiple accounts. I'm just talking about accounts not who owns them
As far as revenues are concerned, it doesn't matter.
What I didn't even begin to describe were the costs of developing the expansions. This cost is minimising for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that I perceive to be a major problem of the post-release management of the game to be too much concentration on those expansions, and not enough on the basic game format.
This has meant a tremendous loss of the customer base in general due to this management philosophy.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Dammit, I was saving that one for the next argument about how SWG is making so much profit.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
True, but I am including the multiple accounts. I'm just talking about accounts not who owns them
As far as revenues are concerned, it doesn't matter.
What I didn't even begin to describe were the costs of developing the expansions. This cost is minimising for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that I perceive to be a major problem of the post-release management of the game to be too much concentration on those expansions, and not enough on the basic game format.
This has meant a tremendous loss of the customer base in general due to this management philosophy.
You still can't come up with any valid figures, without knowing the facts. Do you know the development costs? Do you know the (factual) annual revenue? Do you know SoE's expenditures and overheads? You can only make assumptions. Personnally I don't think SWG has made a lot of money, but I do believe its in profit.
SoE's managment philosophy hasn't resulted in a loss within the customer base, its caused a high turn over of customers. Granted neither are good, but they aren't the same.
No matter what they tell you, or how you get your information, you are always making assumptions. How close those guesses are are determined entirely by your accuracy and the accuracy of the information you are possessing.
As to the $20 million figure to develop the initial product, this figure comes from SOE in beta, and was revealed publically. The only confirmation I can justify given the 100k player account figure, is by direct observation given information I have confirmed in the past, in comparison to what exists today, in conjunction with other analyses.
Proving it to you would be meaningless - because I can tell you anything, and believe me, none of this is something you can simply link to on the Internet, information of this nature is not found there.
How quickly people forget the last time their god lied to them.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
And one way or the other, both of us are utilizing the information from a known unreliable source as a basis for those judgments, and coming up with the opposite results.
I maintain my observations are more accurate, given my experience deep into beta and into the release. THIS is where I claim superior knowledge. In those observations.
As to any other specific information, I can have that in your possession in less than a week for the right price. I will not reveal anything else I have in my possession without returning my costs for securing it.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
And one way or the other, both of us are utilizing the information from a known unreliable source as a basis for those judgments, and coming up with the opposite results.
I maintain my observations are more accurate, given my experience deep into beta and into the release. THIS is where I claim superior knowledge. In those observations.
As to any other specific information, I can have that in your possession in less than a week for the right price. I will not reveal anything else I have in my possession without returning my costs for securing it.
I wouldn't say its superior knowledge, just a different option. Which you are entitled to.
I wasn't around for beta, but I was for the launch period.
About the comparison between SWG and Runescape ... its not hard to have so many subscribers if you offer a game for free or for a fee one-third the industry standard ! Check it out ... its not my kinda game (grafics .. yuk) but I guess it has some nice gameplay. It looks to me like the game profits from WoW player spillover like SWG does too.
Have fun
Erillion
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RuneScape (Accuracy Rating: A)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
RuneScape is a Java-based MMOG that can be played for free. However, for $5/month subscribers can access many more features, new areas, items, and monsters, and so on. It is important to note that the chart records actual subscribers, not the free accounts. Lately the games growth rate has increased sharply; as of June 2005 RuneScape has reached almost 380,000 subscribers. http://www.runescape.com/
Then explain to me why Anarchy Online's new 'fee structure' is still not working?
Feel free to advise us why when Elnator quit, he went to Eve Online instead of Anarchy Online?
It's not all that hard to see that it's not all about the money.
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"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
If Runescape sucked, 'free' would not be enough.
A while back, I took the opportunity to download the free version.
While playing I noticed a number of things that Galaxies doesn't have, as a good comparison. Really, the very first thing I noticed was the graphics were lame, but at least playable. It took some getting used to for me, and i never really did get used to them, but I was there to test the game and make comparisons, ask questions.
1 - At the time, the tutorial was superior to Galaxies. It taught you everything you needed to know to survive, and you gained levels by doing so and got some loot.
You were then dropped into the game after learning the mechanics of it, and left to your own devices.
2 - The population was extremely helpful. Again, at the time this was not the case in Galaxies. During that period, people would go around with HELPER up over their heads, and you'd end up finding yourself griefed by some kid.
In Runescape, high levels camp the newbie zone and actually help you out. I logged in for the first time, and had me a high level set of armor on me! That was danged useful.
3 - Gameplay is vastly superior to Galaxies, even today.
The reason is, not only are there just TONS of things that you can do, which means massive options in the content, but also that the players are rewarded on a constant basis, for every action they take, and this is the primary reason the game is fun. Everything from chopping wood, to building campfires, to cooking, to crafting spells, fishing, you name it. All available to the new player, all rewarded by level additions early into your experience.
There is no limitation on your build. Therefore, again, massive options for the new player to do what you want.
There is no 'wrong' way to make your build. No matter what you do you are free to recover by continual play. You still get experience for hunting the newbie mobs, so you are free to level up the low skills in that fashion.
4 - They have included all levels of content. They started with the newbie, where there is massive content, and then proceeded to the solo game, the group game, the epic game. They understood what drives the population, and gave it to them.
Overall, the TWO developers of Runescape have over time built the ONLY MMO that has consistently been increasing in population! Runescape is actually a GAME. Very rare these days, as developers have been concentrating more on art than content, and THIS is why Runescape is popular.
Did I mention that the version I was testing was the free one?
The only advantages of Galaxies is the Venue - Star Wars, and superior graphics and sound effects, as well as the music of John Williams that go along with that venue. These are the things that made Star Wars that much more interesting, John Williams and Industrial Light and Magic.
But like George Lucas, they forgot about the MEAT. The CONTENT, even in the movies, was losing quality fast in episodes I to III, and you see precisely the same problem right here in Galaxies.
It's that content that makes Runescape superior, and people are onto SOE these days. They just don't want to pay for interactive art anymore. They want a game delivered. That's what they paid for after all.
...even if the client is free, and the subscription $5.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Last night I transferred all my goodies to my station pass account with the help of Erillion (indebted to you, thanks mang) and now I get the pleasure of doing the n00by tutorial quest again. Just wanted to add this, as I think it is the best tutorial/n00by quest out there. Some people would hate that they have to play through this again to get your speeder, but I said to Erillion "Woohoo I get to do the n00by quests again lol".
I just find it to be dang fun.