Are hardcore mmo devs delusional?

Ralphie2449

There is a trend with a few ""recent"" mmos that try to target the more hardcore, forced socialization, forced grouping, heavy pvp, full open world(we dont use instances/sharding tech), old style unbalanced/unfair systems, nostalgia types.
Yet shortly after launch they do a full 180 and start removing those undesired casual unfriendly systems and start making basic features other mmos had for decades.

New world being an excellent example, even after the internal changes to a less pvp focused game the game was still advertised as hardcore, all about social groups, stupid resistance systems, few teleports and no mounts, no group finder or matchmaking.

Yet all those dumb outdated systems were removed, a gazzillion teleport points and mounts now exist, there's a bigger focus on solo content and casual players, group finder was introduced and we finally have automated group finder for pvp and expeditions.
All those things are already known to be popular with most players, no matter how much some scream "automated group finders killed mmos reee", we know they are successful cuz old mmos were forced to add them because played demanded better quality of life.

In other words, those are mistakes that were committed by other companies/games ages ago, yet they literally just did the same mistake.

The irony was during a recent video the dev went "It was more difficulty than we intended to get groups" while the reality is they specifically pandered to the "muh good old social no group finder" types, they chose to not have a group finder and more specifically an automated matchmaking system for expeditions and were forced to add it later on cuz the majority demands it!

Throne and liberty is another magnificent example of this, the devs advertise this as this hardcore game that is all about socialization, and guilds and pvp and its terrible for solo players  etc etc

Yet based on recent patches:

-Adding more instanced pve dungeons and admitting more focus towards casual/solo/weaker guilds

-PvP events now turned into random bgs by randomly putting people in teams to stop premade/guilds dominating events.
-World bosses are now going to be instanced
-Boonstones limited to 1 guild vs 1 guild instead of letting alliance zerg everything
-Already preparing a group finder and likely automated matchmaking in the future

And those are just changes mentioned on a game that has been out for 2 months, I am expecting a lot more in the coming months before it even comes to the west.

Those problems created by not having such basic quality of life were brain dead obvious for anyone who has played MMOs, yet the devs did the same mistakes, are they simply that delusional and think their old hardcore nostalgia days will work? Do they think all the quality of life changes over the years in mmos were a mistake even though it proved more people played the game because of it?

Like is anyone actually working with devs to explain this utterly moronic behaviour that only hurts them?

Dibdabs

Game companies can often be stuck in the past, in a sort of idealised vision of MMORPGs  where players love nothing better than to talk, socialize, team up, form guilds and so on.  As you say, they just didn't understand the gaming community we have these days. Those days are gone.  The general and ever-growing trend nowadays is "OMG, you should NEVER play with Randoms", which is why some of the most popular games feature small 4 to 32 slot 'community servers'.  Even then, most of them are locked down by passwords so that only RL family and friends have access.

You'd think games companies would have grasped this by now, but they're apparently run by ageing hipsters who cut their teeth on Everquest/Ultima back in the day and haven't really moved on.  New world was a good example of this, yet even indie companies can fall into the same trap - Embers Adrift, for example.  A group-orientated, old school game which is floundering because while old school is not without its merits, nobody ever groups up and nobody even chats.

The strange concept of players who play MMORPGs as if it's a single-player game and ignore everyone else who is playing is ironic to me.  I used to think I was the odd one out for playing an MMORPG as if it is a single-player game and just using other players as glorified NPCs who make stuff I can buy or sell things to.  Karma has bitten me in the butt it would seem.  ?

Germzypie

I think some of the titles would have been fine with this approach, if the game was good.  New World for instance, our gaming community fielded 3 full companies at launch.  But, that game was soooo broken, maybe still is?  This is what happens when you have suits pushing release as soon as possible for the $.

Angrakhan

The primary thing hardcore MMO developers are delusional about is the size of the market that will actually pay to play their game. It's very easy to get fooled as well because that demographic is VERY LOUD on the forums and discord. Like a cat with its fur all poofed out they can appear much bigger than they actually are. However, when that bill comes due for your sever rental, and payroll is due for your employees they get a rude awakening when the revenue isn't there to cover costs much less make profit. Then suddenly all these new features get announced to cater to the casual player. Funny that. Capitalism works.

nate1980

I was a hardcore player back in the 2000's, but I've been a casual gamer for around 13 years now. When I play MMORPG's, which I seldom do anymore, I play them solo or using the group finder.

The primary driver for me not playing MMORPG's much anymore isn't hardcore features, it's the hostile and toxic nature of the modern MMORPG community. Why subject myself to that (I'm a PUGGer for life since DAoC in 2001), when I can just play a good single player game instead.

As long as a company is profitable, there's no reason they can't cater to whatever demographic they want. Lord knows we have plenty of braindead easy casual MMORPG's out there. They are pretty much all you can find these days.

Scot

MMOs like any other genre will loose their mojo if they do the same old gameplay forever. So it is not strange that studios look to the old gameplay as well as trying to create something new. The worst thing the genre could do is carry on relying on the modern take of MMOs ad infinitum.

What Ralphie likes to call hardcore, well that's not a term many of the studios use. I think a better term from his perspective would be "anything not as easy as I want it to be". He mentions Throne and Liberty bringing in more and more "quality of life" (for that read "ease of life") gameplay as time has gone on after launch. Apparently that's because its a "hardcore" MMORPG. Well the truth is that every MMO that has ever come out starts on that path, can you think of a MMO that has ever had regular "difficulty of life" updates?

Now this may make you think I want to bring back corpse runs or something, but I don't. What I do think is we need to rebalance the where most MMOs now stand and making them more social is key to that. That is because these should be multiplayer games, not solo games where you can't even group in raids because the solo players don't like the idea of anyone grouping ever.

Slapshot1188

Scot said:

 Well the truth is that every MMO that has ever come out starts on that path, can you think of a MMO that has ever had regular "difficulty of life" updates?

Yes.  We call them nerfs.

Kyleran

Slapshot1188 said:

Scot said:

 Well the truth is that every MMO that has ever come out starts on that path, can you think of a MMO that has ever had regular "difficulty of life" updates?

Yes.  We call them nerfs.

Nerfs are normally more issues with balancing the gameplay but I'll agree sometimes they are done just to string things out more. (Like across the board reduction of experience gain rates )

Scot

Slapshot1188 said:

Scot said:

 Well the truth is that every MMO that has ever come out starts on that path, can you think of a MMO that has ever had regular "difficulty of life" updates?

Yes.  We call them nerfs.

Well you are talking of balancing between classes, that is quite separate from the easy mode road every MMO eventually embarks on after launch.

Oh, Kyleran just mention that.

Yes, you do get moves which will occasionally decrease leveling speed that sort of thing. But have a think about how often they occur as opposed to all the "ease of life" measures. Once in a blue moon really.

ChildoftheShadows

It’s not the “hardcore” elements, or lack thereof, that causes the games to fail. They think it is, make changes, and typically cannot recover. 

Kyleran

I don't often take a decision to play a new game or not  based on specific designs but rather if the combined set of features results in enjoyable game experience.

Fast travel might be appropriate in one game but not another, same with queue managers, instanced content or PVP.

I think sometimes missing QOL features are a combination of developer hubris and cost cutting attempts for the initial MVP.

Slapshot1188

Scot said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Scot said:

 Well the truth is that every MMO that has ever come out starts on that path, can you think of a MMO that has ever had regular "difficulty of life" updates?

Yes.  We call them nerfs.

Well you are talking of balancing between classes, that is quite separate from the easy mode road every MMO eventually embarks on after launch.

Oh, Kyleran just mention that.

Yes, you do get moves which will occasionally decrease leveling speed that sort of thing. But have a think about how often they occur as opposed to all the "ease of life" measures. Once in a blue moon really.

Happens all the time:

X potion works less
Y Skill can only be used after more time
Z mob now has more HP

Crafting item now requires ingredient A
Cost of B now goes up by C gold

I mean… they don’t go and remove a directional compass but they do plenty to add time between kills or increase treadmill to get items. Or even stuff like adding currency or collectibles that take up bag space and pain… which can then be mitigated via cash shop.

Wargfoot

Let's start here: the term 'hardcore' doesn't mean anything.
You're in a video game where upon death you get back up again, usually with minimal loss.
A trip to the grocery store is more 'hardcore' because the risk of an accident taking my life is far and away more of a risk than anything I do in a stupid video game.

The term 'hardcore' was coined by basement dwelling no-lifers who were trying to put a badass spin on being losers.

*ahem*

A game can be solo friendly and challenging, but it would have to be exceptionally well made.  As FFIVX illustrates, the majority want to play dress up and take no risks in a game, whatsoever. 

They want bells that ring and fancy pop up messages like "You're wearing nothing but a leather bustier and carrying a 500lb sword but you still saved the world from the 10 story magma spewing dragon"

To any future developers: Just create an app that pops up life affirming messages on the user's desktop randomly.  

Most of these people wouldn't know a game if they saw one.

Sovrath

There’s no such thing as forced.

No one is forcing you to play any type of game.

This whole “forced “ mindset is nonsense.

They make these games because they like them.

 If I made a game I’d make it so that it had features I liked. Why in the world would I make a game that I didn’t like?

I tend to not like jrpg’s so guess what? I don’t play them. I don’t like battle royale games so I don’t play them. Have I ever posted on this forum criticizing their developers for making them? No. It’s what they want to make. 

The issue is that the these developers grossly misunderstand how large their fan base is and seemingly how much and how long it takes to make these games.

Now, if people ARE forcing you to play their games blink 3 times quickly and we’ll come get you.

Kyleran

Sovrath said:

They make these games because they like them.

 If I made a game I’d make it so that it had features I liked. Why in the world would I make a game that I didn’t like?

Why? Because 



Now what I play...that's different.

Wargfoot

Sovrath said:

I tend to not like jrpg’s so guess what? I don’t play them. I don’t like battle royale games so I don’t play them. Have I ever posted on this forum criticizing their developers for making them? No. It’s what they want to make. 

Sovrath, you need to remember this forum has a search feature:

Sovrath said:

I've been playing JRPGS off and on now for years. It is nothing for me to put in 30-40hrs. per week across various titles. It is a love/hate relationship though, but I stick with them because the therapist says they help.

Sovrath said:

The developers of battle royale games are why we cannot have nice things. I think these [redacted] are responsible for the demise of quality games across the board.

Sovrath said:

Developers of JRPGS and battle royale titles are the [redacted] cancer festering on the collective [redacted] and they can [redacted] my [redacted] until they die. Their players are human garbage as well.

Wargfoot

Sovrath said:

There’s no such thing as forced.

Such a difficult concept.

Ralphie2449

Forced not being a thing as a concept is technically correct, so long as you are not addicted and can just ditch the game.

For example games like WoW love to force you into group content.
if you are playing the mmo for gear progression, unless you do mythic your gear will always be garbage hence why I stopped playing any mmo that is a raidlogging simulator and now only play games that let you get max power or near max power by casual/solo methods.

For people whose self worth depends on video games though, the raiders and elitists it isnt so easy, that is why they always complain about how they are "forced" to do dirty casual inferior content for their daily grinds, in reality they see anything outside the raids as an irrelevant addon that doesnt matter hence why they get so upset when they actually have to do some basic story quests and dailies to keep up with power systems.

Ironic really because these are the same people who scream "If you dont raid you arent playing the full game or why do you want the best gear if you dont play major aspects of the game" xd

Sovrath

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:

I tend to not like jrpg’s so guess what? I don’t play them. I don’t like battle royale games so I don’t play them. Have I ever posted on this forum criticizing their developers for making them? No. It’s what they want to make. 

Sovrath, you need to remember this forum has a search feature:

Sovrath said:

I've been playing JRPGS off and on now for years. It is nothing for me to put in 30-40hrs. per week across various titles. It is a love/hate relationship though, but I stick with them because the therapist says they help.

Sovrath said:

The developers of battle royale games are why we cannot have nice things. I think these [redacted] are responsible for the demise of quality games across the board.

Sovrath said:

Developers of JRPGS and battle royale titles are the [redacted] cancer festering on the collective [redacted] and they can [redacted] my [redacted] until they die. Their players are human garbage as well.

actually that's not true. I think I meant "rpg's" I've only ever played one jrpg and hated it. It's the cutseyness that I despise.

So correction on that first one.

edit: Dragonquest XI. 9.6 hours and it broke me.

Also I highly doubt those are my quotes. Can't be I'd never say those things!

(lol ok you got me! good one. 

Kyleran

Sometimes people will bring up one of my old quotes and I wonder who the heck wrote that crap?  

That old brain injury from when I fought in WWZ never really healed I guess.

Kyleran

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:

There’s no such thing as forced.

Such a difficult concept.

As long as one can overcome their desires to play games at an optimal level, then yes, nothing is forced.

Take 7D2D, for many years it was heavy on the crafting simulation and the best way to level was being a builder.

As of the last few alphas TFP has been morphing the game into more of a mission based run and gun shooter.

This meant changing a lot of mechanics many player used to love and if one wishes to progress in an optimal fashion they must play "forced if you will" the way TFP devs want you to, by running trader missions almost exclusively in the early going?

It's true, players don't "have" to do it the devs way, well as long as they are happy with sub optimal game play. (Which I actually did in this playthrough, totally ignored the trader missions because these days I pretty much loath quest driven or mission content.)

Abimor

I think they kinda are we just tried that myth of empires and it has tons of pvp stuff that is what it is at its hear right. The problem is you had these supposed supreme non carebears building boxes at the spawn point so new people couldn't even you know fight them. Every free for all pvp game I have ever played has a huge chunk of douchebags that make up their player base  then you would think if pvp was what they really wanted they wouldn't do all these things they do. They basically harass cheat and just demoralize people until their the only ones left.

Maybe its not that way in every game that focuses on pvp but the few i have tried its been that way. 
If developers were smart they would just have two servers one for the serial killers and one for people who are going to pay the bills. I said this on another post its crazy how good these games sound to someone who loves crafting and open world stuff to me, but they are all pvp focused and the playerbase just destroys it.         

Scot

Slapshot1188 said:

Happens all the time:

X potion works less
Y Skill can only be used after more time
Z mob now has more HP

Crafting item now requires ingredient A
Cost of B now goes up by C gold

I mean… they don’t go and remove a directional compass but they do plenty to add time between kills or increase treadmill to get items. Or even stuff like adding currency or collectibles that take up bag space and pain… which can then be mitigated via cash shop.

This is all balancing between classes, except for the currency and collectables. "Quality of life" (ease of life) is about more teleport points, reducing pvp death penalties, making crafting easier. What you have pointed out is that where studios go against that is when it makes them money. You need to buy bigger bags from the cash shop because you have more materials now, that sort of thing.

When it comes to the debate between "casual" and "hardcore" players, the size of bags are not an issue. It is how fast is the leveling, do I need to group and how often, what are the penalties of dying, how quickly can I port round that map. That sort of thing.

DigDuggy

If anything, I think casual players are deluding themselves, that there isn't a market for hardcore players.  It's obvious to everyone that there is a market for casual games.  They are the most successful, so there isn't really any serious discussion about their existence.  So hardcore players are content to play their niche games, knowing that they are never gonna be the 'popular' guy in the room.

It's usually the casual players who present a barrage of whinging against hardcore games and their players.  By far, there are more casual games to play.  However, whenever a hardcore game presents itself, it's lambasted by casual players.

Look at the tone of the author's first paragraph.   There is no compromise.  Every hardcore aspect is negative.

"There is a trend with a few ""recent"" mmos that try to target the more hardcore, forced socialization, forced grouping, heavy pvp, full open world(we dont use instances/sharding tech), old style unbalanced/unfair systems, nostalgia types.
Yet shortly after launch they do a full 180 and start removing those undesired casual unfriendly systems and start making basic features other mmos had for decades."

Hardcore games aren't incredibly successful compared to casual games.  Let the hardcore player base be.   There aren't enough of them (and me sometimes) to tip the balance against casual.  Leave us alone.

Dibdabs

Scot said:

...What I do think is we need to rebalance the where most MMOs now stand and making them more social is key to that. That is because these should be multiplayer games, not solo games where you can't even group in raids because the solo players don't like the idea of anyone grouping ever.

The gaming community has changed though and the vast majority simply don't want to be social any more.  That's why many - if not most - games are catering to small servers hosted by players with a capacity of 4 to 32 slots and that's why most of them are password-protected.  They are for RL family and friends and are locked to Randoms. The companies often do have official servers but these inevitably turn into havens for hackers, cheats and griefers as they have done ever since at least 2015.

FrodoFragins

It was already a problem for devs when Wildstar released.  Their echo chamber caused them to believe there was a massive market that wanted tedious attunements, large raids, forced grouping and large time commitments.  It bit them in the butt.

I remember being turned off with EQ2 with how much grouping was required early on.  I quit after a month and never went back.

There was definitely a vocal contingent of people here that insisted full loot, always on pvp MMOs could bring in lots of players.  But every time it was tried it failed.  And because the core of every design was built around it, they couldn't easily transition to a less painful model.