It seems the solo mentality is never forced, only "forced grouping" exists. Funny that. Solo players bang on endlessly about how they must be able to do everything solo, that's "forced soloing" right there.
Having the option to solo doesn't force one to. Not having that option forces one to group. There is nothing "funny" about that. It is just the way of things.
So back in Testing, Embers Adrift devs were completely against teleports of anykind. The devs would get together every Wednesday and test/play the actual game usually inviting a couple of randoms. They would always use Dev tools to teleport to their XP spot.
So I ask the devs, if they thought running for 1 hour everyday to the XP spot was so fun, why do they use their dev tools and teleport.
Answer: They thought it was important to play the game/test the game, their time as devs was too important to spend just running to the spot.
BINGO - MORON DEV, HERE'S YOUR SIGN
"The Devs time is too valuable" but they think the customers time doesnt matter apparently. No wonder they have only 25 people playing.
Got to understand the customer and most importantly respect their time.
In games that treat solo players like equals, you can just login and go do stuff that reward you instantly, no wasting time waiting for other people or arguing what to do. It is why automated group finders were such a popular success.
Solo players aren't equals. They are confined to what they alone can accomplish while those grouped are greater than the sum of their parts. As they can only face lesser challenges they are due lesser rewards.
Automated grouping has nothing to do with playing solo.
OP's question...I would say yes many are...its soo much easier nowadays to get stuck or caught up in your own little private echo chamber where you can have only people that agree with your every thought..
And what about people who want to work on their own vision, their own project? Should they listen to the larger echo chamber of people who have no actual investment, no actual stake in their work other than they are supremely displeased?
There a world of difference between having a vision and sticking to it and being out of touch with gamers in general due to being in your own little bubble and not having to hardly ever leave it.
Sadly I think lots of devs are in a bubble and out of touch. I don't say this as a judgement on them perosnally or cause they think they are stupid etc etc however the nature of their jobs and the small group of people they interact with and the advent of social media makes it a higher hazard or pitfall I do think..
Just look how some companies are now wanting to dump forums to communicate with their userbase in favor of discord or even twitter.....
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
KnightFalz said: Solo players aren't equals. They are confined to what they alone can accomplish while those grouped are greater than the sum of their parts. As they can only face lesser challenges they are due lesser rewards.
Automated grouping has nothing to do with playing solo.
Ah yes, the idea of treating the unpopular minority as special and giving them more powerful rewards, and then you wonder why solo players complain and demand mmos become solo friendly xd
I support equality, I want max power gear to be grindable either through solo or group method, group can be slightly faster for all i care, so long the option exists for both playstyles to reach the same end, not giving special treatment to one.
You clearly, as you stated, dont see solo/casuals as equal
Answer: They thought it was important to play the game/test the game, their time as devs was too important to spend just running to the spot.
BINGO - MORON DEV, HERE'S YOUR SIGN
"The Devs time is too valuable" but they think the customers time doesnt matter apparently. No wonder they have only 25 people playing.
Got to understand the customer and most importantly respect their time.
They are correct.
Do you need to test running through the world or test an encounter/dungeon?
Bingo! Dungeon.
It’s like playing an instrument, do you practice the easy bits or the stuff that needs work?
It’s a “no brainer” Brainy. And yes people actually like going through the world. Heck my friend now plays Skyrim solely with their needs mod and no fast travel. Heck I play mostly without fast travel.
All this says is it’s not for you. Move on.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
KnightFalz said: Solo players aren't equals. They are confined to what they alone can accomplish while those grouped are greater than the sum of their parts. As they can only face lesser challenges they are due lesser rewards.
Automated grouping has nothing to do with playing solo.
Ah yes, the idea of treating the unpopular minority as special and giving them more powerful rewards, and then you wonder why solo players complain and demand mmos become solo friendly xd
I support equality, I want max power gear to be grindable either through solo or group method, group can be slightly faster for all i care, so long the option exists for both playstyles to reach the same end, not giving special treatment to one.
You clearly, as you stated, dont see solo/casuals as equal
No, it's the idea that reward should be based on difficulty.
If a game offers equally challenging group and solo content success in either should be equally rewarded. However, in MMORPGs this tends not to be the case. Usually the most difficult and rewarded content is group based.
Why then should the typically easier solo content in most MMORPGs be equally rewarded to group play? Such would be where the special treatment is.
Solo players aren't equal to groups. There is no basis for seeing them so.
So back in Testing, Embers Adrift devs were completely against teleports of anykind. The devs would get together every Wednesday and test/play the actual game usually inviting a couple of randoms. They would always use Dev tools to teleport to their XP spot.
So I ask the devs, if they thought running for 1 hour everyday to the XP spot was so fun, why do they use their dev tools and teleport.
Answer: They thought it was important to play the game/test the game, their time as devs was too important to spend just running to the spot.
BINGO - MORON DEV, HERE'S YOUR SIGN
"The Devs time is too valuable" but they think the customers time doesnt matter apparently. No wonder they have only 25 people playing.
Got to understand the customer and most importantly respect their time.
Developing games is a job. Efficiency is important in that.
Playing games is a hobby. It need not be as efficient.
There is no reason to expect developers to provide the same freedom of mobility to players as they have in their development tools.
KnightFalz said: Solo players aren't equals. They are confined to what they alone can accomplish while those grouped are greater than the sum of their parts. As they can only face lesser challenges they are due lesser rewards.
Automated grouping has nothing to do with playing solo.
Ah yes, the idea of treating the unpopular minority as special and giving them more powerful rewards, and then you wonder why solo players complain and demand mmos become solo friendly xd
I support equality, I want max power gear to be grindable either through solo or group method, group can be slightly faster for all i care, so long the option exists for both playstyles to reach the same end, not giving special treatment to one.
You clearly, as you stated, dont see solo/casuals as equal
No, it's the idea that reward should be based on difficulty.
If a game offers equally challenging group and solo content success in either should be equally rewarded. However, in MMORPGs this tends not to be the case. Usually the most difficult and rewarded content is group based.
Why then should the typically easier solo content in most MMORPGs be equally rewarded to group play? Such would be where the special treatment is.
Solo players aren't equal to groups. There is no basis for seeing them so.
Nothing could be more obvious, but some still won't see.
Also in many MMOs the "best gear" is awarded so the player can tackle the next level of top tier content, a need basis if you will, (often group based) which are not just some cosmetic to prance around in or to give a player a measure of their own self worth.
The developers count on baser human emotions such as envy or pride to encourage player participation.
Trouble is "Sloth" is common partner more often that not which devs really don't pander too, or rely on the cash shop for such gamers to utilize in some occasions.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
-END, that is a major aspect, mmorpgs never end and that is the point.
-All the collections are also irrelevant because the game ends and you wont be playing it again, at least for a very long time.
-They almost never receive seasonal updates with a similar frequency or consistency nor do they make entire overhauls to combat systems like mmos do every few xpacs.
So no, single player games are nothing like mmos in this regard.
More importantly, you seem to assume that everyone must love socialization and group content, and it is just bad experiences or social anxiety stopping people from doing that again.
As I explained earlier, the reason forcing group content fails is simple, people want to have fun now, yes I enjoyed raids or m+ when I was playing WoW but I cant be bothered wasting my time with guild finding every patch or waiting for the other 4 decent people just to do the only content that gives non trash gear rewards, or even worse deal with the pugfinders where the higher io, the more hours it takes and the more metaslaves exist.
In games that treat solo players like equals, you can just login and go do stuff that reward you instantly, no wasting time waiting for other people or arguing what to do. It is why automated group finders were such a popular success.
You press a button, and you get to do content, no effort required.
Edit: Not only that, content should be easy enough that it doesnt require preparation, no I dont want to watch a 10 minute bloody guide to do content, no I just blindly que into one and will learn how it works that way
Which is what I just did in NW since they introduced auto group finder
If a solo game gets a content dlc, has it ended? If their is a sequel and you get to carry over some of your stuff from a save has it ended? Then you have your achievements on Steam or whatever if that's your thing.
Nothing wrong with automated group finders which you see to like, but you still don't like grouping? Bit confused about that, are you happy with grouping even "forced grouping" as long as it is "press of a button"?
There is nothing wrong with having to read about a game before you play it. Think about this guys, if we only play games where we need to know nothing about them before we play, then we are limiting ourselves to the game equivalent of 'not walking on the cracks in the pavement' or 'making sandcastles'. If you want to play football you need to know the rules of the game and this means it is far more engrossing and has much more depth.
I would recommend a read over a video, that ten minute video guide could be read in one at most two minutes.
KnightFalz said: Solo players aren't equals. They are confined to what they alone can accomplish while those grouped are greater than the sum of their parts. As they can only face lesser challenges they are due lesser rewards.
Automated grouping has nothing to do with playing solo.
Ah yes, the idea of treating the unpopular minority as special and giving them more powerful rewards, and then you wonder why solo players complain and demand mmos become solo friendly xd
I support equality, I want max power gear to be grindable either through solo or group method, group can be slightly faster for all i care, so long the option exists for both playstyles to reach the same end, not giving special treatment to one.
You clearly, as you stated, dont see solo/casuals as equal
No, it's the idea that reward should be based on difficulty.
If a game offers equally challenging group and solo content success in either should be equally rewarded. However, in MMORPGs this tends not to be the case. Usually the most difficult and rewarded content is group based.
Why then should the typically easier solo content in most MMORPGs be equally rewarded to group play? Such would be where the special treatment is.
Solo players aren't equal to groups. There is no basis for seeing them so.
Nothing could be more obvious, but some still won't see.
Also in many MMOs the "best gear" is awarded so the player can tackle the next level of top tier content, a need basis if you will, (often group based) which are not just some cosmetic to prance around in or to give a player a measure of their own self worth.
The developers count on baser human emotions such as envy or pride to encourage player participation.
Trouble is "Sloth" is common partner more often that not which devs really don't pander too, or rely on the cash shop for such gamers to utilize in some occasions.
It's not a need basis. Many players of a MMORPG don't do the most difficult content it offers. For those that opt to there is generally is a gear progression that must be worked through to move up to the next tier as you mention.
As it happens, ESO has some high-end content specifically for solo players or that at least accommodates solo play. This makes it more suited to such than some of it's competitors. It is however not as gear driven as many of it's fellows as well.
-END, that is a major aspect, mmorpgs never end and that is the point.
-All the collections are also irrelevant because the game ends and you wont be playing it again, at least for a very long time.
-They almost never receive seasonal updates with a similar frequency or consistency nor do they make entire overhauls to combat systems like mmos do every few xpacs.
So no, single player games are nothing like mmos in this regard.
More importantly, you seem to assume that everyone must love socialization and group content, and it is just bad experiences or social anxiety stopping people from doing that again.
As I explained earlier, the reason forcing group content fails is simple, people want to have fun now, yes I enjoyed raids or m+ when I was playing WoW but I cant be bothered wasting my time with guild finding every patch or waiting for the other 4 decent people just to do the only content that gives non trash gear rewards, or even worse deal with the pugfinders where the higher io, the more hours it takes and the more metaslaves exist.
In games that treat solo players like equals, you can just login and go do stuff that reward you instantly, no wasting time waiting for other people or arguing what to do. It is why automated group finders were such a popular success.
You press a button, and you get to do content, no effort required.
Edit: Not only that, content should be easy enough that it doesnt require preparation, no I dont want to watch a 10 minute bloody guide to do content, no I just blindly que into one and will learn how it works that way
Which is what I just did in NW since they introduced auto group finder
If a solo game gets a content dlc, has it ended? If their is a sequel and you get to carry over some of your stuff from a save has it ended? Then you have your achievements on Steam or whatever if that's your thing.
Nothing wrong with automated group finders which you see to like, but you still don't like grouping? Bit confused about that, are you happy with grouping even "forced grouping" as long as it is "press of a button"?
There is nothing wrong with having to read about a game before you play it. Think about this guys, if we only play games where we need to know nothing about them before we play, then we are limiting ourselves to the game equivalent of 'not walking on the cracks in the pavement' or 'making sandcastles'. If you want to play football you need to know the rules of the game and this means it is far more engrossing and has much more depth.
I would recommend a read over a video, that ten minute video guide could be read in one at most two minutes.
In the past the end of computer games was more concrete than now, with advancements coming more from expansions or sequels. With digital delivery becoming the norm DLC has become much more a thing than it used to be allowing games to be expanded indefinitely should it be desired, along with their cost in some cases.
Easy grouping isn't necessarily pleasant. It is often the opposite as one need not maintain a reputation for civility to gain entry into automatically created groups or take care not to be kicked for conduct as finding another isn't a bother.
OP's question...I would say yes many are...its soo much easier nowadays to get stuck or caught up in your own little private echo chamber where you can have only people that agree with your every thought..
And what about people who want to work on their own vision, their own project? Should they listen to the larger echo chamber of people who have no actual investment, no actual stake in their work other than they are supremely displeased?
There a world of difference between having a vision and sticking to it and being out of touch with gamers in general due to being in your own little bubble and not having to hardly ever leave it.
Sadly I think lots of devs are in a bubble and out of touch. I don't say this as a judgement on them personally or cause they think they are stupid etc etc however the nature of their jobs and the small group of people they interact with and the advent of social media makes it a higher hazard or pitfall I do think..
Just look how some companies are now wanting to dump forums to communicate with their userbase in favor of discord or even twitter.....
I just assumed they were dumping forums for discord and twitter because of the habits of a younger and younger player base.
I also think that the issue is not so much as being out of touch but truly having control over their own product and being able to make what they want.
As many of us would do.
The issue is then that they underestimate the audience for their particular games and even more important they never seem to make a quality product.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
In the past the end of computer games was more concrete than now, with advancements coming more from expansions or sequels. With digital delivery becoming the norm DLC has become much more a thing than it used to be allowing games to be expanded indefinitely should it be desired, along with their cost in some cases.
Easy grouping isn't necessarily pleasant. It is often the opposite as one need not maintain a reputation for civility to gain entry into automatically created groups or take care not to be kicked for conduct as finding another isn't a bother.
Well I will leave Ralphie to reply about games ending, I have your attitude. Of course they are not the same as MMOs but they don't die a death like they used to.
Easy grouping is still an answer for those who want it easy. I would prefer a manually crafted group but if it gets the solo only crowd into groups I am all for it. I think conduct issues are separate in some ways, bad conduct is hardly solely found in grouping.
So back in Testing, Embers Adrift devs were completely against teleports of anykind. The devs would get together every Wednesday and test/play the actual game usually inviting a couple of randoms. They would always use Dev tools to teleport to their XP spot.
So I ask the devs, if they thought running for 1 hour everyday to the XP spot was so fun, why do they use their dev tools and teleport.
Answer: They thought it was important to play the game/test the game, their time as devs was too important to spend just running to the spot.
BINGO - MORON DEV, HERE'S YOUR SIGN
"The Devs time is too valuable" but they think the customers time doesnt matter apparently. No wonder they have only 25 people playing.
Got to understand the customer and most importantly respect their time.
Developing games is a job. Efficiency is important in that.
Playing games is a hobby. It need not be as efficient.
There is no reason to expect developers to provide the same freedom of mobility to players as they have in their development tools.
First off, they can test/play in their test environment. So you point here is wrong.
Second they are leveling up through the game pretending they are getting the customer experience, like the players are, yet they are pushing past all the pain points. They come in for a few hours and just play the fun stuff.
I have an alternate theory.
If the Devs could not use the teleport command and other cheats during their "PUBLIC" play. Then the hour long runs and other nonsense time wasters would 100% be removed from the game. They would get bored with this just like their customer base does and would understand why they have only 25 people in the game.
The person leading should force those devs to actually play the game like a customer, at least a little. So they can see what junk they are trying to pawn off to the customer.
So back in Testing, Embers Adrift devs were completely against teleports of anykind. The devs would get together every Wednesday and test/play the actual game usually inviting a couple of randoms. They would always use Dev tools to teleport to their XP spot.
So I ask the devs, if they thought running for 1 hour everyday to the XP spot was so fun, why do they use their dev tools and teleport.
Answer: They thought it was important to play the game/test the game, their time as devs was too important to spend just running to the spot.
BINGO - MORON DEV, HERE'S YOUR SIGN
"The Devs time is too valuable" but they think the customers time doesnt matter apparently. No wonder they have only 25 people playing.
Got to understand the customer and most importantly respect their time.
Developing games is a job. Efficiency is important in that.
Playing games is a hobby. It need not be as efficient.
There is no reason to expect developers to provide the same freedom of mobility to players as they have in their development tools.
First off, they can test/play in their test environment. So you point here is wrong.
Second they are leveling up through the game pretending they are getting the customer experience, like the players are, yet they are pushing past all the pain points. They come in for a few hours and just play the fun stuff.
I have an alternate theory.
If the Devs could not use the teleport command and other cheats during their "PUBLIC" play. Then the hour long runs and other nonsense time wasters would 100% be removed from the game. They would get bored with this just like their customer base does and would understand why they have only 25 people in the game.
The person leading should force those devs to actually play the game like a customer, at least a little. So they can see what junk they are trying to pawn off to the customer.
There's a difference between experiencing the world first hand and watching a person go straight for 15 minutes.
The real crux here is that you are more interested in a game than a world. Which is fine. But clearly there are people here who are interested in a world and what happens.
I also imagine, in your example, that the dev team have planned what they want to show to the public so aren't planning a run through the world.
The caveat to that is that there should be things that happen in the world, things that can be discovered. Heck, that's the whole basis for the elder scrolls games starting from morrowind.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The problem with making content “solo friendly” is that it means all characters can be self sufficient. Thus the need for a group that compliments each other is lessened. The “solo” character has to be able to do damage, mitigate damage, heal damage, deal with groups (CC), etc… all on their own.
Thus there is no need for the bard to buff his fellows, or the cleric to heal her group, or the beefy tank to hold agro. The single super-solo has to be able to do all that. Thus when everyone is special, nobody is.
And if you are going to cater to the super-solo character, it means your content has to be designed around that.
It’s not a right or wrong kind of question, but it affects every part of the game. So sure, have some games that tailor to the super-solo type player, and have some that are designed around cooperative gameplay where each character contributes to the group and compliment each other so that combined they can achieve more than they could alone.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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OP's question...I would say yes many are...its soo much easier nowadays to get stuck or caught up in your own little private echo chamber where you can have only people that agree with your every thought..
And what about people who want to work on their own vision, their own project? Should they listen to the larger echo chamber of people who have no actual investment, no actual stake in their work other than they are supremely displeased?
There a world of difference between having a vision and sticking to it and being out of touch with gamers in general due to being in your own little bubble and not having to hardly ever leave it.
Sadly I think lots of devs are in a bubble and out of touch. I don't say this as a judgement on them personally or cause they think they are stupid etc etc however the nature of their jobs and the small group of people they interact with and the advent of social media makes it a higher hazard or pitfall I do think..
Just look how some companies are now wanting to dump forums to communicate with their userbase in favor of discord or even twitter.....
I just assumed they were dumping forums for discord and twitter because of the habits of a younger and younger player base.
I also think that the issue is not so much as being out of touch but truly having control over their own product and being able to make what they want.
As many of us would do.
The issue is then that they underestimate the audience for their particular games and even more important they never seem to make a quality product.
Look at New World for example...they closed down their forums and told us all to go to discord but then hid it behind us having to give them or verify with our private cell numbers knowing lots of us don't use our cell numbers for such crap.
They closed down the forum cause it so much easier to get the echo chamber in discord that they wanted, no more 100+ page threads about them being morons that don't listen.
Lets be real it might sound better to say.....oh well we want to reach a younger generation blah blah blah but that's just BS spinning.
Also I think you are being disingenuous with what brainy is saying...devs not respecting the players time is not a rare or unusual occurrence and them not knowing or playing their content without "cheating" is not unusual either in mmo's.
If you want to know if something works from the point of view of your player base you need to play it ALL out like they do. Sure if their goal is just to check if one dungeon works not a biggie to load in right there but if people are complaining about travel...welp you need to try traveling like they do.
Lets not suger coat it lots of devs out there have fat heads, are stubborn know it alls that think... you will play my way and only my way and you will like it cause I know best even to the point that sometimes they make their own product fail.
Lets not confuse having a vision and sticking to it with I don't give a shit what my playerbase wants and my ego wont allow me to listen.
I am not sure why you are trying to take away or negate the very, very valid point he is making here?
Other than that you seem to dislike his opinion personally, it's almost like you feel targeted by his statement?
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Also I think you are being disingenuous with what brainy is saying...devs not respecting the players time is not a rare or unusual occurrence and them not knowing or playing their content without "cheating" is not unusual either in mmo's.
If you want to know if something works from the point of view of your player base you need to play it ALL out like they do. Sure if their goal is just to check if one dungeon works not a biggie to load in right there but if people are complaining about travel...welp you need to try traveling like they do.
Lets not suger coat it lots of devs out there have fat heads, are stubborn know it alls that think... you will play my way and only my way and you will like it cause I know best even to the point that sometimes they make their own product fail.
Lets not confuse having a vision and sticking to it with I don't give a shit what my playerbase wants and my ego wont allow me to listen.
I am not sure why you are trying to take away or negate the very, very valid point he is making here?
Other than that you seem to dislike his opinion personally, it's almost like you feel targeted by his statement?
He's not making a valid point. He's essentially taking a simple part of game play and twisting it into something it's not. He's taking a walk through experience and twisting it into something it's not.
Making one's way through the world is a very personal and unique experience. I do believe in some fast travel but in general if you aren't going to make your way through the world then make a lobby game. Absolutely NO reason to waste time and resources on a world. Just do what Guild Wars 1 did and be done with it.
Getting to Antharas' lair in Lineage 2 was an epic trip. If you weren't careful you'd die. Then you finally came upon it and it was like a revelation, a hidden gem waiting for the players to experience. There were even players who would bring goods and sell them because there was not going back in seconds.
But then they eventually changed it so there was a fast travel node there and no real reason for sellers or getting help getting there. It was just another stop along the fast travel subway.
Brainy and your issue with some devs (not all developers) sound demanding and entitled. If you were to make the game you always wanted to make I would bet dollars to donuts you'd get another group telling you how you were not respecting players and blah blah blah.
Neither of you seem the type to capitulate to the demands of the crowd.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
So back in Testing, Embers Adrift devs were completely against teleports of anykind. The devs would get together every Wednesday and test/play the actual game usually inviting a couple of randoms. They would always use Dev tools to teleport to their XP spot.
So I ask the devs, if they thought running for 1 hour everyday to the XP spot was so fun, why do they use their dev tools and teleport.
Answer: They thought it was important to play the game/test the game, their time as devs was too important to spend just running to the spot.
BINGO - MORON DEV, HERE'S YOUR SIGN
"The Devs time is too valuable" but they think the customers time doesnt matter apparently. No wonder they have only 25 people playing.
Got to understand the customer and most importantly respect their time.
Developing games is a job. Efficiency is important in that.
Playing games is a hobby. It need not be as efficient.
There is no reason to expect developers to provide the same freedom of mobility to players as they have in their development tools.
First off, they can test/play in their test environment. So you point here is wrong.
Second they are leveling up through the game pretending they are getting the customer experience, like the players are, yet they are pushing past all the pain points. They come in for a few hours and just play the fun stuff.
I have an alternate theory.
If the Devs could not use the teleport command and other cheats during their "PUBLIC" play. Then the hour long runs and other nonsense time wasters would 100% be removed from the game. They would get bored with this just like their customer base does and would understand why they have only 25 people in the game.
The person leading should force those devs to actually play the game like a customer, at least a little. So they can see what junk they are trying to pawn off to the customer.
I expect most game companies don't run player events in their test environments, so they have a need for exceptional mobility within the live game as well.
I expect the Embers Adrift developers played through the game as a player would as part of the development of the game. It seems to me preposterous they would not have. Most likely they did so and felt the experience reflective of their intent, or adjusted it during development until it was.
They are quite aware of what they are offering to their customers. It's a very small team with little opportunity for disconnect from it.
Also I think you are being disingenuous with what brainy is saying...devs not respecting the players time is not a rare or unusual occurrence and them not knowing or playing their content without "cheating" is not unusual either in mmo's.
If you want to know if something works from the point of view of your player base you need to play it ALL out like they do. Sure if their goal is just to check if one dungeon works not a biggie to load in right there but if people are complaining about travel...welp you need to try traveling like they do.
Lets not suger coat it lots of devs out there have fat heads, are stubborn know it alls that think... you will play my way and only my way and you will like it cause I know best even to the point that sometimes they make their own product fail.
Lets not confuse having a vision and sticking to it with I don't give a shit what my playerbase wants and my ego wont allow me to listen.
I am not sure why you are trying to take away or negate the very, very valid point he is making here?
Other than that you seem to dislike his opinion personally, it's almost like you feel targeted by his statement?
He's not making a valid point. He's essentially taking a simple part of game play and twisting it into something it's not. He's taking a walk through experience and twisting it into something it's not.
Making one's way through the world is a very personal and unique experience. I do believe in some fast travel but in general if you aren't going to make your way through the world then make a lobby game. Absolutely NO reason to waste time and resources on a world. Just do what Guild Wars 1 did and be done with it.
Getting to Antharas' lair in Lineage 2 was an epic trip. If you weren't careful you'd die. Then you finally came upon it and it was like a revelation, a hidden gem waiting for the players to experience. There were even players who would bring goods and sell them because there was not going back in seconds.
But then they eventually changed it so there was a fast travel node there and no real reason for sellers or getting help getting there. It was just another stop along the fast travel subway.
Brainy and your issue with some devs (not all developers) sound demanding and entitled. If you were to make the game you always wanted to make I would bet dollars to donuts you'd get another group telling you how you were not respecting players and blah blah blah.
Neither of you seem the type to capitulate to the demands of the crowd.
Hogwash.
You don't like fast travel points cause of reasons, that is very clear. Travel in games is often a highly debated point because it is exactly that highly subjective and personal.
Some like myself like to sniff the roses and explore but once that is done it doesn't mean I want to do all the friggin time...sometimes I want to teleport or fast travel.
Now if devs insist on no fast travel cause reason, cause my vision, cause they feel peeps NEED to explore the world how THEY deem fit that good and dandy but if they are then going to do a live stream about their game or showcase their game they need and very bloody well should live by what they are preaching.
If that means they need to travel for 15 minutes to that dungeon, just like the players do, then so be it..they are the ones pushing for that in the first damn place so show it like it is...don't be hypocrites, don't cheat and don't make the game look different than what it is.
The only one sounding entitled here is you mate thinking your point of view is the only valid one, hate to break it to you bud it isn't. Other views are perfectly valid and so is the criticism brainy was making.
I am sorry but this idea you can.t have a nice beautiful open world to explore unless it walk everywhere slowly on foot on a bit faster on horse back and no fast travel spot can be unlocked is a total load of shit.
It doesn't have to be walk every all the time or be a lobby game that's just stupid sloppy thinking and so is trying to peddle the idea that if you don't agree with that you are wrong or entitled..
....you said it yourself, "Making one's way through the world is a very personal and unique experience" thus you cant have it both ways and state this then says then make a lobby game...
Here's an example, I enjoyed running around gathering in new world I made like 50k gold just gathering when if first came out cause I enjoyed the sights...that said I am happy as hell it had fast travel points and also happy it added mounts later on it enhanced the game IMO and didn't make it worse and no it shouldn't be turned into a lobby game cause it has fast travel.
If devs are not willing to do what they want to force the players to do "because their time is too valuable to do so" then yeah they are disrespecting the players time and saying their time is somehow more important.
That's like telling me your 50$ usd is better or worth more than my 50$ usd.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Also I think you are being disingenuous with what brainy is saying...devs not respecting the players time is not a rare or unusual occurrence and them not knowing or playing their content without "cheating" is not unusual either in mmo's.
If you want to know if something works from the point of view of your player base you need to play it ALL out like they do. Sure if their goal is just to check if one dungeon works not a biggie to load in right there but if people are complaining about travel...welp you need to try traveling like they do.
Lets not suger coat it lots of devs out there have fat heads, are stubborn know it alls that think... you will play my way and only my way and you will like it cause I know best even to the point that sometimes they make their own product fail.
Lets not confuse having a vision and sticking to it with I don't give a shit what my playerbase wants and my ego wont allow me to listen.
I am not sure why you are trying to take away or negate the very, very valid point he is making here?
Other than that you seem to dislike his opinion personally, it's almost like you feel targeted by his statement?
He's not making a valid point. He's essentially taking a simple part of game play and twisting it into something it's not. He's taking a walk through experience and twisting it into something it's not.
Making one's way through the world is a very personal and unique experience. I do believe in some fast travel but in general if you aren't going to make your way through the world then make a lobby game. Absolutely NO reason to waste time and resources on a world. Just do what Guild Wars 1 did and be done with it.
Getting to Antharas' lair in Lineage 2 was an epic trip. If you weren't careful you'd die. Then you finally came upon it and it was like a revelation, a hidden gem waiting for the players to experience. There were even players who would bring goods and sell them because there was not going back in seconds.
But then they eventually changed it so there was a fast travel node there and no real reason for sellers or getting help getting there. It was just another stop along the fast travel subway.
Brainy and your issue with some devs (not all developers) sound demanding and entitled. If you were to make the game you always wanted to make I would bet dollars to donuts you'd get another group telling you how you were not respecting players and blah blah blah.
Neither of you seem the type to capitulate to the demands of the crowd.
I hit you up with "Awesomes" on this post as well as your previous one. I agree, except for this point...
I always felt that UO's Runestones were a great way to handle fast travel. A mage marked a runestone for the spot they are standing on. They have to get there first. Anyone could then use that runestone to "Recall" (with no Magery skill and a simple spell scroll) or "Gate" (high skilled Mages for multiple players) there.
In your previous post you said: "The caveat to that is that there should be things that happen in the world, things that can be discovered. Heck, that's the whole basis for the elder scrolls games starting from morrowind."
This is a great point. But players can explore those journeys any time, I don't think a game needs to force it on them. Those players who just jump from Dungeon to Dungeon lose out in a game designed like this, they miss the opportunities in between, and I think a good game should have those opportunities and a flush world to play in.
There are practical reasons for a game not to force long trips to get anywhere in their world, RL happens and keeping up with friends inside the world can be very difficult.
A reminder new world started of with boasting about forcing people to walk a lot cuz "muh vision", no mounts and very few travel points, and now?
-A ton of travel points added and even more are being added every few patches to the point there's too many xd
-There's an entire mount system introduced.
This is exactly what I am talking about, people can mentally masturbate to the idea of old style big world with limited instant travel in hardcore circles, but the reality is internal data shows to the company that the majority dont want that and even quit because of it.
Hence why they drop their "vision" so quickly.
Same reason why mmos have been more and more focused on casual/solo players who want instant fun, no group making bs or gatekeeping max power behind group only content.
I like running to Mulgore and Thunder Bluff the first time to get that travel point but every time I want to go there to run that is bad. No way would I enjoy that.
A reminder new world started of with boasting about forcing people to walk a lot cuz "muh vision", no mounts and very few travel points, and now?
-A ton of travel points added and even more are being added every few patches to the point there's too many xd
-There's an entire mount system introduced.
This is exactly what I am talking about, people can mentally masturbate to the idea of old style big world with limited instant travel in hardcore circles, but the reality is internal data shows to the company that the majority dont want that and even quit because of it.
Hence why they drop their "vision" so quickly.
Same reason why mmos have been more and more focused on casual/solo players who want instant fun, no group making bs or gatekeeping max power behind group only content.
I want an exciting world. Games with fixed content, where the best way to play is to race through the content, that holds no interest to me. I want every walk in the woods, through a valley, into the mountains or deserts, each trip, can be a unique experience based on what you run into. That doesn't mean I want the physical world to change, except with maybe a small avalanche to open up a small dungeons that's new, but I want wandering mobs and new forts they make to be a possibility. And maybe even a new Dragon's nest or Liches burial mound.
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Having the option to solo doesn't force one to. Not having that option forces one to group. There is nothing "funny" about that. It is just the way of things.
So back in Testing, Embers Adrift devs were completely against teleports of anykind. The devs would get together every Wednesday and test/play the actual game usually inviting a couple of randoms. They would always use Dev tools to teleport to their XP spot.
So I ask the devs, if they thought running for 1 hour everyday to the XP spot was so fun, why do they use their dev tools and teleport.
Answer: They thought it was important to play the game/test the game, their time as devs was too important to spend just running to the spot.
BINGO - MORON DEV, HERE'S YOUR SIGN
"The Devs time is too valuable" but they think the customers time doesnt matter apparently. No wonder they have only 25 people playing.
Got to understand the customer and most importantly respect their time.
Solo players aren't equals. They are confined to what they alone can accomplish while those grouped are greater than the sum of their parts. As they can only face lesser challenges they are due lesser rewards.
Automated grouping has nothing to do with playing solo.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Do you need to test running through the world or test an encounter/dungeon?
Bingo! Dungeon.
It’s like playing an instrument, do you practice the easy bits or the stuff that needs work?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
No, it's the idea that reward should be based on difficulty.
If a game offers equally challenging group and solo content success in either should be equally rewarded. However, in MMORPGs this tends not to be the case. Usually the most difficult and rewarded content is group based.
Why then should the typically easier solo content in most MMORPGs be equally rewarded to group play? Such would be where the special treatment is.
Solo players aren't equal to groups. There is no basis for seeing them so.
Developing games is a job. Efficiency is important in that.
Playing games is a hobby. It need not be as efficient.
There is no reason to expect developers to provide the same freedom of mobility to players as they have in their development tools.
Also in many MMOs the "best gear" is awarded so the player can tackle the next level of top tier content, a need basis if you will, (often group based) which are not just some cosmetic to prance around in or to give a player a measure of their own self worth.
The developers count on baser human emotions such as envy or pride to encourage player participation.
Trouble is "Sloth" is common partner more often that not which devs really don't pander too, or rely on the cash shop for such gamers to utilize in some occasions.
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Nothing wrong with automated group finders which you see to like, but you still don't like grouping? Bit confused about that, are you happy with grouping even "forced grouping" as long as it is "press of a button"?
There is nothing wrong with having to read about a game before you play it. Think about this guys, if we only play games where we need to know nothing about them before we play, then we are limiting ourselves to the game equivalent of 'not walking on the cracks in the pavement' or 'making sandcastles'. If you want to play football you need to know the rules of the game and this means it is far more engrossing and has much more depth.
I would recommend a read over a video, that ten minute video guide could be read in one at most two minutes.
It's not a need basis. Many players of a MMORPG don't do the most difficult content it offers. For those that opt to there is generally is a gear progression that must be worked through to move up to the next tier as you mention.
As it happens, ESO has some high-end content specifically for solo players or that at least accommodates solo play. This makes it more suited to such than some of it's competitors. It is however not as gear driven as many of it's fellows as well.
In the past the end of computer games was more concrete than now, with advancements coming more from expansions or sequels. With digital delivery becoming the norm DLC has become much more a thing than it used to be allowing games to be expanded indefinitely should it be desired, along with their cost in some cases.
Easy grouping isn't necessarily pleasant. It is often the opposite as one need not maintain a reputation for civility to gain entry into automatically created groups or take care not to be kicked for conduct as finding another isn't a bother.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Easy grouping is still an answer for those who want it easy. I would prefer a manually crafted group but if it gets the solo only crowd into groups I am all for it. I think conduct issues are separate in some ways, bad conduct is hardly solely found in grouping.
Second they are leveling up through the game pretending they are getting the customer experience, like the players are, yet they are pushing past all the pain points. They come in for a few hours and just play the fun stuff.
I have an alternate theory.
If the Devs could not use the teleport command and other cheats during their "PUBLIC" play. Then the hour long runs and other nonsense time wasters would 100% be removed from the game.
They would get bored with this just like their customer base does and would understand why they have only 25 people in the game.
The person leading should force those devs to actually play the game like a customer, at least a little. So they can see what junk they are trying to pawn off to the customer.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Thus there is no need for the bard to buff his fellows, or the cleric to heal her group, or the beefy tank to hold agro. The single super-solo has to be able to do all that. Thus when everyone is special, nobody is.
And if you are going to cater to the super-solo character, it means your content has to be designed around that.
It’s not a right or wrong kind of question, but it affects every part of the game. So sure, have some games that tailor to the super-solo type player, and have some that are designed around cooperative gameplay where each character contributes to the group and compliment each other so that combined they can achieve more than they could alone.
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Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Making one's way through the world is a very personal and unique experience. I do believe in some fast travel but in general if you aren't going to make your way through the world then make a lobby game. Absolutely NO reason to waste time and resources on a world. Just do what Guild Wars 1 did and be done with it.
Brainy and your issue with some devs (not all developers) sound demanding and entitled. If you were to make the game you always wanted to make I would bet dollars to donuts you'd get another group telling you how you were not respecting players and blah blah blah.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I expect most game companies don't run player events in their test environments, so they have a need for exceptional mobility within the live game as well.
I expect the Embers Adrift developers played through the game as a player would as part of the development of the game. It seems to me preposterous they would not have. Most likely they did so and felt the experience reflective of their intent, or adjusted it during development until it was.
They are quite aware of what they are offering to their customers. It's a very small team with little opportunity for disconnect from it.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
I agree, except for this point...
I always felt that UO's Runestones were a great way to handle fast travel.
A mage marked a runestone for the spot they are standing on.
They have to get there first.
Anyone could then use that runestone to "Recall" (with no Magery skill and a simple spell scroll) or "Gate" (high skilled Mages for multiple players) there.
In your previous post you said:
"The caveat to that is that there should be things that happen in the world, things that can be discovered. Heck, that's the whole basis for the elder scrolls games starting from morrowind."
This is a great point. But players can explore those journeys any time, I don't think a game needs to force it on them.
Those players who just jump from Dungeon to Dungeon lose out in a game designed like this, they miss the opportunities in between, and I think a good game should have those opportunities and a flush world to play in.
There are practical reasons for a game not to force long trips to get anywhere in their world, RL happens and keeping up with friends inside the world can be very difficult.
Once upon a time....
I want every walk in the woods, through a valley, into the mountains or deserts, each trip, can be a unique experience based on what you run into.
That doesn't mean I want the physical world to change, except with maybe a small avalanche to open up a small dungeons that's new, but I want wandering mobs and new forts they make to be a possibility. And maybe even a new Dragon's nest or Liches burial mound.
Once upon a time....