You know, if the people that claimed they wanted these shitty ass retro-feature games played and spent money on the new games that put them in, like Mortal Online II and Albion, for example, all would be great in the world.
Legit, all would be fucking prefect!
But they're not necessarily great games. Or even in the style that people would hope.
Not everyone wants to play an isometric mmorpg. And Mortal Online 2? Given the history of the first game and given that the second wasn't even launched in a complete state, it's understandable that players won't be interested.
What retro or full loot or "non-theme park" game has launched with the same level of polish and features of any of their them park counterparts?
Not one I can think of as they are usually made by fan developers who either don't have the money, experience, or "know how" to actually bring one of these games to completion and completion in a polished way.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The reason I won't play those games that already exist like UO, Eve online, DFO, Albion Online etc, is because if a few reasons:
I want to play a game since release. It bothers me too much to start playing something I wasn't there from the start of the race.
No EU servers in most games. I've tried coming back to some popular UO shards but the ping is just too horrible and unplayable. Americans are just too ignorant and spoiled and have no idea what a huge handicap it is to have 200 ping. They always try to downplay it like it makes no difference but they never have to play with this huge handicap.
I've played games like Mount and Blade where you need super quick reactions and I can duel against the best there so there's nothing wrong with my reflex and reactions but when I play UO on a NA server then it's impossible for me to disrupt someones spell casting. Had a friend test with me many times, I would cast harm and to disrupt his heal the moment I see him start casting but no matter how many times we tried it never worked but he could do it every single time against me without problem.
So thats why I never played most of these games like DFO and so on.
Albion Online I eventually gave in because I realized there will never come any game in this genre with an EU server so I started playing Albion Online like I dont know how many years late but the game has lots of connection problems and crashing frequently and the support wants me to download some trojan VPN and turn off my firewall and see if that works. So no albion for me.
Legends of Aria could have been a great game but the devs could never fix the bugs and they eventually gave up trying to fix so they removed all the stuns from the game and some other removals because they can't fix it. And they started making more of the game trammel-like and there were more problems as well, also not so many players really. Very few pvp guilds. It was the only game i've ever seen that had an EU server though so maybe it was a bit empty pop because I was on the EU server.
If Albion Online didn't have connection problems and crashes I would probably be playing it even though its on an american server. I just have to focus more on group pvp and zergs and stuff where ping isn't as important.
But the trend here is really that devs never manage to simply build a working game. UO was ruined with updates like trammel. DFO have no EU server and had a terrible release. It's always reasons like this, always bugs, technical problems or they make the mistake of listening to carebears and ruin the game so the pvpers leave and later the carebears leave as well because there are hundreds of other new games being released for the carebears every year.
But the trend here is really that devs never manage to simply build a working game. UO was ruined with updates like trammel. DFO have no EU server and had a terrible release. It's always reasons like this, always bugs, technical problems or they make the mistake of listening to carebears and ruin the game so the pvpers leave and later the carebears leave as well because there are hundreds of other new games being released for the carebears every year.
I'm not aware of a single game that has been a market success with the looting rules that Ultima Online had in place in '98.
You can throw around the derogatory term 'carebear' all you want and pretend that they ruin games, but IMHO, and I'm not kidding here, you'd have to be some sort of real life sociopath to farm defenseless noobs 24/7.
Try it for an evening, no problem, but to be some giggling basement dwelling sociopath who gets off on it 24/7 is indicative of mental illness, IMHO.
What would you think of a chess grandmaster who spends his weekends playing grade schoolers who are just learning the game of chess? Upon wining he says things like "wtf pwned you biyaatch". You'd think that guy is an asshole.
You'd be right.
So even if I could develop a game that appeals to those kinds of people I wouldn't. They shouldn't even be allowed on the internet without adult supervision.
And that's why you don't see those kinds of games. It ain't the 'carebears' that are the problem here.
But the trend here is really that devs never manage to simply build a working game. UO was ruined with updates like trammel. DFO have no EU server and had a terrible release. It's always reasons like this, always bugs, technical problems or they make the mistake of listening to carebears and ruin the game so the pvpers leave and later the carebears leave as well because there are hundreds of other new games being released for the carebears every year.
I'm not aware of a single game that has been a market success with the looting rules that Ultima Online had in place in '98.
You can throw around the derogatory term 'carebear' all you want and pretend that they ruin games, but IMHO, and I'm not kidding here, you'd have to be some sort of real life sociopath to farm defenseless noobs 24/7.
Try it for an evening, no problem, but to be some giggling basement dwelling sociopath who gets off on it 24/7 is indicative of mental illness, IMHO.
What would you think of a chess grandmaster who spends his weekends playing grade schoolers who are just learning the game of chess? Upon wining he says things like "wtf pwned you biyaatch". You'd think that guy is an asshole.
You'd be right.
So even if I could develop a game that appeals to those kinds of people I wouldn't. They shouldn't even be allowed on the internet without adult supervision.
And that's why you don't see those kinds of games. It ain't the 'carebears' that are the problem here.
you clearly have no idea what you're talking about if that's all you think these games are about. You're simply talking about a genre of games you don't really know anything about. It's like someone who has zero interest/experience/knowledge about combat sports would go say that all they care about is to look scary but a someone who has a gun is really much scarier. It just don't make much sense.
yellingcrabgrass said: you clearly have no idea what you're talking about if that's all you think these games are about. You're simply talking about a genre of games you don't really know anything about. It's like someone who has zero interest/experience/knowledge about combat sports would go say that all they care about is to look scary but a someone who has a gun is really much scarier. It just don't make much sense.
I played Ultima Online back in the day. I played Shadowbane back in the day. I'm in Fractured Online now.
I'm way okay with PvP even though, due to the reflexes of a potted plant, I lose a majority of the time.
And yes, Trammel ruined UO but it was a knee-jerk response to a terribly broken system.
Numerous attempts to give back the player base the golden age of PKs have struggled or outright failed. It isn't the 'carebears' that are the problem when a game is advertised as hardcore PvP and nobody shows up. It just isn't fun for most.
But yeah, live in your dreamworld where it is other people ruining the game.
Too big of scope. Old school MMOs ask the most time and scheduling from the player, but generally only appeal to us old folks with much less time to block away for recreation.
Gotta get kids into it or the massively part is a no-go right from the start. Kids won’t stand for the convoluted and esoteric mechanics of 2000 mmos. Probably should design your game for a few hundred players, instead of thousands
Anyone who thinks open world full loot is a winning formula should be banned from the internet. We've been listening to this nonsense for 20 years - 20 years of listening to everyone else get blamed for other people behaving poorly.
Fun fact, DDO has this. a Perma Death Server, where we go in, and try to survive as long as possible
You would be amazed at how chicken shit we all become when we get... 1 fucking life!
Die to Lag? Sucks to be you!
Had a system issues? Start again bitch!
Your keyboard Spazzed? yah, You're still making a new character!
1 fucking life!
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
yellingcrabgrass said: you clearly have no idea what you're talking about if that's all you think these games are about. You're simply talking about a genre of games you don't really know anything about. It's like someone who has zero interest/experience/knowledge about combat sports would go say that all they care about is to look scary but a someone who has a gun is really much scarier. It just don't make much sense.
I played Ultima Online back in the day. I played Shadowbane back in the day. I'm in Fractured Online now.
I'm way okay with PvP even though, due to the reflexes of a potted plant, I lose a majority of the time.
And yes, Trammel ruined UO but it was a knee-jerk response to a terribly broken system.
Numerous attempts to give back the player base the golden age of PKs have struggled or outright failed. It isn't the 'carebears' that are the problem when a game is advertised as hardcore PvP and nobody shows up. It just isn't fun for most.
But yeah, live in your dreamworld where it is other people ruining the game.
You are clearly saying you are not the right demographic for this genre of mmorpg and you only make vague general (incorrect) claims. Some people would call that propaganda when someone who doesn't like this genre of games is writing vague incorrect claims that are opposed to that genre.
In my post I gave specific examples of how every game failed which you can easily go verify. So the problem really is bugs/technical problems/devs or maybe investors that make the mistake of listening to carebears. I'm not sure if any game in this genre hasn't done any of these huge mistakes. Eve Online is actually successful though I must say although I have no idea what it was like at release but I'm just not loving that kind of space theme and also being so late to join the race.
I still believe if a team of devs just "simply" makes a "standard" mmorpg for this genre. I mean don't get fancy and try to innovate and make advanced complex features. Just keep it simple and make it work without game breaking bugs. Make a smooth release. Don't listen to carebears. I actually think that would be successful but I don't think any dev team has managed to do this and I don't blame them, making an MMORPG is hard and they are small indy dev teams.
I don't know so much about how it's working out in Fractured Online. I lost interest when I found out that game won't have any EU server.
I think that's something more devs of this genre has to think about when designing the combat and pvp system. It has to be a system where ping matters less. Otherwise they will only get players in USA mostly. DFO for example is a game where ping had a huge impact when aiming spells and arrows. With 40 ping I can just aim directy at my target even if they're moving at a long distance but with 200 ping I have to lead and it just becomes much more challenging to aim.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Anyone who thinks open world full loot is a winning formula should be banned from the internet. We've been listening to this nonsense for 20 years - 20 years of listening to everyone else get blamed for other people behaving poorly.
It's a matter of expectations. Albion Online as of a year ago had over 300k "active users". I think by ANY measure Albion Online has been a success and thus refutes your statement
Don't fall into the trap of making an echo chamber. There are players that like full loot open world PvP. But they also want a fun game that includes this feature. The feature alone is not sufficient.
As for your first sentence.. well.. yeah.. red flag
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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But the trend here is really that devs never manage to simply build a working game. UO was ruined with updates like trammel. DFO have no EU server and had a terrible release. It's always reasons like this, always bugs, technical problems or they make the mistake of listening to carebears and ruin the game so the pvpers leave and later the carebears leave as well because there are hundreds of other new games being released for the carebears every year.
I'm not aware of a single game that has been a market success with the looting rules that Ultima Online had in place in '98.
You can throw around the derogatory term 'carebear' all you want and pretend that they ruin games, but IMHO, and I'm not kidding here, you'd have to be some sort of real life sociopath to farm defenseless noobs 24/7.
Try it for an evening, no problem, but to be some giggling basement dwelling sociopath who gets off on it 24/7 is indicative of mental illness, IMHO.
What would you think of a chess grandmaster who spends his weekends playing grade schoolers who are just learning the game of chess? Upon wining he says things like "wtf pwned you biyaatch". You'd think that guy is an asshole.
You'd be right.
So even if I could develop a game that appeals to those kinds of people I wouldn't. They shouldn't even be allowed on the internet without adult supervision.
And that's why you don't see those kinds of games. It ain't the 'carebears' that are the problem here.
You know, that whole 'carebear' term is 50% amusing and 50% rolling eyes, in my view.
Back in the day, the PvP part arose simply as an addon thanks to the burgeoning internet scene. All of a sudden, it was like computers could talk to each other and even players in the same game could exchange data, i.e. fight each other. What joy to suddenly see an extra menu item inviting you to 'Fight your friend!'
What a fun gimmick that was, right? We played our games just as we always had and all of a sudden we had an extra bonus to enjoy after we finished the game itself.
I think it's healthy to keep the history in mind when 'carebears' and similar terms are being thrown around and perhaps remind the youngster that historically speaking, their favourite pastime is not much more than an addon to the game itself.
Long story short: you carebear slanderers, keep in mind that what you defend is little more than an afterthought for the games themselves, courtesy of the evolution of the internet back in the 90's. And that's me speaking after playing a couple of MMOs exclusively as a PvP player. Historically, the hardcore PvPers are an (inspired) afterthought.
Anyway, I'll take off my librarian glasses and you young lot keep on with your gangsta rap or PvP or whatever it is you smoke these days.
Anyone who thinks open world full loot is a winning formula should be banned from the internet. We've been listening to this nonsense for 20 years - 20 years of listening to everyone else get blamed for other people behaving poorly.
It's a matter of expectations. Albion Online as of a year ago had over 300k "active users". I think by ANY measure Albion Online has been a success and thus refutes your statement
Don't fall into the trap of making an echo chamber. There are players that like full loot open world PvP. But they also want a fun game that includes this feature. The feature alone is not sufficient.
As for your first sentence.. well.. yeah.. red flag
Albion isn't open world, full loot PvP. Albion has zones - and the players dress down into cheap gear when going into PvP zones.
Compare with UO where all zones (except cities) were full loot.
Also, one only need to consider the direction in which Albion is heading - according to what I've read, in the direction of more PvE and a dialing back a little bit on the PvP focus.
I'd cite Albion as an example of the point I'm making.
As for agreeing with Ungood, it feels dirty, but sometimes he does stumble into a valid point.
You are clearly saying you are not the right demographic for this genre of mmorpg and you only make vague general (incorrect) claims. Some people would call that propaganda when someone who doesn't like this genre of games is writing vague incorrect claims that are opposed to that genre.
In my post I gave specific examples of how every game failed which you can easily go verify. So the problem really is bugs/technical problems/devs or maybe investors that make the mistake of listening to carebears. I'm not sure if any game in this genre hasn't done any of these huge mistakes. Eve Online is actually successful though I must say although I have no idea what it was like at release but I'm just not loving that kind of space theme and also being so late to join the race.
I still believe if a team of devs just "simply" makes a "standard" mmorpg for this genre. I mean don't get fancy and try to innovate and make advanced complex features. Just keep it simple and make it work without game breaking bugs. Make a smooth release. Don't listen to carebears. I actually think that would be successful but I don't think any dev team has managed to do this and I don't blame them, making an MMORPG is hard and they are small indy dev teams.
I don't know so much about how it's working out in Fractured Online. I lost interest when I found out that game won't have any EU server.
I think that's something more devs of this genre has to think about when designing the combat and pvp system. It has to be a system where ping matters less. Otherwise they will only get players in USA mostly. DFO for example is a game where ping had a huge impact when aiming spells and arrows. With 40 ping I can just aim directy at my target even if they're moving at a long distance but with 200 ping I have to lead and it just becomes much more challenging to aim.
You keep trying to exclude me from the list of people who play these games, but here I am playing them. I'm very familiar with the arguments on both sides of the aisle and I've argued against "carebears" on more than one occasion.
Your points about lag and combat - making a system that works better with lag is excellent. Nobody expects you to play a game with 200ms ping and PvP.
But your underlying point seems to be that a full loot open world PvP game could be a big seller if only they'd make it right.
When I tell you it won't work it isn't a matter of opinion, rather just observing the success/failure ratios on game for two decades. I don't think the problem is people not liking PvP (see Leagues of Legends, etc). Call me stupid, say I don't understand, paint everyone else on the planet as an idiot.
I don't care if someone wants to sink 100million in to the next attempt. I'll even feel a bit sad when it craters.
Truth be told, I don't think it is 'carebears' that are the problem nor the 'sociopaths'. If you want to craft/farm/carebear why play a full loot PvP title and if you want to PvP why play a game where you have to waste time building gear/farming/mining to have success.
Just go buy a title that gets you there without the work.
Truth is, full loot open world PvP isn't anymore popular with the player killers than with the carebears.
You are clearly saying you are not the right demographic for this genre of mmorpg and you only make vague general (incorrect) claims. Some people would call that propaganda when someone who doesn't like this genre of games is writing vague incorrect claims that are opposed to that genre.
In my post I gave specific examples of how every game failed which you can easily go verify. So the problem really is bugs/technical problems/devs or maybe investors that make the mistake of listening to carebears. I'm not sure if any game in this genre hasn't done any of these huge mistakes. Eve Online is actually successful though I must say although I have no idea what it was like at release but I'm just not loving that kind of space theme and also being so late to join the race.
I still believe if a team of devs just "simply" makes a "standard" mmorpg for this genre. I mean don't get fancy and try to innovate and make advanced complex features. Just keep it simple and make it work without game breaking bugs. Make a smooth release. Don't listen to carebears. I actually think that would be successful but I don't think any dev team has managed to do this and I don't blame them, making an MMORPG is hard and they are small indy dev teams.
I don't know so much about how it's working out in Fractured Online. I lost interest when I found out that game won't have any EU server.
I think that's something more devs of this genre has to think about when designing the combat and pvp system. It has to be a system where ping matters less. Otherwise they will only get players in USA mostly. DFO for example is a game where ping had a huge impact when aiming spells and arrows. With 40 ping I can just aim directy at my target even if they're moving at a long distance but with 200 ping I have to lead and it just becomes much more challenging to aim.
You keep trying to exclude me from the list of people who play these games, but here I am playing them. I'm very familiar with the arguments on both sides of the aisle and I've argued against "carebears" on more than one occasion.
Your points about lag and combat - making a system that works better with lag is excellent. Nobody expects you to play a game with 200ms ping and PvP.
But your underlying point seems to be that a full loot open world PvP game could be a big seller if only they'd make it right.
When I tell you it won't work it isn't a matter of opinion, rather just observing the success/failure ratios on game for two decades. I don't think the problem is people not liking PvP (see Leagues of Legends, etc). Call me stupid, say I don't understand, paint everyone else on the planet as an idiot.
I don't care if someone wants to sink 100million in to the next attempt. I'll even feel a bit sad when it craters.
Truth be told, I don't think it is 'carebears' that are the problem nor the 'sociopaths'. If you want to craft/farm/carebear why play a full loot PvP title and if you want to PvP why play a game where you have to waste time building gear/farming/mining to have success.
Just go buy a title that gets you there without the work.
Truth is, full loot open world PvP isn't anymore popular with the player killers than with the carebears.
no you are not the demographic just because you've played these games.
Many carebears have played those games and hated it and complained about it and then quit before or after they got what they wanted. So just because you've played those games means nothing.
You are basically saying "hey i dont think tennis can be a popular sport because why would they want to run around chasing that ball when they can just play ping pong instead".
You keep saying over and over different things that just shows you are not the target audience for these games.
no you are not the demographic just because you've played these games.
Many carebears have played those games and hated it and complained about it and then quit before or after they got what they wanted. So just because you've played those games means nothing.
You are basically saying "hey i dont think tennis can be a popular sport because why would they want to run around chasing that ball when they can just play ping pong instead".
You keep saying over and over different things that just shows you are not the target audience for these games.
The point is these games have no significant target audience.
You won't say it but I will: The target audience is UO '98 players who ran around on T1 lines, teleporting from noob zone to noob zone, and murdering hundreds of other players in an evening.
Let me be clear, those days aren't coming back.
It isn't because nobody has done it right. It is because that system is fundamentally broken and it cannot be done right. A game that allows paying customers to constantly force fed losing battles from trash talking sociopaths cannot be fixed. So yeah, in that sense I'm not the target audience because I'm not an asshole.
Now if you mean PvP where evenly matched players can battle, or where a sane justice system works, or where PvE players can take on additional risk for rewards - yeah, I'm all about that.
The pink haired trash talking full loot exploiters got voted off the island. Nobody misses those guys, except themselves.
You know, if the people that claimed they wanted these shitty ass retro-feature games played and spent money on the new games that put them in, like Mortal Online II and Albion, for example, all would be great in the world.
Legit, all would be fucking prefect!
But they're not necessarily great games. Or even in the style that people would hope.
Not everyone wants to play an isometric mmorpg. And Mortal Online 2? Given the history of the first game and given that the second wasn't even launched in a complete state, it's understandable that players won't be interested.
What retro or full loot or "non-theme park" game has launched with the same level of polish and features of any of their them park counterparts?
Not one I can think of as they are usually made by fan developers who either don't have the money, experience, or "know how" to actually bring one of these games to completion and completion in a polished way.
Total Bullshit.
This is without a doubt the lamest excuse and it always gets tossed out "Oh the Developers Were not Good Enough to make that Suck Shit System Work!"
Look, I casually play Dungeons and Dragons Online, which compared to GW2, feels like it was developed in some nerds basement and being hosted on a Comidor64, it's janky, laggy, buggy, with dated graphics... but I play it because I like the mechanics
So when people tell me "But the game was just not good enough"
Nahh, that's a bullshit excuse.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
This is without a doubt the lamest excuse and it always gets tossed out "Oh the Developers Were not Good Enough to make that Suck Shit System Work!"
Look, I casually play Dungeons and Dragons Online, which compared to GW2, feels like it was developed in some nerds basement and being hosted on a Comidor64, it's janky, laggy, buggy, with dated graphics... but I play it because I like the mechanics
So when people tell me "But the game was just not good enough"
Nahh, that's a bullshit excuse.
This triggered the thought:
A good idea can be poorly executed or well executed depending upon the skill of the developer.
A poor idea cannot be made to work by any developer.
So the point is, something like full loot open world PvP (with signficant vertical progression) is just a a poor idea that nobody can make work. There isn't any point in blaming the developer - the idea gives them nothing to work with.
no you are not the demographic just because you've played these games.
Many carebears have played those games and hated it and complained about it and then quit before or after they got what they wanted. So just because you've played those games means nothing.
You are basically saying "hey i dont think tennis can be a popular sport because why would they want to run around chasing that ball when they can just play ping pong instead".
You keep saying over and over different things that just shows you are not the target audience for these games.
The point is these games have no significant target audience.
You won't say it but I will: The target audience is UO '98 players who ran around on T1 lines, teleporting from noob zone to noob zone, and murdering hundreds of other players in an evening.
Let me be clear, those days aren't coming back.
It isn't because nobody has done it right. It is because that system is fundamentally broken and it cannot be done right. A game that allows paying customers to constantly force fed losing battles from trash talking sociopaths cannot be fixed. So yeah, in that sense I'm not the target audience because I'm not an asshole.
Now if you mean PvP where evenly matched players can battle, or where a sane justice system works, or where PvE players can take on additional risk for rewards - yeah, I'm all about that.
The pink haired trash talking full loot exploiters got voted off the island. Nobody misses those guys, except themselves.
Like I've said many times already, you're wrong, you simply don't know what you're talking about. You think that's all there is to it but that just shows you're the wrong demographic and don't know what you're talking about.
Now you will keep on repeating yourself 100 times I know. Just keep on repeating same propaganda over and over to make sure that only your voice is heard and everyone else gets drowned out by yours shouting the loudest.
Sure, I'm covered. I'm going to play GW2 for as long as it's still going.
But the discussion is not: "Does Ungood have a Game he like to play"
The Question is: "why the fuck are Devs putting out piles of shit games that end up face fucking the earth on launch, what the hell are these people thinking?" Are they just stupid or are they being maliciously misled?
Developers are putting out games that some appreciate and others do not. Even the most popular of games aren't viewed with unanimous favour.
A better question is why can't some accept that tastes very and what one sees as trash another may see as treasure?
Are they just that obtuse such a basic truth eludes them, or are just so consumed by their own preferences that they can't imagine someone wanting other than?
You know, if the people that claimed they wanted these shitty ass retro-feature games played and spent money on the new games that put them in, like Mortal Online II and Albion, for example, all would be great in the world.
Legit, all would be fucking prefect!
Those games would thrive, and no one would be wondering "What the Fuck are Dev's thinking putting out this burning pile of shit that face fucks the earth on launch, and they trying to spin the whole thing around to attract us PvE scrubs, the absolute fuck is wrong with those Devs, they can't even get the people that they were targeting to play their shit game, we are not going to play their shit either"
And that right there is the biggest problem, the legion of banshees that raise their voices and spout their bullshit about wanting those mechanics and cry how great those features are, and then when the Devs put them in, then, lo and behold, the people that wanted that shit, don't play the fucking games!
Leaving the devs standing there, holding their balls, now millions in debt, crying to players like me, to save their ass.
And I am going to do it? No, I'm logging into GW2, I didn't ask them to make that pile of steaming of burning shit to start with, and I am not going to play it even as they scramble to put the flames out and make it attractive to players like me.
And yet, if a new game comes out, without any of those really shit old school features, all the whiny voices rise up and cry about how there are no games for them. Well dumbfuck, if you played the games that tried to cater to you, they would exist, and more would exist!
For me, I laugh my ass off at this, because the people that are getting screwed are not me
They are the chorus of harpies that claim they want those features and the devs dumb enough to try and make a game for them
Nothing wrong with wanting those features either, but if you ask for them, and then you just jack off and don't support the companies that make the shit you ask for, what the fuck dude?
Those that wanted to put their money in Mortal Online II and Albion already have. People that put there money elsewhere wanted that instead.
People are playing the games and paying for them. UO, EQ, and DAoC to new a few are all still offered commercially. Embers Adrift is still running. Project:Gorgon persists at least for now. Free versions, officially permitted or not, of some of those games also have their own player bases. The populations for these games are small compared to more modern ones but they do exist. Some actually play what they say they want.
Though not as old as the above games, the population of City of Heroes: Homecoming also surged lately due I expect to NCSoft's approval, and that game is no spring chicken either. It still has a draw for many.
You know, if the people that claimed they wanted these shitty ass retro-feature games played and spent money on the new games that put them in, like Mortal Online II and Albion, for example, all would be great in the world.
Legit, all would be fucking prefect!
But they're not necessarily great games. Or even in the style that people would hope.
Not everyone wants to play an isometric mmorpg. And Mortal Online 2? Given the history of the first game and given that the second wasn't even launched in a complete state, it's understandable that players won't be interested.
What retro or full loot or "non-theme park" game has launched with the same level of polish and features of any of their them park counterparts?
Not one I can think of as they are usually made by fan developers who either don't have the money, experience, or "know how" to actually bring one of these games to completion and completion in a polished way.
Albion Online is fairly well received actually, but has a strong PvP element so isn't for everyone. Everything I've seen related to it seems polished enough but I have little in the way of direct experience with it. For people that like PvP or can at least tolerate it the game seems a good option. I've barely paid any attention to MO2, so don't have any impressions about that title.
Like I've said many times already, you're wrong, you simply don't know what you're talking about. You think that's all there is to it but that just shows you're the wrong demographic and don't know what you're talking about.
Now you will keep on repeating yourself 100 times I know. Just keep on repeating same propaganda over and over to make sure that only your voice is heard and everyone else gets drowned out by yours shouting the loudest.
The fact you think me being "the demographic" means your reading comprehension isn't what you think.
The question is: "Who is the target demographic?"
Certainly whether or not I like a game doesn't spell success or failure for a title either way. So I'm not the demographic? Yeah, so what, where are they? Game developers have been trying to get that magical group of 'hardcore' players who love the open world, full loot style of game play and every single one of them has either failed, had petty populations, or launched with vicious PvP only to need to tone it down to survive. It is possible to be in the minority - an insignificant minority - and that happens. Take the wildly popular FFIVX, basically a dress up game for perverts and lonely people. The game is very popular despite being the most boring mailman simulator I've ever played. It doesn't have to appeal to my tastes but the people have spoken.
When I say it's a bad idea (full loot open world significant progression) I say that because tons of developers have tried and failed. That's my proof. Your proof it can work is?
*crickets*
When I say it's a bad idea (full loot open world significant progression) I can cite numerous games that have tried and failed. That's my proof. Your proof that it can work is?
*crickets*
You can run in circles waving your hands all you want. I've nearly 30 years of game development history backing up my point of view.
You've got nothing. Go back to haunting the AoC boards, hoping that will be your savior, only to see it all crash and burn again because "The developers just didn't get it right, again".
no you are not the demographic just because you've played these games.
Many carebears have played those games and hated it and complained about it and then quit before or after they got what they wanted. So just because you've played those games means nothing.
You are basically saying "hey i dont think tennis can be a popular sport because why would they want to run around chasing that ball when they can just play ping pong instead".
You keep saying over and over different things that just shows you are not the target audience for these games.
The point is these games have no significant target audience.
You won't say it but I will: The target audience is UO '98 players who ran around on T1 lines, teleporting from noob zone to noob zone, and murdering hundreds of other players in an evening.
Let me be clear, those days aren't coming back.
It isn't because nobody has done it right. It is because that system is fundamentally broken and it cannot be done right. A game that allows paying customers to constantly force fed losing battles from trash talking sociopaths cannot be fixed. So yeah, in that sense I'm not the target audience because I'm not an asshole.
Now if you mean PvP where evenly matched players can battle, or where a sane justice system works, or where PvE players can take on additional risk for rewards - yeah, I'm all about that.
The pink haired trash talking full loot exploiters got voted off the island. Nobody misses those guys, except themselves.
Like I've said many times already, you're wrong, you simply don't know what you're talking about. You think that's all there is to it but that just shows you're the wrong demographic and don't know what you're talking about.
Now you will keep on repeating yourself 100 times I know. Just keep on repeating same propaganda over and over to make sure that only your voice is heard and everyone else gets drowned out by yours shouting the loudest.
No, the FFA full loot crowd gets drown out by the care bears and their wallets.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Like I've said many times already, you're wrong, you simply don't know what you're talking about. You think that's all there is to it but that just shows you're the wrong demographic and don't know what you're talking about.
Now you will keep on repeating yourself 100 times I know. Just keep on repeating same propaganda over and over to make sure that only your voice is heard and everyone else gets drowned out by yours shouting the loudest.
The fact you think me being "the demographic" means your reading comprehension isn't what you think.
The question is: "Who is the target demographic?"
Certainly whether or not I like a game doesn't spell success or failure for a title either way. So I'm not the demographic? Yeah, so what, where are they? Game developers have been trying to get that magical group of 'hardcore' players who love the open world, full loot style of game play and every single one of them has either failed, had petty populations, or launched with vicious PvP only to need to tone it down to survive. It is possible to be in the minority - an insignificant minority - and that happens. Take the wildly popular FFIVX, basically a dress up game for perverts and lonely people. The game is very popular despite being the most boring mailman simulator I've ever played. It doesn't have to appeal to my tastes but the people have spoken.
When I say it's a bad idea (full loot open world significant progression) I say that because tons of developers have tried and failed. That's my proof. Your proof it can work is?
*crickets*
When I say it's a bad idea (full loot open world significant progression) I can cite numerous games that have tried and failed. That's my proof. Your proof that it can work is?
*crickets*
You can run in circles waving your hands all you want. I've nearly 30 years of game development history backing up my point of view.
You've got nothing. Go back to haunting the AoC boards, hoping that will be your savior, only to see it all crash and burn again because "The developers just didn't get it right, again".
You are the one who have nothing. You havent given a single argument except "they all failed" which is incorrect. You just keep ignoring the facts that are put here and keep pushing your narrative because you hate this genre and that's why you are pushing your propaganda.
I've given detailed information on why many of those titles failed and its not because of the genre. I'm not going to repeat myself because you will just ignore it as usual. If there is anyone here who's not a carebear they can find it in in this topic but I know its not easy when there's this huge carebear who has been spamming it with lies.
This is without a doubt the lamest excuse and it always gets tossed out "Oh the Developers Were not Good Enough to make that Suck Shit System Work!"
Look, I casually play Dungeons and Dragons Online, which compared to GW2, feels like it was developed in some nerds basement and being hosted on a Comidor64, it's janky, laggy, buggy, with dated graphics... but I play it because I like the mechanics
So when people tell me "But the game was just not good enough"
Nahh, that's a bullshit excuse.
This triggered the thought:
A good idea can be poorly executed or well executed depending upon the skill of the developer.
A poor idea cannot be made to work by any developer.
So the point is, something like full loot open world PvP (with signficant vertical progression) is just a a poor idea that nobody can make work. There isn't any point in blaming the developer - the idea gives them nothing to work with.
very solid point, and well said
This explains the vastness of WoW clones, and their success varying between well known to forgettable
This also explains how "No one does it right" is such a bullshit excuse, and anyone that says it, should be swiftly ignored, because if No one can pull it off right, it's no longer a matter of the developer.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
What retro or full loot or "non-theme park" game has launched with the same level of polish and features of any of their them park counterparts?
Not one I can think of as they are usually made by fan developers who either don't have the money, experience, or "know how" to actually bring one of these games to completion and completion in a polished way.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You can throw around the derogatory term 'carebear' all you want and pretend that they ruin games, but IMHO, and I'm not kidding here, you'd have to be some sort of real life sociopath to farm defenseless noobs 24/7.
Try it for an evening, no problem, but to be some giggling basement dwelling sociopath who gets off on it 24/7 is indicative of mental illness, IMHO.
What would you think of a chess grandmaster who spends his weekends playing grade schoolers who are just learning the game of chess? Upon wining he says things like "wtf pwned you biyaatch". You'd think that guy is an asshole.
You'd be right.
So even if I could develop a game that appeals to those kinds of people I wouldn't. They shouldn't even be allowed on the internet without adult supervision.
And that's why you don't see those kinds of games.
It ain't the 'carebears' that are the problem here.
I played Shadowbane back in the day.
I'm in Fractured Online now.
I'm way okay with PvP even though, due to the reflexes of a potted plant, I lose a majority of the time.
And yes, Trammel ruined UO but it was a knee-jerk response to a terribly broken system.
Numerous attempts to give back the player base the golden age of PKs have struggled or outright failed. It isn't the 'carebears' that are the problem when a game is advertised as hardcore PvP and nobody shows up. It just isn't fun for most.
But yeah, live in your dreamworld where it is other people ruining the game.
Gotta get kids into it or the massively part is a no-go right from the start. Kids won’t stand for the convoluted and esoteric mechanics of 2000 mmos. Probably should design your game for a few hundred players, instead of thousands
Anyone who thinks open world full loot is a winning formula should be banned from the internet. We've been listening to this nonsense for 20 years - 20 years of listening to everyone else get blamed for other people behaving poorly.
You would be amazed at how chicken shit we all become when we get... 1 fucking life!
Die to Lag? Sucks to be you!
Had a system issues? Start again bitch!
Your keyboard Spazzed? yah, You're still making a new character!
1 fucking life!
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Don't fall into the trap of making an echo chamber. There are players that like full loot open world PvP. But they also want a fun game that includes this feature. The feature alone is not sufficient.
As for your first sentence.. well.. yeah.. red flag
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
You know, that whole 'carebear' term is 50% amusing and 50% rolling eyes, in my view.
Back in the day, the PvP part arose simply as an addon thanks to the burgeoning internet scene. All of a sudden, it was like computers could talk to each other and even players in the same game could exchange data, i.e. fight each other. What joy to suddenly see an extra menu item inviting you to 'Fight your friend!'
What a fun gimmick that was, right? We played our games just as we always had and all of a sudden we had an extra bonus to enjoy after we finished the game itself.
I think it's healthy to keep the history in mind when 'carebears' and similar terms are being thrown around and perhaps remind the youngster that historically speaking, their favourite pastime is not much more than an addon to the game itself.
Long story short: you carebear slanderers, keep in mind that what you defend is little more than an afterthought for the games themselves, courtesy of the evolution of the internet back in the 90's. And that's me speaking after playing a couple of MMOs exclusively as a PvP player. Historically, the hardcore PvPers are an (inspired) afterthought.
Anyway, I'll take off my librarian glasses and you young lot keep on with your gangsta rap or PvP or whatever it is you smoke these days.
Albion has zones - and the players dress down into cheap gear when going into PvP zones.
Compare with UO where all zones (except cities) were full loot.
Also, one only need to consider the direction in which Albion is heading - according to what I've read, in the direction of more PvE and a dialing back a little bit on the PvP focus.
I'd cite Albion as an example of the point I'm making.
As for agreeing with Ungood, it feels dirty, but sometimes he does stumble into a valid point.
Your points about lag and combat - making a system that works better with lag is excellent. Nobody expects you to play a game with 200ms ping and PvP.
But your underlying point seems to be that a full loot open world PvP game could be a big seller if only they'd make it right.
When I tell you it won't work it isn't a matter of opinion, rather just observing the success/failure ratios on game for two decades. I don't think the problem is people not liking PvP (see Leagues of Legends, etc). Call me stupid, say I don't understand, paint everyone else on the planet as an idiot.
I don't care if someone wants to sink 100million in to the next attempt.
I'll even feel a bit sad when it craters.
Truth be told, I don't think it is 'carebears' that are the problem nor the 'sociopaths'. If you want to craft/farm/carebear why play a full loot PvP title and if you want to PvP why play a game where you have to waste time building gear/farming/mining to have success.
Just go buy a title that gets you there without the work.
Truth is, full loot open world PvP isn't anymore popular with the player killers than with the carebears.
You won't say it but I will: The target audience is UO '98 players who ran around on T1 lines, teleporting from noob zone to noob zone, and murdering hundreds of other players in an evening.
Let me be clear, those days aren't coming back.
It isn't because nobody has done it right. It is because that system is fundamentally broken and it cannot be done right. A game that allows paying customers to constantly force fed losing battles from trash talking sociopaths cannot be fixed. So yeah, in that sense I'm not the target audience because I'm not an asshole.
Now if you mean PvP where evenly matched players can battle, or where a sane justice system works, or where PvE players can take on additional risk for rewards - yeah, I'm all about that.
The pink haired trash talking full loot exploiters got voted off the island.
Nobody misses those guys, except themselves.
This is without a doubt the lamest excuse and it always gets tossed out "Oh the Developers Were not Good Enough to make that Suck Shit System Work!"
Look, I casually play Dungeons and Dragons Online, which compared to GW2, feels like it was developed in some nerds basement and being hosted on a Comidor64, it's janky, laggy, buggy, with dated graphics... but I play it because I like the mechanics
So when people tell me "But the game was just not good enough"
Nahh, that's a bullshit excuse.
A good idea can be poorly executed or well executed depending upon the skill of the developer.
A poor idea cannot be made to work by any developer.
So the point is, something like full loot open world PvP (with signficant vertical progression) is just a a poor idea that nobody can make work. There isn't any point in blaming the developer - the idea gives them nothing to work with.
Those that wanted to put their money in Mortal Online II and Albion already have. People that put there money elsewhere wanted that instead.
Though not as old as the above games, the population of City of Heroes: Homecoming also surged lately due I expect to NCSoft's approval, and that game is no spring chicken either. It still has a draw for many.
Nobody playing what they want is getting screwed.
The question is: "Who is the target demographic?"
Certainly whether or not I like a game doesn't spell success or failure for a title either way. So I'm not the demographic? Yeah, so what, where are they?
Game developers have been trying to get that magical group of 'hardcore' players who love the open world, full loot style of game play and every single one of them has either failed, had petty populations, or launched with vicious PvP only to need to tone it down to survive.
It is possible to be in the minority - an insignificant minority - and that happens.
Take the wildly popular FFIVX, basically a dress up game for perverts and lonely people. The game is very popular despite being the most boring mailman simulator I've ever played. It doesn't have to appeal to my tastes but the people have spoken.
When I say it's a bad idea (full loot open world significant progression) I say that because tons of developers have tried and failed. That's my proof. Your proof it can work is?
*crickets*
When I say it's a bad idea (full loot open world significant progression) I can cite numerous games that have tried and failed. That's my proof. Your proof that it can work is?
*crickets*
You can run in circles waving your hands all you want.
I've nearly 30 years of game development history backing up my point of view.
You've got nothing.
Go back to haunting the AoC boards, hoping that will be your savior, only to see it all crash and burn again because "The developers just didn't get it right, again".
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This explains the vastness of WoW clones, and their success varying between well known to forgettable
This also explains how "No one does it right" is such a bullshit excuse, and anyone that says it, should be swiftly ignored, because if No one can pull it off right, it's no longer a matter of the developer.