Well if I was a griefer I would use crap gear so when I am red I drop equipped crap gear. Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out, old as the hills that ploy.
Shadowclan used to naked fight as a zerg back in UO to grief other players before Trammel.
In Lineage 1 the Blood pledge the two biggest griefers on our server fought as a pair who wore nothing higher than throw away level 25 to 30 gear and killed hundreds of top level players including what the time was the server's only level 55 player. (Who was furious when it happened.)
If there is a way griefers will find a way to grief, or turn the game's systems to their own advantage.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Kyleran said: Shadowclan used to naked fight as a zerg back in UO to grief other players before Trammel.
If there is a way griefers will find a way to grief, or turn the game's systems to their own advantage.
There are several things at play here that I think are worth mentioning:
In addition to gear, progression differences, there are actual real life skill differences. While gear and progression differences are easy to balance, how do you balance significant skill differences?
What if the people attracted to being a murder hobo are actually very good at it and capable (as your examples showed) of overcoming the gear penalties? By the time you've knocked those guys down far enough all the mediocre players would be incapable of the murder hobo playstyle.
To truly make the game fair, the developer has to allow for highly skilled players (they do exist) to ravage the world and win.
It goes beyond natural skill and bleeds over into "you get good at what you practice". Even mediocre players who murder hobo 24/7 will get good at it. They'll mop the floor with everyone who spends time crafting/gathering just due to experience.
Any balance mechanism you put in place to counter natural skill and practice will be unfair to the murder hobos.
Punishing people for being good at your game is stupid.
Oh the biggest hole in this system is that getting killed by a player reduces and eventually eliminates your red status. It doesn't take a genius to get with a buddy who kills you and hands you back your stuff to clear your status so you can go do it all over again. Even better if he gets paid a bounty for it. Pkers with no friends will just multibox and handle the process themselves.
We'll know a developer is serious when they can write a post about the PvP issue without using the word "loot". As long as they think "loot" is the primary issue, they'll miss the boat on any viable solutions.
I think in the interest of being fair to the developer, the game is early access and there is going to be several adjustments made. They're trying something that is very difficult.
I think what would help is to make the murder hobo role fun (dangerous, lucrative, etc) but make sheriffs the role to play if you like ganking people. Put the power in the hands of the lawful. They tried that in FO and I thought it worked well - needed some work, but they had a good start on it.
They did something similar with wargs in LOTRO. A fun class to play but very squishy.
I think in the interest of being fair to the developer, the game is early access and there is going to be several adjustments made. They're trying something that is very difficult.
I think what would help is to make the murder hobo role fun (dangerous, lucrative, etc) but make sheriffs the role to play if you like ganking people. Put the power in the hands of the lawful. They tried that in FO and I thought it worked well - needed some work, but they had a good start on it.
They did something similar with wargs in LOTRO. A fun class to play but very squishy.
I’m still not clear on the sheriff role. Did they have extra skills or powers? What’s the difference between a sheriff and someone who just goes after reds?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think in the interest of being fair to the developer, the game is early access and there is going to be several adjustments made. They're trying something that is very difficult.
I think what would help is to make the murder hobo role fun (dangerous, lucrative, etc) but make sheriffs the role to play if you like ganking people. Put the power in the hands of the lawful. They tried that in FO and I thought it worked well - needed some work, but they had a good start on it.
They did something similar with wargs in LOTRO. A fun class to play but very squishy.
I’m still not clear on the sheriff role. Did they have extra skills or powers? What’s the difference between a sheriff and someone who just goes after reds?
The sheriff had to flag for PvP (so they became a valid target) and they worked for a town and upon killing a red they'd get a bounty. They also didn't lose gear upon death, if I'm not mistaken.
Now reds could lose gear upon death and didn't earn money for killing sheriffs.
Because of the gear loss, the natural result was for reds to typically have garbage gear while the sheriffs could have very good gear. This tilted the battle in favor of sheriffs, but then sheriffs couldn't run around ganking noobs for loot.
Early on it was the only game where I heard of reds complaining about getting ganked by hoards of sheriffs. I think the answer is in here somewhere - tradeoffs like described above.
Someone direct the devs to this thread, maybe it will help them wise up that this is not the best way to put PvP into a MMO with PvE.
All this talk about sherrifs and killing reds and ganking noobs has no appeal to me whatsoever.....we have seen these kind of games before and they dont work well for the majority of us.....So many of these games just can't make a good PVE game, they have to force the PVP in and then it ruins it.
Someone direct the devs to this thread, maybe it will help them wise up that this is not the best way to put PvP into a MMO with PvE.
All this talk about sherrifs and killing reds and ganking noobs has no appeal to me whatsoever.....we have seen these kind of games before and they dont work well for the majority of us.....So many of these games just can't make a good game PVE game, they have to force the PVP in and then it ruins it.
They aren’t forcing PvP into anything. Unless of course the game started as a pve and they capitulated to a segment of the population.
otherwise that’s like saying they’re forcing pve into the game.
What they’re doing is making a PvP game. More so if players can always be affected by pvp.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Someone direct the devs to this thread, maybe it will help them wise up that this is not the best way to put PvP into a MMO with PvE.
All this talk about sherrifs and killing reds and ganking noobs has no appeal to me whatsoever.....we have seen these kind of games before and they dont work well for the majority of us.....So many of these games just can't make a good PVE game, they have to force the PVP in and then it ruins it.
You can do PvE and PvP well, to me that has been a sad song we have sung for so long now. Put the PvP in its own zones, you won't need a byzantine (trademark pending) rule page to explain the PvP system that way. Now this game is not AAA, they may may only be able to do an arena rather than multiple zones, but that is still better than what they seem to have now.
Finally if they must go down this path there have been better tagging systems than this, nothing wrong with borrowing one of them and keeping the original ethos of a game where PvP can occur anywhere.
PvP'rs will always find a way to grief. Always. Personally, i enjoyed DAoC's take on it. You had the frontiers, battlegrounds and DF for pvp, which was great fun. Even then, there was a lot of griefing.
Hope they can come up with something better, or this game "might not be for me".
Big streamers have no business live streaming PPV servers on MMOs. But, while they are easily targeted, it is easy for them to show the ease of which other players can grief you.
PVP griefing, ganking and endless targeting is not really a solvable problem unless AI is somehow able to accurately recognize toxic behavior and not false flag innocent PVPers. It's just far to manually intensive to be done by humans on populated servers.
Someone direct the devs to this thread, maybe it will help them wise up that this is not the best way to put PvP into a MMO with PvE.
All this talk about sherrifs and killing reds and ganking noobs has no appeal to me whatsoever.....we have seen these kind of games before and they dont work well for the majority of us.....So many of these games just can't make a good game PVE game, they have to force the PVP in and then it ruins it.
They aren’t forcing PvP into anything. Unless of course the game started as a pve and they capitulated to a segment of the population.
otherwise that’s like saying they’re forcing pve into the game.
What they’re doing is making a PvP game. More so if players can always be affected by pvp.
If its not about PVE and all they are doing is making a PVP game. Then why are they banning people so a streamer can PVE?
They arent banning people so the streamer can PVP.
Its clear people want to PVE in peace, and want to PVP when they want too. This game is not allowing this, so the devs are giving hookups to themselves and streamers.
Didnt this same Dev kill someone, then turned corrupted, and was killed by someone using the mechanics of the game and because the dev was corrupted he dropped a legendary item. Then the cheaty dev jailed the player and took back the item?
Someone direct the devs to this thread, maybe it will help them wise up that this is not the best way to put PvP into a MMO with PvE.
All this talk about sherrifs and killing reds and ganking noobs has no appeal to me whatsoever.....we have seen these kind of games before and they dont work well for the majority of us.....So many of these games just can't make a good game PVE game, they have to force the PVP in and then it ruins it.
They aren’t forcing PvP into anything. Unless of course the game started as a pve and they capitulated to a segment of the population.
otherwise that’s like saying they’re forcing pve into the game.
What they’re doing is making a PvP game. More so if players can always be affected by pvp.
If its not about PVE and all they are doing is making a PVP game. Then why are they banning people so a streamer can PVE?
They arent banning people so the streamer can PVP.
Its clear people want to PVE in peace, and want to PVP when they want too. This game is not allowing this, so the devs are giving hookups to themselves and streamers.
Didnt this same Dev kill someone, then turned corrupted, and was killed by someone using the mechanics of the game and because the dev was corrupted he dropped a legendary item. Then the cheaty dev jailed the player and took back the item?
Any game where any player is subject to pvp is a pvp game. Lineage 2 had pve and was indeed, a pvp game. Heck, Darkfall had pve and was a pvp game.
If people want to pve in peace then don't play a game where pvp affects you. But of course, players "do this to themselves."
They are banning people so he can "learn the game." I reinstate my earlier comment above regarding what they should do about him.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Someone direct the devs to this thread, maybe it will help them wise up that this is not the best way to put PvP into a MMO with PvE.
All this talk about sherrifs and killing reds and ganking noobs has no appeal to me whatsoever.....we have seen these kind of games before and they dont work well for the majority of us.....So many of these games just can't make a good game PVE game, they have to force the PVP in and then it ruins it.
They aren’t forcing PvP into anything. Unless of course the game started as a pve and they capitulated to a segment of the population.
otherwise that’s like saying they’re forcing pve into the game.
What they’re doing is making a PvP game. More so if players can always be affected by pvp.
If its not about PVE and all they are doing is making a PVP game. Then why are they banning people so a streamer can PVE?
They arent banning people so the streamer can PVP.
Its clear people want to PVE in peace, and want to PVP when they want too. This game is not allowing this, so the devs are giving hookups to themselves and streamers.
Didnt this same Dev kill someone, then turned corrupted, and was killed by someone using the mechanics of the game and because the dev was corrupted he dropped a legendary item. Then the cheaty dev jailed the player and took back the item?
Any game where any player is subject to pvp is a pvp game. Lineage 2 had pve and was indeed, a pvp game. Heck, Darkfall had pve and was a pvp game.
If people want to pve in peace then don't play a game where pvp affects you. But of course, players "do this to themselves."
They are banning people so he can "learn the game." I reinstate my earlier comment above regarding what they should do about him.
Clearly the devs want him to be able to PVE in peace or why ban people that are just PVPing as the game intended?
Your theory, that every game is a pvp game that has pvp, is flawed. Diablo has PVP, Wow has pvp, FFXIV has pvp. LOL I guess they are all PVP games.
DAOC was one of my most favorite games, yet PVP and PVE were kept completely separate for the most part, and people could PVE in peace. Daoc is regarded by many PVPers as one of the best PVP games. Yet it also had full PVE servers.
Right now Ashes is changing the rules to ban PVP in starter zones. I am sure they will add more PVP restrictions once they see the game is tanking due to griefing.
Its only a matter of time.
However only giving Dev team members, or streamers hookups is probably not a winning strategy.
Let me get this straight they stopped people from PvPing (which is a valid thing to do in the game) to let Asmongold learn to play the game. So if a normal non-streamer were being similarly ganked they would do nothing because non-streamer does not have thousands of people watching their stream but Asmongold must have the opportunity to learn.
What about all the other schmucks out there who need time to learn the game? You know how absolutely lousy an excuse it is when a developer bends over backwards like this. Come on don't give that lame excuse about 'learning the game', that isn't what is happening here. A veteran gamer does not need time to 'learn to play the game' if any other player isn't afforded that.
Let me get this straight they stopped people from PvPing (which is a valid thing to do in the game) to let Asmongold learn to play the game. So if a normal non-streamer were being similarly ganked they would do nothing because non-streamer does not have thousands of people watching their stream but Asmongold must have the opportunity to learn.
What about all the other schmucks out there who need time to learn the game? You know how absolutely lousy an excuse it is when a developer bends over backwards like this. Come on don't give that lame excuse about 'learning the game', that isn't what is happening here. A veteran gamer does not need time to 'learn to play the game' if any other player isn't afforded that.
They also announced that they will be changing those starter zones to PvE only.
If they only gave special treatment to one streamer that would be wrong. But I don't think it's wrong to take mod action against one bad case and then change the game mechanisms so that eventually everyone will get same newbie protection.
Let me get this straight they stopped people from PvPing (which is a valid thing to do in the game) to let Asmongold learn to play the game. So if a normal non-streamer were being similarly ganked they would do nothing because non-streamer does not have thousands of people watching their stream but Asmongold must have the opportunity to learn.
What about all the other schmucks out there who need time to learn the game? You know how absolutely lousy an excuse it is when a developer bends over backwards like this. Come on don't give that lame excuse about 'learning the game', that isn't what is happening here. A veteran gamer does not need time to 'learn to play the game' if any other player isn't afforded that.
Lets put this in context shall we?
He was, by all reports being attacked constantly and had people constantly healing him making him able to actually do ANYTHING almost impossible. That's the gist I am getting and this was going live with 70k viewers watching the pvp deterrent of the game massively failing.
From what little I know of this game this is not the intended gameplay the devs want, they want this idealized idea of pvp being some meaningful fun and fair thing and have attempted to put system in place to stop this kind of griefing.
However since this was failing big time in front of such a large group of people online the devs used this as a stop gap temp measure until they can correct the issues that this clearly showed.
Lets be real here and not be hateful little sprites...this wasn't cause the devs is chummy, chummy with asmongold, they dont give a rats arse about him and I bet they wish he wasn't even there at this point....they did this for themselves to protect themselves and the game from being dragged through the mud.
You could have replaced asmongold with any other streamer with a large following and they would have done the same.
I find it funny that some of you are acting like this is a new thing where people with a larger fanbase/following/cult have more power to make thing happens when it comes to this kind of crap, it's been like this like forever.
I mean welcome to the real world I guess.
just not sure where the shock, outrage, surprise etc etc is coming from!
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
The whole situation and pvp open world mechanics put me off the game. I’m too old now to be wasting time dealing with losing xp etc. it’s a shame, I was really hyped for it but fuck that.
Comments
In Lineage 1 the Blood pledge the two biggest griefers on our server fought as a pair who wore nothing higher than throw away level 25 to 30 gear and killed hundreds of top level players including what the time was the server's only level 55 player. (Who was furious when it happened.)
If there is a way griefers will find a way to grief, or turn the game's systems to their own advantage.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In addition to gear, progression differences, there are actual real life skill differences. While gear and progression differences are easy to balance, how do you balance significant skill differences?
What if the people attracted to being a murder hobo are actually very good at it and capable (as your examples showed) of overcoming the gear penalties? By the time you've knocked those guys down far enough all the mediocre players would be incapable of the murder hobo playstyle.
To truly make the game fair, the developer has to allow for highly skilled players (they do exist) to ravage the world and win.
It goes beyond natural skill and bleeds over into "you get good at what you practice". Even mediocre players who murder hobo 24/7 will get good at it. They'll mop the floor with everyone who spends time crafting/gathering just due to experience.
Any balance mechanism you put in place to counter natural skill and practice will be unfair to the murder hobos.
Punishing people for being good at your game is stupid.
I think what would help is to make the murder hobo role fun (dangerous, lucrative, etc) but make sheriffs the role to play if you like ganking people. Put the power in the hands of the lawful. They tried that in FO and I thought it worked well - needed some work, but they had a good start on it.
They did something similar with wargs in LOTRO. A fun class to play but very squishy.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Now reds could lose gear upon death and didn't earn money for killing sheriffs.
Because of the gear loss, the natural result was for reds to typically have garbage gear while the sheriffs could have very good gear. This tilted the battle in favor of sheriffs, but then sheriffs couldn't run around ganking noobs for loot.
Early on it was the only game where I heard of reds complaining about getting ganked by hoards of sheriffs. I think the answer is in here somewhere - tradeoffs like described above.
All this talk about sherrifs and killing reds and ganking noobs has no appeal to me whatsoever.....we have seen these kind of games before and they dont work well for the majority of us.....So many of these games just can't make a good PVE game, they have to force the PVP in and then it ruins it.
otherwise that’s like saying they’re forcing pve into the game.
What they’re doing is making a PvP game. More so if players can always be affected by pvp.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Finally if they must go down this path there have been better tagging systems than this, nothing wrong with borrowing one of them and keeping the original ethos of a game where PvP can occur anywhere.
And then you buy the game and start to play ...
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
And in response gets even more attention.
He's good at what he does.
PVP griefing, ganking and endless targeting is not really a solvable problem unless AI is somehow able to accurately recognize toxic behavior and not false flag innocent PVPers. It's just far to manually intensive to be done by humans on populated servers.
They arent banning people so the streamer can PVP.
Its clear people want to PVE in peace, and want to PVP when they want too. This game is not allowing this, so the devs are giving hookups to themselves and streamers.
Didnt this same Dev kill someone, then turned corrupted, and was killed by someone using the mechanics of the game and because the dev was corrupted he dropped a legendary item. Then the cheaty dev jailed the player and took back the item?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Clearly the devs want him to be able to PVE in peace or why ban people that are just PVPing as the game intended?
Your theory, that every game is a pvp game that has pvp, is flawed. Diablo has PVP, Wow has pvp, FFXIV has pvp. LOL I guess they are all PVP games.
DAOC was one of my most favorite games, yet PVP and PVE were kept completely separate for the most part, and people could PVE in peace. Daoc is regarded by many PVPers as one of the best PVP games. Yet it also had full PVE servers.
Right now Ashes is changing the rules to ban PVP in starter zones. I am sure they will add more PVP restrictions once they see the game is tanking due to griefing.
Its only a matter of time.
However only giving Dev team members, or streamers hookups is probably not a winning strategy.
What about all the other schmucks out there who need time to learn the game? You know how absolutely lousy an excuse it is when a developer bends over backwards like this. Come on don't give that lame excuse about 'learning the game', that isn't what is happening here. A veteran gamer does not need time to 'learn to play the game' if any other player isn't afforded that.
If they only gave special treatment to one streamer that would be wrong. But I don't think it's wrong to take mod action against one bad case and then change the game mechanisms so that eventually everyone will get same newbie protection.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
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