Originally posted by LOTRFreak At first glance, when I looked at these boards I thought that it was some feast full of a whole bunch of people that didn't understand Tolkien's world and complained for no reason but their own insecurity about their inability to fight without PVP, but now with these last few post it has helped me understand that their is still hope at these boards and its not full of a whole bunch of people who dislike LOTRO and don't have the courage to post at the official boards. Although these people might exist, I am glad that these boards have more than a bunch of "Hack and Slash Humans but not computers" Addicts.
Heh, there's a few of us here that are still holding back the horde of idiots.
"First you wanna kill me, now you wanna kiss me...Blow."--Ash, "Army of Darkness"
Although i like PvP i dont see why not having it should be a reason not to get this game. The PvE side of the game and the social part of MMO's as well as character advancement are fun for me. I also think that it would be possible to have PvP. If in an expansion orcs and uruk'hai were added (although it would be cool if they came in at the start) PvP would be great. If there were border towns that could be taken over by an enemy and used it would go right in with the plot. The orcs are trying to take over the land and the humans and other good races need to defend it. Maybe some of these towns could have important quests and such so that people would want to PvP to take the towns.
Originally posted by skeezlow Although i like PvP i dont see why not having it should be a reason not to get this game. The PvE side of the game and the social part of MMO's as well as character advancement are fun for me. I also think that it would be possible to have PvP. If in an expansion orcs and uruk'hai were added (although it would be cool if they came in at the start) PvP would be great. If there were border towns that could be taken over by an enemy and used it would go right in with the plot. The orcs are trying to take over the land and the humans and other good races need to defend it. Maybe some of these towns could have important quests and such so that people would want to PvP to take the towns.
Contested areas is an intriguing idea for PvP. The only place I could see that though is in an X-Pack that has eveolved the story to the point of The Battle of Pellennor, when the fighting REALLY gets going. And perhaps much further south, as the Corsairs are entering the mouth of the Anduin. Maybe.
"First you wanna kill me, now you wanna kiss me...Blow."--Ash, "Army of Darkness"
Originally posted by skeezlow Although i like PvP i dont see why not having it should be a reason not to get this game. The PvE side of the game and the social part of MMO's as well as character advancement are fun for me. I also think that it would be possible to have PvP. If in an expansion orcs and uruk'hai were added (although it would be cool if they came in at the start) PvP would be great. If there were border towns that could be taken over by an enemy and used it would go right in with the plot. The orcs are trying to take over the land and the humans and other good races need to defend it. Maybe some of these towns could have important quests and such so that people would want to PvP to take the towns.
Now this would be logical PvP in LOTRO. I would be willing to accept that type of PvP because it's within reason. Players would be PvPing and staying within their role.
Originally posted by skeezlow Although i like PvP i dont see why not having it should be a reason not to get this game. The PvE side of the game and the social part of MMO's as well as character advancement are fun for me. I also think that it would be possible to have PvP. If in an expansion orcs and uruk'hai were added (although it would be cool if they came in at the start) PvP would be great. If there were border towns that could be taken over by an enemy and used it would go right in with the plot. The orcs are trying to take over the land and the humans and other good races need to defend it. Maybe some of these towns could have important quests and such so that people would want to PvP to take the towns.
Now this would be logical PvP in LOTRO. I would be willing to accept that type of PvP because it's within reason. Players would be PvPing and staying within their role.
Yes, PvP RP. Thing is, I can see The Tolkien Estate writhing and howling in pain like Gollum with Elf rope around his ankle at the mere mention of this idea.
"NOoooooosss, it'ss hurtssesss ussssss!"
"First you wanna kill me, now you wanna kiss me...Blow."--Ash, "Army of Darkness"
Anyone who believes that the world of Middle Earth was not founded entirely in mixed periods of war and strife between "good" races has a very infantile understanding of how a nation is founded, or a limited understanding of Tolkien, or both.
Just a brief review of Gondor's history illustrates that something as simple as taking the wrong wife was enough to precipitate a civil war, as someone mentioned already I believe, called the Kin-strife. The Kin-strife was responsible for a large amount of destruction in the South-kingdom of Gondor.
Outside of the overt influence of Sauron, Middle Earth still had races of people who were greedy, violent and for lack of a better word, evil. There were constant struggles between the Easterlings and Gondor.
Sauron bound those races into one purpose, much as the strong personalities of Gil-Galad of the Elves and Elendil of the Dunedain bound the races of men and elves together to resist him. This did not mean there were no evil men before Sauron, nor even evil elves. Don't forget; Sauron himself was Eldar.
The specific phrase used in describing Sauron and evil, itself, was "nothing is evil in the BEGINNING. Even Sauron was not so."
Sauron became the focus of greed, lust, and evil... he was not its origin. Further, evil gravitated to him as THOUGH he was the ultimate source; not that he was the source.
After all, who did Sauron serve? Morgoth, the Valar whose own evil changed the entire world and caused the exile of the High Elves from the Undying Lands.
So let's not paint Middle Earth, in any age, as the fount of perfect peace, tranquility and goodness. It was never that, not even after the fall of Sauron.
Tolkien's stories revolved around the resolve, will, successes and failings of men, elves, hobbits and dwarves, both noble and those not so noble, with a focus on the facts of the defeat of Sauron, servant of Morgoth. They showed great courage, loyalty and the willingness to sacrifice. But because they focused on the noble figures who formed the Fellowship and the forces of Elves and Men who joined together once again to defeat Sauron does not mean there was no evil, or that the evil that existed rested entirely on Sauron.
Now; the real question is, would PvP be beneficial to LotR the MMORPG?
The problem with PvP is that there is no way to orchestrate it so that it improves the storyline (lore) for the players, precisely because the players who are most interested in PvP are normally less interested in using it to promote lore.
For example; if you had a "kingdom" with a popular player "king" who was assassinated by a PvP player, that would be drama that expanded the storyline. But events such as those are difficult, if not impossible to create.
Someone already mentioned having server rules that basically made it so that players with characters from "good" races could not attack other "good" races and only "evil" ones (a la EverQuest) could be a satisfactory solution. At the least, it would allow players to engage in sieges with more realistic opponents.
The one largest factor that affects PvP in any game is the lack of serious consequences. In the real world, when you are dead, you're dead. In a game, it would probably be just a little more difficult for a player who has invested serious time into character development to decide one day to risk it all just to kill someone, knowing that if they died, it would be the end of that character.
Equally, it would probably be a much harder decision to pitch in to defend the "free peoples" of Middle Earth if you knew that if you died, you would have to start over.
But that's real sacrifice. It also creates enormous dramatic tension, suspense and real terror, all the feelings that you would have as a real person in that situation.
In the end, you have to decide how it impacts gameplay overall. Do the positives outweigh the negatives? Of course, you also have to try to estimate how your potential playerbase feels about it.
The last thing I have to say is, it is much better to begin your game design with the intent of PvP than to attempt to add it after the game has been released PvE only. First, you'll run into severe balancing problems between your various classes and skill sets. Next, you may seriously alienate a large portion of your population that doesn't want PvP and hates the impact it has on the PvE game.
Does LotR need PvP? Not necessarily. Could a well-thought out PvP system increase the overall drama, tension, suspense and adventure of LotR? Very possibly.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq Adnihilo Beorn Judge's Edge Somnulus Perfect Black ---------------------- Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2 Everquest / Everquest 2 Anarchy Online Shadowbane Dark Age of Camelot Star Wars Galaxies Matrix Online World of Warcraft Guild Wars City of Heroes
You end with the idea that PvP could very possibly add to the 'overall drama, tension, suspense, and adventure'. I agree that it would indeed be possible, but there are some things, in my mind, that would be required in order for the PvP to so positively affect the experience.
Role-Playing is first and foremost. Without it, PvP devolves into an FPS. PvPers /shouting their uber-l33t crap seriously impacts that drama, tension, and sense of adventure. PvPers that farm for uber-loot and can give a rat's behind about story advancement and atmospherics seriously impacts those favorable elements.
For now, I'm very happy with Turbine's decision.
"First you wanna kill me, now you wanna kiss me...Blow."--Ash, "Army of Darkness"
Thank you, Slagg. I fully understand the concerns of serious roleplayers who have to deal with a PvP system which allows other players to ruin the immersion of the roleplay that they enjoy, and I certainly empathize with them.
Now, let me pose a possible solution that is not PvP, but would allow the challenge of the human element while maintaining the roleplaying and lore that is critical to enjoyment by serious roleplayes seeking to preserve the world of Tolkien's Third Age of Middle Earth. One that I'm honestly just purely shocked that another developer hasn't figured out already by themselves.
Why don't the developers run the opposing forces similar to unit organization in games like Starcraft or the Total War series?
For example; as one developer/game master, I have control of two hundred orcs, with six lieutenants, a captain and twenty trolls. I move, engage and use them as necessary to push the story forward, but once they're dead, they're dead. I get new units, but not at the same location. I manage resources that allow my "evil" forces to flourish. Throughout, I follow the scripted storyline patterned strictly according to Tolkien lore. I script battle cries and the system allows me to track when my major NPCs are engaged by player characters so that I can engage them in direct battle and speak to them, dropping hints and moving the story forward.
When I am not directly controlling each unit, it follows a preset order of commands in combat.
In this way, the players get the excitment of facing opponents who are smarter than your average AI and they get a progressive and compelling storyline. Together, the developers and the players BOTH do what we all want to do... play the game.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq Adnihilo Beorn Judge's Edge Somnulus Perfect Black ---------------------- Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2 Everquest / Everquest 2 Anarchy Online Shadowbane Dark Age of Camelot Star Wars Galaxies Matrix Online World of Warcraft Guild Wars City of Heroes
So, an MMO/RTS hybrid? Where each player is in direct control over a certain number of units? Perhaps limited by a resource cap. Each player can only possess a certain amount of resource, each unit requires certain and differing amounts of resources to fabricate, and their spawn points are different, restricted perhaps by unit type.
"First you wanna kill me, now you wanna kiss me...Blow."--Ash, "Army of Darkness"
Originally posted by Slaggg So, an MMO/RTS hybrid? Where each player is in direct control over a certain number of units? Perhaps limited by a resource cap. Each player can only possess a certain amount of resource, each unit requires certain and differing amounts of resources to fabricate, and their spawn points are different, restricted perhaps by unit type.
Actually, the inverse. The player controls their character only. The developer/game master controls the opposing units, resources, spawn points, etc. The developer/game master can also take control of specific pivotal lead NPCs during combat and set his units to AI while he manipulates the lead NPC.
The players are against the developer/game master; in that way, it allows the player to face a more intelligent opponent who can react to their actions AND you have the security of knowing you face an opponent who is interested in furthering the storyline and not just how many people s/he can kill.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq Adnihilo Beorn Judge's Edge Somnulus Perfect Black ---------------------- Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2 Everquest / Everquest 2 Anarchy Online Shadowbane Dark Age of Camelot Star Wars Galaxies Matrix Online World of Warcraft Guild Wars City of Heroes
First off, I hate the use of the word "Carebear"... it is derogatory and aggressive... what is the opposite of carebear then? A** hole?
No
But given the individuals who use the word "Carebear" to flame I would wonder.
As far as this game... it really doesn't make sense to have pvp unless there are factiosn such as Sauron's minions against the world of free men.
this will not be in LOTR at launch so why implement pvp?
So that players can run around being their favorite character yet gankng others?
If any type of pvp is implemented it has to make sense in the Universe that is offered.
Not having it doesn't mean this game is bad just like having it in a game should not be construed as "bad" by non pvpers.
There are plenty of pvp games... Lineage 2, Guildwars, Shadowbane and games that have pvp such as WoW, ,EQ2, City of heroes/villains AND games coming out such as RF online, Huxley etc.
It's "ok" for a game to "not include" pvp.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I myself can careless about PvP... "/duel"ing is enough for me. A game like LOTRO is not meant for PvP and therefore pvp lovers should forget about this game.
Why is pvp so much more special than pve anyway? Everyone uses the same attack pattern once the best is figured out so it is very similar to a pve encounter only with corpse camping added in.
In my opinion they are really watering down the whole world of Middle Earth with no PvP. Both The hobbit and Lotr have huge battles and both books also show that the world of ME is full of danger. Also the end of LotR clearly showed that no place in ME was save from the orcs.
Anyway LotR should have been done like WoW which i consider the be the middleground for PvP and PvE lovers.
Originally posted by skeeter_ross I loved watching the movies. it had great battles in it. this game is gonna be a CAREBEAR game cuz there is no PvP. ya most people like handling NPC's to make them a feel like a badass. but any 8yr old can kill a NPC. it takes smarter more dedicated players to kill one another. im not saying make a big open free for all. but ther should be zones at least where players can get jumped by other players and such. at least that should be put in
I am glad you aren't playing. Your punctuation and spelling pegs you as a 15 year old.
Its truly a sad state of affairs that so many people feel the need for PvP in every RPG. PvP is really an aberration of the MMO industry and has no place in true RPGs. This is particularly true for both of the offerings under development by Turbine.
Tolkien's stories are of adventure and valor, with the main characters taking the lead role on the side of good. DnD attempted to capture this very thing when it first came out over 30 years ago.
And many MMORPGs have fallen short in capturing the essence of Tolkiens vision.
Dev teams for both LotR and DDO have stated that there will be no PVP in these games. And I think the reasons for both are sound and I for one, applaud them for this. What is this obsession with wanting to play the evil side anyway?
Not sure why every single PvP discussion turns into a flame war. Do I think LotR should have PvP, yeah I sure do. Why is PvP so special? Because anyone can kite a mob into a tree and get it stuck and wack at it for 60mins till it dies, or something to that effect. PvP allows a player to adapt and fight something that is thinking and trying to out wit and out do you. PvP doesn't have to be evil. PvP does not have to be absolute or free for all. But I can't see how anyone would say there is no room for PvP in this game, when this game like SWG has very EXACT opposite sides that specificly fight each other.
I hope they come out with an expansion like City of Heros did and allow people to play the evil side and I hope they do at some point have PvP of some kind as well. Not everyone has to partisipate...and those that chose not to sometimes actually enjoy watching some of the large battles that can occur when you have player armies fighting each other.
Originally posted by Hardware-DC Not sure why every single PvP discussion turns into a flame war. Do I think LotR should have PvP, yeah I sure do. Why is PvP so special? Because anyone can kite a mob into a tree and get it stuck and wack at it for 60mins till it dies, or something to that effect. PvP allows a player to adapt and fight something that is thinking and trying to out wit and out do you. PvP doesn't have to be evil. PvP does not have to be absolute or free for all. But I can't see how anyone would say there is no room for PvP in this game, when this game like SWG has very EXACT opposite sides that specificly fight each other. I hope they come out with an expansion like City of Heros did and allow people to play the evil side and I hope they do at some point have PvP of some kind as well. Not everyone has to partisipate...and those that chose not to sometimes actually enjoy watching some of the large battles that can occur when you have player armies fighting each other.
PVP won't work it just can't Elves, Men and Dwarves are not equal to Orcs in strength. I don't know why people act as if they should just make it work because there to stuck up to admit their addicted to PVP. If you don't like games without PVP admit it don't act like your fine with games without PVP as long as it make sense. Its not an unclear line, Theirs no PVP why? because the game is only set in Eriador for goodness sake their are no massive Orc, troll, Urk-hai, Olog-hai, Easterling and Haradrim populations in hobbition? Rivendell? in Bree? People watch the movies and act stupid. Admit it either you didn't or don't understand the setting of the game that would make PVP impossible or your just to stuck up to admit that you don't play games without PVP.
Originally posted by Hardware-DC Not sure why every single PvP discussion turns into a flame war. Do I think LotR should have PvP, yeah I sure do. Why is PvP so special? Because anyone can kite a mob into a tree and get it stuck and wack at it for 60mins till it dies, or something to that effect. PvP allows a player to adapt and fight something that is thinking and trying to out wit and out do you. PvP doesn't have to be evil. PvP does not have to be absolute or free for all. But I can't see how anyone would say there is no room for PvP in this game, when this game like SWG has very EXACT opposite sides that specificly fight each other. I hope they come out with an expansion like City of Heros did and allow people to play the evil side and I hope they do at some point have PvP of some kind as well. Not everyone has to partisipate...and those that chose not to sometimes actually enjoy watching some of the large battles that can occur when you have player armies fighting each other.
PVP won't work it just can't Elves, Men and Dwarves are not equal to Orcs in strength. I don't know why people act as if they should just make it work because there to stuck up to admit their addicted to PVP. If you don't like games without PVP admit it don't act like your fine with games without PVP as long as it make sense. Its not an unclear line, Theirs no PVP why? because the game is only set in Eriador for goodness sake their are no massive Orc, troll, Urk-hai, Olog-hai, Easterling and Haradrim populations in hobbition? Rivendell? in Bree? People watch the movies and act stupid. Admit it either you didn't or don't understand the setting of the game that would make PVP impossible or your just to stuck up to admit that you don't play games without PVP.
Not every game is perfect for pvp and not every game is perfect for pve. Not every game needs to have pvp in it to survive. For me i will play two games, For pve only i will play this game and for pvp i will play darkfall. I don't feel that every game has to have pvp, when i don't play a game i could care less what is in it. I will play this game so i do care what is in it and i accept what the devs have to offer. I like pvp and pve and i see this as the best of both worlds cause when i want pve only i will have this game to play and when i want pvp i can play darkfall which is a no holds bar no safe zone total pvp game.
The problem with pvp in a rpg is that you have to lvl your caracter making lvl a huge factor in pvp. In darkfall there is no caracter lvling, instead you lvl skills. Making skills the main factor in pvp and not lvl. In a pve game lvl makes more sense since you are more concerened with killing stronger mobs. I understand why some people who love tolkien and pvp want to see pvp in this game but unfortunately the devs have ruled pvp out. Leaving us with pve and if that does not suit ones taste then there are other games that will.
I love the people cheering for no PVP lol. Just clueless. The Original poster said nothing about wanting to gank people. What he's saying is, once youve killed every beast and completed all the quests etc, all thats left to challenge you is that PVP experience. Hell thats what these games are about, battling people from other States or Countries. If you just want no PVP then you might as well just play a Solo game.
Sure you can group with people to complete quests together, thats fun. But you need some PVP aspect. I don't care what anybody says. A PVP system is very important to have in any online game.
And stop crying about ganking, why don't you just adapt and learn how to survive, you get in a group and gank when that guy is out by himself. Then other times you'll have 5 on 5 or something. If your a low level getting killed , then get your ass in gear and start making some advancement and learn how to defend yourself. I'm not the greatest at PVP but hell i don't cry about it. I pick myself up and see what i can do to make it more of a challenge for the Uber PVP guy to kill me.
If there is NO PVP aspect of this game then i'll most likely only play it for a short time. I dont want to just fight the AI, i want to take on a real brain.
I am not sure if you are saying that i am cheering for no pvp. So i want to make it clear that I don't care if there is pvp. I pvp though i am not very good at it. In my last post i was stating my opinion on what was wrong with pvp in a lvling game that is rpg based. I am not crying about ganking or getting ganked though i do not partake in ganging up on one person with a bunch of people. I don't see that as fair pvp, though it is part of pvp and how people pvp.
No matter if the devs come up with some new pvp system or not this game is a game i will play because i have always dreamed of what it would be like to be in middle earth.
Don't take it the wrong way. I'm not so great in PVP either I'm not saying base the whole game on PVP, just make it an option so there are a few more choices to diversify the game. I don't mind getting ganked etc because sometimes you can get in on the ganking. I'm just worried i'll get bored with LOTR if no PVP is implemented.
I understand how you feel. I just wanted to make myself clear on how i felt. As i have said I will have two games to play. LOTRO for the rpg aspect and Darkfall for the pvp. When i get bored of one i will play the other.
Comments
"First you wanna kill me, now you wanna kiss me...Blow."--Ash, "Army of Darkness"
Although i like PvP i dont see why not having it should be a reason not to get this game. The PvE side of the game and the social part of MMO's as well as character advancement are fun for me. I also think that it would be possible to have PvP. If in an expansion orcs and uruk'hai were added (although it would be cool if they came in at the start) PvP would be great. If there were border towns that could be taken over by an enemy and used it would go right in with the plot. The orcs are trying to take over the land and the humans and other good races need to defend it. Maybe some of these towns could have important quests and such so that people would want to PvP to take the towns.
"First you wanna kill me, now you wanna kiss me...Blow."--Ash, "Army of Darkness"
Yes, PvP RP. Thing is, I can see The Tolkien Estate writhing and howling in pain like Gollum with Elf rope around his ankle at the mere mention of this idea.
"NOoooooosss, it'ss hurtssesss ussssss!"
"First you wanna kill me, now you wanna kiss me...Blow."--Ash, "Army of Darkness"
Anyone who believes that the world of Middle Earth was not founded entirely in mixed periods of war and strife between "good" races has a very infantile understanding of how a nation is founded, or a limited understanding of Tolkien, or both.
Just a brief review of Gondor's history illustrates that something as simple as taking the wrong wife was enough to precipitate a civil war, as someone mentioned already I believe, called the Kin-strife. The Kin-strife was responsible for a large amount of destruction in the South-kingdom of Gondor.
Outside of the overt influence of Sauron, Middle Earth still had races of people who were greedy, violent and for lack of a better word, evil. There were constant struggles between the Easterlings and Gondor.
Sauron bound those races into one purpose, much as the strong personalities of Gil-Galad of the Elves and Elendil of the Dunedain bound the races of men and elves together to resist him. This did not mean there were no evil men before Sauron, nor even evil elves. Don't forget; Sauron himself was Eldar.
The specific phrase used in describing Sauron and evil, itself, was "nothing is evil in the BEGINNING. Even Sauron was not so."
Sauron became the focus of greed, lust, and evil... he was not its origin. Further, evil gravitated to him as THOUGH he was the ultimate source; not that he was the source.
After all, who did Sauron serve? Morgoth, the Valar whose own evil changed the entire world and caused the exile of the High Elves from the Undying Lands.
So let's not paint Middle Earth, in any age, as the fount of perfect peace, tranquility and goodness. It was never that, not even after the fall of Sauron.
Tolkien's stories revolved around the resolve, will, successes and failings of men, elves, hobbits and dwarves, both noble and those not so noble, with a focus on the facts of the defeat of Sauron, servant of Morgoth. They showed great courage, loyalty and the willingness to sacrifice. But because they focused on the noble figures who formed the Fellowship and the forces of Elves and Men who joined together once again to defeat Sauron does not mean there was no evil, or that the evil that existed rested entirely on Sauron.
Now; the real question is, would PvP be beneficial to LotR the MMORPG?
The problem with PvP is that there is no way to orchestrate it so that it improves the storyline (lore) for the players, precisely because the players who are most interested in PvP are normally less interested in using it to promote lore.
For example; if you had a "kingdom" with a popular player "king" who was assassinated by a PvP player, that would be drama that expanded the storyline. But events such as those are difficult, if not impossible to create.
Someone already mentioned having server rules that basically made it so that players with characters from "good" races could not attack other "good" races and only "evil" ones (a la EverQuest) could be a satisfactory solution. At the least, it would allow players to engage in sieges with more realistic opponents.
The one largest factor that affects PvP in any game is the lack of serious consequences. In the real world, when you are dead, you're dead. In a game, it would probably be just a little more difficult for a player who has invested serious time into character development to decide one day to risk it all just to kill someone, knowing that if they died, it would be the end of that character.
Equally, it would probably be a much harder decision to pitch in to defend the "free peoples" of Middle Earth if you knew that if you died, you would have to start over.
But that's real sacrifice. It also creates enormous dramatic tension, suspense and real terror, all the feelings that you would have as a real person in that situation.
In the end, you have to decide how it impacts gameplay overall. Do the positives outweigh the negatives? Of course, you also have to try to estimate how your potential playerbase feels about it.
The last thing I have to say is, it is much better to begin your game design with the intent of PvP than to attempt to add it after the game has been released PvE only. First, you'll run into severe balancing problems between your various classes and skill sets. Next, you may seriously alienate a large portion of your population that doesn't want PvP and hates the impact it has on the PvE game.
Does LotR need PvP? Not necessarily. Could a well-thought out PvP system increase the overall drama, tension, suspense and adventure of LotR? Very possibly.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq
Adnihilo
Beorn Judge's Edge
Somnulus
Perfect Black
----------------------
Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2
Everquest / Everquest 2
Anarchy Online
Shadowbane
Dark Age of Camelot
Star Wars Galaxies
Matrix Online
World of Warcraft
Guild Wars
City of Heroes
Well presented.
You end with the idea that PvP could very possibly add to the 'overall drama, tension, suspense, and adventure'. I agree that it would indeed be possible, but there are some things, in my mind, that would be required in order for the PvP to so positively affect the experience.
Role-Playing is first and foremost. Without it, PvP devolves into an FPS. PvPers /shouting their uber-l33t crap seriously impacts that drama, tension, and sense of adventure. PvPers that farm for uber-loot and can give a rat's behind about story advancement and atmospherics seriously impacts those favorable elements.
For now, I'm very happy with Turbine's decision.
"First you wanna kill me, now you wanna kiss me...Blow."--Ash, "Army of Darkness"
Ack double post.
"First you wanna kill me, now you wanna kiss me...Blow."--Ash, "Army of Darkness"
Thank you, Slagg. I fully understand the concerns of serious roleplayers who have to deal with a PvP system which allows other players to ruin the immersion of the roleplay that they enjoy, and I certainly empathize with them.
Now, let me pose a possible solution that is not PvP, but would allow the challenge of the human element while maintaining the roleplaying and lore that is critical to enjoyment by serious roleplayes seeking to preserve the world of Tolkien's Third Age of Middle Earth. One that I'm honestly just purely shocked that another developer hasn't figured out already by themselves.
Why don't the developers run the opposing forces similar to unit organization in games like Starcraft or the Total War series?
For example; as one developer/game master, I have control of two hundred orcs, with six lieutenants, a captain and twenty trolls. I move, engage and use them as necessary to push the story forward, but once they're dead, they're dead. I get new units, but not at the same location. I manage resources that allow my "evil" forces to flourish. Throughout, I follow the scripted storyline patterned strictly according to Tolkien lore. I script battle cries and the system allows me to track when my major NPCs are engaged by player characters so that I can engage them in direct battle and speak to them, dropping hints and moving the story forward.
When I am not directly controlling each unit, it follows a preset order of commands in combat.
In this way, the players get the excitment of facing opponents who are smarter than your average AI and they get a progressive and compelling storyline. Together, the developers and the players BOTH do what we all want to do... play the game.
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Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2
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So, an MMO/RTS hybrid? Where each player is in direct control over a certain number of units? Perhaps limited by a resource cap. Each player can only possess a certain amount of resource, each unit requires certain and differing amounts of resources to fabricate, and their spawn points are different, restricted perhaps by unit type.
"First you wanna kill me, now you wanna kiss me...Blow."--Ash, "Army of Darkness"
Actually, the inverse. The player controls their character only. The developer/game master controls the opposing units, resources, spawn points, etc. The developer/game master can also take control of specific pivotal lead NPCs during combat and set his units to AI while he manipulates the lead NPC.
The players are against the developer/game master; in that way, it allows the player to face a more intelligent opponent who can react to their actions AND you have the security of knowing you face an opponent who is interested in furthering the storyline and not just how many people s/he can kill.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq
Adnihilo
Beorn Judge's Edge
Somnulus
Perfect Black
----------------------
Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2
Everquest / Everquest 2
Anarchy Online
Shadowbane
Dark Age of Camelot
Star Wars Galaxies
Matrix Online
World of Warcraft
Guild Wars
City of Heroes
First off, I hate the use of the word "Carebear"... it is derogatory and aggressive... what is the opposite of carebear then? A** hole?
No
But given the individuals who use the word "Carebear" to flame I would wonder.
As far as this game... it really doesn't make sense to have pvp unless there are factiosn such as Sauron's minions against the world of free men.
this will not be in LOTR at launch so why implement pvp?
So that players can run around being their favorite character yet gankng others?
If any type of pvp is implemented it has to make sense in the Universe that is offered.
Not having it doesn't mean this game is bad just like having it in a game should not be construed as "bad" by non pvpers.
There are plenty of pvp games... Lineage 2, Guildwars, Shadowbane and games that have pvp such as WoW, ,EQ2, City of heroes/villains AND games coming out such as RF online, Huxley etc.
It's "ok" for a game to "not include" pvp.
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Why is pvp so much more special than pve anyway? Everyone uses the same attack pattern once the best is figured out so it is very similar to a pve encounter only with corpse camping added in.
In my opinion they are really watering down the whole world of Middle Earth with no PvP. Both The hobbit and Lotr have huge battles and both books also show that the world of ME is full of danger. Also the end of LotR clearly showed that no place in ME was save from the orcs.
Anyway LotR should have been done like WoW which i consider the be the middleground for PvP and PvE lovers.
Its truly a sad state of affairs that so many people feel the need for PvP in every RPG. PvP is really an aberration of the MMO industry and has no place in true RPGs. This is particularly true for both of the offerings under development by Turbine.
Tolkien's stories are of adventure and valor, with the main characters taking the lead role on the side of good. DnD attempted to capture this very thing when it first came out over 30 years ago.
And many MMORPGs have fallen short in capturing the essence of Tolkiens vision.
Dev teams for both LotR and DDO have stated that there will be no PVP in these games. And I think the reasons for both are sound and I for one, applaud them for this. What is this obsession with wanting to play the evil side anyway?
Not sure why every single PvP discussion turns into a flame war. Do I think LotR should have PvP, yeah I sure do. Why is PvP so special? Because anyone can kite a mob into a tree and get it stuck and wack at it for 60mins till it dies, or something to that effect. PvP allows a player to adapt and fight something that is thinking and trying to out wit and out do you. PvP doesn't have to be evil. PvP does not have to be absolute or free for all. But I can't see how anyone would say there is no room for PvP in this game, when this game like SWG has very EXACT opposite sides that specificly fight each other.
I hope they come out with an expansion like City of Heros did and allow people to play the evil side and I hope they do at some point have PvP of some kind as well. Not everyone has to partisipate...and those that chose not to sometimes actually enjoy watching some of the large battles that can occur when you have player armies fighting each other.
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Not every game is perfect for pvp and not every game is perfect for pve. Not every game needs to have pvp in it to survive. For me i will play two games, For pve only i will play this game and for pvp i will play darkfall. I don't feel that every game has to have pvp, when i don't play a game i could care less what is in it. I will play this game so i do care what is in it and i accept what the devs have to offer. I like pvp and pve and i see this as the best of both worlds cause when i want pve only i will have this game to play and when i want pvp i can play darkfall which is a no holds bar no safe zone total pvp game.
The problem with pvp in a rpg is that you have to lvl your caracter making lvl a huge factor in pvp. In darkfall there is no caracter lvling, instead you lvl skills. Making skills the main factor in pvp and not lvl. In a pve game lvl makes more sense since you are more concerened with killing stronger mobs. I understand why some people who love tolkien and pvp want to see pvp in this game but unfortunately the devs have ruled pvp out. Leaving us with pve and if that does not suit ones taste then there are other games that will.
I love the people cheering for no PVP lol. Just clueless. The Original poster said nothing about wanting to gank people. What he's saying is, once youve killed every beast and completed all the quests etc, all thats left to challenge you is that PVP experience. Hell thats what these games are about, battling people from other States or Countries. If you just want no PVP then you might as well just play a Solo game.
Sure you can group with people to complete quests together, thats fun. But you need some PVP aspect. I don't care what anybody says. A PVP system is very important to have in any online game.
And stop crying about ganking, why don't you just adapt and learn how to survive, you get in a group and gank when that guy is out by himself. Then other times you'll have 5 on 5 or something. If your a low level getting killed , then get your ass in gear and start making some advancement and learn how to defend yourself. I'm not the greatest at PVP but hell i don't cry about it. I pick myself up and see what i can do to make it more of a challenge for the Uber PVP guy to kill me.
If there is NO PVP aspect of this game then i'll most likely only play it for a short time. I dont want to just fight the AI, i want to take on a real brain.
I am not sure if you are saying that i am cheering for no pvp. So i want to make it clear that I don't care if there is pvp. I pvp though i am not very good at it. In my last post i was stating my opinion on what was wrong with pvp in a lvling game that is rpg based. I am not crying about ganking or getting ganked though i do not partake in ganging up on one person with a bunch of people. I don't see that as fair pvp, though it is part of pvp and how people pvp.
No matter if the devs come up with some new pvp system or not this game is a game i will play because i have always dreamed of what it would be like to be in middle earth.