The best way to do that isn't through "loot drops" but through crafting. Everyone has the same ability to come by the same equipment, so long as the crafter is competant within the given system. I cite this because of SWG prior to the Geonosian cave, all weapons were relativly on the same playing field even though some would have been more powerful than others, it was usually made up with the other person having slightly better crafted armor, or a weapon with a faster usage speed, etc. It puts all weapons on the same field because any given "End game" level crafter can craft everything within the game, and therefore it's all an even playing field. Yes, sometimes it comes down to who got the first hit in, but not always. And it is a slightly competitive game to get the best materials (which are available to everyone btw.) It promotes crafting alot, and to me was one of the best ways of keeping the field even.
I hated SWG after the Geonosian cave, Holocrons and Jedi, but anyway, that's beside the point, just had to throw that out there.
I can't believe peoples want to be enslaved to a crafting system, not in Warhammer! LOL.
I don't mind if there is a uber loot system or not (both way can be argued for Warhammer), as long as I can access every part of it without doing something I dislike (raiding, PvP, crafting). If there is a part I can't access and it affect me in any serious way, I will do to the game the same I did to old EQ (took 2 years), DAoC (took 2 weeks) and WoW (took a day), without a second though. But those are mere words, Warhammer get a try no matter what they do, I can discard it just like I discard Dawn or Chaos League in a few moments.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I think there has to be some objective in PvP, tower and relics (and central keeps in the battle grounds) give a focus to the play, as do quests; if that's control bring it on.
I pray it has dedicated PvE zones; some days I look forward to difficult gameplay, other times I just want to chill and spend 30 mins culling the MOBs.
Yuk, at the rate I die in PvP I would never have enough loot to play competively, and I would be back to level 1 by the end of the week if the was an XP penalty.
There has to be some development, both in PvE and PvP, otherwise what is the point? It is a RPG after all. Which is interesting since Warhammer doesn't really have character developement.
I find it interesting that both the "carebear" and pvp servers in DAoC have low population (compared to the classic servers). This rather promotes the view that players like a mixture of PvE and PvP experiences, and a more casual gameplay than the intensive play need for sucessful high end content (Trials of Atlantis expansion).
Finally messaging your foes? Bound to be abused. Trust me, no one likes having their corpse jumped on; that's enough to get the message through. After all what are you going to say? "You sux noob!! Ha Ha"
IMO I hope they dont separate the servers like they do in DAoC. I think it would be better to have only maybe 4 separate servers and just have huge worlds that cater to as many peoples styles of play in each one.
You could have:
1. a PVE server,
2. a PVP server that allows you to attack any NPC or PC at anytime, though if you are in a civilized area you will get chased by gaurds or something. There has to be some sort of objective or consequence to PVP to help out the storyline and the new lowbies.
3. a Traditional RPG server where you make a somewhat randomly rolled character and have to stick with it and death is permanent but you also advance very, very quickly to make up for lost time from perma death and have fatepoints that allow you to save yourself from death or purchase better attributes and skills or help out an attack on something but you get only 4 of these points at first and only get more after completing huge epic quests. PVP in this would be like in a paper RPG where you can do whatever you want including killing NPC's but there are consequences depending on where it takes place just like in the PVP server but to a more severe extent like getting hunted down by gaurds or witch hunters and lynched. And if you get away you couldnt go back to that town for a long long time.
4. the last server would be a classic type server where you have a mixture of PVP and PVE similar to DAoC realm war system.
Originally posted by Anofalye I can't believe peoples want to be enslaved to a crafting system, not in Warhammer! LOL.
Believe it, in a game where a player can only have one character and the crafting system took up so much space in the players character creation, the crafter still thrived, because it was a fun way to play for many people. SWG was based primarily on crafters, from day one, they changed it a bit along the way, and I have no idea what it's like now, but Crafters please people. And trust me, SWG crafter grinding sucked, but people still loved doing it. Crafting is fun for some people, especially if they are not limited to only crafting.
Crafting systems are great for level gameplay. Loot systems are unbalancing, because it allows one, or one group of people to either camp a prize, and suddenly they're king of the hill. I hate PvP of that nature.
I choose crafting systems almost all the time. My best friend's prefered characters are crafters. He likes non-stressful gameplay. He likes advancing his creations through the game. And the more advanced the crafting system the better. He likes putting the perfect puzzle together and creating the "perfect" weapon, or whatever.
People will always love that type of character. Just becuase the bulk of the player base is combat oriented doesn't mean there aren't significant number of non-combat oriented players out there. So my point is, don't say, I don't want it, therefore no one does, and expect everyone to agree. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but it's the way I interpretted what you said. Being able to access a crafter system is easy, as long as the crafters are given the ability to offer to you their merchandise. And most crafting based systems have that, and many have multiple ways.
Originally posted by Scott762x51 IMO I hope they dont separate the servers like they do in DAoC. I think it would be better to have only maybe 4 separate servers and just have huge worlds that cater to as many peoples styles of play in each one. You could have: 1. a carebear server, 2. a PVP server that allows you to attack any NPC or PC at anytime, though if you are in a civilized area you will get chased by gaurds or something. There has to be some sort of objective or consequence to PVP to help out the storyline and the new lowbies. 3. a Traditional RPG server where you make a somewhat randomly rolled character and have to stick with it and death is permanent but you also advance very, very quickly to make up for lost time from perma death and have fatepoints that allow you to save yourself from death or purchase better attributes and skills or help out an attack on something but you get only 4 of these points at first and only get more after completing huge epic quests. PVP in this would be like in a paper RPG where you can do whatever you want including killing NPC's but there are consequences depending on where it takes place just like in the PVP server but to a more severe extent like getting hunted down by gaurds or witch hunters and lynched. And if you get away you couldnt go back to that town for a long long time. 4. the last server would be a classic type server where you have a mixture of PVP and PVE similar to DAoC realm war system.
Scott,
I usually enjoy your posts, even if I don't agree completely with them, and usually say nothing, but I must say this. Just because people prefer PvE, doesn't make them automaticly a "Carebear" and I dispise the term. the term Carebear is just as degrading as the word "Ganker" is to a PvPer. Some may enjoy being called that, but in my opinion, if you want to be taken seriously when posting, use the terms PvP and PvE, primarily because it's less threatining.
Now that I've gotten that off my chest,.... I agree, and hope they do the same, I like seperated servers to allow players to choose what they want to do. I don't like the "Traditional RPG" server involving "Permadeath" simply because that would irritate me, due to my interpretation of "Roleplaying" is "Play-acting" i.e. acting out a role, with others present to advance the scene. It's how I imagined Roleplaying, and although I know there are multiple different definitions of the word, it is somewhat deciving, to those who have their own understanding of the word "Roleplaying" Anyway, I'm never fond of Permadeath games. Just me. Anyway, ranting now, so I'll stop. Other than that, I hope you're right.
I just figured that was what everyone calls PVE now I dont dislike PVE actually I had just been reading someone elses post and the term stuck in my brain. To tell you the truth I rarely play PVP myself so I am kind of a PVE person but I wasnt saying it in a bad way. This was not meant to offend people who play that way. but I like the idea of PVP which is why I write about it alot. Here I will edit it to say PVE.
Ya RPG is a loaded term. It doesnt really mean anything anymore. Really everygame is a RPG because your acting as that character or faction in that game whether its FPS or strategy or whatever. The paper rpg server is what it should be called. The main purpose of this would be to cater to those who like the faster paced games. You would advance quickly and there would be no grind at all just a good storyline and the ability to do whatever you want. It would be made to allow you to quickly take part in any large scale war and play a significant role without having to play for months before even being able to see the good part of the game like in DAoC. I think it would be better than people think. It would be nothing like the old Diablo II hardcore server. One of the appeals would be that the game should keep track of your dead characters and tell how they died and what your accomplishments were. If it started to suck they could take away permadeath but i think it would be a fun way to play for people like me.
hit the post button twice on accident. I am writing while playing DAoC and I read and write posts while regenerating health. I hate that about this game. You have to sit and do nothing for like 2 full minutes just to play again. Guild Wars has a good idea with rapid health regen once you are not in combat anymore. I hope they do something similar with warhammer.
Yea, the name "Carebear" does stick, And lets face it, the names of that nature are always going to be around. And I most certainly don't want any ill feelings to anyone on here. So I hope you didn't mind my statements.
I wouldn't mind the quick regen out of combat as well. It's a great idea. A healing skill like in WoW wouldn't be so bad either. 1 thing I always hated about other games was you had to waste points on being able to heal yourself that you couldn't do some of the skills you would like to have. I.E. Ultima, SWG, CoH/CoV (in the Fitness pool of powers I mean) And other games that I've played you always end up having to either spend points to keep yourself even slightly alive, or you had to group no matter what. And dont' get me wrong, I like groups. But sometimes I want to log in for like 20 minutes, and just do some stuff, and having to try to find a group, and get them to do what YOU want to do sux. Especially when you are only going to be logged in for a short period of time. Solo optional, is what I enjoy, simply because I can't always log in for 4 hours like some people can, and I want to log into a game that I'm enjoying, and do something that I can to advance my character, or other similar gameplay.
No one likes to be grieved, you people who feed off the misery of others need to get some sort of counseling and quit trying to use MMOs as an outlet to torment people.
On that note, I think there will be allot to gain from the PVP, possibly bases, and what not like Anarchy Online or Linage 2 or the RVR stuff in DOAC. For people who dont want to have psychotic maniacs who masturbate while grieving people ruining their gaming experience, I dont think any modern MMO maker will subject people to that as they would loose business to Blizzard / Sony ect..
Originally posted by Ravenmgs On that note, I think there will be allot to gain from the PVP, possibly bases, and what not like Anarchy Online or Linage 2 or the RVR stuff in DOAC. For people who dont want to have psychotic maniacs who masturbate while grieving people ruining their gaming experience, I dont think any modern MMO maker will subject people to that as they would loose business to Blizzard / Sony ect..
LOL, you have a way with words. Its true that I enjoy fighting with others sometimes in PVP but I don't grieve people. I only insult a dead person if they started it with me and were trying to grieve me. I think there should be a feature that allows someone to filter all PVP chat so they dont have to hear what the person that just beat them down is saying if they dont want to without having to actively type in a filter so and so command. I usually get a good laugh from the insults. Some people are very creative in their grieving. Sometimes I dont care for it though and want to shut them up. I am a firm believer that all MMO's need a non-PVP area that includes everything that is cool in the PVP part of the game so those who dont like PVP can play their own way. I say this because thats how I play 60% of the time but sometimes I like to take my character and do some of what Ravenmgs described minus the masturbation part.
I wish all PvP'rs held the same non-griefing stand that you do Scott, its just a shame they don't by way of point I'll reference one of my last experiences of L2.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I was playing with a friend of mine who was happy going about a quest (I forget which as it was so long ago but you had to kill a specific number of critters near a pond), anyway there was a guy there who was tagging all the required creatures and as such blocking the quest - we asked him to leave it for a sec while he completed the quest, this guy just starts with a tirade of abuse to the point where the only option other than aborting the quest was to attack him, so my mate did that and this guys dies in seconds.
Unfortunately this flagged him for PvP and this guys team-mate turns up and kills him - usual stuff for PvP, yep you get an annoying guy and you can deal with him - all fair I say, what happened next was much more annoying.
My mate is now PvP flagged, which in L2 means you're fair game for anyone and he does the sensible thing and legs it, immediately he gets attacked by a total stranger and another and so on until he has a swarm of people chasing him just to get his loot when he dies!
Yeah it was sort of funny but it just shows how this sort of system fails, you start with a griefer (that is exactly what he was as I missed out a great deal of that part of the story as it was basically a tactic between him and his team-mate to get someone flagged for their gear abusing a quest bottleneck) and then the rest of the community join in to make things worse.
Currently Playing:GW2 Currently Following:Elder Scrolls Online Games in my wake:Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
see the first mmo rpg i ever played was lineage 2.... then i went to WoW and i was sooo god damn pissed at that game cause it was so carebear and no grind.... then i just kept playing L2 .. then i started and still am playing coh/cov and liking it even thoe no open pvp so i cant just go reap hell.. like in L2 i sit out side of gludin wit my lev 72 th stripped killing everything that moves in 1 hit with a hunter bow(3rd weakest bow in game) and plp hate me and i have over 500 pks but its a fuking blasts just shooting arrows and watching the lil bitches fall.... but in cov and coh i wanna kill so many lil bitches... sense warhammer is a mass killing board game i suspect that u will be able to open pvp everyone in un-arena areas...i dont think like if u were a orc u could kill another orc but perhaps a vampire count could kill another orc... i play warhammer with a 50k point army of vampire count .... u no for each race theirs usually 2 to 4 like bloodlines for vampires ther is.... and for chaos hordes theirs i think like hordes.... u no ..... i think u will be able to like pick like a bloodline in vampire counts case and not be able to open pvp your own bloodline .. but maybe another bloodline u could kill
Originally posted by vamps see the first mmo rpg i ever played was lineage 2.... then i went to WoW and i was sooo god damn pissed at that game cause it was so carebear and no grind.... then i just kept playing L2 .. then i started and still am playing coh/cov and liking it even thoe no open pvp so i cant just go reap hell.. like in L2 i sit out side of gludin wit my lev 72 th stripped killing everything that moves in 1 hit with a hunter bow(3rd weakest bow in game) and plp hate me and i have over 500 pks but its a fuking blasts just shooting arrows and watching the lil bitches fall.... but in cov and coh i wanna kill so many lil bitches... sense warhammer is a mass killing board game i suspect that u will be able to open pvp everyone in un-arena areas...i dont think like if u were a orc u could kill another orc but perhaps a vampire count could kill another orc... i play warhammer with a 50k point army of vampire count .... u no for each race theirs usually 2 to 4 like bloodlines for vampires ther is.... and for chaos hordes theirs i think like hordes.... u no ..... i think u will be able to like pick like a bloodline in vampire counts case and not be able to open pvp your own bloodline .. but maybe another bloodline u could kill
Right, so you're getting a blast ganking lowbies just outside the starting zones...tells a lot about what kind of player you are. Honestly, somebody mentioned permadeath here as somthing negative. For players like Vamps, who seem to enjoy camping a low level spot and ganking the lowbies, permadeath should be introduced (like in Age of Mourning: you gank, you get a warning, after a few warnings, your char dies, and it's permadeath).
Second Vamps, if you lie, please do it with a little more realism. From the way you write and from the way you behave, I estimate you to be somewhat between 10 and 13 years old. And you have a 50k point value Vamp Counts army? Yeah, right. I have a 14k Chaos army, and that's already a few a LOT of models (army showcase is full I have to store most of it in boxes). And God knows Chaos is expensive in points.
If you say you have a 50k points army, you are either:
a) lying, and not being very good at it (most probably)
b) not very good at counting
c) Overly spoiled by parents who MUST belong to the Onassis family (I don't wanna know how much a 50k points army costs)
------------------------------------------ Basil Fawlty: [to telephone operator] I've been trying to get through to the speaking clock... Well, it's engaged... Well, it's been engaged for ten minutes. How is this possible? My wife isn't talking to it.
no i am not 10 or 13 im actually 16 and i do have a 50k point army ive had it for a year and i just bought like 5 or 6k points 1 day maybe another day id buy 1k i have a day job and nutting to buy so i filled up my shelves with warhammer and for 2nd griefing is fun.... not really killing the lowbies just the amount of plp chasing u and wen the hi levs come u go grab ur gear out of wearhouse and beat each other up..... or even a handful of medium levs come for u and u kill all them it was really hard but ..... it was a challenge and the gameis boring besides that so i etheir go to everysingle castle seige and pk and the arena suks... so best form of pvp is mass pk wich is quite enjoyable wen ur drunk/hi........but ........not every1 drinks/smokes and it may be quite boring... and for last the reason i type like dis is 1 its quicker... and 2 im a sloppy typer and for 3rd i use a laptop most of the time wich has really small key for my fingers
Originally posted by BurningPain I will predict this game. - 100% controlled PVP (no spontaneous pvp at all) - Dedicated PVP zones so carebears will feel safety in non pvp zones. - When you die in PVP you won't lose any of your loot (so you are protected) - When you die in PVP you lose absolutely nothing. - You gain reward from PVP after earning a certain number of points (like pacman). - WOW Clone - This game will be carebear. - You won't be able to message your enemies in game thus defeating any type of roleplaying. Since World of Warcraft is the King of carebear games Warhammer won't be able to compete and will fail over time. This game will try and cater to weak minded players whose only interest is mindless PVE and items that take 9283091823 hours to get from a dungeon. BurningPain
Who are you? I am betting a Vanguard fan as they have the:
1. Most self centered jerks ever on their boards
2. The biggest mouth, and least knowledgeable
3. The smallest player base, "the lifeless raider dweeb"
4. The ones most likely to post on other game boards bashing them, because their game isn't even going to break 100,000 players. That's pathetic by todays standard.
Go back to their lousy game, and their lousy boards!
I am grown enough to say what I find entertaining and what I doesnt. If a dev say he reward tradeskills at the expense of other aspect of the game (best loot to be tradeskilled trash), I will turn my back on the game regardless of the name.
I didn't play SWG, but I certainly turn my back on EQ/WoW because of it raiding, on CoH because of the Hamidon, on DAoC/CoV(will do soon for CoV) because of the PvP. I turn my back on SoR for the PvP, the raiding and the tradeskilling. I turn my back on Horizons because of the tradeskilling.
If a dev developps a game thinking he can decide for me what is fun, he is in for a cold reality checks when his superiors are going to tell him they lack the amount of subscribtions which means his good friend Bob won't be working with him anymore but moved to another project.
Some devs developp game for themselves rather than for the player base, which is a mistake. When you work you need to figure what can be FUN for the majority of player, not for yourself alone. Tradeskill/PvP/Raiding enforcing are all mistakes and they are all doomed to limited success. Yes WoW would have a much greater success if it was not ending in a raiding trap, most peoples are not happy of such an ending.
Will Warhammer be a success? I certainly hope so! Will I give it a try? Almost certainly! Will I stick to it if PvP (tradeskill or raiding as well) is enforced on me? Extremely doubtful, but in the case of Warhammer, I am willing to ignore many warning and give it a try. The franchise did amazingly well in the past sometimes.
If Kunou bump in and try to convince me about a game named DAoC, I will remember him that every server are either enforcing PvP or Raiding, which are both unacceptable situations, especially for an old game with dated graphics! Warhammer online is getting a free chance that most games never get from me, odd are I won't enjoy the PvP anyway and leave if I have to, but are they even going to enforce PvP? Those are questions nobody can answer now except maybe some staff at Mythic and considering they want to see Vanguard flop miserably (or more accurately, they want to win the lion share, not Vanguard or competitors), they wont repeat what I heard about Imperator and was getting me extremely motivated, if Vanguard can't read and learn, too bad for him, I don't think Mythic ever move backward in the past and I read a LOT of nice stuff on Imperator! Which only improve my desire to try Warhammer! Anyway, if I leave Warhammer for any reason, I trust Mythic to be humble enough to learn and progress, although folks like Kunou show clear signs of Johnyfication!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I know what you mean about wanting the Dev's not to decide for you what is fun, SWG gives the perfect example for this. After 3 different game incarnations, they've completely lost most of their original fanbase.
However, I also feel most people, (I include myself in this, so It's not a shot at you) Place a very high expectation on Devs to make the game that the fans want, Exactly what that player wants. For ANY player to assume their preferances are what every player wants is egotistic. I'm not saying you do. What I'm saying is a player must attempt to find one or two primary things they expect from a game, and be willing to accept the lesser things. For me it's Storyline and Roleplay-ability aspect. The way PvP works is up there, but it must be purly voluntary when it comes to the server or game I play. I enjoy pvp, but it's something I want to feel like doing. If you have a checklist of things you want to be just right, you will not be happy because no game can be developed to YOUR expectatioins, unless the Dev Team Leader has the exact same vision as you do. Which is almost impossible. Especially since Game Devs usually use what is popular among the ENTIRE fanbase. And to assume that a Dev doesn't make the game the way you want it to, and blame them for not listening to the fanbase is again a bit over the top. The reason they devolop things the way they do is because they believe the fanbase will enjoy it. If you don't, it's not that they're not listening to the fanbase.
This is one of the reasons you can expect Warhammer to have some things that WoW does, and some things that DAoC has. 1. Because it's what's popular, and 2. Because it's what they're familiar with. 3 would be what the Dev Team leader is familiar with, or what's worked for him on past projects.
There are instances of Game Dev's not listening to fanbase, but it's usually not involved in the inital development of the game. Primarily because fanbase doesn't have much input on the initial development. The only time Fanbase comments start coming in is during Beta. That's when you can tell if the Dev's are listening. If there's something wrong, a bug that's huge, or issue that gains alot of complaints and the Dev's do nothing to attempt to fix it, that's usually a given that they're not listening.
I agree with you that the dev's often do what they think is fun. But let's face it, A developer is nothing more than a fan who actually does the developing for a living. So if you think that's wrong, become a developer and develop your own game, the way you want it. If what you like is what everyone likes, it'll be a smash hit. If not, You'll starve.
Anyfalye, this was in response to you, but not particularly directed at you. It's mostly for everyone's benifit. So I hope no one takes offense to it.
Originally posted by vamps no i am not 10 or 13 im actually 16 and i do have a 50k point army ive had it for a year and i just bought like 5 or 6k points 1 day maybe another day id buy 1k i have a day job and nutting to buy so i filled up my shelves with warhammer and for 2nd griefing is fun.... not really killing the lowbies just the amount of plp chasing u and wen the hi levs come u go grab ur gear out of wearhouse and beat each other up..... or even a handful of medium levs come for u and u kill all them it was really hard but ..... it was a challenge and the gameis boring besides that so i etheir go to everysingle castle seige and pk and the arena suks... so best form of pvp is mass pk wich is quite enjoyable wen ur drunk/hi........but ........not every1 drinks/smokes and it may be quite boring... and for last the reason i type like dis is 1 its quicker... and 2 im a sloppy typer and for 3rd i use a laptop most of the time wich has really small key for my fingers
There's a simple way to settle this little "I have 50K pts of Vampire counts" issue. Why don't you give us an estimate of how your army looks? I'll give you an example, by way of telling you what I have in Vampire Counts.
I have about 5-6k worth of VC.
About 200 Skeletons, 80 Zombies, 10-15 Vampire Characters, 2 Black Coaches, 1 Zombie Dragon, 10 or so Fell Bats, 2-3 Wraiths, 20-30 Black Knights, 5-6 Spirit Host bases. a handfull or two of the old Metal Grave guard and about 10-20 of the newer ones. Couple of Banshee's and about 30 gouls or so. Other than that I'd actually have to see what else I have, because alot of stuff is still in boxes.
Now if you have 50k of VC you'll have to have about 10 times that. That's a ridiculous amount that no one needs, neither can they ever use. So my main question would be if you actually have 50k worth of VC. WHY?
So far, of all the "visions" I read, Imperator was the one who impress me the most. There was a game who got cancel as well who impress me...Wish. But enought, me I am an achiever, an hoarder if you prefer...and I like to solo or to group! If you want to tickles my brain and my mind, as long as it is GBT sure, real time need to be nearly a no-brainer...but that is me.
Tradeskills are not appealing to the majority, you have the proof under your eyes. Neither is raiding. PvP can be appealing occasionnaly, but on a hard case I doubt it.
You know...Warhammer COULD become the leader in the industry of the MMO, it won't happen at release, the franchise is not strong enough for a Blizzard-like fire work. But it can beat WoW in the long run if the devs build a great game that is fun for the majority of players. Considering that all MMO end in PvP/Raiding/Tradeskill yet focus on grouping or solo for most of their live, wouldn't it make sense to end in solo/grouping PvE as well if you plan to beat the crap out of WoW?
I think a casual will have more respect for a no-lifer who deserve his reward than for a guild who raid for the rewards, especially that nothing prevent any casual to push a little harder on the grouping/soloing side if they have a few free days/weeks.
If the guy who is stronger than me at what I am playing get it by playing this game, I respect it...if he raid, I scowl.
And since you bring the topic...I become a game designer over this raiding issue (talk about a driving goal). I am a noob designer, but I sure learn how to throw pooh at devs who are self absorb! (not in a MMO for now)
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
i dont use all 50k at once i kinda have to many and i use like usually 2-6k in a game cause not many people have that much .... i have bein in a war 45k vs 46k i was the 46k and it took us about 3 days of alot of playing to finish it we almost just threw in the towl and i could not play with my whole army cause i have like 2 zathuras... havent played warhammer in like 5 months but i gave all my books to my lil bro so he can learn he has a 10k chaos horde army .... zathura himself is like 1-2k points i dont no why i have 2 i won 1 in a tourny .. but anyways i have over 100 death knights and like 300 skeletons an a shit load of zombies somewhere on my warhammer board or under my bed
That really makes me wonder. I've been playing VC since it came out in 5th ed, and played undead before that, and I have no idea who or what Zathura is, except a newly released movie from the makers of Jumanji.
The only named Vampire Counts Special Characters, are the Carsteins, and I've only seen 4 characters of that line. two Necrarch's, two Blood Dragons, and one Lamian. And none of them are named Zathura. I have a feeling you're talking about Zacharias, mounted on top of the Zombie Dragon? He's a little over 1k, and I can understand having two of them, although I wouldn't paint up but one of them as the Special Character. Mostly because half of the tournaments out there don't allow special characters anyway.
Hey, if you have 50k worth of VC, more power to ya. Personally I have 25k or more of Warhammer, but it's divided among a bunch of different armies. I'd get bored with just playing one army.
Well, anyway, if you've got 100 Black Knights that's quite a few, around 2k worth of knights alone. So It's not that I don't believe you. Just curious is all.
Anofalye, Yea I agree with you that Warhammer could be the best MMO out there, if they do it right.
If they make Tradeskills optional, or competitive with loot, or something of that nature that could make it interresting. and let those who are a minority, but it's what they love doing, still do it and still have a great game to do it with.
I always hope they can find a balance in everthing, and if you are truly trying to get into the profession, good luck with it.
Originally posted by Dark_Lord_13 Anofalye, Yea I agree with you that Warhammer could be the best MMO out there, if they do it right. If they make Tradeskills optional, or competitive with loot, or something of that nature that could make it interresting. and let those who are a minority, but it's what they love doing, still do it and still have a great game to do it with. I always hope they can find a balance in everthing, and if you are truly trying to get into the profession, good luck with it.
Personnaly (sp.?), I think that Tradeskills should be an important part of any MMORPG. The problem most MMORPGS have, is that crafting is generally boring, so that few people are willing to devote the time. Few crafters= generally high prices for crafted gear.
So, what Mythic needs to do, is to bring us an interesting crafting system that is either a) doesn't take too much time and/or b) is fun.
It pains me to say this, but they should take World of Warcraft's crafting system as an example (I feel bad, I just said something positive about World of Walt Disney ). The system wasn't fun at all, but it was a quick sytem and it wasn't difficult to gain relatively high skill in it.
------------------------------------------ Basil Fawlty: [to telephone operator] I've been trying to get through to the speaking clock... Well, it's engaged... Well, it's been engaged for ten minutes. How is this possible? My wife isn't talking to it.
Comments
The best way to do that isn't through "loot drops" but through crafting. Everyone has the same ability to come by the same equipment, so long as the crafter is competant within the given system. I cite this because of SWG prior to the Geonosian cave, all weapons were relativly on the same playing field even though some would have been more powerful than others, it was usually made up with the other person having slightly better crafted armor, or a weapon with a faster usage speed, etc. It puts all weapons on the same field because any given "End game" level crafter can craft everything within the game, and therefore it's all an even playing field. Yes, sometimes it comes down to who got the first hit in, but not always. And it is a slightly competitive game to get the best materials (which are available to everyone btw.) It promotes crafting alot, and to me was one of the best ways of keeping the field even.
I hated SWG after the Geonosian cave, Holocrons and Jedi, but anyway, that's beside the point, just had to throw that out there.
I can't believe peoples want to be enslaved to a crafting system, not in Warhammer! LOL.
I don't mind if there is a uber loot system or not (both way can be argued for Warhammer), as long as I can access every part of it without doing something I dislike (raiding, PvP, crafting). If there is a part I can't access and it affect me in any serious way, I will do to the game the same I did to old EQ (took 2 years), DAoC (took 2 weeks) and WoW (took a day), without a second though. But those are mere words, Warhammer get a try no matter what they do, I can discard it just like I discard Dawn or Chaos League in a few moments.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I think there has to be some objective in PvP, tower and relics (and central keeps in the battle grounds) give a focus to the play, as do quests; if that's control bring it on.
I pray it has dedicated PvE zones; some days I look forward to difficult gameplay, other times I just want to chill and spend 30 mins culling the MOBs.
Yuk, at the rate I die in PvP I would never have enough loot to play competively, and I would be back to level 1 by the end of the week if the was an XP penalty.
There has to be some development, both in PvE and PvP, otherwise what is the point? It is a RPG after all. Which is interesting since Warhammer doesn't really have character developement.
I find it interesting that both the "carebear" and pvp servers in DAoC have low population (compared to the classic servers). This rather promotes the view that players like a mixture of PvE and PvP experiences, and a more casual gameplay than the intensive play need for sucessful high end content (Trials of Atlantis expansion).
Finally messaging your foes? Bound to be abused. Trust me, no one likes having their corpse jumped on; that's enough to get the message through. After all what are you going to say? "You sux noob!! Ha Ha"
IMO I hope they dont separate the servers like they do in DAoC. I think it would be better to have only maybe 4 separate servers and just have huge worlds that cater to as many peoples styles of play in each one.
You could have:
1. a PVE server,
2. a PVP server that allows you to attack any NPC or PC at anytime, though if you are in a civilized area you will get chased by gaurds or something. There has to be some sort of objective or consequence to PVP to help out the storyline and the new lowbies.
3. a Traditional RPG server where you make a somewhat randomly rolled character and have to stick with it and death is permanent but you also advance very, very quickly to make up for lost time from perma death and have fatepoints that allow you to save yourself from death or purchase better attributes and skills or help out an attack on something but you get only 4 of these points at first and only get more after completing huge epic quests. PVP in this would be like in a paper RPG where you can do whatever you want including killing NPC's but there are consequences depending on where it takes place just like in the PVP server but to a more severe extent like getting hunted down by gaurds or witch hunters and lynched. And if you get away you couldnt go back to that town for a long long time.
4. the last server would be a classic type server where you have a mixture of PVP and PVE similar to DAoC realm war system.
http://home.comcast.net/~scott762x51/scott762x51.html
Believe it, in a game where a player can only have one character and the crafting system took up so much space in the players character creation, the crafter still thrived, because it was a fun way to play for many people. SWG was based primarily on crafters, from day one, they changed it a bit along the way, and I have no idea what it's like now, but Crafters please people. And trust me, SWG crafter grinding sucked, but people still loved doing it. Crafting is fun for some people, especially if they are not limited to only crafting.
Crafting systems are great for level gameplay. Loot systems are unbalancing, because it allows one, or one group of people to either camp a prize, and suddenly they're king of the hill. I hate PvP of that nature.
I choose crafting systems almost all the time. My best friend's prefered characters are crafters. He likes non-stressful gameplay. He likes advancing his creations through the game. And the more advanced the crafting system the better. He likes putting the perfect puzzle together and creating the "perfect" weapon, or whatever.
People will always love that type of character. Just becuase the bulk of the player base is combat oriented doesn't mean there aren't significant number of non-combat oriented players out there. So my point is, don't say, I don't want it, therefore no one does, and expect everyone to agree. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but it's the way I interpretted what you said. Being able to access a crafter system is easy, as long as the crafters are given the ability to offer to you their merchandise. And most crafting based systems have that, and many have multiple ways.
Scott,
I usually enjoy your posts, even if I don't agree completely with them, and usually say nothing, but I must say this. Just because people prefer PvE, doesn't make them automaticly a "Carebear" and I dispise the term. the term Carebear is just as degrading as the word "Ganker" is to a PvPer. Some may enjoy being called that, but in my opinion, if you want to be taken seriously when posting, use the terms PvP and PvE, primarily because it's less threatining.
Now that I've gotten that off my chest,.... I agree, and hope they do the same, I like seperated servers to allow players to choose what they want to do. I don't like the "Traditional RPG" server involving "Permadeath" simply because that would irritate me, due to my interpretation of "Roleplaying" is "Play-acting" i.e. acting out a role, with others present to advance the scene. It's how I imagined Roleplaying, and although I know there are multiple different definitions of the word, it is somewhat deciving, to those who have their own understanding of the word "Roleplaying" Anyway, I'm never fond of Permadeath games. Just me. Anyway, ranting now, so I'll stop. Other than that, I hope you're right.
I just figured that was what everyone calls PVE now I dont dislike PVE actually I had just been reading someone elses post and the term stuck in my brain. To tell you the truth I rarely play PVP myself so I am kind of a PVE person but I wasnt saying it in a bad way. This was not meant to offend people who play that way. but I like the idea of PVP which is why I write about it alot. Here I will edit it to say PVE.
Ya RPG is a loaded term. It doesnt really mean anything anymore. Really everygame is a RPG because your acting as that character or faction in that game whether its FPS or strategy or whatever. The paper rpg server is what it should be called. The main purpose of this would be to cater to those who like the faster paced games. You would advance quickly and there would be no grind at all just a good storyline and the ability to do whatever you want. It would be made to allow you to quickly take part in any large scale war and play a significant role without having to play for months before even being able to see the good part of the game like in DAoC. I think it would be better than people think. It would be nothing like the old Diablo II hardcore server. One of the appeals would be that the game should keep track of your dead characters and tell how they died and what your accomplishments were. If it started to suck they could take away permadeath but i think it would be a fun way to play for people like me.
http://home.comcast.net/~scott762x51/scott762x51.html
hit the post button twice on accident. I am writing while playing DAoC and I read and write posts while regenerating health. I hate that about this game. You have to sit and do nothing for like 2 full minutes just to play again. Guild Wars has a good idea with rapid health regen once you are not in combat anymore. I hope they do something similar with warhammer.
http://home.comcast.net/~scott762x51/scott762x51.html
Yea, the name "Carebear" does stick, And lets face it, the names of that nature are always going to be around. And I most certainly don't want any ill feelings to anyone on here. So I hope you didn't mind my statements.
I wouldn't mind the quick regen out of combat as well. It's a great idea. A healing skill like in WoW wouldn't be so bad either. 1 thing I always hated about other games was you had to waste points on being able to heal yourself that you couldn't do some of the skills you would like to have. I.E. Ultima, SWG, CoH/CoV (in the Fitness pool of powers I mean) And other games that I've played you always end up having to either spend points to keep yourself even slightly alive, or you had to group no matter what. And dont' get me wrong, I like groups. But sometimes I want to log in for like 20 minutes, and just do some stuff, and having to try to find a group, and get them to do what YOU want to do sux. Especially when you are only going to be logged in for a short period of time. Solo optional, is what I enjoy, simply because I can't always log in for 4 hours like some people can, and I want to log into a game that I'm enjoying, and do something that I can to advance my character, or other similar gameplay.
No one likes to be grieved, you people who feed off the misery of others need to get some sort of counseling and quit trying to use MMOs as an outlet to torment people.
On that note, I think there will be allot to gain from the PVP, possibly bases, and what not like Anarchy Online or Linage 2 or the RVR stuff in DOAC. For people who dont want to have psychotic maniacs who masturbate while grieving people ruining their gaming experience, I dont think any modern MMO maker will subject people to that as they would loose business to Blizzard / Sony ect..
http://home.comcast.net/~scott762x51/scott762x51.html
I wish all PvP'rs held the same non-griefing stand that you do Scott, its just a shame they don't by way of point I'll reference one of my last experiences of L2.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I was playing with a friend of mine who was happy going about a quest (I forget which as it was so long ago but you had to kill a specific number of critters near a pond), anyway there was a guy there who was tagging all the required creatures and as such blocking the quest - we asked him to leave it for a sec while he completed the quest, this guy just starts with a tirade of abuse to the point where the only option other than aborting the quest was to attack him, so my mate did that and this guys dies in seconds.
Unfortunately this flagged him for PvP and this guys team-mate turns up and kills him - usual stuff for PvP, yep you get an annoying guy and you can deal with him - all fair I say, what happened next was much more annoying.
My mate is now PvP flagged, which in L2 means you're fair game for anyone and he does the sensible thing and legs it, immediately he gets attacked by a total stranger and another and so on until he has a swarm of people chasing him just to get his loot when he dies!
Yeah it was sort of funny but it just shows how this sort of system fails, you start with a griefer (that is exactly what he was as I missed out a great deal of that part of the story as it was basically a tactic between him and his team-mate to get someone flagged for their gear abusing a quest bottleneck) and then the rest of the community join in to make things worse.
Currently Playing: GW2
Currently Following: Elder Scrolls Online
Games in my wake: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
see the first mmo rpg i ever played was lineage 2.... then i went to WoW and i was sooo god damn pissed at that game cause it was so carebear and no grind.... then i just kept playing L2 .. then i started and still am playing coh/cov and liking it even thoe no open pvp so i cant just go reap hell.. like in L2 i sit out side of gludin wit my lev 72 th stripped killing everything that moves in 1 hit with a hunter bow(3rd weakest bow in game) and plp hate me and i have over 500 pks but its a fuking blasts just shooting arrows and watching the lil bitches fall.... but in cov and coh i wanna kill so many lil bitches... sense warhammer is a mass killing board game i suspect that u will be able to open pvp everyone in un-arena areas...i dont think like if u were a orc u could kill another orc but perhaps a vampire count could kill another orc... i play warhammer with a 50k point army of vampire count .... u no for each race theirs usually 2 to 4 like bloodlines for vampires ther is.... and for chaos hordes theirs i think like hordes.... u no ..... i think u will be able to like pick like a bloodline in vampire counts case and not be able to open pvp your own bloodline .. but maybe another bloodline u could kill
lineage 2
dillign-30 active-teon
Right, so you're getting a blast ganking lowbies just outside the starting zones...tells a lot about what kind of player you are. Honestly, somebody mentioned permadeath here as somthing negative. For players like Vamps, who seem to enjoy camping a low level spot and ganking the lowbies, permadeath should be introduced (like in Age of Mourning: you gank, you get a warning, after a few warnings, your char dies, and it's permadeath).
Second Vamps, if you lie, please do it with a little more realism. From the way you write and from the way you behave, I estimate you to be somewhat between 10 and 13 years old. And you have a 50k point value Vamp Counts army? Yeah, right. I have a 14k Chaos army, and that's already a few a LOT of models (army showcase is full
I have to store most of it in boxes). And God knows Chaos is expensive in points.
If you say you have a 50k points army, you are either:
a) lying, and not being very good at it (most probably)
b) not very good at counting
c) Overly spoiled by parents who MUST belong to the Onassis family (I don't wanna know how much a 50k points army costs)
------------------------------------------
Basil Fawlty: [to telephone operator] I've been trying to get through to the speaking clock... Well, it's engaged... Well, it's been engaged for ten minutes. How is this possible? My wife isn't talking to it.
lineage 2
dillign-30 active-teon
Who are you? I am betting a Vanguard fan as they have the:
1. Most self centered jerks ever on their boards
2. The biggest mouth, and least knowledgeable
3. The smallest player base, "the lifeless raider dweeb"
4. The ones most likely to post on other game boards bashing them, because their game isn't even going to break 100,000 players. That's pathetic by todays standard.
Go back to their lousy game, and their lousy boards!
Dark Lord,
I am grown enough to say what I find entertaining and what I doesnt. If a dev say he reward tradeskills at the expense of other aspect of the game (best loot to be tradeskilled trash), I will turn my back on the game regardless of the name.
I didn't play SWG, but I certainly turn my back on EQ/WoW because of it raiding, on CoH because of the Hamidon, on DAoC/CoV(will do soon for CoV) because of the PvP. I turn my back on SoR for the PvP, the raiding and the tradeskilling. I turn my back on Horizons because of the tradeskilling.
If a dev developps a game thinking he can decide for me what is fun, he is in for a cold reality checks when his superiors are going to tell him they lack the amount of subscribtions which means his good friend Bob won't be working with him anymore but moved to another project.
Some devs developp game for themselves rather than for the player base, which is a mistake. When you work you need to figure what can be FUN for the majority of player, not for yourself alone. Tradeskill/PvP/Raiding enforcing are all mistakes and they are all doomed to limited success. Yes WoW would have a much greater success if it was not ending in a raiding trap, most peoples are not happy of such an ending.
Will Warhammer be a success? I certainly hope so! Will I give it a try? Almost certainly! Will I stick to it if PvP (tradeskill or raiding as well) is enforced on me? Extremely doubtful, but in the case of Warhammer, I am willing to ignore many warning and give it a try. The franchise did amazingly well in the past sometimes.
If Kunou bump in and try to convince me about a game named DAoC, I will remember him that every server are either enforcing PvP or Raiding, which are both unacceptable situations, especially for an old game with dated graphics! Warhammer online is getting a free chance that most games never get from me, odd are I won't enjoy the PvP anyway and leave if I have to, but are they even going to enforce PvP? Those are questions nobody can answer now except maybe some staff at Mythic and considering they want to see Vanguard flop miserably (or more accurately, they want to win the lion share, not Vanguard or competitors), they wont repeat what I heard about Imperator and was getting me extremely motivated, if Vanguard can't read and learn, too bad for him, I don't think Mythic ever move backward in the past and I read a LOT of nice stuff on Imperator! Which only improve my desire to try Warhammer! Anyway, if I leave Warhammer for any reason, I trust Mythic to be humble enough to learn and progress, although folks like Kunou show clear signs of Johnyfication!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I know what you mean about wanting the Dev's not to decide for you what is fun, SWG gives the perfect example for this. After 3 different game incarnations, they've completely lost most of their original fanbase.
However, I also feel most people, (I include myself in this, so It's not a shot at you) Place a very high expectation on Devs to make the game that the fans want, Exactly what that player wants. For ANY player to assume their preferances are what every player wants is egotistic. I'm not saying you do. What I'm saying is a player must attempt to find one or two primary things they expect from a game, and be willing to accept the lesser things. For me it's Storyline and Roleplay-ability aspect. The way PvP works is up there, but it must be purly voluntary when it comes to the server or game I play. I enjoy pvp, but it's something I want to feel like doing. If you have a checklist of things you want to be just right, you will not be happy because no game can be developed to YOUR expectatioins, unless the Dev Team Leader has the exact same vision as you do. Which is almost impossible. Especially since Game Devs usually use what is popular among the ENTIRE fanbase. And to assume that a Dev doesn't make the game the way you want it to, and blame them for not listening to the fanbase is again a bit over the top. The reason they devolop things the way they do is because they believe the fanbase will enjoy it. If you don't, it's not that they're not listening to the fanbase.
This is one of the reasons you can expect Warhammer to have some things that WoW does, and some things that DAoC has. 1. Because it's what's popular, and 2. Because it's what they're familiar with. 3 would be what the Dev Team leader is familiar with, or what's worked for him on past projects.
There are instances of Game Dev's not listening to fanbase, but it's usually not involved in the inital development of the game. Primarily because fanbase doesn't have much input on the initial development. The only time Fanbase comments start coming in is during Beta. That's when you can tell if the Dev's are listening. If there's something wrong, a bug that's huge, or issue that gains alot of complaints and the Dev's do nothing to attempt to fix it, that's usually a given that they're not listening.
I agree with you that the dev's often do what they think is fun. But let's face it, A developer is nothing more than a fan who actually does the developing for a living. So if you think that's wrong, become a developer and develop your own game, the way you want it. If what you like is what everyone likes, it'll be a smash hit. If not, You'll starve.
Anyfalye, this was in response to you, but not particularly directed at you. It's mostly for everyone's benifit. So I hope no one takes offense to it.
There's a simple way to settle this little "I have 50K pts of Vampire counts" issue. Why don't you give us an estimate of how your army looks? I'll give you an example, by way of telling you what I have in Vampire Counts.
I have about 5-6k worth of VC.
About 200 Skeletons, 80 Zombies, 10-15 Vampire Characters, 2 Black Coaches, 1 Zombie Dragon, 10 or so Fell Bats, 2-3 Wraiths, 20-30 Black Knights, 5-6 Spirit Host bases. a handfull or two of the old Metal Grave guard and about 10-20 of the newer ones. Couple of Banshee's and about 30 gouls or so. Other than that I'd actually have to see what else I have, because alot of stuff is still in boxes.
Now if you have 50k of VC you'll have to have about 10 times that. That's a ridiculous amount that no one needs, neither can they ever use. So my main question would be if you actually have 50k worth of VC. WHY?
No offense taken. You have opinions, I does.
So far, of all the "visions" I read, Imperator was the one who impress me the most. There was a game who got cancel as well who impress me...Wish. But enought, me I am an achiever, an hoarder if you prefer...and I like to solo or to group!
If you want to tickles my brain and my mind, as long as it is GBT sure, real time need to be nearly a no-brainer...but that is me.
Tradeskills are not appealing to the majority, you have the proof under your eyes. Neither is raiding. PvP can be appealing occasionnaly, but on a hard case I doubt it.
You know...Warhammer COULD become the leader in the industry of the MMO, it won't happen at release, the franchise is not strong enough for a Blizzard-like fire work. But it can beat WoW in the long run if the devs build a great game that is fun for the majority of players. Considering that all MMO end in PvP/Raiding/Tradeskill yet focus on grouping or solo for most of their live, wouldn't it make sense to end in solo/grouping PvE as well if you plan to beat the crap out of WoW?
I think a casual will have more respect for a no-lifer who deserve his reward than for a guild who raid for the rewards, especially that nothing prevent any casual to push a little harder on the grouping/soloing side if they have a few free days/weeks.
If the guy who is stronger than me at what I am playing get it by playing this game, I respect it...if he raid, I scowl.
And since you bring the topic...I become a game designer over this raiding issue (talk about a driving goal). I am a noob designer, but I sure learn how to throw pooh at devs who are self absorb!
(not in a MMO for now)
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
lineage 2
dillign-30 active-teon
Well Vamps,
That really makes me wonder. I've been playing VC since it came out in 5th ed, and played undead before that, and I have no idea who or what Zathura is, except a newly released movie from the makers of Jumanji.
The only named Vampire Counts Special Characters, are the Carsteins, and I've only seen 4 characters of that line. two Necrarch's, two Blood Dragons, and one Lamian. And none of them are named Zathura. I have a feeling you're talking about Zacharias, mounted on top of the Zombie Dragon? He's a little over 1k, and I can understand having two of them, although I wouldn't paint up but one of them as the Special Character. Mostly because half of the tournaments out there don't allow special characters anyway.
Hey, if you have 50k worth of VC, more power to ya. Personally I have 25k or more of Warhammer, but it's divided among a bunch of different armies. I'd get bored with just playing one army.
Well, anyway, if you've got 100 Black Knights that's quite a few, around 2k worth of knights alone. So It's not that I don't believe you. Just curious is all.
Anofalye, Yea I agree with you that Warhammer could be the best MMO out there, if they do it right.
If they make Tradeskills optional, or competitive with loot, or something of that nature that could make it interresting. and let those who are a minority, but it's what they love doing, still do it and still have a great game to do it with.
I always hope they can find a balance in everthing, and if you are truly trying to get into the profession, good luck with it.
Oops, accidentally double posted. Gotta love computers.
------------------------------------------
Basil Fawlty: [to telephone operator] I've been trying to get through to the speaking clock... Well, it's engaged... Well, it's been engaged for ten minutes. How is this possible? My wife isn't talking to it.