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The Beginning of the End
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I guess those 13.5K (at the time) playing the CoV end of beta event don't exist and wouldn't normally be divided amongst the 11 live servers.
I concur with this guess.
COV beta is open to everyone, not just players currently subscribed to COH.
Since it is a new product with new content and better advertised than COH free trials, it would make sense that it has a significantly higher population than any COH free trial, and has attracted not only to existing COH subscribers but also previous COH subscribers.
I think it would be very unreasonable to assume that each of those 13.5k primetime players (wherever this number came from) can otherwise be found logged onto 1 of 11 COH servers, and that even if they could 1.2k players per server (at primetime on event of the year night) is not exactly a level of population to get excited about.
As a reality check, it is of note that Eve-online a much older game has about this many online in one server alone during primetime.
The number came from logging onto the CoV beta servers and doing "an all" search, which shows sever population.
CoV beta was not open to all, it was open to those who were long term CoH players and those who pre-ordered CoV (new and old players). Everyone one of them has a CoH/CoV account. Hence if no beta server, they would be on the live ones (or will be if new, when CoV hits the shelves next week). The weekend open stress test took place a few weeks back and those people weren't aloud back in once it was complete, just to clarify.
No one is trying to say CoH has high population, but add those ~1.2k (per server) to what was on live (750, on Justice) you have 1.95k (~20k overall) people online per sever (as an estimate). Which is a slight increase over what CoH has been sitting at for over a year (i.e. the 1.3 - 1.7k ish figures per server, at about the same time of day). So the claim population has dropped dramatically is completely inaccurate. Hence where this discussion came from. Those figures are even before a single retail box of CoV (outside of pre-order) has been sold.
Your information is incorrect.
Non subscribing ex-players of COH were all sent beta invites too, having an account is not the same as being an active subscriber.
I have recieved emails asking me to distribute Beta Cd keys to friends and have received them from friends also.
City of Vilains Beta test was available to all Fileplanet users.
There have been press releases in the COH forums about COH players getting priority if they played solidly for 6 months first etc etc etc. Gradually they have opened the test to more and more players, presuambly until they had enough to stress test the servers at expected capacity.
I would guesstimate from your data that 13.5k is the playerbase they are anticipating for COV.
I find that the only time that population could conceivably reach the numbers you describe is during those ten day trials, during which Atlas park lags and they add Atlas Park 1, The second the trials expire the populations return to very sparse in all but peak hours.
No, my information is correct.
While you are correct that some ex-CoH players did manage to get a beta invite, there numbers weren't great. Also Fileplanet access was for the stress test weekend ONLY, after that access was denied and no other outlet was offered access. They then opened up the beta servers to include those who had pre-ordered CoV, no other sources. The only statement Cryptic have made regarding pre-order beta keys that if you are already in beta you may issue them to friends instead. Which grant, will sway the figures a bit. How much, unknown and we'll find out next week. Chances are many of those went out (or are going to) purchase retail, CoV has a lot of hype at the moment.
Also CoV is not separate (other than PvE content) from CoH, just both include the core game engine so you don't need to buy CoH first. They are to resided on the same servers and represent two fractions (good and evil) within the same game. Hence the server population you will see if running a CoH installed client will be the same as if you either updated it with CoV or simply installed CoV. Its City of Heros and Villains, ultimatly and those are the figures server loads will represent.
So that 13.5k players is most likely all the COH players + all the COV beta testers in total. (In primetime on the biggest event of the year and also including non subscribers on limited trials).
As for only "some" of the accounts getting invites, I think you might find they ALL did. I have yet to talk to a player that did not receive one. A mailbot sent one to each of my accounts and one to everyone I know.
I suspect that the number of ex-subscribers to COH is much larger than any active subscriptions. The game has been running for a year. Not many people stay subscribed for over 3 months.
No!!!
When I pulled those figures I did two things. Look at the three CoV beta servers and the live CoH server I play one, which is Justice. Overall CoV had ~13.5k players online at that time. My live server had 750. There are 11 live server.
13.5k / 11 = ~1.2k
1.2k + 750 puts Justice server potentially at 1.95k.
It was stated that CoH's pupulation had dramacically decreased, while in reality it has stayed between 1.3 - 1.7k on Justice (for the time period I play). Taking the above into consideration it allows for ~5,500 of those CoV beta players not to be countable (that being ~500 players per live server) for a decline to have occured.
So the statement about the decline is incorrect. CoH's numbers have only dropped since the beta and especially after the pre-order invites. They didn't go anywhere, they've just been testing the expantion.
If the COV COH servers are linked, aren't you double counting?
Even if your not, figures for free trials of COV do not = actual COH players online. That is a bit too big a leap.
They equal potential COV players.
Sure, will do when I get a chance. Its just gone 6pm (UK) here, so not my usual game time.
Work sucks!!!
lol looks like a misquote there. (i must be spamming too fast)
what is the command to "see all" please.
I'd be very intrsted t get soem kind of "post your server population, name time and timezone here" kind of a thread going.
Since the COV beta is over we should get unclouded figures for server populations.
I'm sure why we keep going over this, but CoV is just another fraction being added to the game. Its not a seperate game, its just offers the option of playing a villain without having to buy CoH first. The code for CoV and CoH are identical and share the same server, the only difference is within the code it can lock/unlocked content based on what you own (just like a traditional expantion does). Potential villains customers factor just as much as hero ones do, when it comes to server population. Otherwise its like only taking Horde into account when you look at a WoW server, for example.
i6 has just gone live and screwed up the servers
, but that is the CoV code. The official site is stating all you need to do is enter your CoV key and not install anything from the cd.
Anyway, to find out how many people are online.....
1) Click on "find member".
2) In the window that pops up click "search", that will so how many are online (from the grey figure at the very bottom).
As I said i6 has screwed up the servers so I'd not count on getting an accurate figure this evening. I've given up trying to play, so off to SWG. So its probably best doing it once the problems are solved.
Potential villains customers don't count at all.
Actual COH players do.
Everyone on the planet is a "potential" Villains custromer.
Claiming that COV beta test is full is irrelevant. In fact the nerfs in COH may have even contirbuted to this by driving COH players elsewhere. That's all just hypothesis. Since there is actual verifiable evidence available, lets take a look at it.
We can draw spurious links and hypothesise theories and guesstimate figures but I would prefer a definite number of how many players actually remain in the COH servers (not very many at all by the sounds of things tonight) and the times of day and timezones these figures are taken from to help me make a better judgement.
We can then go ahead and even compare these later on when COV launches and build up a better picture over time.
Geez, its one game!!! Villain players do count and of course heros numbers are going to drop because the expantion is the new toy. The beta has proved that. All that means is the same people are subscribing (and new ones) but playing a different character. Its like getting blood from a stone. Fine, WoW only has 1/3 of the population it claims because we aren't going to factor in the alliance.
Its the exact same thing.
Those who pre-ordered CoV and were on the beta servers will be on the current CoH servers on Saturday. You're affected by the ED just as much by playing a villain as a hero. What do you think? That villains getting a different system? The ED, like with CoH was added to CoV in late beta and affected what people were playiing before. Again, its ONE GAME, ONE PIECE OF CODE AND ON THE SAME SERVERS.
No not many on tonight, it took me 30mins to get out of the portal building in PI due to the lag. Hence gave up, like many others.
sorry I didn't realise COV was on sale today.
New villains count, beta test villains do not.
I concur it is part of the same game. I thought it hadn't gone live.
While I agree that everyone who pre-ordered or has bought the game will be on the servers at the earliest possible oprotunity, NOT everybody who played the free trial will have pre-ordered or bought it. A substantial number will not. Similarly there will also be sales to people who were not in beta.
Player counts based on these figures are not in any way reliable. We have no information available to us as to the proportion of said 13.5k players who had pre-ordered this game or were existing subscribers to COH.
It strikes me that you have an accurate and reliable method of counting "actual players playing now" available to you but you are unwilling to use it because the results are currently laughable and do not support your arguments.
That's not to say I wouldn't like to see updated figures, at a later stage when you deem the servers to useable, also. I would. The more data available the more informed my opinion will become.
As for ED and how that affects Villains vs Heroes, I suspect that it nerfs Heroes and doesn't affect Villains because there aren't any Villains. It is of note that I do not believe ED is the sole reason or even core reason for server population drop. Populations had dropped long before ED was thought of. Quite the opposite I think ED has been devised as direct result of population drop and is a continuing symptom of the games demise.
The bulk of sales of City of Villains will be to previous owners of City of Heroes, in my opinion, as in any other expansion pack. Expansion packs never outsell original copies. I believe that customers annoyance with the game service that resulted in them quitting their subcriptions will in a number of cases deter them from buying the expansion also.
This isn't the first game to have an expansion pack, if server population is as stable as you suggest it has been, I would fully expect the announcement of the next expansion within a month of this release. I have no reason to believe this game is currently successful enough to warrant any further development investment past this expansion (which would have been agreed years prior even to the release of the Original).
C.O.V. is it's the last hazzah.
I'm going to give up on this conversation as its going nowhere.
However, for the 1000% time. Those in beta were active CoH players (excluding a few) and in addition there were also new players that pre-ordered and were let in. That was it, no fileplanet, no other major source and if so, please prove otherwise. Those who pre-order CoV (regardless of already owning CoH or not) will be playing Villains, as of Saturday. Those who didn't (for the whole) will be back to playing heros. Server population = #Villains + #Heros. Both count, even the villains in beta as they (for the majority) are active accounts.
The ED was only recently added to the CoV beta and has been affected just as much as CoH has. Just because you needed to be in beta to see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I'm also willing to post any figures and stated I would. What am I supposed to do? Fly over to the States and fix the server problems (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3946539&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#3946539?)
Some of you in the forum have some real reading and attitude issues.
You are making assumptions and being subjective, while at least I'm posting what I've seen first hand. Hence why this is going nowhere, chalk and cheese.
the ED doesn't affect beta because beta is over. There is no beta.
It doesn't nerf Villains because there are no Villains already using 4+ enhancements. In fact, there are no Villains at all. You cannot nerf what doesn't exist.
What effect changes had on a free test server is less than cause for upset. You got it free. Who cares?
No one has cancelled their free subscription to a free server and no one gives a hoot if they do. Neither was there a mass of players with more than 4 slots available to be nerfed on beta. Almost every paying subscriber on COH will be affected by this. After specifically asking not to be and paying cash money for people to support the game in a way they approve of.
Those that were in beta may have been pre-dominantly COH players, but there is no reason to assume they have current subscriptions, or that if they did not, they will have now re-subscribed COH or bought COV and be on the servers on Saturday. This is a fallacy.
Of the ten people who have mentioned COV beta invites to me, only 2 have active subscriptions (and 1 of those wasn't intrested in beta). On my very poor test group 80% of the beta testers will not be there on Saturday (If I add you, 73%). As you can see this data is very unreliable and although I doubt it's value, it is the best I currently have available. It does not support your theories. It would be unscientific for me to take your word for it in the face of greater evidence.
From my poor information the only "exceptional few" were those with pre-orders or active subscriptions. I would prefer the beginnings of a more serious data group.
As for being willing to post any figures, you still haven't. I'm aware it's crap. (I have been keep appraised of it via MSN). After hearing from you that they didn't beta test the server with COH running too, it hasn't come as a massive surprise. Surely the irony of trying to convince me that server population has not fallen when there are currently no people online is not lost you.
Wow...you two are arguing on 2 different services...
Baff, I think you're talking about the European Beta right?...The U.S. did their's differently...
I'm assuming Grapevine is on U.S. servers...
FYI - U.S. servers required players to be current COH subscribers to be in COV beta... I played 6+ months but didn't get invited 'cause I'm not a current subscriber...Preorders are exceptions..
For crying out loud.
It does affect villains, becuase its the same mechanics as for heros. Their stamina has changed from what it was prior to ED being introduced, just like other powers have been affected. Just because it happened late in beta and not in live doesn't mean it didn't affect the gameplay. Please read back within this thread. I stated that ED would not affect the perception of the game as come next week people will be to tied up playing with their new toy and will get used to ED through CoV. As they are leveling a new character from stratch, with the system already implemented. So when they are finished with their villain and return to being a hero (or whatever), they would have adjusted.
I played in the beta a lot and since it started. I can tell you that I only once in a blue moon came across someone that wasn't either an active CoH subscriber or someone new who had pre-ordered CoV. I also grouped a lot and with many different people. You can believe what you want, but I saw it first hand.
I wasn't aware you'd actually be interested in current population figures, given how warped they would be based on how much of a nightmare the servers are being today. However, I did just log in and despite all these problems there was 721 people on. Which quite suprised me, as I was expecting a lot less.
***EDIT****
They enabled hero creation and content on the CoV beta servers about a week ago, as in the same time i6 hit the CoH's test server. So it was tested and was nothing like it is tonight. In fact it was working perfectly fine.
Correct, I live in the UK but am one of the people who bought CoH before it was available over here. So I'm on the US service.
If that is the case, as you state then I can understand all this now. It was doing my head in. From what I've heard CoH isn't doing to well in Europe. I believe they (Cryptic) are now talking about account transfers, because of it. Localisation never seems to work, so was a bad idea from the start. I believe the only one that has succeded in that area is WoW, where EU outnumbered US server population during the period I played.
You can't really stress test hero creation/integration on an unpaid beta server because no one will use it in any significant numbers. The only reason they joined the COV beta was to preview the new stuff. If you arranged a roll a hero party, no one would show.
While ED may "affect" City of Villains, it will not nerf it. Had any of the COH nerfs implemented, been in the game from the outset, no one would be cross. Players would have evolved around the current system organically as they will in COV. This more or less applies to any of the nerfs brought into the game so far. The basic problem with them is that they are nerfs, after that it's all academic, with a load of old fools (like us) arguing over nonsense figures and their interpretations.
I'm not sure about COH's lesser success in Europe, it could be either a marketing issue, (for example Plaync is a south Korean country, not somewhere well known for it's European trade/distribution links) or equally there might be a culrural difference with regards to superhero comic books. With only 750 players a server (local primetime?) I would be itching for some server merges in the U.S. too. 750 is a playable number in primetime but it doesn't sound too healthy for off peak. I don't see any reason to believe that EU servers are losing players any faster than U.S., only that their achieved audience has been smaller. I'll see if I can't drum up some population figures for Euro servers.
Eve-online was another big European seller. The servers are based in London and support in Iceland. Distribution didn't seem to hit the U.S. at all until well after it's first year. Europe is statistically twice as big a computer game selling market as the U.S. (but not console game), with the U.K. alone spending the same net on PC games as the entire U.S. in 2004. Game Consoles have had a poor penetration rate in mainland Europe. It is of note that mainland Europe has no historical trade relations with Japan, exporter of Playstation or Korea home of NCsoft.
With the exception of monster companies like Ubisoft and EA there aren't many distribution networks that can put games on shelves all around the world. Similarly to Ncsoft, Sony Online Entertainment games tend to do better in Asia and America than they do in Europe also.
So far then numbers are unchanged from when beta was running, I look forward to you posting more results if you are feeling sympathetic enough later on. It would be nice to see them again when you feel the servers are back up to par, and also a couple of weeks and maybe a month after COV launch to see what affect that has had.
No one ever said heroes/villain integration went through any serious player testing. Only time it did was during the recent PvP test events. Especially in the first one, as the majority of people rolled heroes. I'm also not very happy that they didn't address the number one complaint with i6, that being how ED affected defenses.
Just because the nerf to villains occurred during the latter stages of beta, doesn't mean it didn't occur and that they aren't nerfed to the same level as heros. Trying to state otherwise is highly inaccurate.
Server population isn't usually around 750 and regardless its going to increase next week, so why merge anything? Why do we keep going over an over this? It has been around that figure while the villain side was being tested (on separate servers), by active subscribers (as a whole). It also only dropped to that once they let pre-orders in, which included a lot of active hero players and also only after the beta servers went 24/7. Up until that point it was still in the 1.3 - 1.7k active players (on Justice). Of course server population figures from last night weren't much different from when beta ended (the night before). People couldn't reliably play and were logging off due to server issues. What do you expect, people just to sit there for hours trying to get out of one area, waiting 10-20s between each attack and locking up only to find you've face planted when you get some activity again? I certainly didn't play under those conditions and neither did any of my friends. I was seriously surprised it hit the 700+ figure.
Can you please quit the misleading and warping of information? This conversation isn't going anywhere because you aren't taking in what is fact and spurting out simply your own highly subjective views. Leading into the same things being said over and over again!!! I'm simply posting how the beta was handled (i.e. excluding a few that creaped in, active CoH subscribers and CoV pre-order owners only) and some figures. You can argue as much as you like, but it won't change what happened or what was observed first hand.
As for EU CoH, essentially its somewhat of a failure because it was released the same time as EU WoW. WoW has been the only mmorpg that has been localised and been truly successful. Most EU gamers tend to play on US servers, if they have the option. The rest pail in comparrision to none localised games or their US counter parts.
The point he was trying to make, and that you obviously missed, is that there is a world of difference between changing how a fundamental aspect of the game works after that game has been live for many months versus the same change in a game that is still in beta test. CoH players have hundreds, and in some cases, thousands of hours invested in their characters. They have supported the game with their subscription dollars for a long time. There is no way you can compare the impact that ED and the other nerfs have had on CoH players to the impact it had on CoV beta testers. To do so is to completely missunderstand why players hate nerfs and to ignore the vastly greater investment CoH players have in the game.
I actually broke this news about CoH a while ago in this forum at the thread link below:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm/load/forums/loadforum/450/loadthread/53959/setstart/1/loadclass/143
The overwhelming majority of responses were negative, which wasn't surprising. What was surprising was the sheer number of players who came out of the woodwork who normally never post to the boards to post their dismay with the ED I6 change. Subscribers who have been subscribed since the beta and/or headstart but had perhaps 12 - 26 posts to their credit.
Even more surprising, I6 was released and the complaints by and large continued. Normally there's a period before an Issue where people complain about this change or that, but in the end find it has little impact on their play. Apparently, with ED that isn't true.
One thing I really want to see next: the official site has undergone a redesign, but strangely, they have pulled down the forums. This seems very strange, because the previous forums were a one-over-the-world design that catered to both CoH and CoV. Even if they were separating the forums, the process would be very simple and require no more than a few minor HTML changes and relinking the appropriate posting areas to their respective new links.
I will be very interested to see if there has been a forum wipe once the forums come back online. That may indicate a desire on the part of Cryptic / NCSoft to try to suppress the huge amount of negative feedback they have received on ED.
CoH is such a unique game, and when I played it had so much going for it. If they had a server that was locked into the game mechanics active with the release of I3 and guaranteed that it would never change except for content updates, I would be back in a second. But that is not going to happen.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq
Adnihilo
Beorn Judge's Edge
Somnulus
Perfect Black
----------------------
Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2
Everquest / Everquest 2
Anarchy Online
Shadowbane
Dark Age of Camelot
Star Wars Galaxies
Matrix Online
World of Warcraft
Guild Wars
City of Heroes
The only differance ED did to me was instead of 3 hits it takes 4 hits to take down an oj minion with my scrapper and I have to pay a little more attention to my end.
In the end no real big changes go figure...................