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Sorry but DDO sucks
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Druids and Monks get a lot of special abilities that are very different from the standard classes. They have said it would add at least 6 months more to the developement time to implement those two classes properly, that is not "a little more time". That is 6 months JUST to implement 2 classes. The game has been in developement for 4 years already, they have only limited money and resources to pour into these games to start with. They can add them in later and do them properly or rush them in unfinished and improperly implemented, which would you prefer. They can add them in when they have the time and money to do so.
Having the ability to rest anywhere you want takes away any challenge from the game. The only way I could see them making it work is if they put a timer on how often you can rest, say every 15 minutes while in a dungeon, if you are resting and get interrupted you cannot rest again for another 15 minutes, which essentially boils down to exactly what they are doing, except with rest shrines you are at least guaranteed to rest sucessfully. Otherwise the resting would be exactly like in NWN, which tbh was lame. "oh look I'll just spam my powerful spells to kill this group of mobs, ok they're dead now rest and repeat for next group 10' down the hall. Now which of the two is more true to the spirit of PnP?
The xp system works just fine in my experience. You get +50% xp bonus for the first time you do a mission, the second run through is no bonus no penalty, and from the 3rd run on you get a penalty (-20% per run I think). So far I have never been through a quest more than 2 or 3 times, mostly because they are fun and I wanted to complete them again, or because I was helping someone else complete them. Oh and you also get a +50% bonus for the first time you attempt a dungeon on elite difficulty as well, so that's 2 runs through at +50% xp bonus. As for re-entering a dungeon after dying, yes you recieve a -20% penalty every time you enter, to a maximum of -90% xp. If you have died that many times in a single quest then either find a new group cause they are morons, or quit trying to solo the damn dungeon. There is no accidentally re-entering a quest 5 times, but even if hypothetically this happened, the next run through you would still get full xp but would miss out on the +50% bonus as it is technically your second run through. I think you are confusing entering the dungeon 5 times and completing it 5 times, they are 2 different events. If you are grouped with someone that is on their 5th visit to the dungeon and you are on your first, you are on your first, xp is calculated for each player individually it is not based on who in the party has activated the quest.
Druids and Monks get a lot of special abilities that are very different from the standard classes. They have said it would add at least 6 months more to the developement time to implement those two classes properly, that is not "a little more time". That is 6 months JUST to implement 2 classes. The game has been in developement for 4 years already, they have only limited money and resources to pour into these games to start with. They can add them in later and do them properly or rush them in unfinished and improperly implemented, which would you prefer. They can add them in when they have the time and money to do so.
Having the ability to rest anywhere you want takes away any challenge from the game. The only way I could see them making it work is if they put a timer on how often you can rest, say every 15 minutes while in a dungeon, if you are resting and get interrupted you cannot rest again for another 15 minutes, which essentially boils down to exactly what they are doing, except with rest shrines you are at least guaranteed to rest sucessfully. Otherwise the resting would be exactly like in NWN, which tbh was lame. "oh look I'll just spam my powerful spells to kill this group of mobs, ok they're dead now rest and repeat for next group 10' down the hall. Now which of the two is more true to the spirit of PnP?
The xp system works just fine in my experience. You get +50% xp bonus for the first time you do a mission, the second run through is no bonus no penalty, and from the 3rd run on you get a penalty (-20% per run I think). So far I have never been through a quest more than 2 or 3 times, mostly because they are fun and I wanted to complete them again, or because I was helping someone else complete them. Oh and you also get a +50% bonus for the first time you attempt a dungeon on elite difficulty as well, so that's 2 runs through at +50% xp bonus. As for re-entering a dungeon after dying, yes you recieve a -20% penalty every time you enter, to a maximum of -90% xp. If you have died that many times in a single quest then either find a new group cause they are morons, or quit trying to solo the damn dungeon. There is no accidentally re-entering a quest 5 times, but even if hypothetically this happened, the next run through you would still get full xp but would miss out on the +50% bonus as it is technically your second run through. I think you are confusing entering the dungeon 5 times and completing it 5 times, they are 2 different events. If you are grouped with someone that is on their 5th visit to the dungeon and you are on your first, you are on your first, xp is calculated for each player individually it is not based on who in the party has activated the quest.
As far as Druids and Monks... You are saying that in 4 years they could not get it right? But in 6 more months they can get it right? That is just crazy. And I find that hard to believe. Sorry.
Having the ability to rest in no takes away from the game. You should still have the chance of wandering monsters and the loss of the rest state. How can that take away from the game? And with their rest areas, you can only use them once. I don't care how NWN does it. This is DDO... And in my opinion it is lame. As I said before... In EVERY PnP game I played in you could rest anywhere you wanted to. You just had to take the risk of getting disturbed by wandering monsters. And if you were in a highly traveled ara, chances were you would get disturbed.
The penalty is, or was during the stress test that I was in, 100% when you entered it the 5th time. You got no exp for completing the quest. Why are they so worried about this anyways? Oh, I forgot, they only have 10 levels with 4 mini levels in between, making a max of 40 levels. Not too many considering things.
My prediction for DDO... The same fate as AC2.
And yes I will play it, I have per-ordered it. I will try it and see how it is at launch, then make a decision on wether I will stay with it or not.
Okay...
So let's say my nephew is a 8 year old brat and he fail every quest 5+ times before even succeeding once... (yes, some players are like that)
He already have a VERY hard time...now you are telling me he is not even able to level up, no matter if he succeed or fail? Is it what you guys are telling me? And what about DC/Lag? I just want to make sure I understand properly. This is a "No forgiving" system?
Myself I am hardcore, but I am not afraid to stand for the casuals...and I am clearly sticking to the XP/mob mentality. This is pure betrayal.
PS: 10 + 40 = 50, however I am not sure if the 4 mini levels for every level are there, so maybe 46...and since you start level 1 and not a commoner, -1 again, so 45...or maybe 49. Anyway...not 40.
PPS: The 50% extra bonus and declining every time after make sense, as long as it apply only success...if you fail you definitely shouldn't lose it, you already are going to have to run the mish another time (that is like a 100% penalty) for been unefficient...such a system slow down some players, but I would most likely storm through it at an insane speed, beneficting from every bonus while casuals doesn't...which is clearly favourising hardcores...I am hardcores...I doesn't need a game that favourised me, I want a game that make casuals play and keep me busy...I am favourised and done with the game faster with tons of unhappy casuals around? Not good, not good at all.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Just to make it clear as I see it, there are a total of 40 levels. Not 10 levels with 4 between each level, 10 major levels, which are broken down to 4 mini levels. But still only 40 total levels. So you start out at level 1, you advance 3 times, and the next advance is level 2.
Dodging fire balls and arrows? Turbine did that back in 1999, it's called Asheron's Call (Not 2, #1)
In AC you can litterly dodge arrows, fire balls etc. Heck, you can move if you're firing off fire balls, archers have to stay still yet their rate of fire is much higher...
So DDO is not exactly original, same company, yet the idea was used a long time ago in their first game.
I can see a druid being difficult to implement with its shape changing ability, sure, but a monk? A monk is really not too much different than a rogue or a fighter. "OH NO he has evasion" so what? rogues do too. "OH NO the monk... punches enemies?" So what? A fighter uses a sword. I think with the monk they just got lazy. Seriously, the monk doesnt have anything fantastic vs a fighter with the right feats chosen or a rogue
Ok apparently some people still don't understand how the xp works in the game so I will try and give a better example.
A party of level 1 players enters a cr1.0 dungeon I'm going to ignore any other bonuses for the quest here as I'm trying to give a specific example. Let's say the first time they ENTER (not complete just enter) the dungeon they are getting full xp with no penalties, as long as they don't leave the dungeon in any way. Leaving the dungeon constitutes either leaving from the entrance or releasing to the tavern after you die. If you leave the instance in any of these two ways the next time you re-enter the same active instance you receive a -20% penalty to xp. Every time you do this it adds an additional -20% to the penalty up to a max of -90% (as of last patch). Now, at any time during this quest if the party decides that the penalty is getting too high they can choose to abandon the quest, everyone leaves and you wait 5 minutes. The instance then resets and you start from scratch the ALL XP PENALTIES ARE GONE. This means you go back to getting 100% of the xp for that attempt at the quest.
Now, the previous example was not taking into account any other bonuses or penalties that may come into play, such as the +50% for 1st time COMPLETING the quest, or the +50% for the first time ATTEMPTING elite difficulty. There is also a bonus based on whether you are higher or lower level than the quest (+20% for every level you are under the quest and -20% for being 1 level over and I think -5% for every other level over). On top of this you get all the other bonuses.
The diminishing returns on xp and loot are a mechanism to stop gold farmers, period. You do not NEED to do a quest 5+ times or even more than a couple, and many are fun enough to do multiple times.
As for the reasons why Monks would be so difficult to implement. Well for one they get a lot of damage reduction and other odd-ball special abilities that would be difficult to transfer over to DDO, and for two they get many grappling moves, which turbine has said they would want to include if they did put Monks in.
When building a game it goes through several stages of developement. First is usually the concept stage where they decide what they want to do with the game, basic game systems are designed and concept art is created. Next is usually when they program the game engine or modify an existing one to fit their needs, depending on resources available. The second stage can easily take up 2 years of developement time. Art and models can also be created during this time. 3rd stage is usually alpha testing where the game engine is up and running but there are many features missing and virtually no content. During the alpha stage is where you start to see content introduced and many features added that should end up in the final game. By the first beta stage there is usually about 25-45% of the content of the game in in some form and more is added throughout the later stages. By the final stages of beta approximately 95% of the final content should be in and all gamebreaking bugs worked out. Additional beta time and Q/A goes on until the publisher approves the game for release. A gold master is pressed and sent for production and 2-3 weeks later is on store shelves.
MMO's are by far one of the most work intensive types of games to make. Most developers always run out of time when creating them because they try to include too much and as a result the whole game suffers. Turbine's decision to only release the game with the first 10 levels was the smartest decision they could have made. Better to focus on getting as much of the low end in to keep your players busy and do it well than to spread the content too thin or implement time sinks and filler content that the players will get bored with quickly.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
There are some bad reviews for the beta. I'm hoping Turbine is listening.
-W.
Just another reason why this game is a failure. I don't see this as a smart decision at all. I see it as a company releasing an unfinished game. Combine this with a world that is nothing but instances, and basically it proves that Turbine is either lazy or lacks talent. Probably both.
http://aion.24-hrgaming.net
Thanks Minsc for clarifying this.
Only 10 levels CAN still be fun. However, it will put HEAVY stress on the expensions to be even better than the original product (kinda like the BGs were). Not only will they need to add the other 10 levels, they will need to implement Monks, Druids and many prestige class...possibly many varying class, the Marshall and the Scout come to mind, especially for a MMO who enforce grouping. If Turbines think they can relax at release, they are dead wrong, maintenaing the servers and bringing the missing content at a decent pace (not a WoW pace, a SoE pace without the bugs)...and what about the "critical missing content from Eberron"? Me I am no fan of Eberron, but my friends are complaining at all the missing vital aspects of Eberron.
Players are going to expect EPIC levels by the second expension...which is something they want at most 1 year after release. TSR is even more expension-oriented than SoE...2 expensions a year, each been as big as the initial release, sound like a minimum to a TSR fan...Turbines certainly doesn't lack work.
I still doesn't like to be restricted to my server, in an all-instanced I should be able to group with any of my friend, regardless of the server, but that can be implemented at a later point.
PS: Dodging anything with my reflex annoys me to the highest point, we are talking of D&D...not some action game. Oh well, too bad for me I guess.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Just to clarify, there are 10 levels with 4 incrimental enhancement levels in between each, for a total of 40 levels. It goes like this, Level 1 - Rank 1, Level 1 - Rank 2, Level 1 - Rank 3, Level 1 - Rank 4, Level 2, etc.
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Played: Age of Conan, DDO, Saga of Ryzom, SWG, DaOC, MxO, EQ2, and so on...
Wish List: Jumpgate Evolution, Star Wars: TOR, Star Trek
Just another reason why this game is a failure. I don't see this as a smart decision at all. I see it as a company releasing an unfinished game. Combine this with a world that is nothing but instances, and basically it proves that Turbine is either lazy or lacks talent. Probably both.
You really don't understand what is involved in making a game like this do you? There is nothing lazy about what they are doing, but as you are claiming they are then I assume you are in the industry developing your own MMO right, tell me which one it is so I can judge your work
. They have a bunch of quests that are near completion or about half way done but they are holding them back for release so they can focus on bug-testing and balancing. Once the game is out and stable they will have much more time to dedicate to polishing off those quests and creating new ones. It is ALWAYS easier to create content for a MMO after release than before, but if they don't squash major bugs now it will cripple new content developement for months. WoW was severely plagued by this on release and only after over 1 year are all the classes getting close to being balanced.
Since when has any MMORPG ever been finished when it has released, they all start out missing things. MMO's by thier nature evolve over time, I usually don't consider a MMO in a finished state until after 1 year of being live.
You are so full of it. Did you ever PLAY wow?
WoW has talents and skills that you activate. They don't just work on their own. Rogues has tons of skills they have to activate and in a specific order and position, mage/priest/casters all have to activate each spell. The thing is WoW makes something like the constant normal swing attack AUTOMATIC so you can focus on the skills you need to activate. There is not a single class that does not have skills and talents they have to activate repeatedly in a fight.
Now load D&Do and play and not only do you do that you have to run around mashing buttons like a PS2 game just to swing but you have to activate spells/skills also.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
[quote]Originally posted by Minsc
.[/b][/quote]
You really don't understand what is involved in making a game like this do you? There is nothing lazy about what they are doing, but as you are claiming they are then I assume you are in the industry developing your own MMO right, tell me which one it is so I can judge your work
First, DDO is not an MMO.
But yes, I really don't know that much involved in trying to make a MMORPG. At least I admit it, instead of figuritively spraying perfume on cow dung and trying to peddle it off as gold bars. The people who are working on DDO don't have a clue, either. So, tell me, what's your point?
By the way, I do have game development experience. I was on the design and development team for EA Sports Tiger Woods PGA Tour for the PC for their 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005 versions. While these games are not MMORPGs, they do offer multiplayer online play (EASO). Oh, and IGN and Gamespot (for multiple years) recognized the games as PC Sports Game of the Year.
So, yes, I do know what goes into game development . . including alpha and beta testing over 40+ builds. I also directly know how much the producers of the game worked WITH the community in order to best give them what they wanted. Some things the community asked for were not realistic, but everything was taken into consideration . . and you'd be surpised by how much went into the game based on community representation.
http://aion.24-hrgaming.net
From your description it sounds like a cool game.
I hope theres gonna be a public stress test so I can give it a try.
There have been two stress tests so far, I think.
and they didnt even gave beta testing for free.
I'm not sure what you mean, Krazen.
I played in stress and beta and I love this game. I sit here and laugh at the people who say the combat sucks. It actually makes you get involved in what you're doing. You actually have to know how to block. I, as a rogue, was able to solo an entire long dungeon once I got the tumbling and blocking parts down. For those who don't enjoy this game go play a POS game like WoW. I love DDO and after playing it I will NEVER go back to a game like WoW. Those who don't like DDO are those who love WoW because you can sit there all day and whack on mobs and gain levels by camping. Can't do that here because the only way to gain xp is to quest. This discourages the powergamers and the people who form the horrible community of WoW from playing DDO, which, in my opinion, is a VERY GOOD thing.
You are so full of it. Did you ever PLAY wow?
WoW has talents and skills that you activate. They don't just work on their own. Rogues has tons of skills they have to activate and in a specific order and position, mage/priest/casters all have to activate each spell. The thing is WoW makes something like the constant normal swing attack AUTOMATIC so you can focus on the skills you need to activate. There is not a single class that does not have skills and talents they have to activate repeatedly in a fight.
Now load D&Do and play and not only do you do that you have to run around mashing buttons like a PS2 game just to swing but you have to activate spells/skills also.
LOL, well obviously you really didn't give it a try then.
It is very easy to set up your attacks(specials) in this game, you hold the shift
key which holds up your shield to block the incoming attack. When the enemy attacks
you block and then while still holding shift you can click your special to activate for example
like Cleave, or Smite Evil if your paladin. It will activate while your holding your shield up.
It's really easy and you act like it takes a rocket scientist to be able to do it. You do not have to be
double jointed and have super fast reflexes either. Wizards have it easy as well, when something starts to chase you get on the high ground, like a crate or box. And proceed to cast your spells on the meager enemies. Rouges/Rangers have it the easiest in this game, being able to sneak around, disarm traps, pick
locks.
If you obviously cannot grasp the concept of the combat in this game well you better stick to turn based
strategy games because your brain just does not react fast enough for a game like this.
Thank You...
I just don't get it, I've always seen mmo's as an evolving thing. But now we are back to zoning, I thought all new mmo's would be seemless. Now im sure when they started the game they werent behind the times, but such rigid inflexibility never bodes well for a game. look at wow, technically its a lot older then this game.
It's like theyve refused to learn anything from any mmo out there. Theres a reason you can kill mobs for exp. It's because first of all it makes sense, and second, no dev could ever churn out quests fast enough for the population. I feel stupid even point this out... This was learned from the very first mmo's.
So you say its to preserve a D&D experience? How is repeating the same quests over and over (which you will have to do, there is no way theres enough content) pen and paper dnd limited itself to a group sitting around a table. tell me why you couldn't pass a group of adventurers in your travels? An mmorpg should expand on pnp because its more capible.
The only solution I could imagine would be the anarchy online model, in which quests are dynamically created based on sliders you manipulate, your given a key and in you go.
I have not played the beta but it seems they didn't do this.
Don't even get me started on combat, its as far from dnd as you could get. its like if pnp dnd required you to fight other people acting as monsters with nerf swords to see if you had the dexterity to win. dnd is stat based and you get to think about what you do.
From what im hearing you have to play your mouse and keyboard like an orchestra to do anything. How is that the style of dnd?
bottom line: this game isn't a progressive mmorpg, and its not prgressive dnd. It's as if there was magically a game before everquest and rather then release when they couldn't compete they waited till 2006.
They have learned nothing.
Seamless worlds are all well and good for the whole immersion factor, but you get major performance issues when large groups of players get together i.e. lagrimmar. Also with these seemless worlds you get the great aspect of having dumb static mobs standing around waiting to be killed with no purpose to it whatsover except to be a little tick towards some players next level. Not exactly the epitomy of good content design right there.
[quote]Originally posted by Kelsonmac
.[/b][/quote]
[b][quote]Originally posted by Minsc
You really don't understand what is involved in making a game like this do you? There is nothing lazy about what they are doing, but as you are claiming they are then I assume you are in the industry developing your own MMO right, tell me which one it is so I can judge your work
First, DDO is not an MMO.
But yes, I really don't know that much involved in trying to make a MMORPG. At least I admit it, instead of figuritively spraying perfume on cow dung and trying to peddle it off as gold bars. The people who are working on DDO don't have a clue, either. So, tell me, what's your point?
By the way, I do have game development experience. I was on the design and development team for EA Sports Tiger Woods PGA Tour for the PC for their 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005 versions. While these games are not MMORPGs, they do offer multiplayer online play (EASO). Oh, and IGN and Gamespot (for multiple years) recognized the games as PC Sports Game of the Year.
So, yes, I do know what goes into game development . . including alpha and beta testing over 40+ builds. I also directly know how much the producers of the game worked WITH the community in order to best give them what they wanted. Some things the community asked for were not realistic, but everything was taken into consideration . . and you'd be surpised by how much went into the game based on community representation.
[/b][/quote]
And for how many of those games did you create an all new game-engine to run off of, or all new network code or completely redo all art assets? Your also talking about an average of what 4-8 players MAX in a game if that? Not to mention EA is a pillar of innovation when it comes to all thier sports games
