Greed

Bloodastral · November 2005

I like the sound of this game, unfortunately the reason why I won't play TC is the preorder advantages. I prefer a game without bias, everyone starting at the same step. Yet TC wants your money and if you pay now not only do you get an artifact that advances as you level but your character will roll over from beta. Guess I prefer a game free of marketing ploys and if money can buy this sort of headstart then the furture of your characters could depend on $.

shae · November 2005

Quite honestly, you'll have a hard time finding any game now that doesn't have some sort of beta marketing ploy or pre-release/pre-order hype call.

It's quiet obvious that at some point mmo developers figured out that people love being in beta, they also know that pre-orders mean cash now and good way to count how well the game is going to do. So in true business fashion we're starting to see marketing like what you mentioned.

Personally, I wont pre-order mmo's anymore, for me it's a waste of money and I refuse to pay to beta. When I beta test a game I know I'm there to help, de-bugg and de-fuse, I'm not there to always have a great time but there to help the dev team make sure the game is great for people that are going to pay when the time comes. Paying a company so that I can put that kind of time in to help them... seems a little off to me but again, thats just me.

All that being said, it's a persons choice to do it and company's choice to offer it, I certainly hope it works out for them but it would have been nice to see them go a different route.

Jorev · November 2005

Originally posted by Bloodastral
I like the sound of this game, unfortunately the reason why I won't play TC is the preorder advantages. I prefer a game without bias, everyone starting at the same step. Yet TC wants your money and if you pay now not only do you get an artifact that advances as you level but your character will roll over from beta. Guess I prefer a game free of marketing ploys and if money can buy this sort of headstart then the future of your characters could depend on $.

I will have to pass on The Chronicle as well if what you say is true. I also think it's extremely important for all players to start on the same fair level playing field.

It's bad enough that beta testers get a head start to learn game mechanics and beneficial bugs prior to retail, but giving them an artifact and pre-leveled characters at retail launch is bullshit.

You don't need to reward preorders, deluxe editions and beta testers with in-game advantages. That just defeats the point in participating in a MMOG for anyone else.

CaesarsGhost · November 2005

I understand it might sound unfair. But hear this out:

The game is completely Player Oriented. If we launched and there was no players already established in the game, there would be no player cities or shops. There would be a very dead, empty, gameworld. With very few places for people to get quests or go and buy gear and the like.

But most importantly, the way the game is designed it's your personal skill that will matter. If you're that much better then that person, you'll be able to defeat them regardless of those "bonuses" given to them. That, and once they're dead they loose their advantage, due to permadeath.

neschria · November 2005

So, if it is so wrong for people to spend the $20 they would have spent on the first month anyway so that they get to play a little sooner, what's the point in ANYONE starting to play any game that they don't get in on in the first few days of release? Aren't you then perpetually behind, and not just behind a small handful of players, but, in fact, everyone else who started before you?

As far as it being "greed", few companies are running games out of charity and generosity.

vainz · December 2005

Having stronger characters at the bigging of the game would help out for newbies with such things as "what do i do first" or "Can some one help me kill this mob" having higher lvled characters is a good thing and as CG sead if theres a Main character and are killed by a lower lvl well then Permadeath kicks in and well having a high character killed permanently than you dont have to worrie about to many high lvl's Lasting long

boeskyle · December 2005

First of all, Rapid Reality has a refund policy for pre-orders. It may end or have some limits (pre-order windows) but speaks positively about their business ethics.

I don't have a problem with the pre-order item as it will only be one item per subscriber. Hopefully it is not expanded to one item per character. That item may be lootable.

My big issue is with that huge advantage some players will strive to seek. Rather than focus on the purpose of the beta, they will "race" the toons in their character slots to high levels of skill sets.

Originally posted by CaesarsGhost
I understand it might sound unfair. But hear this out:

The game is completely Player Oriented. If we launched and there was no players already established in the game, there would be no player cities or shops. There would be a very dead, empty, gameworld. With very few places for people to get quests or go and buy gear and the like.

But most importantly, the way the game is designed it's your personal skill that will matter. If you're that much better then that person, you'll be able to defeat them regardless of those "bonuses" given to them. That, and once they're dead they loose their advantage, due to permadeath.

In a player oriented game there needs to be a spectrum of levels or that low skill-set level character will be intimidated by a bunch of level 70 skill-set characters. Perhaps killed. Characters also need that spectrum of "low", "medium", "high", and "elite" levels for that immersive feel - would a level 70 character care as much about a new character as a level 30 one?

Jorev · December 2005

Originally posted by CaesarsGhost

I understand it might sound unfair. But hear this out:
The game is completely Player Oriented. If we launched and there was no players already established in the game, there would be no player cities or shops. There would be a very dead, empty, gameworld. With very few places for people to get quests or go and buy gear and the like.
But most importantly, the way the game is designed it's your personal skill that will matter. If you're that much better then that person, you'll be able to defeat them regardless of those "bonuses" given to them. That, and once they're dead they loose their advantage, due to permadeath.

As an achiever mostly, I want to start a new release on the same footing as everyone else. Obviously if I start a MMOG after launch, I would expect to have to catch up.

Paying extra or early for an in-game advantage is not something I tolerate from developers. The second hand market reselling of items/coin earned thru expended effort in-game is something we all have to accept, because it can't be stopped, but I won't participate in a MMOG where advantages are offered directly by the developers.

I expect most MMOG's to be player driven economies, at least the ones I enjoy and play, so The Chronicle would be no different than EQ1 or WoW was when first launched. I like starting in a virtual world where it is more difficult at first, because there are no high level crafters or high quality dropped items to trade for or be given.

Allowing pre leveled characters to exist when the game launches retail is the suck. No thanks.

Scaris · December 2005

Originally posted by CaesarsGhost
I understand it might sound unfair. But hear this out:The game is completely Player Oriented. If we launched and there was no players already established in the game, there would be no player cities or shops. There would be a very dead, empty, gameworld. With very few places for people to get quests or go and buy gear and the like.But most importantly, the way the game is designed it's your personal skill that will matter. If you're that much better then that person, you'll be able to defeat them regardless of those "bonuses" given to them. That, and once they're dead they loose their advantage, due to permadeath.

Then you find another way to choose a select few to be the pioneers other then those that have their wallet our first. Like perhaps a similar method to TRUE beta testing applicantions, so they are chosen based on something other then how eager they are to pay.

bodkop · December 2005

Originally posted by Fadeus

Then you find another way to choose a select few to be the pioneers other then those that have their wallet our first. Like perhaps a similar method to TRUE beta testing applicantions, so they are chosen based on something other then how eager they are to pay.

Theres a contest called "Scavanger Hunt" on mmocenter site, which i think does select beta testers in a better way (Only 50 accounts tho). The logic behind offering preoders those benefits to assure dedicated testes, is still a mircale to me. Dedicated players (tester) would pay also without those specials. Customers those only pay because they see those specials, im not sure you really want for beta testing. Personally i would say its even counterprodutive for the selection process, atleast for the quoted goal.

zerryon · December 2005

First of all, I don't see what all the fuss is about. I keep seeing "paying extra" when as far as I can see, the $20 is for the first month of service which you would have to pay anyway so preorders are just paying earlier. Also, I'm not sure what games you all play, but every game I have played has allowed beta people to keep their characters and why shouldn't they. They paid the money to get early access so why not let them keep their characters which can be used as teachers and trainers to the new people that join later. Then there is also the fact that this game is based on skill, not who has the highest level. I could be an all powerful godly mage but still be shot in the head and killed by a low level archer. And its not like it's a super exclusive thing to preorder the game so nobody is cheating you out of anything. I think $20 is nothing when you look at what you get in return.

RemyVorender · December 2005

Originally posted by zerryon

First of all, I don't see what all the fuss is about. I keep seeing "paying extra" when as far as I can see, the $20 is for the first month of service which you would have to pay anyway so preorders are just paying earlier. Also, I'm not sure what games you all play, but every game I have played has allowed beta people to keep their characters and why shouldn't they. They paid the money to get early access so why not let them keep their characters which can be used as teachers and trainers to the new people that join later. Then there is also the fact that this game is based on skill, not who has the highest level. I could be an all powerful godly mage but still be shot in the head and killed by a low level archer. And its not like it's a super exclusive thing to preorder the game so nobody is cheating you out of anything. I think $20 is nothing when you look at what you get in return.

Very well said. Now if it were $60 instead of $20 for pre-order perks, well....ya you see where I'm going with that.

People just aren't getting the fact that this game NEEDS people in it before the game is officially released. If there weren't, you would see an almost empty world with 2000 people standing around looking at each other saying, "ummm, now what."

A 100% player based economy requires this kind of move. Why do you think DnL is doing it? Yup, same reason. Established players need to be there when the masses login for the first time.

Jorev · December 2005

So most people should wait a few months or even a year or so before purchasing the game. Following the defense of advantaged established players, the longer other people hold off on playing The Chronicle, the better the experience will be for them.

Why do I suspect supporters of this special treatment will now disagree with me?

According to some, the game won't be fun for most customers unless there is an established set of players who have already excelled in their adventuring prowess, gained knowledge about the game world and game mechanics, and advanced their crafting skills in order to offer goods and services, which btw, they will profit from immensely by possessing early monopolies.

Whoa! Yeah that sounds like more fun to me, an achiever who enjoys crafting, being at a disadvantage from the start. /boggle

Pray tell, how will the pioneers advance in a world that NEEDS established characters in it to function properly? Will they be magically given developed skills and knowledge? Perhaps they are special and can play a 100% player based economy without the aid of others like most of us dummies. /sarcasm off

Jorev · December 2005

Originally posted by zerryon

First of all, I don't see what all the fuss is about. I keep seeing "paying extra" when as far as I can see, the $20 is for the first month of service which you would have to pay anyway so preorders are just paying earlier. Also, I'm not sure what games you all play, but every game I have played has allowed beta people to keep their characters and why shouldn't they. They paid the money to get early access so why not let them keep their characters which can be used as teachers and trainers to the new people that join later. Then there is also the fact that this game is based on skill, not who has the highest level. I could be an all powerful godly mage but still be shot in the head and killed by a low level archer. And its not like it's a super exclusive thing to preorder the game so nobody is cheating you out of anything. I think $20 is nothing when you look at what you get in return.

Hmm, well I don't know what games you played that allow established characters at retail launch, but two of the biggest games in the MMOG genre, EQ1 and WoW, did not.

Pirates of the Burning Sea will not allow such an advantage either.

CaesarsGhost · December 2005

I have 1 final say in this matter:

I've presented the evidence why this will not offer as big of an advantage to anybody as you would believe.
I have not given preferential treatment to anybody. They've earned it threw the same method, which by the way is STILL fully available, that we offered at launch of our PreOrder Program. At this time, nobody is ahead of anybody else.
Reasons have been given why this would be a good thing.
And most importantly, our players have spoken and wish to have this. And we listen to our players.

I can see your arguement being that we only listen to our PreOrderers: at this time they are our Players, if you were 1 of them we'd listen to you all the same. And when our games go Online: our Subscribers will be our Players, and we will listen to them.

I'm sorry you feel you'd be at a loss, but I feel that if we went back on our word to roll over to Live, you'd argue that we didn't keep our promise to do as such originally.

darkman · December 2005

Originally posted by Fadeus

Then you find another way to choose a select few to be the pioneers other then those that have their wallet our first. Like perhaps a similar method to TRUE beta testing applicantions, so they are chosen based on something other then how eager they are to pay.

You make it sound like a Pre-Order costs $1000 or something, it's $20 just to clarify. Rapid Reality is not "greedy" like the topic title is trying to imply. I don't have the specific numbers, but I can probably guess that we have maybe 1500 or less pre-orders, multiply that by 20 and you have $30,000. Considering each game is supposed to cost approximately $1-$2 million (ogaming article if you were wondering where I got that number), that's really not a huge amount of money they are raking in. They are doing this in my opinion for a few reasons:

A. If you're willing to pre-order for a game that isn't even out yet, then chances are you are going to be a very loyal person in testing the game out as well as developing the world as we progress.

B. Gives them at least some money to help offset initial costs (all though in this case the money is not really a terribly significant amount)

C. It angers a lot of people to see companies do traditional betas where a small core group of players are selected for closed beta and they will either never see the wolrd till release or wait months for a 2 week open beta. This gives the chance for anyone to see the game ahead of time (as well as test it out too).

Like CG said, this game is based on skill, so you won't he at a huge disadvantage going into the live servers. Not to mention CG mentioned on the mmocenter forums in another topic that RR hasn't even decided whether they will roll pre-order's closed beta characters onto live or our open beta characters on to live, so if they roll over open beta characters, that's like 1 or 2 weeks of advantage for us, that's not a big advantage. I can understand why you'd be a skeptic and not want to pre-order, with all of the promises many MMORPG companies have made only to break them, it's perfectly natural. However just because you don't have faith in a company doesn't mean you have to rag on their principles.

zerryon · December 2005

Why is everybody afriad of starting playing the game on release with people already advanced in skills? Do you all assume that they are all going to be evil and have some kind of corrupt economy that is unfair to new people, or perhaps the pre-orders are going to get a huge army together to kill all the new players when they get in?
Personally, I plan on pre-ordering and then putting together a group of players to form a school for magic and other arts to help new people that aren't in beta. Would people like me really be so bad to have in game on release? Not everybody is out to make the game horrible for new people which seems to be what people are afraid of.

RemyVorender · December 2005

Originally posted by Jorev

Hmm, well I don't know what games you played that allow established characters at retail launch, but two of the biggest games in the MMOG genre, EQ1 and WoW, did not.

Pirates of the Burning Sea will not allow such an advantage either.

EQ1 and WoW were not 100% player economy driven were they. Try doing some research on the type of game TC is. It's not like any other MMO on the market.

$20 bucks now and get into beta and set up things for the new players when it officially launches if that's your taste, or pay $30 and don't get the monthly fee discount, have the world set up or anything else they are offering if you like later.

Don't make it sound like this is some big secret either, and you are walking into this after the fact. Rapid Reality has made this pre-order info public for months. Everyone has the same opportunity to throw down a 20 dollar bill and get the same benefits, and will have for some time to come.

Bloodastral · December 2005

Not everyone does have the same benefits. The earlier you preorder the more powerful your free artifact will be. If you want to argue that all this is for the benefit of the player economy then great, let secondary characters roll over to the live game. In a permadeath world the advantages to starting a main at a higher level are huge nomatter how twitch/skill based combat is. A level 30 main is gonna whoop a lvl 1 main anyday of the week, colour it how you like. TC's ethos is give us your money now and the sooner the better for you. I'm not saying they are hiding this fact but for the type of game they are proposing it's the wrong tactics. They say they are listening to what their players want, i'd laugh at the post that stated I want a higher level character at the start with a powerful magic item. It's funny but I read these posts arguing why this is a good idea and all I can think is, why are some players so scared of starting on level footing when the game goes live.

Jorev · December 2005

Originally posted by CaesarsGhost

I have 1 final say in this matter:
I've presented the evidence why this will not offer as big of an advantage to anybody as you would believe.
I have not given preferential treatment to anybody. They've earned it threw the same method, which by the way is STILL fully available, that we offered at launch of our PreOrder Program. At this time, nobody is ahead of anybody else.
Reasons have been given why this would be a good thing.
And most importantly, our players have spoken and wish to have this. And we listen to our players.
I can see your arguement being that we only listen to our PreOrderers: at this time they are our Players, if you were 1 of them we'd listen to you all the same. And when our games go Online: our Subscribers will be our Players, and we will listen to them.
I'm sorry you feel you'd be at a loss, but I feel that if we went back on our word to roll over to Live, you'd argue that we didn't keep our promise to do as such originally.

You have not offered any evidence, only your opinion, which is just as valid as mine. Giving people an advantage over others because they are willing to pay money months in advance is being preferential.

You say you are only interested in what your preorder customers have to say, well that's a model for success. NOT. Of course they want their established characters to roll over to live retail. DuH.

You say you will listen to your retail subscribers opinions once they give you some money. Ok I'll bite. Will you delete preorder characters if the new majority of players including retail subscribers ask for it?

CaesarsGhost · December 2005

Originally posted by Jorev
Will you delete preorder characters if the new majority of players including retail subscribers ask for it?

We would investigate a new option for rolling over characters if you managed to bring in a new Majority Vote. Such as a wipe prior to Open Beta, and then only Open Beta Characters who PreOrdered would roll into the Live version of the game. This would be more fair, as anybody who planned on continueing to play the game would still have access to the PreOrder at that time, and would have the capability of rolling into Live.

However, as I said before, you must turn the majority vote for an option like that. And we would still roll over characters.

zerryon · December 2005

I'm still trying to figure out why this is so unfair. I mean whether you buy the pre-order or wait til release, you still are going to have to pay the $20 so why not pay now and get in early. Since you are paying for it, it would make sense to be able to keep the character. It's not super hard to preorder, just go to the site and click the link. If they were going around and selecting a chosen few to get in and keep their characters then I could see that as being unfair. From what I have read, the pre-order benefits are to get people interested and help test out the game's systems. People keep saying they are doing this out of greed and yet I have not seen how they are getting more out of it than we are. Have any of you actually read the pre-order information on the site?

RemyVorender · December 2005

Originally posted by zerryon

I'm still trying to figure out why this is so unfair.

Because people will bitch just to hear themselves do so, heheh.

But seriously. Even if they did a toon wipe before the game went live I wouldn't care. I pre-ordered because I'm supporting a game I think has a real chance to suceed and want to see it do just that. I've been playing MMOs for way too long and desperately need a new style of MMO to shake things up. I'll help however I can. The rollover toon would just be gravy, don't care either way.

Dodoo · December 2005

Originally posted by Jorev
Giving people an advantage over others because they are willing to pay money months in advance is being preferential.

OMG! You're right!

Some people gave them money without seeing the final product and they are going to benefit from it!

It's so unfair for those of us who will pay only when it's out...

In fact, I think that preordering a MMORPG should not be allowed.

I'M CALLING THE FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION RIGHT NOW!

Jorev · December 2005

Originally posted by zerryon

I'm still trying to figure out why this is so unfair. I mean whether you buy the pre-order or wait til release, you still are going to have to pay the $20 so why not pay now and get in early. Since you are paying for it, it would make sense to be able to keep the character. It's not super hard to preorder, just go to the site and click the link. If they were going around and selecting a chosen few to get in and keep their characters then I could see that as being unfair. From what I have read, the pre-order benefits are to get people interested and help test out the game's systems. People keep saying they are doing this out of greed and yet I have not seen how they are getting more out of it than we are. Have any of you actually read the pre-order information on the site?

Because many people don't want to preorder. The gaming industry has a horrible reputation for lying about their product and shipping unfinished games. Even WoW was shipped with content listed on the gamebox which was not delivered in the initial release. "Mourning" is the best example as to why no one should preorder a MMOG.

If the gaming companies would form an umbrella group to police their industry and insist on truth in advertising, it would go a long ways to legitimize preorders. But preorders should never offer an in-game advantage over retail. That destroys a core concept of players competing in the same virtual world on equal footing, especially in a PvP environment.

Jorev · December 2005

Originally posted by CaesarsGhost

Originally posted by Jorev
Will you delete preorder characters if the new majority of players including retail subscribers ask for it?

We would investigate a new option for rolling over characters if you managed to bring in a new Majority Vote. Such as a wipe prior to Open Beta, and then only Open Beta Characters who PreOrdered would roll into the Live version of the game. This would be more fair, as anybody who planned on continueing to play the game would still have access to the PreOrder at that time, and would have the capability of rolling into Live.

However, as I said before, you must turn the majority vote for an option like that. And we would still roll over characters.

So the answer is no. You won't be listening to your players as you have suggested if a new majority including retail customers wants ALL pre-retail characters wiped.

As I said previously, it is an unfair advantage since there are legitimate reasons for not preordering.

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