In MMO's everyone will never be on an equal playing field. There will always be people that buy money off ebay and have time to play non-stop. Those that have more money will always have an advantage. Rolling over characters isn't that big of a deal. It just rewards those that have faith and helped to test. They are giving several months to preorder so it isn't like there won't be time to accumulate money for the preorder.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open. Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
Originally posted by Jorev So the answer is no. You won't be listening to your players as you have suggested if a new majority including retail customers wants ALL pre-retail characters wiped.
If you managed to rally every last person, then yes. Good luck, cause it only takes one person for us to say "Well, we don't want to go back on what we promised."
Originally posted by Jorev As I said previously, it is an unfair advantage since there are legitimate reasons for not preordering.
Yes. Your Fallacy for not preordering was quite noted.
With the option of rollover from only the Open Beta, you could consider Open Beta the retail version. Free for however many weeks of play we make it. It's not closed to anybody, whether they are preorderers or not, which would mean all players have 100% ability to continue playing at the subscription price. Even you cannot argue that to be unfair, as it would be going back against what you said previously.
In fact, Open Beta is a luxury that is not required at all. It is a luxury in order to advertise the game to potential customers who feel as you do, that you should not PreOrder. However, any player wishing to continue playing will, whether they preorder or not, pay the subscription cost. Anybody in that group will become a member of our community and have a say.
I'd like to take this last paragraph to note that nothing has changed at this time. We listen to our gamers, very much so in fact. Game systems change according to what they've said they'd like. The methods used have changed according to how they'd like it. We listen to the opinions of potential customers as well. I've given you a way to get those promised things repealed, if you'd like to put forth the effort. It is not I, or other employee's at Rapid Reality you must convince now: it is the Gamers themselves.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title. "When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Are you unfamiliar with the fiasco surrounding the preorder of "Mourning"? Are you in denial that many MMOG's are shipped listing content that is not included in the initial release?
Perhaps you would like to show evidence that MMOCenter is incapable of doing the same. I am merely suggesting the possibility given the history of your industry, and that is sufficient legitimacy for not preordering any MMOG.
Previously in this thread, for everyone to read, you said only beta testers who preordered can rollover their characters to retail. Are you now saying that all beta testers can do so? If that is the case, then yes, open beta would be considered the start of retail.
You also said previously in this thread, for all to read, that you only listen to your customers, which currently are preorder customers. You now say you listen to potential customers as well. Well which is it? Your discrepancies to go with the prevailing wind, do not inspire confidence.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
I can see I'm getting nowhere explaining to you. So this is my last post about the topic:
"Only listen to our preorderers" was in reference to what you would think. Read the sentance again.
Originally posted by CaesarsGhost I can see your arguement being that we only listen to our PreOrderers: at this time they are our Players, if you were 1 of them we'd listen to you all the same. And when our games go Online: our Subscribers will be our Players, and we will listen to them.
Your Falacy for preordering is "Mourning ripped everybody off, you will too." I'm not requesting you to PreOrder. I've been ripped off by PreOrders too, I've had an AutoAssault box sitting on my counter since they went on sale... I'm still not in the Beta.
Originally posted by Jorev Previously in this thread, for everyone to read, you said only beta testers who preordered can rollover their characters to retail. Are you now saying that all beta testers can do so? If that is the case, then yes, open beta would be considered the start of retail.
Originally posted by CaesarsGhost Originally posted by Jorev Will you delete preorder characters if the new majority of players including retail subscribers ask for it?
We would investigate a new option for rolling over characters if you managed to bring in a new Majority Vote. Such as a wipe prior to Open Beta, and then only Open Beta Characters who PreOrdered would roll into the Live version of the game. This would be more fair, as anybody who planned on continueing to play the game would still have access to the PreOrder at that time, and would have the capability of rolling into Live.
Originally posted by Jorev Your discrepancies to go with the prevailing wind, do not inspire confidence.
Your lack of action does not warrant replies.
I'm not sure you truely read my responses. I gave you, a non-PreOrderer, Gamer, on a forum not belonging to my company, the chance to change the way we were doing business. 100%, you could change it. You don't like the way we're doing things, so I give you the option to change it! You challenged my words and my companies business practice, and I called. The ball is in your court, how will you procede? Let me refresh your memory:
Originally posted by CaesarsGhost We would investigate a new option for rolling over characters if you managed to bring in a new Majority Vote. Such as a wipe prior to Open Beta, and then only Open Beta Characters who PreOrdered would roll into the Live version of the game. This would be more fair, as anybody who planned on continueing to play the game would still have access to the PreOrder at that time, and would have the capability of rolling into Live.However, as I said before, you must turn the majority vote for an option like that. And we would still roll over characters.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title. "When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Originally posted by Bloodastral I like the sound of this game, unfortunately the reason why I won't play TC is the preorder advantages. I prefer a game without bias, everyone starting at the same step. Yet TC wants your money and if you pay now not only do you get an artifact that advances as you level but your character will roll over from beta. Guess I prefer a game free of marketing ploys and if money can buy this sort of headstart then the furture of your characters could depend on $.
In a way it does make me sort of lose faith... I mean sure, it helps them ensure that they'll get a little bit of support and money to put towards more developement, but I can see it the other way too. It helps reward players who have been supporting it and following it eagerly. True, a lot of us don't want to spend our money preordering a game we're not sure will really be all that great (as I ended up not preordering but my roommate did), but I don't think that it hurts too much that those who did help support the company gets rewarded a little too for their support.
It's like a beta tester who gives tons of good suggestions, reports every bug he finds in full detail, and goes out of his way to find what's wrong with the game and what he can offer up to make it better -- It's a lot of support (though one way with money, and one way with helping within the game, but both help towards developement). Sure, I would reward a good beta tester like that with something special, because of his support. That preorder money is that extra support they need (or maybe not...) to help push the developement even farther.
Originally posted by Bloodastral I like the sound of this game, unfortunately the reason why I won't play TC is the preorder advantages. I prefer a game without bias, everyone starting at the same step. Yet TC wants your money and if you pay now not only do you get an artifact that advances as you level but your character will roll over from beta. Guess I prefer a game free of marketing ploys and if money can buy this sort of headstart then the future of your characters could depend on $.
In a way it does make me sort of lose faith... I mean sure, it helps them ensure that they'll get a little bit of support and money to put towards more development, but I can see it the other way too. It helps reward players who have been supporting it and following it eagerly. True, a lot of us don't want to spend our money preordering a game we're not sure will really be all that great (as I ended up not preordering but my roommate did), but I don't think that it hurts too much that those who did help support the company gets rewarded a little too for their support.
It's like a beta tester who gives tons of good suggestions, reports every bug he finds in full detail, and goes out of his way to find what's wrong with the game and what he can offer up to make it better -- It's a lot of support (though one way with money, and one way with helping within the game, but both help towards development). Sure, I would reward a good beta tester like that with something special, because of his support. That preorder money is that extra support they need (or maybe not...) to help push the development even farther.
The way most MMOG's handle preorder rewards is by offering a discount for paying in advance, and giving preorder customers guaranteed beta spots. That should be sufficient, as being a beta tester does give you an advantage over retail customers in itself, by learning game mechanics and game knowledge in advance.
I believe the decision to also offer a 2 week headstart for building characters and rolling them over to retail was a decision based on Greed as the title of this thread suggests. MMOCenter is apparently desperate for money, not a good sign, and is willing to bastardize their game to gain a few more preorders.
Personally I think it's a bad move, as it probably isn't garnishing them many more preorders than they would have gotten anyway, and will cost them more retail subscribers who feel the way that I do. Only time will tell though.
It would be interesting to know if MMOCenter even did any market research to see how many people would preorder just because of the added advantage of established characters rolling over to retail vs how many players who don't preorder games would reject a game that allowed this unbalance. I suspect the idea was offered by an employee or brought up by fanbois without any unbiased research.
Caesarsghost has made it clear that regardless of what the majority of players want when retail subscribers are added to the equation, they will not rescind the advantage for preorder customers.
Personally I hope The Chronicle and other games like Roma Victor who are doing this also, fail, and that this does not become the norm, as my future choices would be limited. As for now, I will dismiss The Chronicle which I did seriously consider playing at one time, and keep looking forward to Pirates of the Burning Sea which is another game I have been following and looks good so far.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
My ultimate opinion on this poorly argumented topic:
There are two issues to discuss distinctly, the preoder benefits in retail and the potential "greed/ripoff" factor.
I. Regarding the preoder benefits, there isnt a way to tell if thats right or wrong. Its a matter of taste. Since you cant mow everyones garden i would suggest to stick on what you began.
Will there people those dont play the game cause of this matter ? Probably yes, and its totaly ok to do so. I know alot of people those jumped from new server to new server in games, cause they enjoyed the inital gameplay and struggle in a "fresh" world. On the other hand there will be those gamers that always join the established servers, cause that the way they like it. Most just wont care anyways.
II. Regarding the potential "greed/ripoff", offering a preoder like that is no strigency for a greedy company, its may just be a way to do things (See I.). Things like preoder refunding for unsatisified preorders after the delay and the business and team structure of RR are by far stronger evidences that devs are well-disposed towards their customers.
The fact that i personally dont like those preoder benefits myself, i already stated somewhere. I wont argue on this one anymore, ill see how things turn out in the end, and then ill decide wether to buy or not to buy. Arguing in this thread seems rather pointless, rarely seen worse discussions.
P.S. There even is a third issue that should be discussed seperatey, that is if preoders are any good or not. If you ever want to get some light in this matter one should try to discuss those three aspects preoder, greed and preoder-retail benefits seperately.
Personally, the only thing I don't like about the preorder advantages is the item they get. Unless it can be looted it could potentially be very unbalanced but, I think there will be limits on it if it is not lootable.
If there is an open beta and since they are giving time for people to save money if they need to there is no reason for anyone that wants to play at release to not preorder.
If you are really that afraid of not be equal you should probably not play MMOG's because someone will always have an advantage over you. Personally, it would make me work harder to overcome people who had an advantage over me. It would mean more killing someone who had played more/longer than me then to kill someone that was equal.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open. Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
When you create a MMORPG these days, you have to decide if you want to make it fun for:
1) - People who are willing to spend time but no extra money
2) - People who are willing to spend extra money but less time
3) - People who are willing to spend time and extra money
If your business model does not rely on extra money then other companies will benefit from this market and we know even Blizzard (and *cough*SOE*cough*) failed to counter them.
If your business model relies on extra money then the game will be fun for 2) and/or 3) at the risk of alienating 1).
But if your business model relies on extra money and the game is still fun for 1) then BINGO!
Yes there are legitimate reasons not to pre-order, and yes there are legitimate reasons to pre-order. If you ever at some point thought about playing the chronicle you eould have payed $20 so you could have a character in the game world. Unless you were going to wait til some free trial period you were going to pay $20. Trying to call Rapid Reality greedy for having $20 pre-order fee makes no logical sense because that is the subscription fee for their service so you would pay it regardless of whether or not you pre-ordered. Pre-orders also get a discount which means you would pay less than someone who didn't pre-order and waited for release. When you pre-order you are taking the risk of paying ahead of time for a game you wont like and are either punished or rewarded for taking the risk. If they were going to delete characters then there would be no reason for the $20 fee since that would be like me paying for CoH and then having my characters deleted for no reason. Even if they deleted the characters, the beta people would still be ahead of you because they have had more time to learn the systems which is extremely helpful in a game that is partially reliant on the skill of the player and not just the character's stats. If people are really so concerned with others being ahead of them then they would have to have no beta at all. There will always be people out there better than you. Not every person that will some day play the chronicle is going to play right when it is released. New players will come in with people stronger than them. Chances are you won't even meet those people and since there are no numbers floating over people's heads showing their lvl, you wouldn't know if you met them anyway. People are only seeing the negative aspects of having beta characters roll over to live. They don't consider that these players could be possible friends and mentors who charge less than npc trainers. They don't consider the advantage of having player run towns where they could buy supplies and find information about different parts of the game. The pre-orders took a risk and paid early, when they get access to beta they will know whether or not it was worth it. If you choose not to take a risk thats fine, but its not right for people to accuse a company of being greedy and unfair, at least not with the information I have been presented with.
How about a server on wich pre orderers would not be able to reroll?of course it would be less popular at first but sooner or later more people would join.
Originally posted by CaesarsGhost If you managed to rally every last person, then yes. Good luck, cause it only takes one person for us to say "Well, we don't want to go back on what we promised."
The only "we promised" statement I know of is this -
Beta to Live Character Transfer: When MMO Center goes live with its first two games, The Chronicle and Machines, only characters belonging to pre-order subscribers will roll over into the release editions, saving them from being erased or reset. Get ahead. Stay ahead.
On the Pre-order page. There is some latitude about the "roll over" besides the "erased or reset." I still expect beta characters to be changed DURING beta and at some point these changes will end. Also, don't forget other statements made by Rapid Reality (Nathan then) have changed over time, as in by the end of 2005.
I think it will be interesting to see how it works. That those really beta testing the game are rewarded, which seems to be the intent with the transfer and those just leveling their toons during beta have the same game mechanic reward - similar levels - but certainly not the same reward as players intent on beta testing.
Don't be Green with envy as RR has quite the task ahead of them if they want to ensure these B2L characters have a positive affect on the game economy at ALL levels - low, mid, high, and elite.
Originally posted by CaesarsGhost
I'd like to take this last paragraph to note that nothing has changed at this time. We listen to our gamers, very much so in fact. Game systems change according to what they've said they'd like. The methods used have changed according to how they'd like it. We listen to the opinions of potential customers as well. I've given you a way to get those promised things repealed, if you'd like to put forth the effort. It is not I, or other employee's at Rapid Reality you must convince now: it is the Gamers themselves.
Hmmm, I'd rather hope RR has a strong vision for their games and not swing at the whim of the players. Hopefully they won't let the "Gamers" run rampid with whines of player conveniences and other non-immersive factors (like Hz).
I think almost all of you are missing a HUGE point.
"Getting ahead" in TC. You say it like it's just a huge race, first one to become t3h 1337 pwner is the winner.
GUESS WHAT?
It's not a race! It's about having fun!
I'd rather have people there, who know what they're doing, with an established economy, than everyone starting from scratch. Who cares if i'm not the first to do everything? If you are just looking ahead, to see how fast you can get as good as possible, then you won't enjoy the game at all.
I'm kind of amazed how this "BE FIRST ME FIRST WIN FIRST" attitude never seems to go away.
This game is supposed to be fun. It's not supposed to be a race. If you want a race, join a track team.
Originally posted by Momokogo WOW. I think almost all of you are missing a HUGE point. "Getting ahead" in TC. You say it like it's just a huge race, first one to become t3h 1337 pwner is the winner. GUESS WHAT? It's not a race! It's about having fun! I'd rather have people there, who know what they're doing, with an established economy, than everyone starting from scratch. Who cares if i'm not the first to do everything? If you are just looking ahead, to see how fast you can get as good as possible, then you won't enjoy the game at all. I'm kind of amazed how this "BE FIRST ME FIRST WIN FIRST" attitude never seems to go away. This game is supposed to be fun. It's not supposed to be a race. If you want a race, join a track team.
You're amazed at why MMOCenter offered a 2 week headstart to preorder customers and uses slogans like "get ahead, stay ahead"?
That's how they get people to give them money 5 months in advance. They are the ones promoting this mentality.
I will gladly help establish that economy for you and benefit from a 2 week headstart and have fun doing so, just don't charge me anything until retail release at which time I will decide if the game is worthy of paying for, based on what it actually has to offer.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Rapid Reality isn't stupid. Their game shows a lot of promise, and some people are willing to pay money to get ahead because to them, the fun is being the first and best.
The thing is, they're being tricked. They get to play the way the want, and in doing so, make the game more fun for everyone that comes after them.
If you don't have enough faith in it to pay 20$, then don't. All that means is you won't be the first, which shouldn't be a real problem, if your play style is to have fun, not be first.
I personally paid my 20$ not to "Get Ahead, Stay Ahead" but for 2 reasons.
One, I want to help this game succeed. Beta testers aren't just playing beacuse they think the game will be perfect at launch. I'm going to report bugs, not use them to my advantage. I don't want to make the game LESS fun, i want to make it MORE fun.
Two, I want to help support TC. This is a game that i think could end up being groundbreaking. They need all the support they can get to make this game kick huge butt.
Plus, it doesn't hurt to be able to tell people how great it is AFTER i've played. If it sucks, i'll do what i can to make it better. Just because i paid doesn't mean i'll lie and get other people to play a sucky game.
I have no problem with 20$ for a garunteed beta spot. I'm not ending up paying any extra, because i would have just bought this game when it comes oout anyways. In showing my support, i not only get to help it become better, i end up SAVING MONEY.
I'll agree in saying I don't like this trend either. I was pretty keen on Dark and Light for about a year, stopped following it for a few months, then came back in November expecting to finally be able to play it... Bit peeved now, and looking at all the other mmorpgs due for release in 2006 and thinking D&L ain't at the top of my list any more.
I think D&L provides a good example of why early releases are bad - look at how quickly their SoG spots sold out. I think it's bad enough when beta players use their beta experience to get a leg up when a game is released - using their knowledge to level a bit quicker and sell nifty but hard to find items to new players. But their advantage isn't all that great and is usually short lived. Allowing masses of players to populate a world months ahead of everyone else is totally different.
I get the whole "establishing a player driven world" thing, but is it really necessary? Most mmorpgs don't do it - the people who start early aren't entering an established world, and will probably still manage to have fun. And by pre-populating, developers rob the majority of players of the fun of being a part of exploring and establishing that world. I feel like game developers are reaching below the counter and coming up with a, "And here's one I prepared earlier..."
As for the "extras" offered to early starters - I think The Chronicle has made a mistake here too. Some of the extras sound too damned good - eg. this special weapon. Sure it'll be attractive to those considering pre-ordering, but to everyone who doesn't it says "You'll never be quite as good as these guys." Cosmetic but nifty extras, I think, are a safer way to go - eg. the City of Heroes power slide power with the DVD special edition. Looks kinda cool, but makes no real difference to gameplay.
I'll admit I considered pre-ordering this game - not for the extras but just to be able to play it sooner. It looks to have some really good points (eg. I love the look of the treefolk). But the main/regular division and permadeath put me off. From everything I've read main characters are just so much freaking better than regular ones... who'd want to be a regular player? I wouldn't. But permadeath - not for me. Then again, the game is supposedly aiming to have a relatively small playerbase so it might get exactly what it wants and needs to be a success.
But overall, I say thumbs down to the trend of early starts for a limited number of players. For all the players who don't get in on the early deal, t's worse than getting undies for Christmas... it's like getting second-hand undies!!!
by paying $20 you are getting the first month on mmocenter for free. not only that, you're getting a further 25% discount for the next 11 months;
0.75x20 = $15 for each of those 11 months
and
(20-15)x11 = $55 savings
55+20= $75 total savings including first month free.
that's per pre-order'er (nice little tongue twister there). it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see you'd need just over 1300 pre-order'ers to affect RRs bottom line in the first year of live servers to the tune of NEGATIVE $100,000 (assuming all pre-order'ers subscribe for a year).
plus you get a nice little item for one of your characters.
how on earth can this be greed? i'm putting $20 up front now for $75 worth of savings. the greed certainly is not on RRs side.
I have an idea for a game, it's gonna have a lot of cool features and you'll loved it. If you send me $20 now i'll give you a bunch of free levels at start and an item of your choice that levels as you do. Not only that but the sooner I cash your cheque the more powerful your item will be. That's right you can buy uberness and l33t and the cash cow starts now. I defend the above statement in the name of the game and having our player base ask for this. Also you know it'll be good to have lvl 50 characters already established that can give you stuff. Flame on Jonny
The thing is... RR wants to know how many players there will be, right now it seems like they been working 9 months without money, so i think they have some resources. And as someone said they are not being greedy.. they will loose money with this preorder thing. And they are also waiting with beta-release cuzz they want you to get a better first view of the game.
They just want everyone to be happy this time, so you will buy their following games...
Its a big project their working on, and im 100% sure they are capable of doing this. Ive talked with em, and got some insider information ^^ you wont be unhappy with this game!
The thing is, people will be unhappy couse they didnt preorder. Time is their only problem, time = money, release date wont change, im pretty sure.
I can see why he is having a dislike for this. I also understand that the game is skillbased.
However if you are a FPS player then you know that the little things do count when your in a sticky spot or trying to kill the guy who is about even in Real life skill. I guess i'm thinking that all in all at the very endgame area (capped out skill lvls), if i am a really kickass player and the other guy is a kickass player then the one with the best equipment wins.
My FPS reference was to CoD 2, Which I am usually top scorer btw.
er no one has no knowledge outside of TC Staff what this item will be, i very much doubt it will make a difference as that would be pretty dum to give players an unequalled advantage.
Well likely be a different skin item with same stats as a current item.
Also beta testers will be likely have to start from lvl 1 again, i dont think many games make the mistake nowadays of lettin closed beta testers have a lvlin advantage nowadays.
Originally posted by haz-fa er no one has no knowledge outside of TC Staff what this item will be, i very much doubt it will make a difference as that would be pretty dum to give players an unequalled advantage. Well likely be a different skin item with same stats as a current item. Also beta testers will be likely have to start from lvl 1 again, i dont think many games make the mistake nowadays of lettin closed beta testers have a lvlin advantage nowadays. Only advantage should be knowledge of the game.
Actually, anyone who pre-orders can play the beta and will not have to start over when the game is released. They are letting them roll-over because there needs to be player created cities and towns when the game is released. I think i read that somewhere on the forums.
Originally posted by haz-fa er no one has no knowledge outside of TC Staff what this item will be, i very much doubt it will make a difference as that would be pretty dum to give players an unequalled advantage. Well likely be a different skin item with same stats as a current item.
Actually, pre-order (beta members) were given some information on the special item and I won't type any of that information because I would be breaching the NDA. I assume you've also read the FAQ's and know that the item will be customisable.
Pre-Order FAQ - Instead of offeringcharacters a stock special item that they often outgrow, pre-order customers will be able to customize a unique item that evolves along with their character. These items are very powerful, and the earlier you pre-order, the more powerful your custom item will be!
Originally posted by haz-fa
Also beta testers will be likely have to start from lvl 1 again, i dont think many games make the mistake nowadays of lettin closed beta testers have a lvlin advantage nowadays.
Only advantage should be knowledge of the game.
Beta testers won't have to start from level 1 again because their characters will be rolled over when the game is released. This is also stated in the FAQs.
Pre-Order FAQ - When MMO Center goes live with its first two games, The Chronicle and Machines, only characters belonging to pre-order subscribers will roll over into the release editions, saving them from being erased or reset. Get ahead and stay ahead!
Actually, anyone who pre-orders can play the beta and will not have to start over when the game is released. They are letting them roll-over because there needs to be player created cities and towns when the game is released. I think i read that somewhere on the forums.
I've been looking for another (newer) MMO to move to for a couple of weeks now. I rejoined AO to see what happened to it and see if I could find a couple of people that I knew about three years ago.
I THOUTH that this was going to be a great game-- and it still looks like one. I also want to start a NEW game so that (for once) I can be on at least a fairly even footing with the other players (gee-- wouldn't that be nice for a change?).
Thanks again, I'm going to start looking again.....
Comments
In MMO's everyone will never be on an equal playing field. There will always be people that buy money off ebay and have time to play non-stop. Those that have more money will always have an advantage. Rolling over characters isn't that big of a deal. It just rewards those that have faith and helped to test. They are giving several months to preorder so it isn't like there won't be time to accumulate money for the preorder.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open.
Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
With the option of rollover from only the Open Beta, you could consider Open Beta the retail version. Free for however many weeks of play we make it. It's not closed to anybody, whether they are preorderers or not, which would mean all players have 100% ability to continue playing at the subscription price. Even you cannot argue that to be unfair, as it would be going back against what you said previously.
In fact, Open Beta is a luxury that is not required at all. It is a luxury in order to advertise the game to potential customers who feel as you do, that you should not PreOrder. However, any player wishing to continue playing will, whether they preorder or not, pay the subscription cost. Anybody in that group will become a member of our community and have a say.
I'd like to take this last paragraph to note that nothing has changed at this time. We listen to our gamers, very much so in fact. Game systems change according to what they've said they'd like. The methods used have changed according to how they'd like it. We listen to the opinions of potential customers as well.
I've given you a way to get those promised things repealed, if you'd like to put forth the effort. It is not I, or other employee's at Rapid Reality you must convince now: it is the Gamers themselves.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
My Fallacy for not preordering?
Are you unfamiliar with the fiasco surrounding the preorder of "Mourning"? Are you in denial that many MMOG's are shipped listing content that is not included in the initial release?
Perhaps you would like to show evidence that MMOCenter is incapable of doing the same. I am merely suggesting the possibility given the history of your industry, and that is sufficient legitimacy for not preordering any MMOG.
Previously in this thread, for everyone to read, you said only beta testers who preordered can rollover their characters to retail. Are you now saying that all beta testers can do so? If that is the case, then yes, open beta would be considered the start of retail.
You also said previously in this thread, for all to read, that you only listen to your customers, which currently are preorder customers. You now say you listen to potential customers as well. Well which is it? Your discrepancies to go with the prevailing wind, do not inspire confidence.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
I can see I'm getting nowhere explaining to you. So this is my last post about the topic:
"Only listen to our preorderers" was in reference to what you would think. Read the sentance again.
Your Falacy for preordering is "Mourning ripped everybody off, you will too." I'm not requesting you to PreOrder. I've been ripped off by PreOrders too, I've had an AutoAssault box sitting on my counter since they went on sale... I'm still not in the Beta.
We would investigate a new option for rolling over characters if you managed to bring in a new Majority Vote. Such as a wipe prior to Open Beta, and then only Open Beta Characters who PreOrdered would roll into the Live version of the game. This would be more fair, as anybody who planned on continueing to play the game would still have access to the PreOrder at that time, and would have the capability of rolling into Live.Your lack of action does not warrant replies.
I'm not sure you truely read my responses. I gave you, a non-PreOrderer, Gamer, on a forum not belonging to my company, the chance to change the way we were doing business. 100%, you could change it. You don't like the way we're doing things, so I give you the option to change it! You challenged my words and my companies business practice, and I called. The ball is in your court, how will you procede? Let me refresh your memory:
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
In a way it does make me sort of lose faith... I mean sure, it helps them ensure that they'll get a little bit of support and money to put towards more developement, but I can see it the other way too. It helps reward players who have been supporting it and following it eagerly. True, a lot of us don't want to spend our money preordering a game we're not sure will really be all that great (as I ended up not preordering but my roommate did), but I don't think that it hurts too much that those who did help support the company gets rewarded a little too for their support.
It's like a beta tester who gives tons of good suggestions, reports every bug he finds in full detail, and goes out of his way to find what's wrong with the game and what he can offer up to make it better -- It's a lot of support (though one way with money, and one way with helping within the game, but both help towards developement). Sure, I would reward a good beta tester like that with something special, because of his support. That preorder money is that extra support they need (or maybe not...) to help push the developement even farther.
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何ゆうてんねんぼけ
In a way it does make me sort of lose faith... I mean sure, it helps them ensure that they'll get a little bit of support and money to put towards more development, but I can see it the other way too. It helps reward players who have been supporting it and following it eagerly. True, a lot of us don't want to spend our money preordering a game we're not sure will really be all that great (as I ended up not preordering but my roommate did), but I don't think that it hurts too much that those who did help support the company gets rewarded a little too for their support.
It's like a beta tester who gives tons of good suggestions, reports every bug he finds in full detail, and goes out of his way to find what's wrong with the game and what he can offer up to make it better -- It's a lot of support (though one way with money, and one way with helping within the game, but both help towards development). Sure, I would reward a good beta tester like that with something special, because of his support. That preorder money is that extra support they need (or maybe not...) to help push the development even farther.
The way most MMOG's handle preorder rewards is by offering a discount for paying in advance, and giving preorder customers guaranteed beta spots. That should be sufficient, as being a beta tester does give you an advantage over retail customers in itself, by learning game mechanics and game knowledge in advance.
I believe the decision to also offer a 2 week headstart for building characters and rolling them over to retail was a decision based on Greed as the title of this thread suggests. MMOCenter is apparently desperate for money, not a good sign, and is willing to bastardize their game to gain a few more preorders.
Personally I think it's a bad move, as it probably isn't garnishing them many more preorders than they would have gotten anyway, and will cost them more retail subscribers who feel the way that I do. Only time will tell though.
It would be interesting to know if MMOCenter even did any market research to see how many people would preorder just because of the added advantage of established characters rolling over to retail vs how many players who don't preorder games would reject a game that allowed this unbalance. I suspect the idea was offered by an employee or brought up by fanbois without any unbiased research.
Caesarsghost has made it clear that regardless of what the majority of players want when retail subscribers are added to the equation, they will not rescind the advantage for preorder customers.
Personally I hope The Chronicle and other games like Roma Victor who are doing this also, fail, and that this does not become the norm, as my future choices would be limited. As for now, I will dismiss The Chronicle which I did seriously consider playing at one time, and keep looking forward to Pirates of the Burning Sea which is another game I have been following and looks good so far.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
My ultimate opinion on this poorly argumented topic:
There are two issues to discuss distinctly, the preoder benefits in retail and the potential "greed/ripoff" factor.
I. Regarding the preoder benefits, there isnt a way to tell if thats right or wrong. Its a matter of taste. Since you cant mow everyones garden i would suggest to stick on what you began.
Will there people those dont play the game cause of this matter ? Probably yes, and its totaly ok to do so. I know alot of people those jumped from new server to new server in games, cause they enjoyed the inital gameplay and struggle in a "fresh" world. On the other hand there will be those gamers that always join the established servers, cause that the way they like it. Most just wont care anyways.
II. Regarding the potential "greed/ripoff", offering a preoder like that is no strigency for a greedy company, its may just be a way to do things (See I.). Things like preoder refunding for unsatisified preorders after the delay and the business and team structure of RR are by far stronger evidences that devs are well-disposed towards their customers.
The fact that i personally dont like those preoder benefits myself, i already stated somewhere. I wont argue on this one anymore, ill see how things turn out in the end, and then ill decide wether to buy or not to buy. Arguing in this thread seems rather pointless, rarely seen worse discussions.
P.S. There even is a third issue that should be discussed seperatey, that is if preoders are any good or not. If you ever want to get some light in this matter one should try to discuss those three aspects preoder, greed and preoder-retail benefits seperately.
Personally, the only thing I don't like about the preorder advantages is the item they get. Unless it can be looted it could potentially be very unbalanced but, I think there will be limits on it if it is not lootable.
If there is an open beta and since they are giving time for people to save money if they need to there is no reason for anyone that wants to play at release to not preorder.
If you are really that afraid of not be equal you should probably not play MMOG's because someone will always have an advantage over you. Personally, it would make me work harder to overcome people who had an advantage over me. It would mean more killing someone who had played more/longer than me then to kill someone that was equal.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open.
Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
Let's get to the bottom of this if you please.
When you create a MMORPG these days, you have to decide if you want to make it fun for:
1) - People who are willing to spend time but no extra money
2) - People who are willing to spend extra money but less time
3) - People who are willing to spend time and extra money
If your business model does not rely on extra money then other companies will benefit from this market and
we know even Blizzard (and *cough*SOE*cough*) failed to counter them.
If your business model relies on extra money then the game will be fun for 2) and/or 3)
at the risk of alienating 1).
But if your business model relies on extra money and the game is still fun for 1) then BINGO!
Time will tell...
Yes there are legitimate reasons not to pre-order, and yes there are legitimate reasons to pre-order. If you ever at some point thought about playing the chronicle you eould have payed $20 so you could have a character in the game world. Unless you were going to wait til some free trial period you were going to pay $20. Trying to call Rapid Reality greedy for having $20 pre-order fee makes no logical sense because that is the subscription fee for their service so you would pay it regardless of whether or not you pre-ordered. Pre-orders also get a discount which means you would pay less than someone who didn't pre-order and waited for release. When you pre-order you are taking the risk of paying ahead of time for a game you wont like and are either punished or rewarded for taking the risk. If they were going to delete characters then there would be no reason for the $20 fee since that would be like me paying for CoH and then having my characters deleted for no reason. Even if they deleted the characters, the beta people would still be ahead of you because they have had more time to learn the systems which is extremely helpful in a game that is partially reliant on the skill of the player and not just the character's stats. If people are really so concerned with others being ahead of them then they would have to have no beta at all. There will always be people out there better than you. Not every person that will some day play the chronicle is going to play right when it is released. New players will come in with people stronger than them. Chances are you won't even meet those people and since there are no numbers floating over people's heads showing their lvl, you wouldn't know if you met them anyway. People are only seeing the negative aspects of having beta characters roll over to live. They don't consider that these players could be possible friends and mentors who charge less than npc trainers. They don't consider the advantage of having player run towns where they could buy supplies and find information about different parts of the game. The pre-orders took a risk and paid early, when they get access to beta they will know whether or not it was worth it. If you choose not to take a risk thats fine, but its not right for people to accuse a company of being greedy and unfair, at least not with the information I have been presented with.
How about a server on wich pre orderers would not be able to reroll?of course it would be less popular at first but sooner or later more people would join.
That way everyone will be somewhat happy no?
just a tought.
The only "we promised" statement I know of is this -
On the Pre-order page. There is some latitude about the "roll over" besides the "erased or reset." I still expect beta characters to be changed DURING beta and at some point these changes will end. Also, don't forget other statements made by Rapid Reality (Nathan then) have changed over time, as in by the end of 2005.
I think it will be interesting to see how it works. That those really beta testing the game are rewarded, which seems to be the intent with the transfer and those just leveling their toons during beta have the same game mechanic reward - similar levels - but certainly not the same reward as players intent on beta testing.
Don't be Green with envy as RR has quite the task ahead of them if they want to ensure these B2L characters have a positive affect on the game economy at ALL levels - low, mid, high, and elite.
Hmmm, I'd rather hope RR has a strong vision for their games and not swing at the whim of the players. Hopefully they won't let the "Gamers" run rampid with whines of player conveniences and other non-immersive factors (like Hz).
WOW.
I think almost all of you are missing a HUGE point.
"Getting ahead" in TC. You say it like it's just a huge race, first one to become t3h 1337 pwner is the winner.
GUESS WHAT?
It's not a race! It's about having fun!
I'd rather have people there, who know what they're doing, with an established economy, than everyone starting from scratch. Who cares if i'm not the first to do everything? If you are just looking ahead, to see how fast you can get as good as possible, then you won't enjoy the game at all.
I'm kind of amazed how this "BE FIRST ME FIRST WIN FIRST" attitude never seems to go away.
This game is supposed to be fun. It's not supposed to be a race. If you want a race, join a track team.
You're amazed at why MMOCenter offered a 2 week headstart to preorder customers and uses slogans like "get ahead, stay ahead"?
That's how they get people to give them money 5 months in advance. They are the ones promoting this mentality.
I will gladly help establish that economy for you
and benefit from a 2 week headstart and have fun doing so, just don't charge me anything until retail release at which time I will decide if the game is worthy of paying for, based on what it actually has to offer.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
Rapid Reality isn't stupid. Their game shows a lot of promise, and some people are willing to pay money to get ahead because to them, the fun is being the first and best.
The thing is, they're being tricked. They get to play the way the want, and in doing so, make the game more fun for everyone that comes after them.
If you don't have enough faith in it to pay 20$, then don't. All that means is you won't be the first, which shouldn't be a real problem, if your play style is to have fun, not be first.
I personally paid my 20$ not to "Get Ahead, Stay Ahead" but for 2 reasons.
One, I want to help this game succeed. Beta testers aren't just playing beacuse they think the game will be perfect at launch. I'm going to report bugs, not use them to my advantage. I don't want to make the game LESS fun, i want to make it MORE fun.
Two, I want to help support TC. This is a game that i think could end up being groundbreaking. They need all the support they can get to make this game kick huge butt.
Plus, it doesn't hurt to be able to tell people how great it is AFTER i've played. If it sucks, i'll do what i can to make it better. Just because i paid doesn't mean i'll lie and get other people to play a sucky game.
I have no problem with 20$ for a garunteed beta spot. I'm not ending up paying any extra, because i would have just bought this game when it comes oout anyways. In showing my support, i not only get to help it become better, i end up SAVING MONEY.
I'll agree in saying I don't like this trend either. I was pretty keen on Dark and Light for about a year, stopped following it for a few months, then came back in November expecting to finally be able to play it... Bit peeved now, and looking at all the other mmorpgs due for release in 2006 and thinking D&L ain't at the top of my list any more.
I think D&L provides a good example of why early releases are bad - look at how quickly their SoG spots sold out. I think it's bad enough when beta players use their beta experience to get a leg up when a game is released - using their knowledge to level a bit quicker and sell nifty but hard to find items to new players. But their advantage isn't all that great and is usually short lived. Allowing masses of players to populate a world months ahead of everyone else is totally different.
I get the whole "establishing a player driven world" thing, but is it really necessary? Most mmorpgs don't do it - the people who start early aren't entering an established world, and will probably still manage to have fun. And by pre-populating, developers rob the majority of players of the fun of being a part of exploring and establishing that world. I feel like game developers are reaching below the counter and coming up with a, "And here's one I prepared earlier..."
As for the "extras" offered to early starters - I think The Chronicle has made a mistake here too. Some of the extras sound too damned good - eg. this special weapon. Sure it'll be attractive to those considering pre-ordering, but to everyone who doesn't it says "You'll never be quite as good as these guys." Cosmetic but nifty extras, I think, are a safer way to go - eg. the City of Heroes power slide power with the DVD special edition. Looks kinda cool, but makes no real difference to gameplay.
I'll admit I considered pre-ordering this game - not for the extras but just to be able to play it sooner. It looks to have some really good points (eg. I love the look of the treefolk). But the main/regular division and permadeath put me off. From everything I've read main characters are just so much freaking better than regular ones... who'd want to be a regular player? I wouldn't. But permadeath - not for me. Then again, the game is supposedly aiming to have a relatively small playerbase so it might get exactly what it wants and needs to be a success.
But overall, I say thumbs down to the trend of early starts for a limited number of players. For all the players who don't get in on the early deal, t's worse than getting undies for Christmas... it's like getting second-hand undies!!!
no, RR is not being greedy. want to know why?
by paying $20 you are getting the first month on mmocenter for free. not only that, you're getting a further 25% discount for the next 11 months;
0.75x20 = $15 for each of those 11 months
and
(20-15)x11 = $55 savings
55+20= $75 total savings including first month free.
that's per pre-order'er (nice little tongue twister there). it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see you'd need just over 1300 pre-order'ers to affect RRs bottom line in the first year of live servers to the tune of NEGATIVE $100,000 (assuming all pre-order'ers subscribe for a year).
plus you get a nice little item for one of your characters.
how on earth can this be greed? i'm putting $20 up front now for $75 worth of savings. the greed certainly is not on RRs side.
The thing is... RR wants to know how many players there will be, right now it seems like they been working 9 months without money, so i think they have some resources. And as someone said they are not being greedy.. they will loose money with this preorder thing. And they are also waiting with beta-release cuzz they want you to get a better first view of the game.
They just want everyone to be happy this time, so you will buy their following games...
Its a big project their working on, and im 100% sure they are capable of doing this. Ive talked with em, and got some insider information ^^ you wont be unhappy with this game!
The thing is, people will be unhappy couse they didnt preorder. Time is their only problem, time = money, release date wont change, im pretty sure.
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Im cool!
I can see why he is having a dislike for this. I also understand that the game is skillbased.
However if you are a FPS player then you know that the little things do count when your in a sticky spot or trying to kill the guy who is about even in Real life skill. I guess i'm thinking that all in all at the very endgame area (capped out skill lvls), if i am a really kickass player and the other guy is a kickass player then the one with the best equipment wins.
My FPS reference was to CoD 2, Which I am usually top scorer btw.
er no one has no knowledge outside of TC Staff what this item will be, i very much doubt it will make a difference as that would be pretty dum to give players an unequalled advantage.
Well likely be a different skin item with same stats as a current item.
Also beta testers will be likely have to start from lvl 1 again, i dont think many games make the mistake nowadays of lettin closed beta testers have a lvlin advantage nowadays.
Only advantage should be knowledge of the game.
Actually, anyone who pre-orders can play the beta and will not have to start over when the game is released. They are letting them roll-over because there needs to be player created cities and towns when the game is released. I think i read that somewhere on the forums.
Actually, pre-order (beta members) were given some information on the special item and I won't type any of that information because I would be breaching the NDA. I assume you've also read the FAQ's and know that the item will be customisable.
Pre-Order FAQ - Instead of offering characters a stock special item that they often outgrow, pre-order customers will be able to customize a unique item that evolves along with their character. These items are very powerful, and the earlier you pre-order, the more powerful your custom item will be!
Beta testers won't have to start from level 1 again because their characters will be rolled over when the game is released. This is also stated in the FAQs.
Pre-Order FAQ - When MMO Center goes live with its first two games, The Chronicle and Machines, only characters belonging to pre-order subscribers will roll over into the release editions, saving them from being erased or reset. Get ahead and stay ahead!
The above were taken from the FAQ's (Pre-Order questions) here: http://www.mmocenter.com/v2/faq.php
That is correct.
I was actually thinking about playing this game until I read that.
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Thank Jorev,
I've been looking for another (newer) MMO to move to for a couple of weeks now. I rejoined AO to see what happened to it and see if I could find a couple of people that I knew about three years ago.
I THOUTH that this was going to be a great game-- and it still looks like one. I also want to start a NEW game so that (for once) I can be on at least a fairly even footing with the other players (gee-- wouldn't that be nice for a change?).
Thanks again, I'm going to start looking again.....
Peter