If SOE/LA decide to dump SWG, I doubt the reason would be that the game wasn't profitable. As a director, if a project isn't meeting certian metrics, I may dump that project and invest in ones that are. Profitability is relative.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Man, how many times can you avoid answering my question? The damage is ALREADY done, they can lose NOTHING buy keeping it running. They will do what they ALWAYS do and continue with business as usual, the whining will die down and fade away and they can just let it run on its own on a small staff doing some occasional patching if they actually wanna try at this point (which they don't need too since the community has proven you can give them trash and they will still play it to be able to play a star wars MMO). The shut it down they open the wounds up all over again, prove everyone right, become more of a "laughing stock" as you put it and have that mark in this MMO history books for the rest of their exhistance. Right now they have issued a "contraversial update". You seem to think "closing down an MMO because of a contraversial update" is better business. Good thinking there... Maybe later you will actually think of an answer to my question which was: "How is closing SWG a good business decision?" So far all you have given me is a horrible business plan of an entire new investment they don't even have the right to develop right now. And you think because some players are pissed off and a developer here or there has made an off statement about them that they are a "laughing stock" of the MMO development community. I think Turbine has already earned that far more then they have and they aren't even the worst. So when you actually think up a real answer, look me up because your just flailing at this point.
Fad, THIS GAME COULD MAKE BILLIONS ANNUALLY!!!!! So it would be a good business decision to shut off the servers and make a more palattable game to cash in on the players a SW MMO can have... I don't think I can explain it any clearer...
SWG SHUT DOWN = PAVING WAY FOR NEW & BETTER SW MMO TO MAKE BILLIONS ANNUALLY LIKE WoW
Lets see, making a mere 10mil a year versus 10 mil a month, or like WoW, hundreds of millions a month... The more you post and type Fadeus, the more it is apparent that you wouldn't know a good business plan if it bit you in the ass...
Originally posted by Elnator If we'd known about NGE back then we'd have already been gone. You predicted that the CU would kill SWG. If they'd left the CU and not done NGE SWG would be growing right now. Up till the stealth XP nerf that we caught them red-handed in the player base was in a rapid and steady growth stage. And people were NOT cancelling. As a matter of fact, most people who initially cancelled when the CU hit had come back.
Not to nitpick.. but Smedley admitted in an interview that the CU actually gave them net losses on subscriptions. That it had turned down.
Torres said it too.
Which is why they knee-jerked out the nge.
And to add.. the bottom line of subscribers is different in this equasion because...
1. They have to split the profits 2. LA has certain expectations of success 3. They say they have 70 devs working on it.. they'll have to sack a lot of people first.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Originally posted by IcoGames Fist, DAoC is for suckers! Anywho ...If SOE/LA decide to dump SWG, I doubt the reason would be that the game wasn't profitable. As a director, if a project isn't meeting certian metrics, I may dump that project and invest in ones that are. Profitability is relative.
How is it for suckers? I am enjoying the heck out of it. It also holds the singular honor as being the only MMORPG out of numerous that I tried that actually managed to keep me out of EQ.... even when playing SWG I occasionally hopped on EQ. When I was playing DAOC for the 1.5 years I played it the first time around I didn't log back into EQ even once.
Granted with SWG I had the AAP so it was much easier to hop on EQ at will... but I never even had the urge when playing DAOC. I left the game originally only because my entire guild had moved on to Shadowbane. Now, going back and starting over on the classic servers the game is amazingly better than it was at release. If PVP isn't your bag it's not quite as good as the more PVE oriented MMO's (EQ2/WoW) but overall it's better than either of them. Since I love factional PVP DAOC is very fun for me.
As I said in a prior post here: Thank you! SWG! For making me leave! Because if I hadn't I wouldn't have re-discovered DAOC!
For me: It's the most fun fantasy MMORPG out.
Your mileage, of course, will vary.
As to dumping a profitable game? SOE has already proven that they don't handle things the way you do. They have Infantry, Tanarus and PlanetSide still running despite all of them having minimal player bases. People who actually play planetside have reported steady drops in server loads for months now.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Elnator's analysis may not apply to SWG in its present form.
First, there is no single initial investment to be recouped. (a) There has been ongoing investment into a series of costly expansions, none of which have substantially grown the subscriber base, and with the exception of JtL, none of which have sold anything like the base game. (b) There is a hefty license fee that comes out of SOE's bottom line, year in and year out.
Second, there are loss events on the books. (a) The Japanese servers were shut down after an unsuccessful year, and refunds/transfers issued. (Finances aside, this represents the ultimate loss of face for any Sony unit.) (b) The Trials of Obi-Wan refund.
Third, income is diluted. (a) Station Access, which (like SOE's other efforts) has not measurably increased the SWG playerbase, still results in less monthly income being credited to the SWG ledger. EQ2 is currently the biggest beneficiary. (b) The strong dollar means that Europe in general operates at a loss. Contractual, legal and logistical considerations keep the datacenter and servers operating, unlike Japan.
Fourth, costs are boosted. (a) Bug-plagued releases and game changes increase the cost per player and the cost per CS call. You can lay reps off and they will after the holidays, but the remaining reps work more hours. (b) Architectural considerations mean that many human and capital costs are tied to the game's peak size, not its current size. It is nowhere near 4 times as cheap to service 62,000 players as it is to service 250,000.
And there are other non-financial considerations. The inability to operate profitably in Asia, for example, and the unavailability of a console port, are heavy blows to SWG's competitive position at a company that publicly proclaims that Asia and Console are the future.
Elnator's analysis works for a new, wholly-owned game title in its growth phase. I do not think it will protect SWG from retirement under present trends.
Just an FYI From inside the market information: If a game has 50,000 subscribers it will recoup its cost of development in about 1-2 years depending on investment in development. If it has 100,000 subscribers it will recoup it's costs within 6 months to a year. If it has over 200,000 subscribers it's 3-6 months. SWG has been running in "pure profit" mode for over 2 years. Even now it's still in 'pure profit' mode as long as it's got more than about 50k subscribers. Even with the investment into NGE and TV adds. You need to learn more about the costs behind the game before making the blanket statements that you are. The bottom line is that unless the subscriber base drops below 50,000 subscribers then SWG is still profitable. Now... whether LA is willing to have it limp along with 50k subscribers is an entirely different question. We already know that SOE has no problems with letting a title they own run with 50k (or fewer) subs, as long as it's cutting a problem. See PlanetSide, Tanarus and Infantry as prime examples of games that are still open. Matter of fact I doubt Infantry or Tanarus are even profitable any longer but they're STILL up and running. So, I would posit that as long as LucasArts LETS SOE keep the game running it will continue to run as long as it is making money. Those TV Adds, in the grand scheme of things, aint all that expensive. Maybe a month's profits, at most. I suspect, however, that if SOE doesn't get things turned around, and fast, that LA will pull the plug on the game entirely.
You are not accounting for the costs of overhead after the developmental phase... Seriously, overhead is a bitch, any businessman or woman will tell you this... "Inside the market information", what the hell is that supposed to mean? Your statements are as much in a 'blanket' fashion as mine are... Also, you are not accounting the outrageous pricetag a SW license would carry... People, you need to stop and think for once... All these numbers mean nothing, if a Korean developer runs a sweatshop of programmers and comes up with an NC Soft title, their profitability outcome is going to be drastically different than in a country where fair labor laws are in place... Personally, I don't think these numbers hold any credibility whatsoever, the only way these numbers would mean anything is if the person who came up with them was the bookeeper for every last MMO that exists...
Originally posted by Clattuc Elnator's analysis may not apply to SWG in its present form. First, there is no single initial investment to be recouped. (a) There has been ongoing investment into a series of costly expansions, none of which have substantially grown the subscriber base, and with the exception of JtL, none of which have sold anything like the base game. (b) There is a hefty license fee that comes out of SOE's bottom line, year in and year out. Second, there are loss events on the books. (a) The Japanese servers were shut down after an unsuccessful year, and refunds/transfers issued. (Finances aside, this represents the ultimate loss of face for any Sony unit.) (b) The Trials of Obi-Wan refund. Third, income is diluted. (a) Station Access, which (like SOE's other efforts) has not measurably increased the SWG playerbase, still results in less monthly income being credited to the SWG ledger. EQ2 is currently the biggest beneficiary. (b) The strong dollar means that Europe in general operates at a loss. Contractual, legal and logistical considerations keep the datacenter and servers operating, unlike Japan. Fourth, costs are boosted. (a) Bug-plagued releases and game changes increase the cost per player and the cost per CS call. You can lay reps off and they will after the holidays, but the remaining reps work more hours. (b) Architectural considerations mean that many human and capital costs are tied to the game's peak size, not its current size. It is nowhere near 4 times as cheap to service 62,000 players as it is to service 250,000. And there are other non-financial considerations. The inability to operate profitably in Asia, for example, and the unavailability of a console port, are heavy blows to SWG's competitive position at a company that publicly proclaims that Asia and Console are the future. Elnator's analysis works for a new, wholly-owned game title in its growth phase. I do not think it will protect SWG from retirement under present trends.
I have been harping on and on about the costs associated with the post-developmental blunder that is SWG, it is nice to see someone who actually knows what a PnL report would look like, or what opportunity costs are and other fundamental business functions... Most people would rather do a google search and spout off numbers that might have been true at one point, but the variables such as failed expansions, failed markets (Asia), failed console dreams and a failed (and ungodly expensive) LA license are never accounted for and IMO are too deep and complex of economic arguments to be had on MMORPG.com... Anyways, kudos to the post...
Dont forget the advertising costs and in-house public relations. Both are counted against SWG in the ledger.
The recent starter kit ads on GT4, MTV, Sci Fi, and a few others will cost quite a bit. The average primetime 30 second spot on a national cable channel will run about $200,000. And thats a discounted rate based on multiple spots purchased.
On average. (from my own personal observations) they've easily spent $800,000 a day on weekends. If they're smart and run spots on Tues, Wed, and Thursday (mon and friday are dead ad days), thats another $600,000-$1.2 million (2 per day). Add in the 1.6 million for weekend spots...total over just 2 weeks is little under $5 million. Double that if they go a month.
Now when the suits get together, they see -5,000,000 for advertising ....+ $20 (per kit) x the number of sold..... - product costs..... - distribution costs.....= major losses.
They would need to sell a whole lot of kits to recoup those losses.
Originally posted by admriker444 Dont forget the advertising costs and in-house public relations. Both are counted against SWG in the ledger. The recent starter kit ads on GT4, MTV, Sci Fi, and a few others will cost quite a bit. The average primetime 30 second spot on a national cable channel will run about $200,000. And thats a discounted rate based on multiple spots purchased. On average. (from my own personal observations) they've easily spent $800,000 a day on weekends. If they're smart and run spots on Tues, Wed, and Thursday (mon and friday are dead ad days), thats another $600,000-$1.2 million (2 per day). Add in the 1.6 million for weekend spots...total over just 2 weeks is little under $5 million. Double that if they go a month. Now when the suits get together, they see -5,000,000 for advertising ....+ $20 (per kit) x the number of sold..... - product costs..... - distribution costs.....= major losses. They would need to sell a whole lot of kits to recoup those losses.
Thats a lot of number to go over. On a side note...you wouldnt happen to know what we would have to do to get the "dead ad days" expanded to at least include Tuesdays and Thursdays as well would you?
Originally posted by admriker444 Dont forget the advertising costs and in-house public relations. Both are counted against SWG in the ledger. The recent starter kit ads on GT4, MTV, Sci Fi, and a few others will cost quite a bit. The average primetime 30 second spot on a national cable channel will run about $200,000. And thats a discounted rate based on multiple spots purchased. On average. (from my own personal observations) they've easily spent $800,000 a day on weekends. If they're smart and run spots on Tues, Wed, and Thursday (mon and friday are dead ad days), thats another $600,000-$1.2 million (2 per day). Add in the 1.6 million for weekend spots...total over just 2 weeks is little under $5 million. Double that if they go a month. Now when the suits get together, they see -5,000,000 for advertising ....+ $20 (per kit) x the number of sold..... - product costs..... - distribution costs.....= major losses. They would need to sell a whole lot of kits to recoup those losses.
That sure looks different than the claim that SWG can pay for all of the advertising in "one month"... Some of the pointed responses are my own fault though, I get a little abrasive at times, and either bring out the best or the worst in people...
Originally posted by admriker444 Dont forget the advertising costs and in-house public relations. Both are counted against SWG in the ledger. The recent starter kit ads on GT4, MTV, Sci Fi, and a few others will cost quite a bit. The average primetime 30 second spot on a national cable channel will run about $200,000. And thats a discounted rate based on multiple spots purchased. On average. (from my own personal observations) they've easily spent $800,000 a day on weekends. If they're smart and run spots on Tues, Wed, and Thursday (mon and friday are dead ad days), thats another $600,000-$1.2 million (2 per day). Add in the 1.6 million for weekend spots...total over just 2 weeks is little under $5 million. Double that if they go a month. Now when the suits get together, they see -5,000,000 for advertising ....+ $20 (per kit) x the number of sold..... - product costs..... - distribution costs.....= major losses. They would need to sell a whole lot of kits to recoup those losses.
That sure looks different than the claim that SWG can pay for all of the advertising in "one month"... Some of the pointed responses are my own fault though, I get a little abrasive at times, and either bring out the best or the worst in people...
Good points Clattuc but you missed the main flaw in Elnator's pessimism that SWG won't be shut down. He assumes it's and SOE decision. It will be shut down by LA pulling the contract.
Compared to SOEs other games Sony has probably always been content with subscriber numbers and profits of SWG. Until last year LA was as well, after all, while not the biggest, SWG was one of the bigger MMORPGs and run by the biggest MMO company. Sure they knew it should have been the biggest but it wasn't all that much off the mark by comparison to the other games out there.
Then WoW came out. LA saw how big SWG really could have been, and at the same time, numbers dropped significantly as people left for WoW. Remember it wasn't until the start of this year that SWG had such a big dev team. I think LA told SOE 'Our contract is up for renewal/termination soon, do what you have to do to make the game bigger.' Either not realizing that, if SOE had the intelligence to be capable of making SWG live up to it's potential, they already would have, or blind optimism that with a fire under them to save the contract, SOE could pull out a rabbit.
So SOE tried a few things. They started off good, more frequent patches and bug fixes, faction bases for planetary control. That stopped the haemoraging to WoW that was already slowed by people discovering how much more simplistic WoW was. Losses dropped back to the slow trickle that is normal for an older MMO. LA decided to have SOE do an expansion, and advertise the game in the movie theatres. Brilliant on both counts, and this did bring in many new (note: new not additional) players. Unfortunately SOE did the CU at the same time for no apparent reason. Released it unfinished with poor communication to the veteran players and full of even more bugs and gaping design flaws than what it replaced. So they lost as many as they gained.
The clock continued to tick away towards end of contract. SOE in desperation tried another complete revamp, this time in an even less-finished state, instead of poor communication they had none, and even more bugs and flaws, not to mention the outright fraud in billing for ToOW immediately prior to announcing the Nerfed Game Experience. This time the player losses have been and continue to be apocalyptic. The contract renewal/termination date continues to tick closer. I'm sure SOE would love all their games to be as popular and profitable as WoW, who wouldn't. They haven't messed with their other titles trying to achieve that because they know they have no clue how to do it. If they thought they could, they would. They tried anyway with SWG because they go told to get the numbers up to where they should have always been, or else. They had nothing to lose.
It has been suggested that LA is more at fault than SOE. I don't by that. LA would give direction in broad strokes. 'Make it bigger like WoW', 'Make an expansion to tie in with this movie release', 'Make it possible for people to play as Jedi', 'Do these things by these dates'. SOE is the MMORPG company, it would have been left to them to decide HOW to do those things and all the other details of making/running the game. Torres is just a token LA supervisor, producer is his title only and has no bearing on what he does. I'd go so far as to suggest he was sent to Austin so the folks back at LA HQ didn't have to deal with him every day. He has no expertise as either a programmer or a manager. His qualifications are that he was a tester on a prefious LA SW title...and not even the lead tester. The players have got some good info from someone with an uncle at SOE. I humbly suggest Torres only has his job because he perhaps has an uncle at LA, and he's about to lose it anyway. "To provide operational project management on interactive entertainment products from design through code release by closely tracking projects to schedule and milestone goals." That is LA's idea of a producer, they have 2 positions posted on their website right now. Nothing more than an on-site supervisor at a sub-contractors office.
I look forward to SWG2 to from someone (anyone) other than SOE.
SWG has been successful IN SPITE of $OE, not because of $OE.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Originally posted by Elnator Originally posted by Fadeus Thats where I am starting to get with the AAP, however I have very close real life friends that I game with daily in it so it would be a hard transition off the AAP and EQ II.
Come to DAOC man It's WAY better than EQ2 anyway.
Played DAoC for years casually. I am a huge mythic fan. Unforteuntly Mythic has a very bland dry version of combat to me that just don't get my blood boiling. When a cleric does a large heal in camelot you get a cute little dring sound and a small shower of particles. In EQ 1 the same heal would be strong sound effects, a massive shower of particles and the health bar increasing slowly and steadily to max health bar. That gave me a feeling of power as did many aspects of EQ 1. DAoC just leaves me uninspired in combat, the specials are nice, the combat is nice, the animations are nice, but thats all I can really say about it.
I had my own guild on gaheris, guild house, crest, friends and everything else but I was just never motivated to play the game. I finally let the house go cause I was tired of paying for something that I wasn't compelled to play.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by Dis_Ordur Originally posted by Fadeus Man, how many times can you avoid answering my question? The damage is ALREADY done, they can lose NOTHING buy keeping it running. They will do what they ALWAYS do and continue with business as usual, the whining will die down and fade away and they can just let it run on its own on a small staff doing some occasional patching if they actually wanna try at this point (which they don't need too since the community has proven you can give them trash and they will still play it to be able to play a star wars MMO). The shut it down they open the wounds up all over again, prove everyone right, become more of a "laughing stock" as you put it and have that mark in this MMO history books for the rest of their exhistance. Right now they have issued a "contraversial update". You seem to think "closing down an MMO because of a contraversial update" is better business. Good thinking there... Maybe later you will actually think of an answer to my question which was: "How is closing SWG a good business decision?" So far all you have given me is a horrible business plan of an entire new investment they don't even have the right to develop right now. And you think because some players are pissed off and a developer here or there has made an off statement about them that they are a "laughing stock" of the MMO development community. I think Turbine has already earned that far more then they have and they aren't even the worst. So when you actually think up a real answer, look me up because your just flailing at this point. Fad, THIS GAME COULD MAKE BILLIONS ANNUALLY!!!!! So it would be a good business decision to shut off the servers and make a more palattable game to cash in on the players a SW MMO can have... I don't think I can explain it any clearer... SWG SHUT DOWN = PAVING WAY FOR NEW & BETTER SW MMO TO MAKE BILLIONS ANNUALLY LIKE WoW Lets see, making a mere 10mil a year versus 10 mil a month, or like WoW, hundreds of millions a month... The more you post and type Fadeus, the more it is apparent that you wouldn't know a good business plan if it bit you in the ass...
Lol, you slay me at this point man. You got nothing left to stand on, give it up.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by IcoGames Fist, DAoC is for suckers! Anywho ...If SOE/LA decide to dump SWG, I doubt the reason would be that the game wasn't profitable. As a director, if a project isn't meeting certian metrics, I may dump that project and invest in ones that are. Profitability is relative.
Ummm, I am not sure how that ties into what I said or if it was meant too? I put out alot of arguements, not making profit was never one of them. However I did give a ton of reasons why it would be bad to drop SWG from a business standpoint.
Also, you don't just drop an MMO like you would many other business ventures, it causes customer doubt in your fans and you end up like EA. So I have to say your point about that is taken, however I think its like comparing apples to oranges, SWG is no longer a project, its a maintenance based product now.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by Clattuc Elnator's analysis may not apply to SWG in its present form. First, there is no single initial investment to be recouped. (a) There has been ongoing investment into a series of costly expansions, none of which have substantially grown the subscriber base, and with the exception of JtL, none of which have sold anything like the base game. (b) There is a hefty license fee that comes out of SOE's bottom line, year in and year out. Second, there are loss events on the books. (a) The Japanese servers were shut down after an unsuccessful year, and refunds/transfers issued. (Finances aside, this represents the ultimate loss of face for any Sony unit.) (b) The Trials of Obi-Wan refund. Third, income is diluted. (a) Station Access, which (like SOE's other efforts) has not measurably increased the SWG playerbase, still results in less monthly income being credited to the SWG ledger. EQ2 is currently the biggest beneficiary. (b) The strong dollar means that Europe in general operates at a loss. Contractual, legal and logistical considerations keep the datacenter and servers operating, unlike Japan. Fourth, costs are boosted. (a) Bug-plagued releases and game changes increase the cost per player and the cost per CS call. You can lay reps off and they will after the holidays, but the remaining reps work more hours. (b) Architectural considerations mean that many human and capital costs are tied to the game's peak size, not its current size. It is nowhere near 4 times as cheap to service 62,000 players as it is to service 250,000. And there are other non-financial considerations. The inability to operate profitably in Asia, for example, and the unavailability of a console port, are heavy blows to SWG's competitive position at a company that publicly proclaims that Asia and Console are the future. Elnator's analysis works for a new, wholly-owned game title in its growth phase. I do not think it will protect SWG from retirement under present trends.
The Japanese servers where funded by and hosted by Electronic Arts, not SOE. As I have pointed out yet again, EA killed another MMO.
SWG most certainly did have an initial investment, you can't launch a product without one. The continued development is seperate from that and comes after the launch and monthlies start rolling in. If your smart you take part of the money and invest it back into the product, I have no idea how smart SOE was on this and neither do you.
As I have already said, if you think the refund for ToOW is actually going to amount to anything sizable your seriously mistaken. Most people are not going to go through the trouble of snail mailing all the inforation needed and waiting 6 weeks for a refund. Thats like saying a majority of people actually use rebates when they are offered, most people don't want the hassle.
Raise the cost per CS call? Are you serious?? I suggest you TRY a CS call, one in game, one via email, and one via phone and just how large that investment is. SOE has CS staff at some of the lowest in the industry and you have to work very hard to actually get someone to answer you in any means other then a template letter.
Station Access is making SOE MORE money in whole, not less. They are getting higher monthlies from people and drawing customers that can't refuse getting over 8 games for $22 a month. As I already said earlier, SWG has pimp value on the Station All Access Pass, they aren't going to give that up lightly and lose a Star Wars title on the pass.
I think you are taking shots in the dark on several of your statements, and his analysis was general basic data, by no means was it a definitive guide to SWG launch costs.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
You seem rather argumentative, which is not something I want to get into here. I think you may also have misread one or two of my points, but no matter. My intention was to point out that the numbers Elnator cites may not apply to SWG in its present form. I think I'll leave it at that, and let events speak for themselves rather than wasting a lot of electrons here.
The Japanese servers where funded by and hosted by Electronic Arts, not SOE. As I have pointed out yet again, EA killed another MMO. SWG most certainly did have an initial investment, you can't launch a product without one. The continued development is seperate from that and comes after the launch and monthlies start rolling in. If your smart you take part of the money and invest it back into the product, I have no idea how smart SOE was on this and neither do you. As I have already said, if you think the refund for ToOW is actually going to amount to anything sizable your seriously mistaken. Most people are not going to go through the trouble of snail mailing all the inforation needed and waiting 6 weeks for a refund. Thats like saying a majority of people actually use rebates when they are offered, most people don't want the hassle. Raise the cost per CS call? Are you serious?? I suggest you TRY a CS call, one in game, one via email, and one via phone and just how large that investment is. SOE has CS staff at some of the lowest in the industry and you have to work very hard to actually get someone to answer you in any means other then a template letter. Station Access is making SOE MORE money in whole, not less. They are getting higher monthlies from people and drawing customers that can't refuse getting over 8 games for $22 a month. As I already said earlier, SWG has pimp value on the Station All Access Pass, they aren't going to give that up lightly and lose a Star Wars title on the pass. I think you are taking shots in the dark on several of your statements, and his analysis was general basic data, by no means was it a definitive guide to SWG launch costs.
Ok, so everyone is wrong is Fadeus is ultimately right, is that what you want to hear? Either you are in a real bad mood today (hey, it happens to the best of us) or MMORPG.com has ceased in being selective with it's 'Elite Member' status...
Let me preface this by saying that I was a huge naysayer after the first CU and I did what a lot of you are doing now. I learned very quickly that it was a waste of my time. You guys have 2 choices :
1. Learn to love the NGE.
2. Play something else.
All your bitching, whining and rumouring will change NOTHING. It didn't before and it won't now. SOE is not about salving egos or making individual gamers happy. They are about money. It is my firm belief that for the most part they knew damn well the NGE would cause a mass exodus. It's called trimming the fat.
They are preparing a simpler game to appeal to a much wider market. It may not make much sense now but give it a few months and I think you will see this game make a comeback. It may not be up to WoW levels but the style of play they are introducing WILL attract customers.
The Star Wars name is one of the most marketable names on the planet. The nature of MMOs is to change. I grant you that the way SOE implemented this change was not smart or even coherent. Be assured however that there is method behind the madness. They are very obviously preparing for a console launch of some sort and BELIEVE that this will make them money.
The game was dumped in it's previous form becuase it was not bringing in the revenue they wanted. This may be a last ditch attempt, I never said it wasn't. But as last ditches go, it was a smart move. Making the classes easier and more accessible may have driven off the Elite class of player, but I need not remind you that these are the minority.
I loved the game in it's original form and I genuinely feel for those of you that put time and effort and feel slighted. It sucks! But nothing you say or do will change what is happening so get over it and move on. I mean this in the nicest possible way. It really isn't worth wasting time getting upset about it!
Originally posted by Sharkypal Let me preface this by saying that I was a huge naysayer after the first CU and I did what a lot of you are doing now. I learned very quickly that it was a waste of my time. You guys have 2 choices : 1. Learn to love the NGE. 2. Play something else. All your bitching, whining and rumouring will change NOTHING. It didn't before and it won't now. SOE is not about salving egos or making individual gamers happy. They are about money. It is my firm belief that for the most part they knew damn well the NGE would cause a mass exodus. It's called trimming the fat. They are preparing a simpler game to appeal to a much wider market. It may not make much sense now but give it a few months and I think you will see this game make a comeback. It may not be up to WoW levels but the style of play they are introducing WILL attract customers. The Star Wars name is one of the most marketable names on the planet. The nature of MMOs is to change. I grant you that the way SOE implemented this change was not smart or even coherent. Be assured however that there is method behind the madness. They are very obviously preparing for a console launch of some sort and BELIEVE that this will make them money. The game was dumped in it's previous form becuase it was not bringing in the revenue they wanted. This may be a last ditch attempt, I never said it wasn't. But as last ditches go, it was a smart move. Making the classes easier and more accessible may have driven off the Elite class of player, but I need not remind you that these are the minority. I loved the game in it's original form and I genuinely feel for those of you that put time and effort and feel slighted. It sucks! But nothing you say or do will change what is happening so get over it and move on. I mean this in the nicest possible way. It really isn't worth wasting time getting upset about it! Sincerely S
Sharky, I have moved on. I no longer play SWG or any other MMO made by SOE, but I do feel betrayed. I loved the way this game used to be.
You see a lot of other people here bitching about the way the game is now, and demanding a roll back, except those were the same people that were bitching just as loudly when game was the way they now are saying they want it. I'm not one of those. I used to defend this game, now all I can do is try to make people realize LucasArts is just as dumb and clueless as SOE.
I defended this game for over 3 years now, and the companies I've been trying to support, just made all the people I was arguing against right. So I'm sorry, after 3 of of support, you're gonna have to deal with a few months of bitterness.
Big difference, there are a LOT MORE of those whiners this time. Enough that they might actually win this one.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Originally posted by Wepps Big difference, there are a LOT MORE of those whiners this time. Enough that they might actually win this one.
Sorry mate! As much as I feel your pain, they will not win anything. As I said, this wasn't some "flash in the pan" decision. SOE are after console $$$. They could care less about anything else. Thats why I say get over it! If I thought there was even a remote chance that the collective bitching and whining had a chance I would never have made my previous post. I guess some people will NEVER learn that SOE cares not about you or what you want. If they did, they wouldn't have done this in the first place.
Originally posted by Clattuc You seem rather argumentative, which is not something I want to get into here. I think you may also have misread one or two of my points, but no matter. My intention was to point out that the numbers Elnator cites may not apply to SWG in its present form. I think I'll leave it at that, and let events speak for themselves rather than wasting a lot of electrons here.
And I dissproved several of your points. If you don't want to argue them make sure they are accurate or don't say them in the future.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Comments
Fist, DAoC is for suckers!
Anywho ...
If SOE/LA decide to dump SWG, I doubt the reason would be that the game wasn't profitable. As a director, if a project isn't meeting certian metrics, I may dump that project and invest in ones that are. Profitability is relative.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Fad, THIS GAME COULD MAKE BILLIONS ANNUALLY!!!!! So it would be a good business decision to shut off the servers and make a more palattable game to cash in on the players a SW MMO can have... I don't think I can explain it any clearer...
SWG SHUT DOWN = PAVING WAY FOR NEW & BETTER SW MMO TO MAKE BILLIONS ANNUALLY LIKE WoW
Lets see, making a mere 10mil a year versus 10 mil a month, or like WoW, hundreds of millions a month... The more you post and type Fadeus, the more it is apparent that you wouldn't know a good business plan if it bit you in the ass...
Not to nitpick.. but Smedley admitted in an interview that the CU actually gave them net losses on subscriptions. That it had turned down.
Torres said it too.
Which is why they knee-jerked out the nge.
And to add.. the bottom line of subscribers is different in this equasion because...
1. They have to split the profits
2. LA has certain expectations of success
3. They say they have 70 devs working on it.. they'll have to sack a lot of people first.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
How is it for suckers?
I am enjoying the heck out of it. It also holds the singular honor as being the only MMORPG out of numerous that I tried that actually managed to keep me out of EQ.... even when playing SWG I occasionally hopped on EQ. When I was playing DAOC for the 1.5 years I played it the first time around I didn't log back into EQ even once.
Granted with SWG I had the AAP so it was much easier to hop on EQ at will... but I never even had the urge when playing DAOC. I left the game originally only because my entire guild had moved on to Shadowbane. Now, going back and starting over on the classic servers the game is amazingly better than it was at release. If PVP isn't your bag it's not quite as good as the more PVE oriented MMO's (EQ2/WoW) but overall it's better than either of them. Since I love factional PVP DAOC is very fun for me.
As I said in a prior post here:
Thank you! SWG! For making me leave! Because if I hadn't I wouldn't have re-discovered DAOC!
For me: It's the most fun fantasy MMORPG out.
Your mileage, of course, will vary.
As to dumping a profitable game?
SOE has already proven that they don't handle things the way you do. They have Infantry, Tanarus and PlanetSide still running despite all of them having minimal player bases. People who actually play planetside have reported steady drops in server loads for months now.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Elnator's analysis may not apply to SWG in its present form.
First, there is no single initial investment to be recouped.
(a) There has been ongoing investment into a series of costly expansions, none of which have substantially grown the subscriber base, and with the exception of JtL, none of which have sold anything like the base game.
(b) There is a hefty license fee that comes out of SOE's bottom line, year in and year out.
Second, there are loss events on the books.
(a) The Japanese servers were shut down after an unsuccessful year, and refunds/transfers issued. (Finances aside, this represents the ultimate loss of face for any Sony unit.)
(b) The Trials of Obi-Wan refund.
Third, income is diluted.
(a) Station Access, which (like SOE's other efforts) has not measurably increased the SWG playerbase, still results in less monthly income being credited to the SWG ledger. EQ2 is currently the biggest beneficiary.
(b) The strong dollar means that Europe in general operates at a loss. Contractual, legal and logistical considerations keep the datacenter and servers operating, unlike Japan.
Fourth, costs are boosted.
(a) Bug-plagued releases and game changes increase the cost per player and the cost per CS call. You can lay reps off and they will after the holidays, but the remaining reps work more hours.
(b) Architectural considerations mean that many human and capital costs are tied to the game's peak size, not its current size. It is nowhere near 4 times as cheap to service 62,000 players as it is to service 250,000.
And there are other non-financial considerations. The inability to operate profitably in Asia, for example, and the unavailability of a console port, are heavy blows to SWG's competitive position at a company that publicly proclaims that Asia and Console are the future.
Elnator's analysis works for a new, wholly-owned game title in its growth phase. I do not think it will protect SWG from retirement under present trends.
I was just kidding about DAoC. ^_^
The trial package is still setting on my desktop waiting for some free time to be installed.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Dont forget the advertising costs and in-house public relations. Both are counted against SWG in the ledger.
The recent starter kit ads on GT4, MTV, Sci Fi, and a few others will cost quite a bit. The average primetime 30 second spot on a national cable channel will run about $200,000. And thats a discounted rate based on multiple spots purchased.
On average. (from my own personal observations) they've easily spent $800,000 a day on weekends. If they're smart and run spots on Tues, Wed, and Thursday (mon and friday are dead ad days), thats another $600,000-$1.2 million (2 per day). Add in the 1.6 million for weekend spots...total over just 2 weeks is little under $5 million. Double that if they go a month.
Now when the suits get together, they see -5,000,000 for advertising ....+ $20 (per kit) x the number of sold..... - product costs..... - distribution costs.....= major losses.
They would need to sell a whole lot of kits to recoup those losses.
You made me cry.
Good points Clattuc but you missed the main flaw in Elnator's pessimism that SWG won't be shut down. He assumes it's and SOE decision. It will be shut down by LA pulling the contract.
Compared to SOEs other games Sony has probably always been content with subscriber numbers and profits of SWG. Until last year LA was as well, after all, while not the biggest, SWG was one of the bigger MMORPGs and run by the biggest MMO company. Sure they knew it should have been the biggest but it wasn't all that much off the mark by comparison to the other games out there.
Then WoW came out. LA saw how big SWG really could have been, and at the same time, numbers dropped significantly as people left for WoW. Remember it wasn't until the start of this year that SWG had such a big dev team. I think LA told SOE 'Our contract is up for renewal/termination soon, do what you have to do to make the game bigger.' Either not realizing that, if SOE had the intelligence to be capable of making SWG live up to it's potential, they already would have, or blind optimism that with a fire under them to save the contract, SOE could pull out a rabbit.
So SOE tried a few things. They started off good, more frequent patches and bug fixes, faction bases for planetary control. That stopped the haemoraging to WoW that was already slowed by people discovering how much more simplistic WoW was. Losses dropped back to the slow trickle that is normal for an older MMO. LA decided to have SOE do an expansion, and advertise the game in the movie theatres. Brilliant on both counts, and this did bring in many new (note: new not additional) players. Unfortunately SOE did the CU at the same time for no apparent reason. Released it unfinished with poor communication to the veteran players and full of even more bugs and gaping design flaws than what it replaced. So they lost as many as they gained.
The clock continued to tick away towards end of contract. SOE in desperation tried another complete revamp, this time in an even less-finished state, instead of poor communication they had none, and even more bugs and flaws, not to mention the outright fraud in billing for ToOW immediately prior to announcing the Nerfed Game Experience. This time the player losses have been and continue to be apocalyptic. The contract renewal/termination date continues to tick closer. I'm sure SOE would love all their games to be as popular and profitable as WoW, who wouldn't. They haven't messed with their other titles trying to achieve that because they know they have no clue how to do it. If they thought they could, they would. They tried anyway with SWG because they go told to get the numbers up to where they should have always been, or else. They had nothing to lose.
It has been suggested that LA is more at fault than SOE. I don't by that. LA would give direction in broad strokes. 'Make it bigger like WoW', 'Make an expansion to tie in with this movie release', 'Make it possible for people to play as Jedi', 'Do these things by these dates'. SOE is the MMORPG company, it would have been left to them to decide HOW to do those things and all the other details of making/running the game. Torres is just a token LA supervisor, producer is his title only and has no bearing on what he does. I'd go so far as to suggest he was sent to Austin so the folks back at LA HQ didn't have to deal with him every day. He has no expertise as either a programmer or a manager. His qualifications are that he was a tester on a prefious LA SW title...and not even the lead tester. The players have got some good info from someone with an uncle at SOE. I humbly suggest Torres only has his job because he perhaps has an uncle at LA, and he's about to lose it anyway. "To provide operational project management on interactive entertainment products from design through code release by closely tracking projects to schedule and milestone goals." That is LA's idea of a producer, they have 2 positions posted on their website right now. Nothing more than an on-site supervisor at a sub-contractors office.
I look forward to SWG2 to from someone (anyone) other than SOE.
I've said it before, I'll say it again.
SWG has been successful IN SPITE of $OE, not because of $OE.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Come to DAOC man
It's WAY better than EQ2 anyway.
Played DAoC for years casually. I am a huge mythic fan. Unforteuntly Mythic has a very bland dry version of combat to me that just don't get my blood boiling. When a cleric does a large heal in camelot you get a cute little dring sound and a small shower of particles. In EQ 1 the same heal would be strong sound effects, a massive shower of particles and the health bar increasing slowly and steadily to max health bar. That gave me a feeling of power as did many aspects of EQ 1. DAoC just leaves me uninspired in combat, the specials are nice, the combat is nice, the animations are nice, but thats all I can really say about it.
I had my own guild on gaheris, guild house, crest, friends and everything else but I was just never motivated to play the game. I finally let the house go cause I was tired of paying for something that I wasn't compelled to play.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Lol, you slay me at this point man. You got nothing left to stand on, give it up.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Ummm, I am not sure how that ties into what I said or if it was meant too? I put out alot of arguements, not making profit was never one of them. However I did give a ton of reasons why it would be bad to drop SWG from a business standpoint.
Also, you don't just drop an MMO like you would many other business ventures, it causes customer doubt in your fans and you end up like EA. So I have to say your point about that is taken, however I think its like comparing apples to oranges, SWG is no longer a project, its a maintenance based product now.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
The Japanese servers where funded by and hosted by Electronic Arts, not SOE. As I have pointed out yet again, EA killed another MMO.
SWG most certainly did have an initial investment, you can't launch a product without one. The continued development is seperate from that and comes after the launch and monthlies start rolling in. If your smart you take part of the money and invest it back into the product, I have no idea how smart SOE was on this and neither do you.
As I have already said, if you think the refund for ToOW is actually going to amount to anything sizable your seriously mistaken. Most people are not going to go through the trouble of snail mailing all the inforation needed and waiting 6 weeks for a refund. Thats like saying a majority of people actually use rebates when they are offered, most people don't want the hassle.
Raise the cost per CS call? Are you serious?? I suggest you TRY a CS call, one in game, one via email, and one via phone and just how large that investment is. SOE has CS staff at some of the lowest in the industry and you have to work very hard to actually get someone to answer you in any means other then a template letter.
Station Access is making SOE MORE money in whole, not less. They are getting higher monthlies from people and drawing customers that can't refuse getting over 8 games for $22 a month. As I already said earlier, SWG has pimp value on the Station All Access Pass, they aren't going to give that up lightly and lose a Star Wars title on the pass.
I think you are taking shots in the dark on several of your statements, and his analysis was general basic data, by no means was it a definitive guide to SWG launch costs.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Let me preface this by saying that I was a huge naysayer after the first CU and I did what a lot of you are doing now. I learned very quickly that it was a waste of my time. You guys have 2 choices :
1. Learn to love the NGE.
2. Play something else.
All your bitching, whining and rumouring will change NOTHING. It didn't before and it won't now. SOE is not about salving egos or making individual gamers happy. They are about money. It is my firm belief that for the most part they knew damn well the NGE would cause a mass exodus. It's called trimming the fat.
They are preparing a simpler game to appeal to a much wider market. It may not make much sense now but give it a few months and I think you will see this game make a comeback. It may not be up to WoW levels but the style of play they are introducing WILL attract customers.
The Star Wars name is one of the most marketable names on the planet. The nature of MMOs is to change. I grant you that the way SOE implemented this change was not smart or even coherent. Be assured however that there is method behind the madness. They are very obviously preparing for a console launch of some sort and BELIEVE that this will make them money.
The game was dumped in it's previous form becuase it was not bringing in the revenue they wanted. This may be a last ditch attempt, I never said it wasn't. But as last ditches go, it was a smart move. Making the classes easier and more accessible may have driven off the Elite class of player, but I need not remind you that these are the minority.
I loved the game in it's original form and I genuinely feel for those of you that put time and effort and feel slighted. It sucks! But nothing you say or do will change what is happening so get over it and move on. I mean this in the nicest possible way. It really isn't worth wasting time getting upset about it!
Sincerely
S
Sharky,
I have moved on. I no longer play SWG or any other MMO made by SOE, but I do feel betrayed. I loved the way this game used to be.
You see a lot of other people here bitching about the way the game is now, and demanding a roll back, except those were the same people that were bitching just as loudly when game was the way they now are saying they want it. I'm not one of those. I used to defend this game, now all I can do is try to make people realize LucasArts is just as dumb and clueless as SOE.
I defended this game for over 3 years now, and the companies I've been trying to support, just made all the people I was arguing against right. So I'm sorry, after 3 of of support, you're gonna have to deal with a few months of bitterness.
Big difference, there are a LOT MORE of those whiners this time. Enough that they might actually win this one.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
And I dissproved several of your points. If you don't want to argue them make sure they are accurate or don't say them in the future.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World