MMORPG.COM News: Debate: Instancing

Dana

Garrett Fuller and Frank Mignone filed their second weekly debate here today. This week they duo discuss instancing PvE content and how it impacts MMORPG communities. We hope you read their article, join the discussion and vote in the new poll.

In DAoC, the Midgard realm where I played really carried with it a sense of unity. Dragon raids were open to all, PvP groups took you no matter your guild, and Darkness Falls allowed players to clear dungeons together. In WarCraft, I only know my guildmates on the Horde side. Luckily, I made friends with a few other guilds through PvP. Other than that the realms of Horde and Alliance remain separated into their respective player guilds with no joint efforts to further the realm as a whole. High-end raid guilds become enclosed and elite without doing anything to support their realms. Instances breed this type of mentality. There is no open world danger in WarCraft. MMO means massive multiplayer online. Instances take the "MM" out of "MMO". 5-40 man raids (both PvE and BGs) can not compare to the excitement of interacting with literally hundreds or thousands of players at the same time. Instances are like the YMCA. Get kids off the streets into safe controlled activities so they can't get in trouble or cause trouble in their communities. It’s a great concept for a real world community, but death to an online community.

You can read the article here.

Dana

To go with the debate, here is your poll!

MasterchiefM

Instancing in most game just makes it more boring, cause the only reason they have them in WoW is to get better gear and more gold, and the high lvl guilds just dont let anyone in anymore.

rwyan

I've never really liked instancing as it developers are relying on it more and more.  I don't think I've seen developers truly take advantage of the power that potentially lies in the use of it.  Turbine is close because the quests in DDO are more interactive and require more cooperation then that in other MMOs.  Unless instancing is used for cinematic or interactive gameplay sequences, I feel that its nothing more than a community breaker.

ppeourpg

I don't really enjoy instances because, from the WoW experience, it seems that you must be in a guild to do an instance, and most guilds that are instancing don't want to let outside/random people join because they may take the loot.

I think instances just break up the entire community into small guild groups that just venture on their own. A lot of the high end content in WoW require you to be in raids and instances, thus kinda forcing you to join a good guild whether they are your play style or not.

One thing that I noted where a lot of random people joined to gether was when horde would attack a town and everyone in that town on alliance would join forces to fight the enemy, and that's not an instance.

StealthKill

Ok My stance. As a vet of EQ1, EQ2, UO, DAOC, AO, WOW, EVE. Name it chances are I've played it. But back onto Topic. From my personal experience i would have to say Instancing in a VERY minimal Fasion is a help to a Community. For example, Anarchy Online did a great job with there form of Instancing. Individual Short gorup instances while at the same time not making the bonuses for doing said missions to great to totally discourage outdoor camping. i can name about 50 different camp spots in AO that were the same great XP as a Mission. (all pre Shadowlands of course.) And EQ1 there is a PRIME Example of the MAJOR success of having Absolutely ZERO Instancing within the game i cannot stress how popular EQ1 was; beyond mindboggling. EQ2 is still in its infancy much like EQ1 did in its infancy not many subscribers but the people that do are Die hard fans and willing to stick through the low amount of end game for a while while expantions come out like in EQ1 before hand pre Velious there was nothing to do end game besides the same what 4-5 planes? just like EQ2 not much end game but potential and yet again EQ2 absolutely no instancing. And again agreed Daoc is a brilliant example of a great community totally unquestionable its overall success with a 0 Instance PVE environment.. yes there was some PVP Instancing but eve the PVP instancing impacted the overall game world to a MAJOR degree. and UO there was no rules except Dont exploit and dont have a dirty mouth everything else goes. now WOW.. the only appeal of wow is its Simplicity for the moronic Masses there is no DEPTH to WOW leveling isnt fun its arduous and annoying. getting fat l00t is a matter of hoping you dont have a ninja looter in your group and the end game is so bland and boring example 1: Playing priest end game in WOW is like grinding my teeth against a motorized sander for 5 hours.. Dont belive me how doe sPressing the same button about 600,000 times in a matter of 5 hours sound to you.. not fun right? thats end game for a priest Example 2: End game as a Main Tank. Your life consists of running up and using Rend... and some more Rend... and a little bit more of the Rend and when its almost dead HUH you Execute.. not fun no strategy no difficulty in the game due to the large amount of instancing involved in the game... Whew im done have a good one

ProfessorL

Instancing is a useful technique, but should not be overused. If a game wants to include instances, the open world content needs to be equal to or greater than that of the instance. I enjoy WoW instances, but I would rather have the option of joining a BG instance or getting a raid together to go after an enemy town in the open world. The open world rewards should be greater than those of a controlled environment, as it is more challenging to manage a large raid on a player controlled territory than it is to raid a pre-scripted NPC dungeon.

Item drops would be the big issue. Nothing was more irritating, in games like EQ, then waiting for rare spawns for hours(sometimes days) out in the open with other players waiting for the same thing. The item issue is a big one, that instancing acts as a quick fix for. Until developers come up with better ways to spread the best gear throughout the game, without the use mob drops, then instancing is an attractive solution over the early EQ approach.

RemyVorender

There should be a balance (say 90% open, 10% instanced), saving instancing for only certain special quests or encounters...for example, getting taken prisoner by a band of orcs and having to escape from their village or dungeon.

Instancing and voicechat have killed the MMO community. I cannot for the life of me figure out why people think that competing for spawns with other players is a bad thing. That's one of the things that makes MMOs great. There has to be frustration in order to enjoy victory...if it's all victory, who freaking cares? Yay!....I won....again....*yawn*.

I know right off the bat that I am not going to stick around in an MMO if I don't get royally pissed off while playing now and again. It's all part of the experience....all part of the competition! Competition...remember that word? MMOs used to have loads of it back in the day.

Instancing is a crutch used by game Devs because of flaws in their world flow. They just pass it off as "helping you make sure no one else ruins your fun"....please.

There are plenty of other ways to deal with spawn camping. Look at what Vanguard is doing for example. They give 1 particular group a quest that has triggers throughout an OPEN WORLD that only they can set off, causing a series of spawns and sequences.

That's just one way. What about making named mobs spawn completely randomly throughout a certain area? Wow...that would be hard too.

 

GmrLeon

Instancing isn't bad depending on how you use it. If it's like Guild Wars amount of instancing in a MMO where you can pk anywhere it's a horrid thing to deal with. Also,I was kind of surprised they didn't mention Guild Wars in their discussion,but I guess it's because it is a CORPG.

Myrdek

On a producer standpoint it wouldn't be lucrative to dismiss instanced areas from a game because a good amount of players prefer to be alone in a dungeon a lot of the time. You don't see these people in forums so people assume their not there but trust me, im one of them.

Of course, if a game as too much instance then there won't be any community to speak of and all games need to have a strong community in order to survive in the long term. Even for asocial players like me, we all like trading and doing large quests every once in a while

A game without instance would turn off a good amount of player because of dungeon camping. I can't count the number of times I quit a game because I was sick of having to log on at 1 am just to be able to have a dungeon by myself. Asheron's Call, UO are the good first exemples of this.

Instanced areas also create an opportunity for creators to make individual or group quests that are unique to them, create a unique dungeon with an infinite possibility of goals and rewards. Just look at what Vanguard of Heroes wants to do with this. They can make incredible concepts that would eventually become vital for a good mmorpg.

The trick is to be able to create a balance between the 2. The outdoor areas need to be large enough, with enough dungeons and quests so that you don't have to camp all the time, and the rewards for playing in instanced areas need to be equal. The 2 modes of play need to be complete enough so that if you don't want to play with players you don't feel you have to, and if you don't want to play alone it's easy to join others in outdoor areas without bugging them.

Oh and remyburke, some people play games for the adrenaline rush, and others to relax from real life. You should respect both mode of play as not everyone is the same

smigow

i have only played 2 mmorpgs, star wars galaxies(pre cu, quit when cu came) and guild wars. and i totally agree with garrett fuller, instancing takes away the mm from the o. its good in some cases, for example the corvette missions in swg. but playing the whole game in instances like guild wars is just boring and no fun. i barley even played guild wars because of this. i also was originally going to play pirates of the burning sea, but the whol navigation zone and instancing fights just turns me off, thus i came to the decision to play vamguardsoh, which sounds amazing.

Zorgo

I believe instances create a more complete game.

I'll try to approach this from a unique perspective. Many have stated that instancing takes the 'mm' out of mmorpgs...but I say this: removing instances removes part of the 'rp' of and mmorpg. Dungeons and Dragons and Lord of the Rings I believe can be rightly called the godfathers for roleplaying. Both of those cults emphasize your band, party or fellowship against the world. I think an essential element to roleplaying is the feeling that a small band of adventurers are pitted against massive dungeons/struggles. Instancing provides this element of roleplaying. MM dungeons take it away. Remember in LotR, when the fellowship is deep within the mines of Moria, pitted against dark and ancient evils, and now imagine in the middle of that tense scene some random Leeroy Jenkins running by, training the fellowship and they all died. In this scenario, the quest for 'mm' destroys the 'rp'.  For a complete mmorpg, I think you have to have instancing to cater to an essential element of roleplaying.

Another point was made that in Warcraft, you don't get to know anyone on the opposite faction. Well, duh. Again it's an mmoRPg. Orcs and Humans aren't suppose to get along. In EQ, it always bothered me from a rp standpoint that you factions mattered very little in grouping. There again, MM was stressed for the detriment of the RP.

Not to say you can eliminate one without the other. I don't play GW cuz they went over the top with instancing. But I quit EQ1 cuz they didn't do enough. I think a complete game should have a mix.

 

Elandrial

i dont think its the instance that are the problem. eq had instance too and it didnt have the problems of wow. wow problem is pure and simple GREED of the guild officers. they want to control who gets the drops that they dont want outsiders. you dont know how many itmes i saw the same people gets the good gear over and over. my last guild told me i had to choose which lvl 60 i wanted to get drops,yet officers alts got drops.
its not the instances its the mentality of the game.

StealthKill

If you want to relax play EVE Mate great game for relaxation im playing it right now as a matter of fact

ladyisha

  Well, time to add my two cents worth, I suppose.  I play DAoC, and several of my toons are *not* in guilds, and most of the 'newbie' guilds don't exactly help a lot with fights or things.  Were it not for instances, my 50 on Pendragon would never have gotten there.  I got her there, all by myself, no powerleveling or anything.  (Instanced and non-instanced combat)

Yes, I will admit I was lonely at times, but...since most, if not all guilds on DAoC are elitist and cliquish, even then it is hard to get anything done.  I have toons still waiting on ML steps because their guilds are too busy to get things going.   Asking in Alliance channels gets you nowhere either.

Instances do take away from the game somewhat, but they give people who simply are too new to the game, or who aren't in guilds, or well...don't have friends in the game, the chance to accomplish something on their own, and feel like they really earned every single XP point.

There are many places in the game I have yet to explore.  But without a good guild, or group, it simply isn't going to happen.  So, I do instances, it's fun, and if I die, I have no one to blame but myself.  I say leave the instances alone.  For some of us, they're more fun than sitting all night waiting for nothing from fellow players.

dorobu

If you want to play in complete instancing, why not just save your money and play NWN over the internet with no monthly fee or over a LAN? I really don't get the whole instancing thing, unless you're not charging monthly fees like Guild Wars. Instancing works fine for them, because you're not paying to play alone. I for one was totally happy to see Vanguard using no instances, but then again, I sort of enjoyed the racing in EQ1

thanos

I'm split on this. While I am semi for dungeon instancing, like in WoW, I am also against it at the same time. It really did make things "if you aren't in a raid guild, you'll never raid" and that wasn't fun, which lead to me quitting. But at the same time, I 100% HATE instancing like in say Guild Wars. At first, it sounded like the perfect idea. I remember in FFXI trying to kill something was impossible because you had a million people going after the same mobs. But when you actually try GW, you see, its no longer a mmo, its a single player online game. And that was not fun, not at all.

crossmr

So lets see...
the RP was never really put into MMORPGs to start with. Yes you can roleplay, as much as you can roleplay in say Space Invaders. Roleplay to your heart's content it won't do anything actually effect the world so the game doesn't really incorporate it.
That leave's us with MMOG.
We now take out MM because everything is instanced, The world is pointlessly persistent and really no different than firing up Diablo.

That leaves us with OG.

How long before one of those go missing? Reports put gold farmers as high percentages of the pops, then there are those who don't play instead they use those gold farmers to get whatever they want, or people who power-level, etc Its basically a shiny system for stroking their virtual...ego.

The point? Game's are a long way off from being anything "good" or even reflective of the genre they cling to in hopes that it gives them some credibility. Instancing is only one in a pile of problems.

delateur

This is a debate that is very near and dear to my heart. I am all for instancing, and think it is truly the next evolution in online gaming. Like anything else, it can be implemented well, or poorly. My main gripe with online games is that they focus too much on the community, a community, by and large, that you would prefer never to meet, much less group with. MMOGs have no barrier to entry, and since many people like games for varying reasons, it will draw a crowd of people that, while fully qualified to enjoy the game in their own way, are complete garbage at anything with a social element. I want my multiplayer experience to never force me into situations like the above posters describe. Join a guild so I can have the best items in the game? Forget it. Force me to compete with others for mobs to create a "true" sense of victory because I want to delude myself that this game is really life or death and not about simple manners and trying to create an enjoyable experience for all, since we're all paying the same amount to play this game? Yeah, sounds fun... NOT! No, give me instances, give me ALL instances, and make them scale, such that the rewards and the fun scale based on finding a group. Or better yet, make the content separate, and make it such that grouping gives compelling, but not balance-breaking, awards, so that finding friends to team with is worth it, not only socially, but materially in-game. Some people play MMOGs to compete against others, but I'm not one of them. I enjoy games that have rich stories, that pit me against NPCs that I truly want to take down. So far, City of Heroes and City of Villains do that the best. They allow any type of player to enjoy whatever kind of gameplay experience they want. Because of this, I can socialize because I WANT to, not because I MUST. This is the best way to encourage community, by making it 100% optional, and thus a true choice by each gamer.

PlanetNiles

I don't agree fully with either view point. Used moderately Instancing can enhance my gaming experience but overused it detracts from it. However it's another case of YMMV and I know many who prefer Instancing.

TallonX

I think that FFXI does a really good job w/ instancing. Very little, but when you are forced to instance I.e BCNM, or Dynamis, it has a story behind it, and a reason why it is instanced. Games like Wow however, you walk into a cave, and POP no one can come in w/ you... What a community! lol

crossmr

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Originally posted by delateur
This is a debate that is very near and dear to my heart. I am all for instancing, and think it is truly the next evolution in online gaming. Like anything else, it can be implemented well, or poorly. My main gripe with online games is that they focus too much on the community, a community, by and large, that you would prefer never to meet, much less group with. MMOGs have no barrier to entry, and since many people like games for varying reasons, it will draw a crowd of people that, while fully qualified to enjoy the game in their own way, are complete garbage at anything with a social element. I want my multiplayer experience to never force me into situations like the above posters describe. Join a guild so I can have the best items in the game? Forget it. Force me to compete with others for mobs to create a "true" sense of victory because I want to delude myself that this game is really life or death and not about simple manners and trying to create an enjoyable experience for all, since we're all paying the same amount to play this game? Yeah, sounds fun... NOT! No, give me instances, give me ALL instances, and make them scale, such that the rewards and the fun scale based on finding a group. Or better yet, make the content separate, and make it such that grouping gives compelling, but not balance-breaking, awards, so that finding friends to team with is worth it, not only socially, but materially in-game. Some people play MMOGs to compete against others, but I'm not one of them. I enjoy games that have rich stories, that pit me against NPCs that I truly want to take down. So far, City of Heroes and City of Villains do that the best. They allow any type of player to enjoy whatever kind of gameplay experience they want. Because of this, I can socialize because I WANT to, not because I MUST. This is the best way to encourage community, by making it 100% optional, and thus a true choice by each gamer.

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Then why play MMORPGs? The point of the Massively-Multiplayer Online game is to interact with others. If you don't want to interact with others, go plack dot hack, or Diablo 2, its essentially the same game. That's like complaining you hate how winning eleven forces you to play soccer because you really want to play football.

Twitchious

Well this is just my thought... I enjoy both free interaction and instancing... I think when traveling the world it should be open to all. Though, I do like the instancing of entering a dungeon / cave / abandoned town / ect. and feeling alone with my group. I hate to say how many times my game has been ruined by someone in those places that come running by me shouting "TRAIN" or hunting something for a quest only to get there and see some twinked out guild that has decieded to take turns killing it for loot. Lets face it, it just really does not make sense for these places to have that many adventurers in it. I love a great community and meeting new people. Hence why I like towns / world travel / ect. to be open to ALL players. Anyways that just my thought... Take care, and happy gaming.

Dhaeman

Instanced content itself is not necessarily bad. It can be fun to only to contend with creatures and bosses and it builds a sense of camaraderie between fellow guildmates and partners. The problem is that it changes the scope from a MMORPG to a MORPG, leaving out the "massive" interaction. So instead of designing content to suit massive interactions from the playerbase (such as conquerable realms in DAoC), developers produce content based on providing an enjoyable scripted experience for the players. The more a game allows players to produce their own content and affect the world on a permanent basis, the more immersive and massive the game feels. Instances by their very nature take away from this feeling and because of, don't belong in MMORPGs.

Razephon

Well, I'm sort of unbiased to each. I prefer minimal instancing but realise that it presents various problems. Chaos being the main one.

I really think WoW had it good Pre-Battlegrounds. PvP was awesome in Hillsbrad Foothills Zergs. Sure it got repetitive, but it was fun while it lasted. Also, people used to raid towns. That was the best experience ever. They should have continue'd to push that, provide more incentive for it. Then people got all whiney and were complaining about getting ganked. The town raiding concept was pure genius.

Also, what about outdoor raid bosses? WoW did that pretty well too. Although with open content like that, come the odd issues of people tagging a boss and so on.

I believe what a lot of people are complaining about is that without a guild, you might aswell say bye bye to raid content. So who can you really blame? The Player or the Guilds?

Guilds have been in existence since almost the beginning of MMORPGs. They are the only (at least that we've seen) way of organised large scale combat. If your a guild-less player, I fail to see how you expect to gather a large number of people.

I believe the best solution is to make a game like how WoW was Pre-Battlegrounds and provide incentives for raiding towns.

As for PvE, well doing postman/kill x mob quests are over done methods for questing. Thats why we have instanced dungeons...which are also over done now! But if you think about it, what else do fantasy genre stories consist of in terms of combat in a game environment?

Massive Battles (PvP), Dungeons (PvE), Duels (PvP), Monster Encounters (PvE). Thats it really!

EDIT: Everything gets repetitive if done long enough. What MMMORPG's need to provide players with are alternatives to combat. Combat is only one aspect. People can easily get bored of it. Thats why games have things like Crafting and other Professions. These need to be worked on more now.

angerr

i prefer little or no instancing, it does take away from the community and the feel of a seamless world IMO. but I'm not against a little instancing either in certain situations, but when you get to the point where you are "farming" instances...it starts to damage the community.

like in wow for example, after lvl 60 what do you do? you farm instances of some sort. the only time you are ever seeing the actual world is when briefly traveling to another instance.

weather it be battlegrounds, pve grouping, or pve raids it is all instances at lvl 60....and IMHO a huge reason people complain about wow's end game.

but in this case....to each his own, some people are going to like instances and some people wont. for those people that don't, I'm sure you are well aware of vanguard being released this year!

and for those of you that do like instancing there are plenty of games being released and that are already released with this feature, so everyone is happy in this regard i suppose.