Because the genre has evolved (for better AND worse) and diversified, it would be great if those who run this site took the innovative first step to reclassify/classify with much greater distinction the games it promotes.
Doing so would also make good business sense because it would allow for selective marketing of products to those interested. Some simple examples that could be paired together to represent a code that you can recognize simply by clicking on a game list:
(L)evels vs. (S)kill-driven
(N)on-(P)ersistent vs. (P)ersistent
...and so on. Pve, PvP, RvR, Death Penalty y/n, PD y/n, subscription y/n....there are a whole SLEW of ways to categorize these games so that selective gamers can go find what they want and make this site more powerful.
I don't know how to get this suggestion to the higher ups at mmorpg.com so maybe someone could help or point the way. Just a thought.
Permadeath and environmental challenges are the next great step in the evolution of MMORPGs. Only through true adversity will one feel accomplished. Only in truly knowing you can die will true adversity present itself." __________________________________
That is a great idea. I love it. I second the motion. Truth in advertising. No more misnomers. Guildwars is what it is. Its not a MMORPG. ANyway just wanted to let you know I agree with the quote above.
However, I take it to the extreme, I simply dont play Instanced Mmo's... they ruined MMO's in my mind, and untill a company clues in and realizes that instancing is against everything that is a MMO.. I will not be playing their game that they like to call an MMO.. this goes strait to games like Guild Wars or DDO, you are a desgrace to the MMO name, you arnt mmo's... you are online rpg's with fancy lobbys.
What the hell is this, "it's good for pve, but not for pvp," crap... it is bad for both, it ruins both, it kills both completely, there is no way around it, it is pointless, it is unrealistic, it is stupid.. it makes no sence what so ever to do this, other then to make it easier on the devs.
When you go to a dungeon, that is the dungeon, there aint 20 different versions of that dungeon, that is stupid.. this is a Massively Multiplayer Game, when you go into a dungeon, that dungeon should be part of the main world, not a seperate zone that has no effect on the overall game.. it is just some side zone where you can get items from. How the hell does that make sence?
Instances destroy Pve because it destroys the unique factor in items, sure people can "grief" you or KS your uber mob that you have been camping for a few hours, but making a instance with 20 different versions of that elite mob is not what devs should be doing. Devs should be lowering the spawn time, making items drop easier or just actually make the game unique and not have the same mob spawn in the same spot. Every unique named mob should be unique, when it dies, it should be gone, it should not be some treasure chest that people can get that uber BP from.
And instancing in Pvp is truely retarded (WoW) no reason for me to debate that, that is obvious.
In my mind, we are going backwards.. we had the original EQ and UO then from there on a few games like Daoc have proved themselves, but eventually killed themselves with Instancing... and now, we feal the effects.
Originally posted by StealthKill Ok My stance. As a vet of EQ1, EQ2, UO, DAOC, AO, WOW, EVE. Name it chances are I've played it. But back onto Topic. From my personal experience i would have to say Instancing in a VERY minimal Fasion is a help to a Community. For example, Anarchy Online did a great job with there form of Instancing. Individual Short gorup instances while at the same time not making the bonuses for doing said missions to great to totally discourage outdoor camping. i can name about 50 different camp spots in AO that were the same great XP as a Mission. (all pre Shadowlands of course.) And EQ1 there is a PRIME Example of the MAJOR success of having Absolutely ZERO Instancing within the game i cannot stress how popular EQ1 was; beyond mindboggling. EQ2 is still in its infancy much like EQ1 did in its infancy not many subscribers but the people that do are Die hard fans and willing to stick through the low amount of end game for a while while expantions come out like in EQ1 before hand pre Velious there was nothing to do end game besides the same what 4-5 planes? just like EQ2 not much end game but potential and yet again EQ2 absolutely no instancing. And again agreed Daoc is a brilliant example of a great community totally unquestionable its overall success with a 0 Instance PVE environment.. yes there was some PVP Instancing but eve the PVP instancing impacted the overall game world to a MAJOR degree. and UO there was no rules except Dont exploit and dont have a dirty mouth everything else goes. now WOW.. the only appeal of wow is its Simplicity for the moronic Masses there is no DEPTH to WOW leveling isnt fun its arduous and annoying. getting fat l00t is a matter of hoping you dont have a ninja looter in your group and the end game is so bland and boring example 1: Playing priest end game in WOW is like grinding my teeth against a motorized sander for 5 hours.. Dont belive me how doe sPressing the same button about 600,000 times in a matter of 5 hours sound to you.. not fun right? thats end game for a priest Example 2: End game as a Main Tank. Your life consists of running up and using Rend... and some more Rend... and a little bit more of the Rend and when its almost dead HUH you Execute.. not fun no strategy no difficulty in the game due to the large amount of instancing involved in the game... Whew im done have a good one
It just makes me happy to prove people are full of crap. You aren't a vet of WoW, so I'm going to assume you lied about 90% of those other games. 1. I'm assuming for priest you meant flash heal? What a crappy priest? How about removing curses, and throwing dots, and making sure their party can conserve mana? 2. Main tanks spam rend and execute? Those are the only two skills a main tank will NEVER use. Taunt, Heroic Strike, Sunder Armor, Mocking Blow, Challenging Shout, all of those increase hate, and aren't just 2 skills.
Now I'll agree, end game WoW is boring and repetitive.. just back your points up with more conclusive evidence. Plus, the DAoC RvR felt pretty instance-y to me.
I'm sorry but have those that are bleeting about how WoWs instances ruin the game by restricting player interaction actually have played WoW before?
During the many months that I played WoW I spent very little overall time in Instances. WoW has a extremely large Open World with hundreds of quests to complete. If you like the idea of spawn camping and ganking those legimately trying to complete a certain quest, then you were able to (on PvP servers). However in the interest of balance and actually given depth to the RPG part of MMORPG they have created several scripted areas for people to become immersed in. Instances were created so that MMORPGs could give players a short (not including endgame instances) unbreakable storyline, where a small party fights through and defeats some Boss, or rescues some person. Allowing such a scripted quest to be accesible to the open world would make the whole point of highly scripting it in the first place useless and turn it into a grind (or suicide run if high-lvl PvPers camped the Boss making completion impossible).
Instances were created so that everyone would be happy with the game. If you don't like Instances, largely avoid them, there is plenty of Open World content to enjoy.
Oh and about Instanced PvP? That was incorporated to allow those on PvE servers to still wet their whistle once in awhile to fight in a scripted War environment. Yes Instanced PvP on a PvP server is useless and can ruin the game if people devote themselves to it, but the concept was added to the game accross the board rather than trying to create two entirely seperate games.
And actually when I think about it, normal instances also give players on PvP servers a time out during a particular quest. It would be quite refreshing for them to be able to relax and concentrate on the quest for a time.
Instances are in MMORPGs in order to satisfy all types of people. Trying to argue whether they detract or add to the game is a waste of time because they were originally intended as a balancing issue so PvP'ers and PvE'ers wouldn't HAVE to argue about what is better... they'd both get exactly what they want to out of the game.
WoW is not a fluidly changing realm based on players actions, therefore Instances have no negetive impact on the game. As far as I'm concerned those that complain about Instances are usually PvP'ers who a bleeting over the fact that there is somebody in there they cannot PWN and ruin their evening of gameplay fun.
I will however agree that certain games are too heavily Instanced which ruins the game. DDO sounds like it needed a hell of alot more Open World content. Hell even Guild Wars which was created on the backs of Instances has many different MMO towns and meeting points across the face of the land.
Oh and one bit I missed about people complaining how hard it can be to get a group together to tackle an instance without being in a Guild. Excuse me? Although I was in Guild I spent most of my Instancing hours with random players and often had a great time as although your were strangers, you are all united for a common goal. Instances in WoW don't break apart the community, they enhance it by making it necessary to join with others.
Ok well thats more than my $0.02 worth. Thanks for reading
I am surprised to see the poll with the "it hurts" a mmorpg winning! I don't see how everyone is coming up with this point of view. Most games out today have a good 80% plus wide open content so how can an instanced area ruin a game? Well to me it can't. To me helps the game if for no other reason that it keeps me away from all the jerks who play these games.
Instanced areas were created to combat all the millions of total jerks and others hiding behind a keyboard who really don't care about anyone but themselves. In a perfect world where everyone is kind to each other instanced areas would of never been created.
I remember back in my Everquest days. My first real group into Lower Guk and I was so pumped to finally be able to hit the big time (pre expansions of course). The very first thing the group leader did when we all zone in was: /ooc Camp check please! We ended up leaving because everything was camped. That was also the day I decided not to recognize camps anymore (so ya I guess I'm part of the reason instanced areas was created, too) and took advantage of the one good thing Verant had going and that was the "play nice" rule. I was as nice as I could be when I did it and ya I made alot of people mad and alot of GMs had to step in like we were in grade school, but I was able to get the awesome loot just like everyone else who didn't have a job was able to do.
So for me instanced zones are a god send. No more making enemies because I wanna play what I pay for as well - no more zerk jerks running past me after I've cleared a path. No fuss, no hassle. No more children no more behind holes to ruin my game. Here is an example - its a debate forum but click back to page 8 of the posts and look for sublingual's post. People like this are the #1 reason instanced areas are here to stay. I mean sheesh he can't even debate without flaming so imagine how he would be in a non instanced dungeon right as you and your group werwe about to hit the boss room and he comes wizzing by. Think he will say, "Oh sorry guys - didn't realize you were heading to the boss. I'll let you guys have it and take the next spawn" Yeah right I see that happening.
I honestly feel the main reason people don't like instanced areas is because it limits the amount of people who will see the uber gear they have. We play mmorpgs for bragging rights - so we can show off to the world a new look or a new found set of armor or maybe a glowing or flamin weapon no one else has. And getting these items in an instanced zone take away nothing from that.
Even if the percentages are 80% open area and 20% instanced, it doesn't indicate what quality of content is placed within each area. There might be a huge desert with very little to do in it, and 1 instanced dungeon in the desert, guess where people are going to go, especially if you put the best gear inside them. In my opinion, Instances do solve many issues that many people have highlighted, but that doesn't mean there aren't other methods and means to solving the same issues. We are NOT talking about a single solution problem here people.
I think instances detract from the community because it disappears, literally. In WoW you can be in a zone populated by 100s of people, and yet see 3 people walking around. Everyone else is locked away in instances, and what do they do when they finish? Hand in Quest then hearth! If i'm playing a game that is supposed to be multiplayer on a massive scale then correct me if i'm wrong, but shouldn't that mean that i should see and be able to (even if i don't choose to) interact with lots of other players.
Yes, there are problems to having lots of players compete over the same dungeons, but there are also benefits. At least companies like Sigil are prepared to investigate other solutions rather than just accpeting some kind of inevitability, which in the end only succeeds in stifling creativity and imagination. It is simply flawed to say that you MUST have instances because of [insert list of problems here] without considering the possibility that increased game tech might allow for solutions to those problems that no one had thought of before. The industry needs brave souls who don't rely on the easy way out, and instances are definately the easy way out!
Do instances hurt MMO's? How they are currently being used, YES!
Sigil might not get it right, but at least they're trying.
Oh, and Valorus, instances don't stop the jerks, they just limit them a bit. At the same time though, they also limit the nice people as well, making it harder to just simply stop by and help. I love that feeling, especially when i played a healer class, of coming in to save someone's life just when they were about to get owned.
What instances allow (which hasnt been realized by most games) is for there to be stories ABOUT the character. They also allow dynamic content that tells a story, rather than just.. the frenzied ghoul room.. or the jail in plane of law. The difference between instanced and non-instanced content is the difference between a bar and a bowling alley. If you go to a bar, you are going with the intention of socializing. Bars succeed because they are able to attract a stable clientele who know their friends will be there and that the people there will be the kind of people they like. Bowling alleys are where you go with your friends, or perhaps alone with the intention of making new friends, or just knocking down some pins by yourself. I'm a bowling alley person. I like MMORPGs because, by and large, they are much better designed with more play options than a single player game. And I like having other people around. I like helping people that are stuck or less experienced. Sometimes I like talking to people in game, or grouping with people. And sometimes I just want to knock down some pins by myself. I laugh at the argument that instances hurt community. If you are a joiner and a herd animal, you'll join a guild and do stuff with your guild. If you are more of a loner, then you will make a few friends, and do stuff with your friends. Or play with pick-up groups. I played EQ and there were instances in EQ. And they sucked. They were just more of the same, only you got credit towards leet items. The same 'community' arguments have been used to argue against soloable content. And I have learned to be leery of games who try and force 'community' down my throat.
Instancing is a blessing, as long as it is to make CONTENT and challenge accessible to all players.
"Open" MMOs hiding behind the artificial competition between players rather than putting content are making a mistake, a long term mistake.
As far as I am concerned, everything should be "open", yet instancable upon a zoning. Trigger named through quests, accomplishments or whatever, not a random spawn that 985395485 players are trying to camp.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by quix0te And I have learned to be leery of games who try and force 'community' down my throat.
They shouldn't force community down your throat (agreed) but they also shouldn't limit or block it. Instances are a block/limit to community because they reduce drastically the number of people available for you to interact with, making the virutal world, and therefore the community within it, less alive and vibrant.
Devs do not and can not create community, players do that. The devs job is to give the players the tools to communicate with, and then let them do their thing. CCP and EVE Online are a good example of this type of community building.
They shouldn't force community down your throat (agreed) but they also shouldn't limit or block it. Instances are a block/limit to community because they reduce drastically the number of people available for you to interact with, making the virutal world, and therefore the community within it, less alive and vibrant.
Devs do not and can not create community, players do that. The devs job is to give the players the tools to communicate with, and then let them do their thing. CCP and EVE Online are a good example of this type of community building.
EvE doesn't need Instances for one simple reason that all other MMORPGs don't have, near unlimited empty 3D space. Player interaction is also vastly reduced due to warping. You cannot randomly come across somebody in space, it will always be a station, gate, field, or they are specifically hunting you in a Safespot. Because of this it makes it very easy for them to have quests that nobody else will ever come across except you... they just place it in some random spot in space that only you have the co-ords to warp to. It is entirely impracticle for other MMORPGs to have anything even approaching this because you CAN have random encounters running across the country-side, and therefore could quite easily have somebody stumble across you, and your quest, and gack you just because they were bored. Also to even come close to a comparison with EvE, all quests would be randomly located in a huge desert, and quest monsters only pop up when you get close. EvE by its very nature of being in space makes Instancing unneeded. Spawn camping (except for their complexes) is impossible.
I totally disagree with you statement that Instances dramatically reduce the number of people available to interact with. You're assuming that each Instance is simultaneously hosting hundreds of players. For one, in WoW, each Instance isn't playing host to innumerous people. Stand near an Instance sometime and watch how many parties go by in an hour. Then take into account how long it takes them to finish and come back out again. Granted once multiplied across all Instances is a sizable figure, but still barely a drop in the ocean when compared to the total number of players online at any one time.
Your argument is akin to saying I walk into a nightclub of a mythical figure of 300. Because they have private booths, 20 people are in their own little world apart from everyone else. All of a sudden I can only interact with 280 people if I wished to... does this really detract from the social element of the nightclub or the enjoyment I could have? Would it really make a difference if there were no private booths and those 20 people were socialising as well? Hell no. It only takes away their right to seek temporary solitude in an enjoyable atmosphere if they so wish it with their friends.
Instances have a place in MMORPGs and I believe will be here to stay, whether you agree with them or not.
instancing is the future want proof that "carebares" are what make up a good majority of MMO's
TOP 3 RATED GAMES at least for mmorpg.com are as follows
#1 eve-online has instancing #2 guild wars has instancing #3 WoW has instancing
INSTANCING IS THE FUTURE AND ALL YOU KNOW IT STOP WHINING
Is there an MMO that out there that isn't affected by Xao Ping Wang and their money grubbing macro bots? http://wow.stratics.com/content/features/editorials/mf/ Just say no to ingame money/mob farming.... the site says it all
I think that it is the worst thing done to mmorpgs socially since tells were put into them. I mean tells are like having telepathy. You can talk to who you want and ignore everyone else.
That is another story so lets talk about instancing .....
I have read many of the post if not all and the only way that would seem to solve this is to have servers which have instancing in them and some that don't. The only problem with this is it seems as of now it either can't be done or they see it as too much work to do.
So with that a war ensues..
On one side we have the pro-instancers = They appear to be mainly be non-pvpers, non-confrontational, enjoy PvE, I just want to get stuff done, I need to relax, I simply want to play alone, I'm a casual gamer, my butt is still sore and I need ice to sit down from UO days ( and you were not traumatized by pvp on UO or if don't know what UO even is I really don't understand you) types.
On the other side we the against instancing crowd = They appear to be mainly pvpers, who get bored with the PvE, hardcore gamer, the more people the merrier, need more challenge since AI is not really AI, 100% pure adrenaline, lets get it on, large raid, don't know when to quit, strong will, huh? you talking to me types.
I also realize there are many in between who maybe lean to one side or the other and maybe a few who are indifferent.
I tend to lean toward the against instancing crowd. Other than what I have mentioned I feel things tend to get a little too quiet for mmorpg with instances applied. Also I feel that mmorpgs were made more for meeting others and growing as a community than the I don't want to be bothered with others right now types. Even though I am not calling from total elimination of solo events and activities. I think they should take into consideration of meeting the needs of people who want to interact with large amount of people first.
I really do hope they can get it on some servers and not on others because I see at least in these posts that the instancing crowd can be just as intolerent as they claim the non-instancing crowd is. I mean comments like it is here to stay and that is the way is should be ....please.
If there is no way to separate by servers then maybe it can be instancing can be used sparingly.
my heart (and time) belongs to lineage2 wich is kind of zero instatiated
i like the feeling that a whole world is there with 1000nds of players where some of them are real presonalities and everyone shaping the world.
yet on the other hand playinf d&d online in stresstest very much reminded me of what i liked in fantasy games: an adventure, a story, story twists, riddles, oponents that do not spant but that are there on purpose..... but yes these same things i alreaddy had more or less playing NWN online with a bunch of friends
i think some developers of "pvp" games think their job is easy. just let some mobs spawn somewhere, make a few "shallow" quests and let players more or less bash it out between grinding session. well for me it feels that is not enough.
what i have yet to see is a 3rd kind of mmorpg: no instanciation but a changing world. a world so huge and ever changing that the players can expirience adventures without farmers camping and adventure. with clever pvp where there is something to gain from it rather then to pwn someone without destroying hope if one side is considdered weaker then the other. i think one day a lot of ideas and hard work can produce such a mmorpg because i see instanciation only as a solution to a problem that wasnt worked hard enough to solve it with other means.
if your bored, visit my blog at: http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
Instancing is just another tool the designers have in their arsenal. Like the eternal PvE vs PvP debate, no one solution is ever going to be right for all the potential players, so variety is goig to be the order of the day. I find I prefer tighter, more controlled gameplay with small teams although the social aspect of having a huge pool of potential team mates is very exciting. It allows much greater graphical detail and variety if the game doesn't need to cope with a hundred or more avatars on screen at once and looking unique is important to me. Luckily some of the designers are making games to suit me while others plan larger, full scale battles for those of a different view.
DDO is a very extreme example because its attempting to replicate a very small-scale gaming environment for a mass audience. I would be surprised if we see anything quite that focussed on private team adventures again unless the core design really required it.
first of all i like to say that my biggest experience with instancing must be guild wars since i play that game for about 9 months now I realy like the way you can go everywhere without having the trouble of other players stealing away your mob right in front of you ... i don't have a clue why some people are so hard on instancing since you still can socialize as mutch as you want, go to the cities which are "open" & you can meet lots of other people btw, the community isn't always build on the game only, you have the several Fora on the internet around the game where you meet others, discuss the game, ask for help
so i don't quite see whats the problem on instancing since you must admit that guildwars does have a nice comunity, unlike some games called real mmorpgs which have like 100 players after release.
now to discuss your idea craynlon what you suggest (an ever changing world to venture in) this is kind of stressfull for the servers don't you think not only the servers but the designers would have a very very difficult job changing the world constantly... or if you really want to have it change automaticaly, it would be a hell of a job for programmers too.
there is a game out, called ryzom, the saga of ryzom this game is actualy not a very good mmorpg, some believe they did a very crappy job on gameplay & feeling ... but they did have some nice features. if i recall corectly, each group of enemy mobs lead theyre own life, they traveled trough the world witch meant you would find a group of lets say bugs somewhere to the north east of the map & when you come back the day after, they would have moved to the center....
thats nice, & somewhat in the direction of an evolving world but more of that & nice gfx will result in major server stressing which is why they use so many instances guild wars servers have 70% less server processing because its all instanced.
Despite all the problems caused by the wide open game experience, I'd definately say instancing hurts a game community, except maybe when used in the most minimal of ways. Instancing makes a game too predictable, soloing becomes ideal, and in my experience, meeting new people becomes so much more difficult. Finding groups, guilds, or even just friends, when the gameplay is individually packaged and simplified, tends to be much more of an excercise in frustration than in uninstanced games.
I don't want to pretend I'm a hero in a world full of players playing identical heros. I don't need the cookie cutter storylines instances offer. Saving the princess who's been saved a million times already. As one of thousands, I want to feel there are thousands of players around, potential friends, or foes, playing the same game together. Not in a thousand different little pockets, interacting only if they really want to. I think the gameplay needs to encourage interaction, to establish a strong community. Not just leave players to choose it, for no reason aside from being social - it just doesn't work that way, in any MMO I've tried.
So anyhow, glad to see I'm not the only one frustrated by the latest trends of instanced MMOs. Definately a step in the wrong direction, imho. There are far better ways of dealing with the problems of players getting in eachother's way than seperating them into thier own little games.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
The poll is to limiting, I'm in favor of some limited instancing. Even the debater taking the anti-instance stance I didn't get the impression that person was against all instancing.
I played EQ for about 5 years and grew to hate "camping" special spawns. Particularly for a character's Epic quest, some of the rare spawns were highly contested and it was very frustrating to clear a camp and work the spawn, finally producing the desired rare monster or humanoid only to have some better-equipped dewd jump in and profit from your work and patience.
WoW did a better job of dealing with quest-targets at least part of the time...the quest giver would give you a horn or tell you to find a camp and light a torch, and the rare spawn would appear. The contest would then be whether you were up to the challenge, rather than whether you had infinite patience and called in sick to work that day to work the camp. These were not "instances" as such but more triggered or scripted events. There's still camping in WoW, as any Hunter who waits and waits for a chance to tame Broken Tooth can attest. More than once I managed to make him appear only to run over as some gnome blasted him to see what kind of "phat lewt" the Named cat would drop.
That's about the best thing you can say about instances, they gave everyone a chance at the boss. Rich powerful players often camped lower boss spawns that were trivial to them but a source of salable goods, both ingame and on ebay. In EQ the worst example I had the displeasure of encountering was a party that was commonly referred to as "6 Box" (a player controlling 6 characters at once) who would lurk about in extremely difficult areas letting entire raids clear rooms and hallways only to sprint by at the last moment and kill the boss. All 6 of the characters were maxxed out and super-equipped and it was common knowledge that the items off the bosses were being ebayed.
I certainly agree that MMORPGs should have players interacting as much as possible but they should also have some instancing to ensure that all players have the chance to pit themselves against the big challenges, and that the highest level guilds and players don't monopolize the fun.
No one plays to be a lesser citizen or peasant. Well maybe in Peasant's Quest.
well in my 2 extremes lineage2 (zero instancing) vs ddo (all adventure instanced) its like that:
community: LINEAGE2 = huge community on the server. if you do something bad or good the other players will know you. i dont know all players on the server and certainly not all players know me but there is a feeling of personality. there are known good guys, known leaders, known bad guys. it is in true a parallel world DDO = i didnt know anyone, i would call my rl friends to play an adventure plus pick up a few random classes i need. my contacts would be players but not characters in that world
adventures/ exploration LINEAGE2 = the sense of exploration is only there when new content is released (in l2 called a chronicle, around every 6month) then you get new areas to explore new mosters to challenge. after around 2 weeks after the release you have seen most new feature and its mainly grind to boost your char to pvp (or just for boosting you char) DDO = many adventures, probably very complex with riddles, story and everything that makes an exiting game. but since it doesnt really fit into a persistant world to save the princes a 100th time the mastering of such a quest is a personal win, nothing noticable on the world.
pvp LINEAGE2 = pvp in wars and sieges. winning clans can own a castle. my main concern is owning a castle does not mean enough since you have next to no influence on your land. as you loose xp in pvp a lot of casual gamers shy away from it. DDO = no pvp in the begnning
my utopic next gen mmorpg: no instanciation to preserve the parallel world feeling
adventures/ content gets introduced constantly for example by players starting in 1 area and have to expand the base of playable content by fighting for land vs mobs (maybe tabula-rasa brings that)
pvp it should be strict realm vs realm (or good vs evil like eq?). pvp needs a focus, to win land, to protect your homebase, to rob an enemy ? i could see a dozent pvp or at least group vs group related quest/ adventures in a persistant world
if your bored, visit my blog at: http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
Instancing has nothing to do with the original princip of an MMORPG. WoW for example is not a true MMORPG it is more an advanced Diablo.
So to say Developers have to understand that there are two different typs of players nowadays. Those that want the action undisturbed with their friends without danger from unkowns. And those that want a world to make a living in and to fight for something.
U can reduce that to competitive and non-competitive players. To make both typs of players happy in the same game seems not to be working as the past has shown. To get back to instances; Yes for the non- competitive players it may be fun - for the competitive players instances are pure bullshit.
So to say, yes a true MMORPG is defintily damaged by using instances, cause as soon as instances are used the true concept of MMORPGs is negated (as others in this thread mentioned Anarchy Online was the only one using instanced content in a usefull way so far when u think about the original MMORPG concept)
cheers Stevesan
P.S. As a side note; only a very limited number of players of the nowadays MMO scene have had the chance to live through a real MMORPG which was called UO:pre renaissance. All those that missed the experience of the only so far true MMORPG cant judge the difference anyways, which in my eyes is somehow very sad hehe
Originally posted by Stevesan Instancing has nothing to do with the original princip of an MMORPG. WoW for example is not a true MMORPG it is more an advanced Diablo. So to say, yes a true MMORPG is defintily damaged by using instances, cause as soon as instances are used the true concept of MMORPGs is negated
You say "true concept" and "original principles" of MMORPGs are being negated...
Tell me how instancing does this? Most types of instancing change absolutely nothing in a MMORPG other than effectively reserve mobs for certain groups to kill undisturbed...
So...unless a person is PLANNING to DISTURB those killing mobs...it shouldn't matter at all right?
I mean you can still easily find groups to XP with, you can still easily talk to others, you can still get the feeling of being in a massive multiplayer world (even GW gives you that feeling to some extent, and it's basically entirely instanced...and WoW and EQ2 CERTAINLY give you that feeling...so you can't call either Diablo, I'm sorry!) in fact you can do basically everything that EVERY mmorpg has whether instanced or not...So the ONLY POSSIBLE thing you could plan to do that instancing STOPS you from doing is DISTURB another players game, well, the other thing it stops is randomly helping someone too. So, unless you tell me you want to get rid of instancing so you can randomly HEAL someone or save from death...then I'm going to have to disagree with you.
I mean you can still easily find groups to XP with, you can still easily talk to others, you can still get the feeling of being in a massive multiplayer world (even GW gives you that feeling to some extent, and it's basically entirely instanced...and WoW and EQ2 CERTAINLY give you that feeling...so you can't call either Diablo, I'm sorry!) in fact you can do basically everything that EVERY mmorpg has whether instanced or not...So the ONLY POSSIBLE thing you could plan to do that instancing STOPS you from doing is DISTURB another players game, well, the other thing it stops is randomly helping someone too. So, unless you tell me you want to get rid of instancing so you can randomly HEAL someone or save from death...then I'm going to have to disagree with you.
This guy knows what hes talking about. instancing doesnt disturb the feeling of a large community at all. In fact it just helps you from being disturbed. If the game is not instanced at all, it takes some of the fun away in my opinion.
but for many people the mmorpg world is a parallel/alternate world to the rl world
instancing is like robbing a bank and bevore u enter it a copy of that bank is made so more people can rob the same bank at the same time. imho that completely destroys the feeling of a persistant world
some counter measures that work against the reason of instaciating like camping can be solved inside the game and were also presented in this thread:
if you want that a boss-mob is only be hunted by a handfull of people on an adventure let the questgiver appear randomly along their road and tell that bosses story. then give them a special blessing / item so only them can summon and kill it. its true that this may be an instaciated boss then but at least it fits in a persistant world
dont make a game where every quest/ exploit/ weapon stats is packed on a webpage 2 weeks after its release. make a world where things happen much more random where secrets can be explored and go away after they are explored. makea world that changes by players actions.
maybe it takes 3 or 10 times more intelligence/ efford and even some gms (that have earned this name and not mere helpdesk workers) but 1milion+ players cashing in 20 dollars a month should make that payable imho.
im saying that instancing is a workaround to a problem that should be solved thrue clever game design and not by "cheating" the feeling of a persistant world (same with farmers/botters/griefers)
if your bored, visit my blog at: http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
Originally posted by MasterchiefM Instancing in most game just makes it more boring, cause the only reason they have them in WoW is to get better gear and more gold, and the high lvl guilds just dont let anyone in anymore.
Have you ever played any other big raid MMORPG? What you stated is EQ1, period. The purpose of big raids it gold and gear, if they didn't have that who'd do them? And don't say you would because DAOC has at least a half dozen raids per realm that no one does because the loot isn't good enough. On some servers some of the SI raids have never been finished, not a single time, and no one cares to even try. The Darkspire 1 group instance dungeon has some of the best gear in the game, and probably gets completed 10 or more times a day on the non-TOA servers.
And when it comes elitism EQ1 is FAR worse. Huge raid guilds that didn't non-guildes in the raid, but the loot was less and the number of people more. And of course the best thing: only one raid, after it was dead it didn't respawn for days.
WoW lets you have DOZENS of big raid guilds on the same raid at the same time, and they aren't in each others way.
My personal opinion is that instancing is a huge part of the future of MMOs, and what we see now are it's infant stages. Devs will be able to do much more it down the road, things we haven't even thought of yet. It still won't be in every game though, not every design calls for it.
Originally posted by craynlon instancing is like robbing a bank and bevore u enter it a copy of that bank is madeso more people can rob the same bank at the same time.
Which one is more immersive, that you get a group of people together and make a plan and rob a bank, or that you get a group of people together and make a plan and show up at a bank, the tellers are shot, the customers ran out screaming, and money is all gone?
How I see it from my perspective. I have only played MMORPG's that offer PvP.
When the group of people that I hung with would decide to quest, the BEST part of it (even more than the loot the quest gave) would be playing with the "fear" that we might get jumped before completing it. I found myself actually hoping for a little excitement like this more and more b/c questing is semi boring. If we ran into a particularly hard guy or group of dudes trying to kill us and couldn't make it past them, we could put a call out to some other guys to come help take them out. This many times ended up with us forgetting about the quest and chasing / being chased by people for hours.
IMO a lot more fun than going into a "safe" monotinous dungeon to do a quest.
Comments
"Here is my contribution to this thread:
Because the genre has evolved (for better AND worse) and diversified, it would be great if those who run this site took the innovative first step to reclassify/classify with much greater distinction the games it promotes.
Doing so would also make good business sense because it would allow for selective marketing of products to those interested. Some simple examples that could be paired together to represent a code that you can recognize simply by clicking on a game list:
(L)evels vs. (S)kill-driven
(N)on-(P)ersistent vs. (P)ersistent
...and so on. Pve, PvP, RvR, Death Penalty y/n, PD y/n, subscription y/n....there are a whole SLEW of ways to categorize these games so that selective gamers can go find what they want and make this site more powerful.
I don't know how to get this suggestion to the higher ups at mmorpg.com so maybe someone could help or point the way. Just a thought.
Permadeath and environmental challenges are the next great step in the evolution of MMORPGs. Only through true adversity will one feel accomplished. Only in truly knowing you can die will true adversity present itself."
__________________________________
That is a great idea. I love it. I second the motion. Truth in advertising. No more misnomers. Guildwars is what it is. Its not a MMORPG. ANyway just wanted to let you know I agree with the quote above.
I completely agree with Garrett Fuller..
However, I take it to the extreme, I simply dont play Instanced Mmo's... they ruined MMO's in my mind, and untill a company clues in and realizes that instancing is against everything that is a MMO.. I will not be playing their game that they like to call an MMO.. this goes strait to games like Guild Wars or DDO, you are a desgrace to the MMO name, you arnt mmo's... you are online rpg's with fancy lobbys.
What the hell is this, "it's good for pve, but not for pvp," crap... it is bad for both, it ruins both, it kills both completely, there is no way around it, it is pointless, it is unrealistic, it is stupid.. it makes no sence what so ever to do this, other then to make it easier on the devs.
When you go to a dungeon, that is the dungeon, there aint 20 different versions of that dungeon, that is stupid.. this is a Massively Multiplayer Game, when you go into a dungeon, that dungeon should be part of the main world, not a seperate zone that has no effect on the overall game.. it is just some side zone where you can get items from. How the hell does that make sence?
Instances destroy Pve because it destroys the unique factor in items, sure people can "grief" you or KS your uber mob that you have been camping for a few hours, but making a instance with 20 different versions of that elite mob is not what devs should be doing. Devs should be lowering the spawn time, making items drop easier or just actually make the game unique and not have the same mob spawn in the same spot. Every unique named mob should be unique, when it dies, it should be gone, it should not be some treasure chest that people can get that uber BP from.
And instancing in Pvp is truely retarded (WoW) no reason for me to debate that, that is obvious.
In my mind, we are going backwards.. we had the original EQ and UO then from there on a few games like Daoc have proved themselves, but eventually killed themselves with Instancing... and now, we feal the effects.
It just makes me happy to prove people are full of crap. You aren't a vet of WoW, so I'm going to assume you lied about 90% of those other games. 1. I'm assuming for priest you meant flash heal? What a crappy priest? How about removing curses, and throwing dots, and making sure their party can conserve mana? 2. Main tanks spam rend and execute? Those are the only two skills a main tank will NEVER use.
Taunt, Heroic Strike, Sunder Armor, Mocking Blow, Challenging Shout, all of those increase hate, and aren't just 2 skills.
Now I'll agree, end game WoW is boring and repetitive.. just back your points up with more conclusive evidence. Plus, the DAoC RvR felt pretty instance-y to me.
I'm sorry but have those that are bleeting about how WoWs instances ruin the game by restricting player interaction actually have played WoW before?
During the many months that I played WoW I spent very little overall time in Instances. WoW has a extremely large Open World with hundreds of quests to complete. If you like the idea of spawn camping and ganking those legimately trying to complete a certain quest, then you were able to (on PvP servers). However in the interest of balance and actually given depth to the RPG part of MMORPG they have created several scripted areas for people to become immersed in. Instances were created so that MMORPGs could give players a short (not including endgame instances) unbreakable storyline, where a small party fights through and defeats some Boss, or rescues some person. Allowing such a scripted quest to be accesible to the open world would make the whole point of highly scripting it in the first place useless and turn it into a grind (or suicide run if high-lvl PvPers camped the Boss making completion impossible).
Instances were created so that everyone would be happy with the game. If you don't like Instances, largely avoid them, there is plenty of Open World content to enjoy.
Oh and about Instanced PvP? That was incorporated to allow those on PvE servers to still wet their whistle once in awhile to fight in a scripted War environment. Yes Instanced PvP on a PvP server is useless and can ruin the game if people devote themselves to it, but the concept was added to the game accross the board rather than trying to create two entirely seperate games.
And actually when I think about it, normal instances also give players on PvP servers a time out during a particular quest. It would be quite refreshing for them to be able to relax and concentrate on the quest for a time.
Instances are in MMORPGs in order to satisfy all types of people. Trying to argue whether they detract or add to the game is a waste of time because they were originally intended as a balancing issue so PvP'ers and PvE'ers wouldn't HAVE to argue about what is better... they'd both get exactly what they want to out of the game.
WoW is not a fluidly changing realm based on players actions, therefore Instances have no negetive impact on the game. As far as I'm concerned those that complain about Instances are usually PvP'ers who a bleeting over the fact that there is somebody in there they cannot PWN and ruin their evening of gameplay fun.
I will however agree that certain games are too heavily Instanced which ruins the game. DDO sounds like it needed a hell of alot more Open World content. Hell even Guild Wars which was created on the backs of Instances has many different MMO towns and meeting points across the face of the land.
Oh and one bit I missed about people complaining how hard it can be to get a group together to tackle an instance without being in a Guild. Excuse me? Although I was in Guild I spent most of my Instancing hours with random players and often had a great time as although your were strangers, you are all united for a common goal. Instances in WoW don't break apart the community, they enhance it by making it necessary to join with others.
Ok well thats more than my $0.02 worth. Thanks for reading
I am surprised to see the poll with the "it hurts" a mmorpg winning! I don't see how everyone is coming up with this point of view. Most games out today have a good 80% plus wide open content so how can an instanced area ruin a game? Well to me it can't. To me helps the game if for no other reason that it keeps me away from all the jerks who play these games.
Instanced areas were created to combat all the millions of total jerks and others hiding behind a keyboard who really don't care about anyone but themselves. In a perfect world where everyone is kind to each other instanced areas would of never been created.
I remember back in my Everquest days. My first real group into Lower Guk and I was so pumped to finally be able to hit the big time (pre expansions of course). The very first thing the group leader did when we all zone in was: /ooc Camp check please! We ended up leaving because everything was camped. That was also the day I decided not to recognize camps anymore (so ya I guess I'm part of the reason instanced areas was created, too) and took advantage of the one good thing Verant had going and that was the "play nice" rule. I was as nice as I could be when I did it and ya I made alot of people mad and alot of GMs had to step in like we were in grade school, but I was able to get the awesome loot just like everyone else who didn't have a job was able to do.
So for me instanced zones are a god send. No more making enemies because I wanna play what I pay for as well - no more zerk jerks running past me after I've cleared a path. No fuss, no hassle. No more children no more behind holes to ruin my game. Here is an example - its a debate forum but click back to page 8 of the posts and look for sublingual's post. People like this are the #1 reason instanced areas are here to stay. I mean sheesh he can't even debate without flaming so imagine how he would be in a non instanced dungeon right as you and your group werwe about to hit the boss room and he comes wizzing by. Think he will say, "Oh sorry guys - didn't realize you were heading to the boss. I'll let you guys have it and take the next spawn" Yeah right I see that happening.
I honestly feel the main reason people don't like instanced areas is because it limits the amount of people who will see the uber gear they have. We play mmorpgs for bragging rights - so we can show off to the world a new look or a new found set of armor or maybe a glowing or flamin weapon no one else has. And getting these items in an instanced zone take away nothing from that.
Even if the percentages are 80% open area and 20% instanced, it doesn't indicate what quality of content is placed within each area. There might be a huge desert with very little to do in it, and 1 instanced dungeon in the desert, guess where people are going to go, especially if you put the best gear inside them. In my opinion, Instances do solve many issues that many people have highlighted, but that doesn't mean there aren't other methods and means to solving the same issues. We are NOT talking about a single solution problem here people.
I think instances detract from the community because it disappears, literally. In WoW you can be in a zone populated by 100s of people, and yet see 3 people walking around. Everyone else is locked away in instances, and what do they do when they finish? Hand in Quest then hearth! If i'm playing a game that is supposed to be multiplayer on a massive scale then correct me if i'm wrong, but shouldn't that mean that i should see and be able to (even if i don't choose to) interact with lots of other players.
Yes, there are problems to having lots of players compete over the same dungeons, but there are also benefits. At least companies like Sigil are prepared to investigate other solutions rather than just accpeting some kind of inevitability, which in the end only succeeds in stifling creativity and imagination. It is simply flawed to say that you MUST have instances because of [insert list of problems here] without considering the possibility that increased game tech might allow for solutions to those problems that no one had thought of before. The industry needs brave souls who don't rely on the easy way out, and instances are definately the easy way out!
Do instances hurt MMO's? How they are currently being used, YES!
Sigil might not get it right, but at least they're trying.
Oh, and Valorus, instances don't stop the jerks, they just limit them a bit. At the same time though, they also limit the nice people as well, making it harder to just simply stop by and help. I love that feeling, especially when i played a healer class, of coming in to save someone's life just when they were about to get owned.
What instances allow (which hasnt been realized by most games) is for there to be stories ABOUT the character. They also allow dynamic content that tells a story, rather than just.. the frenzied ghoul room.. or the jail in plane of law.
The difference between instanced and non-instanced content is the difference between a bar and a bowling alley. If you go to a bar, you are going with the intention of socializing. Bars succeed because they are able to attract a stable clientele who know their friends will be there and that the people there will be the kind of people they like. Bowling alleys are where you go with your friends, or perhaps alone with the intention of making new friends, or just knocking down some pins by yourself.
I'm a bowling alley person. I like MMORPGs because, by and large, they are much better designed with more play options than a single player game. And I like having other people around. I like helping people that are stuck or less experienced. Sometimes I like talking to people in game, or grouping with people. And sometimes I just want to knock down some pins by myself.
I laugh at the argument that instances hurt community. If you are a joiner and a herd animal, you'll join a guild and do stuff with your guild. If you are more of a loner, then you will make a few friends, and do stuff with your friends. Or play with pick-up groups.
I played EQ and there were instances in EQ. And they sucked. They were just more of the same, only you got credit towards leet items.
The same 'community' arguments have been used to argue against soloable content. And I have learned to be leery of games who try and force 'community' down my throat.
Instancing is a blessing, as long as it is to make CONTENT and challenge accessible to all players.
"Open" MMOs hiding behind the artificial competition between players rather than putting content are making a mistake, a long term mistake.
As far as I am concerned, everything should be "open", yet instancable upon a zoning. Trigger named through quests, accomplishments or whatever, not a random spawn that 985395485 players are trying to camp.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
They shouldn't force community down your throat (agreed) but they also shouldn't limit or block it. Instances are a block/limit to community because they reduce drastically the number of people available for you to interact with, making the virutal world, and therefore the community within it, less alive and vibrant.
Devs do not and can not create community, players do that. The devs job is to give the players the tools to communicate with, and then let them do their thing. CCP and EVE Online are a good example of this type of community building.
EvE doesn't need Instances for one simple reason that all other MMORPGs don't have, near unlimited empty 3D space. Player interaction is also vastly reduced due to warping. You cannot randomly come across somebody in space, it will always be a station, gate, field, or they are specifically hunting you in a Safespot. Because of this it makes it very easy for them to have quests that nobody else will ever come across except you... they just place it in some random spot in space that only you have the co-ords to warp to. It is entirely impracticle for other MMORPGs to have anything even approaching this because you CAN have random encounters running across the country-side, and therefore could quite easily have somebody stumble across you, and your quest, and gack you just because they were bored. Also to even come close to a comparison with EvE, all quests would be randomly located in a huge desert, and quest monsters only pop up when you get close. EvE by its very nature of being in space makes Instancing unneeded. Spawn camping (except for their complexes) is impossible.
I totally disagree with you statement that Instances dramatically reduce the number of people available to interact with. You're assuming that each Instance is simultaneously hosting hundreds of players. For one, in WoW, each Instance isn't playing host to innumerous people. Stand near an Instance sometime and watch how many parties go by in an hour. Then take into account how long it takes them to finish and come back out again. Granted once multiplied across all Instances is a sizable figure, but still barely a drop in the ocean when compared to the total number of players online at any one time.
Your argument is akin to saying I walk into a nightclub of a mythical figure of 300. Because they have private booths, 20 people are in their own little world apart from everyone else. All of a sudden I can only interact with 280 people if I wished to... does this really detract from the social element of the nightclub or the enjoyment I could have? Would it really make a difference if there were no private booths and those 20 people were socialising as well? Hell no. It only takes away their right to seek temporary solitude in an enjoyable atmosphere if they so wish it with their friends.
Instances have a place in MMORPGs and I believe will be here to stay, whether you agree with them or not.
instancing is the future want proof that "carebares" are what make up a good majority of MMO's
TOP 3 RATED GAMES at least for mmorpg.com are as follows
#1 eve-online has instancing
#2 guild wars has instancing
#3 WoW has instancing
INSTANCING IS THE FUTURE AND ALL YOU KNOW IT STOP WHINING
Is there an MMO that out there that isn't affected by Xao Ping Wang and their money grubbing macro bots?
http://wow.stratics.com/content/features/editorials/mf/
Just say no to ingame money/mob farming.... the site says it all
First off this is how I feel about instancing
I think that it is the worst thing done to mmorpgs socially since tells were put into them. I mean tells are like having telepathy. You can talk to who you want and ignore everyone else.
That is another story so lets talk about instancing .....
I have read many of the post if not all and the only way that would seem to solve this is to have servers which have instancing in them and some that don't. The only problem with this is it seems as of now it either can't be done or they see it as too much work to do.
So with that a war ensues..
On one side we have the pro-instancers = They appear to be mainly be non-pvpers, non-confrontational, enjoy PvE, I just want to get stuff done, I need to relax, I simply want to play alone, I'm a casual gamer, my butt is still sore and I need ice to sit down from UO days ( and you were not traumatized by pvp on UO or if don't know what UO even is I really don't understand you) types.
On the other side we the against instancing crowd = They appear to be mainly pvpers, who get bored with the PvE, hardcore gamer, the more people the merrier, need more challenge since AI is not really AI, 100% pure adrenaline, lets get it on, large raid, don't know when to quit, strong will, huh? you talking to me types.
I also realize there are many in between who maybe lean to one side or the other and maybe a few who are indifferent.
I tend to lean toward the against instancing crowd. Other than what I have mentioned I feel things tend to get a little too quiet for mmorpg with instances applied. Also I feel that mmorpgs were made more for meeting others and growing as a community than the I don't want to be bothered with others right now types. Even though I am not calling from total elimination of solo events and activities. I think they should take into consideration of meeting the needs of people who want to interact with large amount of people first.
I really do hope they can get it on some servers and not on others because I see at least in these posts that the instancing crowd can be just as intolerent as they claim the non-instancing crowd is. I mean comments like it is here to stay and that is the way is should be ....please.
If there is no way to separate by servers then maybe it can be instancing can be used sparingly.
And that is all I have to say about that..
my heart (and time) belongs to lineage2 wich is kind of zero instatiated
i like the feeling that a whole world is there with 1000nds of players where some of them are real
presonalities and everyone shaping the world.
yet on the other hand playinf d&d online in stresstest very much reminded me of what i liked in fantasy games: an adventure, a story, story twists, riddles, oponents that do not spant but that are there on purpose.....
but yes these same things i alreaddy had more or less playing NWN online with a bunch of friends
i think some developers of "pvp" games think their job is easy.
just let some mobs spawn somewhere, make a few "shallow" quests and let players more or less bash it out between grinding session. well for me it feels that is not enough.
what i have yet to see is a 3rd kind of mmorpg:
no instanciation but a changing world. a world so huge and ever changing that the players can expirience adventures without farmers camping and adventure. with clever pvp where there is something to gain from it rather then to pwn someone without destroying hope if one side is considdered weaker then the other.
i think one day a lot of ideas and hard work can produce such a mmorpg because i see instanciation only as a solution to a problem that wasnt worked hard enough to solve it with other means.
if your bored, visit my blog at:
http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
Instancing is just another tool the designers have in their arsenal. Like the eternal PvE vs PvP debate, no one solution is ever going to be right for all the potential players, so variety is goig to be the order of the day. I find I prefer tighter, more controlled gameplay with small teams although the social aspect of having a huge pool of potential team mates is very exciting. It allows much greater graphical detail and variety if the game doesn't need to cope with a hundred or more avatars on screen at once and looking unique is important to me. Luckily some of the designers are making games to suit me while others plan larger, full scale battles for those of a different view.
DDO is a very extreme example because its attempting to replicate a very small-scale gaming environment for a mass audience. I would be surprised if we see anything quite that focussed on private team adventures again unless the core design really required it.
first of all i like to say that my biggest experience with instancing must be guild wars since i play that game for about 9 months now
I realy like the way you can go everywhere without having the trouble of other players stealing away your mob right in front of you ...
i don't have a clue why some people are so hard on instancing since you still can socialize as mutch as you want, go to the cities which are "open" & you can meet lots of other people
btw, the community isn't always build on the game only, you have the several Fora on the internet around the game where you meet others, discuss the game, ask for help
so i don't quite see whats the problem on instancing since you must admit that guildwars does have a nice comunity, unlike some games called real mmorpgs which have like 100 players after release.
now to discuss your idea craynlon
not only the servers but the designers would have a very very difficult job changing the world constantly... or if you really want to have it change automaticaly, it would be a hell of a job for programmers too.
what you suggest (an ever changing world to venture in)
this is kind of stressfull for the servers don't you think
there is a game out, called ryzom, the saga of ryzom
this game is actualy not a very good mmorpg, some believe they did a very crappy job on gameplay & feeling ... but they did have some nice features.
if i recall corectly, each group of enemy mobs lead theyre own life, they traveled trough the world witch meant you would find a group of lets say bugs somewhere to the north east of the map
& when you come back the day after, they would have moved to the center....
thats nice, & somewhat in the direction of an evolving world
but more of that & nice gfx will result in major server stressing
which is why they use so many instances
guild wars servers have 70% less server processing because its all instanced.
Despite all the problems caused by the wide open game experience, I'd definately say instancing hurts a game community, except maybe when used in the most minimal of ways. Instancing makes a game too predictable, soloing becomes ideal, and in my experience, meeting new people becomes so much more difficult. Finding groups, guilds, or even just friends, when the gameplay is individually packaged and simplified, tends to be much more of an excercise in frustration than in uninstanced games.
I don't want to pretend I'm a hero in a world full of players playing identical heros. I don't need the cookie cutter storylines instances offer. Saving the princess who's been saved a million times already. As one of thousands, I want to feel there are thousands of players around, potential friends, or foes, playing the same game together. Not in a thousand different little pockets, interacting only if they really want to. I think the gameplay needs to encourage interaction, to establish a strong community. Not just leave players to choose it, for no reason aside from being social - it just doesn't work that way, in any MMO I've tried.
So anyhow, glad to see I'm not the only one frustrated by the latest trends of instanced MMOs. Definately a step in the wrong direction, imho. There are far better ways of dealing with the problems of players getting in eachother's way than seperating them into thier own little games.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
The poll is to limiting, I'm in favor of some limited instancing. Even the debater taking the anti-instance stance I didn't get the impression that person was against all instancing.
I played EQ for about 5 years and grew to hate "camping" special spawns. Particularly for a character's Epic quest, some of the rare spawns were highly contested and it was very frustrating to clear a camp and work the spawn, finally producing the desired rare monster or humanoid only to have some better-equipped dewd jump in and profit from your work and patience.
WoW did a better job of dealing with quest-targets at least part of the time...the quest giver would give you a horn or tell you to find a camp and light a torch, and the rare spawn would appear. The contest would then be whether you were up to the challenge, rather than whether you had infinite patience and called in sick to work that day to work the camp. These were not "instances" as such but more triggered or scripted events. There's still camping in WoW, as any Hunter who waits and waits for a chance to tame Broken Tooth can attest. More than once I managed to make him appear only to run over as some gnome blasted him to see what kind of "phat lewt" the Named cat would drop.
That's about the best thing you can say about instances, they gave everyone a chance at the boss. Rich powerful players often camped lower boss spawns that were trivial to them but a source of salable goods, both ingame and on ebay. In EQ the worst example I had the displeasure of encountering was a party that was commonly referred to as "6 Box" (a player controlling 6 characters at once) who would lurk about in extremely difficult areas letting entire raids clear rooms and hallways only to sprint by at the last moment and kill the boss. All 6 of the characters were maxxed out and super-equipped and it was common knowledge that the items off the bosses were being ebayed.
I certainly agree that MMORPGs should have players interacting as much as possible but they should also have some instancing to ensure that all players have the chance to pit themselves against the big challenges, and that the highest level guilds and players don't monopolize the fun.
No one plays to be a lesser citizen or peasant. Well maybe in Peasant's Quest.
well in my 2 extremes lineage2 (zero instancing) vs ddo (all adventure instanced) its like that:
community:
LINEAGE2 = huge community on the server. if you do something bad or good the other players will know you. i dont know all players on the server and certainly not all players know me but there is a feeling of personality. there are known good guys, known leaders, known bad guys. it is in true a parallel world
DDO = i didnt know anyone, i would call my rl friends to play an adventure plus pick up a few random classes i need. my contacts would be players but not characters in that world
adventures/ exploration
LINEAGE2 = the sense of exploration is only there when new content is released (in l2 called a chronicle, around every 6month) then you get new areas to explore new mosters to challenge. after around 2 weeks after the release you have seen most new feature and its mainly grind to boost your char to pvp (or just for boosting you char)
DDO = many adventures, probably very complex with riddles, story and everything that makes an exiting game. but since it doesnt really fit into a persistant world to save the princes a 100th time the mastering of such a quest is a personal win, nothing noticable on the world.
pvp
LINEAGE2 = pvp in wars and sieges. winning clans can own a castle. my main concern is owning a castle does not mean enough since you have next to no influence on your land. as you loose xp in pvp a lot of casual gamers shy away from it.
DDO = no pvp in the begnning
my utopic next gen mmorpg:
no instanciation to preserve the parallel world feeling
adventures/ content gets introduced constantly for example by players starting in 1 area and have to expand the base of playable content by fighting for land vs mobs (maybe tabula-rasa brings that)
pvp it should be strict realm vs realm (or good vs evil like eq?). pvp needs a focus, to win land, to protect your homebase, to rob an enemy ? i could see a dozent pvp or at least group vs group related quest/ adventures in a persistant world
if your bored, visit my blog at:
http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
Instancing has nothing to do with the original princip of an MMORPG. WoW for example is not a true MMORPG it is more an advanced Diablo.
So to say Developers have to understand that there are two different typs of players nowadays. Those that want the action undisturbed with their friends without danger from unkowns. And those that want a world to make a living in and to fight for something.
U can reduce that to competitive and non-competitive players. To make both typs of players happy in the same game seems not to be working as the past has shown. To get back to instances; Yes for the non- competitive players it may be fun - for the competitive players instances are pure bullshit.
So to say, yes a true MMORPG is defintily damaged by using instances, cause as soon as instances are used the true concept of MMORPGs is negated (as others in this thread mentioned Anarchy Online was the only one using instanced content in a usefull way so far when u think about the original MMORPG concept)
cheers
Stevesan
P.S. As a side note; only a very limited number of players of the nowadays MMO scene have had the chance to live through a real MMORPG which was called UO:pre renaissance. All those that missed the experience of the only so far true MMORPG cant judge the difference anyways, which in my eyes is somehow very sad hehe
You say "true concept" and "original principles" of MMORPGs are being negated...
Tell me how instancing does this? Most types of instancing change absolutely nothing in a MMORPG other than effectively reserve mobs for certain groups to kill undisturbed...
So...unless a person is PLANNING to DISTURB those killing mobs...it shouldn't matter at all right?
I mean you can still easily find groups to XP with, you can still easily talk to others, you can still get the feeling of being in a massive multiplayer world (even GW gives you that feeling to some extent, and it's basically entirely instanced...and WoW and EQ2 CERTAINLY give you that feeling...so you can't call either Diablo, I'm sorry!) in fact you can do basically everything that EVERY mmorpg has whether instanced or not...So the ONLY POSSIBLE thing you could plan to do that instancing STOPS you from doing is DISTURB another players game, well, the other thing it stops is randomly helping someone too. So, unless you tell me you want to get rid of instancing so you can randomly HEAL someone or save from death...then I'm going to have to disagree with you.
This guy knows what hes talking about.
instancing doesnt disturb the feeling of a large community at all.
In fact it just helps you from being disturbed.
If the game is not instanced at all, it takes some of the fun away in my opinion.
Just another handsome boy graduate...
but for many people the mmorpg world is a parallel/alternate world to the rl world
instancing is like robbing a bank and bevore u enter it a copy of that bank is made
so more people can rob the same bank at the same time.
imho that completely destroys the feeling of a persistant world
some counter measures that work against the reason of instaciating like camping can be solved inside the game and were also presented in this thread:
if you want that a boss-mob is only be hunted by a handfull of people on an adventure let the questgiver appear randomly along their road and tell that bosses story. then give them a special blessing / item so only them can summon and kill it. its true that this may be an instaciated boss then but at least it fits in a persistant world
dont make a game where every quest/ exploit/ weapon stats is packed on a webpage
2 weeks after its release. make a world where things happen much more random where secrets can be explored and go away after they are explored. makea world that changes by players actions.
maybe it takes 3 or 10 times more intelligence/ efford and even some gms (that have earned this name and not mere helpdesk workers) but 1milion+ players cashing in 20 dollars a month should make that payable imho.
im saying that instancing is a workaround to a problem that should be solved thrue clever game design and not by "cheating" the feeling of a persistant world (same with farmers/botters/griefers)
if your bored, visit my blog at:
http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
Have you ever played any other big raid MMORPG? What you stated is EQ1, period. The purpose of big raids it gold and gear, if they didn't have that who'd do them? And don't say you would because DAOC has at least a half dozen raids per realm that no one does because the loot isn't good enough. On some servers some of the SI raids have never been finished, not a single time, and no one cares to even try. The Darkspire 1 group instance dungeon has some of the best gear in the game, and probably gets completed 10 or more times a day on the non-TOA servers.
And when it comes elitism EQ1 is FAR worse. Huge raid guilds that didn't non-guildes in the raid, but the loot was less and the number of people more. And of course the best thing: only one raid, after it was dead it didn't respawn for days.
WoW lets you have DOZENS of big raid guilds on the same raid at the same time, and they aren't in each others way.
My personal opinion is that instancing is a huge part of the future of MMOs, and what we see now are it's infant stages. Devs will be able to do much more it down the road, things we haven't even thought of yet. It still won't be in every game though, not every design calls for it.
Which one is more immersive, that you get a group of people together and make a plan and rob a bank, or that you get a group of people together and make a plan and show up at a bank, the tellers are shot, the customers ran out screaming, and money is all gone?
How I see it from my perspective. I have only played MMORPG's that offer PvP.
When the group of people that I hung with would decide to quest, the BEST part of it (even more than the loot the quest gave) would be playing with the "fear" that we might get jumped before completing it. I found myself actually hoping for a little excitement like this more and more b/c questing is semi boring. If we ran into a particularly hard guy or group of dudes trying to kill us and couldn't make it past them, we could put a call out to some other guys to come help take them out. This many times ended up with us forgetting about the quest and chasing / being chased by people for hours.
IMO a lot more fun than going into a "safe" monotinous dungeon to do a quest.
Fjorn
o.0 to the max! 8p