Personally, I am totally against instancing...sure, when you're in a dungeon with your level 10 friends and a level 70 ganks you...it sucks. But thats part of an MMORPG. I say for games like WoW it's totally needed, but mainly 'cus WoW is a giant carebear game. I liked it back in the day when you could decide between a carebear server and a PvP server. So in the crappy MMOs today...yaa...it's needed, but only to make up for their lack of providing an option for those who would rather RP than actually interact with others. But overall, I love running half way across the map with buddies, and just the journey there is fun, and going inside a cave, or temple with the risk of an enemy guild coming in for the same treasure makes it SO much more rewarding afterwards. Keeps you thinking about every threat...and overall...keeps the game fresh and exciting using the risk of the other players in the game. Ofcourse...I only PvP:RP, so this is purely a PvP aspect on the subject.
I'm sorry, but instancing to me, just means the creaters are too busy keeping the player happy with inconveniances, rather than a real world look at a game. I was an AVID player of Asheron's Call PvP server, Darktide. Having the risk of being owned by anyone was the best part! Exploring the woods, hiding from enemies, but the world was SO vast, you barely saw anyone else roaming in the woods, such as it is in real life...well..atleast when I go hiking or camping. But finding those unknown little dungeons, and remembering how to get there for later use on other chars or later fo rleveling. It was my favorite aspect of the game. Or, when there were popular hunting grounds, fighting for it was awsome, or having a couple people keep guard. For the record...Asheron's call did have portals to caves and what not, but anyone could enter the cave. I felt like that is what games have been missing now-a-days. What happened to questing?! Taking a blimp or riding a horse for 5 min is NOT a quest, or by any means an adventure. non instancing keep the creaters on their toes with new content...instead of fitting aportal ANYWHERE on a map.
I think Instancing is an incredibly powerful design tool but, like any other tool, it isn't good or bad in itself. What determines that is how the Devs decide to use that tool.
Instancing allows for a lot more depth in encounter design because you can control the environment to much higher degree than in an 'open world' setting. Want to have a huge monster burst through a wall as a surprise or have a boss fight take place on a crumbling bridge? All easily do-able in an instanced dungeon but a nightmare in a 'open world' setting.
The argument that instancing is unrealistic is just rediculous in any game which has monsters respawn. In an 'open world' setting you're not competing with other players to kill the Dark Dragon of Uber Loot for all time - you're competing to kill him this time today.
That said, I do think instancing does have a negative effect on community in MMORPGs but not for the reasons that most have said it does. The big problem is not the instancing itself but the itemisation in a lot of games. Games like WoW put pretty much all the best items inside instances, meaning that you have to do instance runs to improve your character, especially at end-game. This moves more and more players out of the wider game world and into small pocket-universes.
A better system would be to make the gear that drops in instances of the same quality as that found out in the world or crafted by players. Giving players multiple ways to get that gear out in the world is important too. Having the same item drop off many different high-end monsters would help avoid a lot of the problems of KSing and camping/waiting in line.
I think instancing should stay but as a story tool, not as the only possible way of advancing your character. If the loot's no better than stuff in the open world, most people will just do the instance once or twice to experience a more cinematic style of play for change.
Instancing is a bad excuse for not being able to think of a better solution for mmorpgs, plain and simple. Its an excuse probably because the managers of developers dont listen to the ideas of the gamers, all they do is look at the numbers and assume that since mmorpg #1, 2 and 3 did it, #84739 can succeed doing it too.
If the gaming world was designed so that character life were unpredictable and untrackable, you would see a revolution in mmorpgs. It will happen some day.. hopefully soon enough for us to play
For example.. Here's some hurdles that instancing fixes, but brings a new problem in most of the fixes.
1) Camping. Instancing fixes camping but turns the mmorpg into a fake mmorpg, effectively turning it into millions of small, non-persistant multiplayer worlds.
2) Ganking. Instancing fixes ganking, but annihilates pvp. Pvp in instancing is non existant, obviously.
3) Persistant, changing environment. Instances dont change, they dont help the community grow stronger.
4) Balance. Yes, most instances are balanced, but at what cost? Balanced to the point of boredom? Not sure how to kill that instanced boss? Go read the instructions at www.killalltheinstancebosseswiththisguideforonly2995.com
5) Time. Instances are extremely time consuming, especially the longer ones.
Yeah you're probably thinking, great, so there's all these problems, but how are we supposed to fix them? Here's a few solutions:
1) Randomness. Bring on the randomness!! Make the world so random that the online players cant even keep track of it, nevermind the online databases. Im serious! What if you could log in every day, and not know what the heck is going to happen next? What if most the steps you take were previously unexplored? Make it a daily change. Constant shift in content.
2) Tools. Give the community tools to build. In-game guild builders, world builders, persistant world changing tools.. tools, tools tools!!.... Stop trying to build the barn by yourself when a thousand people are watching you offering help, but you have only one hammer. For example, combine the user toolpower of NWN and merge it with the proven success of EVE.
3) Community. Encourage the community to grow as a whole! Give the power to the characters to be able to influence the community in positive ways. This goes hand in hand with tools, but it deserves its own number just because its so important.
4) Ban instancing.
5) Ban anyone who says the word instance.
6) Ban anyone who thinks of the word instance.
Please for the sake of the word MMORPG will a gaming company please save us from this blasphemy! NWN was more MMORPG than D&D online is going to be... What is going on? Who are they tring to fool?
Alternative to instancing / Alternative implementation of instancing - would that be a suitable topic for the rest of this discussion (which is growing a bit old in its current form)?
Alternative to instancing as a solution for boss camping:
Enable loot from boss only once per player. Make subsequent rewards for spawns of that boss significantly less substantial, and make sure there is content available elsewhere.
Enable the big reward only for the one who has the quest. This could be done in a number of ways. What I'm thinking is, there is a troll bothering the village, and the mayor wants you to bring its head. Now, anybody may kill the troll, and get a nice, oversized wooden club for it. Only you have the quest, and only your character has reason to cut its head off (therefore only your character will have the option). Should you drop the head / die, it will be gone, because "nobody would want it". The real reason: Otherwise, they could kill the troll, let you cut the head, and then take the head from your surprisingly dead body. (Either that, or you keep your stuff).
The reward is for delivering the head. If you want the reward, but the troll is out of your league, you can still get help, but they won't have the quest, and you have to make an offer they accept. (A share in the reward, or plain pay)
You could do the same with wolves crossing the river during winter (when it is frozen).
And you have the wizard who needs the eye of a black dragon for a mighty spell, and who'd think of doing such a gross thing..? If you bring him the eye, he will use some of its magic upon a weapon of your choice, giving it some draconic trait ONLY as long as it remains in your possession. (Wards off ebay to some extent) Also, you may only have one draconic weapon at any time. Little incentive to help him again there, enchanting a new weapon will disenchant the old.
You would need more content, and you would need it to be worthwhile and accessible. But maybe, just maybe, you wouldn't need to cut players off from randomly encountering eachother.
The future: Adellion Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants) Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens) Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
Enable the big reward only for the one who has the quest.
Very good ideas, and should be easy to accomplish, I've played some MMORPG's that do similar things to a small extent (if they did it in a larger extent I don't think we'd have this discussion). The item you get from the "boss" can be made no drop/no give except to the npc giving the reward. I think it could evolve even more to the point that the "boss" cannot even be attacked unless you start the quest (i.e. by talking to an npc who sends you on the quest) I've seen this done by portals not being able to be accessed until you speak with the npc.
This can be reduced even further by when you interact with the npc after completing the quest, he thanks you for helping him instead of sending you on the quest again. The dev's could put a day,week or month timer on it before he'll send you on the quest again.
The other way to help this I've also read from another post. Make the creatures outside the dungeons in the random spawn areas worth killing. One game that did a tremendous job on this was AC. I played on the Darktide PK server for several years and to this day, I still think it was the best MMORPG I've ever played.
Instances if used need to be only for raid level 30 person plus type events where multi guilds can be doing end game stuff at the same time just to keep them out of each others way. But the rest of the world should be just that a world. One of the things I look forward to in the upcoming Vanguard is as I explained to my sons "If I stand on this road and talk to any traveler that comes up this hill heading to town I will get to see and talk to everyone coming up this hill to town" there is no other fractal world where this path on this hill exists. I hate worlds that are really stacks of worlds all on the same server I want vast populations and people to talk to and yes even have them in my way a bit. Nothing like a run by buffing or heal I cast on a total stranger who is close to death. Random acts of kindness given or recived makes my day and has led to making me a new friend and thus enriching my on line life.
Someone above was talking about time sinks of 45 min boat rides in EQ back in the days of forgotten lore when great ships still sailed the seas of Norrath. Time is what you make of it 45 mins to sail across an ocean passage to a distant land in 1 game day seemed fine to me back then. Others saw this as a waste however I saw this as 45 mins to talk to the other passengers on the boat hear thier tales of adventure. Back then we often fell off (or through) a boat leaving you swimming as the boat sailed out of sight. Even this could be seen as fun if you made the trip and remained dry on the boat it was a good passage a you rejoiced. If you fell off and had to swim and find a dock to get on the next boat well travel across an ocean on a sail boat is a dangerous affair not to be undertaken by the faint of heart. Roleplay is not about saying thou and smite it is a way to view the world you are in. Travel in a game should be long and hard to cross great distances meet new and strange people and aquire the greatest loot of all in an online game a friend to adventure with for the years to come.
I personally dont have an issue with instances, if there is a point to them. Generally speaking i like my games to have a realistic feel when it comes to other players, when wandering around I like to see other groups running off and doing their thing. Where instances do serve a purpose however is to move forward a story or quest in which there really shouldnt be anyone else around. Say you have just accepted the quest to sneak into an enemy base and take out the leader.... it would be a bit dodgy if there were 15 other groups doing the same thing. I like the EverQuest 2 outlook on instances, where there are instances for special areas where only your party should be to complete a quest, but for the most part everyone shares the same world. Guild Wars also did a good job of instancing, however its not really a MMORPG - before I get bombarded with hate flames about how many people play Guild Wars, the reason I say it is not a MMORPG is because the game world is static, regardless of how many people are on your experience only changes based on who is in your party at the time. Basically it is an online multiplayer game with a HUB system which allows you to find parties tackling the same part of the story you are. Back to the point, Guild wars works because it is story driven, and other players would ruin the story, other games like World of Warcraft ruin it because they are just farming zones for high leveled guilded players.... so really rather than argueing the merits of instancing there should be more focus on WHY each game uses it. If it advances the plot in a logical way or there is a good reason for only your party being in the zone then by all means instance away, but an entirely instanced game cant really be classified as MMORPG, its just multiplayer with a HUB system.
Instancing is fine in small doses...Very small doses.
And as long as I don't need to gather a group of people to run through a required instance.
I have played WOW for a few months and never gone on a dungeon run, lack of time and real life obligations prevent me from sitting down and dedicating myself to two or three or four hours of a dungeon. I am all for instancing to cut down on lag but I want to be able to actually see other players in the game, I don't want a sterile environment where the only way I know that someone is online is because of chat or a /who command.
That aside games should have solo-able instances along with group required instances. And not once you reach uber-level but within the confines of the instances level requirements. I don't wish to be excluded from content just because I am unable to dedicate my life to a game.
Originally posted by evilastro Where instances do serve a purpose however is to move forward a story or quest in which there really shouldnt be anyone else around. Say you have just accepted the quest to sneak into an enemy base and take out the leader.... it would be a bit dodgy if there were 15 other groups doing the same thing.
Good point.
But this would work well with "my" approach too, I think - where the NPC will only let one person have the quest at any given time. It makes even better sense in this situation, since the one doing the hiring will not want to hire so many that they are bound to be discovered.
This could even be used to promote some degree of specialisation and significance to various players. Maybe you will need to have a reputation as a skilled and stealthy person before you get to have a go at this mission - through other missions. (Of course, stealth missions and fame don't combine all that well) Or the quest NPC might have a trial planned out that anybody may run, and the best contestant / next to finish, gets the mission. Anybody who get themselves involved in violence will never again get a quest from this NPC, because he can obviously not trust them.
Makes the setting realistic and still makes it meaningful. Furthermore, the details of the stealth mission are, of course, not released prior to assignment. Not every candidate will know where to go to ruin your day.
Maybe you could put a city under siege somewhere, open up for all players to join the army, and any member of the army gains points when a battle is won. Points that give your reputation as a warrior, which will open other missions to you.
Important: Those who want to fight a lot should choose battles, and enjoy the fights. It may be a grind, but if it is fun then it will be worth it.
Optional: Maybe there is the possibility of losing the city, in which case the army will engage in the even more daunting task of winning it back, and intercepting any supplies directed to the now besieged enemies. (Now you're laying the siege)
Of course, if you start bashing friends you're everybody's enemy at once, and that will get you booted, killed and labelled traitor, so its going to hurt your reputation (available to every NPC and player).
The wizard in the tower might give you different quests based on what you are known to excel in. If you're good with foraging and herbs he might start you off on finding some, and in return teach you some uses for it - wham, you're now a provider of healing potions / speed potions, whatever!
The game should be designed so that you may pursue more than one path, but maybe so that advancing your reputation in one area will slightly reduce your reputation for other traits, encouraging specialisation.
The future: Adellion Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants) Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens) Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
what is the point of having a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game, if you're just going to live in your own little bit of it and do your own little thing. Even if you get together with your mates and as a group you live in your own little bit and do your own little thing, you might as well just get a standalone game and connect with each other over the internet and play it. Don't waste your time and effort playing a MMORPG.
There are so many post here I breezed threw about 60 or so. So apologies if this has been mentioned.
My personally believe being in the industry since it's humble birth, is instancing as many have stated, have a purpose if used correctly. With the following example, you will see what I mean.
DDO perfect game to talk about instancing. Most who are PnP and MMO gamers have one thing in common, they are looking for adventure with other people. So let's again look at DDO, a game completely using instancing...
DDO concepts are fantastic, emphasis on in depth adventure with meaning and need of team work. This is what instancing is and should be in any game. However...
Instancing should be limited, let me take most of the PnP players back to the old game for a moment and those not familiar just follow along, you will understand. Ok, you start you roll up a character, give him/her stats and background, thinking how will you represent yourself to your fellow gamers. Then everyone meets up and the DM tells you about this vast world that you will be in. From the description, he tells you of towns and cities, history, stories then introduces you to your local current setting. Usually you start off in a local town with a pub. In this, each character (player) meets the other by role playing their part. While this can be done in an instance such as DDO , let me continue. You finally meet up with a gent looking for some help from some usually terrible tragedy. Help save someone , help defend something etc etc.
You then do your shopping and preparation then you and the party start on your journey. The journey is what makes an MMO an MMO. From the paths you take to the people you meet, wondering to a Tower or a dungeon is part of the adventure. Would you not want to say , in a game like DDO. Be introduced to such quest, but actually have to work your way to get there? No MMO does this to this day. Think of it, what MMO has the ability to give you a quest and along the way things happen to you? Sure you could put this in an instant like they do in Guild Wars but why? When even such events accurse, other elements not perceived (such as other players) get involved even furthering that event?
Sure many games such as EQ, DAOC etc have traveling were you can be attacked by random mobs , but take their RVR zone (realm vs realm like pvp). In this, not only do you have mobs to deal with , but players random ability to show up out of the blue and make your day allot harder. For those that will argue, "I don't like pvp" there is the non-pvp interaction as well. When a passer by saves your life (had that happen many times in eq) and all sorts or random interaction that you don't get in instances or as I would like to name them now "single player games". How can I call it this? because any game out there in the single player type of play usually have a mutliplayer aspect, in this players can get on a chat server and join up to play a round of whatever game they have installed. Up to usually 8 players unless connected to FPS such as Battlefield series, but we are not talking about FFS here.
What I would like to see, is a game that gives a group a quest and in this quest say it's in the far reaches of a certain place. During their travels , scripts activate to have "surprise attacks" or "random npcs" who help you on your journey. While in your open travels, you can converse and interact with other players who are not in your group, but still can react with you and you with them. After we reach our destination (dungeon, area, home what have you) our actual quest begins. This quest can be instanced or open. The difference is, it should be based off the quest and not the mechanics of the game. What do I mean?
If the quest say is "kill this guy" well since quest are repeatable by many, it shouldn't be a quest were I the player not doing said quest can see this mob. There for this quest should be instance. If the quest is "save so and so" then this could be a open quest, meaning no instance because all your doing is saving someone. Seeing this character being saved at the same location again can be just summed up to stupidity of that character. So basically, whatever we effect in the game world that would have a perm effect should be instance, while others "find this" "save that" could be in the open world were anyone could show up there.
Instancing should make since and not be used for the ease of development. It should be used to enhance the online experience not make it a single player game.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Originally posted by chaintm There are so many post here I breezed threw about 60 or so. So apologies if this has been mentioned.
My personally believe being in the industry since it's humble birth, is instancing as many have stated, have a purpose if used correctly. With the following example, you will see what I mean. DDO perfect game to talk about instancing. Most who are PnP and MMO gamers have one thing in common, they are looking for adventure with other people. So let's again look at DDO, a game completely using instancing... DDO concepts are fantastic, emphasis on in depth adventure with meaning and need of team work. This is what instancing is and should be in any game. However... Instancing should be limited, let me take most of the PnP players back to the old game for a moment and those not familiar just follow along, you will understand. Ok, you start you roll up a character, give him/her stats and background, thinking how will you represent yourself to your fellow gamers. Then everyone meets up and the DM tells you about this vast world that you will be in. From the description, he tells you of towns and cities, history, stories then introduces you to your local current setting. Usually you start off in a local town with a pub. In this, each character (player) meets the other by role playing their part. While this can be done in an instance such as DDO , let me continue. You finally meet up with a gent looking for some help from some usually terrible tragedy. Help save someone , help defend something etc etc. You then do your shopping and preparation then you and the party start on your journey. The journey is what makes an MMO an MMO. From the paths you take to the people you meet, wondering to a Tower or a dungeon is part of the adventure. Would you not want to say , in a game like DDO. Be introduced to such quest, but actually have to work your way to get there? No MMO does this to this day. Think of it, what MMO has the ability to give you a quest and along the way things happen to you? Sure you could put this in an instant like they do in Guild Wars but why? When even such events accurse, other elements not perceived (such as other players) get involved even furthering that event? Sure many games such as EQ, DAOC etc have traveling were you can be attacked by random mobs , but take their RVR zone (realm vs realm like pvp). In this, not only do you have mobs to deal with , but players random ability to show up out of the blue and make your day allot harder. For those that will argue, "I don't like pvp" there is the non-pvp interaction as well. When a passer by saves your life (had that happen many times in eq) and all sorts or random interaction that you don't get in instances or as I would like to name them now "single player games". How can I call it this? because any game out there in the single player type of play usually have a mutliplayer aspect, in this players can get on a chat server and join up to play a round of whatever game they have installed. Up to usually 8 players unless connected to FPS such as Battlefield series, but we are not talking about FFS here. What I would like to see, is a game that gives a group a quest and in this quest say it's in the far reaches of a certain place. During their travels , scripts activate to have "surprise attacks" or "random npcs" who help you on your journey. While in your open travels, you can converse and interact with other players who are not in your group, but still can react with you and you with them. After we reach our destination (dungeon, area, home what have you) our actual quest begins. This quest can be instanced or open. The difference is, it should be based off the quest and not the mechanics of the game. What do I mean? If the quest say is "kill this guy" well since quest are repeatable by many, it shouldn't be a quest were I the player not doing said quest can see this mob. There for this quest should be instance. If the quest is "save so and so" then this could be a open quest, meaning no instance because all your doing is saving someone. Seeing this character being saved at the same location again can be just summed up to stupidity of that character. So basically, whatever we effect in the game world that would have a perm effect should be instance, while others "find this" "save that" could be in the open world were anyone could show up there. Instancing should make since and not be used for the ease of development. It should be used to enhance the online experience not make it a single player game.
Garret is an idiot. From his comments her has limited mmorph time in and it looks like only 2 games. Instancing is fundement in a mmorph.
All he did was state the same argument over and over, it was week. I too am tired of fight to the end of a cave only to wait in line to fight the last spawn.
Or to wait in line and then have some one gank you kill. It does turn into a child fest of insults. Obviously Garret limit experience has saved himself from that.
I believe that instancing brings a controlled and scripted enviroment that developers can take advantage of the lore that's available for them.
It also creates a controlled measure to bring challenge to the game. For example, the gate event for Blackwing Lair is quite tough and requires immense cooperation and execution to overcome, but if it was opened to 1000 players, they could breeze through the place and there would be no challenge.
And I reaffirm the boss mob stealing that open dungeons have. Even the World Boss mobs in WoW are being camped and stolen unfairly.
If you aren't willing to be a part of a 40man team or guild, work for your items, and not expect to get everything that drops (casual players expect to get everything), you aren't entitled to high level equipment. We should be helping our realm/faction? Sure, we could tell them hints to overcome raid bosses and it doesn't take a genius to put up a raid schedule for their 40+ man guilds. But we're not going to let selfish people take whatever they want and make us their slaves.
I feel that this is a great thing for quwests. No wiating around twiddling your thumbs waiting for everything to repop just to finish a small quest that 50 other people are waiting for.
Some of us actually try to complete as many quests as we are able to. Just waiting around is a waste of game time.
I totally agree with Garrett again. In Ultima Online and other MMORPGS without instancing, I met most of my friends that way. If someone was in trouble, you could lend them a hand and that random player could become a friend. The opposite is true. If you found yourself in trouble, someone might come to your rescue and that guy might become your friend. Instancing takes that all away. You won't meet nearly as many people with it. There is noway in hell i'm playing a game that promotes instancing. 1 or 2 dungeons etc, ok. More than that and it just takes away from the whole experience.
Originally posted by yyrkoon_80 Garret is an idiot. From his comments her has limited mmorph time in and it looks like only 2 games. Instancing is fundement in a mmorph. All he did was state the same argument over and over, it was week. I too am tired of fight to the end of a cave only to wait in line to fight the last spawn. Or to wait in line and then have some one gank you kill. It does turn into a child fest of insults. Obviously Garret limit experience has saved himself from that. Instinsting rules and is needed!
Limited? This is the guy you should listen to. He played Ultima Online, the first true MMORPG which every new MMOPRG tries to live up to. Honestly, its a huge plus to have comments from someone who played UO in the late 90's. Vast knowledge there.
Instancing is not fundamental to a MMORPG, its fundamental to a RPG like Neverwinter Nights where you have a group a friends trying to complete a module. Like I stated above, maybe a little instancing is ok, mixed in. But the majority of a MMOPRG should be free reign. Thats what makes them so ... well multiplayer.
Ok I have played 3 mmorpg online WoW, FFXI and EQ2. Now WoW just has so much lag on ever sever everyone yell about it all the time. EQ 2 and FFXI almost never lag's. This is because of there zoned area. WoW a open game you never zone. So I think WoW just sucks big time. And I can't see why so many people like it.
So on the posting part. Little server maybe best or just have zone area's. If you are lagging in the game or keep getting kick off line. Then the game not really that much fun. I like it more to zone and wait 2 sec then to lag all the time on a server. And yes WoW very big has allot people on it. But wait for a good game come out. And I Think you will be seen allot people quit very fast. I think people are just waiting for a good game to come out.
And if you are new to online games. This is about the only game that lag's. so do not give up. There are allot mmorpg online the has no lag at all 2 big one's are FFXI and EQ 2
Now for Dungeons & dragons I hope it a good game. It been around for very long time and it a good game but the way people keep talking about it. make's me question the people who are making it. It dose not look good at all But just because of the name i will try it. If not you will see me in RF online It looks like they know what hay are doing.
Good luck all and happy game playing
name: jami or sime ever game i play this my name online
I tend to agree with Garret dungeons aren't like they once were back in UO fun, dangerous, and exciting!! Everything has been so dummied down since UO and it's sad there's no real adrenaline rush like there used to be. Here's a little list of things they've dummied down since UO.
1) Class based instead of Skill based
2) Death means little to nothing anymore
3) Dungeons have become stale, static, predictable, and no longer includes 3rd party interaction or interferance.
4) Shiny new loot has taken precedance and replaced the overall gameplay instead.
5) Games have became faction based and force you to choose sides no longer is it a option to be blue, grey, red, green, or orange. It's been limited to A vs B take your pick and if you have 2 friends that each play a different factions your forced to pick and choose between them.
6) Players can run infinately with out getting fatigued.
7) No longer when you run through another person or mob are you fatigued you can now seemly mend time and space and defiy the laws of physics alltogether. Thanks EQ for making it a problem and good job WoW for simply cloning EQ's screw ups and just trying to improve upon them. The fact is your solution is still screwed up.
8) Crafting has gone from a highly sought after aspect and economical aspect to mmo's to something of no real relivence and just something that sits on the back burner instead.
9) Travel changed from fast paced and group friendly point to point travel to some sort of indy 500 race to get from point A to point B. What do you expect tho with games with no real backbones behind them they need to slow down the pace of things as much as possible because the content they have is weak and they know it. Let's face it Molten Core and other high end dungeons aren't really all that difficult the hardest part is setting a time and getting enough players of the right class's together to rush/creep through the place.
10) PvP has changed from unpredicatble and never knowing what to expect and when to rock, paper , or siccors. What will they think up next rolling dice...oh wait nm that's how they determine loot.
11) Karma and Fame has change to honor and reputation grinding for items rather than a status thing and the only worries with them now are killing the wrong npc's. It used to be much more of a point system unlike the honor system which is purely about who plays in there little daycare centers aka the battlegrounds the most. Reputation system is basically along the same lines as well.
I'd think of more things but I'm tired and just don't feel like it but maybe ill edit it later and add to it.
Originally posted by Jade6 Well it's not like anyone is going to read this far, but I will add my opinion anyway. The bottom line is that those who ask for "open worlds" are not doing it for anything as noble as "the community", all they want is more opportunities to gank people. For them "community" equals "more opportunities to pray on others". Sadly, the fact still remains that the more PvP there is, the less of a community there is. This has proven absolutely true in every online game ever made.
I think you may have hit the nail on the head here.
DAoC is a prime example: listening in (watching in?) on the chat screens usually has tons of things about Keeps or Watchtowers being taken; help needed at such and such BG; etc.
Wander around the realms outside the BG's, and most of the time, there isn't anyone to be found. Why? Because it seems everyone is in the PvP (RvR) zones.
RvR is good, don't get me wrong. I know people who are killers (pun intended!) at that sort of thing. But there are others who just don't do well in that sort of situation. Now those people can choose to do one of several things:
1. Craft
2. Chat
3. PvE soloing at different areas, alone
4. Instancing
Number 3 is fun, you can pretty much see any mobs near you and have a good time. Especially if you know you only need 3 blues or 1 yellow to ding.
Number 4 is better, because in an instance dungeon, at least on DAoC, you can step around a corner and get whammed, not even see it coming. I've actually let out shocked yelps that have gotten the attention of my husband (and my startled cats!) when that has happened. No preparation, no 'pulling' one creature at the time, just total melee from the onset.
The *layouts* of the instances may be the same, but the content varies upon the task assigned, and that makes it fun....you never know what you're going to run into. Makes the game interesting, and challenging.
Instancing is fine in small doses...Very small doses.
And as long as I don't need to gather a group of people to run through a required instance.
I have played WOW for a few months and never gone on a dungeon run, lack of time and real life obligations prevent me from sitting down and dedicating myself to two or three or four hours of a dungeon. I am all for instancing to cut down on lag but I want to be able to actually see other players in the game, I don't want a sterile environment where the only way I know that someone is online is because of chat or a /who command.
That aside games should have solo-able instances along with group required instances. And not once you reach uber-level but within the confines of the instances level requirements. I don't wish to be excluded from content just because I am unable to dedicate my life to a game.
=Dan
The instances on DAoC are like that.
For every 10 levels, you have to go to a different location of the world, and talk to a different Taskmaster to get your instance task. And each task is different as well. One might be to kill the named mob boss; another might be to kill 9 of a certain creature; another might be to clear the instance completely.
AND, you can do this alone or with friends.
Its not always the same thing, and you never know what you're going to get.
It should be a challange just to walk around in the game world, the entire game world of WoW, apart from maybe 10% of it, is geared towards leveling your character. The other 10% is for when you are level 60 and you hardly ever return to those areas afterwards. No wonder so many people enjoy leveling characters as oppose to playing the end game "content", it's the only time you get to feel part of the world. The instances do not feel part of this world and playing in them neither do you. The quest chains are not well enough written into the game and the stories are weak and shallow and do not justify the instance in any way at all.
BGs is the worst offender of all instance types. It removes PvP from the real world and all excitement is gone from the game. All the PvPers that make an MMO special and unique for each realm has turned into a leader board worthy of an arcade game. If I met Gork or Sheepdog on Europa shard back in the good ol' days I would have deficated in my pants and then died. Do the same on WoW and you will probably wave because you are just about to go into MC and are far too busy to take down the best player on the server (or in WoW's case, the one with most time and a priest sidekick). Failing that you can always just join the BGs queue, wonderful invention! You get to join a virtual queue! Fantastic!
Developers have got to stop treating gamers like spoilt children and give games some realism. mmoRPG, yes "RPG", it is a roleplaying game and in order for it to be a roleplaying game it has to have relations to real life. In life good things happen and they feel good becuase they are balanced against the bad. Basically you could never have a good day if you didn't have the other side of the coin. This should be no different in virtual worlds and I want see some god damned developers realise this and start thinking about the possiblities. Remember bad things happen in games all the time, you can still make these bad things fun and intresting or may be motivating. In life you do not get instances so please stop insulting our intelligence and do away with them.
Instances are just developers way of segregating the population into nice eaily pleasable groups. It adds nothing to an MMORPG you might as well just allow everyone to run p2p instances and list them through gamespy then havew a ladder of who is best.
Is there a nice mob that give a nice loot. I gather party, head there, kill everything in the way, including others there that might be attempting to get it. And that's it. Good gear belongs to the one that can get IT, and hold to IT (avoid beeing killed for it). What's that bs about standing in lines or other things.
If I die in the process, then perhaps I was not worthy enough to have such a good item, PERIOD.
I tried WOW, didn't appeal to me, And the question would be ... Is it there a game that has a thing like I mentioned before ? I really don't have the finances to test all the mmorpgs out there.
Originally posted by Jade6 Well it's not like anyone is going to read this far, but I will add my opinion anyway. The bottom line is that those who ask for "open worlds" are not doing it for anything as noble as "the community", all they want is more opportunities to gank people. For them "community" equals "more opportunities to pray on others". Sadly, the fact still remains that the more PvP there is, the less of a community there is. This has proven absolutely true in every online game ever made.
I would disagree with you here fairly strongly. Lets take WoW as it is a prime example of the negative effects of instances.
When the game first started I grouped with so many random people every day that I met out in the game world. There was loads of real world PvP and our guild members would gladly aid anyone if meant a bit of a guild v guild battle. I remember thinking this is exactly the way it should be. Then you hit 60 and most level 60 are either ganking or doing MC for the first times with there guilds. At this point the games was at it's best the battles in Tarren Mill every night were so much fun and you began to really get to know who the strong and weak were on your server and you felt that even though there was nothing at stake that you really wanted to win the battle.
Then BGs came along...
Now the guildies who protected us are earning honor for the Defilers and are too busy for real world PvP. The noobs in the guild have to level up without help as we are all in instances trying to get decent items to PvP better. We no longer care about the battle as "i'll get honor anyway" and the fear and excitment of anything happening out of you control is gone.
Comments
Personally, I am totally against instancing...sure, when you're in a dungeon with your level 10 friends and a level 70 ganks you...it sucks. But thats part of an MMORPG. I say for games like WoW it's totally needed, but mainly 'cus WoW is a giant carebear game. I liked it back in the day when you could decide between a carebear server and a PvP server. So in the crappy MMOs today...yaa...it's needed, but only to make up for their lack of providing an option for those who would rather RP than actually interact with others. But overall, I love running half way across the map with buddies, and just the journey there is fun, and going inside a cave, or temple with the risk of an enemy guild coming in for the same treasure makes it SO much more rewarding afterwards. Keeps you thinking about every threat...and overall...keeps the game fresh and exciting using the risk of the other players in the game. Ofcourse...I only PvP:RP, so this is purely a PvP aspect on the subject.
I'm sorry, but instancing to me, just means the creaters are too busy keeping the player happy with inconveniances, rather than a real world look at a game. I was an AVID player of Asheron's Call PvP server, Darktide. Having the risk of being owned by anyone was the best part! Exploring the woods, hiding from enemies, but the world was SO vast, you barely saw anyone else roaming in the woods, such as it is in real life...well..atleast when I go hiking or camping. But finding those unknown little dungeons, and remembering how to get there for later use on other chars or later fo rleveling. It was my favorite aspect of the game. Or, when there were popular hunting grounds, fighting for it was awsome, or having a couple people keep guard. For the record...Asheron's call did have portals to caves and what not, but anyone could enter the cave. I felt like that is what games have been missing now-a-days. What happened to questing?! Taking a blimp or riding a horse for 5 min is NOT a quest, or by any means an adventure. non instancing keep the creaters on their toes with new content...instead of fitting aportal ANYWHERE on a map.
I think Instancing is an incredibly powerful design tool but, like any other tool, it isn't good or bad in itself. What determines that is how the Devs decide to use that tool.
Instancing allows for a lot more depth in encounter design because you can control the environment to much higher degree than in an 'open world' setting. Want to have a huge monster burst through a wall as a surprise or have a boss fight take place on a crumbling bridge? All easily do-able in an instanced dungeon but a nightmare in a 'open world' setting.
The argument that instancing is unrealistic is just rediculous in any game which has monsters respawn. In an 'open world' setting you're not competing with other players to kill the Dark Dragon of Uber Loot for all time - you're competing to kill him this time today.
That said, I do think instancing does have a negative effect on community in MMORPGs but not for the reasons that most have said it does. The big problem is not the instancing itself but the itemisation in a lot of games. Games like WoW put pretty much all the best items inside instances, meaning that you have to do instance runs to improve your character, especially at end-game. This moves more and more players out of the wider game world and into small pocket-universes.
A better system would be to make the gear that drops in instances of the same quality as that found out in the world or crafted by players. Giving players multiple ways to get that gear out in the world is important too. Having the same item drop off many different high-end monsters would help avoid a lot of the problems of KSing and camping/waiting in line.
I think instancing should stay but as a story tool, not as the only possible way of advancing your character. If the loot's no better than stuff in the open world, most people will just do the instance once or twice to experience a more cinematic style of play for change.
Instancing is a bad excuse for not being able to think of a better solution for mmorpgs, plain and simple. Its an excuse probably because the managers of developers dont listen to the ideas of the gamers, all they do is look at the numbers and assume that since mmorpg #1, 2 and 3 did it, #84739 can succeed doing it too.
If the gaming world was designed so that character life were unpredictable and untrackable, you would see a revolution in mmorpgs. It will happen some day.. hopefully soon enough for us to play
For example.. Here's some hurdles that instancing fixes, but brings a new problem in most of the fixes.
1) Camping. Instancing fixes camping but turns the mmorpg into a fake mmorpg, effectively turning it into millions of small, non-persistant multiplayer worlds.
2) Ganking. Instancing fixes ganking, but annihilates pvp. Pvp in instancing is non existant, obviously.
3) Persistant, changing environment. Instances dont change, they dont help the community grow stronger.
4) Balance. Yes, most instances are balanced, but at what cost? Balanced to the point of boredom? Not sure how to kill that instanced boss? Go read the instructions at www.killalltheinstancebosseswiththisguideforonly2995.com
5) Time. Instances are extremely time consuming, especially the longer ones.
Yeah you're probably thinking, great, so there's all these problems, but how are we supposed to fix them? Here's a few solutions:
1) Randomness. Bring on the randomness!! Make the world so random that the online players cant even keep track of it, nevermind the online databases. Im serious! What if you could log in every day, and not know what the heck is going to happen next? What if most the steps you take were previously unexplored? Make it a daily change. Constant shift in content.
2) Tools. Give the community tools to build. In-game guild builders, world builders, persistant world changing tools.. tools, tools tools!!.... Stop trying to build the barn by yourself when a thousand people are watching you offering help, but you have only one hammer. For example, combine the user toolpower of NWN and merge it with the proven success of EVE.
3) Community. Encourage the community to grow as a whole! Give the power to the characters to be able to influence the community in positive ways. This goes hand in hand with tools, but it deserves its own number just because its so important.
4) Ban instancing.
5) Ban anyone who says the word instance.
6) Ban anyone who thinks of the word instance.
Please for the sake of the word MMORPG will a gaming company please save us from this blasphemy! NWN was more MMORPG than D&D online is going to be... What is going on? Who are they tring to fool?
Alternative to instancing / Alternative implementation of instancing - would that be a suitable topic for the rest of this discussion (which is growing a bit old in its current form)?
Alternative to instancing as a solution for boss camping:
Enable loot from boss only once per player.
Make subsequent rewards for spawns of that boss significantly less substantial, and make sure there is content available elsewhere.
Enable the big reward only for the one who has the quest.
This could be done in a number of ways. What I'm thinking is, there is a troll bothering the village, and the mayor wants you to bring its head. Now, anybody may kill the troll, and get a nice, oversized wooden club for it. Only you have the quest, and only your character has reason to cut its head off (therefore only your character will have the option). Should you drop the head / die, it will be gone, because "nobody would want it". The real reason: Otherwise, they could kill the troll, let you cut the head, and then take the head from your surprisingly dead body. (Either that, or you keep your stuff).
The reward is for delivering the head. If you want the reward, but the troll is out of your league, you can still get help, but they won't have the quest, and you have to make an offer they accept. (A share in the reward, or plain pay)
You could do the same with wolves crossing the river during winter (when it is frozen).
And you have the wizard who needs the eye of a black dragon for a mighty spell, and who'd think of doing such a gross thing..? If you bring him the eye, he will use some of its magic upon a weapon of your choice, giving it some draconic trait ONLY as long as it remains in your possession. (Wards off ebay to some extent) Also, you may only have one draconic weapon at any time. Little incentive to help him again there, enchanting a new weapon will disenchant the old.
You would need more content, and you would need it to be worthwhile and accessible.
But maybe, just maybe, you wouldn't need to cut players off from randomly encountering eachother.
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
Alternatives to Instancing.
Enable loot from boss only once per player.
Enable the big reward only for the one who has the quest.
Very good ideas, and should be easy to accomplish, I've played some MMORPG's that do similar things to a small extent (if they did it in a larger extent I don't think we'd have this discussion). The item you get from the "boss" can be made no drop/no give except to the npc giving the reward. I think it could evolve even more to the point that the "boss" cannot even be attacked unless you start the quest (i.e. by talking to an npc who sends you on the quest) I've seen this done by portals not being able to be accessed until you speak with the npc.
This can be reduced even further by when you interact with the npc after completing the quest, he thanks you for helping him instead of sending you on the quest again. The dev's could put a day,week or month timer on it before he'll send you on the quest again.
The other way to help this I've also read from another post. Make the creatures outside the dungeons in the random spawn areas worth killing. One game that did a tremendous job on this was AC. I played on the Darktide PK server for several years and to this day, I still think it was the best MMORPG I've ever played.
Fjorn - no.0b
Instances if used need to be only for raid level 30 person plus type events where multi guilds can be doing end game stuff at the same time just to keep them out of each others way. But the rest of the world should be just that a world. One of the things I look forward to in the upcoming Vanguard is as I explained to my sons "If I stand on this road and talk to any traveler that comes up this hill heading to town I will get to see and talk to everyone coming up this hill to town" there is no other fractal world where this path on this hill exists. I hate worlds that are really stacks of worlds all on the same server I want vast populations and people to talk to and yes even have them in my way a bit. Nothing like a run by buffing or heal I cast on a total stranger who is close to death. Random acts of kindness given or recived makes my day and has led to making me a new friend and thus enriching my on line life.
Someone above was talking about time sinks of 45 min boat rides in EQ back in the days of forgotten lore when great ships still sailed the seas of Norrath. Time is what you make of it 45 mins to sail across an ocean passage to a distant land in 1 game day seemed fine to me back then. Others saw this as a waste however I saw this as 45 mins to talk to the other passengers on the boat hear thier tales of adventure. Back then we often fell off (or through) a boat leaving you swimming as the boat sailed out of sight. Even this could be seen as fun if you made the trip and remained dry on the boat it was a good passage a you rejoiced. If you fell off and had to swim and find a dock to get on the next boat well travel across an ocean on a sail boat is a dangerous affair not to be undertaken by the faint of heart. Roleplay is not about saying thou and smite it is a way to view the world you are in. Travel in a game should be long and hard to cross great distances meet new and strange people and aquire the greatest loot of all in an online game a friend to adventure with for the years to come.
~ Friends don't let friends play SOE games
I like the EverQuest 2 outlook on instances, where there are instances for special areas where only your party should be to complete a quest, but for the most part everyone shares the same world.
Guild Wars also did a good job of instancing, however its not really a MMORPG - before I get bombarded with hate flames about how many people play Guild Wars, the reason I say it is not a MMORPG is because the game world is static, regardless of how many people are on your experience only changes based on who is in your party at the time. Basically it is an online multiplayer game with a HUB system which allows you to find parties tackling the same part of the story you are. Back to the point, Guild wars works because it is story driven, and other players would ruin the story, other games like World of Warcraft ruin it because they are just farming zones for high leveled guilded players.... so really rather than argueing the merits of instancing there should be more focus on WHY each game uses it.
If it advances the plot in a logical way or there is a good reason for only your party being in the zone then by all means instance away, but an entirely instanced game cant really be classified as MMORPG, its just multiplayer with a HUB system.
Instancing is fine in small doses...Very small doses.
And as long as I don't need to gather a group of people to run through a required instance.
I have played WOW for a few months and never gone on a dungeon run, lack of time and real life obligations prevent me from sitting down and dedicating myself to two or three or four hours of a dungeon. I am all for instancing to cut down on lag but I want to be able to actually see other players in the game, I don't want a sterile environment where the only way I know that someone is online is because of chat or a /who command.
That aside games should have solo-able instances along with group required instances. And not once you reach uber-level but within the confines of the instances level requirements. I don't wish to be excluded from content just because I am unable to dedicate my life to a game.
=Dan
Good point.
But this would work well with "my" approach too, I think - where the NPC will only let one person have the quest at any given time. It makes even better sense in this situation, since the one doing the hiring will not want to hire so many that they are bound to be discovered.
This could even be used to promote some degree of specialisation and significance to various players. Maybe you will need to have a reputation as a skilled and stealthy person before you get to have a go at this mission - through other missions. (Of course, stealth missions and fame don't combine all that well) Or the quest NPC might have a trial planned out that anybody may run, and the best contestant / next to finish, gets the mission. Anybody who get themselves involved in violence will never again get a quest from this NPC, because he can obviously not trust them.
Makes the setting realistic and still makes it meaningful. Furthermore, the details of the stealth mission are, of course, not released prior to assignment. Not every candidate will know where to go to ruin your day.
Maybe you could put a city under siege somewhere, open up for all players to join the army, and any member of the army gains points when a battle is won. Points that give your reputation as a warrior, which will open other missions to you.
Important: Those who want to fight a lot should choose battles, and enjoy the fights. It may be a grind, but if it is fun then it will be worth it.
Optional: Maybe there is the possibility of losing the city, in which case the army will engage in the even more daunting task of winning it back, and intercepting any supplies directed to the now besieged enemies. (Now you're laying the siege)
Of course, if you start bashing friends you're everybody's enemy at once, and that will get you booted, killed and labelled traitor, so its going to hurt your reputation (available to every NPC and player).
The wizard in the tower might give you different quests based on what you are known to excel in. If you're good with foraging and herbs he might start you off on finding some, and in return teach you some uses for it - wham, you're now a provider of healing potions / speed potions, whatever!
The game should be designed so that you may pursue more than one path, but maybe so that advancing your reputation in one area will slightly reduce your reputation for other traits, encouraging specialisation.
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
There are so many post here I breezed threw about 60 or so. So apologies if this has been mentioned.
My personally believe being in the industry since it's humble birth, is instancing as many have stated, have a purpose if used correctly. With the following example, you will see what I mean.
DDO perfect game to talk about instancing. Most who are PnP and MMO gamers have one thing in common, they are looking for adventure with other people. So let's again look at DDO, a game completely using instancing...
DDO concepts are fantastic, emphasis on in depth adventure with meaning and need of team work. This is what instancing is and should be in any game. However...
Instancing should be limited, let me take most of the PnP players back to the old game for a moment and those not familiar just follow along, you will understand. Ok, you start you roll up a character, give him/her stats and background, thinking how will you represent yourself to your fellow gamers. Then everyone meets up and the DM tells you about this vast world that you will be in. From the description, he tells you of towns and cities, history, stories then introduces you to your local current setting. Usually you start off in a local town with a pub. In this, each character (player) meets the other by role playing their part. While this can be done in an instance such as DDO , let me continue. You finally meet up with a gent looking for some help from some usually terrible tragedy. Help save someone , help defend something etc etc.
You then do your shopping and preparation then you and the party start on your journey. The journey is what makes an MMO an MMO. From the paths you take to the people you meet, wondering to a Tower or a dungeon is part of the adventure. Would you not want to say , in a game like DDO. Be introduced to such quest, but actually have to work your way to get there? No MMO does this to this day. Think of it, what MMO has the ability to give you a quest and along the way things happen to you? Sure you could put this in an instant like they do in Guild Wars but why? When even such events accurse, other elements not perceived (such as other players) get involved even furthering that event?
Sure many games such as EQ, DAOC etc have traveling were you can be attacked by random mobs , but take their RVR zone (realm vs realm like pvp). In this, not only do you have mobs to deal with , but players random ability to show up out of the blue and make your day allot harder. For those that will argue, "I don't like pvp" there is the non-pvp interaction as well. When a passer by saves your life (had that happen many times in eq) and all sorts or random interaction that you don't get in instances or as I would like to name them now "single player games". How can I call it this? because any game out there in the single player type of play usually have a mutliplayer aspect, in this players can get on a chat server and join up to play a round of whatever game they have installed. Up to usually 8 players unless connected to FPS such as Battlefield series, but we are not talking about FFS here.
What I would like to see, is a game that gives a group a quest and in this quest say it's in the far reaches of a certain place. During their travels , scripts activate to have "surprise attacks" or "random npcs" who help you on your journey. While in your open travels, you can converse and interact with other players who are not in your group, but still can react with you and you with them. After we reach our destination (dungeon, area, home what have you) our actual quest begins. This quest can be instanced or open. The difference is, it should be based off the quest and not the mechanics of the game. What do I mean?
If the quest say is "kill this guy" well since quest are repeatable by many, it shouldn't be a quest were I the player not doing said quest can see this mob. There for this quest should be instance. If the quest is "save so and so" then this could be a open quest, meaning no instance because all your doing is saving someone. Seeing this character being saved at the same location again can be just summed up to stupidity of that character. So basically, whatever we effect in the game world that would have a perm effect should be instance, while others "find this" "save that" could be in the open world were anyone could show up there.
Instancing should make since and not be used for the ease of development. It should be used to enhance the online experience not make it a single player game.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Well put...thats all I gotta say...lol.
Garret is an idiot. From his comments her has limited mmorph time in and it looks like only 2 games. Instancing is fundement in a mmorph.
All he did was state the same argument over and over, it was week. I too am tired of fight to the end of a cave only to wait in line to fight the last spawn.
Or to wait in line and then have some one gank you kill. It does turn into a child fest of insults. Obviously Garret limit experience has saved himself from that.
Instinsting rules and is needed!
I believe that instancing brings a controlled and scripted enviroment that developers can take advantage of the lore that's available for them.
It also creates a controlled measure to bring challenge to the game. For example, the gate event for Blackwing Lair is quite tough and requires immense cooperation and execution to overcome, but if it was opened to 1000 players, they could breeze through the place and there would be no challenge.
And I reaffirm the boss mob stealing that open dungeons have. Even the World Boss mobs in WoW are being camped and stolen unfairly.
If you aren't willing to be a part of a 40man team or guild, work for your items, and not expect to get everything that drops (casual players expect to get everything), you aren't entitled to high level equipment. We should be helping our realm/faction? Sure, we could tell them hints to overcome raid bosses and it doesn't take a genius to put up a raid schedule for their 40+ man guilds. But we're not going to let selfish people take whatever they want and make us their slaves.
I feel that this is a great thing for quwests. No wiating around twiddling your thumbs waiting for everything to repop just to finish a small quest that 50 other people are waiting for.
Some of us actually try to complete as many quests as we are able to. Just waiting around is a waste of game time.
Aaah......
the pain!!
Limited? This is the guy you should listen to. He played Ultima Online, the first true MMORPG which every new MMOPRG tries to live up to. Honestly, its a huge plus to have comments from someone who played UO in the late 90's. Vast knowledge there.
Instancing is not fundamental to a MMORPG, its fundamental to a RPG like Neverwinter Nights where you have a group a friends trying to complete a module. Like I stated above, maybe a little instancing is ok, mixed in. But the majority of a MMOPRG should be free reign. Thats what makes them so ... well multiplayer.
Hello all
Ok I have played 3 mmorpg online WoW, FFXI and EQ2. Now WoW just has so much lag on ever sever everyone yell about it all the time. EQ 2 and FFXI almost never lag's. This is because of there zoned area. WoW a open game you never zone. So I think WoW just sucks big time. And I can't see why so many people like it.
So on the posting part. Little server maybe best or just have zone area's. If you are lagging in the game or keep getting kick off line. Then the game not really that much fun. I like it more to zone and wait 2 sec then to lag all the time on a server. And yes WoW very big has allot people on it. But wait for a good game come out. And I Think you will be seen allot people quit very fast. I think people are just waiting for a good game to come out.
And if you are new to online games. This is about the only game that lag's. so do not give up. There are allot mmorpg online the has no lag at all 2 big one's are FFXI and EQ 2
Now for Dungeons & dragons I hope it a good game. It been around for very long time and it a good game but the way people keep talking about it. make's me question the people who are making it. It dose not look good at all But just because of the name i will try it. If not you will see me in RF online It looks like they know what hay are doing.
Good luck all and happy game playing
name: jami or sime
ever game i play this my name online
I tend to agree with Garret dungeons aren't like they once were back in UO fun, dangerous, and exciting!! Everything has been so dummied down since UO and it's sad there's no real adrenaline rush like there used to be. Here's a little list of things they've dummied down since UO.
1) Class based instead of Skill based
2) Death means little to nothing anymore
3) Dungeons have become stale, static, predictable, and no longer includes 3rd party interaction or interferance.
4) Shiny new loot has taken precedance and replaced the overall gameplay instead.
5) Games have became faction based and force you to choose sides no longer is it a option to be blue, grey, red, green, or orange. It's been limited to A vs B take your pick and if you have 2 friends that each play a different factions your forced to pick and choose between them.
6) Players can run infinately with out getting fatigued.
7) No longer when you run through another person or mob are you fatigued you can now seemly mend time and space and defiy the laws of physics alltogether. Thanks EQ for making it a problem and good job WoW for simply cloning EQ's screw ups and just trying to improve upon them. The fact is your solution is still screwed up.
8) Crafting has gone from a highly sought after aspect and economical aspect to mmo's to something of no real relivence and just something that sits on the back burner instead.
9) Travel changed from fast paced and group friendly point to point travel to some sort of indy 500 race to get from point A to point B. What do you expect tho with games with no real backbones behind them they need to slow down the pace of things as much as possible because the content they have is weak and they know it. Let's face it Molten Core and other high end dungeons aren't really all that difficult the hardest part is setting a time and getting enough players of the right class's together to rush/creep through the place.
10) PvP has changed from unpredicatble and never knowing what to expect and when to rock, paper , or siccors. What will they think up next rolling dice...oh wait nm that's how they determine loot.
11) Karma and Fame has change to honor and reputation grinding for items rather than a status thing and the only worries with them now are killing the wrong npc's. It used to be much more of a point system unlike the honor system which is purely about who plays in there little daycare centers aka the battlegrounds the most. Reputation system is basically along the same lines as well.
I'd think of more things but I'm tired and just don't feel like it but maybe ill edit it later and add to it.
I think you may have hit the nail on the head here.
DAoC is a prime example: listening in (watching in?) on the chat screens usually has tons of things about Keeps or Watchtowers being taken; help needed at such and such BG; etc.
Wander around the realms outside the BG's, and most of the time, there isn't anyone to be found. Why? Because it seems everyone is in the PvP (RvR) zones.
RvR is good, don't get me wrong. I know people who are killers (pun intended!) at that sort of thing. But there are others who just don't do well in that sort of situation. Now those people can choose to do one of several things:
1. Craft
2. Chat
3. PvE soloing at different areas, alone
4. Instancing
Number 3 is fun, you can pretty much see any mobs near you and have a good time. Especially if you know you only need 3 blues or 1 yellow to ding.
Number 4 is better, because in an instance dungeon, at least on DAoC, you can step around a corner and get whammed, not even see it coming. I've actually let out shocked yelps that have gotten the attention of my husband (and my startled cats!) when that has happened. No preparation, no 'pulling' one creature at the time, just total melee from the onset.
The *layouts* of the instances may be the same, but the content varies upon the task assigned, and that makes it fun....you never know what you're going to run into. Makes the game interesting, and challenging.
Originally posted by Wolfpack75
Instancing is fine in small doses...Very small doses.
And as long as I don't need to gather a group of people to run through a required instance.
I have played WOW for a few months and never gone on a dungeon run, lack of time and real life obligations prevent me from sitting down and dedicating myself to two or three or four hours of a dungeon. I am all for instancing to cut down on lag but I want to be able to actually see other players in the game, I don't want a sterile environment where the only way I know that someone is online is because of chat or a /who command.
That aside games should have solo-able instances along with group required instances. And not once you reach uber-level but within the confines of the instances level requirements. I don't wish to be excluded from content just because I am unable to dedicate my life to a game.
=Dan
For every 10 levels, you have to go to a different location of the world, and talk to a different Taskmaster to get your instance task. And each task is different as well. One might be to kill the named mob boss; another might be to kill 9 of a certain creature; another might be to clear the instance completely.
AND, you can do this alone or with friends.
Its not always the same thing, and you never know what you're going to get.
It should be a challange just to walk around in the game world, the entire game world of WoW, apart from maybe 10% of it, is geared towards leveling your character. The other 10% is for when you are level 60 and you hardly ever return to those areas afterwards. No wonder so many people enjoy leveling characters as oppose to playing the end game "content", it's the only time you get to feel part of the world. The instances do not feel part of this world and playing in them neither do you. The quest chains are not well enough written into the game and the stories are weak and shallow and do not justify the instance in any way at all.
BGs is the worst offender of all instance types. It removes PvP from the real world and all excitement is gone from the game. All the PvPers that make an MMO special and unique for each realm has turned into a leader board worthy of an arcade game. If I met Gork or Sheepdog on Europa shard back in the good ol' days I would have deficated in my pants and then died. Do the same on WoW and you will probably wave because you are just about to go into MC and are far too busy to take down the best player on the server (or in WoW's case, the one with most time and a priest sidekick). Failing that you can always just join the BGs queue, wonderful invention! You get to join a virtual queue! Fantastic!
Developers have got to stop treating gamers like spoilt children and give games some realism. mmoRPG, yes "RPG", it is a roleplaying game and in order for it to be a roleplaying game it has to have relations to real life. In life good things happen and they feel good becuase they are balanced against the bad. Basically you could never have a good day if you didn't have the other side of the coin. This should be no different in virtual worlds and I want see some god damned developers realise this and start thinking about the possiblities. Remember bad things happen in games all the time, you can still make these bad things fun and intresting or may be motivating. In life you do not get instances so please stop insulting our intelligence and do away with them.
Instances are just developers way of segregating the population into nice eaily pleasable groups. It adds nothing to an MMORPG you might as well just allow everyone to run p2p instances and list them through gamespy then havew a ladder of who is best.
Thania
instancing sucks, consensual PvP sucks
Is there a nice mob that give a nice loot. I gather party, head there, kill everything in the way, including others there that might be attempting to get it. And that's it. Good gear belongs to the one that can get IT, and hold to IT (avoid beeing killed for it). What's that bs about standing in lines or other things.
If I die in the process, then perhaps I was not worthy enough to have such a good item, PERIOD.
I tried WOW, didn't appeal to me, And the question would be ... Is it there a game that has a thing like I mentioned before ? I really don't have the finances to test all the mmorpgs out there.
Peace, over & out.
I would disagree with you here fairly strongly. Lets take WoW as it is a prime example of the negative effects of instances.
When the game first started I grouped with so many random people every day that I met out in the game world. There was loads of real world PvP and our guild members would gladly aid anyone if meant a bit of a guild v guild battle. I remember thinking this is exactly the way it should be. Then you hit 60 and most level 60 are either ganking or doing MC for the first times with there guilds. At this point the games was at it's best the battles in Tarren Mill every night were so much fun and you began to really get to know who the strong and weak were on your server and you felt that even though there was nothing at stake that you really wanted to win the battle.
Then BGs came along...
Now the guildies who protected us are earning honor for the Defilers and are too busy for real world PvP. The noobs in the guild have to level up without help as we are all in instances trying to get decent items to PvP better. We no longer care about the battle as "i'll get honor anyway" and the fear and excitment of anything happening out of you control is gone.