Originally posted by daeandor By the way, the point of my sharing that information is merely to provide the viewpoint that mmorpg would not want to risk having to hire lawyers to defend against SOE if SOE notified them over the weekend via thier lawyers. If I were one of the site owners and I received a letter from SOE's lawyers I think I would consider deleting the thread in question. Pissing off a few anonymous posters seems like a no-brainer if you truely are faced with a civil action for which you have no money for.
If a media organization is unable to get at the truth, and unable to protect the truth, from those who are willing to resort to force in order to hide the truth, then the media organization fails in its mission.
If this is truly the case, then the ones who own and run MMORPG.com have to get themselves in a position to where they are able to do their mission. If I were running things, I'd play this event differently, and try to get something out of them in exchange for our compliance. That's what friends who want to grow the industry do.
If they don't want to do this, then I could use that to my advantage as well. Like that fellow who criticized Mourning on his website did.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Beatnik59 Taking MMORPG.com to court would me, in my opinion, the worst thing SOE could do, and the best thing that could ever happen to MMORPG.com. SOE can no longer lie in a court of law, and would have to publish the whole story behind this NGE and their own decisions as a provider. The issue would rock the games industry to its foundation, and get the real mainstream press to do a real investigation into these practices by SOE and others. Perhaps it would even be examined by Congress.
I doubt this is the direction a civil suit would go, your hope for exposure of the SOE injustice is unlikely. First of all, a civil suit would not see the courts for quite some time and most likely SWG would be long gone. Second, in a civil suit, the only "evidence" that would appear would be whether or not the information contained in the post was obtained through legal means and then proof that SOE informed mmorpg.com of the unauthorized posting of private corporate information. In the end, as far as the staff here is concerned, they are in a lose lose situation.
Just to give you something to think about: ENRON lied, cheated, and stole billions from their stockholders, employees, banks, stockbrokers, and even the State of California. They got caught in 2001, and just the other week a whole five people got convicted of crimes related to the scandal, only one of which was actually a former Enron employee. There have been 16 guilty pleas that resulted in 3 people serving in jail and the rest primarily getting deals to testify against the 7 remaining people under indictment. Arthur Anderson got hammered as a corporation but the decision was overturned. ENRON is the pinacle of corporate criminal activity and other than a few mentions in the second page of news, it has garnered very little change in corporate America and only minor mention in Congressional law other than an ongoing federal investigation.
Originally posted by daeandor Well, I am going to throw a bone out to you guys to chew on. I am not a lawyer, but I really wish a *real* one would look at this: (all my info was gleamed off of the DOJ Cybercrime site) Under United States Code Title 18 (Crimes and Criminal Procedure), there are several references to obtaining information electronically without authorization by the computer (network) owner is a crime. Bear in mind that Title 18 is a very old Code, but it continuously gets annotated with new criminal law. Initially the 90's references pertain to gaining unauthorized information from specific government and financial institutions. However, more recent additions actually expands the definition to include crimes against any "facility through which an electronic communication service is provided." (USC 18 Chapter 121 SS 2710) Unauthorized access is defined as, "(1) intentionally accesses without authorization a facility through which an electronic communication service is provided; or (2) intentionally exceeds an authorization to access that facility." These are specifically in reference to stored communication data. So the bottom line is, there is criminal law that may be applicable in reference to obtaining the server population data if SOE were to insist that that data was considered "protected" or "for authorized users only." Whether or not you want to define it as "hacking" does not matter, the USC 18 does not appear to specifically address the term hacking, much less define it in the code as far as I can tell from my reading.
This is a correct cut and paste. Trust me if anyone tried to take a run AT the servers AT sony then this would come into play.
The thing that is NOT covered under this reference is exactly how the data was found. Sony sent the data to the users computer and it was stored on the users system. A users of thier game has to agree to accept this data to play the game.
Now i am waiting for the advocates of SoE to say well yes but you agreed to the EULA,m therefore anythign sent from sony to your system is really thiers. I would respond to this after lolokign at the specific EULA that SoE uses, sadly the server page at sony that lays this out is down.
"This agreement describes the terms under which Sony Online Entertainment Inc. offers you access to an account. It can be reached and reviewed at: www.starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/tos.jsp
type Status report
message/tos.jsp
descriptionThe requested resource (/tos.jsp) is not available."
but from a personal stand point, if it is on my computer then i am responsible for it, not sony.
I am not sure if I would classify an anonymous post on a forum a good source for a media organization Beatnik59. It's kind of like being in a public bathroom stall and hearing someone at the urinals saying something that could prove that SOE was lying. You step out of your stall and the talker is gone. So when you post it on your website, is it fact or hearsay?
I'm just saying that the staff here is not a multi-million dollar corporation and that sometimes life sucks to be the little guy.
Absolutely 100% correct: It's not hacking But SOE could EASILY tie up MMORPG.COM in legal fees that this site couldn't possibly afford long enough to shut them down if they got their panties in a wad. As to those who say an explanation would be nice? The OP got an email explaining why it was removed. While I agree that calling this "hacking" is a REALLY loose interpretation of how the person who got the information did it the OP himself used the term 'hacking' in his post. Which is probably what set the staff off in a flurry of action. Not to mention the tips on how to go about doing it.
There's just no way SOE was going to let a thread like that lie on the largest independent MMORPG board. What I find absolutlely hysterical is the fact that whoever sent that letter to the OP WOULD HAVE HAD TO KNOW HOW HE GOT THAT INFO. Anyone working on this website should be familiar with packet sniffing.
Beg to differ. I deal with Web Admins every day. Most of them couldn't use a packet sniffer to save their lives. And a lot wouldn't be able to tell you what a packet sniffer is. Knowing how to write HTML, ASP or even PERL or Java doesn't mean you know how to do network captures, traces or digs. Not saying the moderator couldn't have known about packet sniffers, etc. But it's very likely he didn't. After all the mods aren't even web admins. They're just forum mods. Some may have networking experience but I doubt very seriously that all of 'em do. I'd even wager that most of 'em don't.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
MMORPG.com is being irresponsible in their deletion of the thread They have deleted it without sufficient cause.
If SOE was going around sending cease and desist letters (which they arent) then other sites would not still have the information posted, like IGNvault, Gamespot and LUCAS FORUM. The information is still provided in those places. SOE did not contact MMORPG.com, MMORPG.com simply removed it because they are ignorant. There_was_nothing_illegal_in_the_post.
The truth is: SOE doesnt have the legal right to control the information presented at other sites. The information posted is protected under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998.
Again, there is no reason to believe SOE is involved in any way. Other sites are still presenting the information, MMORPG.com happens to be the only one who removed it. MMORPGs letter to me made no mention of any letter, law or SOE.
Simply, someone (a fanboy) probably blew a whistle claiming that it was illegal and the staff believed him. This speaks very poorly of the MMORPG.com staff, who have lost a lot of credibility and damaged their reputation with this action.
Originally posted by daeandor I am not sure if I would classify an anonymous post on a forum a good source for a media organization Beatnik59. It's kind of like being in a public bathroom stall and hearing someone at the urinals saying something that could prove that SOE was lying. You step out of your stall and the talker is gone. So when you post it on your website, is it fact or hearsay? I'm just saying that the staff here is not a multi-million dollar corporation and that sometimes life sucks to be the little guy.
Is it credible? Maybe not as credible as the official numbers coming from SOE. The problem is, they won't give us that, so we have to assume that what we know is truly the case, unless better evidence comes around.
It costs a company postage to mail a nasty letter from the legal team. Its a cheap way to get what they want, but trust me, they cannot bring any lawsuit to bear. If they had a case, they would just bring the case, and not bother with the letter at all.
But here is the thing about nasty letters from legal teams. If it works once, they know it will work again. Only next time, they'll use it to ask for more outlandish things. I can just picture the time when they send the editors a nasty letter over a game review, saying they misrepresented their product when they said it was buggy. Or when a whistle blower has ironclad proof of something SOE doesn't want the public to know.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Actually.. I posted it on IGN vault and it was deleted in the first pass of $OE threats. It is back probably due to mod laziness.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Come on guys, is it any real suprise they deleted it? Look at how many posts En1gma made before the NGE, and look at how many he has made after... Coincidence? Yeah right, I bet En1 thinks the NGE blows too, but hasn't said anything for fear of reprisals from SOE...
As a whole, the MMORPG.com staff is almost non-existent in it's most active forum, practicioners of CYA... Someone should repost the numbers and act like they are taking a wild guess at what each of the server populations are, and use the numbers provided in the missing thread... I mean, how could they delete that, right? If someone is honestly guessing, no matter how uncanny it is that he/she is right with every last number, if you claim it is a guess they CANNOT delete it... This way, you can still have the desired effect...
Originally posted by Shayde Actually.. I posted it on IGN vault and it was deleted in the first pass of $OE threats. It is back probably due to mod laziness.
Actually no, IGNvault deleted the first two posts because its a fanboy run site (thanks for spreading the word btw). Its pretty evident that they are a small time operation and once they saw the post they panicked. It didnt have anything to do with any fear of SOE or legal issues.
Once IGNvault saw discussion of the population numbers on other sites, they knew they wouldnt get away with just deleting it. So, they eventually put a copy up on their site the sad part is peopel probably think they are impartial because of it, when the reality is quite the opposite.
Its a fanboy stronghold over there where any ideas or opinions that challenge their own get censored.
Well, in all honesty, posting the numbers again would be beating a dead horse. Those who were interested are now informed - those who didn't believe them or their source got their 2 cents in and anyone else can easily find them on the private links that many of us can provide. I started this thread because I had hoped for an official answer as to why they were pulled. In some respects, that was answered when the OP from the original thread posted his warning letter.
Those numbers got their deserved attention and even more importantly the equally compelling reaction. Like someone else said, if it were any run of the mill rumor - SOE wouldn't have even wasted the time to type out a threat. Those numbers gave us a window into the rotting carcas that is painted pretty with such words as "growing" and "star warsy". They can't even acknowledge their concern.
As for MMORPG staff, En1gma and the crew run the site to to inform us and do a good job playing the neutral ground. It is paid for by ads and such. A legal fight and being cut off by a power (substandard but still) from future info wouldn't be helpful in what would amount to be putting all of your chips on a post about # of players. I applaud that they lasted as long as they did and recognizing this - it reveals to me something I didn't want to see. I was hurt by the fact that even away from their game- SOE still has some form of power in my life. I wanted to treat them like the bad neighbors you moved away from and over here in this forum - I thought it was my safe haven to speak my mind. Sadly, SOE still has some reach and it just reopened wounds from the CU.
What next? Well, like them, I will get smarter. I won't walk away from the fight. I will post and choose my words correctly. Any questionable info will be housed on a private site and referenced to with disclaimers. My arguments will be clear, concise and detailed. I will hold my own against their crafted denials and then move onto the next part. AND if there is a God out there, a company will produce a game that will fill the hole in my heart that SWG made and I and the rest of us will too busy playing to give a refresh on the SWG Plug Pulled newsflash when that day comes. MMORPG will cover both the successor and the defeated and life will go on.
Kefkah out.
PS. Still want that warning though. Would put that as a badge right next to my master ranger one.
You know.. I think I finally realized why so many of us just keep hitting $OE with bad press and criticism.
Not because we were wronged. That's clear. There's no dening that.
It is because we haven't taken our pound of flesh out of $OE. Because we want them to feel pain over it, and no matter what proof that they are hurting we put out there, they continue to act like everything is peachy. We want them to feel our pain. We want them to feel the repercussions of their actions.
But they keep chugging along with the happy face. They keep claiming theres "tons" of players out there and everything is nothing but farting Zippidy-doo-dah 24/7.
Then numbers like this come out proving they are wrong.
So we press on.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I just want to step in here to let you know what happened. No, SOE did not threaten legal action against us. The reason that we chose to delete the thread was because the thread was based on information which, in the words of the original poster, was hacked. It doesn't matter how it was done, the fact of the matter is that it was private information.
We understand that people are frustrated with SOE. That isn't the point.
It is our policy to remove a thread in its entirety if the OP violates our rules. I understand that there was a good discussion going, and you should feel free to renew it. Simply leave the numbers out of the conversation.
Also, in the future, please do not re-post private emails from MMORPG.com staff or anyone else on the public forums without prior consent. If you have an issue with or question about a moderator decision, please contact me at stradden@mmorpg.com or the moderator directly.
Cheers,
Jon Wood News Manager, MMORPG.com stradden@mmorpg.com
Originally posted by Stradden OK Guys,I just want to step in here to let you know what happened. No, SOE did not threaten legal action against us. The reason that we chose to delete the thread was because the thread was based on information which, in the words of the original poster, was hacked. It doesn't matter how it was done, the fact of the matter is that it was private information. We understand that people are frustrated with SOE. That isn't the point. It is our policy to remove a thread in its entirety if the OP violates our rules. I understand that there was a good discussion going, and you should feel free to renew it. Simply leave the numbers out of the conversation. Also, in the future, please do not re-post private emails from MMORPG.com staff or anyone else on the public forums without prior consent. If you have an issue with or question about a moderator decision, please contact me at stradden@mmorpg.com or the moderator directly. Cheers,Jon Wood News Manager, MMORPG.com stradden@mmorpg.com
Stradden,
Firstly, thank you for finally explaining to us what your justification was for my thread deletion.
Just because the word hacked was used doesnt necessarily mean thats what happened or thats how the information was obtained. The word hack is used quite liberally--often used to describe any number of activities, such as shortcuts or workarounds, which arent actually hacks but people often call them that. Its quite often used in a very loose sense. Im the original poster of that thread and thats exactly why I put the word hack inside parenthesis. If you read the whole thread I think you might have understood that.
The information I posted is part of the public domain, which means no-one owns it. Thus, its not private information, its public. There were all sorts of examples in the thread explaining this in more detail, because the exact question of the word "hack" did come up. Again, if the only reason you have for deleting the thread was because it contained the word hack, (which was placed inside parenthesis, by me, at the time of the post to indicate that it wasnt meant to be thought of as the literal interpretation of the words meaning) then I have to say that seems like a very weak reason.
That thread had over a hundred replies with over 4 thousand views and was 20 pages long.... I do wish to renew it for the sake of discussion, *with the numbers included, but *without the word "hack" to end all of the confusion. Because lets be honest here, based on what you just told us, you wouldnt have ever deleted the thread if it wasnt for the word hack.
Furthermore, just so we are clear: I posted the e-mail, from MMORPG.com to me, because I wasnt given a valid e-mail address to reply to, or even given the name of what moderator deleted my thread. To avoid that happening in the future, I suggest adding that sort of information to those types of e-mails.
Thanks,
P.S. As a precedent, I want to make it known: other gaming websites, specifically IGNvault, Gamespot and LUCAS FORUM arent deleting the post. In fact, the moderator of the LUCAS FORUM has been actively engaging in the discussion in the thread there. Its absolutly clear, to every rational person, that the moderators at these major sites dont see a problem with anything contained in my post, yet MMORPG.com is the only one who does, why?
Those other 3 sites hold the same exact community standards and policies as MMORPG.com, yet MMORPG.com is the only site that censors my post.
Please re-evaluate your position, let me repost the numbers in the manner I mentioned, and this community will applaud you for it.
Originally posted by Shayde You know.. I think I finally realized why so many of us just keep hitting $OE with bad press and criticism. Not because we were wronged. That's clear. There's no dening that. It is because we haven't taken our pound of flesh out of $OE. Because we want them to feel pain over it, and no matter what proof that they are hurting we put out there, they continue to act like everything is peachy. We want them to feel our pain. We want them to feel the repercussions of their actions. But they keep chugging along with the happy face. They keep claiming theres "tons" of players out there and everything is nothing but farting Zippidy-doo-dah 24/7. Then numbers like this come out proving they are wrong. So we press on.
Its not just SOE, Shayde. There are alot of people out there that owe me and you (you in the general sense) a pound of flesh. SOE is just such a good target. Like a deer that keeps blundering into your scope.
Originally posted by Bissrok So... is it okay if we just don't say hacked? Like if we had said:I was just thinking... I bet that, on Friday evenings, [delete]See? I didn't hack anything, I'm only making vague guesses. A few days ago I just 'had a vision' that I consider to be proof that SWG is near death.Edited by Lepidus, 02/08/06 - 8:08am
That is most definitely not what he said. Please, respect our decision and not repost the numbers.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Originally posted by Stradden OK Guys, I just want to step in here to let you know what happened. No, SOE did not threaten legal action against us. The reason that we chose to delete the thread was because the thread was based on information which, in the words of the original poster, was hacked. It doesn't matter how it was done, the fact of the matter is that it was private information. We understand that people are frustrated with SOE. That isn't the point. It is our policy to remove a thread in its entirety if the OP violates our rules. I understand that there was a good discussion going, and you should feel free to renew it. Simply leave the numbers out of the conversation. Also, in the future, please do not re-post private emails from MMORPG.com staff or anyone else on the public forums without prior consent. If you have an issue with or question about a moderator decision, please contact me at stradden@mmorpg.com or the moderator directly. Cheers, Jon Wood News Manager, MMORPG.com stradden@mmorpg.com
wow that is the most irresponsible journalism ive ever seen in my life. how new are you at this? theres no flippin way youve got a degree in this. someone with a basic associates degree would know better.
hello did you even BOTHER to check sources? friggin journalism in high school teaches this. its perfectly fine to report heresay. there was no proof one way or the other as to the validity of that topic. do you really think heresay has that much bearing and depth?
in that case, i know youre a member of al queada. its been posted on the internet now w/o any proof whatsoever just like those numbers. now, do you honestly expect the secret service to be banging down your door because i posted that?
news manager? i just dont understand how you got that job with such complete lack of understanding as to what reporting the news is supposed to be about. this was no expose' or investigative piece. it was a thread that started with "a guy told me...".
just stop, resign, go into marketting or something where its common practice to take things and spin them, theres no room for you whatsoever in the world of journalism.
you sir, in my opinion, are a nazi.
Games i'm playing right now...
"In short, I thought NGE was a very bad idea" - Raph Koster talking about NGE on his blog at raphkoster.com
I do understand where MMORPG.com are coming from. What MMORPG.com Staff did was called damage control, they wanted to nip any problem in the bud before any issue arises. Most server providers when they receive a Cease and Desist order, will shut a server down before they do anything else. And its a pain to get them to put it back up. And companies like SOE love sending C&D's out like they are candy. And SOE's Legal Team could beat MMORPG.com's legal team like a lvl 60 warlock beating a lvl 1 shaman. It seems SOE hasn't made an issue out of the ordeal but they could have if they wanted to, and the probably would have gone for a big target to scare all the little guys from deleting the information.
About the only issue that I wish we could have kept was the discussion and removal of the numbers and other information. The discussion was pretty much dead at the point it was deleted, but there was a lot of information and interesting points in it that weren't a problem. But I see where the Staff are coming from, it was easier and better to just delete the thread.
We'll ignore for the moment that you violated every rule we have about personal attacks. Jon is completely qualified, professional and good at his job. However, your tirade against his journalistic integrity has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.
Jon was not reporting this as news. Jon removed a post from a message board. Let me quote the original post in the thread:
"of course i shouldn't have this info but i have friends who like to hack."
Let me make this absolutely clear. We do not allow discussion of illegal activity on our message boards. Allowing posters to do this would A) get us in trouble, be irresponsible and C) foster the kind of board community that we do not wish to play host to.
Now, you can debate the merits of whether packet sniffing is hacking and whether they came by this information illegally until you're blue in the face if you wish, but it does not change the original post where the message outright says the information came from friends who like to hack. Just in case you want to argue that, the dictionary defines hack as "to gain access to (a computer file or network) illegally or without authorization".
Thus, the original post is against the rules we ask our moderators to enforce.
This has nothing to do with covering up the information or any other garbage. If you want to know how we as a site feel about the NGE, please check into our features and read the editorial I wrote on the NGE, our interview with LA/SOE at the time and our review of the changes. I am proud of the honest, objective coverage our site gave this issue at the time. For you to call into question our integrity and suggest what you did is frankly insulting and wildly inaccurate.
If you do not feel you can follow our board rules, feel free to post somewhere else.
As always, we appreciate any civil and constructive feedback our community may have. However, I will not sit here and listen to you attack our integrity over something so clearly against the nature of the community we provide.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Thunderheart has picked a thread he likes. Neither he nor SOE have the ability to enage in a dialog of its customers choosing. No, they don't have to. But, then again, for those of us that know better, it is really lame.
As a double standard, the thread itself, is inapropriately on the Game Play Discussion anyway.
Comments
We are talking about this thread, right?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm/setstart/1/loadthread/65784/loadforum/433/loadclass/103
SWG Rumors--Salt to taste
If a media organization is unable to get at the truth, and unable to protect the truth, from those who are willing to resort to force in order to hide the truth, then the media organization fails in its mission.
If this is truly the case, then the ones who own and run MMORPG.com have to get themselves in a position to where they are able to do their mission. If I were running things, I'd play this event differently, and try to get something out of them in exchange for our compliance. That's what friends who want to grow the industry do.
If they don't want to do this, then I could use that to my advantage as well. Like that fellow who criticized Mourning on his website did.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I doubt this is the direction a civil suit would go, your hope for exposure of the SOE injustice is unlikely. First of all, a civil suit would not see the courts for quite some time and most likely SWG would be long gone. Second, in a civil suit, the only "evidence" that would appear would be whether or not the information contained in the post was obtained through legal means and then proof that SOE informed mmorpg.com of the unauthorized posting of private corporate information. In the end, as far as the staff here is concerned, they are in a lose lose situation.
Just to give you something to think about: ENRON lied, cheated, and stole billions from their stockholders, employees, banks, stockbrokers, and even the State of California. They got caught in 2001, and just the other week a whole five people got convicted of crimes related to the scandal, only one of which was actually a former Enron employee. There have been 16 guilty pleas that resulted in 3 people serving in jail and the rest primarily getting deals to testify against the 7 remaining people under indictment. Arthur Anderson got hammered as a corporation but the decision was overturned. ENRON is the pinacle of corporate criminal activity and other than a few mentions in the second page of news, it has garnered very little change in corporate America and only minor mention in Congressional law other than an ongoing federal investigation.
This is a correct cut and paste. Trust me if anyone tried to take a run AT the servers AT sony then this would come into play.
The thing that is NOT covered under this reference is exactly how the data was found. Sony sent the data to the users computer and it was stored on the users system. A users of thier game has to agree to accept this data to play the game.
Now i am waiting for the advocates of SoE to say well yes but you agreed to the EULA,m therefore anythign sent from sony to your system is really thiers. I would respond to this after lolokign at the specific EULA that SoE uses, sadly the server page at sony that lays this out is down.
"This agreement describes the terms under which Sony Online Entertainment Inc. offers you access to an account. It can be reached and reviewed at: www.starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/tos.jsp
type Status report
message /tos.jsp
description The requested resource (/tos.jsp) is not available."
but from a personal stand point, if it is on my computer then i am responsible for it, not sony.
I am not sure if I would classify an anonymous post on a forum a good source for a media organization Beatnik59. It's kind of like being in a public bathroom stall and hearing someone at the urinals saying something that could prove that SOE was lying. You step out of your stall and the talker is gone. So when you post it on your website, is it fact or hearsay?
I'm just saying that the staff here is not a multi-million dollar corporation and that sometimes life sucks to be the little guy.
There's just no way SOE was going to let a thread like that lie on the largest independent MMORPG board. What I find absolutlely hysterical is the fact that whoever sent that letter to the OP WOULD HAVE HAD TO KNOW HOW HE GOT THAT INFO. Anyone working on this website should be familiar with packet sniffing.
Beg to differ. I deal with Web Admins every day. Most of them couldn't use a packet sniffer to save their lives. And a lot wouldn't be able to tell you what a packet sniffer is. Knowing how to write HTML, ASP or even PERL or Java doesn't mean you know how to do network captures, traces or digs. Not saying the moderator couldn't have known about packet sniffers, etc. But it's very likely he didn't. After all the mods aren't even web admins. They're just forum mods. Some may have networking experience but I doubt very seriously that all of 'em do. I'd even wager that most of 'em don't.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
MMORPG.com is being irresponsible in their deletion of the thread They have deleted it without sufficient cause.
If SOE was going around sending cease and desist letters (which they arent) then other sites would not still have the information posted, like IGNvault, Gamespot and LUCAS FORUM. The information is still provided in those places. SOE did not contact MMORPG.com, MMORPG.com simply removed it because they are ignorant. There_was_nothing_illegal_in_the_post.
The truth is: SOE doesnt have the legal right to control the information presented at other sites. The information posted is protected under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998.
Again, there is no reason to believe SOE is involved in any way. Other sites are still presenting the information, MMORPG.com happens to be the only one who removed it.
MMORPGs letter to me made no mention of any letter, law or SOE.
Simply, someone (a fanboy) probably blew a whistle claiming that it was illegal and the staff believed him. This speaks very poorly of the MMORPG.com staff, who have lost a lot of credibility and damaged their reputation with this action.
Is it credible? Maybe not as credible as the official numbers coming from SOE. The problem is, they won't give us that, so we have to assume that what we know is truly the case, unless better evidence comes around.
It costs a company postage to mail a nasty letter from the legal team. Its a cheap way to get what they want, but trust me, they cannot bring any lawsuit to bear. If they had a case, they would just bring the case, and not bother with the letter at all.
But here is the thing about nasty letters from legal teams. If it works once, they know it will work again. Only next time, they'll use it to ask for more outlandish things. I can just picture the time when they send the editors a nasty letter over a game review, saying they misrepresented their product when they said it was buggy. Or when a whistle blower has ironclad proof of something SOE doesn't want the public to know.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Actually.. I posted it on IGN vault and it was deleted in the first pass of $OE threats. It is back probably due to mod laziness.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Come on guys, is it any real suprise they deleted it? Look at how many posts En1gma made before the NGE, and look at how many he has made after... Coincidence? Yeah right, I bet En1 thinks the NGE blows too, but hasn't said anything for fear of reprisals from SOE...
As a whole, the MMORPG.com staff is almost non-existent in it's most active forum, practicioners of CYA... Someone should repost the numbers and act like they are taking a wild guess at what each of the server populations are, and use the numbers provided in the missing thread... I mean, how could they delete that, right? If someone is honestly guessing, no matter how uncanny it is that he/she is right with every last number, if you claim it is a guess they CANNOT delete it... This way, you can still have the desired effect...
Actually no, IGNvault deleted the first two posts because its a fanboy run site (thanks for spreading the word btw). Its pretty evident that they are a small time operation and once they saw the post they panicked. It didnt have anything to do with any fear of SOE or legal issues.
Once IGNvault saw discussion of the population numbers on other sites, they knew they wouldnt get away with just deleting it. So, they eventually put a copy up on their site the sad part is peopel probably think they are impartial because of it, when the reality is quite the opposite.
Its a fanboy stronghold over there where any ideas or opinions that challenge their own get censored.
Well, in all honesty, posting the numbers again would be beating a dead horse. Those who were interested are now informed - those who didn't believe them or their source got their 2 cents in and anyone else can easily find them on the private links that many of us can provide. I started this thread because I had hoped for an official answer as to why they were pulled. In some respects, that was answered when the OP from the original thread posted his warning letter.
Those numbers got their deserved attention and even more importantly the equally compelling reaction. Like someone else said, if it were any run of the mill rumor - SOE wouldn't have even wasted the time to type out a threat. Those numbers gave us a window into the rotting carcas that is painted pretty with such words as "growing" and "star warsy". They can't even acknowledge their concern.
As for MMORPG staff, En1gma and the crew run the site to to inform us and do a good job playing the neutral ground. It is paid for by ads and such. A legal fight and being cut off by a power (substandard but still) from future info wouldn't be helpful in what would amount to be putting all of your chips on a post about # of players. I applaud that they lasted as long as they did and recognizing this - it reveals to me something I didn't want to see. I was hurt by the fact that even away from their game- SOE still has some form of power in my life. I wanted to treat them like the bad neighbors you moved away from and over here in this forum - I thought it was my safe haven to speak my mind. Sadly, SOE still has some reach and it just reopened wounds from the CU.
What next? Well, like them, I will get smarter. I won't walk away from the fight. I will post and choose my words correctly. Any questionable info will be housed on a private site and referenced to with disclaimers. My arguments will be clear, concise and detailed. I will hold my own against their crafted denials and then move onto the next part. AND if there is a God out there, a company will produce a game that will fill the hole in my heart that SWG made and I and the rest of us will too busy playing to give a refresh on the SWG Plug Pulled newsflash when that day comes. MMORPG will cover both the successor and the defeated and life will go on.
Kefkah out.
PS. Still want that warning though. Would put that as a badge right next to my master ranger one.
You know.. I think I finally realized why so many of us just keep hitting $OE with bad press and criticism.
Not because we were wronged. That's clear. There's no dening that.
It is because we haven't taken our pound of flesh out of $OE. Because we want them to feel pain over it, and no matter what proof that they are hurting we put out there, they continue to act like everything is peachy. We want them to feel our pain. We want them to feel the repercussions of their actions.
But they keep chugging along with the happy face. They keep claiming theres "tons" of players out there and everything is nothing but farting Zippidy-doo-dah 24/7.
Then numbers like this come out proving they are wrong.
So we press on.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
so, we're what?
The Sanitary Towel of Truth?
I'm sorry. That was so totally, totally uncalled for. But sometimes I get these images in my head...
OK Guys,
I just want to step in here to let you know what happened. No, SOE did not threaten legal action against us. The reason that we chose to delete the thread was because the thread was based on information which, in the words of the original poster, was hacked. It doesn't matter how it was done, the fact of the matter is that it was private information.
We understand that people are frustrated with SOE. That isn't the point.
It is our policy to remove a thread in its entirety if the OP violates our rules. I understand that there was a good discussion going, and you should feel free to renew it. Simply leave the numbers out of the conversation.
Also, in the future, please do not re-post private emails from MMORPG.com staff or anyone else on the public forums without prior consent. If you have an issue with or question about a moderator decision, please contact me at stradden@mmorpg.com or the moderator directly.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
News Manager, MMORPG.com
stradden@mmorpg.com
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Stradden,
Firstly, thank you for finally explaining to us what your justification was for my thread deletion.
Just because the word hacked was used doesnt necessarily mean thats what happened or thats how the information was obtained. The word hack is used quite liberally--often used to describe any number of activities, such as shortcuts or workarounds, which arent actually hacks but people often call them that. Its quite often used in a very loose sense. Im the original poster of that thread and thats exactly why I put the word hack inside parenthesis. If you read the whole thread I think you might have understood that.
The information I posted is part of the public domain, which means no-one owns it. Thus, its not private information, its public. There were all sorts of examples in the thread explaining this in more detail, because the exact question of the word "hack" did come up. Again, if the only reason you have for deleting the thread was because it contained the word hack, (which was placed inside parenthesis, by me, at the time of the post to indicate that it wasnt meant to be thought of as the literal interpretation of the words meaning) then I have to say that seems like a very weak reason.
That thread had over a hundred replies with over 4 thousand views and was 20 pages long.... I do wish to renew it for the sake of discussion, *with the numbers included, but *without the word "hack" to end all of the confusion. Because lets be honest here, based on what you just told us, you wouldnt have ever deleted the thread if it wasnt for the word hack.
Furthermore, just so we are clear: I posted the e-mail, from MMORPG.com to me, because I wasnt given a valid e-mail address to reply to, or even given the name of what moderator deleted my thread. To avoid that happening in the future, I suggest adding that sort of information to those types of e-mails.
Thanks,
P.S. As a precedent, I want to make it known: other gaming websites, specifically IGNvault, Gamespot and LUCAS FORUM arent deleting the post. In fact, the moderator of the LUCAS FORUM has been actively engaging in the discussion in the thread there. Its absolutly clear, to every rational person, that the moderators at these major sites dont see a problem with anything contained in my post, yet MMORPG.com is the only one who does, why?
Those other 3 sites hold the same exact community standards and policies as MMORPG.com, yet MMORPG.com is the only site that censors my post.
Please re-evaluate your position, let me repost the numbers in the manner I mentioned, and this community will applaud you for it.
lol i didnt finish reading the post >_< maybe i should stop being soooo lazy :P
So... is it okay if we just don't say hacked? Like if we had said:
I was just thinking... I bet that, on Friday evenings, [delete]
See? I didn't hack anything, I'm only making vague guesses. A few days ago I just 'had a vision' that I consider to be proof that SWG is near death.
Edited by Lepidus, 02/08/06 - 8:08am
A** Still Raw From Your Last SWG Subscription? Come join us at RLMMO.com
Obraik,
Your comments are so odd they are hard to respond to.
That is most definitely not what he said. Please, respect our decision and not repost the numbers.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
wow that is the most irresponsible journalism ive ever seen in my life. how new are you at this? theres no flippin way youve got a degree in this. someone with a basic associates degree would know better.
hello did you even BOTHER to check sources? friggin journalism in high school teaches this. its perfectly fine to report heresay. there was no proof one way or the other as to the validity of that topic. do you really think heresay has that much bearing and depth?
in that case, i know youre a member of al queada. its been posted on the internet now w/o any proof whatsoever just like those numbers. now, do you honestly expect the secret service to be banging down your door because i posted that?
news manager? i just dont understand how you got that job with such complete lack of understanding as to what reporting the news is supposed to be about. this was no expose' or investigative piece. it was a thread that started with "a guy told me...".
just stop, resign, go into marketting or something where its common practice to take things and spin them, theres no room for you whatsoever in the world of journalism.
you sir, in my opinion, are a nazi.
Games i'm playing right now...
"In short, I thought NGE was a very bad idea" - Raph Koster talking about NGE on his blog at raphkoster.com
And Godwin's Law completes the thread.
I do understand where MMORPG.com are coming from. What MMORPG.com Staff did was called damage control, they wanted to nip any problem in the bud before any issue arises. Most server providers when they receive a Cease and Desist order, will shut a server down before they do anything else. And its a pain to get them to put it back up. And companies like SOE love sending C&D's out like they are candy. And SOE's Legal Team could beat MMORPG.com's legal team like a lvl 60 warlock beating a lvl 1 shaman. It seems SOE hasn't made an issue out of the ordeal but they could have if they wanted to, and the probably would have gone for a big target to scare all the little guys from deleting the information.
About the only issue that I wish we could have kept was the discussion and removal of the numbers and other information. The discussion was pretty much dead at the point it was deleted, but there was a lot of information and interesting points in it that weren't a problem. But I see where the Staff are coming from, it was easier and better to just delete the thread.
cerebix,
We'll ignore for the moment that you violated every rule we have about personal attacks. Jon is completely qualified, professional and good at his job. However, your tirade against his journalistic integrity has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.
Jon was not reporting this as news. Jon removed a post from a message board. Let me quote the original post in the thread:
"of course i shouldn't have this info but i have friends who like to hack."
Let me make this absolutely clear. We do not allow discussion of illegal activity on our message boards. Allowing posters to do this would A) get us in trouble,
be irresponsible and C) foster the kind of board community that we do not wish to play host to.
Now, you can debate the merits of whether packet sniffing is hacking and whether they came by this information illegally until you're blue in the face if you wish, but it does not change the original post where the message outright says the information came from friends who like to hack. Just in case you want to argue that, the dictionary defines hack as "to gain access to (a computer file or network) illegally or without authorization".
Thus, the original post is against the rules we ask our moderators to enforce.
This has nothing to do with covering up the information or any other garbage. If you want to know how we as a site feel about the NGE, please check into our features and read the editorial I wrote on the NGE, our interview with LA/SOE at the time and our review of the changes. I am proud of the honest, objective coverage our site gave this issue at the time. For you to call into question our integrity and suggest what you did is frankly insulting and wildly inaccurate.
If you do not feel you can follow our board rules, feel free to post somewhere else.
As always, we appreciate any civil and constructive feedback our community may have. However, I will not sit here and listen to you attack our integrity over something so clearly against the nature of the community we provide.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Thunderheart has picked a thread he likes. Neither he nor SOE have the ability to enage in a dialog of its customers choosing. No, they don't have to. But, then again, for those of us that know better, it is really lame.
As a double standard, the thread itself, is inapropriately on the Game Play Discussion anyway.