Clearly, you have taken SOEs side here and focused on a very narrow definiton of the word hack/hacking/etc. As a professional developer, I personally take offense at your deliberatly mis-using the word.
The poster was very clear about his method, which frankly, was more important. He published data that Sony at the time was freely and in the clear publishing to every computer that connected and logged in.
It is very disappointing to see this action taken by this board for a very flimsy reason that makes you all appear no better than SOE.
Originally posted by Lepidus However, I will not sit here and listen to you attack our integrity over something so clearly against the nature of the community we provide.
When a posters legit post is deleted / edit for flimsy reasons, a lack of integrity is being shown. Therefore, no integrity is being attacked the presumption is mistaken that it was there.
At the end of the day, I sleep well knowing I acted with honesty and integrity.
And further more, in terms of the Moral High Ground, Sony Blew it. They deserve all the legitamte trashing supported by *Facts* that the get. In deleting factual information that was honestly obtain, this board has devalued every reader here.
Originally posted by Rabia Originally posted by Lepidus However, I will not sit here and listen to you attack our integrity over something so clearly against the nature of the community we provide.
When a posters legit post is deleted / edit for flimsy reasons, a lack of integrity is being shown. Therefore, no integrity is being attacked the presumption is mistaken that it was there.
At the end of the day, I sleep well knowing I acted with honesty and integrity.
And further more, in terms of the Moral High Ground, Sony Blew it. They deserve all the legitamte trashing supported by *Facts* that the get. In deleting factual information that was honestly obtain, this board has devalued every reader here.
The original post made zero mention of methods. Quite the contrary it said: "of course i should'nt have this info but i have friends who like to hack." So the person the original poster was quoting admits they should not have the information and says they have friends who got it by hacking. Then the original poster goes on to use our forums to promote further "hacking" against SOE. Actually writing what the next target should be and telling hackers to take note. So to be clear, you believe we should not remove threads that use our boards to organize illegal activity?
We are not taking any sides on the debate of the ethics of the NGE or any other business. In fact, you can read my full opinions in this editorial published at the time (http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setview/features/loadFeature/325/gameID/6). What we are saying is that the thread violated the terms of our website. Then went on to encourage further illegal activity.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
An "offical" mmorpg opinon was stated and read. If I had stated I knew how to read the IP payload of a Datagram and post that information, it would have been incorrectly labeled as hacking. Just because the orignial poster was technically and legally less savy doesn't mean he was actually wrong in having or posting the data inspite of the his negative opinon of himself.
In the end, by deleting legit data, a side has been taken and lets face it, the Media is more concerned about advertiser income rather than over readership.
Overall, the opinon was wrong for the reasons given. And, as an Engineer, it is hard for me to sit by and see media outlets manipulate facts.
Dana, just out of curiosity, would the thread have been deleted if this line was not in the the OP? "of course i should'nt have this info but i have friends who like to hack."
Originally posted by Lepidus Let me make this absolutely clear. We do not allow discussion of illegal activity on our message boards. Allowing posters to do this would A) get us in trouble, be irresponsible and C) foster the kind of board community that we do not wish to play host to. This has nothing to do with covering up the information or any other garbage. If you want to know how we as a site feel about the NGE, please check into our features and read the editorial I wrote on the NGE, our interview with LA/SOE at the time and our review of the changes. I am proud of the honest, objective coverage our site gave this issue at the time. For you to call into question our integrity and suggest what you did is frankly insulting and wildly inaccurate. As always, we appreciate any civil and constructive feedback our community may have. However, I will not sit here and listen to you attack our integrity over something so clearly against the nature of the community we provide.
I think it's a reasonable presumption, based on the activity the thread had received and how long it was allowed to exist prior to being deleted, that the decision to remove it was in direct response to an outside request, from someone at SOE or LA or persons representing their interests. That would indicate that MMORPG.com did not believe it to be a violation of rules originally. Perhaps after review and discussion you decided otherwise.
In order to preserve the integrity of MMORPG.com and promote the objective and honest coverage you state you are proud of and therefore desire, will you go on record and confirm or deny that a request was made to remove the offending thread by SOE or LA or parties representing their interests?
Jon said SOE did not threaten legal action, but threats to pull advertisement or simply a suggestion of unhappiness with the thread by interested parties, would be coercive enough.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Jorev Originally posted by Lepidus Let me make this absolutely clear. We do not allow discussion of illegal activity on our message boards. Allowing posters to do this would A) get us in trouble, be irresponsible and C) foster the kind of board community that we do not wish to play host to. This has nothing to do with covering up the information or any other garbage. If you want to know how we as a site feel about the NGE, please check into our features and read the editorial I wrote on the NGE, our interview with LA/SOE at the time and our review of the changes. I am proud of the honest, objective coverage our site gave this issue at the time. For you to call into question our integrity and suggest what you did is frankly insulting and wildly inaccurate. As always, we appreciate any civil and constructive feedback our community may have. However, I will not sit here and listen to you attack our integrity over something so clearly against the nature of the community we provide. I think it's a reasonable presumption, based on the activity the thread had received and how long it was allowed to exist prior to being deleted, that the decision to remove it was in direct response to an outside request, from someone at SOE or LA or persons representing their interests. That would indicate that MMORPG.com did not believe it to be a violation of rules originally. Perhaps after review and discussion you decided otherwise. In order to preserve the integrity of MMORPG.com and promote the objective and honest coverage you state you are proud of and therefore desire, will you go on record and confirm or deny that a request was made to remove the offending thread by SOE or LA or parties representing their interests? Jon said SOE did not threaten legal action, but threats to pull advertisement or simply a suggestion of unhappiness with the thread by interested parties, would be coercive enough.
SOE, LA or any other outside force had absolutely no impact on our decision to remove these threads.
We believe we've made our position absolutely clear on this topic. We will no longer be posting in this thread.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Originally posted by Lepidus Originally posted by Jorev Originally posted by Lepidus Let me make this absolutely clear. We do not allow discussion of illegal activity on our message boards. Allowing posters to do this would A) get us in trouble, be irresponsible and C) foster the kind of board community that we do not wish to play host to.
SOE, LA or any other outside force had absolutely no impact on our decision to remove these threads.
We believe we've made our position absolutely clear on this topic. We will no longer be posting in this thread.
Hmmmm let me understand this:
"discussion of illegal activity" - since none of are lawyers, exactly how do you enforce this? Did your lawyer make a determination that something discussed here was potentially or in fact illegal?
A. Printing factual information will get you into trouble? I wasn't aware that games had anything to do with government labs or industrail trade secrets when a disgruntaled population is pointing out the flaws in the companies arguments.
B. It is irresponsible to refute a companies statesments with facts published by that company?
C. So, a community that is clearly disenfanchised and understandably upset with a company has no place here?
I'd understand C. if all people were doing is posting curses, threatening people (in fact there is a poll on this board that asks what violence people would like to engange in that I do think is not appropriate but it hasn't been removed), or other clearly unethical behavior.
The fact is, SOE messed up. And the fact is, the community has a right to make sure that its opinon and thoughts based upon fact are presented. This thread did both until it was edited by folks enforcing rules that require both Engineering and Legal knowledge and I see no evidence that such knowledge and expierence was used as a basis to remove the data presented here.
Well I'll take your word for it that the decision to delete the thread was internal only, but the fact you don't enforce your rules across the board and seem to pick and choose which ones suit you for a given situation is hypocritical.
According to the site rules, one cannot use these forums to sell game items for real money, yet you gladly accept ads from IGE which promote that very thing. I hope you won't play semantics and suggest that ads promoting an illegal activity are ok because they are not technically using the forums.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
1) You wanted an explanation. On a couple occasions those of you griping said you'd be happy if you just got a reply from the staff.
Staff replies, explains why they made the decision they did. That should be the end of it but wait!!!!
2) Now you want to argue about their logic and reasons and, from what I can see, insult them?
Just a few points of fact:
1) None of you own MMORPG.COM 2) None of you work for MMORPG.COM 3) You access MMORPG.COM for *free* 4) You insult, bordering on harassment and personal attack, the staff of MMORPG.COM
Please explain why you think your *opinion* should change their judgement in the matter. They own, operate, run and administer this website and have decided, for the reasons they already stated, to remove the thread. Nearly everyone has stated that they can understand why the thread would be removed. But no, you geniuses feel you better understand the needs and function of MMORPG.COM than the people who run it?
Please, stop. You're only making yourselves look petulant and foolhardy. It's not your decision to make whether to keep the thread or not. The decision was made by moderators on this site and is backed by the site leadership. Frankly if I were running MMORPG.COM I wouldn't even have answered you in the first place. Be happy you got an answer. If you don't like their practices then go to a different website. But stop insulting them. They provide a fantastic website (well they need to get a hardware upgrade bigtime, but other than that) at no charge to you. You see fit to harass them about policy decisions and, in Jorev's case, about advertizing revenue.
If you want to have a say in how the site is run I'd advize you to tender them an offer for the purchase of the site. Otherwise I'd advize letting this go. They've stated their reasons and that the discussion is closed. You can continue to rant and rave and make yourselves look foolish in the process or you can thank them for the explanation and drive on to the next topic. It really makes no sense to post endless insults ad nausium.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Elnator Lemme get this straight guys: 1) You wanted an explanation. On a couple occasions those of you griping said you'd be happy if you just got a reply from the staff. Staff replies, explains why they made the decision they did. That should be the end of it but wait!!!! 2) Now you want to argue about their logic and reasons and, from what I can see, insult them? Just a few points of fact: 1) None of you own MMORPG.COM2) None of you work for MMORPG.COM3) You access MMORPG.COM for *free*4) You insult, bordering on harassment and personal attack, the staff of MMORPG.COM Please explain why you think your *opinion* should change their judgement in the matter. They own, operate, run and administer this website and have decided, for the reasons they already stated, to remove the thread. Nearly everyone has stated that they can understand why the thread would be removed. But no, you geniuses feel you better understand the needs and function of MMORPG.COM than the people who run it? Please, stop. You're only making yourselves look petulant and foolhardy. It's not your decision to make whether to keep the thread or not. The decision was made by moderators on this site and is backed by the site leadership. Frankly if I were running MMORPG.COM I wouldn't even have answered you in the first place. Be happy you got an answer. If you don't like their practices then go to a different website. But stop insulting them. They provide a fantastic website (well they need to get a hardware upgrade bigtime, but other than that) at no charge to you. You see fit to harass them about policy decisions and, in Jorev's case, about advertizing revenue. If you want to have a say in how the site is run I'd advize you to tender them an offer for the purchase of the site. Otherwise I'd advize letting this go. They've stated their reasons and that the discussion is closed. You can continue to rant and rave and make yourselves look foolish in the process or you can thank them for the explanation and drive on to the next topic. It really makes no sense to post endless insults ad nausium.
Please El, recognize you're dealing with the morally outraged. What evidence have you seen in the prior month that would suggest a modicum of rationality?
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by IcoGames Please El, recognize you're dealing with the morally outraged. What evidence have you seen in the prior month that would suggest a modicum of rationality?
I've found that the "Morally Outraged" in any situation (not just message boards) tend to have very little intellect, in general. I guess you're right.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Intellect dictates that a rational explanation be based on logic and supported by fact.
Perhaps when you were a little boy and your parents said "because I said so", you were satisfied with that explanation. Some of us feel that doesn't suffice.
My example of the advertising hypocrisy illustrates the influence that revenue has on MMORPG.com's enforcement of rules. Therefore it is plausible to doubt the reasons stated for deleting the aforementioned thread.
Some other important facts:
MMORPG.com is a profit company.
They earn revenue thru advertising.
Advertisers place ads here because of the traffic that this site generates.
The people who generate this traffic are Us, the collective contributors.
This site is free because if they charged for access, most would not pay and they would lose advertising revenue which would exceed any monies collected from users.
We are entitled to an opinion and a voice because we collectively make their salaries possible.
Looking a gifthorse in the mouth and disregarding the hand that feeds you is foolish.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Jorev Intellect dictates that a rational explanation be based on logic and supported by fact. Perhaps when you were a little boy and your parents said "because I said so", you were satisfied with that explanation. Some of us feel that doesn't suffice. My example of the advertising hypocrisy illustrates the influence that revenue has on MMORPG.com's enforcement of rules. Therefore it is plausible to doubt the reasons stated for deleting the aforementioned thread. Some other important facts: MMORPG.com is a profit company. They earn revenue thru advertising. Advertisers place ads here because of the traffic that this site generates. The people who generate this traffic are Us, the collective contributors. This site is free because if they charged for access, most would not pay and they would lose advertising revenue which would exceed any monies collected from users. We are entitled to an opinion and a voice because we collectively make their salaries possible. Looking a gifthorse in the mouth and disregarding the hand that feeds you is foolish.
Do something about it.
Their site, their rules, if you don't like it, then don't let the virtual door hit you on the way out.
Originally posted by Jorev Intellect dictates that a rational explanation be based on logic and supported by fact. Perhaps when you were a little boy and your parents said "because I said so", you were satisfied with that explanation. Some of us feel that doesn't suffice. My example of the advertising hypocrisy illustrates the influence that revenue has on MMORPG.com's enforcement of rules. Therefore it is plausible to doubt the reasons stated for deleting the aforementioned thread. Some other important facts: MMORPG.com is a profit company. They earn revenue thru advertising. Advertisers place ads here because of the traffic that this site generates. The people who generate this traffic are Us, the collective contributors. This site is free because if they charged for access, most would not pay and they would lose advertising revenue which would exceed any monies collected from users. We are entitled to an opinion and a voice because we collectively make their salaries possible. Looking a gifthorse in the mouth and disregarding the hand that feeds you is foolish.
Do something about it.
Their site, their rules, if you don't like it, then don't let the virtual door hit you on the way out.
I can sympathize with his position, though. If the Mods say "WE deleted it because it was hacked information and we are thus liable (or have a position against posting hacked information" that's all well and good. Their forums, their rules.
But if someone responds "But the information was not hacked", you can sympathize with them wanting a response to that.
I mean, I could say I'd hacked into my bank's central computer and found out it's run by aliens -- are they going to delete a 20+ page thread on it, even ifI was totally serious?
Of course not -- they're not going to believe I was really hacking anything.
As for the login numbers -- the methods the original poster described (under the jsmed name) were not in any way, shape, or form hacking. Capturing and decoding (not decrypting!) packets on your own internal network is not hacking under any legal definition. Heck, decrypting the things on your own network might violate a EULA -- but not the law. (Unless, of course, you signed actual binding agreements -- not something weak like a EULA, but something like NDA's).
Originally posted by Lepidus Originally posted by Bissrok So... is it okay if we just don't say hacked? Like if we had said:I was just thinking... I bet that, on Friday evenings, [delete]See? I didn't hack anything, I'm only making vague guesses. A few days ago I just 'had a vision' that I consider to be proof that SWG is near death.Edited by Lepidus, 02/08/06 - 8:08am
That is most definitely not what he said. Please, respect our decision and not repost the numbers.
Those weren't even the numbers. I don't respect your decision -it sounds like f**kin' bullshit and I think you're all p***ies for deleting it. You even said it wasn't due to an outside force. What everyone was encouraging wasn't illegal, you had no reason to delete the topic or edit my post. And since I said the numbers weren't hacked and the numbers in question weren't used, I'd have to assume your just a d**k.
I can appreciate that the people responsible for this forum may not have understood how the server population numbers were obtained. The post had some wording that could have been taken to imply that it was a result of hacking even though many of us understand that it was not.
What I am getting concerned about is the relative silence about the controversy over SWG with many of the gaming sites and publications. The mainstream media such as the Washington Post, New York Times, USA Today, Christian Science Monitor, and CBS News seem to take more interest in this story than information outlets that specialize in the gaming industry. Does make you wonder if they are being influenced by a potential loss of advertising revenue. I may be missing something but I am starting to wonder.
Originally posted by Arvad Does make you wonder if they are being influenced by a potential loss of advertising revenue. I may be missing something but I am starting to wonder.
That is exactly the point. The owners of the board are influenced by that. There is no way they are not. I made a thread, somewhat in jest, but it did have a point:
Originally posted by Rabia Originally posted by freebirdpat They had plenty of reason to delete the thread. They did not want it on the boards.
Then why give bs reasons for removing. I didn't see 1 clearly stated valid reason for it to be removed. Instead, I saw a lot of excuses.
Not my fault you have your blinders on. Sometimes its good to just take a stepback and see the whole picture. They gave one clearly stated valid reason. The Original Poster said he obtained the information from friends that like to hack. Obviously the MMORPG staff does want the website to be seen that they condone hacking. Leaving the thread as is would have been condoning hacking. Whether it was hacked or not is not the point. The staff at MMORPG's job is not to figure out whether something is true or not. If someone claims that information was hacked then they are obligated to delete it to preserve integrity.
They deleted the post. Probably thought the "hacked" info was questionable. Whether it was hacked or not, it sure was presented that way.. and at face value might cause them concern, since it is THEIR board and they might hold legal responsibility.
Now we all know it WASN'T hacked. But at face value, it sure looked like it. They covered their own asses. FINE.
What you are failing to recognize is that they are allowing us to CONTINUE the line of discussion without the numbers. They are also being QUITE FORGIVING to those tearing them new assholes over it. Simmer down.
It has been proven that the numbers were true... or $OE wouldn't have CHANGED THEIR LOGIN PROTOCOLS TO HIDE THIS. Latest patch does that.
But lay off the mods. They put up a pretty nice board here and don't need to listen to people whining like 5 year olds with skinned knees.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Comments
Clearly, you have taken SOEs side here and focused on a very narrow definiton of the word hack/hacking/etc. As a professional developer, I personally take offense at your deliberatly mis-using the word.
The poster was very clear about his method, which frankly, was more important. He published data that Sony at the time was freely and in the clear publishing to every computer that connected and logged in.
It is very disappointing to see this action taken by this board for a very flimsy reason that makes you all appear no better than SOE.
When a posters legit post is deleted / edit for flimsy reasons, a lack of integrity is being shown. Therefore, no integrity is being attacked the presumption is mistaken that it was there.
At the end of the day, I sleep well knowing I acted with honesty and integrity.
And further more, in terms of the Moral High Ground, Sony Blew it. They deserve all the legitamte trashing supported by *Facts* that the get. In deleting factual information that was honestly obtain, this board has devalued every reader here.
When a posters legit post is deleted / edit for flimsy reasons, a lack of integrity is being shown. Therefore, no integrity is being attacked the presumption is mistaken that it was there.
At the end of the day, I sleep well knowing I acted with honesty and integrity.
And further more, in terms of the Moral High Ground, Sony Blew it. They deserve all the legitamte trashing supported by *Facts* that the get. In deleting factual information that was honestly obtain, this board has devalued every reader here.
The original post made zero mention of methods. Quite the contrary it said: "of course i should'nt have this info but i have friends who like to hack." So the person the original poster was quoting admits they should not have the information and says they have friends who got it by hacking. Then the original poster goes on to use our forums to promote further "hacking" against SOE. Actually writing what the next target should be and telling hackers to take note. So to be clear, you believe we should not remove threads that use our boards to organize illegal activity?
We are not taking any sides on the debate of the ethics of the NGE or any other business. In fact, you can read my full opinions in this editorial published at the time (http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setview/features/loadFeature/325/gameID/6). What we are saying is that the thread violated the terms of our website. Then went on to encourage further illegal activity.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
An "offical" mmorpg opinon was stated and read. If I had stated I knew how to read the IP payload of a Datagram and post that information, it would have been incorrectly labeled as hacking. Just because the orignial poster was technically and legally less savy doesn't mean he was actually wrong in having or posting the data inspite of the his negative opinon of himself.
In the end, by deleting legit data, a side has been taken and lets face it, the Media is more concerned about advertiser income rather than over readership.
Overall, the opinon was wrong for the reasons given. And, as an Engineer, it is hard for me to sit by and see media outlets manipulate facts.
Dana, just out of curiosity, would the thread have been deleted if this line was not in the the OP?
"of course i should'nt have this info but i have friends who like to hack."
PIRATE LORDS
I think it's a reasonable presumption, based on the activity the thread had received and how long it was allowed to exist prior to being deleted, that the decision to remove it was in direct response to an outside request, from someone at SOE or LA or persons representing their interests. That would indicate that MMORPG.com did not believe it to be a violation of rules originally. Perhaps after review and discussion you decided otherwise.
In order to preserve the integrity of MMORPG.com and promote the objective and honest coverage you state you are proud of and therefore desire, will you go on record and confirm or deny that a request was made to remove the offending thread by SOE or LA or parties representing their interests?
Jon said SOE did not threaten legal action, but threats to pull advertisement or simply a suggestion of unhappiness with the thread by interested parties, would be coercive enough.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
SOE, LA or any other outside force had absolutely no impact on our decision to remove these threads.
We believe we've made our position absolutely clear on this topic. We will no longer be posting in this thread.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
SOE, LA or any other outside force had absolutely no impact on our decision to remove these threads.
We believe we've made our position absolutely clear on this topic. We will no longer be posting in this thread.
Hmmmm let me understand this:
"discussion of illegal activity" - since none of are lawyers, exactly how do you enforce this? Did your lawyer make a determination that something discussed here was potentially or in fact illegal?
A. Printing factual information will get you into trouble? I wasn't aware that games had anything to do with government labs or industrail trade secrets when a disgruntaled population is pointing out the flaws in the companies arguments.
B. It is irresponsible to refute a companies statesments with facts published by that company?
C. So, a community that is clearly disenfanchised and understandably upset with a company has no place here?
I'd understand C. if all people were doing is posting curses, threatening people (in fact there is a poll on this board that
asks what violence people would like to engange in that I do think is not appropriate but it hasn't been removed), or
other clearly unethical behavior.
The fact is, SOE messed up. And the fact is, the community has a right to make sure that its opinon and thoughts based upon fact are presented. This thread did both until it was edited by folks enforcing rules that require both Engineering and Legal knowledge and I see no evidence that such knowledge and expierence was used as a basis to remove the data presented here.
Well I'll take your word for it that the decision to delete the thread was internal only, but the fact you don't enforce your rules across the board and seem to pick and choose which ones suit you for a given situation is hypocritical.
According to the site rules, one cannot use these forums to sell game items for real money, yet you gladly accept ads from IGE which promote that very thing. I hope you won't play semantics and suggest that ads promoting an illegal activity are ok because they are not technically using the forums.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
Lemme get this straight guys:
1) You wanted an explanation. On a couple occasions those of you griping said you'd be happy if you just got a reply from the staff.
Staff replies, explains why they made the decision they did. That should be the end of it but wait!!!!
2) Now you want to argue about their logic and reasons and, from what I can see, insult them?
Just a few points of fact:
1) None of you own MMORPG.COM
2) None of you work for MMORPG.COM
3) You access MMORPG.COM for *free*
4) You insult, bordering on harassment and personal attack, the staff of MMORPG.COM
Please explain why you think your *opinion* should change their judgement in the matter. They own, operate, run and administer this website and have decided, for the reasons they already stated, to remove the thread. Nearly everyone has stated that they can understand why the thread would be removed. But no, you geniuses feel you better understand the needs and function of MMORPG.COM than the people who run it?
Please, stop. You're only making yourselves look petulant and foolhardy. It's not your decision to make whether to keep the thread or not. The decision was made by moderators on this site and is backed by the site leadership. Frankly if I were running MMORPG.COM I wouldn't even have answered you in the first place. Be happy you got an answer. If you don't like their practices then go to a different website. But stop insulting them. They provide a fantastic website (well they need to get a hardware upgrade bigtime, but other than that) at no charge to you. You see fit to harass them about policy decisions and, in Jorev's case, about advertizing revenue.
If you want to have a say in how the site is run I'd advize you to tender them an offer for the purchase of the site. Otherwise I'd advize letting this go. They've stated their reasons and that the discussion is closed. You can continue to rant and rave and make yourselves look foolish in the process or you can thank them for the explanation and drive on to the next topic. It really makes no sense to post endless insults ad nausium.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Please El, recognize you're dealing with the morally outraged. What evidence have you seen in the prior month that would suggest a modicum of rationality?
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Intellect dictates that a rational explanation be based on logic and supported by fact.
Perhaps when you were a little boy and your parents said "because I said so", you were satisfied with that explanation. Some of us feel that doesn't suffice.
My example of the advertising hypocrisy illustrates the influence that revenue has on MMORPG.com's enforcement of rules. Therefore it is plausible to doubt the reasons stated for deleting the aforementioned thread.
Some other important facts:
MMORPG.com is a profit company.
They earn revenue thru advertising.
Advertisers place ads here because of the traffic that this site generates.
The people who generate this traffic are Us, the collective contributors.
This site is free because if they charged for access, most would not pay and they would lose advertising revenue which would exceed any monies collected from users.
We are entitled to an opinion and a voice because we collectively make their salaries possible.
Looking a gifthorse in the mouth and disregarding the hand that feeds you is foolish.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
Jorev, please loosen the straps on your safety helmet. ^_^
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Do something about it.
Their site, their rules, if you don't like it, then don't let the virtual door hit you on the way out.
NGE Refugee.
Do something about it.
Their site, their rules, if you don't like it, then don't let the virtual door hit you on the way out.
I can sympathize with his position, though. If the Mods say "WE deleted it because it was hacked information and we are thus liable (or have a position against posting hacked information" that's all well and good. Their forums, their rules.
But if someone responds "But the information was not hacked", you can sympathize with them wanting a response to that.
I mean, I could say I'd hacked into my bank's central computer and found out it's run by aliens -- are they going to delete a 20+ page thread on it, even if I was totally serious?
Of course not -- they're not going to believe I was really hacking anything.
As for the login numbers -- the methods the original poster described (under the jsmed name) were not in any way, shape, or form hacking. Capturing and decoding (not decrypting!) packets on your own internal network is not hacking under any legal definition. Heck, decrypting the things on your own network might violate a EULA -- but not the law. (Unless, of course, you signed actual binding agreements -- not something weak like a EULA, but something like NDA's).
hey all,
This is my absolute first post on mmorpg.com and I would just like to get started off the right way by saying.
SOE SUCKS !
Ok. now that I said that, I can strat making serious posts
That is most definitely not what he said. Please, respect our decision and not repost the numbers.
Those weren't even the numbers. I don't respect your decision -it sounds like f**kin' bullshit and I think you're all p***ies for deleting it. You even said it wasn't due to an outside force. What everyone was encouraging wasn't illegal, you had no reason to delete the topic or edit my post. And since I said the numbers weren't hacked and the numbers in question weren't used, I'd have to assume your just a d**k.
A** Still Raw From Your Last SWG Subscription? Come join us at RLMMO.com
They had plenty of reason to delete the thread. They did not want it on the boards.
I can appreciate that the people responsible for this forum may not have understood how the server population numbers were obtained. The post had some wording that could have been taken to imply that it was a result of hacking even though many of us understand that it was not.
What I am getting concerned about is the relative silence about the controversy over SWG with many of the gaming sites and publications. The mainstream media such as the Washington Post, New York Times, USA Today, Christian Science Monitor, and CBS News seem to take more interest in this story than information outlets that specialize in the gaming industry. Does make you wonder if they are being influenced by a potential loss of advertising revenue. I may be missing something but I am starting to wonder.
Then why give bs reasons for removing. I didn't see 1 clearly stated valid reason for it to be removed.
Instead, I saw a lot of excuses.
That is exactly the point. The owners of the board are influenced by that. There is no way they are not.
I made a thread, somewhat in jest, but it did have a point:
How would SWG be rated by Consumer Reports?
Thanks for this nice comment Arvad.
Then why give bs reasons for removing. I didn't see 1 clearly stated valid reason for it to be removed.
Instead, I saw a lot of excuses.
Not my fault you have your blinders on. Sometimes its good to just take a stepback and see the whole picture. They gave one clearly stated valid reason. The Original Poster said he obtained the information from friends that like to hack. Obviously the MMORPG staff does want the website to be seen that they condone hacking. Leaving the thread as is would have been condoning hacking. Whether it was hacked or not is not the point. The staff at MMORPG's job is not to figure out whether something is true or not. If someone claims that information was hacked then they are obligated to delete it to preserve integrity.
Look guys... unwad your panties.
They deleted the post. Probably thought the "hacked" info was questionable. Whether it was hacked or not, it sure was presented that way.. and at face value might cause them concern, since it is THEIR board and they might hold legal responsibility.
Now we all know it WASN'T hacked. But at face value, it sure looked like it. They covered their own asses. FINE.
What you are failing to recognize is that they are allowing us to CONTINUE the line of discussion without the numbers. They are also being QUITE FORGIVING to those tearing them new assholes over it. Simmer down.
It has been proven that the numbers were true... or $OE wouldn't have CHANGED THEIR LOGIN PROTOCOLS TO HIDE THIS. Latest patch does that.
But lay off the mods. They put up a pretty nice board here and don't need to listen to people whining like 5 year olds with skinned knees.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
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