I have an odd request. The end of this topic has shown some good two sided debate. Any two of you interested in doing this as an actual feature on the site (a Saturday debate). Obviously, I need one person (good writer) from each side of the issue. Email me if you are interested: lepidus AT mmorpg DOT com.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Personally, I don't agree with gold farmers or anything equivalent.
When playing eve-online, we have the infamous macro miners.
These guy will simply sit in a secure system, and mine well.. everything.
These secure systems are for new players mainly... What happens when someone is constantly taking EVERYTHING from the belts? the new guys don't have anything to mine... and so on...
Although I do understand the frustration from some players... working/mining/hunting whatever for hours to get "that specific item", while it only cost a fiver on ebay... well, it might only cost a fiver on ebay, but how many players were affected for this item to be built? how many players were given a hard time to start because they didn't get the ressources that were originally put them for them to start?
Although eve-online dev's are trying to help, players started taking actions themselves (which usually cost us security points and ships :-P ) ... My opinion on macro miners/gold farmers: Kill On Sight... and if that cost them REAL life money on top of that, Twice the pleasure for me...
------------------------------------------------------------ No trees were hurt while sending this message.However a Large amount of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. ------------------------------------------------------------ Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Thank you for your comments. I am aware of the issues in this debate, but when it comes down to it at its most simple form: the companies would be sued into oblivion if what they did was illegal. Given that no one has even tried, it suggests the law is on their side. If that changes, I am sure our policies will too, but until that bridge is crossed, any judgement we make is a moral one.
And what's wrong with taking a stand on moral/ethical lines? Don't they teach ethics in college anymore? Companies make decisions based on ethical grounds every day. As a business owner for several years, and now as an officer in a public company, I continue to make decisions that prevent our company from doing things that are legal, but in my opinion of questionable ethics.
Now whether accepting this type of advertising is ethical, that's a different topic altogether.
I'm a GM, in most MMOs the influence on the economy of companies like IGE is minor, exceptions being FFXI and L2, I don't think they are bad for the industry, but what is bad is a lot of the subcontractors.
The people who actually play the game to get the items and gold for resale, these people by and large are seriously nasty and tend to break dozens of rules from kill stealing, abuse to outright hacking. If they could get the items and gold legitimately I don't think they'd have quite as bad an image as they do.
I take great delight in everyone I ban for selling in game items and currency, cause I know they break more rules than the rest of the community put together.
Yah know, it's good to have a good editorial staff in place, but when somone starts silencing a person by removing there post because of one thing or another, it gose completely against what the internet, and this country, was founded on. I simply posted that a person was selling an acount on Ebay, and that we should send that person hate mail, hens, being against the idea of selling accounts and items for real money, and I recived a BS warning from the moderator of the site. The sad part is I am on there side and I get a warning telling me that regardles of wether I was trying to sell and account or not is not important. Well that's wrong, period. I wouldn't be surprised if no one ever see's this message and my account get's closed just for writing it, but it's something I have to do anyway. I would hope that profesionalism will show through and an apology for accusing me of something I didn't do will come out of this, but when the moderator can just delete what they don't like they never have to admit that there wrong. So let's see what happens.
System: Xbox360 Game: Final Fantasy XI Server: Siren Primary: Omegaknight Race: Galka Level: 20WAR/10MON Secondary: Omegamule Race: TaruTaru Level: 4BLM Region: Bastok Linkshell: starsofdestiny Web Page: www.myspace.com/gurushouse
Originally posted by eirek Haha, you told people to send the seller "Hate Mail" and you wonder why you got a warning?
No, I didn't get the warning for telling people to send hate mail I got the warning because the moderator sais that I was trying to sell my account and using that as a clever excuse. That's what I think is BS. Why should they care if a virtual seller gets some hate mail. Arn't they against virtual sellers as well. Plus, I never said I wonder why I got the warning. I know why I just belive it's a bunch of crap, and I deserve an appolagy. If I don't get it, witch I know I won't, life will go on, but it would be nice if they would step up and admit there misstake. And, if I get booted for good, big deal, I don't want to be part of an over censored forum site that just delete post whenever they feel like it, even if I didn't violate there rules of conduct. Beleve me, there are other forum sites out there that are more open to suggestion, and don't tell people what they can and can't say.
System: Xbox360 Game: Final Fantasy XI Server: Siren Primary: Omegaknight Race: Galka Level: 20WAR/10MON Secondary: Omegamule Race: TaruTaru Level: 4BLM Region: Bastok Linkshell: starsofdestiny Web Page: www.myspace.com/gurushouse
Originally posted by eirek Haha, you told people to send the seller "Hate Mail" and you wonder why you got a warning?
No, I didn't get the warning for telling people to send hate mail I got the warning because the moderator sais that I was trying to sell my account and using that as a clever excuse. That's what I think is BS. Why should they care if a virtual seller gets some hate mail. Arn't they against virtual sellers as well. Plus, I never said I wonder why I got the warning. I know why I just belive it's a bunch of crap, and I deserve an appolagy. If I don't get it, witch I know I won't, life will go on, but it would be nice if they would step up and admit there misstake. And, if I get booted for good, big deal, I don't want to be part of an over censored forum site that just delete post whenever they feel like it, even if I didn't violate there rules of conduct. Beleve me, there are other forum sites out there that are more open to suggestion, and don't tell people what they can and can't say.
We're sliding away from the topic, but I cannot resist.
They might have given you an inappropriate reason - they might; but even if you're telling the truth, the site policy may easily have been broken.
Is hate mail, spamming with hate mail (and especially when coordinated) legal? If it is not, the mere suggestion would be in breach of policy (by default "Major infraction", but it might not be that harsh). It could also qualify for hateful content. They have, apparently, decided not to treat it as one of these infractions.
But better than trying to pin down the exact paragraph concerning your post, apply common sense and try to match it with the purpose of this site. In this case, take one thing that is not the purpose: To harm other people, members or not, in any way. From all I've seen, that is not how mmorpg.com wishes to operate.
On the other hand, part of their purpose: Exchange of information and opinion (without encouragement of harmful or illegal activities), discussion and possibly entertainment. Try gearing your posts towards that instead, and you'll probably not even need to read the policy to avoid breaking it. Suggesting solutions (legal and benevolent), bringing up problems and similar activities typically qualify for positive participation.
The future: Adellion Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants) Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens) Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
Originally posted by Kormac Originally posted by OmegaknightOriginally posted by eirekHaha, you told people to send the seller "Hate Mail" and you wonder why you got a warning? No, I didn't get the warning for telling people to send hate mail I got the warning because the moderator sais that I was trying to sell my account and using that as a clever excuse. That's what I think is BS. Why should they care if a virtual seller gets some hate mail. Arn't they against virtual sellers as well. Plus, I never said I wonder why I got the warning. I know why I just belive it's a bunch of crap, and I deserve an appolagy. If I don't get it, witch I know I won't, life will go on, but it would be nice if they would step up and admit there misstake. And, if I get booted for good, big deal, I don't want to be part of an over censored forum site that just delete post whenever they feel like it, even if I didn't violate there rules of conduct. Beleve me, there are other forum sites out there that are more open to suggestion, and don't tell people what they can and can't say.We're sliding away from the topic, but I cannot resist. They might have given you an inappropriate reason - they might; but even if you're telling the truth, the site policy may easily have been broken. Is hate mail, spamming with hate mail (and especially when coordinated) legal? If it is not, the mere suggestion would be in breach of policy (by default "Major infraction", but it might not be that harsh). It could also qualify for hateful content. They have, apparently, decided not to treat it as one of these infractions. But better than trying to pin down the exact paragraph concerning your post, apply common sense and try to match it with the purpose of this site. In this case, take one thing that is not the purpose: To harm other people, members or not, in any way. From all I've seen, that is not how mmorpg.com wishes to operate. On the other hand, part of their purpose: Exchange of information and opinion (without encouragement of harmful or illegal activities), discussion and possibly entertainment. Try gearing your posts towards that instead, and you'll probably not even need to read the policy to avoid breaking it. Suggesting solutions (legal and benevolent), bringing up problems and similar activities typically qualify for positive participation.
I'll admit, you make a lot of sence in there, and I will, from now on, not post anything about flaming anyone or Ebay. But, at the same time, your missing the point. As I said, in the above post, I didn't recive the warning for trying to organize hatemail. I recived it because the moderator sais that I was trying to sell my account, and was using the hatemail as a clever disguise to get people to look at the account. That is completely wrong. If they hadn't deleted the original message, you'd be able to see what I meen. It realy dosn't mater anyway. I just thought it would be nice to see a moderator addmit there mistake, for once. Hiding behind a moderator status is a bit of a cowards way out, as I see it. Basicaly, the point isn't wether or not I violated the user agreement when I posted the the topic, it's that the warning was issued for a bogus reason.
System: Xbox360 Game: Final Fantasy XI Server: Siren Primary: Omegaknight Race: Galka Level: 20WAR/10MON Secondary: Omegamule Race: TaruTaru Level: 4BLM Region: Bastok Linkshell: starsofdestiny Web Page: www.myspace.com/gurushouse
You recieved a warning because whether it was inadvertently or not, you were advertising the virtual goods.
We are moderators, not psychics: If you advertise it under the guise of rallying hate towards the subject - It would not/does not matter; you advertised the item, none-the-less - And we can not validate whether it was for a hidden agenda, albeit that wouldn't matter, because you did advertise the virtual trade taking place. It would be no different then posting a pornographic image, followed by your textual explanation of disdain for said image, and then being shocked when you get warned for posting pornographic imagery.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
it s a moral decision wether to accept adds from goldseller sites or not.
you can argue about legality until your eyes bleed, legality is not the point.
The point is how the people who visit your site will perceive it, and the decision wether to take money from goldfarmers or not is indeed kind of a big deal to a large segment of the MMO playerbase.
So, yes, it s legal, no you won t get sued, but you can t play with mud and expect to not get dirty. and that s how a good deal of people will perceive this site s decision - no matter what you or me think about the issue personally and no matter wether it s legal or not. mud sticks
Originally posted by Lepidus dunadurium , Thank you for your comments. I am aware of the issues in this debate, but when it comes down to it at its most simple form: the companies would be sued into oblivion if what they did was illegal. Given that no one has even tried, it suggests the law is on their side. If that changes, I am sure our policies will too, but until that bridge is crossed, any judgement we make is a moral one.
Actually, in the only cases I am aware of where it HAS been taken to court (for DAOC and WOW), US courts found in favor of the MMOG companies.
Technically, selling MMOG items/gold is fraud, sinceyou are selling items you do not own. However, most sellers are aware of this, and don't really "sell" the items, but instead charge you a fee for the transfer of that item - making it clear on their site usually that they are not claiming to own the item, nor are they claiming to transfer ownership to you.
This gets them out of fraud charges, and changes it to simple EULA violation. The biggest weapon devs can usually use against this is banning the accounts, unfortunately, although again - exceptions exist, like where Mythic effectively shut down a company trying to sell DAOC items.
I suspect we'll see more legal challenges forthcoming. Some of the companies engaging in this activity are now large enough to make lawsuits at least a break-even proposition, and it is absolutely critical to MMOG companies that they make at least tacit defenses of their EULAs, for legal purposes. Many of the companies being based overseas helps muddy the issue, however, as these are much harder for US companies to affect through the legal system.
It's clear to anyone paying attention, that MMORPG.com practices hypocrisy.
They have made a moral choice to enforce Beta NDAs by deleting posts and banning users who discuss a game as a beta tester during the NDA enforcement period. I know of no case where a game company has sued a Beta tester into oblivion for violating the NDA.
Yet they don't apply the same standard to companies that sell virtual property which violates the EULA.
SHOW ME THE MONEY.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
It's clear to anyone paying attention, that MMORPG.com practices hypocrisy.
They have made a moral choice to enforce Beta NDAs by deleting posts and banning users who discuss a game as a beta tester during the NDA enforcement period. I know of no case where a game company has sued a Beta tester into oblivion for violating the NDA.
Yet they don't apply the same standard to companies that sell virtual property which violates the EULA.
SHOW ME THE MONEY.
This is a good point. If MMORPG, as said by Admin:
"HOWEVER, if a game company contacts us and shows us NDA violations on our site we will BAN YOUR ACCOUNT if they can provide enough evidence to prove to us that you did this. Your account at MMORPG.com can be revoked at our sole discretion - and we despise those who violate NDA agreements and surely don't want them around here."
Whats the difference between a NDA and an EULA? They are both private agreements that do not involve MMORPG.com, but for some reason MMORPG.com is only concerning itself with enforcing the NDAs while profiting off of companies that violate the EULAs.
Just thought i'd let MMORPG know. I just saw a banner for the selling of in game currency. I am disgusted with MMORPG.com . They claim that they are helping to the MMORPG community when in reality they are no better than IGE.
There is a line between profit and morality and MMORPG has crossed that line.
After this post, i will have nothing to do with this website
Originally posted by minuteman 3 simple points I would like to make: 1. The greater majority of MMO players purchase gold and other in game items. And sadly the vocal minority has tried to create a controversy and claim they speak for us...they dont. 2. EULA's and TOU are not legal contracts and are solely in place to allow the gaming companies to take away our accounts as they see fit. So enough of these claims that they in any way represent the law. 3. I am nauseated by the recent high horsery going on in this community especially the recent rantings in pc gamer about how they are protecting the gamers from the evil gold sellers and then in the same magazine feature an ad from the SOE operated gold and item selling site. I guess as long as its the game companies making the money then its all ok... How naive and stupid do you think we are? Enough of the insults and pulpit pounding allready. There are enough rules in this world without stuffing even more of them down our throats in the gaming worlds we enter to escape from this crap. Just eff off and leave us be...
Go play on the EQ2 servers or the games that permit crap like that. And stay the hell away from the games that don't. I sincerly believe you and your ilk are in the minority. But you ruin the game(s) for the majority.
Just because you able to do something doesn't mean you should do it. /Salute to the players who play the game the right way.
!. Gold buyers/sellers ruin the game economy by flooding the market with large amounts of gold, with gold buyers willing to pay outrageous amounts for an item just because they want it now, driving up the price of items in a short amount of time.
2. You end up with a bunch of n00bs who are suddenly equipped with the best armor/items around and are therefore able to powerlevel their way to high level, only to be of no use to anyone because they don't know how to really play the game and are then upset that noone wants to team with them.
3. You end up with people who are really there to play the game as it is meant to be played leaving because as was pointed out in an earlier post the farmers camp the spots needed for legitimate players to get the things they need to progress.
Originally posted by Porfat Originally posted by minuteman 3 simple points I would like to make: 1. The greater majority of MMO players purchase gold and other in game items. And sadly the vocal minority has tried to create a controversy and claim they speak for us...they dont. 2. EULA's and TOU are not legal contracts and are solely in place to allow the gaming companies to take away our accounts as they see fit. So enough of these claims that they in any way represent the law. 3. I am nauseated by the recent high horsery going on in this community especially the recent rantings in pc gamer about how they are protecting the gamers from the evil gold sellers and then in the same magazine feature an ad from the SOE operated gold and item selling site. I guess as long as its the game companies making the money then its all ok... How naive and stupid do you think we are? Enough of the insults and pulpit pounding allready. There are enough rules in this world without stuffing even more of them down our throats in the gaming worlds we enter to escape from this crap. Just eff off and leave us be...
Go play on the EQ2 servers or the games that permit crap like that. And stay the hell away from the games that don't. I sincerly believe you and your ilk are in the minority. But you ruin the game(s) for the majority.
Just because you able to do something doesn't mean you should do it. /Salute to the players who play the game the right way.
Nope the gaming community is pretty split even on it. 1/3rd For, 1/3rd Against, and 1/3rd that just don't care.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Originally posted by SP_icewater Just thought i'd let MMORPG know. I just saw a banner for the selling of in game currency. I am disgusted with MMORPG.com . They claim that they are helping to the MMORPG community when in reality they are no better than IGE. There is a line between profit and morality and MMORPG has crossed that line. After this post, i will have nothing to do with this website
If someone could recommend another good information site, I'd be with you.
Unfortunately I don't know of another one and that seems to be what MMORPG.com is relying on, the fact that they have no real competition.
You bettter believe they would be singing another tune if a large amount of their site traffic shifted to a competitor. So much for journalistic integrity, hehe.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by cumbom Originally posted by Jorev
It's clear to anyone paying attention, that MMORPG.com practices hypocrisy. They have made a moral choice to enforce Beta NDAs by deleting posts and banning users who discuss a game as a beta tester during the NDA enforcement period. I know of no case where a game company has sued a Beta tester into oblivion for violating the NDA. Yet they don't apply the same standard to companies that sell virtual property which violates the EULA. SHOW ME THE MONEY.
This is a good point. If MMORPG, as said by Admin:
"HOWEVER, if a game company contacts us and shows us NDA violations on our site we will BAN YOUR ACCOUNT if they can provide enough evidence to prove to us that you did this. Your account at MMORPG.com can be revoked at our sole discretion - and we despise those who violate NDA agreements and surely don't want them around here."
Whats the difference between a NDA and an EULA? They are both private agreements that do not involve MMORPG.com, but for some reason MMORPG.com is only concerning itself with enforcing the NDAs while profiting off of companies that violate the EULAs.
I'd like to hear an explanation to that one.
I would just like to add that we never allow posts in our forums for NDA violations *or* virtual trading. So I don't see the hypocrisy here. If another website that allowed NDA violators to post in their forums wanted to purchase ad space here we would allow that...that would be their mess to manage and not ours. Please don't confuse our advertising with what we do and don't allow in our forums. We do have morals in who we select for advertisers but it is limited to things that generally harm or strongly offend others or contain illegal content (ie websites encouraging hate, violence, pornography, drugs, etc). I don't think that sites like IGE are going to cause harm to anyone and they are not widespread offensive like porn nor is their actions illegal in any countries laws.
For the record, I personally am against gold farming (but not so much honest player to player trades of virtual items for real world money). However, just because I may be against something does not mean I can decide to not allow it to be advertised on this site. What would be next, I decide not to advertise Game X because I personally don't like it?
I personally despise an NDA violator more than a gold trader because they are getting a free, privledged "test drive" of a product and more or less backstab the company that entrusted them. Whereas a player buying gold is paying a healthy monthly fee to play a game and there are debatable points that he/she might be entitled to sell the things they have earned with their time and money. Again, I don't really like it either and I don't like lots of things in this world, but that does not mean that they cannot advertise on this site. I belong to a US political party too, and regardless of that I would advertise for any party if they approached us.
I have said this before and I will say it now. If you are against these ads then don't click on them. If the performance falls on the ads the advertiser will cease to purchase them. The fact is that this issue is not a cut and dry case. It is a very divided issue and there are good arguments on all sides. We just choose not to take a given stance on it...and not allowing these ads would be exactly that.
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
The dead know only one thing: it is better to be alive.
Originally posted by Admin Originally posted by cumbom Originally posted by Jorev It's clear to anyone paying attention, that MMORPG.com practices hypocrisy. They have made a moral choice to enforce Beta NDAs by deleting posts and banning users who discuss a game as a beta tester during the NDA enforcement period. I know of no case where a game company has sued a Beta tester into oblivion for violating the NDA. Yet they don't apply the same standard to companies that sell virtual property which violates the EULA. SHOW ME THE MONEY.
This is a good point. If MMORPG, as said by Admin:
"HOWEVER, if a game company contacts us and shows us NDA violations on our site we will BAN YOUR ACCOUNT if they can provide enough evidence to prove to us that you did this. Your account at MMORPG.com can be revoked at our sole discretion - and we despise those who violate NDA agreements and surely don't want them around here."
Whats the difference between a NDA and an EULA? They are both private agreements that do not involve MMORPG.com, but for some reason MMORPG.com is only concerning itself with enforcing the NDAs while profiting off of companies that violate the EULAs.
I'd like to hear an explanation to that one.
I would just like to add that we never allow posts in our forums for NDA violations *or* virtual trading. So I don't see the hypocrisy here. If another website that allowed NDA violators to post in their forums wanted to purchase ad space here we would allow that...that would be their mess to manage and not ours. Please don't confuse our advertising with what we do and don't allow in our forums. We do have morals in who we select for advertisers but it is limited to things that generally harm or strongly offend others or contain illegal content (ie websites encouraging hate, violence, pornography, drugs, etc). I don't think that sites like IGE are going to cause harm to anyone and they are not widespread offensive like porn nor is their actions illegal in any countries laws.
For the record, I personally am against gold farming (but not so much honest player to player trades of virtual items for real world money). However, just because I may be against something does not mean I can decide to not allow it to be advertised on this site. What would be next, I decide not to advertise Game X because I personally don't like it?
I personally despise an NDA violator more than a gold trader because they are getting a free, privledged "test drive" of a product and more or less backstab the company that entrusted them. Whereas a player buying gold is paying a healthy monthly fee to play a game and there are debatable points that he/she might be entitled to sell the things they have earned with their time and money. Again, I don't really like it either and I don't like lots of things in this world, but that does not mean that they cannot advertise on this site. I belong to a US political party too, and regardless of that I would advertise for any party if they approached us.
I have said this before and I will say it now. If you are against these ads then don't click on them. If the performance falls on the ads the advertiser will cease to purchase them. The fact is that this issue is not a cut and dry case. It is a very divided issue and there are good arguments on all sides. We just choose not to take a given stance on it...and not allowing these ads would be exactly that.
Correct me if I'm wrond, but didn't I read sometihng that said the only reason MMORPG.com doesn't allow Virtual Trading is because they don't want any legal ramifications to come back and bite them?
Also what is the reason for not allowing a NDA violator to post on this site? As long as MMORPG.com isn't soliciting the information, MMORPG.com is clear of any responsibility.
You choose not to take a given stance on Gold Selling, but you have chosen to take a stance on NDA violations, and arguably there are good arguments on all sides of that issue as well.
Not to actually pull you or anyone else into an actual debate on the properness of a NDA or that of violating it, but purely to illustrate my point that there are good arguments all around.
Arguments could be made that:
If a company is grossly misrepresenting a game to our fellow community here at MMORPG.com a poster might feel compelled to break the NDA and warn the community of what appears to be the truth.
NDAs may not all be proper legal agreements.
You state that someone breaking an NDA is essentially backstabbing the company that allows them to play their game for free. An argument could be made that the company benefits from the testing/reporting of bugs. and of course the mere presence of a player allows the company to test their server stability as well as try to woo a potential customer.
The same could be said that breaking the EULA or TOS is backstabbing a company. You are effectively agreeing to something and then going behind the company's back you are betraying them.
You make the point that just because you belong to a certain political party does not mean that you are going to deny them the right to advertise on your site.
You may dislike that party, but you don't stop people posting about that party, their opinions on that party or their policies, so your actions are not hypocritical.
However would you not say that if you were to prohibit posting about that party or criticism of yours, but allow advertising from them, that you are instituting a double standard? That double standard being that what you can say to this community depends on your ability to pay to say it.
I still see it as neither of these actions are allowed on our forums (NDA breaches or the trading of virtual items for real world money). When they are published in our pages in the form of posts we begin to facilitate a means to do these things - which we have no interest in doing so. This now makes us a sort of IGE site, or in the case of NDA's it makes us some kind of "underground" site that allows this kind of actions. There is a major difference between advertising for a site and publishing content. I have yet to see an example of a publisher being held accountable for the actions of an advertising client who breached a civil contract, and I doubt I will.
The comments on liability or only partly true. Inded we are not liable if someone posts something in our boards that violates a private contract, however - if we are NOTIFIED and made aware of it and fail to take action to remove it we can become a facilitator to the action - and hence we can be summoned into court if the player is brough to suit, and even share in the blame. We don't want to waste our time deleting posts when we are notified and we surely don't want to be called into various courts to take part in legal battles. So to make life easy, just keep this out of our forums...I'm sure there are some "underground" sites out there that will allow this kind of thing...again, if these sites wanted to advertise here we would probably allow it (assuming they did not have other more serious issues like porn or illegal things).
Again I apologize for those that see these ads and feel that we endorse virtual trading. But we do not, nor do we condone it. Like many others we are hoping that someday a major court ruling will set a precident for whether or not players have a right to sell the virtual items they obtain online.
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
The dead know only one thing: it is better to be alive.
Comments
Hey everyone,
I have an odd request. The end of this topic has shown some good two sided debate. Any two of you interested in doing this as an actual feature on the site (a Saturday debate). Obviously, I need one person (good writer) from each side of the issue. Email me if you are interested: lepidus AT mmorpg DOT com.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Personally, I don't agree with gold farmers or anything equivalent.
When playing eve-online, we have the infamous macro miners.
These guy will simply sit in a secure system, and mine well.. everything.
These secure systems are for new players mainly... What happens when someone is constantly taking EVERYTHING from the belts? the new guys don't have anything to mine... and so on...
Although I do understand the frustration from some players... working/mining/hunting whatever for hours to get "that specific item", while it only cost a fiver on ebay... well, it might only cost a fiver on ebay, but how many players were affected for this item to be built? how many players were given a hard time to start because they didn't get the ressources that were originally put them for them to start?
Although eve-online dev's are trying to help, players started taking actions themselves (which usually cost us security points and ships :-P ) ... My opinion on macro miners/gold farmers: Kill On Sight... and if that cost them REAL life money on top of that, Twice the pleasure for me...
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Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Now whether accepting this type of advertising is ethical, that's a different topic altogether.
I'm a GM, in most MMOs the influence on the economy of companies like IGE is minor, exceptions being FFXI and L2, I don't think they are bad for the industry, but what is bad is a lot of the subcontractors.
The people who actually play the game to get the items and gold for resale, these people by and large are seriously nasty and tend to break dozens of rules from kill stealing, abuse to outright hacking. If they could get the items and gold legitimately I don't think they'd have quite as bad an image as they do.
I take great delight in everyone I ban for selling in game items and currency, cause I know they break more rules than the rest of the community put together.
How are you today?
Yah know, it's good to have a good editorial staff in place, but when somone starts silencing a person by removing there post because of one thing or another, it gose completely against what the internet, and this country, was founded on. I simply posted that a person was selling an acount on Ebay, and that we should send that person hate mail, hens, being against the idea of selling accounts and items for real money, and I recived a BS warning from the moderator of the site. The sad part is I am on there side and I get a warning telling me that regardles of wether I was trying to sell and account or not is not important. Well that's wrong, period. I wouldn't be surprised if no one ever see's this message and my account get's closed just for writing it, but it's something I have to do anyway. I would hope that profesionalism will show through and an apology for accusing me of something I didn't do will come out of this, but when the moderator can just delete what they don't like they never have to admit that there wrong. So let's see what happens.
System: Xbox360
Game: Final Fantasy XI
Server: Siren
Primary: Omegaknight
Race: Galka
Level: 20WAR/10MON
Secondary: Omegamule
Race: TaruTaru
Level: 4BLM
Region: Bastok
Linkshell: starsofdestiny
Web Page: www.myspace.com/gurushouse
No, I didn't get the warning for telling people to send hate mail I got the warning because the moderator sais that I was trying to sell my account and using that as a clever excuse. That's what I think is BS. Why should they care if a virtual seller gets some hate mail. Arn't they against virtual sellers as well. Plus, I never said I wonder why I got the warning. I know why I just belive it's a bunch of crap, and I deserve an appolagy. If I don't get it, witch I know I won't, life will go on, but it would be nice if they would step up and admit there misstake. And, if I get booted for good, big deal, I don't want to be part of an over censored forum site that just delete post whenever they feel like it, even if I didn't violate there rules of conduct. Beleve me, there are other forum sites out there that are more open to suggestion, and don't tell people what they can and can't say.
System: Xbox360
Game: Final Fantasy XI
Server: Siren
Primary: Omegaknight
Race: Galka
Level: 20WAR/10MON
Secondary: Omegamule
Race: TaruTaru
Level: 4BLM
Region: Bastok
Linkshell: starsofdestiny
Web Page: www.myspace.com/gurushouse
No, I didn't get the warning for telling people to send hate mail I got the warning because the moderator sais that I was trying to sell my account and using that as a clever excuse. That's what I think is BS. Why should they care if a virtual seller gets some hate mail. Arn't they against virtual sellers as well. Plus, I never said I wonder why I got the warning. I know why I just belive it's a bunch of crap, and I deserve an appolagy. If I don't get it, witch I know I won't, life will go on, but it would be nice if they would step up and admit there misstake. And, if I get booted for good, big deal, I don't want to be part of an over censored forum site that just delete post whenever they feel like it, even if I didn't violate there rules of conduct. Beleve me, there are other forum sites out there that are more open to suggestion, and don't tell people what they can and can't say.
We're sliding away from the topic, but I cannot resist.
They might have given you an inappropriate reason - they might; but even if you're telling the truth, the site policy may easily have been broken.
Is hate mail, spamming with hate mail (and especially when coordinated) legal? If it is not, the mere suggestion would be in breach of policy (by default "Major infraction", but it might not be that harsh). It could also qualify for hateful content. They have, apparently, decided not to treat it as one of these infractions.
But better than trying to pin down the exact paragraph concerning your post, apply common sense and try to match it with the purpose of this site. In this case, take one thing that is not the purpose: To harm other people, members or not, in any way. From all I've seen, that is not how mmorpg.com wishes to operate.
On the other hand, part of their purpose: Exchange of information and opinion (without encouragement of harmful or illegal activities), discussion and possibly entertainment. Try gearing your posts towards that instead, and you'll probably not even need to read the policy to avoid breaking it. Suggesting solutions (legal and benevolent), bringing up problems and similar activities typically qualify for positive participation.
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
I'll admit, you make a lot of sence in there, and I will, from now on, not post anything about flaming anyone or Ebay. But, at the same time, your missing the point. As I said, in the above post, I didn't recive the warning for trying to organize hatemail. I recived it because the moderator sais that I was trying to sell my account, and was using the hatemail as a clever disguise to get people to look at the account. That is completely wrong. If they hadn't deleted the original message, you'd be able to see what I meen. It realy dosn't mater anyway. I just thought it would be nice to see a moderator addmit there mistake, for once. Hiding behind a moderator status is a bit of a cowards way out, as I see it. Basicaly, the point isn't wether or not I violated the user agreement when I posted the the topic, it's that the warning was issued for a bogus reason.
System: Xbox360
Game: Final Fantasy XI
Server: Siren
Primary: Omegaknight
Race: Galka
Level: 20WAR/10MON
Secondary: Omegamule
Race: TaruTaru
Level: 4BLM
Region: Bastok
Linkshell: starsofdestiny
Web Page: www.myspace.com/gurushouse
You recieved a warning because whether it was inadvertently or not, you were advertising the virtual goods.
We are moderators, not psychics: If you advertise it under the guise of rallying hate towards the subject - It would not/does not matter; you advertised the item, none-the-less - And we can not validate whether it was for a hidden agenda, albeit that wouldn't matter, because you did advertise the virtual trade taking place. It would be no different then posting a pornographic image, followed by your textual explanation of disdain for said image, and then being shocked when you get warned for posting pornographic imagery.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
it s a moral decision wether to accept adds from goldseller sites or not.
you can argue about legality until your eyes bleed, legality is not the point.
The point is how the people who visit your site will perceive it, and the decision wether to take money from goldfarmers or not is indeed kind of a big deal to a large segment of the MMO playerbase.
So, yes, it s legal, no you won t get sued, but you can t play with mud and expect to not get dirty.
and that s how a good deal of people will perceive this site s decision -
no matter what you or me think about the issue personally and no matter wether it s legal or not. mud sticks
Technically, selling MMOG items/gold is fraud, sinceyou are selling items you do not own. However, most sellers are aware of this, and don't really "sell" the items, but instead charge you a fee for the transfer of that item - making it clear on their site usually that they are not claiming to own the item, nor are they claiming to transfer ownership to you.
This gets them out of fraud charges, and changes it to simple EULA violation. The biggest weapon devs can usually use against this is banning the accounts, unfortunately, although again - exceptions exist, like where Mythic effectively shut down a company trying to sell DAOC items.
I suspect we'll see more legal challenges forthcoming. Some of the companies engaging in this activity are now large enough to make lawsuits at least a break-even proposition, and it is absolutely critical to MMOG companies that they make at least tacit defenses of their EULAs, for legal purposes. Many of the companies being based overseas helps muddy the issue, however, as these are much harder for US companies to affect through the legal system.
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
It's clear to anyone paying attention, that MMORPG.com practices hypocrisy.
They have made a moral choice to enforce Beta NDAs by deleting posts and banning users who discuss a game as a beta tester during the NDA enforcement period. I know of no case where a game company has sued a Beta tester into oblivion for violating the NDA.
Yet they don't apply the same standard to companies that sell virtual property which violates the EULA.
SHOW ME THE MONEY.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
"HOWEVER, if a game company contacts us and shows us NDA violations
on our site we will BAN YOUR ACCOUNT if they can provide enough
evidence to prove to us that you did this. Your account at MMORPG.com
can be revoked at our sole discretion - and we despise those who
violate NDA agreements and surely don't want them around here."
Whats the difference between a NDA and an EULA? They are both private agreements that do not involve MMORPG.com, but for some reason MMORPG.com is only concerning itself with enforcing the NDAs while profiting off of companies that violate the EULAs.
I'd like to hear an explanation to that one.
SWG RIP
moctodumegws
Can't WAIT!
There is a line between profit and morality and MMORPG has crossed that line.
After this post, i will have nothing to do with this website
Go play on the EQ2 servers or the games that permit crap like that. And stay the hell away from the games that don't. I sincerly believe you and your ilk are in the minority. But you ruin the game(s) for the majority.
Just because you able to do something doesn't mean you should do it. /Salute to the players who play the game the right way.
Just my 2 cents here.
!. Gold buyers/sellers ruin the game economy by flooding the market with large amounts of gold, with gold buyers willing to pay outrageous amounts for an item just because they want it now, driving up the price of items in a short amount of time.
2. You end up with a bunch of n00bs who are suddenly equipped with the best armor/items around and are therefore able to powerlevel their way to high level, only to be of no use to anyone because they don't know how to really play the game and are then upset that noone wants to team with them.
3. You end up with people who are really there to play the game as it is meant to be played leaving because as was pointed out in an earlier post the farmers camp the spots needed for legitimate players to get the things they need to progress.
Go play on the EQ2 servers or the games that permit crap like that. And stay the hell away from the games that don't. I sincerly believe you and your ilk are in the minority. But you ruin the game(s) for the majority.
Just because you able to do something doesn't mean you should do it. /Salute to the players who play the game the right way.
Nope the gaming community is pretty split even on it. 1/3rd For, 1/3rd Against, and 1/3rd that just don't care.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
If someone could recommend another good information site, I'd be with you.
Unfortunately I don't know of another one and that seems to be what MMORPG.com is relying on, the fact that they have no real competition.
You bettter believe they would be singing another tune if a large amount of their site traffic shifted to a competitor. So much for journalistic integrity, hehe.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
"HOWEVER, if a game company contacts us and shows us NDA violations on our site we will BAN YOUR ACCOUNT if they can provide enough evidence to prove to us that you did this. Your account at MMORPG.com can be revoked at our sole discretion - and we despise those who violate NDA agreements and surely don't want them around here."
Whats the difference between a NDA and an EULA? They are both private agreements that do not involve MMORPG.com, but for some reason MMORPG.com is only concerning itself with enforcing the NDAs while profiting off of companies that violate the EULAs.
I'd like to hear an explanation to that one.
I would just like to add that we never allow posts in our forums for NDA violations *or* virtual trading. So I don't see the hypocrisy here. If another website that allowed NDA violators to post in their forums wanted to purchase ad space here we would allow that...that would be their mess to manage and not ours. Please don't confuse our advertising with what we do and don't allow in our forums. We do have morals in who we select for advertisers but it is limited to things that generally harm or strongly offend others or contain illegal content (ie websites encouraging hate, violence, pornography, drugs, etc). I don't think that sites like IGE are going to cause harm to anyone and they are not widespread offensive like porn nor is their actions illegal in any countries laws.
For the record, I personally am against gold farming (but not so much honest player to player trades of virtual items for real world money). However, just because I may be against something does not mean I can decide to not allow it to be advertised on this site. What would be next, I decide not to advertise Game X because I personally don't like it?
I personally despise an NDA violator more than a gold trader because they are getting a free, privledged "test drive" of a product and more or less backstab the company that entrusted them. Whereas a player buying gold is paying a healthy monthly fee to play a game and there are debatable points that he/she might be entitled to sell the things they have earned with their time and money. Again, I don't really like it either and I don't like lots of things in this world, but that does not mean that they cannot advertise on this site. I belong to a US political party too, and regardless of that I would advertise for any party if they approached us.
I have said this before and I will say it now. If you are against these ads then don't click on them. If the performance falls on the ads the advertiser will cease to purchase them. The fact is that this issue is not a cut and dry case. It is a very divided issue and there are good arguments on all sides. We just choose not to take a given stance on it...and not allowing these ads would be exactly that.
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
The dead know only one thing: it is better to be alive.
As Admin said before, your account WILL be banned from MMORPG if a company can show MMORPG that you are violating their NDA.
In this case MMORPG.com becomes an enforcer of a private agreement that does not involve MMORPG.
If I pay to run a banner on the site that reveals something I found out from a game I signed an NDA with you will allow me to as long as I pay?
Seems to me its not so much censorship, but instead you have to pay to say certain things on this site.
SWG RIP
moctodumegws
Can't WAIT!
"HOWEVER, if a game company contacts us and shows us NDA violations on our site we will BAN YOUR ACCOUNT if they can provide enough evidence to prove to us that you did this. Your account at MMORPG.com can be revoked at our sole discretion - and we despise those who violate NDA agreements and surely don't want them around here."
Whats the difference between a NDA and an EULA? They are both private agreements that do not involve MMORPG.com, but for some reason MMORPG.com is only concerning itself with enforcing the NDAs while profiting off of companies that violate the EULAs.
I'd like to hear an explanation to that one.
I would just like to add that we never allow posts in our forums for NDA violations *or* virtual trading. So I don't see the hypocrisy here. If another website that allowed NDA violators to post in their forums wanted to purchase ad space here we would allow that...that would be their mess to manage and not ours. Please don't confuse our advertising with what we do and don't allow in our forums. We do have morals in who we select for advertisers but it is limited to things that generally harm or strongly offend others or contain illegal content (ie websites encouraging hate, violence, pornography, drugs, etc). I don't think that sites like IGE are going to cause harm to anyone and they are not widespread offensive like porn nor is their actions illegal in any countries laws.
For the record, I personally am against gold farming (but not so much honest player to player trades of virtual items for real world money). However, just because I may be against something does not mean I can decide to not allow it to be advertised on this site. What would be next, I decide not to advertise Game X because I personally don't like it?
I personally despise an NDA violator more than a gold trader because they are getting a free, privledged "test drive" of a product and more or less backstab the company that entrusted them. Whereas a player buying gold is paying a healthy monthly fee to play a game and there are debatable points that he/she might be entitled to sell the things they have earned with their time and money. Again, I don't really like it either and I don't like lots of things in this world, but that does not mean that they cannot advertise on this site. I belong to a US political party too, and regardless of that I would advertise for any party if they approached us.
I have said this before and I will say it now. If you are against these ads then don't click on them. If the performance falls on the ads the advertiser will cease to purchase them. The fact is that this issue is not a cut and dry case. It is a very divided issue and there are good arguments on all sides. We just choose not to take a given stance on it...and not allowing these ads would be exactly that.
Correct me if I'm wrond, but didn't I read sometihng that said the only reason MMORPG.com doesn't allow Virtual Trading is because they don't want any legal ramifications to come back and bite them?
Also what is the reason for not allowing a NDA violator to post on this site? As long as MMORPG.com isn't soliciting the information, MMORPG.com is clear of any responsibility.
You choose not to take a given stance on Gold Selling, but you have chosen to take a stance on NDA violations, and arguably there are good arguments on all sides of that issue as well.
Not to actually pull you or anyone else into an actual debate on the properness of a NDA or that of violating it, but purely to illustrate my point that there are good arguments all around.
Arguments could be made that:
- If a company is grossly misrepresenting a game to our fellow community here at MMORPG.com a poster might feel compelled to break the NDA and warn the community of what appears to be the truth.
- NDAs may not all be proper legal agreements.
You state that someone breaking an NDA is essentially backstabbing the company that allows them to play their game for free. An argument could be made that the company benefits from the testing/reporting of bugs. and of course the mere presence of a player allows the company to test their server stability as well as try to woo a potential customer.The same could be said that breaking the EULA or TOS is backstabbing a company. You are effectively agreeing to something and then going behind the company's back you are betraying them.
You make the point that just because you belong to a certain political party does not mean that you are going to deny them the right to advertise on your site.
You may dislike that party, but you don't stop people posting about that party, their opinions on that party or their policies, so your actions are not hypocritical.
However would you not say that if you were to prohibit posting about that party or criticism of yours, but allow advertising from them, that you are instituting a double standard? That double standard being that what you can say to this community depends on your ability to pay to say it.
SWG RIP
moctodumegws
Can't WAIT!
I still see it as neither of these actions are allowed on our forums (NDA breaches or the trading of virtual items for real world money). When they are published in our pages in the form of posts we begin to facilitate a means to do these things - which we have no interest in doing so. This now makes us a sort of IGE site, or in the case of NDA's it makes us some kind of "underground" site that allows this kind of actions. There is a major difference between advertising for a site and publishing content. I have yet to see an example of a publisher being held accountable for the actions of an advertising client who breached a civil contract, and I doubt I will.
The comments on liability or only partly true. Inded we are not liable if someone posts something in our boards that violates a private contract, however - if we are NOTIFIED and made aware of it and fail to take action to remove it we can become a facilitator to the action - and hence we can be summoned into court if the player is brough to suit, and even share in the blame. We don't want to waste our time deleting posts when we are notified and we surely don't want to be called into various courts to take part in legal battles. So to make life easy, just keep this out of our forums...I'm sure there are some "underground" sites out there that will allow this kind of thing...again, if these sites wanted to advertise here we would probably allow it (assuming they did not have other more serious issues like porn or illegal things).
Again I apologize for those that see these ads and feel that we endorse virtual trading. But we do not, nor do we condone it. Like many others we are hoping that someday a major court ruling will set a precident for whether or not players have a right to sell the virtual items they obtain online.
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
The dead know only one thing: it is better to be alive.