In a way a gold seller/account seller is avoiding taxes. It would be funny thogh to bust them for that. To bad that its so hard to trace. In a way you could sue buyers to becose they aint paying taxes on the goods
In a way a gold seller/account seller is avoiding taxes. It would be funny thogh to bust them for that. To bad that its so hard to trace. In a way you could sue buyers to becose they aint paying taxes on the goods In Belgium you eaven pay taxes on hookers
sick goverment
hehe I didnt know that about belgium. i bet in a few years they'll find a way to tax gold sellers though.
I posted this comment in a different thread but believe it is better suited here...
MMORPG.com has stated they will hand over any information they have/can if a user breaks a beta test's NDA, yet they are supporting the selling/buying of virtual goods which is a violation of the Terms of Service agreement the player enters into by allowing advertisements for those services on this site. I wonder how quickly they would change their tune and allow a company that put together an e book of NDA breaking beta info on an upcoming game or games if that company was willing to pay for ad/banner space on this site?
The admin doesn't care. We all know it's hypocrisy. The only thing that will make the admin change his policy is if he feels a financial loss because of promoting gold sellers and powerlevelers and other EULA violating businesses. There is no other real competition to MMORPG.com in terms of another full service MMOG news and information site, so few members are leaving in disgust, and the admin knows it even though a majority don't like it.
Sigil, the producer of Vanguard, and Blizzard, the producer of WoW, have been at the forefront of admonishing sites that promote these activities by running advertisements for them. I have yet to see either game solicit paid advertising on this site yet. With the upcoming release of Vanguard, it will be interesting if Brad Mcquaid, the CEO of Sigil, holds true to his condemnation of sites like MMORPG.com for accepting these advertisements, and continues to withhold paid advertising from this site. Only then, will we see the admin sing a different tune. Brad's integrity will also be on the line.
agreed powerleveling and gold selling is ridiculous especially since you spend about the same amount of money as you would have spent lvling yourself lmao. cruel cruel cruel world.
Here is the most pathetic part of MMORPG.com's argument...
" If the services they offered were not legal, they'd have long since been sued into oblivion."
Even though it is plainly documented that these activities are a violation of the terms of service the user agrees to and the MMO's have actively closed thousands of accounts associated with this behavior.
Remind me as to how many lawsuits have been waged against beta testers leaking beta information as this seems to be the only standard MMORPG.com uses to define what's legal or illegal. And if no lawsuits have been filed why has MMORPG.com said they will give up the personal registration of anyone that leak beta information?
The only difference between the two scenerios is that in the virtual goods service scenerio there is a company willing to spend advertising dollars with this site.
It started a thread in the suggestions forums regarding this topic, and thought i would transfer the information i've come across so far
I has been said that this is a moralistic issue and not a legal one, these are the first i've found, and i will update it as i find more, but these clearly identify that this practice is against either the EULA's or Terms of Use for these games, so while it may be not be illegal in the context of the real world, it is illegal in the context of the games. also, as it has been said, illegal and not having legal action taken against are two very different concepts.... it would be a monstrous money sink on the parts of the game companies to try and prosecute everyone that is/has done this within the confines of their games. taking action against one instance of this occuring would not be effective, and trying to close down the whole secondary market would be prohibitive from the expense required to fight... anyway i'm done ranting, here's what i've found so far.
Example 1) WoW Terms of Usethis game appears on virtualsellers main page
Remember, at the outset of these Terms of Use, where we discussed how you were "licensed" the right to use World of Warcraft, and that your license was "limited"? Well, here is one of the more important areas where these license limitations come into effect. Note that Blizzard Entertainment either owns, or has exclusively licensed, all of the content which appears in World of Warcraft. Therefore, no one has the right to "sell" Blizzard Entertainment's content, except Blizzard Entertainment! So Blizzard Entertainment does not recognize any property claims outside of World of Warcraft or the purported sale, gift or trade in the "real world" of anything related to World of Warcraft. Accordingly, you may not sell items for "real" money or exchange items outside of World of Warcraft.
Example 2) EQ II EULAthis game appears on virtualsellers main page
Except in connection with Station Exchange and subject to all of the provisions of the Station Exchange Service Agreement, you may not buy, sell or auction (or host or facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any Game account, characters, items, coin or copyrighted material or any other intellectual property owned or controlled by us or our licensors without first obtaining our express written permission.
8. We and our licensors and suppliers shall retain all rights, title and interest, including, without limitation, ownership of all intellectual property rights relating to or residing in the Disc, the Software and the Game, all copies thereof, and all game character data in connection therewith. You acknowledge and agree that you have not and will not acquire or obtain any intellectual property or other rights, including any right of exploitation, of any kind in or to the Disc, the Software or the Game, including, without limitation, in any artwork, music, character(s), item(s), monetary unit(s) or other material or property, and/or any compilation or copyrightable arrangement of any of the above (collectively, Rights), and that all such property, material, items and Rights are exclusively owned by us except solely as SOE may permit you to exploit Virtual Goods in connection with Station Exchange.
Example 4) DDO EULAthis game appears on virtualsellers main page
Except as expressly permitted by Turbine by written notice (and in such event in accordance with Turbines specified restrictions and guidelines), you may not buy, sell, or auction (or offer, host, or facilitate the ability of others, to buy, sell, or auction), share, or otherwise commercially exploit, the Software or any part of the Game, account, password, characters, housing, items, credits, currency or coin or any other virtual in-game items and/or copyrighted, trademarked or patented material contained in or generated by the Game.
example 5) Guild Warsthis game appears on virtualsellers main page
7. OFFICIAL SERVICE
The Game(s) is designed for official play only as offered through the Service by NC Interactive at the Web Site and not through any other means. You further agree not to access, create or provide any other means through which Game(s) may be played by others, as through server emulators. You agree not to use any hardware or software, including but not limited to third party tools, or any other method of support which may in any way influence or advantage your use of the Service which is not authorized by NC Interactive, including but not limited to the use of 'bots' and/or any other method by which the Service may be played automatically without human input. You acknowledge that you do not have the right to create, publish, distribute, create derivative works from or use any software programs, utilities, applications, emulators or tools derived from or created for the Game(s), except that you may use the Software to the extent expressly permitted by this Agreement. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure. You may not sell or auction any Game(s) accounts, characters, items, coin or copyrighted material, nor may you assist others in doing so.
example 6) Star Wars Galaxiesthis game appears on virtualsellers main page
You may not buy, sell or auction (or host or facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any Account or any Game characters, items, credits or copyrighted material or any other intellectual property owned or controlled by us or our licensors without first obtaining our express written permission.
Example 7) Runescape this game appears on virtualsellers main page
Rule 12 - Real World Item Trading
RuneScape items must only be exchanged for other items/services within the game.
Exchanging RuneScape items for items or other benefits in other online games, real-life money or other real-life benefits is not allowed.
He may not sell or auction any of the PlayNC accounts, Game accounts, avatars, items, currency or copyrighted material.
Example 9) EVE Terms of Usethis game appears on virtualsellers main page
3.2 If you download software, files and images contained in or generated by software, or data accompanying software (collectively referred to as the Software) from the Web Site then you are deemed to have downloaded such Software solely for your personal, noncommercial home use. CCP transfers neither the title nor the intellectual property rights to the Software upon the download of the Software.
"We aren't going to ... Period. End of statement."
It's interesting to see so many sites giving in to the goldsellers.
My fansite (WoW Radio) receives huge numbers of offers for advertising and even buyouts, large amounts of money that would most certainly end the current financial hell I'm putting myself through IRL.
It's about having a damn spine. MMORPG does not host large files. Warcraftmovies on the other hand does, and they have gold-selling ads. Ok, that's somewhat more acceptable. I still think they could do far better for themselves with the huge amount of traffic they get, but I can at least understand their position due to their huge bills (their traffic rivals if not beats hands-down MMORPG.com, and they host large files as well, in fact that is the reason people go there). We host 50mb+ archives and 100mb+ videos. We got 60,000+ downloads of our Death and Taxes guild interview, and that's just one of the features we've done. We put out 7 shows a week, even the least popular gets thousands of downloads. We're readily accessible via RSS to users of iTunes and other podcasting facilities. You want to hear about getting your bandwidth owned? Try having Blizzard hotlink a 50 meg archive on worldofwarcraft.com. Then you'll know the meaning of pain.
Yet somehow we've pulled through without giving in to that. Sure, we're smaller.. but smaller sites than ours have given in and y'know what, with effort traffic brings interested advertisers. You can see that right now even on this site, Matrox ads, Zboard ads, all this kind of stuff that dreams are made of which we would kill for yet have not been able to obtain and yet this site feels the need to give into scum like that?
You want to know how much goldfarming is harming games like this? Ok try this one on for size. There is substantial evidence to suggest that some of these companies endorse the use of keyloggers to hijack the accounts of innocent players, and nexus their gear in order to make money, then when possible stick a farming script on the account and let it run around making them money, before it's banned and they move onto the next. These people are locusts, they are the scum of the earth. They exploit chinese labour for massive profits at the expense of the developers who code and run these games, and at the expense of the players and their play experience. Farming screws over in-game economies, it makes grinding for things you need a lot harder because the spots are always covered in bots, it ruins in-game immersion and encourages a lazy attitude in players. It friggin sucks.
At this point you have to decide, are you a site that loves gaming, or are you a business simply out to make money? Myself? I'd like to make my site commercially successful without selling my soul in order to do it and y'know what, having scruples and values has got my site past the 2 year mark through everything the net and the WoW community can throw at it, so I guess we must be doing something right.
There is a word for the current situation. 'Sellout'.
Originally posted by Totalbiscuit It's interesting to see so many sites giving in to the goldsellers.
My fansite (WoW Radio) receives huge numbers of offers for advertising and even buyouts, large amounts of money that would most certainly end the current financial hell I'm putting myself through IRL.
It's about having a damn spine. MMORPG does not host large files. Warcraftmovies on the other hand does, and they have gold-selling ads. Ok, acceptable. We host 50mb+ archives and 100mb+ videos. We got 60,000+ downloads of our Death and Taxes guild interview, and that's just one of the features we've done. We put out 7 shows a week, even the least popular gets thousands of downloads. We're readily accessible via RSS to users of iTunes and other podcasting facilities. You want to hear about getting your bandwidth owned? Try having Blizzard hotlink a 50 meg archive on worldofwarcraft.com. Then you'll know the meaning of pain.
Yet somehow we've pulled through without giving in to that. Sure, we're smaller.. but smaller sites than ours have given in and y'know what, with effort traffic brings interested advertisers. You can see that right now even on this site, Matrox ads, Zboard ads, all this kind of stuff that dreams are made of which we would kill for yet have not been able to obtain and yet this site feels the need to give into scum like that?
You want to know how much goldfarming is harming games like this? Ok try this one on for size. There is substantial evidence to suggest that some of these companies endorse the use of keyloggers to hijack the accounts of innocent players, and nexus their gear in order to make money, then when possible stick a farming script on the account and let it run around making them money, before it's banned and they move onto the next. These people are locusts, they are the scum of the earth. They exploit chinese labour for massive profits at the expense of the developers who code and run these games, and at the expense of the players and their play experience. Farming screws over in-game economies, it makes grinding for things you need a lot harder because the spots are always covered in bots, it ruins in-game immersion and encourages a lazy attitude in players. It friggin sucks.
At this point you have to decide, are you a site that loves gaming, or are you a business simply out to make money? Myself? I'd like to make my site commercially successful without selling my soul in order to do it and y'know what, having scruples and values has got my site past the 2 year mark through everything the net and the WoW community can throw at it, so I guess we must be doing something right.
There is a word for the current situation. 'Sellout'.
TB.
Best post ever!
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Totalbiscuit It's interesting to see so many sites giving in to the goldsellers.
My fansite (WoW Radio) receives huge numbers of offers for advertising and even buyouts, large amounts of money that would most certainly end the current financial hell I'm putting myself through IRL.
It's about having a damn spine. MMORPG does not host large files. Warcraftmovies on the other hand does, and they have gold-selling ads. Ok, that's somewhat more acceptable. I still think they could do far better for themselves with the huge amount of traffic they get, but I can at least understand their position due to their huge bills (their traffic rivals if not beats hands-down MMORPG.com, and they host large files as well, in fact that is the reason people go there). We host 50mb+ archives and 100mb+ videos. We got 60,000+ downloads of our Death and Taxes guild interview, and that's just one of the features we've done. We put out 7 shows a week, even the least popular gets thousands of downloads. We're readily accessible via RSS to users of iTunes and other podcasting facilities. You want to hear about getting your bandwidth owned? Try having Blizzard hotlink a 50 meg archive on worldofwarcraft.com. Then you'll know the meaning of pain.
Yet somehow we've pulled through without giving in to that. Sure, we're smaller.. but smaller sites than ours have given in and y'know what, with effort traffic brings interested advertisers. You can see that right now even on this site, Matrox ads, Zboard ads, all this kind of stuff that dreams are made of which we would kill for yet have not been able to obtain and yet this site feels the need to give into scum like that?
You want to know how much goldfarming is harming games like this? Ok try this one on for size. There is substantial evidence to suggest that some of these companies endorse the use of keyloggers to hijack the accounts of innocent players, and nexus their gear in order to make money, then when possible stick a farming script on the account and let it run around making them money, before it's banned and they move onto the next. These people are locusts, they are the scum of the earth. They exploit chinese labour for massive profits at the expense of the developers who code and run these games, and at the expense of the players and their play experience. Farming screws over in-game economies, it makes grinding for things you need a lot harder because the spots are always covered in bots, it ruins in-game immersion and encourages a lazy attitude in players. It friggin sucks.
At this point you have to decide, are you a site that loves gaming, or are you a business simply out to make money? Myself? I'd like to make my site commercially successful without selling my soul in order to do it and y'know what, having scruples and values has got my site past the 2 year mark through everything the net and the WoW community can throw at it, so I guess we must be doing something right.
There is a word for the current situation. 'Sellout'.
TB.
So so true
Member of the Dancing Asgard Guild on the Stargate Worlds Forum All Asgard Dance ALL of them
If business was as simple as you make out we would all be millionaires without having to even get up in the morning.
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Yes it is about having a spine, and the admin has none. His interest is money over game integrity.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Jorev Yes it is about having a spine, and the admin has none. His interest is money over game integrity.
Must be like 12 or 18 months you and I have been having this debate Jorev.
Managed to find any evidence to support your claims of virtual trading ruining games yet ?
I think that considering WoW is over 2 years old now and is rife with virtual trading yet continues to grow and succeed pretty much cans that argument completely.
Your dwelling in a fantasy realm where people are on level playing fields. Nothing in life is like that, not sport, not education, not work, nothing. Yet you expect it in a game..... odd
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I agree with people that are opposed to the goldselling adds. I risk repeating someones thoughts (couldnt read all 4 pages of posts), but enforcing one rule that goes against EULA (NDA breakers) and ignoring another rule (virtual item trading) is indeed hypocrisy. Yes its not against federal or state law, but it is against the in-game law. I love MMORPG.COM, it has been a home for me and my rants for the last few years. These goldselling adds and neutral support from the part of MMORPG.COM sadden my heart. its wrong to enforce one rule while turning a blind eye on the other.
Yeah no1 will ever sue no1 else becuase of this. Its not worth it, even if it was possible. Thats when ethics kick in. Doesnt matter if gold selling ruins communities or not, it is against the rule in most games. MMORPG.COM should stopadvertising companies that deal in gold selling activites in games where it is against their rules to do so. This is a wish of a hardcore MMORPG.COM fan. I hope you guys make the right decision.
Anyone who has read right through this knows I am against gold selling and why.
However I am also against rampant speculation posing as fact.
In the abscence of evidence supporting the notion that virtual trade ruins in game economies..... its like asking the Government to pass a law against Aliens walking the streets. It might make some people feel better but considering we dont know if aliens are actually walking the streets or not..... whats the point exactly ??
Brad Mquaid saying hes against it, doesnt make it factually accurate any more than anyone else saying it.
18 pages and no evidence..... what can I say.....
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
My point was not whether this hurts in-game economies (I personaly think it does, but as far as I know there were no scientific studies conducted regarding this matter to prove one way or the other) but rather if it is against the rules of that specific game company to do it or not. MMORPG.COM enforces game's rules by deleting posts which are breaking their NDA statements, but not enforcing posts ( I consider advertising just like any other post ) that relate to breaking EULA by selling gold and items.
From a guy-who-knows-nothing-about-law perspective, EULA and NDA is the same thing, they make u sign a bunch of rules by which they expect you to comply to and act according to those rules and regulations.
My question: does breaking EULA a lesser crime (not a federal or state crime, but "in-game" crime) then breaking NDA?
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
If by evidence you mean making my time playing mmorpgs less enjoyable? Then sure.
I play WoW for now. Sometimes I get 'mail'. Most times its something I bought or sold in the auction house. Other times stuff from guildmates. And others its an advirtisement from gold sellers. Some times I get whispers from them. Annoying as hell. Would like to literally punch them in the nose.
Mr editor how can you be objective in the debate when you have your hands in the pockets of the goldfarmers? or is it the other way around. Answer you can't.
Originally posted by Porfat If by evidence you mean making my time playing mmorpgs less enjoyable? Then sure. I play WoW for now. Sometimes I get 'mail'. Most times its something I bought or sold in the auction house. Other times stuff from guildmates. And others its an advirtisement from gold sellers. Some times I get whispers from them. Annoying as hell. Would like to literally punch them in the nose. Mr editor how can you be objective in the debate when you have your hands in the pockets of the goldfarmers? or is it the other way around. Answer you can't.
By evidence I mean a single hard factoid to support the assertion that RMT ruins in game economies. That phrase is so bandied about it has been accepted as fact when in reality the evidence is overwhelmingly the opposite.
No MMO current or former has closed down, changed its economy in a major way or otherwise been affected so badly that anyone could argue "RMT ruined the economy". Indeed almost every popular MMO you want to name continues to run with no discernable effect on the economy despite RMT's being rife. It is simply an assertion that has no basis in fact that I have yet to see.
So Im saying if you could show me a graph or a set of numbers that supported the notion that an in game economy was being adversely affected by RMT's, I would be the first one to say "well there ya go I was wrong". However the simple FACT is I have been MMO gaming since well before UO and have played every game on the list at one time or another, plus some others and I have yet to see anything that makes me believe RMT's ruin economies.
I have seen lots of evidence that the prices of basic goods in some games are affected by the amount of gold held by a percentage of players. But as I have pointed out many many times (in this thread), it is impossible to separate the effects of maxed out mains twinking thier alts and a number of other factors from RMT's, that is just a FACT! If you dont think it is then prove me wrong by showing us something that supports your argument. The burden of proof is on the person making the assertion Im sorry.
I play WoW and I get the same mails. Im pretty certain I would still get them whether this site ran ads or not. The fact that WoW has an economy that lends itself to RMT's is down to Blizzard. They could fix it in a heartbeat (I have already said how in this thread) but they choose not to.
By Mr Editor I assume your refering to me....
I am not the editor of this site however and I am also a volunteer. I gain no percentage benefit from the ads that run on this site. My remuneration would be the same in the presence or abscence of these ads.
I am against gold farming (for the 400th time) on the basis that it ruins my suspension of disbelief. But I cannot be against it on the basis that it ruins economies, because as far as I have seen in my 10 years in this biz..... that simply isnt true.
Also I think you need to understand that people are capable of holding an opinion despite thier situation. Im sure there are things you disagree with your workplace about and your opinion is not affected by your wages. Please give me and others the benefit of the same doubt. You can see by the disclaimer at the bottom of my sig and by the fact that my posts arnt deleted that I am able to disagree with this site's policies without being edited.
I wont say anymore because I dont want to be seen as "monstering" anyone into agreeing with me. But I encourage any of you to PM me if you wish to continue the debate with me. Im ALWAYS HAPPY to get PM's from members on anything.
But remember, this is page 19 and as yet no one has been able to put forward anything that conclusively proves the assertion that RMT's ruin in game economies.... that says more than I could ever say if I sat here till doomsday.
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I don't think it ruins games, au contraire, it provides capitalistic opportunities for entrepreneurs and a means to keep Chinese and Mexicans employed. But forgive me if I don't part with one groat to buy anything off one of these entrepreneurs.
Goldselling doesn't hurt economies, it promotes player behavior that hurts game economies.
An exploit/hack, a farmer or a bot are damaging to the game-economy in my opinion. That is in the sense that the farmed item or gold will be harder to obtain by the player who doesn't go into those practices. Ideally the difficulty to obtain an item needed for quests or pvp would be set by the gm team of a game, not by the free market economy of the game. The free market can alter the difficulty and if it's through the aforementionned ways, it's my opinion that the limit gets pushed too far. I think we're free to assume that if there were no out of game transactions, the farming phenomenon would be far less important and thus the difficulty of participating in an economy for a casual player would diminue.
I'm very much against the principle of gold trading because I consider it cheating the "competition". Before I go on I would like to point out that someone convinced me that mmos are not games but that they are toys. I'm certain that most people who buy gold don't view it as a "game" or a "toy" even, they view it as a competition without rules, because there are no punishments with sufficient impact for getting caught.
I came back to this topic because last night I was told again that we should just deal with the fact that there is trading going on that makes it unfair if you're looking at an mmo as a competition. I think we would be far better off if those buying realized there's no way to "win" an mmorpg. It's much like renting a movie, you don't hit fast-forward because your neighbour already watched it. Once you realize that you can realize that it's a bit stupid to pay extra for enjoying the game less and those jealous of goldbuyers can just because they "lost" should go have a good laugh.
We shouldn't deal with it, the gaming companies should deal with it instead of considering how to take that profit into their own pockets. It all comes down to ethical business and customers deciding if they care about that when it doesn't affect them personally . I'm not going to come back on the add running on the site, I think I backed my point up sufficiently in that regard.
Gold is gold and I think the same the gold doest destroy games
I am Pro of everything that can help game industry overall. I think game ads make game companies rich and help them make better games so there is no problem with them.
If business was as simple as you make out we would all be millionaires without having to even get up in the morning.
Are you implying that everyone has a spine. In my experience on this here planet, 99.99% of people seem to lack one. It's never easy, doesn't mean ya have to cave into the offers of unethical scum. To be quite honest I'd rather my site be popular and actually viewed as credible and respectable due to our morals than be pulling in cash from people who worship it like it's God and will do anything no matter how unseemly in order to acquire it, at the expense of player's enjoyment.
You were asking for evidence I believe that goldfarming is bad mkay? Well here's a few starters for 10.
Scenario - You are in a raiding guild, going to farm elemental earth for C'thun attempts. This is of course based on a true story. All of the farmable areas are absolutely covered in bots, as they are well aware that guilds at this stage of play require this particular item. They can monopolise and corner the market (this is basic economics, if you are in control of the entire supply, then you can pretty much dictate the price that the demand must pay for it), forcing prices up beyond reasonable levels. This in turn encourages the purchase of gold, because raiders (and raiding is the only worthwhile thing in WoW at this point in time, always has been, it's the thing Blizzard really did right imho) do not have the time to go and farm the cash in order to purchase said items from the auction house. If I were to go via gold/hour, it is significantly cheaper for me to buy gold to purchase said items than it is to farm it myself. Time is money friend and all that, and time is a precious commodity in the case of most.
You may ask me 'Well if the bots did not exist then players would do the same thing'. Possibly, however players fatigue, players get bored, players can't do that 24/7 no matter how insane they may be and it's also a matter of who the farming benefits. Does it benefit players who pay their subscriptions to acquire ingame items for ingame gain (the mystical fourth wall perhaps?) or does it benefit large companies, at the expense of player enjoyment, for worldly gain? Which is better I ask you?
And that's not even covering the sheer annoyance of it all. The constant spam and junk mail, the annoying thought that even in this so-called virtual sanctuary, someone is still going to try and take your money off your hands. Advertising bombards us everywhere these days, it would be nice to actually have a place where someone isn't trying to con me out of my wages.
Let's also talk about the idea of a level playing field. You I believe said at one point that there is no such thing and that there will always be rich and poor etc. Sure, true, but there can be a level-playing field to the degree of your wallet not giving an advantage in game. Sure, time spent, to a tiny extent skill and of course luck are factors which 'unbalance' the field but I'd take that any day of the week over being owned in the face by someone who has spent X number of dollars on this amazing gear which makes him, in this game requiring little skill what-so-ever, into an unrivalled killing machine. Thankfully this will only get you so far in WoW, though I have seen players in Full Tier2.5 who have never even run MC before. The reason is quite simple, guilds are getting to the stage of being able to sell this gear to players. A guild on my server charged 5000g per set. Please do not tell me that someone would have the time to farm this amount of money and yet not to get involved in a raiding guild and actually have some fun. That money was bought, pure and simple. That's one more guy who has gear which he shouldn't. What he then does to other players because of owning this gear and thus being far more powerful than he should be has a negative effect on them to varying degrees. This would not have happened were that gold not available for purchase.
Those are just a few examples of it. I'm sure I could sit down and write a paper on the subject but I'd rather just make fun of it in my movies and spend my time doing something worthwhile for the community. As regards to paying the bills for a large website, been there, done that, got the t-shirt, without the commercial backing that this site has managed to gain, and yet we're still there and succeeding where a million and one other internet radio stations have fallen flat on their arses. If you require gold-selling ads to maintain your business then I would take a long hard look at the dynamics of it, since something is glaringly wrong if a site like this cannot attract the neccessary corporate backing to pay the bills and make some money on the side as a business.
Comments
hehe I didnt know that about belgium. i bet in a few years they'll find a way to tax gold sellers though.
moved to end of thread..... having added stuff to my list...
"We aren't going to ... Period. End of statement."
ya. ok. whatever.
but what do i know, i'm only a vanbois i'm told.
I posted this comment in a different thread but believe it is better suited here...
MMORPG.com has stated they will hand over any information they have/can if a user breaks a beta test's NDA, yet they are supporting the selling/buying of virtual goods which is a violation of the Terms of Service agreement the player enters into by allowing advertisements for those services on this site. I wonder how quickly they would change their tune and allow a company that put together an e book of NDA breaking beta info on an upcoming game or games if that company was willing to pay for ad/banner space on this site?
The admin doesn't care. We all know it's hypocrisy. The only thing that will make the admin change his policy is if he feels a financial loss because of promoting gold sellers and powerlevelers and other EULA violating businesses. There is no other real competition to MMORPG.com in terms of another full service MMOG news and information site, so few members are leaving in disgust, and the admin knows it even though a majority don't like it.
Sigil, the producer of Vanguard, and Blizzard, the producer of WoW, have been at the forefront of admonishing sites that promote these activities by running advertisements for them. I have yet to see either game solicit paid advertising on this site yet. With the upcoming release of Vanguard, it will be interesting if Brad Mcquaid, the CEO of Sigil, holds true to his condemnation of sites like MMORPG.com for accepting these advertisements, and continues to withhold paid advertising from this site. Only then, will we see the admin sing a different tune. Brad's integrity will also be on the line.
Here is the most pathetic part of MMORPG.com's argument...
" If the services they offered were not legal, they'd have long since been sued into oblivion."
Even though it is plainly documented that these activities are a violation of the terms of service the user agrees to and the MMO's have actively closed thousands of accounts associated with this behavior.
Remind me as to how many lawsuits have been waged against beta testers leaking beta information as this seems to be the only standard MMORPG.com uses to define what's legal or illegal. And if no lawsuits have been filed why has MMORPG.com said they will give up the personal registration of anyone that leak beta information?
The only difference between the two scenerios is that in the virtual goods service scenerio there is a company willing to spend advertising dollars with this site.
It started a thread in the suggestions forums regarding this topic, and thought i would transfer the information i've come across so far
I has been said that this is a moralistic issue and not a legal one, these are the first i've found, and i will update it as i find more, but these clearly identify that this practice is against either the EULA's or Terms of Use for these games, so while it may be not be illegal in the context of the real world, it is illegal in the context of the games. also, as it has been said, illegal and not having legal action taken against are two very different concepts.... it would be a monstrous money sink on the parts of the game companies to try and prosecute everyone that is/has done this within the confines of their games. taking action against one instance of this occuring would not be effective, and trying to close down the whole secondary market would be prohibitive from the expense required to fight... anyway i'm done ranting, here's what i've found so far.
Example 1) WoW Terms of Use this game appears on virtualsellers main page
Remember, at the outset of these Terms of Use, where we discussed how you were "licensed" the right to use World of Warcraft, and that your license was "limited"? Well, here is one of the more important areas where these license limitations come into effect. Note that Blizzard Entertainment either owns, or has exclusively licensed, all of the content which appears in World of Warcraft. Therefore, no one has the right to "sell" Blizzard Entertainment's content, except Blizzard Entertainment! So Blizzard Entertainment does not recognize any property claims outside of World of Warcraft or the purported sale, gift or trade in the "real world" of anything related to World of Warcraft. Accordingly, you may not sell items for "real" money or exchange items outside of World of Warcraft.
Example 2) EQ II EULA this game appears on virtualsellers main page
Except in connection with Station Exchange and subject to all of the provisions of the Station Exchange Service Agreement, you may not buy, sell or auction (or host or facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any Game account, characters, items, coin or copyrighted material or any other intellectual property owned or controlled by us or our licensors without first obtaining our express written permission.
Example 3) Matrix Online EULA
8. We and our licensors and suppliers shall retain all rights, title and interest, including, without limitation, ownership of all intellectual property rights relating to or residing in the Disc, the Software and the Game, all copies thereof, and all game character data in connection therewith. You acknowledge and agree that you have not and will not acquire or obtain any intellectual property or other rights, including any right of exploitation, of any kind in or to the Disc, the Software or the Game, including, without limitation, in any artwork, music, character(s), item(s), monetary unit(s) or other material or property, and/or any compilation or copyrightable arrangement of any of the above (collectively, Rights), and that all such property, material, items and Rights are exclusively owned by us except solely as SOE may permit you to exploit Virtual Goods in connection with Station Exchange.
Example 4) DDO EULA this game appears on virtualsellers main page
Except as expressly permitted by Turbine by written notice (and in such event in accordance with Turbines specified restrictions and guidelines), you may not buy, sell, or auction (or offer, host, or facilitate the ability of others, to buy, sell, or auction), share, or otherwise commercially exploit, the Software or any part of the Game, account, password, characters, housing, items, credits, currency or coin or any other virtual in-game items and/or copyrighted, trademarked or patented material contained in or generated by the Game.
example 5) Guild Wars this game appears on virtualsellers main page
7. OFFICIAL SERVICE
The Game(s) is designed for official play only as offered through the Service by NC Interactive at the Web Site and not through any other means. You further agree not to access, create or provide any other means through which Game(s) may be played by others, as through server emulators. You agree not to use any hardware or software, including but not limited to third party tools, or any other method of support which may in any way influence or advantage your use of the Service which is not authorized by NC Interactive, including but not limited to the use of 'bots' and/or any other method by which the Service may be played automatically without human input. You acknowledge that you do not have the right to create, publish, distribute, create derivative works from or use any software programs, utilities, applications, emulators or tools derived from or created for the Game(s), except that you may use the Software to the extent expressly permitted by this Agreement. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure. You may not sell or auction any Game(s) accounts, characters, items, coin or copyrighted material, nor may you assist others in doing so.
example 6) Star Wars Galaxies this game appears on virtualsellers main page
You may not buy, sell or auction (or host or facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any Account or any Game characters, items, credits or copyrighted material or any other intellectual property owned or controlled by us or our licensors without first obtaining our express written permission.
Example 7) Runescape this game appears on virtualsellers main page
Rule 12 - Real World Item Trading
Exchanging RuneScape items for items or other benefits in other online games, real-life money or other real-life benefits is not allowed.
He may not sell or auction any of the PlayNC accounts, Game accounts, avatars, items, currency or copyrighted material.
Example 9) EVE Terms of Use this game appears on virtualsellers main page"We aren't going to ... Period. End of statement."
ya. ok. whatever.
but what do i know, i'm only a vanbois i'm told.
It's interesting to see so many sites giving in to the goldsellers.
My fansite (WoW Radio) receives huge numbers of offers for advertising and even buyouts, large amounts of money that would most certainly end the current financial hell I'm putting myself through IRL.
It's about having a damn spine. MMORPG does not host large files. Warcraftmovies on the other hand does, and they have gold-selling ads. Ok, that's somewhat more acceptable. I still think they could do far better for themselves with the huge amount of traffic they get, but I can at least understand their position due to their huge bills (their traffic rivals if not beats hands-down MMORPG.com, and they host large files as well, in fact that is the reason people go there). We host 50mb+ archives and 100mb+ videos. We got 60,000+ downloads of our Death and Taxes guild interview, and that's just one of the features we've done. We put out 7 shows a week, even the least popular gets thousands of downloads. We're readily accessible via RSS to users of iTunes and other podcasting facilities. You want to hear about getting your bandwidth owned? Try having Blizzard hotlink a 50 meg archive on worldofwarcraft.com. Then you'll know the meaning of pain.
Yet somehow we've pulled through without giving in to that. Sure, we're smaller.. but smaller sites than ours have given in and y'know what, with effort traffic brings interested advertisers. You can see that right now even on this site, Matrox ads, Zboard ads, all this kind of stuff that dreams are made of which we would kill for yet have not been able to obtain and yet this site feels the need to give into scum like that?
You want to know how much goldfarming is harming games like this? Ok try this one on for size. There is substantial evidence to suggest that some of these companies endorse the use of keyloggers to hijack the accounts of innocent players, and nexus their gear in order to make money, then when possible stick a farming script on the account and let it run around making them money, before it's banned and they move onto the next. These people are locusts, they are the scum of the earth. They exploit chinese labour for massive profits at the expense of the developers who code and run these games, and at the expense of the players and their play experience. Farming screws over in-game economies, it makes grinding for things you need a lot harder because the spots are always covered in bots, it ruins in-game immersion and encourages a lazy attitude in players. It friggin sucks.
At this point you have to decide, are you a site that loves gaming, or are you a business simply out to make money? Myself? I'd like to make my site commercially successful without selling my soul in order to do it and y'know what, having scruples and values has got my site past the 2 year mark through everything the net and the WoW community can throw at it, so I guess we must be doing something right.
There is a word for the current situation. 'Sellout'.
TB.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
Member of the Dancing Asgard Guild on the Stargate Worlds Forum
All Asgard Dance ALL of them
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
Must be like 12 or 18 months you and I have been having this debate Jorev.
Managed to find any evidence to support your claims of virtual trading ruining games yet ?
I think that considering WoW is over 2 years old now and is rife with virtual trading yet continues to grow and succeed pretty much cans that argument completely.
Your dwelling in a fantasy realm where people are on level playing fields. Nothing in life is like that, not sport, not education, not work, nothing. Yet you expect it in a game..... odd
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
I risk repeating someones thoughts (couldnt read all 4 pages of posts), but enforcing one rule that goes against EULA (NDA breakers) and ignoring another rule (virtual item trading) is indeed hypocrisy. Yes its not against federal or state law, but it is against the in-game law.
I love MMORPG.COM, it has been a home for me and my rants for the last few years. These goldselling adds and neutral support from the part of MMORPG.COM sadden my heart. its wrong to enforce one rule while turning a blind eye on the other.
Yeah no1 will ever sue no1 else becuase of this. Its not worth it, even if it was possible. Thats when ethics kick in. Doesnt matter if gold selling ruins communities or not, it is against the rule in most games. MMORPG.COM should stopadvertising companies that deal in gold selling activites in games where it is against their rules to do so. This is a wish of a hardcore MMORPG.COM fan. I hope you guys make the right decision.
Peace.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Anyone who has read right through this knows I am against gold selling and why.
However I am also against rampant speculation posing as fact.
In the abscence of evidence supporting the notion that virtual trade ruins in game economies..... its like asking the Government to pass a law against Aliens walking the streets. It might make some people feel better but considering we dont know if aliens are actually walking the streets or not..... whats the point exactly ??
Brad Mquaid saying hes against it, doesnt make it factually accurate any more than anyone else saying it.
18 pages and no evidence..... what can I say.....
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
From a guy-who-knows-nothing-about-law perspective, EULA and NDA is the same thing, they make u sign a bunch of rules by which they expect you to comply to and act according to those rules and regulations.
My question: does breaking EULA a lesser crime (not a federal or state crime, but "in-game" crime) then breaking NDA?
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
If by evidence you mean making my time playing mmorpgs less enjoyable? Then sure.
I play WoW for now. Sometimes I get 'mail'. Most times its something I bought or sold in the auction house. Other times stuff from guildmates. And others its an advirtisement from gold sellers. Some times I get whispers from them. Annoying as hell. Would like to literally punch them in the nose.
Mr editor how can you be objective in the debate when you have your hands in the pockets of the goldfarmers? or is it the other way around. Answer you can't.
By evidence I mean a single hard factoid to support the assertion that RMT ruins in game economies. That phrase is so bandied about it has been accepted as fact when in reality the evidence is overwhelmingly the opposite.
No MMO current or former has closed down, changed its economy in a major way or otherwise been affected so badly that anyone could argue "RMT ruined the economy". Indeed almost every popular MMO you want to name continues to run with no discernable effect on the economy despite RMT's being rife. It is simply an assertion that has no basis in fact that I have yet to see.
So Im saying if you could show me a graph or a set of numbers that supported the notion that an in game economy was being adversely affected by RMT's, I would be the first one to say "well there ya go I was wrong". However the simple FACT is I have been MMO gaming since well before UO and have played every game on the list at one time or another, plus some others and I have yet to see anything that makes me believe RMT's ruin economies.
I have seen lots of evidence that the prices of basic goods in some games are affected by the amount of gold held by a percentage of players. But as I have pointed out many many times (in this thread), it is impossible to separate the effects of maxed out mains twinking thier alts and a number of other factors from RMT's, that is just a FACT! If you dont think it is then prove me wrong by showing us something that supports your argument. The burden of proof is on the person making the assertion Im sorry.
I play WoW and I get the same mails. Im pretty certain I would still get them whether this site ran ads or not. The fact that WoW has an economy that lends itself to RMT's is down to Blizzard. They could fix it in a heartbeat (I have already said how in this thread) but they choose not to.
By Mr Editor I assume your refering to me....
I am not the editor of this site however and I am also a volunteer. I gain no percentage benefit from the ads that run on this site. My remuneration would be the same in the presence or abscence of these ads.
I am against gold farming (for the 400th time) on the basis that it ruins my suspension of disbelief. But I cannot be against it on the basis that it ruins economies, because as far as I have seen in my 10 years in this biz..... that simply isnt true.
Also I think you need to understand that people are capable of holding an opinion despite thier situation. Im sure there are things you disagree with your workplace about and your opinion is not affected by your wages. Please give me and others the benefit of the same doubt. You can see by the disclaimer at the bottom of my sig and by the fact that my posts arnt deleted that I am able to disagree with this site's policies without being edited.
I wont say anymore because I dont want to be seen as "monstering" anyone into agreeing with me. But I encourage any of you to PM me if you wish to continue the debate with me. Im ALWAYS HAPPY to get PM's from members on anything.
But remember, this is page 19 and as yet no one has been able to put forward anything that conclusively proves the assertion that RMT's ruin in game economies.... that says more than I could ever say if I sat here till doomsday.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
I don't think it ruins games, au contraire, it provides capitalistic opportunities for entrepreneurs and a means to keep Chinese and Mexicans employed. But forgive me if I don't part with one groat to buy anything off one of these entrepreneurs.
Goldselling doesn't hurt economies, it promotes player behavior that hurts game economies.
An exploit/hack, a farmer or a bot are damaging to the game-economy in my opinion. That is in the sense that the farmed item or gold will be harder to obtain by the player who doesn't go into those practices. Ideally the difficulty to obtain an item needed for quests or pvp would be set by the gm team of a game, not by the free market economy of the game. The free market can alter the difficulty and if it's through the aforementionned ways, it's my opinion that the limit gets pushed too far. I think we're free to assume that if there were no out of game transactions, the farming phenomenon would be far less important and thus the difficulty of participating in an economy for a casual player would diminue.
I'm very much against the principle of gold trading because I consider it cheating the "competition". Before I go on I would like to point out that someone convinced me that mmos are not games but that they are toys. I'm certain that most people who buy gold don't view it as a "game" or a "toy" even, they view it as a competition without rules, because there are no punishments with sufficient impact for getting caught.
I came back to this topic because last night I was told again that we should just deal with the fact that there is trading going on that makes it unfair if you're looking at an mmo as a competition. I think we would be far better off if those buying realized there's no way to "win" an mmorpg. It's much like renting a movie, you don't hit fast-forward because your neighbour already watched it. Once you realize that you can realize that it's a bit stupid to pay extra for enjoying the game less and those jealous of goldbuyers can just because they "lost" should go have a good laugh.
We shouldn't deal with it, the gaming companies should deal with it instead of considering how to take that profit into their own pockets. It all comes down to ethical business and customers deciding if they care about that when it doesn't affect them personally
. I'm not going to come back on the add running on the site, I think I backed my point up sufficiently in that regard.
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TOP MMORPG GAMES
You were asking for evidence I believe that goldfarming is bad mkay? Well here's a few starters for 10.
Scenario - You are in a raiding guild, going to farm elemental earth for C'thun attempts. This is of course based on a true story. All of the farmable areas are absolutely covered in bots, as they are well aware that guilds at this stage of play require this particular item. They can monopolise and corner the market (this is basic economics, if you are in control of the entire supply, then you can pretty much dictate the price that the demand must pay for it), forcing prices up beyond reasonable levels. This in turn encourages the purchase of gold, because raiders (and raiding is the only worthwhile thing in WoW at this point in time, always has been, it's the thing Blizzard really did right imho) do not have the time to go and farm the cash in order to purchase said items from the auction house. If I were to go via gold/hour, it is significantly cheaper for me to buy gold to purchase said items than it is to farm it myself. Time is money friend and all that, and time is a precious commodity in the case of most.
You may ask me 'Well if the bots did not exist then players would do the same thing'. Possibly, however players fatigue, players get bored, players can't do that 24/7 no matter how insane they may be and it's also a matter of who the farming benefits. Does it benefit players who pay their subscriptions to acquire ingame items for ingame gain (the mystical fourth wall perhaps?) or does it benefit large companies, at the expense of player enjoyment, for worldly gain? Which is better I ask you?
And that's not even covering the sheer annoyance of it all. The constant spam and junk mail, the annoying thought that even in this so-called virtual sanctuary, someone is still going to try and take your money off your hands. Advertising bombards us everywhere these days, it would be nice to actually have a place where someone isn't trying to con me out of my wages.
Let's also talk about the idea of a level playing field. You I believe said at one point that there is no such thing and that there will always be rich and poor etc. Sure, true, but there can be a level-playing field to the degree of your wallet not giving an advantage in game. Sure, time spent, to a tiny extent skill and of course luck are factors which 'unbalance' the field but I'd take that any day of the week over being owned in the face by someone who has spent X number of dollars on this amazing gear which makes him, in this game requiring little skill what-so-ever, into an unrivalled killing machine. Thankfully this will only get you so far in WoW, though I have seen players in Full Tier2.5 who have never even run MC before. The reason is quite simple, guilds are getting to the stage of being able to sell this gear to players. A guild on my server charged 5000g per set. Please do not tell me that someone would have the time to farm this amount of money and yet not to get involved in a raiding guild and actually have some fun. That money was bought, pure and simple. That's one more guy who has gear which he shouldn't. What he then does to other players because of owning this gear and thus being far more powerful than he should be has a negative effect on them to varying degrees. This would not have happened were that gold not available for purchase.
Those are just a few examples of it. I'm sure I could sit down and write a paper on the subject but I'd rather just make fun of it in my movies and spend my time doing something worthwhile for the community. As regards to paying the bills for a large website, been there, done that, got the t-shirt, without the commercial backing that this site has managed to gain, and yet we're still there and succeeding where a million and one other internet radio stations have fallen flat on their arses. If you require gold-selling ads to maintain your business then I would take a long hard look at the dynamics of it, since something is glaringly wrong if a site like this cannot attract the neccessary corporate backing to pay the bills and make some money on the side as a business.
TB.