Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
How much are you willing to pay?
We've all heard the old saying: You get what you pay for. If you want high quality goods your gonna have to pay for them. MMOGs are no different. I don't know how many times I've heard people, on this site and others, say things like: "Why aren't there any good games out"? or "This or that game would be better if they would have spent more time developing it". I've heard it all and, for the most part, I agree with the myriad complaints. MMOGs are not nearly as good as they could be. Indeed, they could be at least 5x better, overall, than what they are now. But in order to have much better MMOGs....
Development teams will need to be at least 5x bigger (mostly artists and designers).
Development budgets will have to be at least 5x bigger.
Development calendars should be 40-50% longer.
This, of course, will mean that monthly subscription fees must be 5x more. Personally, I'd be more than willing to pay $50-$60 a month for a really good MMOG and I know that some of you feel the same. So...
Comments
No longer visiting MMORPG.com.
---------------------------------------------
Don't click here...no2
None of those. I'd pay a maximum of 20 US dollars a month. No more. I don't want to pay around £40 a month just for a game. Even if it was amazing. No.
---------------------------------------
No Userbar here, sorry to disappoint.
20$ is the max I would pay, and I wouldn't pay a damn thing at all if that game didn't break mold in the PvP areas.
Im not anti social, im just pro solitude!
50$ a month ... mean you get a whole new game each month, Think about it .. it's really costly. At 50$ a month, you could buy any single game every month. And try to do it in a month.
Soo, by paying 50$ a month for a mmorpg, it's would mean, they are giving us a new expansion each month with a LOT of NICE stuff, not crappy expansion. Real one.
The problem in mmorpg, are not the money, every company got a lot of money, it doesn't cost that much to have those mmorpg (make them, yes). Soo, I think the real problem, is the money hungry people behind them who don't care about us and only care about how much richer they will get every month, If you raise this to 50$ a month, you won't get any better mmorpg, just some people who will get richer faster and less people playing (to costly)
$15 is currently even an over kill.
I recall when it was 9,95 not so long ago(2001 or so) .
2 developers of 2 seperate games(one was SB forgot other think it was AC) said 50k clients will turn a profit for a mmorpg unless it had incredibly high cost to make.And that was back when it cost 12.95.
While if i find a mmorpg i really love i pay even $30 for it fact remains they make a good profit as it is as far is its reasobaly successful.If they have say only 20k customers charging those 20k say $30 to make up will probably just drive those away anyhow.
Its $15 a month now its more then fair!
There is no guarantee that if you paid 100 dollars a month the game would be any good. First the MMORPG producers need to demonstrate that can master the current level of game design before they go asking for more money a month. As it stands there are only a small small handful that can claim they are really any good. (on top of it, one of the games that has made a vast breakthrough has no monthly fee)
Personally I think 15 is to much for most of the "stuff" thats out there. Most I would throw into the 10 dollars and under in value. Thats just me though.
When the industry as a whole can constintently put out quality games at the current level no price increase is warrented.
Look at the list on the left side of this page and really think about the quality of some of these games.
The MMOGs that we have today are nothing compared to what they will be like in near future. There will still be the little cheapies, the $10-$20 ones, but the really cool ones are gonna cost.
IMO MMOGs are far more profound and meaningful than any other type of entertainment and deserve to be at the top of the gaming food chain.
The main reason why we don't have really good MMOGs is NOT because developers don't want to make them, but because gamers don't want to pay for them! I'll be perfectly honest with ya--I think that poor people and cheapskates have held this industry back for far too long! If you can't, or refuse to, pay for a high quality MMOG then you'll just have to play the cheapies. Those of us who can afford to play the latest state-of-the-art MMOG will happily do so.
Fortunately the PS3 will be out in the fall and while there might not be any MMOGs available at the start, there will be shortly thereafter. The average game will cost $70. plus whatever Sony's online service cost is plus you'll have to have at least cable broadband internet service, but OMFG will they be awesome!
I predict that the MMOGs for PS3 will decimate PC MMOGs for a long time to come. In fact, the PS3 is 10x more powerful than the best PC rig out there! Now, wouldn't it be a shame to play something as junky and inferior as WoW or EVE on such a powerful machine?
60$ a month is roughly 2$ a day. I beg your pardon, what are 2$ a day?- What does a cup of coffee cost or a glass of beer?- And how long does this cup of coffee or glass of beer entertain you?- And how long would a very very very good game entertain you?-
You see the difference?- Ok, then you should see also, that those 2$ are a very good investment compared to what you could do elsewhere with it.
Ragosch
Nope, they're already too expensive. Once an MMO is written they're very inexpensive to maintain and do bug fixing on. Anyone willing to pay more than that for a game is just crazy. EQ2, WOW and numerous other titles are in *pure profit* mode at this point. Why would you pay them MORE?
I don't buy that the good MMO's could be 5x better.
EVE is awesome as is, granted it's not my thing but I don't see it getting 5x better, no matter how much money you throw at it.
DAOC is also awesome. Sure there are some small improvements that could still be made but, again, it aint getting 5x better.
Anything more than $15 a month for ONE title is a complete waste of money.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
$60 a month is half a car payment on a less expensive car.
$60 a month will buy you a brand new computer
$60 a month will, over the course of 18 years, put your child through 1 or 2 years of college.
$60 a month will pay for a quiet evening out with my wife to an affordable dinner and a movie.
$60 a month will pay my car insurance
$60 a month will pay for lawn care for my house
Should I go on with more things I can think of that are more important to me to spend $60 a month on than a damn game?
Reminder:
$60 a month is: $720 a year.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Like I said...if you can't afford the best then you'll just have to play the cheapies. I want to have the best
and will happily pay for the best. $60 a month ain't diddly squat to me.
Are you offering to wire-transfer that amount to everyone on this thread then?
Do you really think paying 4 times what most already pay for will make games magically better? As if suddenly the developers, artists, network connections etc are transformed overnight. I would only pay slighlty more, like $20 (well £ equivalent) IF I knew exactly what else I'd be getting for that amount. I'd also be quite happy to pay more for a boxed version if there were no monthly fees at all. Think how much extra beer $60 a month gets you!
Hm, lets see - a team of 30 artists, programmers and the support team needed to manage the office they are working in cost about 250,000$ a month. Lets say they are working for about 4 years on a good game, then we have costs of about 12 million $ plain - but unfortunately there is also interest (I calculate with 1% a month) which converts this 12 million $ into 15.3 million $.
There was no advertising for the game yet, no marketing, no production, just the development of the game and it needs some more time and money to spend to make this game earn the money which is already invested. 15.3 million $ cost 153,000$ each month in interest, not counting the marketing team and marketing costs which add another 6-digit numbers to it. Not to forget the cost for running the game and the support team. Those people need to work at a place which is basically not their home, so you need to pay for offices and such.
That is what people often forget when they say "there are not much costs once the game is released" - there are costs which a non-economist forgets about or even doesnt know about.
Ragosch
I currently think $15 a month is really pushing it. There is no way I'd pay more then that. Especially since I don't play every day.
If a game was to cost more a month, up to $60 a month I had damn well better be smiling the entire time I play, able to get on everyday and have fun 24/7. By that I mean leveling every single time I log on. Game events every hour on the hour or maybe every 2 to 3 hours. I had better be able to solo any damn time I want and get rewards worthy of my time and money. No rusty sword drops or bettle shells. I had better be getting plenty of money, a decent economy to spend it in, and be able ot afford everything I need at my level at any given time and not have to worry about how I'm going to get more money. Access to all spells, armor, and weapons would need to be there. I would and should not have to worry about finding someone to craft something or worry about any goddamn death results. I should be able to hire npcs to party with me if I so choose.
There had better be a LOT, and I do mean a LOT of things, on a daily and hourly basis that would have to be included in a game 24/7 to justifiy a $60 or anything over $20 monthly fee of a game. The second you feel frustration, get upset you aren't progressing fast enough, the second you have to wait for a group or die trying to get to a location or find group and misconned mobs mixed in with solo creatures, etc it no longer becomes justified.
It comes down to the type of game. I'll nenver touch Dungeons and Dragons Online, even though I really enjoy the Eberron setting (currently reading the novels set in it) but for how the game is designed, almost like Guild Wars, I won't touch it. There is no way in hell it justifies it's $15 a month game price, especailly being so group focused. Just the same way SOE can not justify it's monthly fee for Star Wars Galaxies with how screwed up that game is now after the NGE. I can bet you a lot of people might still be there if SOE had just owned up to how they fucked up the gameand lowered the monthly fee to say $7 a month to show good faith that they were trying to make things better.
Did you even read my op? I clearly stated...
Development teams will need to be at least 5x bigger (mostly artists and designers).
Development budgets will have to be at least 5x bigger.
Development calendars should be 40-50% longer.
This, of course, will mean that monthly subscription fees must be 5x more.
Is this too tough for you to understand? I never said a word about these types of games suddenly appearing over night, but somehow "magically" my words got twisted in your "brain".
So since your one of the poor/cheapskates you'll just have to play the cheap MMOGs...thank god.
I absolutely agree 2$ a day is the average wage of 2 families.
Lesson no.1 learn the value of money.
No one ever got rich by throwing their money about or paying 4 times over the odds. This is the fast track to debt and insolvency. You should be looking to get more for less in every transaction. This is the route to becoming a millionaire.
Lesson no.2 Capitalism.
if the game makes a bigger profit the price won't drop.
Example. WOW is clearly the most expensively developed MMO to date with the highest running costs, and clearly the biggest earner, they net hundreds of millions a month but the price is still $15.
Despite having a far higher costs than their rivals, they could cut their prices and still be making a massive profit, but they won't.
The shelf price and the subscription price bears absolutely no relation to the development cost or even running costs of the game. This isn't communism, it's capitalism. The aim is to make the biggest profit possible not to provide value for money.
The game is sold for the maximum price the market will stand. If it won't sell at that price, the price comes down.
Increasing the development cost by 5x (Example Blizzard compared to the makers of Matrix online) by no means increases the end price by 5x. they both sold for the same price and the subscriptions cost the same.
Lesson no.3 mass marketing
A greater profit can often be realised by lowering the cost so that you reach a wider audience and sell more units worldwide.
1 million x $5 profit > 10,000 x $40 profit.
In this way a company may develop a more expensive product and charge less to the end user.
There is absolutely no demand for a £40 a month game, why bother making one?
A really really good MMO will basically replace my television time.
So having said that I would be willing to pay as much for an MMO as I would for satellite TV plus maybe 20% since it is such a huge effort to bring more content in a game.
But it would have to be really damn good.
Now we just need to discuss what really really damned good is
Ragosch
@Effect: Imagine having an advanced AI that is capable of building millions of different missions specifically for you, your prefered play style and your character's abilities! Missions that come complete with secret areas, furniture that you can actually interact with, traps and alarms, etc., and loot that is specifically geared toward you!
How about having an AI that lets you have a meaningful conversation with NPCs/pets/mobs...NO TYPING, just talking! You could hire NPCs to do just about anything; party with you, go on missions with you, etc..
How about a MMOG that has 500 different skills to choose from! Talk about character customization!
How about a MMOG that has the most stunning beautiful realtime raytraced graphics that you've ever seen.
The point is is that only a very large development team, with a very big budget, could ever pull something like that off. Heck, even if they used a really good third party 3D engine and AI, they would still have their hands full...after all, they're building an entire world!
All of which, with a user base of 50,000 or more, will be recouped within 1 year of release due to recurring fees. Once a game reaches the 1.5 year mark with 50k users or more it has paid for its production costs. EQ2 cost about 25 million to make. In the first SIX months it had already recouped all of that and was into profit.
Furthermore paying $60 a month isn't going to increase the quality of a game. There is a point of no return on investment when you're dealing with the production cycle of a game. You can't speed it up too much because then you'll miss the bugs, which are inevitable.
Case in point: SWG had 70 developers working on it constantly and it was, arguably, the most bug plagued game I have ever played. Granted it offered a style of gameplay that I enjoyed enough to look over most of those issues but the problem with SWG wasn't how many people they could afford to stick on the dev team. The problem was trying to push changes out so fast that they were rarely properly debugged first.
Honestly I don't see why people seem to think you can just throw MONEY at the MMO industry to make it better. They're already making more profit than any other video game on the market once they pay off their production costs. At $15 a month they are effectively charging you the full price of a brand new video game every 3 months. Much SHORTER than the development cycle for a single player video game (which typically takes 6 months to a year to produce). So they're actually raking in money hand over fist after your first month.
Networking fees and developer salaries once the game has been released come in to the toon of about 15-20 mil a year on a game like SWG. That's with a staff of 70 developers (we crunched the numbers ad-nausium on the SWG forums). To pay those salaries the game only needs 50,000 players. Once you're over 50k players a game is making SILLY money. If they WANTED to make the game better and wanted to throw more money into development they certainly could, without raising monthly fees by a factor of 2 or 3, much less 4.
You guys that claim to understand the costs involved just don't have a damn clue. I've worked in the industry. I know how much profit these MMO companies are making and the fact that you want to throw more money at them is just mind boggling. The profit margin on a MMO after it's first year is just crazy. If they really wanted to improve the quality they could. EVE and DAOC are living breathing examples of MMO's run by companies that really want to improve their games. Most other MMO's are more profitable than BOTH of them yet their quality control is worse (much) and their content has less depth and attention to detail.
Why is that? Neither EVE nor DAOC charge any more than the competition. Neither of them has a larger development team than the competition.
You go ahead and believe that paying 4x as much for a product will somehow magically make it better. Me? I'll stick to reality.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
If the industry, as a whole, raises the monthly fee to $40, $60, or even $100 a month, people will pay it. It happened with cable and it happens with Satellite TV. The fact that it's priced so high will attract the elitist assholes that think they can buy status with the things they own or pour money into. Not to mention that people who are already hooked on this type of game would sell their first born to keep playing.
As an example, look at the PSP. Loads of dumb rich college kids spent $250 on a HAND HELD CONSOLE and one year later it's nothing more than a cheap iPod. There are no really outstanding games for the PSP, it's battery life is a joke, and you have to wait through load times that defeat the whole purpose of it being portable in the first place!!
As for the production costs, there's been a lot of concern in the industry both by investors and developers. Many developers are claiming that'll it'll be too expensive to produce games for the XBox 360 and the PS3. They know this because of the insane overhead from making PC titles. On top of that, dev teams are seeing some massive turnovers due to burnout. These people work 12 hour days, 7 days a week for almost 2 years straight. This is not good for the gaming industry as a whole. So there's a push to make smaller games, in less time, with less money. For all intents and purposes, game development has hit a glass ceiling and we're all scrambling to find a solution before the next big industry crash. It happened in the 80's and many of us fear that it'll happen again.
As mentioned before in this thread, you can't just throw money at a problem. Solid games can be made with very small budgets as well. Catan Online, Yawaraka Atama Juku., and Rocket Bowl are all extremely fun games that were made on a thumbnail budget with teams of 10 or less. The trick for big development houses, is to find a way to make their games that are instantly engaging and fun, while keepig the production costs down. I can't really think of any MMO that I would describe as "instantly engaging" and that's with insanely high production costs and fees.
Did you even read my op? I clearly stated...
Development teams will need to be at least 5x bigger (mostly artists and designers).
Development budgets will have to be at least 5x bigger.
Development calendars should be 40-50% longer.
This, of course, will mean that monthly subscription fees must be 5x more.
Is this too tough for you to understand? I never said a word about these types of games suddenly appearing over night, but somehow "magically" my words got twisted in your "brain".
So since your one of the poor/cheapskates you'll just have to play the cheap MMOGs...thank god.
Problem with your ePeen much?
"Did you even read my op?" Yes I did Mr poopyhead
"This, of course, will mean that monthly subscription fees must be 5x more."
Why does it?
1. Game gets developed.
2. Game gets released
3. Joe bloggs buys game and pays a monthly fee. Monthly fee comes a-f-t-e-r the game gets developed, is that too tough for you to understand?
Somehow your logic is that development costs, pumping in 5 times as much into a game makes it somehow 5 times better and dictates that it should have a subsequently high monthly fee, doesn't take into account the c-o-m-p-e-t-i-t-i-o-n or what the market will tolerate.
Clearly you didn't read my post! I never said a word about these types of games suddenly appearing over night either, merely that having more money doesn't automatically equate to a higher quality game. For someone who claims to be rich, you sure are stupid (mind you Bill Gates was a college dropout, so maybe there is a correlation there). Maybe you should spend that $60 on basic literacy or business lessons instead?