I didnt say that 60$ are justified by this costs. I just wanted to point out that these development costs produce permanent calculatoric or real costs (interest) until they are not returned in full. That is something people forget about totally - that financial services are not free but very expensive.
If I pay 60$ a month for an mmo I want employees who are in the game to make the world more alive. Paid Roleplayers basically.
Also I want a team of artists who do nothing but create all kinds of item models, special enemies and characters and improvements to the world. Some of which are very limited in number as to make them special, creating a feel of uniqueness. So you could be one of very few having a special item, compared to the "do a run in this and that instance, kill boss xy and the dagger of ultimate backstabbing drops with a 5% chance from him".
So basically the only reason I would pay a horrible amount of money for an mmo is that it gives me what other games can not. A REALLY living evolving world in which the company tailors things to the players, like a dungeon master in a pen and paper rpg. Constant adding and adjusting of missions that are only there until they have been done. All this would of course influence the world for real and therefore make it way more immersive than any mmo even dreams of being today.
If a company were about to make such a game, I might think about paying a high fee for that.
Since you seem to enjoy it, calculate the monthly needed costs for that. I'd be very interested in that. Look up what the average artist and programmers earn. Calculate how much you need of each position to keep the world running. You should probably assume a certain number of customers, as that dictates how many people you need, since the content needed varies with the amount of subscribers you have. Mirroring the world onto several servers won't work in that system either, since it would evolve differently on each one and just make it harder to maintain in the end.
I very much look forward to come up with the fee for that business model. Even if the fee turns out to be reasonable, I'm not sure that business model would be picked up by any publisher/developer due to higher risks involved. So as much as I would love to see a game like this, it won't happen anytime soon and especially not come from any of the big companies. As some other posters in this thread already noted, more money is made by maximizing profit, not having more turnover.
The point which is totally wrong is the troll/kiddy/whatnots being unable to play when the monthly fee increases. A Family Dad who might be the best and coolest person in the world will rather not spend 60$ on an mmo for himself, while the spoiled single kid from his neighbour will get it installed on his brand new powerhorse pc. The only way you could improve the quality of people playing a game would be handpicking them. Not by means of money, but by watching their behaviour. That could mean anyone getting kicked out though, including the people with the big pockets. (Not that this would be good business tactics for most of the time, unless you want to loose 80% or more of your customers overnight).
Maybe, maybe not. I think it would work in the same way as an exclusive club works. You let only those people in which are known best or friends of people who are known best. Using this philosophy you do not need to kick out many, but you should do it if needed to keep the exclusive touch and the best enterainment factor for those valueable customers who do not bother about paying a bit more.
There is really no luxury MMO yet, and maybe it might not work, who knows. For many people it is also insane to buy a car which costs more than 100,000$ - nevertheless many of them are sold all the time and the demand for those is steadily rising, due to the simple fact that people, who do not have much time enjoy the best they can get to make the best out of their time. This could happen also to the gaming industry if games would offer better gameplay and would be catered to casual players, which play just a few hours a month but for a long time.
How much are you willing to offer? My hobby budget won't increase suddenly, if I put more in MMOs, I put less elsewhere. Convincing me that I should not buy Heroes of Might and Magic V or Galactic Civilisation II is $4 a month each. Now, I doesn't see how a MMO would manage to convince me of that, but there are also other games which I buy. MMOs are not on the TOP of my gaming atm, they are slightly above the average, nothing more. Even CoH would never have manage to convince me to not buy Galactic Civilisation II for example...in face, I would buy GalCiv II before any MMO atm, since it is very cheap for all the fun it bring. The more you charge, the more FUN you provide. Raiding is not fun, PvP is not fun and tradeskills are not fun either. Sooo...I doesn't feel I would play if they would charge more than now, but who know? If the game appeal enough...but we ain't talking of the currently released MMOs for sure.
I doesn't currently subscribe to any MMO as I feel none offer enough for what they charge. hehe, $15 is currently worth more than a subscribtion to ANY existing MMO, I could pay more than that, but it would have to be worth it.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
The biggest complaint that I hear about MMOGs today is that after a few months worth of play there's nothing to do...lack of content, especially after max level. This is a huge problem for developers today and one that will likely plague low end MMOGs for a long time to come.
High end MMOGs will have very sophisticated Mission Creation AI that will eliminate the problem of lack of content. Mission Creation AI will be able to build hundreds of thousands of unique missions and quests specifically designed to provide maximum enjoyment for the player. These missions would be just like playing through a level or two of a really good single player game; they would come complete with secret passages/areas; interactive furniture/appliances; traps, alarms and locks to overcome, etc.. Of course the loot in these missions and quests would be meaningful and geared toward the player character.
High end MMOGs will also have very advanced NPC/pet/mob AI. NPCs/pets/mobs will be able to actually talk and communicate with the player characters in a meaningful way that gives the player far more information than is available through the pathetic NPC/pet/mob "ai" that we have today. NPC/pet/mob AI will be able to convey emotional content and give subtle clues as to the intent of the NPC.
High end MMOGs will have a development team big enough and talented enough to provide a steady stream of high quality content. Custom content would also be available...for an additional charge of course.
Sophisticated Mission Creation AI and advanced NPC/pet/mob AI will require hundreds of millions of $ and millions of manhours to research and develop to the level that I have discribed.
You will never hear anyone complain about lack of high quality content in a high end MMOG.
MMOs are already too expensive at $15 a month. A brand new game goes for somewhere between $40 and $50. By the current model, we should be getting an entire game's worth of content every 3 months. Who here can name an MMO that does that?
We, the game playing consumers, are already ponying up plenty of cash. Let's see the developers hold up their end before we start throwing money at them. I guess it's fun to talk about "advanced AI" and "high end" games, but in reality most developers don't even manage an entire game's worth of content for launch. I can't imagine how increasing prices could change this.
Game developers might have you believe that a quality game would cost more money to produce and maintain, but that is simply not the case.
Being innovative and holding true to your original vision so as not to alienate your client base is what makes a game successful and profitable. EvE is a perfect example of a game which caters to a niche, not my type of game, but is loyal to their vision and profitable with a subscription base of 100k users.
Clearly companies like SOE who should be abe to make quality games because of their expertise and manpower, are not. Smedley is way overpayed for the results he is generating. Inflated salaries are the first place to cut back in order to allocate more funding to hiring bright new talent.
My personal limit per month would be about $20 for a MMOG subscription. As stated before, for $30-$50 a month you can buy a new single box game every month which would easily entertain you with a fresh new experience during that period.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
I should pay +60$ a month for a really good game that fit all my wishes, but i dont think the quality is related with the price.
60$ price is a big problem to have lot of pleople playing the game, and a highly populated world is a key aspect of what i consider as a nice mmorpg. so, probably having to pay 60$+ it will never become the game i have been always looking for, so, i will not pay it.
greyface is spot on the mark there!!! we already over pay hugely...1 million people buy wow for 30 quid each thats an initial of 30 million quid...ahhh but thats nothing!!!! 1 million people paying 10 quid a month for 12 months now thats something...120 million quid a year!!! this is stupid money...this is like wow fuck me these idoits will pay anything to run around with a sword of nucleargodbang +7.....ive said it before and ill say it again the more customers the lower the subscription!! since its launch in europe in beggining of 2005 they have hit 1 million customers in europe alone thats a god damn lot of revenue being generated, and what do we see for our money? absolutely nothing, not even a lowering of subscription costs , we get an expansion pack this year in which people can do more of the same. value for money i dont think so.....i use blizzrd as an example becuase they r right now the biggest exploiters of this
Originally posted by gLitterbug If I pay 60$ a month for an mmo I want employees who are in the game to make the world more alive. Paid Roleplayers basically.Also I want a team of artists who do nothing but create all kinds of item models, special enemies and characters and improvements to the world. Some of which are very limited in number as to make them special, creating a feel of uniqueness. So you could be one of very few having a special item, compared to the "do a run in this and that instance, kill boss xy and the dagger of ultimate backstabbing drops with a 5% chance from him".So basically the only reason I would pay a horrible amount of money for an mmo is that it gives me what other games can not. A REALLY living evolving world in which the company tailors things to the players, like a dungeon master in a pen and paper rpg. Constant adding and adjusting of missions that are only there until they have been done. All this would of course influence the world for real and therefore make it way more immersive than any mmo even dreams of being today.If a company were about to make such a game, I might think about paying a high fee for that.Since you seem to enjoy it, calculate the monthly needed costs for that. I'd be very interested in that. Look up what the average artist and programmers earn. Calculate how much you need of each position to keep the world running. You should probably assume a certain number of customers, as that dictates how many people you need, since the content needed varies with the amount of subscribers you have. Mirroring the world onto several servers won't work in that system either, since it would evolve differently on each one and just make it harder to maintain in the end.I very much look forward to come up with the fee for that business model. Even if the fee turns out to be reasonable, I'm not sure that business model would be picked up by any publisher/developer due to higher risks involved. So as much as I would love to see a game like this, it won't happen anytime soon and especially not come from any of the big companies. As some other posters in this thread already noted, more money is made by maximizing profit, not having more turnover.The point which is totally wrong is the troll/kiddy/whatnots being unable to play when the monthly fee increases. A Family Dad who might be the best and coolest person in the world will rather not spend 60$ on an mmo for himself, while the spoiled single kid from his neighbour will get it installed on his brand new powerhorse pc. The only way you could improve the quality of people playing a game would be handpicking them. Not by means of money, but by watching their behaviour. That could mean anyone getting kicked out though, including the people with the big pockets. (Not that this would be good business tactics for most of the time, unless you want to loose 80% or more of your customers overnight).
I seems like you've thought about this subject in the past gLitterbug.
I'm prayin' that some small-medium size developer will have the courage and be inspired to create a True Masterpiece MMOG. Naturally a small developer would have to add quite a lot of talent to his/her team...but it's the vision of creating a True Masterpiece MMOG that counts. If such a team were to start working today they could have the first beta test sometime in 2010 (fingers crossed).
A higher monthly fee will keep out most of the little kiddies; the trolls/jack@$$es, although discouraged by higher monthly fees, can be dealt with in other ways.
Actually, if MMO's want to compete with games like Guild Wars, they shouldn't make you pay for anything, unless they really are the best out there. Ad if it was the best MMO ever, I would only pay around $10 a month, tops, otherwise, it's just robbery...
Originally posted by Simmage Actually, if MMO's want to compete with games like Guild Wars, they shouldn't make you pay for anything, unless they really are the best out there. Ad if it was the best MMO ever, I would only pay around $10 a month, tops, otherwise, it's just robbery...
Your an excellent example of the poor/cheapskate I mentioned earlier. If "gamers" like you had your way developers would never make any money and the rest of us would be stuck with no MMOGs at all. That would suit you just fine wouldn't it?
It's not my fault that you're unable to afford the better things in life, but still you would love to deny me the pleasure of playing a really good video game...how fucked up is that?
Please promise me that you'll never ever play a high end MMOG...ok?
For me, I'd pay between $15 and $5, though maybe less if I can get away with it. I see a lot of games out there know that try to charge $10 per month and I don't see any point. I mean... Mankind, or Shattered Galaxies (both MMORTS games) trying to charge $10 per month for such an old and outdated game? Especially when the gameplay isn't anything special. I'd probably be more willing to play a lot of existing MMOs if they were only $10 per month. Like maybe Eve, for example. I'm not playing it now because there isn't enough to do in the game, short of having to fly into 0.0 and beat everyone up (yeah, right) and set up a player owned based to do some of the "advanced" content.
[quote]Originally posted by poopypants Your an excellent example of the poor/cheapskate I mentioned earlier. If "gamers" like you had your way developers would never make any money and the rest of us would be stuck with no MMOGs at all. That would suit you just fine wouldn't it?[/b][/quote]
A lot of MMO players are (relatively) poor people that play because it's cheap entertainment, at least compared to going to the movies twice a month or paying for cable. But anyway, Guild Wars is a good example of a game that can provide a MMO-like experience without the monthly costs. If other companies can't make a game to compete with the lack of a monthly fee, then they're operating on an ineffecient model and need to change or fall like many other companies before them that crumble when competition appears.
Originally posted by gLitterbug If I pay 60$ a month for an mmo I want employees who are in the game to make the world more alive. Paid Roleplayers basically.Also I want a team of artists who do nothing but create all kinds of item models, special enemies and characters and improvements to the world. Some of which are very limited in number as to make them special, creating a feel of uniqueness. So you could be one of very few having a special item, compared to the "do a run in this and that instance, kill boss xy and the dagger of ultimate backstabbing drops with a 5% chance from him".So basically the only reason I would pay a horrible amount of money for an mmo is that it gives me what other games can not. A REALLY living evolving world in which the company tailors things to the players, like a dungeon master in a pen and paper rpg. Constant adding and adjusting of missions that are only there until they have been done. All this would of course influence the world for real and therefore make it way more immersive than any mmo even dreams of being today.
The funny thing is that players would do exactly that if you gave them the opportunities. Players don't role play because it doesn't boost their stats. Even for the players that still want to RP, nothing they do will affect the "story" of the game, so most don't try very hard. Players don't get any say in item content. If they could design stuff, using either a mix-match of an bunch of pre-created different hilt-pommel-crossbrace-blade-effects for swords or creating their own entirely, you'd see more unique items. If there were dynamic elements with means for players to interact then the world might be evolving, but most of them are designed to be static not for lack of manpower, but because they don't allow the players to change the world so that it is dynamic.
Gaming is quickly becoming a popular hobby for couples and families. By trying to price out the "kiddies" , you will also price out couples and families who would need more than one account. That would be a shame. I really doubt that it would work, anyway. I bet you'd see little to no difference in the amount of silliness that goes on MMOs. They're like little worlds and probably have the same percentage of people engaging in inappropriate behaviour as the real world does... well, maybe just a wee bit more. Most of the uncouth people I've met online are adults, anyway. Charging $30 - $60 is likely to just keep the responsible, family oriented adults from subscribing... you know, the one's you would really prefer playing with. With them gone, you'll just notice the idiots more.
Originally posted by poopypants So what do you guys think a $30-60 a month MMOG should offer in terms of features? Be specific if you can.
Okay, for sake of argument, here's what it would take to get me to pay $60 a month for an MMO: free & unlimited /pizza.... but only if there's some kind of hot wings on the menu. I prefer bonless, but I'd settle for regular hot wings. And it needs to come with some pre-packaged moist towelettes, because I do not want to get buffalo sauce on my keyboard. /Beer might push my max subscription fee up to maybe $65 a month, provided they had a robust selection of microbrews and could get it to my house while it was still cold.
Originally posted by Simmage Actually, if MMO's want to compete with games like Guild Wars, they shouldn't make you pay for anything, unless they really are the best out there. Ad if it was the best MMO ever, I would only pay around $10 a month, tops, otherwise, it's just robbery...
Your an excellent example of the poor/cheapskate I mentioned earlier. If "gamers" like you had your way developers would never make any money and the rest of us would be stuck with no MMOGs at all. That would suit you just fine wouldn't it?
It's not my fault that you're unable to afford the better things in life, but still you would love to deny me the pleasure of playing a really good video game...how fucked up is that?
Please promise me that you'll never ever play a high end MMOG...ok?
Your statement is elitist and your argument is weak at best. The individual never said he couldn't affort the fee, he said the value did not exist to justify a fee greater then $10 a month. No one is "denying" you anything, you would deny many gamers from games by pricing them so high it would collapse the genre.
All you are advocating is increasing fees for no better reason then the hope of better content. Something the companies already provide. Thus far you have been unable to give any sort of real reason to increase monthly fees at all.
Hero's Journey is already moving to provide the type of game service you described in an earily post. I believe the fees will NOT be $60 a month.
Originally posted by Signe Gaming is quickly becoming a popular hobby for couples and families. By trying to price out the "kiddies" , you will also price out couples and families who would need more than one account. That would be a shame. I really doubt that it would work, anyway. I bet you'd see little to no difference in the amount of silliness that goes on MMOs. They're like little worlds and probably have the same percentage of people engaging in inappropriate behaviour as the real world does... well, maybe just a wee bit more. Most of the uncouth people I've met online are adults, anyway. Charging $30 - $60 is likely to just keep the responsible, family oriented adults from subscribing... you know, the one's you would really prefer playing with. With them gone, you'll just notice the idiots more.
You're right Signe, thank the gods, MMOGs are becoming more and more popular with a much broader range of people. I'm so grateful for what WoW has done for MMOGaming; it has done a great service to MMOGamers by bringing millions of new gamers into the fold (I'm not diggin' the whole lesbian-gay-whatever thing that's been going on, but...). My girlfriend and I used to love playing online together but, unfortunately, MMOGs have lost their luster...now all we see is junk. The last MMOG we played was EVE (for less than a month) and we quit that about 14 months ago; We've been boycotting the genre ever since. But there's a glimmer of hope...with the introduction of the PS3 we may well see the high end MMOGs that I've been talking about (fingers crossed).
You're wrong about pricing couples and families out. It costs My girl and me more than $70 to see a couple of movies a month! Talk about a total ripoff! Even at the full $60 a pop MMOGs are a heck of a bargain! And I'm sure there would be attractive discounts for couples and families, making MMOGs an entertainment value of unparalleled proportions!
Everything in RL is expensive as hell. Seems everytime i go outside the door i end up eating ramen for a month. Having an mmorpg to play will save me allot of money.
A single player title that would keep my attention for a few days at most is allready $60. An mmorpg means hours of entertainment every single day.
Would the games get any better? Nah. Pumping that amount of money into making a "premium mmorpg" would just press the developers to try and please every single demographic group, and that's a sure recipe for mediocrity.
It might be beneficial for niche games however. If someone wants to spend WoW's budget on making a lumberjack simulator they could.
Originally posted by baff You can buy a Dell* which is much more powerful for the same price as a PS3. The Cell processor, is made by IBM, it, like it's predecssor the Xbox 360 chip, was deemed unsellable in the PC market. The sudden jump in processor power design made by AMD with it's x64 chips forced all the rival chip makers to abandon a generation of their chip research. the factories were all built and ready to produce, but the market had disappeared. IBM's latest and most advanced chip was unable to compete with even the cheapest Celeron and Sempron AMD and Intel had to offer. With an eye for a bargain, Microsoft bought IBM's defunct stock, and so did Sony. You do understand that when Sony say the Cell chip is the greatest chip on earth, that they are trying to sell it you, right? (*) Dell is having financial problems currently they need to turn over their stock fast to recoup the money. If you are looking for a bargain now is the time.
Originally posted by Simmage Actually, if MMO's want to compete with games like Guild Wars, they shouldn't make you pay for anything, unless they really are the best out there. Ad if it was the best MMO ever, I would only pay around $10 a month, tops, otherwise, it's just robbery...
Your an excellent example of the poor/cheapskate I mentioned earlier. If "gamers" like you had your way developers would never make any money and the rest of us would be stuck with no MMOGs at all. That would suit you just fine wouldn't it?
It's not my fault that you're unable to afford the better things in life, but still you would love to deny me the pleasure of playing a really good video game...how fucked up is that?
Please promise me that you'll never ever play a high end MMOG...ok?
Please tell us how much money you have and how much you earn, we are all dying to know whether or not we too can afford to be in your exclusive rich club.
Mylon - Yes, that is one of the things I would do when creating an mmo. Give the players more power. Basically EVE does something like that, I haven't played long enough, but EVE is like a complex space economy simulation. With most of the power in players hands. I just read another Interview which surprised me as to how much thought and work they put into that.
As poopypants said, I thought and think about stuff like that every day practically. Game development is still my dream, altough a bit farther in the future than I would like I'm affraid. The content problem could be at least eased with what Mylon said about the players. If you look at modders and the urge a lot of people have to create their own content, a developer should utilize that to improve his own game without much additional cost. How this could be done follows shortly.
What poopypants hints at with this post isn't even close to being dumb. The higher cost might not necessarily scare away trolls, but the type of game you create would probably. Being smaller and more focused and not appeal to a bunch as big as WoW's customers automatically gets you rid of a lot of the bad apples. So creating an mmo with a concept that is off the mass market, but can gather a large enough userbase who appreciates it and is ready to pay enough for it to keep things running would be the target. Assuming I had a company I would start off by creating a concept with more complex mechanisms and geared strongly toward a certain number of people. That might exclude me from getting millions of signups (at first), but as a small developer you wouldn't be able to handle an explosion in customers like that anyways. A thought that actually got confirmed today in the EVE interview I read. So tailoring the mmo to your targeted customer base, you can for example advertise without giving false statements in hope to lure in customers. (If you have a quality product that is, but that is what I assume in the first place.)
So if you calculated through the business plan and you have your game and the amount of subscribers needed to maintain it, then you can over time slowly expand. There will be no shortage of subscribers if you have a quality product that has the appeal of an exclusive club which everyone wants to get into. Now add to this what Mylon said about player created content. Gamers interested in real roleplaying will go to great lengths creating something to give others joy if you let them. In that vein you would need to design a system to help people like that and in some way reward them for it.
Continuing the thought of player created content, we can go as far as custom created 3d models of characters, houses, items etc. This area is a bit more tacky as it could break your game if not implementing some kind of quality control. So what would need to be done is hand out very strict guidelines for custom content and have submitted content run through some special employees hand who then puts it into the game if it adheres to the content specifications. As so often seen on the net, there are a lot of capable artists who create content for fun. Neverwinter Nights being a prime example. Even if you had strict guidelines there might be enough coming in to actually matter and the thought of being able to get your own stuff in the game would be one of the best advertising you could get as it would create quite the uproar itself wherever published. For whoever is not an artist but still wants his custom armor done I would have artists specifically assigned to that job, but of course that might mean the customer needs to pay for his armor with real life money. Looking at the urge people have to be special and what is going on with mmo money on ebay and the like, I wouldn't be affraid of a lack of customers using this service.
Now what I just wrote is only rough and in the order my thoughts pop out while hitting my keys, but I bet there is a lot of truth in it. I think someone mentioned the problem already, the bigger companies see no sense in making something like this. After all how would you persuade a marketing head at Sony, Blizzard or whatever big successfull company that you limit the amount of subscribers and therefore the profit you can make? Creating a company that earns just enough to keep on going and make a slight profit? Insane. Personally I would start preproduction tomorrow if someone would finance a business plan like this.
Comments
I didnt say that 60$ are justified by this costs. I just wanted to point out that these development costs produce permanent calculatoric or real costs (interest) until they are not returned in full. That is something people forget about totally - that financial services are not free but very expensive.
Ragosch
If I pay 60$ a month for an mmo I want employees who are in the game to make the world more alive. Paid Roleplayers basically.
Also I want a team of artists who do nothing but create all kinds of item models, special enemies and characters and improvements to the world. Some of which are very limited in number as to make them special, creating a feel of uniqueness. So you could be one of very few having a special item, compared to the "do a run in this and that instance, kill boss xy and the dagger of ultimate backstabbing drops with a 5% chance from him".
So basically the only reason I would pay a horrible amount of money for an mmo is that it gives me what other games can not. A REALLY living evolving world in which the company tailors things to the players, like a dungeon master in a pen and paper rpg. Constant adding and adjusting of missions that are only there until they have been done. All this would of course influence the world for real and therefore make it way more immersive than any mmo even dreams of being today.
If a company were about to make such a game, I might think about paying a high fee for that.
Since you seem to enjoy it, calculate the monthly needed costs for that. I'd be very interested in that. Look up what the average artist and programmers earn. Calculate how much you need of each position to keep the world running. You should probably assume a certain number of customers, as that dictates how many people you need, since the content needed varies with the amount of subscribers you have. Mirroring the world onto several servers won't work in that system either, since it would evolve differently on each one and just make it harder to maintain in the end.
I very much look forward to come up with the fee for that business model. Even if the fee turns out to be reasonable, I'm not sure that business model would be picked up by any publisher/developer due to higher risks involved. So as much as I would love to see a game like this, it won't happen anytime soon and especially not come from any of the big companies. As some other posters in this thread already noted, more money is made by maximizing profit, not having more turnover.
The point which is totally wrong is the troll/kiddy/whatnots being unable to play when the monthly fee increases. A Family Dad who might be the best and coolest person in the world will rather not spend 60$ on an mmo for himself, while the spoiled single kid from his neighbour will get it installed on his brand new powerhorse pc. The only way you could improve the quality of people playing a game would be handpicking them. Not by means of money, but by watching their behaviour. That could mean anyone getting kicked out though, including the people with the big pockets. (Not that this would be good business tactics for most of the time, unless you want to loose 80% or more of your customers overnight).
www.gLitterbug.org
Maybe, maybe not. I think it would work in the same way as an exclusive club works. You let only those people in which are known best or friends of people who are known best. Using this philosophy you do not need to kick out many, but you should do it if needed to keep the exclusive touch and the best enterainment factor for those valueable customers who do not bother about paying a bit more.
There is really no luxury MMO yet, and maybe it might not work, who knows. For many people it is also insane to buy a car which costs more than 100,000$ - nevertheless many of them are sold all the time and the demand for those is steadily rising, due to the simple fact that people, who do not have much time enjoy the best they can get to make the best out of their time. This could happen also to the gaming industry if games would offer better gameplay and would be catered to casual players, which play just a few hours a month but for a long time.
Ragosch
How much are you willing to offer? My hobby budget won't increase suddenly, if I put more in MMOs, I put less elsewhere. Convincing me that I should not buy Heroes of Might and Magic V or Galactic Civilisation II is $4 a month each. Now, I doesn't see how a MMO would manage to convince me of that, but there are also other games which I buy. MMOs are not on the TOP of my gaming atm, they are slightly above the average, nothing more. Even CoH would never have manage to convince me to not buy Galactic Civilisation II for example...in face, I would buy GalCiv II before any MMO atm, since it is very cheap for all the fun it bring.
The more you charge, the more FUN you provide. Raiding is not fun, PvP is not fun and tradeskills are not fun either. Sooo...I doesn't feel I would play if they would charge more than now, but who know? If the game appeal enough...but we ain't talking of the currently released MMOs for sure.
I doesn't currently subscribe to any MMO as I feel none offer enough for what they charge. hehe, $15 is currently worth more than a subscribtion to ANY existing MMO, I could pay more than that, but it would have to be worth it.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
The biggest complaint that I hear about MMOGs today is that after a few months worth of play there's nothing to do...lack of content, especially after max level. This is a huge problem for developers today and one that will likely plague low end MMOGs for a long time to come.
High end MMOGs will have very sophisticated Mission Creation AI that will eliminate the problem of lack of content. Mission Creation AI will be able to build hundreds of thousands of unique missions and quests specifically designed to provide maximum enjoyment for the player. These missions would be just like playing through a level or two of a really good single player game; they would come complete with secret passages/areas; interactive furniture/appliances; traps, alarms and locks to overcome, etc.. Of course the loot in these missions and quests would be meaningful and geared toward the player character.
High end MMOGs will also have very advanced NPC/pet/mob AI. NPCs/pets/mobs will be able to actually talk and communicate with the player characters in a meaningful way that gives the player far more information than is available through the pathetic NPC/pet/mob "ai" that we have today. NPC/pet/mob AI will be able to convey emotional content and give subtle clues as to the intent of the NPC.
High end MMOGs will have a development team big enough and talented enough to provide a steady stream of high quality content. Custom content would also be available...for an additional charge of course.
Sophisticated Mission Creation AI and advanced NPC/pet/mob AI will require hundreds of millions of $ and millions of manhours to research and develop to the level that I have discribed.
You will never hear anyone complain about lack of high quality content in a high end MMOG.
MMOs are already too expensive at $15 a month. A brand new game goes for somewhere between $40 and $50. By the current model, we should be getting an entire game's worth of content every 3 months. Who here can name an MMO that does that?
We, the game playing consumers, are already ponying up plenty of cash. Let's see the developers hold up their end before we start throwing money at them. I guess it's fun to talk about "advanced AI" and "high end" games, but in reality most developers don't even manage an entire game's worth of content for launch. I can't imagine how increasing prices could change this.
Game developers might have you believe that a quality game would cost more money to produce and maintain, but that is simply not the case.
Being innovative and holding true to your original vision so as not to alienate your client base is what makes a game successful and profitable. EvE is a perfect example of a game which caters to a niche, not my type of game, but is loyal to their vision and profitable with a subscription base of 100k users.
Clearly companies like SOE who should be abe to make quality games because of their expertise and manpower, are not. Smedley is way overpayed for the results he is generating. Inflated salaries are the first place to cut back in order to allocate more funding to hiring bright new talent.
My personal limit per month would be about $20 for a MMOG subscription. As stated before, for $30-$50 a month you can buy a new single box game every month which would easily entertain you with a fresh new experience during that period.
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I should pay +60$ a month for a really good game that fit all my wishes, but i dont think the quality is related with the price.
60$ price is a big problem to have lot of pleople playing the game, and a highly populated world is a key aspect of what i consider as a nice mmorpg. so, probably having to pay 60$+ it will never become the game i have been always looking for, so, i will not pay it.
greyface is spot on the mark there!!! we already over pay hugely...1 million people buy wow for 30 quid each thats an initial of 30 million quid...ahhh but thats nothing!!!! 1 million people paying 10 quid a month for 12 months now thats something...120 million quid a year!!! this is stupid money...this is like wow fuck me these idoits will pay anything to run around with a sword of nucleargodbang +7.....ive said it before and ill say it again the more customers the lower the subscription!! since its launch in europe in beggining of 2005 they have hit 1 million customers in europe alone thats a god damn lot of revenue being generated, and what do we see for our money? absolutely nothing, not even a lowering of subscription costs , we get an expansion pack this year in which people can do more of the same. value for money i dont think so.....i use blizzrd as an example becuase they r right now the biggest exploiters of this
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I seems like you've thought about this subject in the past gLitterbug.
I'm prayin' that some small-medium size developer will have the courage and be inspired to create a True Masterpiece MMOG. Naturally a small developer would have to add quite a lot of talent to his/her team...but it's the vision of creating a True Masterpiece MMOG that counts. If such a team were to start working today they could have the first beta test sometime in 2010 (fingers crossed).
A higher monthly fee will keep out most of the little kiddies; the trolls/jack@$$es, although discouraged by higher monthly fees, can be dealt with in other ways.
A higher monthly fee will keep out most of the little kiddies; the trolls/jack@$$es
veiws like this are just wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wrong wrong and fuckin wrong!!!!!!!!!
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Actually, if MMO's want to compete with games like Guild Wars, they shouldn't make you pay for anything, unless they really are the best out there. Ad if it was the best MMO ever, I would only pay around $10 a month, tops, otherwise, it's just robbery...
Your an excellent example of the poor/cheapskate I mentioned earlier. If "gamers" like you had your way developers would never make any money and the rest of us would be stuck with no MMOGs at all. That would suit you just fine wouldn't it?
It's not my fault that you're unable to afford the better things in life, but still you would love to deny me the pleasure of playing a really good video game...how fucked up is that?
Please promise me that you'll never ever play a high end MMOG...ok?
For me, I'd pay between $15 and $5, though maybe less if I can get away with it. I see a lot of games out there know that try to charge $10 per month and I don't see any point. I mean... Mankind, or Shattered Galaxies (both MMORTS games) trying to charge $10 per month for such an old and outdated game? Especially when the gameplay isn't anything special. I'd probably be more willing to play a lot of existing MMOs if they were only $10 per month. Like maybe Eve, for example. I'm not playing it now because there isn't enough to do in the game, short of having to fly into 0.0 and beat everyone up (yeah, right) and set up a player owned based to do some of the "advanced" content.
[quote]Originally posted by poopypants
Your an excellent example of the poor/cheapskate I mentioned earlier. If "gamers" like you had your way developers would never make any money and the rest of us would be stuck with no MMOGs at all. That would suit you just fine wouldn't it?[/b][/quote]
A lot of MMO players are (relatively) poor people that play because it's cheap entertainment, at least compared to going to the movies twice a month or paying for cable. But anyway, Guild Wars is a good example of a game that can provide a MMO-like experience without the monthly costs. If other companies can't make a game to compete with the lack of a monthly fee, then they're operating on an ineffecient model and need to change or fall like many other companies before them that crumble when competition appears.
The funny thing is that players would do exactly that if you gave them the opportunities. Players don't role play because it doesn't boost their stats. Even for the players that still want to RP, nothing they do will affect the "story" of the game, so most don't try very hard. Players don't get any say in item content. If they could design stuff, using either a mix-match of an bunch of pre-created different hilt-pommel-crossbrace-blade-effects for swords or creating their own entirely, you'd see more unique items. If there were dynamic elements with means for players to interact then the world might be evolving, but most of them are designed to be static not for lack of manpower, but because they don't allow the players to change the world so that it is dynamic.
Gaming is quickly becoming a popular hobby for couples and families. By trying to price out the "kiddies" , you will also price out couples and families who would need more than one account. That would be a shame. I really doubt that it would work, anyway. I bet you'd see little to no difference in the amount of silliness that goes on MMOs. They're like little worlds and probably have the same percentage of people engaging in inappropriate behaviour as the real world does... well, maybe just a wee bit more.
Most of the uncouth people I've met online are adults, anyway. Charging $30 - $60 is likely to just keep the responsible, family oriented adults from subscribing... you know, the one's you would really prefer playing with. With them gone, you'll just notice the idiots more.
Okay, for sake of argument, here's what it would take to get me to pay $60 a month for an MMO: free & unlimited /pizza.... but only if there's some kind of hot wings on the menu. I prefer bonless, but I'd settle for regular hot wings. And it needs to come with some pre-packaged moist towelettes, because I do not want to get buffalo sauce on my keyboard. /Beer might push my max subscription fee up to maybe $65 a month, provided they had a robust selection of microbrews and could get it to my house while it was still cold.
Your an excellent example of the poor/cheapskate I mentioned earlier. If "gamers" like you had your way developers would never make any money and the rest of us would be stuck with no MMOGs at all. That would suit you just fine wouldn't it?
It's not my fault that you're unable to afford the better things in life, but still you would love to deny me the pleasure of playing a really good video game...how fucked up is that?
Please promise me that you'll never ever play a high end MMOG...ok?
Your statement is elitist and your argument is weak at best. The individual never said he couldn't affort the fee, he said the value did not exist to justify a fee greater then $10 a month. No one is "denying" you anything, you would deny many gamers from games by pricing them so high it would collapse the genre.
All you are advocating is increasing fees for no better reason then the hope of better content. Something the companies already provide. Thus far you have been unable to give any sort of real reason to increase monthly fees at all.
Hero's Journey is already moving to provide the type of game service you described in an earily post. I believe the fees will NOT be $60 a month.
I like the free pizza idea
You're right Signe, thank the gods, MMOGs are becoming more and more popular with a much broader range of people. I'm so grateful for what WoW has done for MMOGaming; it has done a great service to MMOGamers by bringing millions of new gamers into the fold (I'm not diggin' the whole lesbian-gay-whatever thing that's been going on, but...). My girlfriend and I used to love playing online together but, unfortunately, MMOGs have lost their luster...now all we see is junk. The last MMOG we played was EVE (for less than a month) and we quit that about 14 months ago; We've been boycotting the genre ever since. But there's a glimmer of hope...with the introduction of the PS3 we may well see the high end MMOGs that I've been talking about (fingers crossed).
You're wrong about pricing couples and families out. It costs My girl and me more than $70 to see a couple of movies a month! Talk about a total ripoff!
Even at the full $60 a pop MMOGs are a heck of a bargain! And I'm sure there would be attractive discounts for couples and families, making MMOGs an entertainment value of unparalleled proportions!
I'd glady pay $60, and i'm dirt poor.
Everything in RL is expensive as hell. Seems everytime i go outside the door i end up eating ramen for a month. Having an mmorpg to play will save me allot of money.
A single player title that would keep my attention for a few days at most is allready $60. An mmorpg means hours of entertainment every single day.
Would the games get any better? Nah. Pumping that amount of money into making a "premium mmorpg" would just press the developers to try and please every single demographic group, and that's a sure recipe for mediocrity.
It might be beneficial for niche games however. If someone wants to spend WoW's budget on making a lumberjack simulator they could.
Are you the village idiot where your from?
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i clicked this topic because there was actually more posts then views 73 to 72 lol.
Your an excellent example of the poor/cheapskate I mentioned earlier. If "gamers" like you had your way developers would never make any money and the rest of us would be stuck with no MMOGs at all. That would suit you just fine wouldn't it?
It's not my fault that you're unable to afford the better things in life, but still you would love to deny me the pleasure of playing a really good video game...how fucked up is that?
Please promise me that you'll never ever play a high end MMOG...ok?
Please tell us how much money you have and how much you earn, we are all dying to know whether or not we too can afford to be in your exclusive rich club.
Mylon - Yes, that is one of the things I would do when creating an mmo. Give the players more power. Basically EVE does something like that, I haven't played long enough, but EVE is like a complex space economy simulation. With most of the power in players hands. I just read another Interview which surprised me as to how much thought and work they put into that.
As poopypants said, I thought and think about stuff like that every day practically. Game development is still my dream, altough a bit farther in the future than I would like I'm affraid. The content problem could be at least eased with what Mylon said about the players. If you look at modders and the urge a lot of people have to create their own content, a developer should utilize that to improve his own game without much additional cost. How this could be done follows shortly.
What poopypants hints at with this post isn't even close to being dumb. The higher cost might not necessarily scare away trolls, but the type of game you create would probably. Being smaller and more focused and not appeal to a bunch as big as WoW's customers automatically gets you rid of a lot of the bad apples. So creating an mmo with a concept that is off the mass market, but can gather a large enough userbase who appreciates it and is ready to pay enough for it to keep things running would be the target. Assuming I had a company I would start off by creating a concept with more complex mechanisms and geared strongly toward a certain number of people. That might exclude me from getting millions of signups (at first), but as a small developer you wouldn't be able to handle an explosion in customers like that anyways. A thought that actually got confirmed today in the EVE interview I read. So tailoring the mmo to your targeted customer base, you can for example advertise without giving false statements in hope to lure in customers. (If you have a quality product that is, but that is what I assume in the first place.)
So if you calculated through the business plan and you have your game and the amount of subscribers needed to maintain it, then you can over time slowly expand. There will be no shortage of subscribers if you have a quality product that has the appeal of an exclusive club which everyone wants to get into. Now add to this what Mylon said about player created content. Gamers interested in real roleplaying will go to great lengths creating something to give others joy if you let them. In that vein you would need to design a system to help people like that and in some way reward them for it.
Continuing the thought of player created content, we can go as far as custom created 3d models of characters, houses, items etc. This area is a bit more tacky as it could break your game if not implementing some kind of quality control. So what would need to be done is hand out very strict guidelines for custom content and have submitted content run through some special employees hand who then puts it into the game if it adheres to the content specifications. As so often seen on the net, there are a lot of capable artists who create content for fun. Neverwinter Nights being a prime example. Even if you had strict guidelines there might be enough coming in to actually matter and the thought of being able to get your own stuff in the game would be one of the best advertising you could get as it would create quite the uproar itself wherever published. For whoever is not an artist but still wants his custom armor done I would have artists specifically assigned to that job, but of course that might mean the customer needs to pay for his armor with real life money. Looking at the urge people have to be special and what is going on with mmo money on ebay and the like, I wouldn't be affraid of a lack of customers using this service.
Now what I just wrote is only rough and in the order my thoughts pop out while hitting my keys, but I bet there is a lot of truth in it. I think someone mentioned the problem already, the bigger companies see no sense in making something like this. After all how would you persuade a marketing head at Sony, Blizzard or whatever big successfull company that you limit the amount of subscribers and therefore the profit you can make? Creating a company that earns just enough to keep on going and make a slight profit? Insane. Personally I would start preproduction tomorrow if someone would finance a business plan like this.
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