Originally posted by Obraik Originally posted by Wakizashi It's pretty simple. People who disliked PRE-CU were getting pwned everyday and it made them angry. Or they felt that the profession they liked and chose, wasn't the best in the game. Basically, it boils down to the combat system and nothing else. They couldn't achieve, or they didn't think they had to achieve to be successful. It's really sad. Content is a weak argument as it has nothing to do whatsoever with the various versions of the game. Content is simply the Dev team getting off their asses and adding in things like the Covette and DWB. But fear not, now that the 'poor me's' have their way, the game is dead. Enjoy Wussbags!That's BS. For a start you can look at my first reply up some, not once do I mention it was too hard to play or too complicated
I didn't dislike pre-cu, let me get this straight, you didn't dislike pre-cu
I definetly have some great game memories from that period and it's what got me hooked on the game . BUT it had its many frustrations and was not the happy story many make it out to be. I was a Pistoleer pre-cu, out of all the specials we had, only 2 or 3 actually worked. HEre is the major flaw with your attitude towards the game. Oddly enough, it seemed Pistoleers whined incessantly. Don't like the way Pistoleer is treating you? REROLL! Here is the classic point I just made in my post. Your Pistoleer wasn't up to snuff in your opinion. So what did you do? YOu stayed a Pistoleer like a moron and just whined and whined and whined. Why was it so important to be a Pistoleer? WAs it worth a poor play experiance? Surely you recognize there were other viable combat professions right? OR did you just want to whine and complain until you got your way like a baby?
Publish after publish it was all the same professions getting fixes and in my opinion it turned into a power trip between the Jedi and BH's on who could get the most love in each publish . I can just feel the jealousy in your words through the screen. NOt that I will deny that what you say is true, but it speaks to the kind of player you were that they weren't fixing you personally to where you thought it ought to be.
PvP revolved around having a CM in your group and if your side didn't have one then you were pretty much screwed. Here again, OMG CM is too much! They are much more powerful than me! NERF! NERF! NERF! Because everyone knows that Combat Medics were simply INVINCIBLE. Right?
The best weapons were too easy to come across for those of us that had the credits and too hard for those that were newish to the game or just didn't have the time to spend hunting for credits. That's not to say I agree with the idea of everyone being able to loot uber weapons, thats taken it to the other extreme.Well, its too late now. Thanks for complaining that things were too hard. Satisfied now? I know you say it's too much on here, but perhaps had you thought before you spoke sooner, you would have realized the fallacy of having these uber loot weapons. I take it, you never played the crafting side of the game? Way to go.
Then there were buffs, a love-hate relationship. Great in that they did offer a way to meet new people and just hang out and chat about your experiences but bad in that anything in game became dependent on them and they were somewhat of a time sink.HEre we go again with another buff whine. If you didn't like having to wait for a buff, why didn't you roll a doctor toon? And by the way, anyone who complains they have to wait for buffs, was not very involved or knowledgable of the game. On my old server Kauri, which always was a very small server, there were no less than 4 Master Doctors buffing at the Dantooine Mining Outpost 24/7. Give me a break.
If you were doing PvE, you could get by without having a buff if you were in a big enough group, which I did in the beginning. Eventually tho, people got better at crafting greater buffs and people found they didn't need a group to do anything. So, it ended up no one wanted to group, and if they did it was for a solo-group which meant you HAD to have a buff for combat.I want you to re-read what you just wrote and think about it. What does it tell you when no one prefers to group? IT MEANS NO ONE PREFERS TO GROUP! This game wasn't Everquest. It was this ability, to be able to play alone if you wanted to that made it enjoyable and viable to many many people. Forced grouping is about as appealing as forced PvP, or forced anything.
It could take up to an hour sometimes to get fully buffed and ready to actually go do stuff, and when I usually only have 2-3 hours during the day to play it left little time to do anything. During my prime time (I live in NZ for those that don't know, my afternoon is your primetime) it was hard to find docs to buff you, even buff bots would be scarce (especially during my winter when I usually couldn't get on until after server reset which usued to be daily affair)Again, roll a doctor toon. And if you say you didn't want to play a doctor, well then too bad. YOu must decide, do you want buffs or do you want to find the location of an AFK buffbot. And dont tell me there wasn't any on your server. There were lots on all servers. kthxbye.
I see what could be good posts with decent points being lost because the posters start posturing like 14-year old FPS'ers on an 8-hour Jolt binge. Calm down and make your point without slinging insults, the only one you'll make look better is yourself.
Now, I don't know about the other people claiming it's "too hard," but what I'm talking about is that it lacked accessibility for the average Star Wars fan who saw the game on the shelf and decided to pick it up. It was never a case of, "Oh man, can I figure this out?" but more a case of, "Is this worth figuring out?"
I would guess the bulk of people who are saying that it was a breeze to get into are people with some, if not a lot, of MMO experience before they picked up SWG. That's fine, but remember that the bulk of people trying this game out for the first time wanted to because it's a Star Wars game, and those are mostly action/console. Pre-CU SWG was a great game designed for people who were into MMOs, the real problem with it was that it was marketed to people who were into Star Wars instead. And that's not to say the Star Wars market is dumb, they just have different expectations. I'm a member of Mensa (IQ around 142), and my reaction when playing this game the first time was, "Not enough Star Wars fun to be worth figuring out." (And my opinion changed as my experience and interest with MMOs grew, I did feel it was "enough MMO fun to figure out." And it wasn't difficult to figure out at all after I knew what the particular genre expects of me.)
And something to consider, I think it's more logical to assume stagnant subscription numbers are to blame for the CUNGE game changes rather than a rabble of "their toon is better than mine" forum whiners. They're annoying, but blaming them is just looking for an easy scapegoat.
Just an opinion,
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
they disliked it cause they were crybabies and couldn't take me pwning them with my uber shiz like my nym's vibroknucklers and good armor and every type of food & drink and buff....damn that was fun.....CRYBABIES SUCKKKKKK!1111!11111!!!!
Being complex is what made it great. If you had a brain and common sense and had the good sense to allly with the right people it was incredible. There were lots of people who didn't get it and I taught alot of people the finer points of the game, some got it, some didn't...the ones that didn't were the n00b feast!11
My original post to this thread got to be one of my long winded ones and frankly, that is putting too much effort into a game that is dying a slow and mutilated death as it incurs sweeping system changes, personnel changes and is a testbed for future mmorpgs by sony. Rather, let me summarize the best I can about the PreCU era.
The system was complex and BEFORE uber Doc buffs - you were terribly human. While I loved that aspect because it induces intelligent play and true fear for obscene combat odds - it wasn't what the vocal wanted. Soloing is a staple of the mmorpg existance and unless you had your strategies down - many of the deeper aspects of the game were just too deadly. To counter this - they invented as a quick fix - the uber doc buff. A relatively game breaking invention that would be the equivalent of dropping the Hulk into your hometown.
How should it have been fixed? Content. Working solobased content. Players had tons of great ideas on how to do it. Threads were written but ignored. I think I can easily say that few would argue that there wasn't all that much to do in quest form after the theme parks and the list of quests you could complete in 2 weeks time (providing they were working and yes I went to all the sites to find them).
SOE for some reason seemed to believe that people would continue to play for years if they tinkered with vocal populated professions and saw the Star Wars logo on their screen. The Vette and DWB were added, true, but they were heavily group oriented. Two new quests do not a renewal make.
What should have been done was have a team for new content (QUESTS - immersive, rewarding and replayable) and also sent a team to work on the unfinished professions and bugs. Yet, they ignored a list of bugs that ran on a multiple page thread and kept promising broken professions that they would have a revamp. God, I hate that word almost as much as Star Warsy.
Want to feel like you are in Star Wars? Put us in space outside of JTL. Vette was instanced and supposedly space based but all it felt like was a lair crawl. Get creative. Like that one quest involving those flowers and blowing up bases. Whoever did that had to have been fired for actually getting it right.
In the end, SOE ceased to work on it by deciding to throw the baby out with the bathwater and concentrate on a new system. Putting a new engine into a Pinto body isn't going to do much. Perhaps they thought the expansions were where the quests belonged so that they could derive more profit from their efforts...who knows but in the end - they made the wrong choice in my opinion. Too late to go back now and there is no way in hell that I will go back to playing a simplified version of the game. It would be like revisiting a brilliant friend who had been afflicted with alzheimers. Too painful to bear.
I am so sick of hearing about the lack of content. If I hear that one more time I am going to scream.
First off it didn't need any content. I remember the great trek's out to the Tusken fort to see if we could own it. Sitting up on the plateau waiting for others to join, shooting the breeze. Talking about whether jedi was a myth and such. We made our own content.
The professions were the content in my opinion. That was half the fun, figuring out what to do for each one.
I played EQ2, a game with "great content". Here is how that game worked: "Want to join us? Sure. We need to do this mission, ok? Sure. Ok, we have finished the mission we needed and are taking off, you need to find another group to help you with your mission." That happened to me so often that when I hit level 20 and you needed "content" to progress I quit.
There was a lot of content in SWG. The problem is we all quit.
There are only 10 types of people in this world, those that understand binary and those that don't
You can be sick of hearing it - I was sick of living without it. Those quest terminals were content - they were milk runs and mindless at that. Ask me about a quest save for the Imperial related. Go on - try me. I did them all. And it took less than two weeks. I had a large Naboo house filled with every quest related item I could grab but in the end - there was nothing game or character related to do. The system was great, the community was without equal - they failed us on adding content to the game and fixing bugs.
AV-21s are not content. Tracks are not content. New weapons, animations or abilities are not content. Give me a place to go, some people to see, some obstacles to face. DO NOT send me to the middle of a freaking plain and tell me at such and such location - I get a badge.
I'm sorry, Caine, but SWG DID need more content. Missions, quests and errands with a little depth and involvement rather than the classic every-game-gets-this-wrong mistaking forced-teaming (or harder) for more challenging and engaging.
Not forced, stilted, linear "you have to do this" quests but varied, interesting and rewarding quests where the reward of actually DOING them was as much fun as the cash or prizes payoff for doing each one in the first place.
Seasonal and holiday fun that consisted of more than some lame gift to stuff into your house to gather virtual dust or worse vanish on the next publish or patch.
Consistant and unbugged expansions and upgrades on lootable craftables that can either be assembled by your buddy the artisan and sometimes on your very own with a little help from the junk vendor. They COULD do that because there was a little bit of that in there for a time. Just far too little of it.
Even Anarchy Online (produced by a tiny, fledgeling european company) boasted more ingame content than SWG and it was older and running on far less subscription money than SWG. But then, FunCom, while bumbling, inexperienced and goofy as they were back then, always seemed to have the passion for their game and their customers that SOE boasts they have but always (and to this day) proved they lack -- which is pathetic, considering that SOE is older, more experienced, and far more heavily backed by their parental megacorp.
Pre-CU was the brilliant foundation for a game that SHOULD have made EQ look like pong. But they never bothered to finish it and never moved forward in introducing the actual content that the foundation seemed to promise. It was groundbreaking, but no one bothered building on the fantastic foundation. They just left it there and poked at it till they broke it, then paved it over, started building something more mundane and less cool...before abandoning THAT and paving the whole thing over again and putting in the parkinglot of mmos: nge.
Pre-CU & CU were both good with some problems. For the most part they were good though.
Breaking the Pre-CU problems down to their core issues:
Buffs were over powered. They should not have allowed players to solo any content in the game, which they could. They, simply put, were 'god mode'. A few modifications to lower their power (but not duration) would have been perfect.
Armor was too restrictive. At no point in any game should it REQUIRE buffs to put armor on. Armor should be wearable without having to visit someone else to buff you. That's just all there is to it. Also, armor was too tiered. Composite was the ONLY armor worth wearing, especially in PVP. The armor needed to be better balanced out.
TEF system needed to be replaced (and was).
There needed to be a method to heal mind damage in combat, perhaps give entertainers that ability.
Yes there were some class balance issues but that's true of every iteration of the game (Pre CU, CU, NGE, all of them have balance issues). But at the core the above 4 bullets cover the biggest problems with Pre-CU.
CU also introduced problems of it's own:
Made the game too 'level' oriented.
Added too many 'dropped' items to the game, weakening crafters.
Gating armor by class weakened crafters (and ticked off players)
Buffs were 'over nerfed' to the point where doctors were no longer useful as they had been. Also converted basically every class into a combat profession except crafters and entertainers. People REALLY liked being a doctor 'behind the lines' so to speak. Taking that away was a mistake.
Removal of Battle Fatigue removed any real need for players to see entertainers. Thus breaking another profession's point, not to mention the removal of incentive to go to the cantina's weakened the roleplay aspect of the game.
Biggest complaints about NGE:
Any semblance of a skill based system was abandoned.
Twitchy style combat turned off a lot of people. Not to mention the engine just doesn't handle it well.
Converted the entire xp system and didn't address the CORE GAME quests which caused 'expansion gating' to levelling. Players can only level to 30 in the core game because none of the core game quests were re-tooled, only expansion quests.
Destroyed several professions.
Removed the ability to be 'unique' and the ability to tweak your skills how you wanted them.
Added even MORE dropped/quested gear that crafters either can't make or can't compete with in quality. Again weakening the crafter profession.
Those appear to be the biggest bad points of the various iterations of SWG.
Now my stance on how to properly fix SWG would be:
Go back to a pre-CU skill based game, modify the XP system as listed later in this list, however. No "Level" modifiers to damage. Go back to the original HAM system. Basically re-implement the class and combat system of Pre-CU.
Modify buffs the way they were by CU but leave the LEVEL system out of it. Leave Buff Duration at 2hrs so Docs can choose to be a 'behind the lines' doc if they so desire.
Modify Armor the way it was in the CU but leave any level system or 'certificaton' system out of it.
Leave entertainers alone but add a bit more melee defense to the skill trees (if you can dance, you can dodge) Basically a master entertainer should have almost as much melee defense as a master brawler. Add a mind heal line to the base entertainer profession so that there is a way to heal mind damage.
Implement player bounties based on FACTION!! Not PVP. If your faction drops low enough with certain NPC factions trigger NPC based bounties for the player. Allowing PLAYERS to place bounties just opens up a HUGE can of worms for various methods of exploitation and harassment/abuse.
Add all the story type quests that came with NGE. These missions are the BEST feature of the NGE and could have been implemented with any iteration of the game. Make the quests give general "SKILL" xp. Skill XP should be able to be spent in ANY profession you choose. Combat profession XP (Pistol/Rifle/Etc) should be given as well for the combat professions based on what weapons you use to kill creatures. So make it a hybrid quest xp / skill xp system. Blended.
That's what I'd do to fix SWG and make it into the complex and original sandbox it once was while adding all the things that CU and NGE did RIGHT.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
I found pre-CU to be pretty terrible, in terms of design. There were certainly aspects of it that I liked, but overall I felt the CU was an improvement to a system that never got off the ground.
The first problem with the pre-CU was the buff lines. You had to buff to wear armor. And the armor that you had to buff to wear was 9 times out of 10, Composite armor. In a game that offered such diversity in terms of looks as SWG did, making everyone wear the same armor (and NEEDING to buff to wear it) was too convoluted. You had to pay to wait in line to play the game, and that wasn't right.
The second problem was the overemphasis some classes recieved for combat, namely TKM. The big joke about the class system of SWG early on was that the game should have been called "Big Game Hunter: Kung Fu Master". Every group I was in, some Bruce Lee wannabe would be standing in place fighting some stormtrooper for 5 minutes talking about how "easy" the game was.
The third problem, and this is with SWG overall and it doesn't matter pre-CU, post-CU, NGE, is that there were so many rare quest-only items put in later that item decay really messed you up. If you're a Jedi and you lose your lightsaber, what then?
Now, were these problems that could have been fixed in the Pre-CU system? No. These weren't just "tweaks". These were symptoms of a fundamental problem. The fundamental problem was that your hitpoints didn't naturally increase as you fought higher level mobs, who had their HAM increased. Thus, you NEEDED buffs and you NEEDED Composite armor. The #1 thing the CU did was give you a natural buff appropriate to your level so you didn't need to stand in line to play the game.
No more buff lines, no more cloned armor, and combat professions were re-established to give ranged a greater emphasis over melee.
My only real problem with the CU, which was a necessary fix regardless of what new system they put in, was the way they rushed it out and implemented it after teasing that they had "something" for all of 2004. The CU was something that should have been done ASAP, but only with the greatest care. It's obvious SOE had NOTHING in 2004 after teasing us about it and that we waited almost 2 years for this new system.
The only thing pre-CU had going for it was that it was new. It was new, it was a fresh new game in a fresh new Galaxy and the community was strong. I had better times pre-CU than I did post-CU, but that had nothing to do with the system. It had to do with the energy the community had and the discovery of new friends and new adventures in familiar places online.
EVERYONE I know who left pre-cu said "LACK OF CONTENT"
Post CU said "BAD GAMEPLAY.. missed the pre-cu engine"
Post nge.. "What the hell did $OE do to this game!?!?!?!"
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Originally posted by Wakizashi It's pretty simple. People who disliked PRE-CU were getting pwned everyday and it made them angry. Or they felt that the profession they liked and chose, wasn't the best in the game. Basically, it boils down to the combat system and nothing else. They couldn't achieve, or they didn't think they had to achieve to be successful. It's really sad. Content is a weak argument as it has nothing to do whatsoever with the various versions of the game. Content is simply the Dev team getting off their asses and adding in things like the Covette and DWB. But fear not, now that the 'poor me's' have their way, the game is dead. Enjoy Wussbags! That's BS. For a start you can look at my first reply up some, not once do I mention it was too hard to play or too complicated
I didn't dislike pre-cu,let me get this straight, you didn't dislike pre-cu
I definetly have some great game memories from that period and it's what got me hooked on the game . BUT it had its many frustrations and was not the happy story many make it out to be. I was a Pistoleer pre-cu, out of all the specials we had, only 2 or 3 actually worked. HEre is the major flaw with your attitude towards the game. Oddly enough, it seemed Pistoleers whined incessantly. Don't like the way Pistoleer is treating you? REROLL! Here is the classic point I just made in my post. Your Pistoleer wasn't up to snuff in your opinion. So what did you do? YOu stayed a Pistoleer like a moron and just whined and whined and whined. Why was it so important to be a Pistoleer? WAs it worth a poor play experiance? Surely you recognize there were other viable combat professions right? OR did you just want to whine and complain until you got your way like a baby?
Heh, so I should have joined everyone else and been like them? Hmm, I thought a popular complaint from people was that there is no uniqueness in the NGE yet you point out a flaw to that argument. There were only a few combinations that worked well, and those were the most played combinations. I never whined on the forums about Pistoleer being broken, and if you consider a consolidated bug thread on the Pistoleer forum whining then I'm guessing you never looked at the Jedi forum
Publish after publish it was all the same professions getting fixes and in my opinion it turned into a power trip between the Jedi and BH's on who could get the most love in each publish . I can just feel the jealousy in your words through the screen. NOt that I will deny that what you say is true, but it speaks to the kind of player you were that they weren't fixing you personally to where you thought it ought to be.
Call it what you want, but at the end of the day there were more professions then just Jedi and BH and they all needed fixes. However, they never recieved them. I had no desire to be a Jedi.
PvP revolved around having a CM in your group and if your side didn't have one then you were pretty much screwed. Here again, OMG CM is too much! They are much more powerful than me! NERF! NERF! NERF! Because everyone knows that Combat Medics were simply INVINCIBLE. Right?
Heh, I was a CM/Pistoleer so I know how strong they were first hand. Dominating battles is only fun for so long...
The best weapons were too easy to come across for those of us that had the credits and too hard for those that were newish to the game or just didn't have the time to spend hunting for credits. That's not to say I agree with the idea of everyone being able to loot uber weapons, thats taken it to the other extreme.Well, its too late now. Thanks for complaining that things were too hard. Satisfied now? I know you say it's too much on here, but perhaps had you thought before you spoke sooner, you would have realized the fallacy of having these uber loot weapons. I take it, you never played the crafting side of the game? Way to go.
Nope, never complained about it so don't blame me for it :P I was (and still am) a Weaponsmith on my alt.
Then there were buffs, a love-hate relationship. Great in that they did offer a way to meet new people and just hang out and chat about your experiences but bad in that anything in game became dependent on them and they were somewhat of a time sink.HEre we go again with another buff whine. If you didn't like having to wait for a buff, why didn't you roll a doctor toon? And by the way, anyone who complains they have to wait for buffs, was not very involved or knowledgable of the game. On my old server Kauri, which always was a very small server, there were no less than 4 Master Doctors buffing at the Dantooine Mining Outpost 24/7. Give me a break.
Try Chilastra at prime-time. You have nearly the entire server population wanting buffs from 5 Docs. I don't think I need to say more.
If you were doing PvE, you could get by without having a buff if you were in a big enough group, which I did in the beginning. Eventually tho, people got better at crafting greater buffs and people found they didn't need a group to do anything. So, it ended up no one wanted to group, and if they did it was for a solo-group which meant you HAD to have a buff for combat.I want you to re-read what you just wrote and think about it. What does it tell you when no one prefers to group? IT MEANS NO ONE PREFERS TO GROUP! This game wasn't Everquest. It was this ability, to be able to play alone if you wanted to that made it enjoyable and viable to many many people. Forced grouping is about as appealing as forced PvP, or forced anything.
Sure, soloing everyday stuff, but soloing some of the highend content isn't right. It's an MMO afterall. Many many people enjoy grouping with other people to accomplish a task, and not just for the sake of grouping. I think the balance they have now is just right.
It could take up to an hour sometimes to get fully buffed and ready to actually go do stuff, and when I usually only have 2-3 hours during the day to play it left little time to do anything. During my prime time (I live in NZ for those that don't know, my afternoon is your primetime) it was hard to find docs to buff you, even buff bots would be scarce (especially during my winter when I usually couldn't get on until after server reset which usued to be daily affair)Again, roll a doctor toon. And if you say you didn't want to play a doctor, well then too bad. YOu must decide, do you want buffs or do you want to find the location of an AFK buffbot. And dont tell me there wasn't any on your server. There were lots on all servers. kthxbye.
Yes, I should have been a doctor so I could have actually played the game when ever I wanted. Just to remind you, I said most times at night I played after server reset. I'm not sure if you remember but when the server restarts everyone is kicked off, including buffbots. People needed to relog back in and start their buffbots again for me to be able to use them. Buffbots didn't generally start to re-appear until many hours after the server had come back up.
1. The need for buffs with armor and the time and money wasted trying to find a doc or get to the front of a line.
2. Unbalanced proffesions, not just things like carbineer which you were immpressed when you saw one, but proffesions that got NO love like Ranger and you thought you had saw a unicorn because the grind was crazy and they werent compensated with the proper skills.
3. Bugs and Lag. My missions used to dissapear and lag at the MO and Theed was nuts.
4. The lack of grouping other than solo groups, or very hard missions like the VET.
5. Power Templates where you stack defense or dodge making you almost impossible to kill.
6. Melee was more powerfull than range, I was sick of TKM's.
7. Dizzy KD and DOT PVP which required little skill or tactics. Dizzy someone and knock them down as a TKM and beat them down while they are on the ground.
But, Guess what? I loved the game anyway and I thought they should have slowly worked their way through each proffesion balancing them along the way, but instead they pushed out the combat upgrade which killed my gaming experience because I gave up my Master Shipwright which cost me about 15 million credits to grind to be combat level 80 so I could participate in combat without getting my ass whooped. I had a great Master Rifleman/Master Artisan/Master Shipwright avatar that was gone. The NGE just ruined every proffesion I wanted to be and the game I was playing was done. The NGE is SWG2, because its nowhere near the game I used to play.
Originally posted by Wakizashi Originally posted by Obraik Originally posted by WakizashiOriginally posted by ObraikOriginally posted by Wakizashi It's pretty simple. People who disliked PRE-CU were getting pwned everyday and it made them angry. Or they felt that the profession they liked and chose, wasn't the best in the game. Basically, it boils down to the combat system and nothing else. They couldn't achieve, or they didn't think they had to achieve to be successful. It's really sad. Content is a weak argument as it has nothing to do whatsoever with the various versions of the game. Content is simply the Dev team getting off their asses and adding in things like the Covette and DWB. But fear not, now that the 'poor me's' have their way, the game is dead. Enjoy Wussbags! That's BS. For a start you can look at my first reply up some, not once do I mention it was too hard to play or too complicatedI didn't dislike pre-cu,let me get this straight, you didn't dislike pre-cu I definetly have some great game memories from that period and it's what got me hooked on the game . BUT it had its many frustrations and was not the happy story many make it out to be. I was a Pistoleer pre-cu, out of all the specials we had, only 2 or 3 actually worked. HEre is the major flaw with your attitude towards the game. Oddly enough, it seemed Pistoleers whined incessantly. Don't like the way Pistoleer is treating you? REROLL! Here is the classic point I just made in my post. Your Pistoleer wasn't up to snuff in your opinion. So what did you do? YOu stayed a Pistoleer like a moron and just whined and whined and whined. Why was it so important to be a Pistoleer? WAs it worth a poor play experiance? Surely you recognize there were other viable combat professions right? OR did you just want to whine and complain until you got your way like a baby? Heh, so I should have joined everyone else and been like them? ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` I can't tell you what to do unless I know what you enjoyed in the game. If it was PVE, then there would be no need to change. IF it was PVP, then you need to change because obviously you weren't good enough to wield your limited Pistoleer skills effectively. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Hmm, I thought a popular complaint from people was that there is no uniqueness in the NGE yet you point out a flaw to that argument. ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` We're not talking about the NGE, we're talking about what you disliked about PRE-CU.`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` There were only a few combinations that worked well, and those were the most played combinations.`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Only a few eh? Does Jedi count? There were plenty of combinations that worked. In fact I would go so far as to say there were multiple winning 'combinations' to PVP. Just because you didn't feel the need to explore a profession, doesn't mean it is not viable. Certainly there were popular templates that gave certain advantages, but none were without weakness. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` I never whined on the forums about Pistoleer being broken, `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` But you whine here about only having 2 or 3 working specials? ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` and if you consider a consolidated bug thread on the Pistoleer forum whining then I'm guessing you never looked at the Jedi forum `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Actually, I don't consider bug threads whining. Its more like when someone says that they should be the best when they don't choose or work for the best. That is a whine.`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````Publish after publish it was all the same professions getting fixes and in my opinion it turned into a power trip between the Jedi and BH's on who could get the most love in each publish . I can just feel the jealousy in your words through the screen. NOt that I will deny that what you say is true, but it speaks to the kind of player you were that they weren't fixing you personally to where you thought it ought to be. Call it what you want, but at the end of the day there were more professions then just Jedi and BH and they all needed fixes. However, they never recieved them. I had no desire to be a Jedi.`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Your complaint that only Bounty Hunter and Jedi got fixes is irrelevant to the argument. And if it really bugged you that much, why didn't you quit after the second straight all Jedi publish?``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````PvP revolved around having a CM in your group and if your side didn't have one then you were pretty much screwed. Here again, OMG CM is too much! They are much more powerful than me! NERF! NERF! NERF! Because everyone knows that Combat Medics were simply INVINCIBLE. Right? Heh, I was a CM/Pistoleer so I know how strong they were first hand. Dominating battles is only fun for so long... ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` So you must have had an undefeated record in PVP? Tell me what was your ranking? PLease. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````The best weapons were too easy to come across for those of us that had the credits and too hard for those that were newish to the game or just didn't have the time to spend hunting for credits. That's not to say I agree with the idea of everyone being able to loot uber weapons, thats taken it to the other extreme.Well, its too late now. Thanks for complaining that things were too hard. Satisfied now? I know you say it's too much on here, but perhaps had you thought before you spoke sooner, you would have realized the fallacy of having these uber loot weapons. I take it, you never played the crafting side of the game? Way to go. Nope, never complained about it so don't blame me for it :P I was (and still am) a Weaponsmith on my alt.`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` YOu must be the single crafter exception to the rule who never complained about what they did to the crafting professions. And you are to blame, if you didn't complain, then you let SOE know it was OK to do waht they did. But this was your plan all along wasn't it. No more getting pwnd by people with better equipment. That'll level the playing field so you're Pistoleer/CM could finally compete. Oh wait, you already were dominating battles right?``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````Then there were buffs, a love-hate relationship. Great in that they did offer a way to meet new people and just hang out and chat about your experiences but bad in that anything in game became dependent on them and they were somewhat of a time sink.HEre we go again with another buff whine. If you didn't like having to wait for a buff, why didn't you roll a doctor toon? And by the way, anyone who complains they have to wait for buffs, was not very involved or knowledgable of the game. On my old server Kauri, which always was a very small server, there were no less than 4 Master Doctors buffing at the Dantooine Mining Outpost 24/7. Give me a break. Try Chilastra at prime-time. You have nearly the entire server population wanting buffs from 5 Docs. I don't think I need to say more. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Either Chilastra has the most players with the most wealth out of all the servers, or you were just ignorant of the Doctor population on the server. I'm guessing you never played a Master Doctor or you would know how much money you could make by buffing. Give the reader's some credit to believe that there were more than 5 whole doctors buffing for an entire server at any point in time. ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````If you were doing PvE, you could get by without having a buff if you were in a big enough group, which I did in the beginning. Eventually tho, people got better at crafting greater buffs and people found they didn't need a group to do anything. So, it ended up no one wanted to group, and if they did it was for a solo-group which meant you HAD to have a buff for combat.I want you to re-read what you just wrote and think about it. What does it tell you when no one prefers to group? IT MEANS NO ONE PREFERS TO GROUP! This game wasn't Everquest. It was this ability, to be able to play alone if you wanted to that made it enjoyable and viable to many many people. Forced grouping is about as appealing as forced PvP, or forced anything. Sure, soloing everyday stuff, but soloing some of the highend content isn't right. ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Only in you're opinion. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` It's an MMO afterall. Many many people enjoy grouping with other people to accomplish a task, and not just for the sake of grouping. I think the balance they have now is just right.````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` What about the people who didn't think that way? Oh well, too bad, working as intended?````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````It could take up to an hour sometimes to get fully buffed and ready to actually go do stuff, and when I usually only have 2-3 hours during the day to play it left little time to do anything. During my prime time (I live in NZ for those that don't know, my afternoon is your primetime) it was hard to find docs to buff you, even buff bots would be scarce (especially during my winter when I usually couldn't get on until after server reset which usued to be daily affair)Again, roll a doctor toon. And if you say you didn't want to play a doctor, well then too bad. YOu must decide, do you want buffs or do you want to find the location of an AFK buffbot. And dont tell me there wasn't any on your server. There were lots on all servers. kthxbye. Yes, I should have been a doctor so I could have actually played the game when ever I wanted. Just to remind you, I said most times at night I played after server reset. I'm not sure if you remember but when the server restarts everyone is kicked off, including buffbots. People needed to relog back in and start their buffbots again for me to be able to use them. Buffbots didn't generally start to re-appear until many hours after the server had come back up. ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````Cry more about the non-availablility of Doctors. ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Originally posted by Obraik Originally posted by Wakizashi It's pretty simple. People who disliked PRE-CU were getting pwned everyday and it made them angry. Or they felt that the profession they liked and chose, wasn't the best in the game. Basically, it boils down to the combat system and nothing else. They couldn't achieve, or they didn't think they had to achieve to be successful. It's really sad. Content is a weak argument as it has nothing to do whatsoever with the various versions of the game. Content is simply the Dev team getting off their asses and adding in things like the Covette and DWB. But fear not, now that the 'poor me's' have their way, the game is dead. Enjoy Wussbags! That's BS. For a start you can look at my first reply up some, not once do I mention it was too hard to play or too complicated
I didn't dislike pre-cu,let me get this straight, you didn't dislike pre-cu I definetly have some great game memories from that period and it's what got me hooked on the game . BUT it had its many frustrations and was not the happy story many make it out to be. I was a Pistoleer pre-cu, out of all the specials we had, only 2 or 3 actually worked. HEre is the major flaw with your attitude towards the game. Oddly enough, it seemed Pistoleers whined incessantly. Don't like the way Pistoleer is treating you? REROLL! Here is the classic point I just made in my post. Your Pistoleer wasn't up to snuff in your opinion. So what did you do? YOu stayed a Pistoleer like a moron and just whined and whined and whined. Why was it so important to be a Pistoleer? WAs it worth a poor play experiance? Surely you recognize there were other viable combat professions right? OR did you just want to whine and complain until you got your way like a baby? Heh, so I should have joined everyone else and been like them? ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` I can't tell you what to do unless I know what you enjoyed in the game. If it was PVE, then there would be no need to change. IF it was PVP, then you need to change because obviously you weren't good enough to wield your limited Pistoleer skills effectively. PvE was and still is my main enjoyment in the game. PvP tends to be a short burst of fun with lots of waiting around. The last sentence is another reason I don't PvP all that much too `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Hmm, I thought a popular complaint from people was that there is no uniqueness in the NGE yet you point out a flaw to that argument. ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` We're not talking about the NGE, we're talking about what you disliked about PRE-CU. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` There were only a few combinations that worked well, and those were the most played combinations. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Only a few eh? Does Jedi count? There were plenty of combinations that worked. In fact I would go so far as to say there were multiple winning 'combinations' to PVP. Just because you didn't feel the need to explore a profession, doesn't mean it is not viable. Certainly there were popular templates that gave certain advantages, but none were without weakness. Only multiples eh? Of course those popular professions were viable, but why couldn't all the others be viable too? `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` I never whined on the forums about Pistoleer being broken, `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` But you whine here about only having 2 or 3 working specials? Heh, nearly a year after it was fact It's an obversation of history, not a whine ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` and if you consider a consolidated bug thread on the Pistoleer forum whining then I'm guessing you never looked at the Jedi forum `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Actually, I don't consider bug threads whining. Its more like when someone says that they should be the best when they don't choose or work for the best. That is a whine. So, guess no ones whining then ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Publish after publish it was all the same professions getting fixes and in my opinion it turned into a power trip between the Jedi and BH's on who could get the most love in each publish . I can just feel the jealousy in your words through the screen. NOt that I will deny that what you say is true, but it speaks to the kind of player you were that they weren't fixing you personally to where you thought it ought to be. Call it what you want, but at the end of the day there were more professions then just Jedi and BH and they all needed fixes. However, they never recieved them. I had no desire to be a Jedi. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Your complaint that only Bounty Hunter and Jedi got fixes is irrelevant to the argument. And if it really bugged you that much, why didn't you quit after the second straight all Jedi publish? How is it irrelevant? It's a reason I don't miss pre-cu . Until JTL came out,I did just about quit and at that time I was down to playing a few hours a week. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` PvP revolved around having a CM in your group and if your side didn't have one then you were pretty much screwed. Here again, OMG CM is too much! They are much more powerful than me! NERF! NERF! NERF! Because everyone knows that Combat Medics were simply INVINCIBLE. Right? Heh, I was a CM/Pistoleer so I know how strong they were first hand. Dominating battles is only fun for so long... ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` So you must have had an undefeated record in PVP? Tell me what was your ranking? PLease. No, not undefeated because the other side usually also had a CM. ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` The best weapons were too easy to come across for those of us that had the credits and too hard for those that were newish to the game or just didn't have the time to spend hunting for credits. That's not to say I agree with the idea of everyone being able to loot uber weapons, thats taken it to the other extreme.Well, its too late now. Thanks for complaining that things were too hard. Satisfied now? I know you say it's too much on here, but perhaps had you thought before you spoke sooner, you would have realized the fallacy of having these uber loot weapons. I take it, you never played the crafting side of the game? Way to go. Nope, never complained about it so don't blame me for it :P I was (and still am) a Weaponsmith on my alt. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` YOu must be the single crafter exception to the rule who never complained about what they did to the crafting professions. And you are to blame, if you didn't complain, then you let SOE know it was OK to do waht they did. But this was your plan all along wasn't it. No more getting pwnd by people with better equipment. That'll level the playing field so you're Pistoleer/CM could finally compete. Oh wait, you already were dominating battles right? Haha . Where did I say I liked what they did to the crafting professions? I said they took it too far, which to me sounds like disproval rather then aproval. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Then there were buffs, a love-hate relationship. Great in that they did offer a way to meet new people and just hang out and chat about your experiences but bad in that anything in game became dependent on them and they were somewhat of a time sink.HEre we go again with another buff whine. If you didn't like having to wait for a buff, why didn't you roll a doctor toon? And by the way, anyone who complains they have to wait for buffs, was not very involved or knowledgable of the game. On my old server Kauri, which always was a very small server, there were no less than 4 Master Doctors buffing at the Dantooine Mining Outpost 24/7. Give me a break. Try Chilastra at prime-time. You have nearly the entire server population wanting buffs from 5 Docs. I don't think I need to say more. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Either Chilastra has the most players with the most wealth out of all the servers, or you were just ignorant of the Doctor population on the server. I'm guessing you never played a Master Doctor or you would know how much money you could make by buffing. Give the reader's some credit to believe that there were more than 5 whole doctors buffing for an entire server at any point in time. Maybe there were. But travelling to Coronet only to find mass ques, then on to Dant MO only to find more ques, then back to Coronet - wait 10mins for the shuttle - then to Theed to finally get a buff is alot of time spent running around. I play a game to have fun and escape that sort of thing. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` If you were doing PvE, you could get by without having a buff if you were in a big enough group, which I did in the beginning. Eventually tho, people got better at crafting greater buffs and people found they didn't need a group to do anything. So, it ended up no one wanted to group, and if they did it was for a solo-group which meant you HAD to have a buff for combat.I want you to re-read what you just wrote and think about it. What does it tell you when no one prefers to group? IT MEANS NO ONE PREFERS TO GROUP! This game wasn't Everquest. It was this ability, to be able to play alone if you wanted to that made it enjoyable and viable to many many people. Forced grouping is about as appealing as forced PvP, or forced anything. Sure, soloing everyday stuff, but soloing some of the highend content isn't right. ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Only in you're opinion. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` It's an MMO afterall. Many many people enjoy grouping with other people to accomplish a task, and not just for the sake of grouping. I think the balance they have now is just right. ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` What about the people who didn't think that way? Oh well, too bad, working as intended? Soloing isn't all out dead... ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` It could take up to an hour sometimes to get fully buffed and ready to actually go do stuff, and when I usually only have 2-3 hours during the day to play it left little time to do anything. During my prime time (I live in NZ for those that don't know, my afternoon is your primetime) it was hard to find docs to buff you, even buff bots would be scarce (especially during my winter when I usually couldn't get on until after server reset which usued to be daily affair)Again, roll a doctor toon. And if you say you didn't want to play a doctor, well then too bad. YOu must decide, do you want buffs or do you want to find the location of an AFK buffbot. And dont tell me there wasn't any on your server. There were lots on all servers. kthxbye. Yes, I should have been a doctor so I could have actually played the game when ever I wanted. Just to remind you, I said most times at night I played after server reset. I'm not sure if you remember but when the server restarts everyone is kicked off, including buffbots. People needed to relog back in and start their buffbots again for me to be able to use them. Buffbots didn't generally start to re-appear until many hours after the server had come back up. ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Cry more about the non-availablility of Doctors. ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Originally posted by kefkah Not to go off topic but when did we start posting tapestries?
I hate those rainbow posts. I already read the post 2 times before, why do I need to see it NOW WITH MORE COLORS!
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
IMHO... there was nothing "wrong" with the released version of the game.
Yes there were bugs and some balancing that was needed but PvP was not the only part of the game ... there was much more to it. All in all it was VERY playable and VERY enjoyable. The best game I have played in 15 years of gaming.
Jedi didn't ruin the game in any way. I found that people that complained about Jedi didn't want to put in the time to be a jedi themselves and resented that someone was stronger than they were. Hence all the complaints and nerfs for all the other professions. Jedi HAD to be the strongest class ... after all they were at the top of the food chain.
Sago Mactow Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet 6/26/03 - 1/26/06 Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect DFR Councilman Tarq Server
Originally posted by Sago I found that people that complained about Jedi didn't want to put in the time to be a jedi themselves and resented that someone was stronger than they were. Hence all the complaints and nerfs for all the other professions. Jedi HAD to be the strongest class ... after all they were at the top of the food chain.
That's where I disagree. Jedi didn't NEED to be an alpha class. There were plenty of people who offed Jedi in not only Episode 3 but 2 as well. Jango killed one in 3 shots. Jedis wouldn't have pissed and moaned for being on about the same level as an MBH or a Master Swordsman.. if it weren't for XP loss upon death.
EVERYTHING Jedi bitched about hinged on XP loss. That, and what was broken about Jedi (broken specials.. FPS... etc). NOBODY with a sane mind bitched "WE'RE NOT TEH UBAR".
I never wanted a glowstick. I only wanted a blaster at my side, and a YT-1300 bearthed nearby. To think that EVERYONE wanted it is faulty... especially when over 30k people requested a non-jedi server. Others just enjoyed hunting them.. especially with the SaberTEF (NO Jedi ever beat me as a swordsman.. BH, yes)
They made Jedi UBER. That killed PVP, PERIOD. Thus killing the GCW, Thus killing the game. They made the game become "if you weren't Jedi you are nothing". Now the game is nothing.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
That's where I disagree. Jedi didn't NEED to be an alpha class. There were plenty of people who offed Jedi in not only Episode 3 but 2 as well. Jango killed one in 3 shots. Jedis wouldn't have pissed and moaned for being on about the same level as an MBH or a Master Swordsman.. if it weren't for XP loss upon death. EVERYTHING Jedi bitched about hinged on XP loss. That, and what was broken about Jedi (broken specials.. FPS... etc). NOBODY with a sane mind bitched "WE'RE NOT TEH UBAR". I never wanted a glowstick. I only wanted a blaster at my side, and a YT-1300 bearthed nearby. To think that EVERYONE wanted it is faulty... especially when over 30k people requested a non-jedi server. Others just enjoyed hunting them.. especially with the SaberTEF (NO Jedi ever beat me as a swordsman.. BH, yes) They made Jedi UBER. That killed PVP, PERIOD. Thus killing the GCW, Thus killing the game. They made the game become "if you weren't Jedi you are nothing". Now the game is nothing.
I am not saying that Jedi needed to be as strong as 10 people or even 3 for that matter. Jedi needed to be at least 1 and a half times as strong as any other profession, especially BH because of the amount of xp loss they had. Jedi needed to be hunted in the game and killed as well. But a fully templated jedi should always win against any other toon (1v1) that is fully templated in any other profession. I had as many as 3 BHs after me at one time. Tho that occured only once, I did have 2 BHs after me at the same time on many occasions. A jedi should not be able to beat 2 fully templated toons of any profession at one time. However, the Jedis defenses should also be strong enough to make it a REAL good fight.
Remember SWG was an MMO, an MMO means it is based on group events and not 1v1 play. When groups of people fought BOTH sides are going to have jedi and the Jedi will be targeted first on both sides. Jedi usually fought each other first when both sides had Jedi also.
As far as an era goes.... this is a game, I could care less about an era. Star Wars without Jedi is like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich without the jelly. It just won't be the same.
When the NGE was forced upon us EVERYONE became a Jedi ... Jedi were EVERYWHERE. so i guess most people wanted a Jedi toon.
As far as the numbers of Jedi goes, that could have been controlled VERY easily by SOE and LA if they had half a brain. A simple combination of everything ..... like first completing all the events that got people "glowy", then Holo grinding but make it so that you can only use one Holocron every month and they needed a minimum of 8 or whatever professions they needed to master, then they could have added in the village. Then once they begin grinding jedi they could have made it easier to become "visible" and then a BH comes and kills you while you are grinding jedi and you lose xp. Then once you are a Jedi there could have been a death penalty that if you are killed so many times in a certain time period you go back to the beginning of your Jedi grinding. Once you becoome a Knight then it is more deaths that is needed. When you are Guardian then even more deaths, and so on.
These are just quick ideas off the top of my head. But my point is that "Jedi" wasn't a problem. It was SOE's and LA's lack of vision and lack of ability to resolve issues that failed this game, as well as any percieved "Jedi problem".
If Smedleys job opens up I am applying LOLOL.
One more thing.... this is Star Wars.... people should expect to see Jedi or they need to go play Star Trek. Ones personal desire NOT to have a "glow stick" should not impose on others that do want one. Otherwise maybe they should go play Star Trek if it bothers them that much to see Jedi.
Sago Mactow Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet 6/26/03 - 1/26/06 Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect DFR Councilman Tarq Server
Originally posted by Slickinfinit I put a huge portion of the blame for messing SWG up on the crybaby's who day after day complained how "SWG is to hard", "Only players with UBER gear have fun", "Its all dot wars" and my favorite "I hate being killed after I teff". I seen tons of post saying how SOE dosnt listen well apparently they did and they listened to the wrong whiners. I cant understand how a person who plays mmo's and was in SWG pre-cu didnt see that is was the most complex system any mmo ever had. Instead of working with it and tweaking it over the last few years they did radical overhauls and pissed off every player who ever invested time in thier characters. Why did they have to change the best game I ever played into the worst? Just to see if u could lol, seriously though what was bad about the PRE-CU???? Everything had a counter to everything pre-cu.
Quit falling for SOE's spin. The ONLY ones I have ever heard claim the players thought it was hard was the LEC and SOE marketting departments. Pre-CU everyone felt the game was excessively EASY because you could max out a template in about 2 weeks.
SWG's system was not complex, it was just robust. Quit listening to Torres and Smedley try to convice everyone that the NGE is what everyone wanted so they could justify cramming it in.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Comments
I didn't dislike pre-cu, let me get this straight, you didn't dislike pre-cu
I definetly have some great game memories from that period and it's what got me hooked on the game
. BUT it had its many frustrations and was not the happy story many make it out to be. I was a Pistoleer pre-cu, out of all the specials we had, only 2 or 3 actually worked. HEre is the major flaw with your attitude towards the game. Oddly enough, it seemed Pistoleers whined incessantly. Don't like the way Pistoleer is treating you? REROLL! Here is the classic point I just made in my post. Your Pistoleer wasn't up to snuff in your opinion. So what did you do? YOu stayed a Pistoleer like a moron and just whined and whined and whined. Why was it so important to be a Pistoleer? WAs it worth a poor play experiance? Surely you recognize there were other viable combat professions right? OR did you just want to whine and complain until you got your way like a baby?
Publish after publish it was all the same professions getting fixes and in my opinion it turned into a power trip between the Jedi and BH's on who could get the most love in each publish . I can just feel the jealousy in your words through the screen. NOt that I will deny that what you say is true, but it speaks to the kind of player you were that they weren't fixing you personally to where you thought it ought to be.
PvP revolved around having a CM in your group and if your side didn't have one then you were pretty much screwed. Here again, OMG CM is too much! They are much more powerful than me! NERF! NERF! NERF! Because everyone knows that Combat Medics were simply INVINCIBLE. Right?
The best weapons were too easy to come across for those of us that had the credits and too hard for those that were newish to the game or just didn't have the time to spend hunting for credits. That's not to say I agree with the idea of everyone being able to loot uber weapons, thats taken it to the other extreme.Well, its too late now. Thanks for complaining that things were too hard. Satisfied now? I know you say it's too much on here, but perhaps had you thought before you spoke sooner, you would have realized the fallacy of having these uber loot weapons. I take it, you never played the crafting side of the game? Way to go.
Then there were buffs, a love-hate relationship. Great in that they did offer a way to meet new people and just hang out and chat about your experiences but bad in that anything in game became dependent on them and they were somewhat of a time sink.HEre we go again with another buff whine. If you didn't like having to wait for a buff, why didn't you roll a doctor toon? And by the way, anyone who complains they have to wait for buffs, was not very involved or knowledgable of the game. On my old server Kauri, which always was a very small server, there were no less than 4 Master Doctors buffing at the Dantooine Mining Outpost 24/7. Give me a break.
If you were doing PvE, you could get by without having a buff if you were in a big enough group, which I did in the beginning. Eventually tho, people got better at crafting greater buffs and people found they didn't need a group to do anything. So, it ended up no one wanted to group, and if they did it was for a solo-group which meant you HAD to have a buff for combat.I want you to re-read what you just wrote and think about it. What does it tell you when no one prefers to group? IT MEANS NO ONE PREFERS TO GROUP! This game wasn't Everquest. It was this ability, to be able to play alone if you wanted to that made it enjoyable and viable to many many people. Forced grouping is about as appealing as forced PvP, or forced anything.
It could take up to an hour sometimes to get fully buffed and ready to actually go do stuff, and when I usually only have 2-3 hours during the day to play it left little time to do anything. During my prime time (I live in NZ for those that don't know, my afternoon is your primetime) it was hard to find docs to buff you, even buff bots would be scarce (especially during my winter when I usually couldn't get on until after server reset which usued to be daily affair)Again, roll a doctor toon. And if you say you didn't want to play a doctor, well then too bad. YOu must decide, do you want buffs or do you want to find the location of an AFK buffbot. And dont tell me there wasn't any on your server. There were lots on all servers. kthxbye.
I see what could be good posts with decent points being lost because the posters start posturing like 14-year old FPS'ers on an 8-hour Jolt binge. Calm down and make your point without slinging insults, the only one you'll make look better is yourself.
Now, I don't know about the other people claiming it's "too hard," but what I'm talking about is that it lacked accessibility for the average Star Wars fan who saw the game on the shelf and decided to pick it up. It was never a case of, "Oh man, can I figure this out?" but more a case of, "Is this worth figuring out?"
I would guess the bulk of people who are saying that it was a breeze to get into are people with some, if not a lot, of MMO experience before they picked up SWG. That's fine, but remember that the bulk of people trying this game out for the first time wanted to because it's a Star Wars game, and those are mostly action/console. Pre-CU SWG was a great game designed for people who were into MMOs, the real problem with it was that it was marketed to people who were into Star Wars instead. And that's not to say the Star Wars market is dumb, they just have different expectations. I'm a member of Mensa (IQ around 142), and my reaction when playing this game the first time was, "Not enough Star Wars fun to be worth figuring out." (And my opinion changed as my experience and interest with MMOs grew, I did feel it was "enough MMO fun to figure out." And it wasn't difficult to figure out at all after I knew what the particular genre expects of me.)
And something to consider, I think it's more logical to assume stagnant subscription numbers are to blame for the CUNGE game changes rather than a rabble of "their toon is better than mine" forum whiners. They're annoying, but blaming them is just looking for an easy scapegoat.
Just an opinion,
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
they disliked it cause they were crybabies and couldn't take me pwning them with my uber shiz like my nym's vibroknucklers and good armor and every type of food & drink and buff....damn that was fun.....CRYBABIES SUCKKKKKK!1111!11111!!!!
TKM // trickshot // medic 2440 // rest fencer FTW!1!1!!1111!!!!
Being complex is what made it great. If you had a brain and common sense and had the good sense to allly with the right people it was incredible. There were lots of people who didn't get it and I taught alot of people the finer points of the game, some got it, some didn't...the ones that didn't were the n00b feast!11
My original post to this thread got to be one of my long winded ones and frankly, that is putting too much effort into a game that is dying a slow and mutilated death as it incurs sweeping system changes, personnel changes and is a testbed for future mmorpgs by sony. Rather, let me summarize the best I can about the PreCU era.
The system was complex and BEFORE uber Doc buffs - you were terribly human. While I loved that aspect because it induces intelligent play and true fear for obscene combat odds - it wasn't what the vocal wanted. Soloing is a staple of the mmorpg existance and unless you had your strategies down - many of the deeper aspects of the game were just too deadly. To counter this - they invented as a quick fix - the uber doc buff. A relatively game breaking invention that would be the equivalent of dropping the Hulk into your hometown.
How should it have been fixed? Content. Working solobased content. Players had tons of great ideas on how to do it. Threads were written but ignored. I think I can easily say that few would argue that there wasn't all that much to do in quest form after the theme parks and the list of quests you could complete in 2 weeks time (providing they were working and yes I went to all the sites to find them).
SOE for some reason seemed to believe that people would continue to play for years if they tinkered with vocal populated professions and saw the Star Wars logo on their screen. The Vette and DWB were added, true, but they were heavily group oriented. Two new quests do not a renewal make.
What should have been done was have a team for new content (QUESTS - immersive, rewarding and replayable) and also sent a team to work on the unfinished professions and bugs. Yet, they ignored a list of bugs that ran on a multiple page thread and kept promising broken professions that they would have a revamp. God, I hate that word almost as much as Star Warsy.
Want to feel like you are in Star Wars? Put us in space outside of JTL. Vette was instanced and supposedly space based but all it felt like was a lair crawl. Get creative. Like that one quest involving those flowers and blowing up bases. Whoever did that had to have been fired for actually getting it right.
In the end, SOE ceased to work on it by deciding to throw the baby out with the bathwater and concentrate on a new system. Putting a new engine into a Pinto body isn't going to do much. Perhaps they thought the expansions were where the quests belonged so that they could derive more profit from their efforts...who knows but in the end - they made the wrong choice in my opinion. Too late to go back now and there is no way in hell that I will go back to playing a simplified version of the game. It would be like revisiting a brilliant friend who had been afflicted with alzheimers. Too painful to bear.
I am so sick of hearing about the lack of content. If I hear that one more time I am going to scream.
First off it didn't need any content. I remember the great trek's out to the Tusken fort to see if we could own it. Sitting up on the plateau waiting for others to join, shooting the breeze. Talking about whether jedi was a myth and such. We made our own content.
The professions were the content in my opinion. That was half the fun, figuring out what to do for each one.
I played EQ2, a game with "great content". Here is how that game worked: "Want to join us? Sure. We need to do this mission, ok? Sure. Ok, we have finished the mission we needed and are taking off, you need to find another group to help you with your mission." That happened to me so often that when I hit level 20 and you needed "content" to progress I quit.
There was a lot of content in SWG. The problem is we all quit.
There are only 10 types of people in this world, those that understand binary and those that don't
You can be sick of hearing it - I was sick of living without it. Those quest terminals were content - they were milk runs and mindless at that. Ask me about a quest save for the Imperial related. Go on - try me. I did them all. And it took less than two weeks. I had a large Naboo house filled with every quest related item I could grab but in the end - there was nothing game or character related to do. The system was great, the community was without equal - they failed us on adding content to the game and fixing bugs.
AV-21s are not content. Tracks are not content. New weapons, animations or abilities are not content. Give me a place to go, some people to see, some obstacles to face. DO NOT send me to the middle of a freaking plain and tell me at such and such location - I get a badge.
I'm sorry, Caine, but SWG DID need more content. Missions, quests and errands with a little depth and involvement rather than the classic every-game-gets-this-wrong mistaking forced-teaming (or harder) for more challenging and engaging.
Not forced, stilted, linear "you have to do this" quests but varied, interesting and rewarding quests where the reward of actually DOING them was as much fun as the cash or prizes payoff for doing each one in the first place.
Seasonal and holiday fun that consisted of more than some lame gift to stuff into your house to gather virtual dust or worse vanish on the next publish or patch.
Consistant and unbugged expansions and upgrades on lootable craftables that can either be assembled by your buddy the artisan and sometimes on your very own with a little help from the junk vendor. They COULD do that because there was a little bit of that in there for a time. Just far too little of it.
Even Anarchy Online (produced by a tiny, fledgeling european company) boasted more ingame content than SWG and it was older and running on far less subscription money than SWG. But then, FunCom, while bumbling, inexperienced and goofy as they were back then, always seemed to have the passion for their game and their customers that SOE boasts they have but always (and to this day) proved they lack -- which is pathetic, considering that SOE is older, more experienced, and far more heavily backed by their parental megacorp.
Pre-CU was the brilliant foundation for a game that SHOULD have made EQ look like pong. But they never bothered to finish it and never moved forward in introducing the actual content that the foundation seemed to promise. It was groundbreaking, but no one bothered building on the fantastic foundation. They just left it there and poked at it till they broke it, then paved it over, started building something more mundane and less cool...before abandoning THAT and paving the whole thing over again and putting in the parkinglot of mmos: nge.
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Kote lo'shebs'ul narit
YIKES! Doublepost.
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Kote lo'shebs'ul narit
Pre-CU & CU were both good with some problems. For the most part they were good though.
Breaking the Pre-CU problems down to their core issues:
Yes there were some class balance issues but that's true of every iteration of the game (Pre CU, CU, NGE, all of them have balance issues). But at the core the above 4 bullets cover the biggest problems with Pre-CU.
CU also introduced problems of it's own:
Biggest complaints about NGE:
Those appear to be the biggest bad points of the various iterations of SWG.
Now my stance on how to properly fix SWG would be:
That's what I'd do to fix SWG and make it into the complex and original sandbox it once was while adding all the things that CU and NGE did RIGHT.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
I found pre-CU to be pretty terrible, in terms of design. There were certainly aspects of it that I liked, but overall I felt the CU was an improvement to a system that never got off the ground.
The first problem with the pre-CU was the buff lines. You had to buff to wear armor. And the armor that you had to buff to wear was 9 times out of 10, Composite armor. In a game that offered such diversity in terms of looks as SWG did, making everyone wear the same armor (and NEEDING to buff to wear it) was too convoluted. You had to pay to wait in line to play the game, and that wasn't right.
The second problem was the overemphasis some classes recieved for combat, namely TKM. The big joke about the class system of SWG early on was that the game should have been called "Big Game Hunter: Kung Fu Master". Every group I was in, some Bruce Lee wannabe would be standing in place fighting some stormtrooper for 5 minutes talking about how "easy" the game was.
The third problem, and this is with SWG overall and it doesn't matter pre-CU, post-CU, NGE, is that there were so many rare quest-only items put in later that item decay really messed you up. If you're a Jedi and you lose your lightsaber, what then?
Now, were these problems that could have been fixed in the Pre-CU system? No. These weren't just "tweaks". These were symptoms of a fundamental problem. The fundamental problem was that your hitpoints didn't naturally increase as you fought higher level mobs, who had their HAM increased. Thus, you NEEDED buffs and you NEEDED Composite armor. The #1 thing the CU did was give you a natural buff appropriate to your level so you didn't need to stand in line to play the game.
No more buff lines, no more cloned armor, and combat professions were re-established to give ranged a greater emphasis over melee.
My only real problem with the CU, which was a necessary fix regardless of what new system they put in, was the way they rushed it out and implemented it after teasing that they had "something" for all of 2004. The CU was something that should have been done ASAP, but only with the greatest care. It's obvious SOE had NOTHING in 2004 after teasing us about it and that we waited almost 2 years for this new system.
The only thing pre-CU had going for it was that it was new. It was new, it was a fresh new game in a fresh new Galaxy and the community was strong. I had better times pre-CU than I did post-CU, but that had nothing to do with the system. It had to do with the energy the community had and the discovery of new friends and new adventures in familiar places online.
EVERYONE I know who left pre-cu said "LACK OF CONTENT"
Post CU said "BAD GAMEPLAY.. missed the pre-cu engine"
Post nge.. "What the hell did $OE do to this game!?!?!?!"
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I didn't dislike pre-cu,let me get this straight, you didn't dislike pre-cu
I definetly have some great game memories from that period and it's what got me hooked on the game
. BUT it had its many frustrations and was not the happy story many make it out to be. I was a Pistoleer pre-cu, out of all the specials we had, only 2 or 3 actually worked. HEre is the major flaw with your attitude towards the game. Oddly enough, it seemed Pistoleers whined incessantly. Don't like the way Pistoleer is treating you? REROLL! Here is the classic point I just made in my post. Your Pistoleer wasn't up to snuff in your opinion. So what did you do? YOu stayed a Pistoleer like a moron and just whined and whined and whined. Why was it so important to be a Pistoleer? WAs it worth a poor play experiance? Surely you recognize there were other viable combat professions right? OR did you just want to whine and complain until you got your way like a baby?
Heh, so I should have joined everyone else and been like them? Hmm, I thought a popular complaint from people was that there is no uniqueness in the NGE yet you point out a flaw to that argument. There were only a few combinations that worked well, and those were the most played combinations. I never whined on the forums about Pistoleer being broken, and if you consider a consolidated bug thread on the Pistoleer forum whining then I'm guessing you never looked at the Jedi forum
Publish after publish it was all the same professions getting fixes and in my opinion it turned into a power trip between the Jedi and BH's on who could get the most love in each publish . I can just feel the jealousy in your words through the screen. NOt that I will deny that what you say is true, but it speaks to the kind of player you were that they weren't fixing you personally to where you thought it ought to be.
Call it what you want, but at the end of the day there were more professions then just Jedi and BH and they all needed fixes. However, they never recieved them. I had no desire to be a Jedi.
PvP revolved around having a CM in your group and if your side didn't have one then you were pretty much screwed. Here again, OMG CM is too much! They are much more powerful than me! NERF! NERF! NERF! Because everyone knows that Combat Medics were simply INVINCIBLE. Right?
Heh, I was a CM/Pistoleer so I know how strong they were first hand. Dominating battles is only fun for so long...
The best weapons were too easy to come across for those of us that had the credits and too hard for those that were newish to the game or just didn't have the time to spend hunting for credits. That's not to say I agree with the idea of everyone being able to loot uber weapons, thats taken it to the other extreme.Well, its too late now. Thanks for complaining that things were too hard. Satisfied now? I know you say it's too much on here, but perhaps had you thought before you spoke sooner, you would have realized the fallacy of having these uber loot weapons. I take it, you never played the crafting side of the game? Way to go.
Nope, never complained about it so don't blame me for it :P I was (and still am) a Weaponsmith on my alt.
Then there were buffs, a love-hate relationship. Great in that they did offer a way to meet new people and just hang out and chat about your experiences but bad in that anything in game became dependent on them and they were somewhat of a time sink.HEre we go again with another buff whine. If you didn't like having to wait for a buff, why didn't you roll a doctor toon? And by the way, anyone who complains they have to wait for buffs, was not very involved or knowledgable of the game. On my old server Kauri, which always was a very small server, there were no less than 4 Master Doctors buffing at the Dantooine Mining Outpost 24/7. Give me a break.
Try Chilastra at prime-time. You have nearly the entire server population wanting buffs from 5 Docs. I don't think I need to say more.
If you were doing PvE, you could get by without having a buff if you were in a big enough group, which I did in the beginning. Eventually tho, people got better at crafting greater buffs and people found they didn't need a group to do anything. So, it ended up no one wanted to group, and if they did it was for a solo-group which meant you HAD to have a buff for combat.I want you to re-read what you just wrote and think about it. What does it tell you when no one prefers to group? IT MEANS NO ONE PREFERS TO GROUP! This game wasn't Everquest. It was this ability, to be able to play alone if you wanted to that made it enjoyable and viable to many many people. Forced grouping is about as appealing as forced PvP, or forced anything.
Sure, soloing everyday stuff, but soloing some of the highend content isn't right. It's an MMO afterall. Many many people enjoy grouping with other people to accomplish a task, and not just for the sake of grouping. I think the balance they have now is just right.
It could take up to an hour sometimes to get fully buffed and ready to actually go do stuff, and when I usually only have 2-3 hours during the day to play it left little time to do anything. During my prime time (I live in NZ for those that don't know, my afternoon is your primetime) it was hard to find docs to buff you, even buff bots would be scarce (especially during my winter when I usually couldn't get on until after server reset which usued to be daily affair)Again, roll a doctor toon. And if you say you didn't want to play a doctor, well then too bad. YOu must decide, do you want buffs or do you want to find the location of an AFK buffbot. And dont tell me there wasn't any on your server. There were lots on all servers. kthxbye.
Yes, I should have been a doctor so I could have actually played the game when ever I wanted. Just to remind you, I said most times at night I played after server reset. I'm not sure if you remember but when the server restarts everyone is kicked off, including buffbots. People needed to relog back in and start their buffbots again for me to be able to use them. Buffbots didn't generally start to re-appear until many hours after the server had come back up.
The things that were wrong with SWG pre-CU were:
1. The need for buffs with armor and the time and money wasted trying to find a doc or get to the front of a line.
2. Unbalanced proffesions, not just things like carbineer which you were immpressed when you saw one, but proffesions that got NO love like Ranger and you thought you had saw a unicorn because the grind was crazy and they werent compensated with the proper skills.
3. Bugs and Lag. My missions used to dissapear and lag at the MO and Theed was nuts.
4. The lack of grouping other than solo groups, or very hard missions like the VET.
5. Power Templates where you stack defense or dodge making you almost impossible to kill.
6. Melee was more powerfull than range, I was sick of TKM's.
7. Dizzy KD and DOT PVP which required little skill or tactics. Dizzy someone and knock them down as a TKM and beat them down while they are on the ground.
But, Guess what? I loved the game anyway and I thought they should have slowly worked their way through each proffesion balancing them along the way, but instead they pushed out the combat upgrade which killed my gaming experience because I gave up my Master Shipwright which cost me about 15 million credits to grind to be combat level 80 so I could participate in combat without getting my ass whooped. I had a great Master Rifleman/Master Artisan/Master Shipwright avatar that was gone. The NGE just ruined every proffesion I wanted to be and the game I was playing was done. The NGE is SWG2, because its nowhere near the game I used to play.
Don't Hate . . . . . . . Just Don't Do it.
Sorry Double post
Don't Hate . . . . . . . Just Don't Do it.
bah
I hate those rainbow posts. I already read the post 2 times before, why do I need to see it NOW WITH MORE COLORS!
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Obraik started it!
IMHO... there was nothing "wrong" with the released version of the game.
Yes there were bugs and some balancing that was needed but PvP was not the only part of the game ... there was much more to it. All in all it was VERY playable and VERY enjoyable. The best game I have played in 15 years of gaming.
Jedi didn't ruin the game in any way. I found that people that complained about Jedi didn't want to put in the time to be a jedi themselves and resented that someone was stronger than they were. Hence all the complaints and nerfs for all the other professions. Jedi HAD to be the strongest class ... after all they were at the top of the food chain.
Sago Mactow
Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet
6/26/03 - 1/26/06
Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect
DFR Councilman
Tarq Server
That's where I disagree. Jedi didn't NEED to be an alpha class. There were plenty of people who offed Jedi in not only Episode 3 but 2 as well. Jango killed one in 3 shots. Jedis wouldn't have pissed and moaned for being on about the same level as an MBH or a Master Swordsman.. if it weren't for XP loss upon death.
EVERYTHING Jedi bitched about hinged on XP loss. That, and what was broken about Jedi (broken specials.. FPS... etc). NOBODY with a sane mind bitched "WE'RE NOT TEH UBAR".
I never wanted a glowstick. I only wanted a blaster at my side, and a YT-1300 bearthed nearby. To think that EVERYONE wanted it is faulty... especially when over 30k people requested a non-jedi server. Others just enjoyed hunting them.. especially with the SaberTEF (NO Jedi ever beat me as a swordsman.. BH, yes)
They made Jedi UBER. That killed PVP, PERIOD. Thus killing the GCW, Thus killing the game. They made the game become "if you weren't Jedi you are nothing". Now the game is nothing.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I am not saying that Jedi needed to be as strong as 10 people or even 3 for that matter. Jedi needed to be at least 1 and a half times as strong as any other profession, especially BH because of the amount of xp loss they had. Jedi needed to be hunted in the game and killed as well. But a fully templated jedi should always win against any other toon (1v1) that is fully templated in any other profession. I had as many as 3 BHs after me at one time. Tho that occured only once, I did have 2 BHs after me at the same time on many occasions. A jedi should not be able to beat 2 fully templated toons of any profession at one time. However, the Jedis defenses should also be strong enough to make it a REAL good fight.
Remember SWG was an MMO, an MMO means it is based on group events and not 1v1 play. When groups of people fought BOTH sides are going to have jedi and the Jedi will be targeted first on both sides. Jedi usually fought each other first when both sides had Jedi also.
As far as an era goes.... this is a game, I could care less about an era. Star Wars without Jedi is like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich without the jelly. It just won't be the same.
When the NGE was forced upon us EVERYONE became a Jedi ... Jedi were EVERYWHERE. so i guess most people wanted a Jedi toon.
As far as the numbers of Jedi goes, that could have been controlled VERY easily by SOE and LA if they had half a brain. A simple combination of everything ..... like first completing all the events that got people "glowy", then Holo grinding but make it so that you can only use one Holocron every month and they needed a minimum of 8 or whatever professions they needed to master, then they could have added in the village. Then once they begin grinding jedi they could have made it easier to become "visible" and then a BH comes and kills you while you are grinding jedi and you lose xp. Then once you are a Jedi there could have been a death penalty that if you are killed so many times in a certain time period you go back to the beginning of your Jedi grinding. Once you becoome a Knight then it is more deaths that is needed. When you are Guardian then even more deaths, and so on.
These are just quick ideas off the top of my head. But my point is that "Jedi" wasn't a problem. It was SOE's and LA's lack of vision and lack of ability to resolve issues that failed this game, as well as any percieved "Jedi problem".
If Smedleys job opens up I am applying LOLOL.
One more thing.... this is Star Wars.... people should expect to see Jedi or they need to go play Star Trek. Ones personal desire NOT to have a "glow stick" should not impose on others that do want one. Otherwise maybe they should go play Star Trek if it bothers them that much to see Jedi.
Sago Mactow
Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet
6/26/03 - 1/26/06
Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect
DFR Councilman
Tarq Server
Quit falling for SOE's spin. The ONLY ones I have ever heard claim the players thought it was hard was the LEC and SOE marketting departments. Pre-CU everyone felt the game was excessively EASY because you could max out a template in about 2 weeks.
SWG's system was not complex, it was just robust. Quit listening to Torres and Smedley try to convice everyone that the NGE is what everyone wanted so they could justify cramming it in.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World