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BlackWhysper
Member Posts: 113
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BlackWhysper
Member Posts: 113
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Yeah that's why I fell in love with it.
And then why I decided to apply as a GM.
I'm not sure which I'll like more, playing it or GMing it.
It'll probably be a big combination of both.
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
Hero's Journey Official Site
Hero's Hall
First of all I just want to point out that my Monk in EQ was pretty much as effective without his gear as with it. This was original EQ before the complete bastardization of the class that was caused by Kunark though so I realize most people never experieneced that.
Second, though I haven't really looked at the item/gear systems - to busy building interesting environements for players to die...err I mean play in - I do feel that I have to point out that what has been said isn't that items/gear won't make you more effective but that what that gear looks like doesn't matter. The idea is that you should be able to make your character look the way you want them to look. The barbarian in a kilt and painted chest weilding a big stick with a stone tied to the end can be just as powerful as the knight in full plate with an intricatly forged metal warhammer and both of them might be weaker than the lady that looks like a schoolteacher weilding nothing more than a book.
(NOTE: These are just character ideas, I don't know what kind of weapon models are planned or even currently available)
But we all know now what one of your fetishes appears to be.
/flees
GM Illuminatis
World Builder
Hero's Journey
But we all know now what one of your fetishes appears to be.
/flees
GM Illuminatis
World Builder
Hero's Journey
I'll second that fetish and defend Sisca to the end.
HJ-Royce
Simutronics Staff (GM)
http://www.play.net/hj/
[quote]Originally posted by HJ-SiscaThe barbarian in a kilt and painted chest weilding a big stick with a stone tied to the end can be just as powerful as the knight in full plate with an intricatly forged metal warhammer and both of them might be weaker than the lady that looks like a schoolteacher weilding nothing more than a book.[/b][/quote]
Okay, well, I can see the whole armor/clothing thing, but weapons too? I'm not sure if I understand this.
I mean, I'm all for looking however you want to look, but let's face it, a rock on a stick (or a book) shouldn't be as effective as a metal warhammer. I'll assume that there aren't actually any books, but the example seems to be telling me that there are no differences between any two weapons. Like, a spear and a dagger might look different, but they function identically.
Now, I can understand that this spear and that spear might be the same, but look totally different, but they shouldn't work the same way as a completely different weapon. I guess the rock on a stick example might make a certain amount of sense because both it and the warhammer would probably fall under the same category, but even so, I sure hope there aren't any joke weapons, because that's just plain goofy and immersion-breaking. "Hey, guys. I'm a nekkid scrawny kid with a stick! OMG 9999 damage in one hit!" There's "looking how you want to look," and then there's "erasing common sense." Hopefully, this game will draw in players who like their guys to look cool and not goofy/immersion-breaking.
So, now my questions...
You said that the items/gear will make us more effective, but you also said that we didn't have to wear anything more than a kilt. I think the knight in full plate is wearing a lot more than the half-naked barbarian, unless you count his war paint as clothing for some reason. If the way something looks won't affect us in any way, then (other than level, skills, etc.) what will?
When we get a new item, can we just change it to look like anything else (including invisible), or do we get gear with stats that doesn't show in addition to the clothing?
Is it more like in City of Heroes where our costumes/clothing aren't even items at all? Do we "unlock" new "costume options"? Can we just instantly put on a hat that was never in our inventory in the first place (<-- immersion-breaking)? Or do we obtain items/gear similarly to in other games (loot, buy, craft, etc.), but it's just that they're only for appearance?
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
"To date, games have made you chose your armor based on its skills rather than its look. Heros Journey lets you wear whatever you want and still effectively have it protect you. For example, you may dress as a pirate, a knight in shining armor or any other of the amazing combinations they offer. The frilly pirate shirt will act just as well as the armor for protection. Obviously, this sacrifices realism, but it ensures that players get to look how they want and still effectively play the game."
-Dana Massey, Live From E3, May 19, 2005
"... you can spend hours (if you like) dressing your character. We have a massive inventory of options with amazingly levels of detail. For example, decide on a style of coat, specify its color, add a pattern, maybe some trim, then even choose the precise buttons you want on it. Or start piecing together a full suit of armor, with each chunk of metal being up to you. Due to the way our technology works, we will continually added new clothing elements to the possibilities on an on-going basis. Already, the options are staggering."
-David Whatley, June 03, 2005
I can't find anything on the other two questions, but from what I understand (this isn't official) clothing will be considered items.. That's what I got from the interviews.. I feel like maybe the faq hasn't been updated recently? I could have sworn they said something about it.
I really can't answer otherwise because I don't really know anyway. I hate giving quotes for answers, but oh well.
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
Hero's Journey Official Site
Hero's Hall
________________________
Zee
Simutronics GameMaster
Hero's Journey - Quests Team
http://www.herosjourney.net
from what I've always understood weapons can be increased in strength and abilities.
That's all I know.
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
Hero's Journey Official Site
Hero's Hall
I certainly feel that items should make a difference, but not one of major significance...(Like in L2 for example). I like the idea of designing your clothes, weapons etc, but ...ahh i don't really know what i need to ask as i simply want to have a play on the game... Cant WAIT till its finished.. anyone,how do i really want to apply in order to try out the beta testing? Oh and any months forecasted for the release of this game yet?
- a very excited gamer!
Still, doesn't the same apply to armor, it seems really off to think that a guy with a painted chest would have just as much protection as one with a plate mail chest piece. It seems to kill the realism and the immersion.
It seems like a step backwards in combat realism, and a step forward in RP ability. I am not sure that the trade off will be well accepted. Then again, I could be very wrong. How do I size that charcter or monster up to determine if I have a chance in battle.
Seems the guy in the kilt, felted clogs, holding a butter knife could kill me in 1 shot with his awesome abilities while the guy with platemail an enormous sword, and bulging muscles I can woop with my bow and suction cup arrows.
*confused*
A bit of a paradox realy. Honestly its not persay that the plate armor is better then a painted chest. Its the persons ability to use what he has to defend himself.
Still, doesn't the same apply to armor, it seems really off to think that a guy with a painted chest would have just as much protection as one with a plate mail chest piece. It seems to kill the realism and the immersion.
It seems like a step backwards in combat realism, and a step forward in RP ability. I am not sure that the trade off will be well accepted. Then again, I could be very wrong. How do I size that charcter or monster up to determine if I have a chance in battle.
Seems the guy in the kilt, felted clogs, holding a butter knife could kill me in 1 shot with his awesome abilities while the guy with platemail an enormous sword, and bulging muscles I can woop with my bow and suction cup arrows.
*confused*
Keep in mind, in Hero's Journey, you the player are already a hero. You are not "PersonInPlateArmor#2345"
It's not about the items, it's about you and how you want your hero to look, and feel, and play.
You should have every right to go play on par with those your level, regardless of what you are wearing. That's what makes you unique.
If you "want" to look like everyone else, fine. make a "costume" that resembles others.
But most important, we just want you to be what you want to be. Why should we as developers "force" you to wear a specific item to compete with others?
I'll say it again, it's not about the items. It's about you.
Just make sure you enjoy doing it. I know I will.
HJ-Royce
Simutronics Staff (GM)
http://www.play.net/hj/
Well, that is an interesting perspective. I think I will go off in a corner and think on that for a while. They should have that plastered on all the in-house development walls, and on all of the GM's desktops.
I think you just made the best quote about Hero's Journey yet. The thing is it fits in EVERY context. Quite an interesting perspective. Will you be claiming that one?
On a side not to HJ-Royce's point, I think the question about sizing up an opponent still is open. Maybe it should be class based. I.E. A warrior would be able to size up your warrior type abilities, and a Gear-knight would be able to size up opponents gear-knight abilities.
Maybe I should be in the other topic.
Well, that is an interesting perspective. I think I will go off in a corner and think on that for a while. They should have that plastered on all the in-house development walls, and on all of the GM's desktops.
I think you just made the best quote about Hero's Journey yet. The thing is it fits in EVERY context. Quite an interesting perspective. Will you be claiming that one?
It's been one of the basic driving factors behind lots of the development in the game. Including quests.
I'm not the first to say it either.
HJ-Royce
Simutronics Staff (GM)
http://www.play.net/hj/
Ah realism.
Do you really want realism?
Just a couple of realistic points that spring to mind:
Plate Armor:
You can't run in plate armor. If you sit down you better have a squire or someone around to help you back up. Someone is going to have to help you buckle that stuff on so no taking it on or off at will. If you happen to land in water that's over your head your dead.
Archery:
A single archer that isn't well concealed is worthless. I'm no super hero but I could dodge an arrow from a long or short bow if I could see the archer. The reason the English longbowmen were so deadly was that they were accurate from a long range and they would stick 100's of them on a hill.
So do you really want realism or do you want a modified, more fun, version?
I'd rather have the more fun version and if that allows me to make my character look the way I want no matter if it's realistic or not then so be it.
And I'm sorry but the whole "It breaks immersion" argument - not just about this but about anything in any RPG - annoys me. Does it break immersion in your pen & paper RPG when someone says pass the pizza or the DM says roll to hit? If having people wear "unrealistic" clothing for their class breaks immersion for you doesn't the simple act of typing on a keyboard also break immersion? But that's a completely different rant for another time
I think some of those things could apply. I raelly doubt you could dodge an arrow, but seperate point. Should you run slower if you are carrying more weight? absolutely. Should encumbrence be a factor absolutely. Can you decide those factors are not impotant in game X? absolutely.
Now, on to immersion. There is a classic theory in Theatre that talks about the suspension of disbelief. For some people the suspension of disbelief is easy, for others, it is very difficult.
The fact that some great warrior can be wearing the latest style of lacy undies from Victoria's Secret and have the Uber super duper plate armor bonus is crazy. Why do I say it is crazy? Because it goes against the nature of everything you have been taught to this point in life. Because it goes against everything you have learned in almost every RPG, or MMORPG to date. I fear this will be difficult for everyone to understand and will cause people to be confused, upset, and basically not enjoy things.
I could obviously be very wrong. I can speak from my experience to date, and it all seems alien, and foreign. Could it be handled well, yes, I am sure it could. Will it take getting used to, yes. Will some people not like it immediately and give up on it, of course. Will some people love it, definitely.
If you look at the hard core role players, they will love it. They are not the majority of the market that is out there for MMORPGs though. I love the game to date, and just owuld like to see it be very successful. I guess my hope would be that the folks at Simutronics have thought about and discussed all of these things, and if they have not that they would take posts like this and think abou them, as well as thinking about the benefits and consequences of their decisions.
marc. (no disrespect intended, just discussion.)
I agree that there need to be limits - the whole thing of a warrior in lacy underwear is a bit silly but is it really any sillier than the chain mail bikini's most female warriors get in current MMO's? Most people don't seem to have a problem with those.
As for the barbarian in a kilt vs. the knight in armor just look at Braveheart. Was that immersion breaking?
The idea here is that you're creating a hero. If your idea of a warrior type hero is a knight in shining armor why should he be more powerful than my barbarian in a kilt just because of the outward appearance of his clothing?
I dunno. I think that GS4 gets it half right. You can train in wearing uber-fantastic armor, or you can wear leather and all-out train in dodging.
i think HJ just takes it a step further. Their logic is that if you are wearing plate armor, that doesn't mean that a crazy skilled chipmunk couldn't come along and peirce your armor and kill you with its claw. - I'd rather be able to make my character, and to be damned with, "At level 25 as a monk you have to be in the same komono that every other monk at level 25 is wearing. There are some lower quality options too, but to be uber, you have to be in this"
Its much better to customize your character the way YOU want him. MMORPG's are still RPG's. Just because there's 2000 other people playing with you doesn't mean you have to kill the RP aspect that simutronics games are renouned for.
Things like location damage (DR has your regular concussion damage typical for most MMOs), Lessed skill at picking because your "thought-net" is on - all those voices in your head make it so you can't concentrate. No straight, "/tell Valendros wassap"; you have to get on the thought net, and it doesn't go very far, in fact it is flat out negated in a lot of areas. When you are alone, you are ALONE.
About the most OOC thing in GS4 is server-wide death messages, which you can toggle. In their other games, almost EVERY OOC thing is togglable. And if you think about it so are these outfits. If you want to play a plate-clad paladin with a dual handed broadsword, go for it. If you want to do the same damage, but RP as a bare-chested farmer who was possessed by the spirit of "Koar, the god of power and might". You can do that too.
And, by the way. Have you ever tried you damnest but just not been able to put on that shiney, skin tight blue shirt because your "Pickup the ladies" skill is too low? I sure as hell have been able to wear whatever I want (much to my own distaste). So what's the point of having "uber plate mail of godliness" that's set at level 74. Why wouldn't a level 1 be able to put that on? Would he get as much out of wearing the plate as an experienced warrior that knows how to lean against certain strikes and blows from different angles so the weapon glances off instead of snapping the leather straps?
Skill > Equipment. And Equipment that you can't wear until a certain level just isn't logical in a RP environment. It is just what we're all used to. i'll get the argument "But but, thats why he can't wear it, is because he won't get enough out of it". If you were in the game, could you pick up that armor and put it on? You sure as hell could. Why can't your character?
Same goes for weapons: If Jet Li had half a rubber band, he could find a way to kill you with it.
Skill > Equipment.
Fun > Tideum
Why should the game be more standard? if Simu did everything you were used to, you'd play it for 5 minutes and be done, off to the next thing. This is different, this is what you want. This is updatable, changable, it rolls with the punches, if you don't like your frilly underwear tomorrow, you can get some nice big plate armor and a big-ole sword to put the manhood back into it. This is YOUR WORLD, and you are the hero.
Sisca and Valendros summed it up quite well and hit on everything I probably would have said. This dev journal expresses a lot of my feelings too. Check it out, Marc.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setview/features/loadFeature/480/gameID/174
Humility before Honor.
Nice forum. I have yet to see any childish arguments. People calling each other names and flat out saying each others ideas are dumb and pointless. What gives? Is it because it is too new and the rude people haven't found it yet? Okay so i will say it, you are all dumb and have pointless ideas.
Kidding.
All the posts have made good points. My take on this issue agrees in a lot of places with quite a few. I have always had a problem with the game worlds view on immersion and right or wrong in a Fantasy setting. Basically anything goes in the genre. If the author can think of it there is a way to work it into the world.
Magic can explain away any and all oddities. Flying mythical beasts. Are those real and immersive? Immersion in a Fantasy environment can not be judged by real world values. What is so hard to believe about a person having incredible abilities? Nothing, it is a given in a fantasy setting. you're supposed to have out of the ordinary skill sets. I like the Jet Li could find a way to kill you with half a rubberband comment
. It would take me at least two full rubberbands and a one slightly mushy ice cream cone. Jet Li wins.
In a magical world any number of reasons could explain why the highly trained martial fighter forgoes heavy cumbersome armor. Not wanting the hindrance of the bulky stuff or our hero's gods have forbidden him to wear the stuff because it causes rashes. Isn't this a MMORPG? What does RPG stand for? I personally love the idea of wearing whatever I want. Fate doesn't decide which chest or monster drops a great piece of armor. I can concentrate on having fun and looking around in the game. Doing interesting quests. Grouping with fun people and trying to figure out the coolest way to finish a quest that no one else has come up with yet. Better bragging rights than "look at my ominous black helmet of Frog Slaying". I would rather Let these kinds of things decide how powerful I am. Not my luck in finding a magic imbued piece of gear that I need to survive. That makes the item more powerful than I am and I won't stand for that. Or more like I never had a choice since this has been standard fare up to this point.
The point made that just because I carry a smaller weapon than you doesn't mean that I can't kill you with it before you kill me is a great point. Wow think of all the Fantasy novels you have read. Name one where at some point the hero or one of the many heroes of the story doesn't win in some situation where it appeared they had no chance.
You people are insane lol. I am pretty excited. I look forward to proving my worth as a brooding dark hero that kills with a mid sized fish. Fish can be very dangerous in my world. Man, the possibilities are endless.
Oh, and I will work at not rambling as much in my future posts. Please bear with me. I am new to this. This is the first game that has got me excited enough to actually make posts.
For that reason alone you should all buy this game.
Good point.
Certain games attract certain personality types. This can be verified by noting the childish arguments from the rude people ... over on the freaking DARKFALL board!
*Ahem* OK, sorry for the outburst, but overall, yes, I agree that the Hero's Journey community should be good one.
Looking forward to it.
(Those offsite GMs are real nice too.)
~ Ancient Membership ~
Aww, how sweet of you! We love our game communities, and we have a long history of talking to them about ongoing development. During my time with GS4, one of my most rewarding projects was creating and running a system that allowed player-run groups to have a lot of autonomy and also a lot of GM support in staging events and making their mark on the world. Working closely with these incredibly dedicated, talented, and generous players taught me a great deal about what makes a game community strong. I hope we can achieve the same level of personal involvement in Hero's Journey.
Mitra
Mitra, you bring up a subject that I have a pretty deep interest in. Based on your own experience, what are some elements that make a game community strong? Or should I start another Topic?
-- I need a nerf --
That's a big question! And one I too find interesting, due at least partly to my past study of anthropology. In virtual communities such as we are discussing, I think people feel most connected when they have a concrete way of contributing to the social experience. By helping out other players (which can take the form of sharing advice, gifting items, retelling lore, providing entertainment, etc.) people start to feel like an essential part of the community, and they develop ties to a number of other individuals. The connections become very personal - you are no longer that elf that hangs around outside the general store, you become Trevor, the rather amusing ranger with a penchant for redheads who knows where to find just about anything you could possibly need for potion-making.
So how do we get to this point where people have roles to fill in the community and others recognize them for their unique contributions? I don't have an absolute answer to that, just a few disjointed thoughts. From a mechanics standpoint, there should be important and useful things that players can do for one another which aren't too easily duplicated by an automated process. From a lore and background standpoint, there should be enough interesting information about the world and its cultures to provide stereotypes that people can play to and against, along with details to enrich their roleplay and mysteries to deepen it. And from a social standpoint, there need to be ways for players to form groups of their own and support for the ways in which they envision those groups interacting with the world. Finally, there should be ways in which players can make permanent marks on the world - it cannot have a Teflon surface. Making that mark may take time, effort, and luck, but just knowing it can happen will make all the difference.
But feel free to disagree with me on any of these points! I'd love to hear what thoughts you all have on the subject.
Mitra