Make it a Teflon surface so I can scratch the hell out of it with a fork! That'd be sweet...
Anyway, I totally agree with just about everything you just said, Mitra, and I find that odd. I mean, normally I agree with bits and pieces of what people say, but that was a very well done post. This is when I start withing there was a clapping emote...
I can't really add anything to what you've said. My characters(And I...) rarely find their niche, though, and as such, I often leave games feeling rather unsatisfied. It's possibly because I play with people who don't normally RP and end up making a lot of OOC jokes and comments. I mean, I'm not that good at RPing, even if I try... Wow, that's sad. Anyway, the point is: I've yet to really click with a game. Here's hoping I can click with Hero's Journey.
sorry sorry sorry. I did the dreaded "wall of text" thing
Originally posted by HJ-Mitra Based on your own experience, what are some elements that make a game community strong?
That's a big question! And one I too find interesting, due at least partly to my past study of anthropology. In virtual communities such as we are discussing, I think people feel most connected when they have a concrete way of contributing to the social experience. By helping out other players (which can take the form of sharing advice, gifting items, retelling lore, providing entertainment, etc.) people start to feel like an essential part of the community, and they develop ties to a number of other individuals. The connections become very personal - you are no longer that elf that hangs around outside the general store, you become Trevor, the rather amusing ranger with a penchant for redheads who knows where to find just about anything you could possibly need for potion-making.
So how do we get to this point where people have roles to fill in the community and others recognize them for their unique contributions? I don't have an absolute answer to that, just a few disjointed thoughts. From a mechanics standpoint, there should be important and useful things that players can do for one another which aren't too easily duplicated by an automated process. From a lore and background standpoint, there should be enough interesting information about the world and its cultures to provide stereotypes that people can play to and against, along with details to enrich their roleplay and mysteries to deepen it. And from a social standpoint, there need to be ways for players to form groups of their own and support for the ways in which they envision those groups interacting with the world. Finally, there should be ways in which players can make permanent marks on the world - it cannot have a Teflon surface. Making that mark may take time, effort, and luck, but just knowing it can happen will make all the difference.
But feel free to disagree with me on any of these points! I'd love to hear what thoughts you all have on the subject.
Mitra
*proceed with caution - nerd spasm is progress*
Oh wow. Honestly I was expecting a few fuzzy opinions based on your own experience, but the fact that you have approached the subject from an anthropological perspective is a breath of fresh air.
Just be thankful that you aren't within earshot or I'd be subjecting you to a minimum 45 minute rambling session while I referrence several case studies, news articles, and potential applications of Psychological type indicators regarding Virtual Communities.
Just last weekend my brother and I had a 2 hour conversation about the state of Virtual Communities as they relate to MMORPGs. We both have an interest in them and have been archiving relevant news, sociological and psychological studies. His background is in sociology. My understanding is less acredited but more experienced in the psychology of personality types and their inherent individual motivations.
More to the point, I think you are right on track regarding my initial question of what makes a game community strong. Meaningfull contributions to the social experience and feeling that your presence has value are indeed elements of a strong community. I almost wish you had given a few points that I'd like to disagree with as it would have easily motivated a continued conversation.
Off the top of my head the only thing I could think to add is - The sharing of salient experiences/adventures. I'd be tempted to think a while longer and try to toss in some other minor additions if the question you posed wasn't so much more challenging/interesting.
Your question: "So how do we get to this point where people have roles to fill in the community and others recognize them for their unique contributions?"
I think I twitched a few times when I read this. Good stuff. And I believe you are right that the ideas you gave are in the direction of that "absolute answer", but there are some important pieces missing.
And a word of caution before I continue. I will soon reveal myself to be a completely self serving information whore. I blame you for this It wouldn't have happend if you had not asked THE question, but seeing as how we've been working on an answer for months, I'd like to tweak that question just a bit.
"So how do we get to this point where people have roles to fill in the community - That Are Deeply Meaningful and Fulfilling To Them As An Individual - and others recognize them for their unique contributions?"
From what I've found, one of the biggest draws of an MMORPG is Purpose. In a virtual social environment (chat rooms, forums, myspace, aim, etc) the purpose usually is to just socialize/communicate with other people. Interpersonal dynamics can be explored here to seamingly no end, but for for now I will leave it somewhat simplified.
However, once we take those dynamics of virtual socializing and give them a deeper Purpose, (like Adventuring together in a virtual world) it takes the experience(s) to new levels. I can't help but cite a study that speaks directly to the power of our in-game identities here. http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/column_index.php?story=8280
I don't know how to make it a live link. Here's an excerpt from that article. "Understanding how such processes are related, and how the operate within game environments, could well become essential to future generations of gaming. Understand the basic psychology of the gamer and your game will be far stronger."
No worries, we're on it!
Also, relating to my statement earlier, I think its important to note that the term "adventure" can mean widely different things to different people. The common various "adventures" that people enjoy in MMORPGs have been documented by different studies, and peoples preferences/priorities tend to overlap a bit, making a clean and simple answer to THE question more difficult.
Thats not to say that defining and applying salient "adventures" is the ultimate answer, just an important part of it. . . (Geez, I'm rambling. sorry)
I'll move on to the - me being an information whore - part As stated earlier in this post, my brother and I archive news articles and relevant scientific data. This is to support and refine the methodology and process we been designing over the last several months.
I believe we are about 70% of the way to providing effective and conistent answers to that question. Notice I say answerS - the plural. If our ideas are proven correct, the solution to this problem will actually come not through 1 magical principle of game design, but rather through an intricate series of many targeted and carefully laid out questions, answers and methods of application. (Breaking a complicated problem into its CORRECT essential elements)
Also, we don't pretend to be reinventing the wheel or turning the MMORPG genre on its head with Revolutionary ideas. Many of the foundational concepts we are working from have come from our father who is a new york times, wall street journal, best selling author and our business partners, who are also best selling authors specializing in web presence (I forget which lists they made)
In fact, once completed, the work should simply seem evolutionary, while providing effective approaches to some long standing questions in the MMORPG genre.
So there you go. If our progress continues to the finish line, one day (hopefully soon) we'll be able get people much closer to that "absolute answer" than any developer has been before. And now I must sleep.
Ouch, my brain hurts...<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Great posts you guys
I guess my take on things is a little simpler, a great community to me is one where people form bonds, not necessarily with the whole community but at least with groups of people, in fact the best community I have enjoyed was a while back in AC2 - here we had a good guild who supported each other, would take time out to help - even breaking from quests (only in guild ones) to assist someone in trouble (and not always from our own guild), now while we were not a PvP uber guild we did take a role as guardians and assisted others in getting through the PvP areas when the gankers were out - and odd as it seemed even they added greatly to the game, it gave us the opportunity to shine and we became known..
Good times were had by all, there was this sort of good guy vs bad guy thing going in what most would call a carebear world
I'm also intested that the forum community was mentioned again, I've seem it said a couple of times now that this forum tends to discuss, even argue but so far never out and out flame and its refreshing, my guess is that because it spends so much time at the bottom of the top 10 here that it just isn't attracting the attention of the trolls
Currently Playing:GW2 Currently Following:Elder Scrolls Online Games in my wake:Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
Originally posted by xDivianaDRx "To date, games have made you chose your armor based on its skills rather than its look. Heros Journey lets you wear whatever you want and still effectively have it protect you. For example, you may dress as a pirate, a knight in shining armor or any other of the amazing combinations they offer. The frilly pirate shirt will act just as well as the armor for protection. Obviously, this sacrifices realism, but it ensures that players get to look how they want and still effectively play the game."-Dana Massey, Live From E3, May 19, 2005
While I agree that you can go overboard with armor stats, I don't think a shirt should provide as much protection as armor. I do like the idea in Warhammer Online, that the bigger and badder a character looks, the bigger and badder he really is. The most silly thing I've seen recently is a human warrior in WoW holding off a 50 foot dragon with just his sword, when the dragon could simply step on him. Some level of realism has its place for immersion purposes.
-Hunt'n
----------------------- Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW. Current MMO: Current Games: L4D, Skyrim Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR. Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
You know, I think other companies can take a cue from you guys (Offiste GMs) here answering questions. I think this alone has probably contributed to excitement for the game and pulled in quite a few people. Although, I have to admit I like the unsantized, PR driven answers more than just some PR dribble.
Ok on to the topic. The whole armor/wardrobe thing. I personally like the Xena example that was given in.. er.. some journal I read (Sorry forgot). Xena was a hero and in her little leather mini and using her skills (and a very evil chakram) she kicked the crap outta armored warlords and other stuff all the time. I personally like that idea in an MMO. If anything I think it can lend itself well to RP and diversify the game. "Oh look, there's Benny the Pirate and his friend Goober the Pink, the elven archer!" Login in to WoW and every L60 <insert Class> is wearing pretty much the same thing. I personally noticed the mages myself. And then lump in the limited character customization of WoW you have 500 clones running around in Ironforge or Orgrimmar. It's kinda silly. If that doesn't break 'immersion' I don't know what will. EQ was much the same way in the endgame. (NOTE: I remember Monks before Kunark!)
The socialization/community building aspects truely interest me. Once again, unsantized PR speak. This tells me a lot about the game or atleast the GMs iseas on how to make this game unique and seriously entertaining. One thing we had in SWG (Yes another SWG reference, forgive me) is we had awesome (if not somehwat bugged) community building. I was in a RP town that had been around since very early in SWG launch on Eclipse server. The community in it was excellent and we posted tons of stories about our characters and had huge events in the town all the time. Aside from that the people in that community bonded and we openly welcomed people into it. Even newbie RPers who had no clue. Several times many of the RPers would help them with RPing and walk them through basic RP elements (Like talking about yourself in character) to get them into their characters. That, builds friends and strangthen bonds with people. Of course it goes much farther than that.
So I have a question. I'm curious if you can tell us how you'll handle the simple thing of socialization chatwise? Lemme give two examples so you can see were I'm heading. In EQ, /shout and /ooc were a boon and a bane. The whole zone could hear it (EC Auctions coming back to haunt me) but in most ways I think it was better than bad. DAoC on the otherhand really cripples chat unless it's guild, tells, or face to face. There is a broadcast but no one uses it because it's kind of pointless unless you're in one of the main cities. So can you share how HJ will do this?
Once again, I want to thank the GMs for putting up with us and having some great conversations.
I can hop onto a "tiny" part of the chat subject. I can not reveal it all though. (And subject to change if needed)
There will be general area chat and such and there will be clan, quild and group chats. Just like most good games. There will be more to it, but that's the part I can not touch on.
Clan and Guild I can touch on though more than the others. Those will "broadcast" anywhere in the game where your clan or guild members are.
Nothing overly spectacular about what I revealed, I know.
That's because the cool stuff you have to see first hand.
And let me say for the record that the onsite and offsite GM's that have worked on that system have done one hell of a job. Artists included in that.
Also, we are not "putting up" with all of you or your questions. We are learning from all of you in one form or another. You can't make a game that will last if you don't know what they people want. (No SWG references needed there... I get it.) I'm proud and honored to be able to speak with all of you here.
So, let me toss a thanks out to MMORPG.com for the forums. Thanks.
Originally posted by HJ-Royce I can hop onto a "tiny" part of the chat subject. I can not reveal it all though. (And subject to change if needed) There will be general area chat and such and there will be clan, quild and group chats. Just like most good games. There will be more to it, but that's the part I can not touch on. Clan and Guild I can touch on though more than the others. Those will "broadcast" anywhere in the game where your clan or guild members are. Nothing overly spectacular about what I revealed, I know. That's because the cool stuff you have to see first hand. And let me say for the record that the onsite and offsite GM's that have worked on that system have done one hell of a job. Artists included in that. Also, we are not "putting up" with all of you or your questions. We are learning from all of you in one form or another. You can't make a game that will last if you don't know what they people want. (No SWG references needed there... I get it.) I'm proud and honored to be able to speak with all of you here. So, let me toss a thanks out to MMORPG.com for the forums. Thanks.
Thanks for taking the time to answer. I do understand not revealing things. I reserve the right to claw at my eyes though over it. hehe You know, I'm so excited about this game and dying for info so badly that when it does come out I may just buy 30 copies to get a sense of relief!
I've been very impressed with the communication with you gals/guys. I would venture over to the HJ official forums but they confuse the crap out of me and I'm a diehard forum junkie (I setup a guild forum for my EQ guild before most guilds had websites, oh lord that dates me).
Since the topic is on immersion and RPIng, I was curious if guys had ever considered allowing (limited of course) players to create their own graphics? Nothing serious (Not second Life like) of course but like a guild banner, clan flag, thong, whatever. I know policing user content could/would be tough so someone doesn't have a giant penis for a guild emblem or something, but I always kind of liked the thought of making my own Guild Banner and running head long into death with it.
Actually as you mention Warhammer (back on page 3!), as well as the "realism" factor the fact you're bigger also makes you an easier target in RvR, just think you click into a crowd for your next victim, the chances are you'll click the big guy - this will both be a more interesting fight, but also the little guys get to enjoy the fight a little longer
SpirotofGame (hope I remebered your tag right!), hehe, just got round to looking at the Darkfall forums and see exactly what you mean, a post warning the the game is not for everyone followed imedaitly by an attack on OP then it broke out in an agrument over who was trolling - worth looking over there just for the laugh ;-)
I'm not sure about letting players do graphics, while its great if you're a decent artist its not so hot if I did one for example.
Interesting thing there is the chat channels thing.... artists you say... maybe I misread that but was there a hint that artists were somehow involved with chat??? Intriguing...
Currently Playing:GW2 Currently Following:Elder Scrolls Online Games in my wake:Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
Originally posted by Huntn Originally posted by xDivianaDRx "To date, games have made you chose your armor based on its skills rather than its look. Heros Journey lets you wear whatever you want and still effectively have it protect you. For example, you may dress as a pirate, a knight in shining armor or any other of the amazing combinations they offer. The frilly pirate shirt will act just as well as the armor for protection. Obviously, this sacrifices realism, but it ensures that players get to look how they want and still effectively play the game."-Dana Massey, Live From E3, May 19, 2005
While I agree that you can go overboard with armor stats, I don't think a shirt should provide as much protection as armor. I do like the idea in Warhammer Online, that the bigger and badder a character looks, the bigger and badder he really is. The most silly thing I've seen recently is a human warrior in WoW holding off a 50 foot dragon with just his sword, when the dragon could simply step on him. Some level of realism has its place for immersion purposes.
-Hunt'n
I always find it intriguing to see things like this.
You say it's not realistic for some guy using nothing but a sword to kill a dragon? Bad news, dragons are not real. So if you're willing to accept the fact that there are dragons in this virtual world why is it so hard to accept that they can be killed by a guy with a sword? After all St. George slew a dragon. It's a fantasy world, what's real is determined by the creators of that world. If the creators of a virtual world say there are dragons and that they can be killed by a gnome with a toothpick then that is real for that world.
And as for realistic - If the cave paintings are to be believed, a small group of cave men were able to take down a wooly mammoth using nothing more than sharpened sticks.
Originally posted by HJ-Sisca Originally posted by Huntn Originally posted by xDivianaDRx "To date, games have made you chose your armor based on its skills rather than its look. Heros Journey lets you wear whatever you want and still effectively have it protect you. For example, you may dress as a pirate, a knight in shining armor or any other of the amazing combinations they offer. The frilly pirate shirt will act just as well as the armor for protection. Obviously, this sacrifices realism, but it ensures that players get to look how they want and still effectively play the game."-Dana Massey, Live From E3, May 19, 2005
While I agree that you can go overboard with armor stats, I don't think a shirt should provide as much protection as armor. I do like the idea in Warhammer Online, that the bigger and badder a character looks, the bigger and badder he really is. The most silly thing I've seen recently is a human warrior in WoW holding off a 50 foot dragon with just his sword, when the dragon could simply step on him. Some level of realism has its place for immersion purposes.
-Hunt'n
I always find it intriguing to see things like this.
You say it's not realistic for some guy using nothing but a sword to kill a dragon? Bad news, dragons are not real. So if you're willing to accept the fact that there are dragons in this virtual world why is it so hard to accept that they can be killed by a guy with a sword? After all St. George slew a dragon. It's a fantasy world, what's real is determined by the creators of that world. If the creators of a virtual world say there are dragons and that they can be killed by a gnome with a toothpick then that is real for that world.
And as for realistic - If the cave paintings are to be believed, a small group of cave men were able to take down a wooly mammoth using nothing more than sharpened sticks.
So you accept that a shirt (not a magically infused shirt) provides a much protection as armor if someone tells you that's how it is. So be it. :P Whether it's fantasy or not, we all have a level where we can suspend disbelief. And when an event crosses a point (we individually decided where that point is), then we lose it. No longer can we believe what we are seeing. As you know that happens often in movies. There must be some basis or reason given for why something unbelievable can happen. While I believe that the hero in Sleeping Beauty slayed the dragon, it was by no means a certain thing. Having a warrior stand there and swing his weapon at a creature who could physically sweep him away at any time with no effort at all is not believable to me. It's also along the lines of fighting a 20 foot tall ogre who could drop you before you ever got close enough to hit him with a physical weapon.
I do agree that a shirt wearing player should be able to physically defend himself against a armor wearing opponent, but when a strike is made each player should suffer accordingly.
BTW magic is a whole different ball game when it comes to fighting monsters.
-Hunt'n
----------------------- Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW. Current MMO: Current Games: L4D, Skyrim Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR. Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
Originally posted by Huntn Originally posted by HJ-Sisca Originally posted by Huntn Originally posted by xDivianaDRx "To date, games have made you chose your armor based on its skills rather than its look. Heros Journey lets you wear whatever you want and still effectively have it protect you. For example, you may dress as a pirate, a knight in shining armor or any other of the amazing combinations they offer. The frilly pirate shirt will act just as well as the armor for protection. Obviously, this sacrifices realism, but it ensures that players get to look how they want and still effectively play the game."-Dana Massey, Live From E3, May 19, 2005
While I agree that you can go overboard with armor stats, I don't think a shirt should provide as much protection as armor. I do like the idea in Warhammer Online, that the bigger and badder a character looks, the bigger and badder he really is. The most silly thing I've seen recently is a human warrior in WoW holding off a 50 foot dragon with just his sword, when the dragon could simply step on him. Some level of realism has its place for immersion purposes.
-Hunt'n
I always find it intriguing to see things like this.
You say it's not realistic for some guy using nothing but a sword to kill a dragon? Bad news, dragons are not real. So if you're willing to accept the fact that there are dragons in this virtual world why is it so hard to accept that they can be killed by a guy with a sword? After all St. George slew a dragon. It's a fantasy world, what's real is determined by the creators of that world. If the creators of a virtual world say there are dragons and that they can be killed by a gnome with a toothpick then that is real for that world.
And as for realistic - If the cave paintings are to be believed, a small group of cave men were able to take down a wooly mammoth using nothing more than sharpened sticks.
So you accept that a shirt (not a magically infused shirt) provides a much protection as armor if someone tells you that's how it is. So be it. :P Whether it's fantasy or not, we all have a level where we can suspend disbelief. And when an event crosses a point (we individually decided where that point is), then we lose it. No longer can we believe what we are seeing. As you know that happens often in movies. There must be some basis or reason given for why something unbelievable can happen. While I believe that the hero in Sleeping Beauty slayed the dragon, it was by no means a certain thing. Having a warrior stand there and swing his weapon at a creature who could physically sweep him away at any time with no effort at all is not believable to me. It's also along the lines of fighting a 20 foot tall ogre who could drop you before you ever got close enough to hit him with a physical weapon.
I do agree that a shirt wearing player should be able to physically defend himself against a armor wearing opponent, but when a strike is made each player should suffer accordingly.
BTW magic is a whole different ball game when it comes to fighting monsters.
-Hunt'n
Yes because I read the quote as it's written and as it's been said repeatedly on this and other forums. What HJ plans to do is divorce what your armor LOOKS like from its stats. If a piece of armor has, to borrow from D&D, an AC of 3 then what does it matter if it's made of metal or leather or cloth? AC is AC. If, to make that acceptable, you like to think of the cloth as being magically imbued, well its your world too so go for it.
I can accept that because it will allow players to create their hero to look the way they envision it and that, to me, is much more immersive than having every character of the same race/class/level look exactly alike.
I also feel that if I can suspend my disbelief enough to accept that there are dragons, 20 foot ogres or skeletons walking around in the virtual world of the game I'm playing then I can accept that a guy with a sword can kill one.
I guess it's just a difference in what we're looking for in a game. I play games to escape from reality not to try and emulate it. If I wanted to emulate reality I'd play Battlefield 2, but I've done my time in the military and while I can think of a lot of adjectives to describe the experience "fun" isn't at the top of the list
Originally posted by HJ-Sisca Originally posted by Huntn Originally posted by HJ-Sisca Originally posted by Huntn Originally posted by xDivianaDRx "To date, games have made you chose your armor based on its skills rather than its look. Heros Journey lets you wear whatever you want and still effectively have it protect you. For example, you may dress as a pirate, a knight in shining armor or any other of the amazing combinations they offer. The frilly pirate shirt will act just as well as the armor for protection. Obviously, this sacrifices realism, but it ensures that players get to look how they want and still effectively play the game."-Dana Massey, Live From E3, May 19, 2005
While I agree that you can go overboard with armor stats, I don't think a shirt should provide as much protection as armor. I do like the idea in Warhammer Online, that the bigger and badder a character looks, the bigger and badder he really is. The most silly thing I've seen recently is a human warrior in WoW holding off a 50 foot dragon with just his sword, when the dragon could simply step on him. Some level of realism has its place for immersion purposes.
-Hunt'n
I always find it intriguing to see things like this.
You say it's not realistic for some guy using nothing but a sword to kill a dragon? Bad news, dragons are not real. So if you're willing to accept the fact that there are dragons in this virtual world why is it so hard to accept that they can be killed by a guy with a sword? After all St. George slew a dragon. It's a fantasy world, what's real is determined by the creators of that world. If the creators of a virtual world say there are dragons and that they can be killed by a gnome with a toothpick then that is real for that world.
And as for realistic - If the cave paintings are to be believed, a small group of cave men were able to take down a wooly mammoth using nothing more than sharpened sticks.
So you accept that a shirt (not a magically infused shirt) provides a much protection as armor if someone tells you that's how it is. So be it. :P Whether it's fantasy or not, we all have a level where we can suspend disbelief. And when an event crosses a point (we individually decided where that point is), then we lose it. No longer can we believe what we are seeing. As you know that happens often in movies. There must be some basis or reason given for why something unbelievable can happen. While I believe that the hero in Sleeping Beauty slayed the dragon, it was by no means a certain thing. Having a warrior stand there and swing his weapon at a creature who could physically sweep him away at any time with no effort at all is not believable to me. It's also along the lines of fighting a 20 foot tall ogre who could drop you before you ever got close enough to hit him with a physical weapon.
I do agree that a shirt wearing player should be able to physically defend himself against a armor wearing opponent, but when a strike is made each player should suffer accordingly.
BTW magic is a whole different ball game when it comes to fighting monsters.
-Hunt'n
Yes because I read the quote as it's written and as it's been said repeatedly on this and other forums. What HJ plans to do is divorce what your armor LOOKS like from its stats. If a piece of armor has, to borrow from D&D, an AC of 3 then what does it matter if it's made of metal or leather or cloth? AC is AC. If, to make that acceptable, you like to think of the cloth as being magically imbued, well its your world too so go for it.
Yes I can acept that.
[b][quote]Originally posted by HJ-SiscaI can accept that because it will allow players to create their hero to look the way they envision it and that, to me, is much more immersive than having every character of the same race/class/level look exactly alike. [/b][/quote]
In WoW all players were heavily armored but they had quite a variety of appearances.
[b][quote]Originally posted by HJ-SiscaI guess it's just a difference in what we're looking for in a game. I play games to escape from reality not to try and emulate it. If I wanted to emulate reality I'd play Battlefield 2, but I've done my time in the military and while I can think of a lot of adjectives to describe the experience "fun" isn't at the top of the list [/b][/quote]
I don't think we are all that different. I like fantasy, but if the physics or properties are different than what I would otherwise expect, I want to know that... like magic imbued shirts.
-Hunt'n
----------------------- Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW. Current MMO: Current Games: L4D, Skyrim Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR. Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
Lot of information to dig through. But I think I recall reading that your weapons will level with you and be upgradeable(word?)
As I said I think I read that in one of the weekly biweekly interviews.
I love the idea. I know that Sometimes it is a big let down to change weapons. You need the more powerful weapon but it looks like poo poo. It happens more with changing clothing and armor. But I know that there have been a few times where I almost didn't take a better weapon due to it's oogliness.
Here is a question, should probably post it in Royce"s thread. But this is about weapons and armor/clothing. How many have played games where you could not preview the item before you picked it up? Or having multiple choices from a quest. Pick one of four items. They are all comparable, let's say, and you had no way of knowing what it would look like?
So let's vote.
Hopefully everything in this game will be able to be previewed before accepting. It is especially frustrating with items that bind to you on pick up. So then you can't even sell the undesirable piece of gear.
Here I am stuck running around in the fuchsia armor of everyoneshunsme for three more levels. Gotta love that.
So you accept that a shirt (not a magically infused shirt) provides a much protection as armor if someone tells you that's how it is. So be it. :P Whether it's fantasy or not, we all have a level where we can suspend disbelief. And when an event crosses a point (we individually decided where that point is), then we lose it. No longer can we believe what we are seeing. As you know that happens often in movies. There must be some basis or reason given for why something unbelievable can happen. While I believe that the hero in Sleeping Beauty slayed the dragon, it was by no means a certain thing. Having a warrior stand there and swing his weapon at a creature who could physically sweep him away at any time with no effort at all is not believable to me. It's also along the lines of fighting a 20 foot tall ogre who could drop you before you ever got close enough to hit him with a physical weapon.
I do agree that a shirt wearing player should be able to physically defend himself against a armor wearing opponent, but when a strike is made each player should suffer accordingly.
BTW magic is a whole different ball game when it comes to fighting monsters.
-Hunt'n
You saw Lord of the Rings right? Specifically The Return of the King. Legolas took out an entire war elephant thingy and all the men on it by himself in nothing more then his clothing and maybe some light leather. Using just a bow no less!
Heros in fantasy literature are always doing fantastic things that are beyond belief. That's what makes them heros instead of just a commoner. Heros stand out. They don't look like anyone else, and that's what we're attemtping to add to the game with the character customization system.
You might as well give up arguing, some people will accept it others will not, personally I'll happily add a little to my disbelief "level" in order not to end up following Tuaren #1023 (which I have actually done - the poor guy must have thought he was being stalked!!!!)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Currently Playing:GW2 Currently Following:Elder Scrolls Online Games in my wake:Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
When I play MMORPGs I attempt to turn off as much superfluous screen clutter (and chatbox clutter) as I possibly can -- especially Player Names. I find them utterly distracting.
Due to this, I tend to really LOOK at other player characters trying to note minor differences so I can identify them easily.
Therefore, any time a game developer allows players to create personal wardrobes for their characters, I always think this is a step in the right direction. I would like to be able to visually identify players (and optionally to click-target them to confirm their names if necessary) just as I would recognize someone walking down the street.
Interesting, SpiritofGame. I'm a little different. I tend to OCD out a bit and, like, need to see people's names. I mean, I like what you've described better in theory, but, like, there've been times when I've chased after people to see exactly what their name was, or how to pronounce it. So, yeah, I click on people allot... .
(P.S. Here's hoping this weeks screens are of Stoneborn. Most especially Qwi.)
Originally posted by HJ-Illuminat Originally posted by Huntn So you accept that a shirt (not a magically infused shirt) provides a much protection as armor if someone tells you that's how it is. So be it. :P Whether it's fantasy or not, we all have a level where we can suspend disbelief. And when an event crosses a point (we individually decided where that point is), then we lose it. No longer can we believe what we are seeing. As you know that happens often in movies. There must be some basis or reason given for why something unbelievable can happen. While I believe that the hero in Sleeping Beauty slayed the dragon, it was by no means a certain thing. Having a warrior stand there and swing his weapon at a creature who could physically sweep him away at any time with no effort at all is not believable to me. It's also along the lines of fighting a 20 foot tall ogre who could drop you before you ever got close enough to hit him with a physical weapon. I do agree that a shirt wearing player should be able to physically defend himself against a armor wearing opponent, but when a strike is made each player should suffer accordingly. BTW magic is a whole different ball game when it comes to fighting monsters. -Hunt'n You saw Lord of the Rings right? Specifically The Return of the King. Legolas took out an entire war elephant thingy and all the men on it by himself in nothing more then his clothing and maybe some light leather. Using just a bow no less! Heros in fantasy literature are always doing fantastic things that are beyond belief. That's what makes them heros instead of just a commoner. Heros stand out. They don't look like anyone else, and that's what we're attemtping to add to the game with the character customization system.
But as fantastic as it was, what Legolas did looked believable (in a fantasy sort of way ) as compared to a warrior standing there swinging his sword with a dragon who could step on him and finish the fight in a second. Of course in the game, the dragon never does step on him soooo, I gues he is just lucky and the dragon is stupid.
-Hunt'n
----------------------- Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW. Current MMO: Current Games: L4D, Skyrim Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR. Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
Perhaps the dragon is just to slow to step on the warrior. Perhaps a sword in the foot leaves the dragon too open for this type of attack to work. With that long neck and big wings, can the dragon even stomp with much acuracy? Would it be smart of the dragon to put the warrior in a position under him?
Combat is not simply, I am bigger so I will smash you!
Originally posted by SpiritofGame Just a minor note... When I play MMORPGs I attempt to turn off as much superfluous screen clutter (and chatbox clutter) as I possibly can -- especially Player Names. I find them utterly distracting. Due to this, I tend to really LOOK at other player characters trying to note minor differences so I can identify them easily. Therefore, any time a game developer allows players to create personal wardrobes for their characters, I always think this is a step in the right direction. I would like to be able to visually identify players (and optionally to click-target them to confirm their names if necessary) just as I would recognize someone walking down the street.
As much as I like to get into a game and RP away, I still find it too challenging to tell who's who just from character appearance alone. Though like you I hope the level of customization HJ could provide is a big step towards "Hey, I know you! And I didn't even have your name plastered in neon above your head." But at the same time, as much as it'd be nice not to have to rely upon overhead names to distinguish players, there is something really nice about staring at a name that just grabs you. In my past experiences sometimes I come across a name that I really really like and it's great just to see it there kinda gracing my screen. Oh, and I have to have a lot of chatter going on. I tend to display more chat channels than I ever intend to actually use because I like the see the world alive and words buzzing all over the place. But that's just me, I can see how that could drive others crazy!
Originally posted by jgankum Perhaps the dragon is just to slow to step on the warrior. Perhaps a sword in the foot leaves the dragon too open for this type of attack to work. With that long neck and big wings, can the dragon even stomp with much acuracy? Would it be smart of the dragon to put the warrior in a position under him?Combat is not simply, I am bigger so I will smash you!
Your just so gullible about what is credible! Ok that was said in jest. I concede. I guess these kinds of fights just don't look realistic to my fantasy sensibilities.
-Hunt'n
----------------------- Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW. Current MMO: Current Games: L4D, Skyrim Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR. Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
Heh. I'm new to this thread but enjoying the discussion. Please don't stop!
The more accurate portrayal of a stereotypical fantasy world is, from LOTR, the scene where they are fighting over the grave of Gimli's cousin in the Mines. Forward to that scene with your DVD player and study it carefully because there will be a quizz...
...quizz time!!
What are the villians wearing and what are their body types? What are the heroes wearing and what are their body types? Are you watching the choreography of that skirmish? How the heck is Frodo surviving? (Hint: until that one, lucky shot...his mithril didn't add a thing to his combat or evasion). Are you beginning to see where wardrobe has very little to do with maximizing your skill? Now what if Gandalf were wearing armor instead of a robe? What would happen with his skill and why should that matter in a game?
If you can accept this battle scene as being "fantastically correct," then you're good to go for Hero's Journey.
Originally posted by hj-sylveria Are you beginning to see where wardrobe has very little to do with maximizing your skill? Now what if Gandalf were wearing armor instead of a robe? What would happen with his skill and why should that matter in a game? If you can accept this battle scene as being "fantastically correct," then you're good to go for Hero's Journey.
Heck yes I am good to go for Hero's Journey.
While I love finding rare and valuable loot drops (no idea what HJ plans for this), I have always tended to feel that the majority of a player's abilities should be innate -- meaning, based on the character's skills (stats) rather than the quality of the gear. Not to say that "buffs" are unwelcome, they certainly are nice, but I would rather depend on the character's accumulated skills, overall.
Of course, for example, a wizard's staff seems important -- always seemed to be important to Gandalf to the point he was never without it and to have "your staff broken" was a very, VERY bad thing (ask Saruman).
Now, personally, I like Rangers (info coming out soon on Wizards, Necros and Rangers, btw) so, to me, my choice of bow is really, really important -- and either buying or finding a great one or having a favorite one "level up" with you. So that sometimes "style" seems far more important than "buffs."
So, I guess I am saying, if HJ takes the position where skills and stats are very important, and items such as armor and weapons are good but definitely of secondary importance, I think this would be fine with me.
I also remember in past MMORPGs when my character had to get new armor or a weapon, I wasn't always really happy with that IF it changed my character's "look" in a way that I did not like.
Okay, here's the Orc fight at Thorin's tomb with buffs and items:
*Boromir slams door* "Oh FFS! They have a Cave Troll!"
*Aragorn* "Ack! Is he buffed, what's his equip, does he have the Great Thumper Hammer of Numenor?!"
*Legolas* "Don't worry, my bow has awesome Rapid Shot and Multi-Shot plus really nice AoE fire damage!"
*Gimli* "I have the Great Slicing Axe of Fundin with super-high DPS lightning damage procs!"
*Merry and Pippin together* "Snaps! We don't have crap!"
*Samwise* "Don't worry fellas, I got the Great Frying Pan of Goblin Whacking!"
*Gandalf* "Gather on me! I'll put uber defense and agility buffs on you all!"
*Frodo* "Heh, don't worry about me, I got the Great Waistcoat of Anti-Wild Boar Skewering. I'll be fine!"
Comments
Make it a Teflon surface so I can scratch the hell out of it with a fork! That'd be sweet...
Anyway, I totally agree with just about everything you just said, Mitra, and I find that odd. I mean, normally I agree with bits and pieces of what people say, but that was a very well done post. This is when I start withing there was a clapping emote...
I can't really add anything to what you've said. My characters(And I...) rarely find their niche, though, and as such, I often leave games feeling rather unsatisfied. It's possibly because I play with people who don't normally RP and end up making a lot of OOC jokes and comments. I mean, I'm not that good at RPing, even if I try... Wow, that's sad. Anyway, the point is: I've yet to really click with a game. Here's hoping I can click with Hero's Journey.
sorry sorry sorry. I did the dreaded "wall of text" thing
That's a big question! And one I too find interesting, due at least partly to my past study of anthropology. In virtual communities such as we are discussing, I think people feel most connected when they have a concrete way of contributing to the social experience. By helping out other players (which can take the form of sharing advice, gifting items, retelling lore, providing entertainment, etc.) people start to feel like an essential part of the community, and they develop ties to a number of other individuals. The connections become very personal - you are no longer that elf that hangs around outside the general store, you become Trevor, the rather amusing ranger with a penchant for redheads who knows where to find just about anything you could possibly need for potion-making.
So how do we get to this point where people have roles to fill in the community and others recognize them for their unique contributions? I don't have an absolute answer to that, just a few disjointed thoughts. From a mechanics standpoint, there should be important and useful things that players can do for one another which aren't too easily duplicated by an automated process. From a lore and background standpoint, there should be enough interesting information about the world and its cultures to provide stereotypes that people can play to and against, along with details to enrich their roleplay and mysteries to deepen it. And from a social standpoint, there need to be ways for players to form groups of their own and support for the ways in which they envision those groups interacting with the world. Finally, there should be ways in which players can make permanent marks on the world - it cannot have a Teflon surface. Making that mark may take time, effort, and luck, but just knowing it can happen will make all the difference.
But feel free to disagree with me on any of these points! I'd love to hear what thoughts you all have on the subject.
Mitra
*proceed with caution - nerd spasm is progress*
Oh wow. Honestly I was expecting a few fuzzy opinions based on your own experience, but the fact that you have approached the subject from an anthropological perspective is a breath of fresh air.
Just be thankful that you aren't within earshot or I'd be subjecting you to a minimum 45 minute rambling session while I referrence several case studies, news articles, and potential applications of Psychological type indicators regarding Virtual Communities.
Just last weekend my brother and I had a 2 hour conversation about the state of Virtual Communities as they relate to MMORPGs. We both have an interest in them and have been archiving relevant news, sociological and psychological studies. His background is in sociology. My understanding is less acredited but more experienced in the psychology of personality types and their inherent individual motivations.
More to the point, I think you are right on track regarding my initial question of what makes a game community strong. Meaningfull contributions to the social experience and feeling that your presence has value are indeed elements of a strong community. I almost wish you had given a few points that I'd like to disagree with as it would have easily motivated a continued conversation.
Off the top of my head the only thing I could think to add is - The sharing of salient experiences/adventures. I'd be tempted to think a while longer and try to toss in some other minor additions if the question you posed wasn't so much more challenging/interesting.
Your question:
"So how do we get to this point where people have roles to fill in the community and others recognize them for their unique contributions?"
I think I twitched a few times when I read this. Good stuff. And I believe you are right that the ideas you gave are in the direction of that "absolute answer", but there are some important pieces missing.
And a word of caution before I continue. I will soon reveal myself to be a completely self serving information whore. I blame you for this
It wouldn't have happend if you had not asked THE question, but seeing as how we've been working on an answer for months, I'd like to tweak that question just a bit.
"So how do we get to this point where people have roles to fill in the community - That Are Deeply Meaningful and Fulfilling To Them As An Individual - and others recognize them for their unique contributions?"
From what I've found, one of the biggest draws of an MMORPG is Purpose. In a virtual social environment (chat rooms, forums, myspace, aim, etc) the purpose usually is to just socialize/communicate with other people. Interpersonal dynamics can be explored here to seamingly no end, but for for now I will leave it somewhat simplified.
However, once we take those dynamics of virtual socializing and give them a deeper Purpose, (like Adventuring together in a virtual world) it takes the experience(s) to new levels. I can't help but cite a study that speaks directly to the power of our in-game identities here.
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/column_index.php?story=8280
I don't know how to make it a live link. Here's an excerpt from that article.
"Understanding how such processes are related, and how the operate within game environments, could well become essential to future generations of gaming. Understand the basic psychology of the gamer and your game will be far stronger."
No worries, we're on it!
Also, relating to my statement earlier, I think its important to note that the term "adventure" can mean widely different things to different people. The common various "adventures" that people enjoy in MMORPGs have been documented by different studies, and peoples preferences/priorities tend to overlap a bit, making a clean and simple answer to THE question more difficult.
Thats not to say that defining and applying salient "adventures" is the ultimate answer, just an important part of it. . . (Geez, I'm rambling. sorry)
I'll move on to the - me being an information whore - part
As stated earlier in this post, my brother and I archive news articles and relevant scientific data. This is to support and refine the methodology and process we been designing over the last several months.
I believe we are about 70% of the way to providing effective and conistent answers to that question. Notice I say answerS - the plural. If our ideas are proven correct, the solution to this problem will actually come not through 1 magical principle of game design, but rather through an intricate series of many targeted and carefully laid out questions, answers and methods of application. (Breaking a complicated problem into its CORRECT essential elements)
Also, we don't pretend to be reinventing the wheel or turning the MMORPG genre on its head with Revolutionary ideas. Many of the foundational concepts we are working from have come from our father who is a new york times, wall street journal, best selling author and our business partners, who are also best selling authors specializing in web presence (I forget which lists they made)
In fact, once completed, the work should simply seem evolutionary, while providing effective approaches to some long standing questions in the MMORPG genre.
So there you go. If our progress continues to the finish line, one day (hopefully soon) we'll be able get people much closer to that "absolute answer" than any developer has been before. And now I must sleep.
-- I need a nerf --
Ouch, my brain hurts...<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Great posts you guys
I guess my take on things is a little simpler, a great community to me is one where people form bonds, not necessarily with the whole community but at least with groups of people, in fact the best community I have enjoyed was a while back in AC2 - here we had a good guild who supported each other, would take time out to help - even breaking from quests (only in guild ones) to assist someone in trouble (and not always from our own guild), now while we were not a PvP uber guild we did take a role as guardians and assisted others in getting through the PvP areas when the gankers were out - and odd as it seemed even they added greatly to the game, it gave us the opportunity to shine and we became known..
Good times were had by all, there was this sort of good guy vs bad guy thing going in what most would call a carebear world
I'm also intested that the forum community was mentioned again, I've seem it said a couple of times now that this forum tends to discuss, even argue but so far never out and out flame and its refreshing, my guess is that because it spends so much time at the bottom of the top 10 here that it just isn't attracting the attention of the trolls
Currently Playing: GW2
Currently Following: Elder Scrolls Online
Games in my wake: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
While I agree that you can go overboard with armor stats, I don't think a shirt should provide as much protection as armor. I do like the idea in Warhammer Online, that the bigger and badder a character looks, the bigger and badder he really is. The most silly thing I've seen recently is a human warrior in WoW holding off a 50 foot dragon with just his sword, when the dragon could simply step on him. Some level of realism has its place for immersion purposes.
-Hunt'n
-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
You know, I think other companies can take a cue from you guys (Offiste GMs) here answering questions.
I think this alone has probably contributed to excitement for the game and pulled in quite a few people.
Although, I have to admit I like the unsantized, PR driven answers more than just some PR dribble.
Ok on to the topic. The whole armor/wardrobe thing. I personally like the Xena example that was given in.. er.. some journal I read (Sorry forgot). Xena was a hero and in her little leather mini and using her skills (and a very evil chakram) she kicked the crap outta armored warlords and other stuff all the time. I personally like that idea in an MMO. If anything I think it can lend itself well to RP and diversify the game. "Oh look, there's Benny the Pirate and his friend Goober the Pink, the elven archer!"
Login in to WoW and every L60 <insert Class> is wearing pretty much the same thing. I personally noticed the mages myself. And then lump in the limited character customization of WoW you have 500 clones running around in Ironforge or Orgrimmar. It's kinda silly. If that doesn't break 'immersion' I don't know what will.
EQ was much the same way in the endgame. (NOTE: I remember Monks before Kunark!)
The socialization/community building aspects truely interest me. Once again, unsantized PR speak. This tells me a lot about the game or atleast the GMs iseas on how to make this game unique and seriously entertaining.
One thing we had in SWG (Yes another SWG reference, forgive me) is we had awesome (if not somehwat bugged) community building. I was in a RP town that had been around since very early in SWG launch on Eclipse server. The community in it was excellent and we posted tons of stories about our characters and had huge events in the town all the time. Aside from that the people in that community bonded and we openly welcomed people into it. Even newbie RPers who had no clue. Several times many of the RPers would help them with RPing and walk them through basic RP elements (Like talking about yourself in character) to get them into their characters.
That, builds friends and strangthen bonds with people. Of course it goes much farther than that.
So I have a question. I'm curious if you can tell us how you'll handle the simple thing of socialization chatwise? Lemme give two examples so you can see were I'm heading.
In EQ, /shout and /ooc were a boon and a bane. The whole zone could hear it (EC Auctions coming back to haunt me) but in most ways I think it was better than bad.
DAoC on the otherhand really cripples chat unless it's guild, tells, or face to face. There is a broadcast but no one uses it because it's kind of pointless unless you're in one of the main cities.
So can you share how HJ will do this?
Once again, I want to thank the GMs for putting up with us and having some great conversations.
I can hop onto a "tiny" part of the chat subject. I can not reveal it all though. (And subject to change if needed)
There will be general area chat and such and there will be clan, quild and group chats. Just like most good games. There will be more to it, but that's the part I can not touch on.
Clan and Guild I can touch on though more than the others. Those will "broadcast" anywhere in the game where your clan or guild members are.
Nothing overly spectacular about what I revealed, I know.
That's because the cool stuff you have to see first hand.
And let me say for the record that the onsite and offsite GM's that have worked on that system have done one hell of a job. Artists included in that.
Also, we are not "putting up" with all of you or your questions. We are learning from all of you in one form or another. You can't make a game that will last if you don't know what they people want. (No SWG references needed there... I get it.) I'm proud and honored to be able to speak with all of you here.
So, let me toss a thanks out to MMORPG.com for the forums. Thanks.
HJ-Royce
Simutronics Staff (GM)
http://www.play.net/hj/
Thanks for taking the time to answer. I do understand not revealing things. I reserve the right to claw at my eyes though over it. hehe
You know, I'm so excited about this game and dying for info so badly that when it does come out I may just buy 30 copies to get a sense of relief!
I've been very impressed with the communication with you gals/guys. I would venture over to the HJ official forums but they confuse the crap out of me and I'm a diehard forum junkie (I setup a guild forum for my EQ guild before most guilds had websites, oh lord that dates me).
Since the topic is on immersion and RPIng, I was curious if guys had ever considered allowing (limited of course) players to create their own graphics? Nothing serious (Not second Life like) of course but like a guild banner, clan flag, thong, whatever. I know policing user content could/would be tough so someone doesn't have a giant penis for a guild emblem or something, but I always kind of liked the thought of making my own Guild Banner and running head long into death with it.
Actually as you mention Warhammer (back on page 3!), as well as the "realism" factor the fact you're bigger also makes you an easier target in RvR, just think you click into a crowd for your next victim, the chances are you'll click the big guy - this will both be a more interesting fight, but also the little guys get to enjoy the fight a little longer
SpirotofGame (hope I remebered your tag right!), hehe, just got round to looking at the Darkfall forums and see exactly what you mean, a post warning the the game is not for everyone followed imedaitly by an attack on OP then it broke out in an agrument over who was trolling - worth looking over there just for the laugh ;-)
I'm not sure about letting players do graphics, while its great if you're a decent artist its not so hot if I did one for example.
Interesting thing there is the chat channels thing.... artists you say... maybe I misread that but was there a hint that artists were somehow involved with chat??? Intriguing...
Currently Playing: GW2
Currently Following: Elder Scrolls Online
Games in my wake: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
While I agree that you can go overboard with armor stats, I don't think a shirt should provide as much protection as armor. I do like the idea in Warhammer Online, that the bigger and badder a character looks, the bigger and badder he really is. The most silly thing I've seen recently is a human warrior in WoW holding off a 50 foot dragon with just his sword, when the dragon could simply step on him. Some level of realism has its place for immersion purposes.
-Hunt'n
I always find it intriguing to see things like this.
You say it's not realistic for some guy using nothing but a sword to kill a dragon? Bad news, dragons are not real. So if you're willing to accept the fact that there are dragons in this virtual world why is it so hard to accept that they can be killed by a guy with a sword? After all St. George slew a dragon. It's a fantasy world, what's real is determined by the creators of that world. If the creators of a virtual world say there are dragons and that they can be killed by a gnome with a toothpick then that is real for that world.
And as for realistic - If the cave paintings are to be believed, a small group of cave men were able to take down a wooly mammoth using nothing more than sharpened sticks.
While I agree that you can go overboard with armor stats, I don't think a shirt should provide as much protection as armor. I do like the idea in Warhammer Online, that the bigger and badder a character looks, the bigger and badder he really is. The most silly thing I've seen recently is a human warrior in WoW holding off a 50 foot dragon with just his sword, when the dragon could simply step on him. Some level of realism has its place for immersion purposes.
-Hunt'n
I always find it intriguing to see things like this.
You say it's not realistic for some guy using nothing but a sword to kill a dragon? Bad news, dragons are not real. So if you're willing to accept the fact that there are dragons in this virtual world why is it so hard to accept that they can be killed by a guy with a sword? After all St. George slew a dragon. It's a fantasy world, what's real is determined by the creators of that world. If the creators of a virtual world say there are dragons and that they can be killed by a gnome with a toothpick then that is real for that world.
And as for realistic - If the cave paintings are to be believed, a small group of cave men were able to take down a wooly mammoth using nothing more than sharpened sticks.
So you accept that a shirt (not a magically infused shirt) provides a much protection as armor if someone tells you that's how it is. So be it. :P Whether it's fantasy or not, we all have a level where we can suspend disbelief. And when an event crosses a point (we individually decided where that point is), then we lose it. No longer can we believe what we are seeing. As you know that happens often in movies. There must be some basis or reason given for why something unbelievable can happen. While I believe that the hero in Sleeping Beauty slayed the dragon, it was by no means a certain thing. Having a warrior stand there and swing his weapon at a creature who could physically sweep him away at any time with no effort at all is not believable to me. It's also along the lines of fighting a 20 foot tall ogre who could drop you before you ever got close enough to hit him with a physical weapon.
I do agree that a shirt wearing player should be able to physically defend himself against a armor wearing opponent, but when a strike is made each player should suffer accordingly.
BTW magic is a whole different ball game when it comes to fighting monsters.
-Hunt'n
-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
While I agree that you can go overboard with armor stats, I don't think a shirt should provide as much protection as armor. I do like the idea in Warhammer Online, that the bigger and badder a character looks, the bigger and badder he really is. The most silly thing I've seen recently is a human warrior in WoW holding off a 50 foot dragon with just his sword, when the dragon could simply step on him. Some level of realism has its place for immersion purposes.
-Hunt'n
I always find it intriguing to see things like this.
You say it's not realistic for some guy using nothing but a sword to kill a dragon? Bad news, dragons are not real. So if you're willing to accept the fact that there are dragons in this virtual world why is it so hard to accept that they can be killed by a guy with a sword? After all St. George slew a dragon. It's a fantasy world, what's real is determined by the creators of that world. If the creators of a virtual world say there are dragons and that they can be killed by a gnome with a toothpick then that is real for that world.
And as for realistic - If the cave paintings are to be believed, a small group of cave men were able to take down a wooly mammoth using nothing more than sharpened sticks.
So you accept that a shirt (not a magically infused shirt) provides a much protection as armor if someone tells you that's how it is. So be it. :P Whether it's fantasy or not, we all have a level where we can suspend disbelief. And when an event crosses a point (we individually decided where that point is), then we lose it. No longer can we believe what we are seeing. As you know that happens often in movies. There must be some basis or reason given for why something unbelievable can happen. While I believe that the hero in Sleeping Beauty slayed the dragon, it was by no means a certain thing. Having a warrior stand there and swing his weapon at a creature who could physically sweep him away at any time with no effort at all is not believable to me. It's also along the lines of fighting a 20 foot tall ogre who could drop you before you ever got close enough to hit him with a physical weapon.
I do agree that a shirt wearing player should be able to physically defend himself against a armor wearing opponent, but when a strike is made each player should suffer accordingly.
BTW magic is a whole different ball game when it comes to fighting monsters.
-Hunt'n
Yes because I read the quote as it's written and as it's been said repeatedly on this and other forums. What HJ plans to do is divorce what your armor LOOKS like from its stats. If a piece of armor has, to borrow from D&D, an AC of 3 then what does it matter if it's made of metal or leather or cloth? AC is AC. If, to make that acceptable, you like to think of the cloth as being magically imbued, well its your world too so go for it.
I can accept that because it will allow players to create their hero to look the way they envision it and that, to me, is much more immersive than having every character of the same race/class/level look exactly alike.
I also feel that if I can suspend my disbelief enough to accept that there are dragons, 20 foot ogres or skeletons walking around in the virtual world of the game I'm playing then I can accept that a guy with a sword can kill one.
I guess it's just a difference in what we're looking for in a game. I play games to escape from reality not to try and emulate it. If I wanted to emulate reality I'd play Battlefield 2, but I've done my time in the military and while I can think of a lot of adjectives to describe the experience "fun" isn't at the top of the list
While I agree that you can go overboard with armor stats, I don't think a shirt should provide as much protection as armor. I do like the idea in Warhammer Online, that the bigger and badder a character looks, the bigger and badder he really is. The most silly thing I've seen recently is a human warrior in WoW holding off a 50 foot dragon with just his sword, when the dragon could simply step on him. Some level of realism has its place for immersion purposes.
-Hunt'n
I always find it intriguing to see things like this.
You say it's not realistic for some guy using nothing but a sword to kill a dragon? Bad news, dragons are not real. So if you're willing to accept the fact that there are dragons in this virtual world why is it so hard to accept that they can be killed by a guy with a sword? After all St. George slew a dragon. It's a fantasy world, what's real is determined by the creators of that world. If the creators of a virtual world say there are dragons and that they can be killed by a gnome with a toothpick then that is real for that world.
And as for realistic - If the cave paintings are to be believed, a small group of cave men were able to take down a wooly mammoth using nothing more than sharpened sticks.
So you accept that a shirt (not a magically infused shirt) provides a much protection as armor if someone tells you that's how it is. So be it. :P Whether it's fantasy or not, we all have a level where we can suspend disbelief. And when an event crosses a point (we individually decided where that point is), then we lose it. No longer can we believe what we are seeing. As you know that happens often in movies. There must be some basis or reason given for why something unbelievable can happen. While I believe that the hero in Sleeping Beauty slayed the dragon, it was by no means a certain thing. Having a warrior stand there and swing his weapon at a creature who could physically sweep him away at any time with no effort at all is not believable to me. It's also along the lines of fighting a 20 foot tall ogre who could drop you before you ever got close enough to hit him with a physical weapon.
I do agree that a shirt wearing player should be able to physically defend himself against a armor wearing opponent, but when a strike is made each player should suffer accordingly.
BTW magic is a whole different ball game when it comes to fighting monsters.
-Hunt'n
Yes because I read the quote as it's written and as it's been said repeatedly on this and other forums. What HJ plans to do is divorce what your armor LOOKS like from its stats. If a piece of armor has, to borrow from D&D, an AC of 3 then what does it matter if it's made of metal or leather or cloth? AC is AC. If, to make that acceptable, you like to think of the cloth as being magically imbued, well its your world too so go for it.
Yes I can acept that.
[b][quote]Originally posted by HJ-SiscaI can accept that because it will allow players to create their hero to look the way they envision it and that, to me, is much more immersive than having every character of the same race/class/level look exactly alike. [/b][/quote]
In WoW all players were heavily armored but they had quite a variety of appearances.
[b][quote]Originally posted by HJ-SiscaI guess it's just a difference in what we're looking for in a game. I play games to escape from reality not to try and emulate it. If I wanted to emulate reality I'd play Battlefield 2, but I've done my time in the military and while I can think of a lot of adjectives to describe the experience "fun" isn't at the top of the list
[/b][/quote]
I don't think we are all that different. I like fantasy, but if the physics or properties are different than what I would otherwise expect, I want to know that... like magic imbued shirts.
-Hunt'n
-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
Lot of information to dig through. But I think I recall reading that your weapons will level with you and be upgradeable(word?)
As I said I think I read that in one of the weekly biweekly interviews.
I love the idea. I know that Sometimes it is a big let down to change weapons. You need the more powerful weapon but it looks like poo poo. It happens more with changing clothing and armor. But I know that there have been a few times where I almost didn't take a better weapon due to it's oogliness.
Here is a question, should probably post it in Royce"s thread. But this is about weapons and armor/clothing. How many have played games where you could not preview the item before you picked it up? Or having multiple choices from a quest. Pick one of four items. They are all comparable, let's say, and you had no way of knowing what it would look like?
So let's vote.
Hopefully everything in this game will be able to be previewed before accepting. It is especially frustrating with items that bind to you on pick up. So then you can't even sell the undesirable piece of gear.
Here I am stuck running around in the fuchsia armor of everyoneshunsme for three more levels. Gotta love that.
You saw Lord of the Rings right? Specifically The Return of the King. Legolas took out an entire war elephant thingy and all the men on it by himself in nothing more then his clothing and maybe some light leather. Using just a bow no less!
Heros in fantasy literature are always doing fantastic things that are beyond belief. That's what makes them heros instead of just a commoner. Heros stand out. They don't look like anyone else, and that's what we're attemtping to add to the game with the character customization system.
You might as well give up arguing, some people will accept it others will not, personally I'll happily add a little to my disbelief "level" in order not to end up following Tuaren #1023 (which I have actually done - the poor guy must have thought he was being stalked!!!!)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Currently Playing: GW2
Currently Following: Elder Scrolls Online
Games in my wake: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
Just a minor note...
When I play MMORPGs I attempt to turn off as much superfluous screen clutter (and chatbox clutter) as I possibly can -- especially Player Names. I find them utterly distracting.
Due to this, I tend to really LOOK at other player characters trying to note minor differences so I can identify them easily.
Therefore, any time a game developer allows players to create personal wardrobes for their characters, I always think this is a step in the right direction. I would like to be able to visually identify players (and optionally to click-target them to confirm their names if necessary) just as I would recognize someone walking down the street.
~ Ancient Membership ~
Interesting, SpiritofGame. I'm a little different. I tend to OCD out a bit and, like, need to see people's names. I mean, I like what you've described better in theory, but, like, there've been times when I've chased after people to see exactly what their name was, or how to pronounce it.
So, yeah, I click on people allot... 
.
(P.S. Here's hoping this weeks screens are of Stoneborn. Most especially Qwi.)
But as fantastic as it was, what Legolas did looked believable (in a fantasy sort of way
) as compared to a warrior standing there swinging his sword with a dragon who could step on him and finish the fight in a second. Of course in the game, the dragon never does step on him soooo, I gues he is just lucky and the dragon is stupid. 
-Hunt'n
-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
Perhaps the dragon is just to slow to step on the warrior. Perhaps a sword in the foot leaves the dragon too open for this type of attack to work. With that long neck and big wings, can the dragon even stomp with much acuracy? Would it be smart of the dragon to put the warrior in a position under him?
Combat is not simply, I am bigger so I will smash you!
pie.
Your just so gullible about what is credible! Ok that was said in jest. I concede. I guess these kinds of fights just don't look realistic to my fantasy sensibilities.
-Hunt'n
-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
Heh. I'm new to this thread but enjoying the discussion. Please don't stop!
The more accurate portrayal of a stereotypical fantasy world is, from LOTR, the scene where they are fighting over the grave of Gimli's cousin in the Mines. Forward to that scene with your DVD player and study it carefully because there will be a quizz...
...quizz time!!
What are the villians wearing and what are their body types? What are the heroes wearing and what are their body types? Are you watching the choreography of that skirmish? How the heck is Frodo surviving? (Hint: until that one, lucky shot...his mithril didn't add a thing to his combat or evasion). Are you beginning to see where wardrobe has very little to do with maximizing your skill? Now what if Gandalf were wearing armor instead of a robe? What would happen with his skill and why should that matter in a game?
If you can accept this battle scene as being "fantastically correct," then you're good to go for Hero's Journey.
Heck yes I am good to go for Hero's Journey.
While I love finding rare and valuable loot drops (no idea what HJ plans for this), I have always tended to feel that the majority of a player's abilities should be innate -- meaning, based on the character's skills (stats) rather than the quality of the gear. Not to say that "buffs" are unwelcome, they certainly are nice, but I would rather depend on the character's accumulated skills, overall.
Of course, for example, a wizard's staff seems important -- always seemed to be important to Gandalf to the point he was never without it and to have "your staff broken" was a very, VERY bad thing (ask Saruman).
Now, personally, I like Rangers (info coming out soon on Wizards, Necros and Rangers, btw) so, to me, my choice of bow is really, really important -- and either buying or finding a great one or having a favorite one "level up" with you. So that sometimes "style" seems far more important than "buffs."
So, I guess I am saying, if HJ takes the position where skills and stats are very important, and items such as armor and weapons are good but definitely of secondary importance, I think this would be fine with me.
I also remember in past MMORPGs when my character had to get new armor or a weapon, I wasn't always really happy with that IF it changed my character's "look" in a way that I did not like.
Okay, here's the Orc fight at Thorin's tomb with buffs and items:
*Boromir slams door* "Oh FFS! They have a Cave Troll!"
*Aragorn* "Ack! Is he buffed, what's his equip, does he have the Great Thumper Hammer of Numenor?!"
*Legolas* "Don't worry, my bow has awesome Rapid Shot and Multi-Shot plus really nice AoE fire damage!"
*Gimli* "I have the Great Slicing Axe of Fundin with super-high DPS lightning damage procs!"
*Merry and Pippin together* "Snaps! We don't have crap!"
*Samwise* "Don't worry fellas, I got the Great Frying Pan of Goblin Whacking!"
*Gandalf* "Gather on me! I'll put uber defense and agility buffs on you all!"
*Frodo* "Heh, don't worry about me, I got the Great Waistcoat of Anti-Wild Boar Skewering. I'll be fine!"
~~~
Sorry, once I got going I couldn't stop...
~ Ancient Membership ~
-- I need a nerf --