I love the idea of ffa pvp but I guess I am in a very small group of players who do ? I dont call players who dont like pvp carebears thats just not their style of play and I am looking forward to Roma Victor which seems like the best idea for ffa pvp I have seen yet. I want the harshest penalties for death in my mmo's and non-level based pvp with items being generic and skill being the deciding factor but thats a just a dream I hope comes true.
[quote]Originally posted by Infliction [b]Well I got disgusted and stopped reading about halfway through page 2 of replies. While I'm not a PKer at all, and generally hate PKers in general, FFA PVP is a huge help for immersion if nothing else.[/quote]
You allegedly "hate PKers" but you were disgusted by people mocking some loser who considers himself a "wolf" preying on "sheep" for killing weaker characters in games. I don't sense the hate in you, Luke.
Homes in games SHOULD be susceptable to break-ins and theft since we've got NPC guards in my makebelieve game inside my lil head. Of course protections could be purchased by a player go guard against such things (Security sytems in a sci-fi game, hired guards or goons in a fantasy game, or whatever.)
What possible reason would I have for wanting to play a game like that? I don't see how it's supposed to be fun, "Oh look, I came home from work, logged in, and my virtual house was robbed, how exciting that I lost all those neat things I had collected without me being able to do anything about it." I don't see how I'd possibly find that enjoyable gameplay, especially since there's no realistic possability of revenge, of hunting the perpetrator down, or of getting the legal system against him - we all know people who do this kind of thing either use disposable characters, level up to the point you can't really touch them, or just use alts to avoid the consequences.
BTW, I didn't go with it on my first reply, but did anyone else sense a nature documentary soundtrack going when the guy was calling himself a wolf? "And here we see the ubergeek preparing for the hunt. He gulps down his mountain dew to increase his alertness, while his pasty skin basks in the glow of his monitor. He watches the screen for signs of his prey... and finds it! Yes, he has found someone who is lower-level than him, wearing gear appropriate for fighting NPCs and not players, and who is clearly engrossed in their current activity. Using his mouse and keyboard with great dexterity, he takes his character, equipped with gear specialized for killing other players, and starts the fight. Now with a few mice clicks and keyboard taps, we see him achieve his video game victory. We see his victory behavior as he jumps from his seat and pumps his fist, while shouting 'I am the wolf, bitch'. After recovering his breath from this extreme exertion, he moves to his next victim."
Originally posted by Luzario Consensual PVP allows cowardice to go rampant.
Let us take World of Peacecraft err I mean warcraft for instance. This is a game where no one can be punished. A game where someone can mouth off at you and you can do nothing about it. You cannot defend your honor in this game and you have absolutely no control over anything. It is not "your" game it is "Blizzards" game and you can go on "their" ride but it won't ever be "your" journey. Mmmorpgs like Everquest & Star wars galaxies encourage players to "hide" behind an invisible wall of protection allowing them to be greedy & selfish thus destroying the community.
In mmorpgs I am considered the "Wolf" ... I prey on the "Sheep", if "Wolves" get in the way of my sheep then I'll kill those "Wolves", I don't expect non-veterans to understand this. In a game where everyone is a sheep and there are no wolves you're gonna have gay sheep running around all day thinking they are all that when they are realy not.
Long live the old days of MMORPGs.
These are the generations:
1st generation MMORPGS: Barbaric & Ultra Violent (UO, Meridian 59, muds, shadowbane, ac darktide)
3rd Generation: Has not dawned upon us yet. Hopefuly companies will see the light that players need to be challenged with unexpected dangers (think about it).
Luzario
Have you tried EVE online?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
While I completely disagree with the OP how honourable ffa pvp is or his concept of "wolf and sheep," a valid point is made. If in an immature and inarticulate manner. One question first though: How is consenual pvp (in a game or real life) cowardice? To me, greifers and gankers running from equal or higher level players is cowardice in gaming. In life, it would be avoiding confrontation at all just for the sake of avoiding it.
The point the OP makes though, after a fashion, and highlighted in this thread, is why is there such a rift in the gaming community on this subject? Why can't both sides have equal representation in a game? I see no valid reason not to have rewards for pvp. You win such a fight, get an item from the victim/opponent's inventory or some of their gold. PvP adds an element to mmorpgs that has potential to be both exciting (for combat) and flavourful for roleplaying, but why focus games on just one type?
It is more than possible to make a game that features both types of pvp. Its just a matter of balance. For the ffa pvp you make the rewards slightly better (more loot), but the punishment worse: Bounties, being flagged as a pk, possibly having npc guards attack you in towns. With consensual pvp the rewards would be less, but the punishments less as well: No bounties, flags, or having guards attack (because the combat was mutual.)
My only real example of consensual pvp comes from SWG. I built my character to be a duelist. I sucked in large melee battles, but did well in duels. I roleplayed that aspect. And while some might label me a carebear because I only did pvp strictly consensual I still managed to rack up a rather large kill list... Including a couple pre-cu jedi. I've played games since that had the current version of ffa pvp and wasn't as... excited about the combat. The entire game seemed like a boring grind to get to the point where you didn't have to worry about being ganked. I found more thrill and roleplay possibilities (my primary motivation to play) from dueling.
My point is why can't both types be supported in a game? No honour lost and it would make a game world more colorful. And if you think consensual duelists are cowards, tell that to Miyamoto Musashi (One of Japan's greatest swordsmen.)
___________~____________ Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. - Oscar Wilde
Oh look! another "Old UO was the shit and todays games are too carebear and suck". PvP is for fun these days, its faction vs faction. The theme "War" is ,imo a lot better then the theme"Anarchy". 'Defend your honor, give me a break.
Why does the OP remind me of this quote from the X Files:
"I've not played D&D for 10 years without leaning something about courage!"
It's a game, ...honor...lol. He probably does have some point hidden in there somewhere, but his post says so much about his psychology, I can't be bothered to decode it.
Originally posted by zhombie The point the OP makes though, after a fashion, and highlighted in this thread, is why is there such a rift in the gaming community on this subject? Why can't both sides have equal representation in a game? I see no valid reason not to have rewards for pvp. You win such a fight, get an item from the victim/opponent's inventory or some of their gold. PvP adds an element to mmorpgs that has potential to be both exciting (for combat) and flavourful for roleplaying, but why focus games on just one type?
You summed it up unintentionally with your "rewards" for PVP; the people who start threads like this want to gank noobs and take their stuff, their reward is hurting the other person. Hence a system where your 'reward' in PVP would need to be like what you describe, where the key point is not what you get as a reward but that the other guy loses something. While there are plenty of people who want to play a game for fun and don't want to lose stuff they've worked for because someome ganked them. The 'wolves' want to be sure they can hurt the 'sheep', and most people are too smart to pay money for that kind of thing.
Lets face it, "wolves" like the OP don't go for equal fights. On one side, you've got a guy who plays more or longer and so gets to a higher level/skill ranking/etc, equips and trains themselves specifically for PVP, sticks only to targets that their current gear/skill set is suited for, and makes sure to stash all of their valuables somewhere safe (so it doesn't matter if they're looted when they die). On the other, you've got a 'lower level' character who's equipped and possibly trained/specced for PVE, not neccesarily expecting combat at that moment, and who's carrying valuables from their other activities. Where's the "honor" in a one-sided fight like that? Or the interesting gameplay for that matter?
Surely, you have taken basic economics classes (and if you haven't, it's your loss) and are familiar with the "cost of opportunity" concept. Your achievements (loot, gold, items, honor, etc.) in a MMORPG have a very real monetary value, because you invested a substantial amount of your free time into pursuing them, or spent REAL CASH online to purchase them.
If you had taken the time to learn more about economics, you'd know that the "value" of anything is largely subjective. I can buy a work of art from a famous painter for $100,000 dollars and sell it on the street for $2. In England, during the 19th century, there was literally a market surrounding tulips. Sports cards and CCGs also vary in value from week to week. The stuff I acquire IN GAME have no monetary value to me. If I'm not planning on selling for real money, then it has no "real" value.
While we are moving toward a business model where we spend real money on in-game items rather than paying monthly fees, that will still be money (and time) that I had set aside to be wasted anyway. It's not the same as being robbed at all. However....
If the items in a game have "real" monetary value then it would be technically possible for a theif in a game to be CONVICTED OF REAL LIFE THEFT!! Kinda changes the nature of the debate, doesn't it? You want to tell me that the PKer hurts me by robbing me, but you'd be outraged if someone filed charges against a PKer for theft. Guess it's only risky when the risk is entirely on the victim huh?
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore No one fears you in a video game, get over yourself. I always find it funny that people think they are rough and tough because they want FFA PVP in a MMO. Go play CS or another FPS of your choice if you want to PVP because MMO PVP doesn't take much skill, just levels and better items than your opponents.
i disagree, the only reason most people play mmorpg is to show POWER / TOUGhness over the others/ those weaker than you or start pisses other people off, sure some rather makes friend but there is just so much loven you can give before u deside to kick their ass. or else u would just grap a console game and play that for "fun" cause face it, beside the harshness of the mmorpg community, there not really anything else u can do....beside the lame ass same quest from every single mmorpg to the constant lvling, which u do in eveyr single game for console or windows out there.
also wen you run away from anyone in pvp or pk, that mean u are afraid, thus fear do exist. and i see hellot of runing in my days.
of course there is a sense of honour in mmo's, i remember going about my buissness in uo and being ambushed by a group of people...these people killed and robbed me and to me they where dishonourable people. and to make myself feel better or restore my 'honour' i went out of my way to get revenge on these people...it consumed me for days!!! online games are very psychological affairs as they project thousands of peoples egos into a game....honour included!
Originally posted by tanminh i disagree, the only reason most people play mmorpg is to show POWER / TOUGhness over the others/ those weaker than you or start pisses other people off,
pro·jec·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-jkshn) n.
8. Psychology. a. The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, or suppositions to others: Even trained anthropologists have been guilty of unconscious projection of clothing the subjects of their research in theories brought with them into the field (Alex Shoumatoff). b. The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, or desires to someone or something as a naive or unconscious defense against anxiety or guilt.
Originally posted by Darktongue OP needs to grow up and learn that these things are just games.Nothing more nothing less. Entertainment. It sells and sells well.
Perhaps if you feel that non pvp indicates cowardice you might want to explain that to the many armed forces players who frequent those games.
L2p.
So, being in the armed forces renders you incapible of being a coward? Not sure I buy that.
Another thing, I don't play games to nutcup and bake bread, I play them to rip faces off.
Originally posted by tirallum Originally posted by Luzario 2nd generation MMORPGS: Civilized & Peaceful (WOW, EQ, DAOC, SWG, lineage, etc)
lol? But good point in general. Not about the too many carebear unexciting boring games, couldn't care less, but about the too few exciting and fun games nowadays.
Except that every single one of those games (and lineage he's way off base, it's wide open PVP, goof) offers a dedicated open PVP server, so your point is made moot. They grant you the option of playing on an open PVP server in all of the games you listed. Duh.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by darktravesty Originally posted by Darktongue
OP needs to grow up and learn that these things are just games.Nothing more nothing less. Entertainment. It sells and sells well.
Perhaps if you feel that non pvp indicates cowardice you might want to explain that to the many armed forces players who frequent those games.
L2p.
So, being in the armed forces renders you incapible of being a coward? Not sure I buy that.
Another thing, I don't play games to nutcup and bake bread, I play them to rip faces off.
As a former member of the military who led men in combat during two separate military actions I would recommend that if you choose to play games of that type then PLAY THE GAMES THAT OFFER YOU THAT. Shadowbane, Lineage, Lineage II, UO, EVE, etc. Don't try to force games that choose NOT To cater to that mentality to conform to your limited view.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by tanminh i disagree, the only reason most people play mmorpg is to show POWER / TOUGhness over the others/ those weaker than you or start pisses other people off, sure some rather makes friend but there is just so much loven you can give before u deside to kick their ass. or else u would just grap a console game and play that for "fun" cause face it, beside the harshness of the mmorpg community, there not really anything else u can do....beside the lame ass same quest from every single mmorpg to the constant lvling, which u do in eveyr single game for console or windows out there.
also wen you run away from anyone in pvp or pk, that mean u are afraid, thus fear do exist. and i see hellot of runing in my days.
I would disagree with this entirely. Not everybody who plays a game is there to hunt down other people. I play MMORPG's so that I can play a game with my girlfriend, brother, and a few of our friends online without us all having to be crowded into one room to play on a console. Your saying that because we want to enjoy ourselves in a game that we should have to constantly be watching over our shoulders for some asshat 40 levels higher than us to come along and kill us by breathing on us?
I don't even know why this debate still exists honestly. There's PvP games, there's open PvP games, there are consensual PvP games, and there are games with no PvP at all, and games that have more than one of the above features. Find one that fits your style, and play it. Stop trying to shove your viewpoint (and this goes for both sides) down each other's throats. It's not like arguing on a message board is ever going to cause either of the game types to fall out of existance.
And I know I sound all 'holier than thou' with my preaching about this, but seriously, why? Why argue about it? I assume people get on their computer and come to this site to enjoy themselves, so why let yourself get dragged into senseless arguments where you KNOW the end result is your going to be pissed off at somebody? Do you like being pissed? (Granted, some people probobly do). Just let everybody play what they want, without having to sit there shouting carebear, and wolf, and sheep, and whatever BS insults people come up with to call the other side a loser.
god damn it isnt a limited veiw...the limited veiw is created by the people such as your selves that have made our games limited becuase of your limited veiw and caps on how we play....dont compare war to mmo's and dont ask people who want open sandbox games to beleive they have a limited veiw gameplay...theres only one limited veiw on mmorpgs and that is created by the gamers who push limitations onto games and players to turn them into utopia vegetable states
Originally posted by GIRO god damn it isnt a limited veiw...the limited veiw is created by the people such as your selves that have made our games limited becuase of your limited veiw and caps on how we play....dont compare war to mmo's and dont ask people who want open sandbox games to beleive they have a limited veiw gameplay...theres only one limited veiw on mmorpgs and that is created by the gamers who push limitations onto games and players to turn them into utopia vegetable states
PvP games are limited by the PvPers, themselves. You limit what you can risk?
You want unlimited FFA PvP? Risk it all and when you lose, lose it all. Yup. That's right. PermaDeath.
what a bullshit post by our friend emri...its like he talks to me like i havnt expirienced it, and then in the end throws in perma death for some unknown reason. eits like being told your trade by an apprentice you just employed
lots of stuff here I'd want to reply to, but I'll go with this. Permadeath isn't the answer simply because people that want to PvP don't want to grind, simple as that. And we shouldn't have to, any more than a PvE person should to PvP. Items I couldnt give a damn about, for all I care all the items in a good PvP game could be bought from a merchant for basically nothing.
as for wolves and sheep... you make me laugh OP. Ganking noobs does not in any way = PvP. That attitude is why PvPers in general have such a shitty rep all around. I'm out to fight others who want to fight, nothing less.
permadeath would be an interesting idea in a pvp game. though you spawn back with your char just not your skills or equipment.... granted then you would need to make a mmorpg without grind and thats unimaginable. after all you need to get players paying that monthly subscribtion.
perhaps you only lose your combat skills. and combat skills have no grind
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Comments
Here's that Terry Tate episode I was referring to: Equal Opportunity Hitter-machine Baby
and here's a link to the rest of the epidodes:
Terry Tate
{(RIP)} SWG
[quote]Originally posted by Infliction
[b]Well I got disgusted and stopped reading about halfway through page 2 of replies. While I'm not a PKer at all, and generally hate PKers in general, FFA PVP is a huge help for immersion if nothing else.[/quote]
You allegedly "hate PKers" but you were disgusted by people mocking some loser who considers himself a "wolf" preying on "sheep" for killing weaker characters in games. I don't sense the hate in you, Luke.
What possible reason would I have for wanting to play a game like that? I don't see how it's supposed to be fun, "Oh look, I came home from work, logged in, and my virtual house was robbed, how exciting that I lost all those neat things I had collected without me being able to do anything about it." I don't see how I'd possibly find that enjoyable gameplay, especially since there's no realistic possability of revenge, of hunting the perpetrator down, or of getting the legal system against him - we all know people who do this kind of thing either use disposable characters, level up to the point you can't really touch them, or just use alts to avoid the consequences.
BTW, I didn't go with it on my first reply, but did anyone else sense a nature documentary soundtrack going when the guy was calling himself a wolf? "And here we see the ubergeek preparing for the hunt. He gulps down his mountain dew to increase his alertness, while his pasty skin basks in the glow of his monitor. He watches the screen for signs of his prey... and finds it! Yes, he has found someone who is lower-level than him, wearing gear appropriate for fighting NPCs and not players, and who is clearly engrossed in their current activity. Using his mouse and keyboard with great dexterity, he takes his character, equipped with gear specialized for killing other players, and starts the fight. Now with a few mice clicks and keyboard taps, we see him achieve his video game victory. We see his victory behavior as he jumps from his seat and pumps his fist, while shouting 'I am the wolf, bitch'. After recovering his breath from this extreme exertion, he moves to his next victim."
To make it as simple as I can....
I AGREE.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
While I completely disagree with the OP how honourable ffa pvp is or his concept of "wolf and sheep," a valid point is made. If in an immature and inarticulate manner. One question first though: How is consenual pvp (in a game or real life) cowardice? To me, greifers and gankers running from equal or higher level players is cowardice in gaming. In life, it would be avoiding confrontation at all just for the sake of avoiding it.
The point the OP makes though, after a fashion, and highlighted in this thread, is why is there such a rift in the gaming community on this subject? Why can't both sides have equal representation in a game? I see no valid reason not to have rewards for pvp. You win such a fight, get an item from the victim/opponent's inventory or some of their gold. PvP adds an element to mmorpgs that has potential to be both exciting (for combat) and flavourful for roleplaying, but why focus games on just one type?
It is more than possible to make a game that features both types of pvp. Its just a matter of balance. For the ffa pvp you make the rewards slightly better (more loot), but the punishment worse: Bounties, being flagged as a pk, possibly having npc guards attack you in towns. With consensual pvp the rewards would be less, but the punishments less as well: No bounties, flags, or having guards attack (because the combat was mutual.)
My only real example of consensual pvp comes from SWG. I built my character to be a duelist. I sucked in large melee battles, but did well in duels. I roleplayed that aspect. And while some might label me a carebear because I only did pvp strictly consensual I still managed to rack up a rather large kill list... Including a couple pre-cu jedi. I've played games since that had the current version of ffa pvp and wasn't as... excited about the combat. The entire game seemed like a boring grind to get to the point where you didn't have to worry about being ganked. I found more thrill and roleplay possibilities (my primary motivation to play) from dueling.
My point is why can't both types be supported in a game? No honour lost and it would make a game world more colorful. And if you think consensual duelists are cowards, tell that to Miyamoto Musashi (One of Japan's greatest swordsmen.)
___________~____________
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. - Oscar Wilde
PvP is for fun these days, its faction vs faction. The theme "War" is ,imo a lot better then the theme"Anarchy". 'Defend your honor, give me a break.
Why does the OP remind me of this quote from the X Files:
"I've not played D&D for 10 years without leaning something about courage!"
It's a game, ...honor...lol. He probably does have some point hidden in there somewhere, but his post says so much about his psychology, I can't be bothered to decode it.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
You summed it up unintentionally with your "rewards" for PVP; the people who start threads like this want to gank noobs and take their stuff, their reward is hurting the other person. Hence a system where your 'reward' in PVP would need to be like what you describe, where the key point is not what you get as a reward but that the other guy loses something. While there are plenty of people who want to play a game for fun and don't want to lose stuff they've worked for because someome ganked them. The 'wolves' want to be sure they can hurt the 'sheep', and most people are too smart to pay money for that kind of thing.
Lets face it, "wolves" like the OP don't go for equal fights. On one side, you've got a guy who plays more or longer and so gets to a higher level/skill ranking/etc, equips and trains themselves specifically for PVP, sticks only to targets that their current gear/skill set is suited for, and makes sure to stash all of their valuables somewhere safe (so it doesn't matter if they're looted when they die). On the other, you've got a 'lower level' character who's equipped and possibly trained/specced for PVE, not neccesarily expecting combat at that moment, and who's carrying valuables from their other activities. Where's the "honor" in a one-sided fight like that? Or the interesting gameplay for that matter?
Domoclus wrote:
Surely, you have taken basic economics classes (and if you haven't, it's your loss) and are familiar with the "cost of opportunity" concept. Your achievements (loot, gold, items, honor, etc.) in a MMORPG have a very real monetary value, because you invested a substantial amount of your free time into pursuing them, or spent REAL CASH online to purchase them.
If you had taken the time to learn more about economics, you'd know that the "value" of anything is largely subjective. I can buy a work of art from a famous painter for $100,000 dollars and sell it on the street for $2. In England, during the 19th century, there was literally a market surrounding tulips. Sports cards and CCGs also vary in value from week to week. The stuff I acquire IN GAME have no monetary value to me. If I'm not planning on selling for real money, then it has no "real" value.
While we are moving toward a business model where we spend real money on in-game items rather than paying monthly fees, that will still be money (and time) that I had set aside to be wasted anyway. It's not the same as being robbed at all. However....
If the items in a game have "real" monetary value then it would be technically possible for a theif in a game to be CONVICTED OF REAL LIFE THEFT!! Kinda changes the nature of the debate, doesn't it? You want to tell me that the PKer hurts me by robbing me, but you'd be outraged if someone filed charges against a PKer for theft. Guess it's only risky when the risk is entirely on the victim huh?
i disagree, the only reason most people play mmorpg is to show POWER / TOUGhness over the others/ those weaker than you or start pisses other people off, sure some rather makes friend but there is just so much loven you can give before u deside to kick their ass. or else u would just grap a console game and play that for "fun" cause face it, beside the harshness of the mmorpg community, there not really anything else u can do....beside the lame ass same quest from every single mmorpg to the constant lvling, which u do in eveyr single game for console or windows out there.
also wen you run away from anyone in pvp or pk, that mean u are afraid, thus fear do exist. and i see hellot of runing in my days.
C
pro·jec·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-jkshn) n.
8. Psychology.
a. The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, or suppositions to others: Even trained anthropologists have been guilty of unconscious projection of clothing the subjects of their research in theories brought with them into the field (Alex Shoumatoff).
b. The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, or desires to someone or something as a naive or unconscious defense against anxiety or guilt.
Another thing, I don't play games to nutcup and bake bread, I play them to rip faces off.
Except that every single one of those games (and lineage he's way off base, it's wide open PVP, goof) offers a dedicated open PVP server, so your point is made moot. They grant you the option of playing on an open PVP server in all of the games you listed. Duh.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Another thing, I don't play games to nutcup and bake bread, I play them to rip faces off.
As a former member of the military who led men in combat during two separate military actions I would recommend that if you choose to play games of that type then PLAY THE GAMES THAT OFFER YOU THAT. Shadowbane, Lineage, Lineage II, UO, EVE, etc. Don't try to force games that choose NOT To cater to that mentality to conform to your limited view.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
also wen you run away from anyone in pvp or pk, that mean u are afraid, thus fear do exist. and i see hellot of runing in my days.
I would disagree with this entirely. Not everybody who plays a game is there to hunt down other people. I play MMORPG's so that I can play a game with my girlfriend, brother, and a few of our friends online without us all having to be crowded into one room to play on a console. Your saying that because we want to enjoy ourselves in a game that we should have to constantly be watching over our shoulders for some asshat 40 levels higher than us to come along and kill us by breathing on us?
I don't even know why this debate still exists honestly. There's PvP games, there's open PvP games, there are consensual PvP games, and there are games with no PvP at all, and games that have more than one of the above features. Find one that fits your style, and play it. Stop trying to shove your viewpoint (and this goes for both sides) down each other's throats. It's not like arguing on a message board is ever going to cause either of the game types to fall out of existance.
And I know I sound all 'holier than thou' with my preaching about this, but seriously, why? Why argue about it? I assume people get on their computer and come to this site to enjoy themselves, so why let yourself get dragged into senseless arguments where you KNOW the end result is your going to be pissed off at somebody? Do you like being pissed? (Granted, some people probobly do). Just let everybody play what they want, without having to sit there shouting carebear, and wolf, and sheep, and whatever BS insults people come up with to call the other side a loser.
PvP is fine. PvE is fine. 'Nuff said.
C
PvP games are limited by the PvPers, themselves. You limit what you can risk?
You want unlimited FFA PvP? Risk it all and when you lose, lose it all. Yup. That's right. PermaDeath.
Huh? What? Yeah, I thought so.
C
lots of stuff here I'd want to reply to, but I'll go with this. Permadeath isn't the answer simply because people that want to PvP don't want to grind, simple as that. And we shouldn't have to, any more than a PvE person should to PvP. Items I couldnt give a damn about, for all I care all the items in a good PvP game could be bought from a merchant for basically nothing.
as for wolves and sheep... you make me laugh OP. Ganking noobs does not in any way = PvP. That attitude is why PvPers in general have such a shitty rep all around. I'm out to fight others who want to fight, nothing less.
permadeath would be an interesting idea in a pvp game. though you spawn back with your char just not your skills or equipment.... granted then you would need to make a mmorpg without grind and thats unimaginable. after all you need to get players paying that monthly subscribtion.
perhaps you only lose your combat skills. and combat skills have no grind
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
C