Originally posted by Luzario Consensual PVP allows cowardice to go rampant.
Let us take World of Peacecraft err I mean warcraft for instance. This is a game where no one can be punished. A game where someone can mouth off at you and you can do nothing about it. You cannot defend your honor in this game and you have absolutely no control over anything. It is not "your" game it is "Blizzards" game and you can go on "their" ride but it won't ever be "your" journey. Mmmorpgs like Everquest & Star wars galaxies encourage players to "hide" behind an invisible wall of protection allowing them to be greedy & selfish thus destroying the community.
In mmorpgs I am considered the "Wolf" ... I prey on the "Sheep", if "Wolves" get in the way of my sheep then I'll kill those "Wolves", I don't expect non-veterans to understand this. In a game where everyone is a sheep and there are no wolves you're gonna have gay sheep running around all day thinking they are all that when they are realy not.
Long live the old days of MMORPGs.
These are the generations:
1st generation MMORPGS: Barbaric & Ultra Violent (UO, Meridian 59, muds, shadowbane, ac darktide)
3rd Generation: Has not dawned upon us yet. Hopefuly companies will see the light that players need to be challenged with unexpected dangers (think about it).
Luzario
2nd generation mmorpgs were created by the exact same people who post this garbage. People who abused all out pvp , griefed others and exploited the pvp system of the first generation games. People play to have fun and relax.....not be screwed over by the minority of super superior gamers out there. I can hold my own....some arent so fortunate especially people new to these games in the first place.
Would I like to see more penalty.....sure. But there is no need for one, I can enjoy killing someone even if they dont lose half there gear or monetary belongings.
Seems one fact is missing mr wolf. No animal hunts just for the kill none excepte humans. The reason wolves pray on sheep is becasue they need them...say it with me .. They Are Food. The only analogy that fits this beast of a tale is maybe one of A abusive father beating his child. Good day
Actually, you agreed with me while disagreeing Although that may be partialy my fault, since i'm not really sure I worded my original statements correctly. I DO think that every gamer has the right to enjoy themselves within any game. But then, I think every game should have varied servers, so that if you DO like that games features/systems, you have a way to play it without dragging the other people down. It's one of the reasons I like WoW (although I don't play it anymore) they have both open PvP and regular servers. I think every game should do this.
It works in WoW because the PvP system was part of the games conception.
You cant just plonk PvP inside a previously PvE-only MMO. The character classes would have been designed to work together not fight each other..it would be a balancing nightmare. And then once you've redesigned the classes you'll need to go back and redesign every mob in game cus they will now be out of whack with the new tweaks/nerfs.
Let people play what kind of game they want. People should find the game that has the most features/options that they like, which unfortunately is sometimes a game that doesn't have the right kind of playstyle for them (say...people that like Lineage II but hate open PvP). This is why I think every game should have multiple servers, even if it's only two of them, so that both types of people can play a game they will enjoy without screwing up the other persons.
OK, lets take the PvP out of L2 on a server or two for non-PvP'rs. Roleplayers "we want our own server too with more quests" Casual Gamers "we want a server with increased drop and xp rates to suit our 10 hour a week game time" Parents "we need a server for minor's where the chat filter cant be bypassed" and so on....You cant possibly please all the players all the time, and when you try youre doomed to fail (there are plenty of precendents).
It's the reason my gf, brother and friends don't play on open PvP games :P so we can enjoy ourselves.
Exactly, exactly, exactly. Thats your right, thats your freedom of choice right there...and if ever any of your fellow gamers start grumbling for open PvP pull out their tongues and feed them to the gulls: they'll eat any old rubbish
In order to slay this monster, we will need to totally remove levels. Levels create a finite end to a game, which is why they call it "end game." In my experiences with MMO's, leveling was usually a grind, amd became quite boring. However when I played WoW, I thought it was a nice change with the easy leveling. I was dead wrong. I got to 60 quickly, and then it was hard to really set a goal. I could do instances, which became extremely repetitive. The crafting was pointless, because you could get better items by mindlessly going through an instance killing the same mob over and over again. And that brings us to PvP.
The PvP in WoW, to say the least was very pointless. Even when they released the so called "Honor System" it was mind numbing. Kill people to get items to kill more people with nothing at risk. Wait a minute. This seems a little repetitive and non-thought provoking. Kind of like leveling. There "Battlegrounds" were very similar to this, hoarding people in instances and letting them buy gear to kill more people in the exact same spot they killed them before, sound familiar? Repetitive.
In games without levels, you don't see a level bobbing over someones head. Either in real life as a matter of fact. Skill systems are more logical, you use something, you get better with it. You swing a hammer enough, eventually you'll hit the nail on the head every time instead of your thumb.
Classes also limit a game. To use the most well known example, WoW, you see a level 60 warrior. Don't expect too many suprises from him. You already know what "Skills" he has and you already know how hard he'll hit by seeing his weapon. With a skill system, who knows, that guy could be an apple picker with a sword, or just a hungry barbarian stealing someones apples. The RPing factor has died in many modern MMO's, because people are limited to classes and levels.
When SWG switched to a leveling system it changed things. Instead of being the guy with the rifle that may or may not be able to blow your head off, it switched to people knowing who could kill them by their level. Once it switched to a class and non-skill based system (Because the devs are retarded) it severely LIMITED what someone could do in that game. And now that game is a former shell of itself.
In a true skill based game, if you didn't like fighting, you could craft, or entertain, the possibilities are endless to what you could do. I don't necessarily agree with the OP and his statements, but I would like to see an MMO where there are RISKS and rewards for PvP, and I believe skill based games are a step in that direction.
As far as the "wolf" and "sheep" analogies go, what a joke. I like PvP and all, but to say that is just an insult to any gamer who doesn't like your certain playstyle and makes you look dumb. "Better watch out I'm the big bad wolf!"
Now, to dismantle your argument. Firstly, in a video game, Honor does not exist, it may be mistaken for respect, but there isnt honor in a video game. Secondly, Calling yourself a "wolf" in a game is a large extent of arrogance and misguidance, as is calling other players "sheep", neither of these is actual in a game.
Thirdly, If you comprehended the work and determiantion it takes to make an MMO, maybe you'd understand why there are few MMOs that you described around.
To treed, your right on alot of points, but I dont agree in hearing you say you reached 60 quickly, for most it takes 4 months of hard work, the PvP isnt really good, but its not as bad as most games. A skill based game like EvE would rock, it's just that it requires incredibly fine tuning to balance everything out, you also have the extra working of finding the best train times for the skills.
In conclusion, read the above article on MMOs and you might see my point, games are meant to be enjoyed by as many people as possible, there are alot of select-choice games out there, ever try Shadowbane? You might enjoy Roma Victor as well. Your getting your games too, so dont be harping on about the "Generation" of games, all of it is choice.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
You cant just plonk PvP inside a previously PvE-only MMO. The character classes would have been designed to work together not fight each other..it would be a balancing nightmare. And then once you've redesigned the classes you'll need to go back and redesign every mob in game cus they will now be out of whack with the new tweaks/nerfs. Actually EQ2 recently added pvp servers and i think its ok.Is there class imbalance?hell yes,but no worse then all the other games and i can quote a few games in which there was much worse imbalance despite been build with pvp centric to the game. DAoC pre archer nerf(remember it took over 1 year for them to even nerf them) was a good example with 5-7 archers holding a wall against a force of 50. The tank mage in UO is another example(old days). It can be done .At least the one class everyone seems to want to be nerfed in EQ2 the fury is actually only overpowered in lower levels and has some mortal enemies like the brigand and conjurors that will easily kill them. Reason EQ2 made this transition was because it adjusted the dmg of spells,weapons etc to pvp .Say a assasin can use a skill and hit for 10k in pve if this was left with same dmg in pvp he would one shot all classes but instead the skill has been scaled down to say 3k dmg if he hits a player (still devastating but not near killable) and they let armor play an important factor in abosrbing dmg. Some spells even have no pvp effect or a different effect.IE threat reducer in pve works as clearing you as a target in pvp.
Or in other words it allows egotistical leetis jerks to run around killing safe easy targets for fun. There is a word for what you describe, griefing. Obviously people got to where they didn't want to have to worry every second of game time if they were gonna get griefed. This is my opinion of why that form of game died. The majority of the market has become more casual and thus the majority of the money. Besides most games allow for a duel challenge
Originally posted by hercules Originally posted by KariTR
You cant just plonk PvP inside a previously PvE-only MMO. The character classes would have been designed to work together not fight each other..it would be a balancing nightmare. And then once you've redesigned the classes you'll need to go back and redesign every mob in game cus they will now be out of whack with the new tweaks/nerfs. Reason EQ2 made this transition was because it adjusted the dmg of spells,weapons etc to pvp .Say a assasin can use a skill and hit for 10k in pve if this was left with same dmg in pvp he would one shot all classes but instead the skill has been scaled down to say 3k dmg if he hits a player (still devastating but not near killable) and they let armor play an important factor in abosrbing dmg. Some spells even have no pvp effect or a different effect.IE threat reducer in pve works as clearing you as a target in pvp.
I dont see how our two statements differ, do you?
Neither of us can know how many man hours were spent on the changes you mentioned, but you can be sure those hours were spent to the detriment of other areas of the game.
Take Vanguard (the above poster has a link to an article that imo is total hogwash but anyway). I was very excited about a game that didnt appear to be following a trend, that would allow you professions other than an Adventurer, that yes even dared to cater to a more mature playerbase. Now Im hearing that it will have Raids, and PvP...oh and "by the way did we mention our Diplomacy System wouldnt be as complex as we initially envisaged?" You betcha it wont!
I just dont understand why players are demanding all from one game. If I want my fix of diplomacy and crafting I go to a NWN RP world. If Im in the mood for PvP then its L2. If im hungering for quality quests then I will probably choose a single-player game....and please note that only one of those games requires a monthly subscription.
Can all of these things be done well in one single world? I hope VSOH proves that yes it can: we have another year or so to find out I guess.
Originally posted by treed0223 In games without levels, you don't see a level bobbing over someones head. You dont see it in the PvP worlds I participate in either, though I believe there are cheats out there that read levels for you. Skill systems are more logical, you use something, you get better with it. You swing a hammer enough, eventually you'll hit the nail on the head every time instead of your thumb. I agree with you that skill systems are nice and logical. They have to be relatively complex though if you want to avoid the AFK skill spammer...wonder what his thumbs look like
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore No one fears you in a video game, get over yourself.
ROFL, no doubt.
PvP in online video games is a peacock of many feathers. One must not call into question the difference in colors, direct your indignance toward the bird itself.
Originally posted by KariTR Originally posted by treed0223 In games without levels, you don't see a level bobbing over someones head. You dont see it in the PvP worlds I participate in either, though I believe there are cheats out there that read levels for you. Skill systems are more logical, you use something, you get better with it. You swing a hammer enough, eventually you'll hit the nail on the head every time instead of your thumb. I agree with you that skill systems are nice and logical. They have to be relatively complex though if you want to avoid the AFK skill spammer...wonder what his thumbs look like
Edit: I do think we are going waaaay OT here. Not necesarrily. I believe there is a direct corelation with types of PvP and skill/level systems. Most of the level systems have very weak crafting systems due to being able to acess better items from raids, etc. (Which leads to item based pvp) and most of the skill based games make crafting a major skill and most of the items are equal in statistics, which leads to a more skill based PvP, which is the root of this arguement because more people favor the games with item based PvP that is most often consensual, and most all skill based systems have non-consensual pvp, by nature (Less to lose because you bought the item, not spent 10 hours in an instance), and that leads to less skill based games being made due to the followers not being the majority (although i believe there is a large chunk of mmo gamers that would like to see one.) and those players feeling like outcasts, calling others carebear sheep and calling themselves wolves. So not totally irrelevant..;)
So it seems Luzarius is back under a new yet to close name and preaching to forums again about how wonderful pvp is and everything else is a kiddies game.
Originally posted by rekkor Or in other words it allows egotistical leetis jerks to run around killing safe easy targets for fun. There is a word for what you describe, griefing. Obviously people got to where they didn't want to have to worry every second of game time if they were gonna get griefed. This is my opinion of why that form of game died. The majority of the market has become more casual and thus the majority of the money. Besides most games allow for a duel challenge
I agree with you wholeheartedly. However, I'm one of the nice people who went around killing those self apointed online philistines and wouldn't have had it any other way. UO could get your heart pounding and the adrenaline racing. The risks were modest and the rewards were always great. Knowing that you annihilated another person who was trying to steal from or even murder you or someone else still brings a smile to my face.
Know why they don't make a game (yet) for us old school UO/AC/whatever PvP idealists? Because people vote with their dollars for fun, and then come company cashes in and makes that game, and then we play it too (sometimes for as much as 2 months ). You see the problem? The gaming companies don't give a rip about how kewl UO was and how amazing it would be to have a really harsh ruleset like that in a graphically updated game. There's no money in it.
And then a game like Darkfall comes along trying to do something about it, and well suffice it to say, I think the opinionated PvP enthusiasts sometimes widen the gap with their in forum behaviors. People do read what we say here, but some people tend not to respect their fellow gamers. Remember that it isn't the guy in the post before you's fault that many of todays games are watered down, homogonized and sanitzed for mass consumption.
How many of these Grandma's Boy basement dweller posts do we need?
Every week someone creates a post about wanting a "challenge" and all MMOs are "carebear." Let me give you some free advise. You want a challenge? Go to graduate school, learn a foreign language, take banjo lessons, volunteer at a hospital, go outside, get fresh air...to name a few examples. Video games are a simple hobby for wasting time or winding down after a hard days work(or going to classes). A bit of a reality check for you, no one in the real world gives a damn about your gaming skills. A bunch of pixels on a computer monitor does not represent a persons level of courage.
Originally posted by achesoma How many of these Grandma's Boy basement dweller posts do we need? Every week someone creates a post about wanting a "challenge" and all MMOs are "carebear." Let me give you some free advise. You want a challenge? Go to graduate school, learn a foreign language, take banjo lessons, volunteer at a hospital, go outside, get fresh air...to name a few examples. Video games are a simple hobby for wasting time or winding down after a hard days work(or going to classes). A bit of a reality check for you, no one in the real world gives a damn about your gaming skills. A bunch of pixels on a computer monitor does not represent a persons level of courage.
Originally posted by achesoma How many of these Grandma's Boy basement dweller posts do we need? Every week someone creates a post about wanting a "challenge" and all MMOs are "carebear." Let me give you some free advise. You want a challenge? Go to graduate school, learn a foreign language, take banjo lessons, volunteer at a hospital, go outside, get fresh air...to name a few examples. Video games are a simple hobby for wasting time or winding down after a hard days work(or going to classes). A bit of a reality check for you, no one in the real world gives a damn about your gaming skills. A bunch of pixels on a computer monitor does not represent a persons level of courage.
Originally posted by achesoma How many of these Grandma's Boy basement dweller posts do we need? Every week someone creates a post about wanting a "challenge" and all MMOs are "carebear." Let me give you some free advise. You want a challenge? Go to graduate school, learn a foreign language, take banjo lessons, volunteer at a hospital, go outside, get fresh air...to name a few examples. Video games are a simple hobby for wasting time or winding down after a hard days work(or going to classes). A bit of a reality check for you, no one in the real world gives a damn about your gaming skills. A bunch of pixels on a computer monitor does not represent a persons level of courage.
LoL, awesome bro......that about sums it up
EDIT
There is generally very little skill involved with PvP in MMO's. For the most part who ever has the highest number / best gear wins.
There may be some skill in a large scale battle where some basic strategy involved but in a one on one its just a simple statisical contests. Whoever has the higher number will generally win.
I agree to the point that generally PvP in MMORPG's aren't very fulfilling as it not really mine skills but game mechanics and limitations who determin the outcome. The best PvP I've had in a MMORPG was in Puzzle Pirates. Might seem laughable at first but as the concept and rules behind the "sword puzzle" are so simple to understand and things like lag don't play a role I know when I win that it's because my "real life" skills are better then the other guy.
Originally posted by anarchyart Originally posted by rekkor Or in other words it allows egotistical leetis jerks to run around killing safe easy targets for fun. There is a word for what you describe, griefing. Obviously people got to where they didn't want to have to worry every second of game time if they were gonna get griefed. This is my opinion of why that form of game died. The majority of the market has become more casual and thus the majority of the money. Besides most games allow for a duel challenge
I agree with you wholeheartedly. However, I'm one of the nice people who went around killing those self apointed online philistines and wouldn't have had it any other way. UO could get your heart pounding and the adrenaline racing. The risks were modest and the rewards were always great. Knowing that you annihilated another person who was trying to steal from or even murder you or someone else still brings a smile to my face.
Know why they don't make a game (yet) for us old school UO/AC/whatever PvP idealists? Because people vote with their dollars for fun, and then come company cashes in and makes that game, and then we play it too (sometimes for as much as 2 months ). You see the problem? The gaming companies don't give a rip about how kewl UO was and how amazing it would be to have a really harsh ruleset like that in a graphically updated game. There's no money in it.
And then a game like Darkfall comes along trying to do something about it, and well suffice it to say, I think the opinionated PvP enthusiasts sometimes widen the gap with their in forum behaviors. People do read what we say here, but some people tend not to respect their fellow gamers. Remember that it isn't the guy in the post before you's fault that many of todays games are watered down, homogonized and sanitzed for mass consumption.
What a lot of you "hard core PvPers" miss, or lack in thought, is the true reason WHY there are a lot of people who dislike it. It's not because they are afraid of a 'challange,' it's the issue of there rearly being a true challange. Most PvP happens with someone who thinks they are special because they are level 50, and decide they want to kill someone many times lower then themselves. In that aspect there's no point to fighting a player unless you're so sad that you need the feeling of 'killing' someone else. Now PvP is great WHEN there's a challange for BOTH players. When either person stands a chanse at being slain by the other, that is a challange. However there are too many assholes who'd stab their grandma in the back rather than look for a fair fight. they are all about how many kills they have instead of how many of those they truely earned. I enjoy fighting a player, but not at the expence of preventing someone much lower than me from enjoying the game too. Nothings worse than being killed several times in a row by an asshole when you pose no threat to him what so ever. In Shadowbane this happened at various times, some dick would kill a level 20 when they are level 50+ (level 20 being off the island but being incapable of even landing a hit on a level 30+). What I did for 'revenge' and to teach people a lesson is turn the tables some. I'd stalk the known 'newbhunters' down and kill them over and over just like they did the low levels, till they whine and cry and eventualy quit the game or try to get a group to attack me (which sometimes worked but I tend to have an ace up my sleave so they never got far without living it down a few times). Without enough people that have some form of honor or those to police the assholes, the love for PvP quickly dies. You want to hunt underleveled characters? Fine, but they should lose nothing when they've no chanse of surviving your onslaught and it should lead up to a bounty on your head to force you into a real fight soon or a later.
yes anarchyart I can agree with you. I had to leave early and wasn't able to finish my post. I was gonna say that also I've grown to dislike all of the hand holding that games do these days. One aspect that made UO so amazingly popular was the fact that death hurt. You felt your loss when you died. Then there is also the thing you mentioned that turning the knife on your would be murderer was so intensly gratifying.
So ok I would think a game where constant pvp is fun when the game is more skill based (that is your personal skill to think on your feet and adjust to all situations) since then no one will have an advantage over you for any reason other than they are just more highly trained. Also most of these games now days have pvp zones where everyone is a target at all times. Its the best of both worlds. So who cares if you can't wander into a newbie area and kill the guy who just started 10 minutes ago. In pvp zones you can be sure that the people that are there are willing to accept the risks of death. Also the enemy can't chat with you wich i find nice. You don't have to listen to their stupid insults when they succeed. I also found a thrill in defeat in a way that I knew that maybe I could learn something from that person. I'ld send a message saying "well played but if you don't mind me asking?". any way i'll cut this short, i could go on for days.
"In mmorpgs I am considered the "Wolf" ... I prey on the "Sheep", if "Wolves" get in the way of my sheep then I'll kill those "Wolves", I don't expect non-veterans to understand this."
In other words, you're the coward that preys on the sheep 20 lvels below you?
Originally posted by achesoma How many of these Grandma's Boy basement dweller posts do we need? Every week someone creates a post about wanting a "challenge" and all MMOs are "carebear." Let me give you some free advise. You want a challenge? Go to graduate school, learn a foreign language, take banjo lessons, volunteer at a hospital, go outside, get fresh air...to name a few examples.
It's pretty easy to target and mock the OP for comparing himself to a feral beast preying on sheep and make some vague and misguided assumption implying that people who take PvP seriously live in basements and have no real life skills (I can already play the banjo!), but in the process of giving him a bunch of Jerry Springer worthy advice you miss the very valid points that he brings up, or maybe like many others you have an anti-Open PvP stance for the wrong reasons and your mind is already closed to the good points he makes. I agree with you that computer games aren't a good way to measure a person's true courage, but very often in MMO's a person's real life traits will come shining through into the way they act in game, especially in the PvP community where teamspeak/ventrilo are commonplace and you can discern this by the good picture you get of what people are like in real life by conversing with them regularly.
Anyone who spends at least some of their free time playing a game, whether it be for PvP, NPC'ing, trade or socialising with people overseas...whatever the reason, I don't see anything wrong with them wanting more of a challenge out of it, or for new games to offer more than old games do when catering for their particular playstyle.
In terms of gaming, I like Open PvP, MMO's and real player skill over gank/item based PvP. Very few games cater to this playstyle, and even less do it well. This is not a complaint, simply a statement of fact. There's good reason for this too, because it seems to be damn hard to make an enjoyable for all, balanced and non restrictive Open PvP system.
A PROPERLY implemented Open PvP system gives plenty of options for hardcore, casual and non-PvP'ers to coexist and benefit each other, whilst not resorting to easy options like instancing and putting up invisible barriers to stop PvP like a vast number of modern MMO's. The reason that corpse camping and newbie griefing is so prevalent in many games attempting to use an open PvP system is purely due to not providing PvP'ers with enough to keep them occupied, combined with most games supporting the ganksquad mentality ie. numbers/items > player skill. Don't get me wrong, I realise that there are minority of PvP'ers who specialise in griefing newbies and the like, but they can only get away with it because of poor game mechanics. Allowing players to create alts, which are 90% used for performing actions players don't want to get a reputation for performing on their mains i.e. griefing/scamming etc. has also not helped this situation.
Still, there is hope with quite a few, new games being developed that seem to want to break the mould a little and maybe at one of them will take MMO PvP a step in the right direction. While I'm waiting maybe I'll go outside and get some fresh air, play "Deliverance" on my banjo while dancing a merry jig and go learn Esperanto...but i suspect things will be the same when i get back.
Originally posted by rpgmachine I agree with you that computer games aren't a good way to measure a person's true courage, but very often in MMO's a person's real life traits will come shining through into the way they act in game, especially in the PvP community where teamspeak/ventrilo are commonplace and you can discern this by the good picture you get of what people are like in real life by conversing with them regularly......
......The reason that corpse camping and newbie griefing is so prevalent in many games attempting to use an open PvP system is purely due to not providing PvP'ers with enough to keep them occupied, combined with most games supporting the ganksquad mentality ie. numbers/items > player skill. Don't get me wrong, I realise that there are minority of PvP'ers who specialise in griefing newbies and the like, but they can only get away with it because of poor game mechanics. ....
Nicely put.
Your behaviour in game does reflect your personality. How you behave in game although "role play" perhaps is entirely governed by yourself.
PvP gaming attracts a certain type of person. In particular it attracts people like the OP, and greifers and gankers and smack talkers and internet bigmen. It attracts other nice people too, but you have to take the good with the bad, and the bad come in a greater proportion.
No matter how clever your game system, malign people will always find the exploit to gank and greif etc. If it is coded out of the game, they will code it back in themselves. Competative play brings out the idiots. There are no multiplayer cheats for online co-operative games. None.
I'm a carebear. I don't have time to waste with this kind of people. I don't enjoy their company, I understand the mindset and I don't like it. There are enough people I don't want to play with in carebear games, without me adding to the % of tossers.
I play the odd FPS/RTS game for my PvP kicks and sometimes even multiplayer Tetris, it's very hard to find a community of nice people only and mainstream games are not the best place to look. I don't find rpg PvP challenging, thats not the experience I am looking for in that kind of game.
I do think that PvP is supported in most MMO's these days. I usually see (and avoid) a PvP server for most titles I buy. Judging solely by the proportion of these kind of servers in WoW, I suspect that only a slim fraction of RPgers are looking for this, but clearly enough for developers to cater for.
There are plenty of PvPcentric mmo's on the market. But to my mind a good game is inclusive not exclusive and should cater to as many audiences at the same time as possible. This is why WoW is my favorite PvP rpg so far. Apart from having hardcore dedicated PvP servers it has a functional dueling system a fun Diablo style PvP active mode and has made the effort to introduce a little varied PvP teamplay settings. None of which affect your game if your are not intrested and you can still play the same game online with your friends who enjoy that kind of thing without being personally subjected to it.
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PvP was the worst part of Eve online. Sorry Eve fans but it was just the same as all the other PvPing, a load of gankers getting their jollies bullying people and ruining their fun.
Comments
Actually, you agreed with me while disagreeing
Although that may be partialy my fault, since i'm not really sure I worded my original statements correctly. I DO think that every gamer has the right to enjoy themselves within any game. But then, I think every game should have varied servers, so that if you DO like that games features/systems, you have a way to play it without dragging the other people down. It's one of the reasons I like WoW (although I don't play it anymore) they have both open PvP and regular servers. I think every game should do this.
It works in WoW because the PvP system was part of the games conception.
You cant just plonk PvP inside a previously PvE-only MMO. The character classes would have been designed to work together not fight each other..it would be a balancing nightmare. And then once you've redesigned the classes you'll need to go back and redesign every mob in game cus they will now be out of whack with the new tweaks/nerfs.
Let people play what kind of game they want. People should find the game that has the most features/options that they like, which unfortunately is sometimes a game that doesn't have the right kind of playstyle for them (say...people that like Lineage II but hate open PvP). This is why I think every game should have multiple servers, even if it's only two of them, so that both types of people can play a game they will enjoy without screwing up the other persons.
OK, lets take the PvP out of L2 on a server or two for non-PvP'rs. Roleplayers "we want our own server too with more quests" Casual Gamers "we want a server with increased drop and xp rates to suit our 10 hour a week game time" Parents "we need a server for minor's where the chat filter cant be bypassed" and so on....You cant possibly please all the players all the time, and when you try youre doomed to fail (there are plenty of precendents).
It's the reason my gf, brother and friends don't play on open PvP games :P so we can enjoy ourselves.
Exactly, exactly, exactly. Thats your right, thats your freedom of choice right there...and if ever any of your fellow gamers start grumbling for open PvP pull out their tongues and feed them to the gulls: they'll eat any old rubbish
In order to slay this monster, we will need to totally remove levels. Levels create a finite end to a game, which is why they call it "end game." In my experiences with MMO's, leveling was usually a grind, amd became quite boring. However when I played WoW, I thought it was a nice change with the easy leveling. I was dead wrong. I got to 60 quickly, and then it was hard to really set a goal. I could do instances, which became extremely repetitive. The crafting was pointless, because you could get better items by mindlessly going through an instance killing the same mob over and over again. And that brings us to PvP.
The PvP in WoW, to say the least was very pointless. Even when they released the so called "Honor System" it was mind numbing. Kill people to get items to kill more people with nothing at risk. Wait a minute. This seems a little repetitive and non-thought provoking. Kind of like leveling. There "Battlegrounds" were very similar to this, hoarding people in instances and letting them buy gear to kill more people in the exact same spot they killed them before, sound familiar? Repetitive.
In games without levels, you don't see a level bobbing over someones head. Either in real life as a matter of fact. Skill systems are more logical, you use something, you get better with it. You swing a hammer enough, eventually you'll hit the nail on the head every time instead of your thumb.
Classes also limit a game. To use the most well known example, WoW, you see a level 60 warrior. Don't expect too many suprises from him. You already know what "Skills" he has and you already know how hard he'll hit by seeing his weapon. With a skill system, who knows, that guy could be an apple picker with a sword, or just a hungry barbarian stealing someones apples. The RPing factor has died in many modern MMO's, because people are limited to classes and levels.
When SWG switched to a leveling system it changed things. Instead of being the guy with the rifle that may or may not be able to blow your head off, it switched to people knowing who could kill them by their level. Once it switched to a class and non-skill based system (Because the devs are retarded) it severely LIMITED what someone could do in that game. And now that game is a former shell of itself.
In a true skill based game, if you didn't like fighting, you could craft, or entertain, the possibilities are endless to what you could do. I don't necessarily agree with the OP and his statements, but I would like to see an MMO where there are RISKS and rewards for PvP, and I believe skill based games are a step in that direction.
As far as the "wolf" and "sheep" analogies go, what a joke. I like PvP and all, but to say that is just an insult to any gamer who doesn't like your certain playstyle and makes you look dumb. "Better watch out I'm the big bad wolf!"
To the OP, read This and be enlightened.
Now, to dismantle your argument. Firstly, in a video game, Honor does not exist, it may be mistaken for respect, but there isnt honor in a video game. Secondly, Calling yourself a "wolf" in a game is a large extent of arrogance and misguidance, as is calling other players "sheep", neither of these is actual in a game.
Thirdly, If you comprehended the work and determiantion it takes to make an MMO, maybe you'd understand why there are few MMOs that you described around.
To treed, your right on alot of points, but I dont agree in hearing you say you reached 60 quickly, for most it takes 4 months of hard work, the PvP isnt really good, but its not as bad as most games. A skill based game like EvE would rock, it's just that it requires incredibly fine tuning to balance everything out, you also have the extra working of finding the best train times for the skills.
In conclusion, read the above article on MMOs and you might see my point, games are meant to be enjoyed by as many people as possible, there are alot of select-choice games out there, ever try Shadowbane? You might enjoy Roma Victor as well. Your getting your games too, so dont be harping on about the "Generation" of games, all of it is choice.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
I dont see how our two statements differ, do you?
Neither of us can know how many man hours were spent on the changes you mentioned, but you can be sure those hours were spent to the detriment of other areas of the game.
Take Vanguard (the above poster has a link to an article that imo is total hogwash but anyway). I was very excited about a game that didnt appear to be following a trend, that would allow you professions other than an Adventurer, that yes even dared to cater to a more mature playerbase. Now Im hearing that it will have Raids, and PvP...oh and "by the way did we mention our Diplomacy System wouldnt be as complex as we initially envisaged?" You betcha it wont!
I just dont understand why players are demanding all from one game. If I want my fix of diplomacy and crafting I go to a NWN RP world. If Im in the mood for PvP then its L2. If im hungering for quality quests then I will probably choose a single-player game....and please note that only one of those games requires a monthly subscription.
Can all of these things be done well in one single world? I hope VSOH proves that yes it can: we have another year or so to find out I guess.
ROFL, no doubt.
PvP in online video games is a peacock of many feathers. One must not call into question the difference in colors, direct your indignance toward the bird itself.
Not necesarrily. I believe there is a direct corelation with types of PvP and skill/level systems. Most of the level systems have very weak crafting systems due to being able to acess better items from raids, etc. (Which leads to item based pvp) and most of the skill based games make crafting a major skill and most of the items are equal in statistics, which leads to a more skill based PvP, which is the root of this arguement because more people favor the games with item based PvP that is most often consensual, and most all skill based systems have non-consensual pvp, by nature (Less to lose because you bought the item, not spent 10 hours in an instance), and that leads to less skill based games being made due to the followers not being the majority (although i believe there is a large chunk of mmo gamers that would like to see one.) and those players feeling like outcasts, calling others carebear sheep and calling themselves wolves. So not totally irrelevant..;)
I agree with you wholeheartedly. However, I'm one of the nice people who went around killing those self apointed online philistines and wouldn't have had it any other way. UO could get your heart pounding and the adrenaline racing. The risks were modest and the rewards were always great. Knowing that you annihilated another person who was trying to steal from or even murder you or someone else still brings a smile to my face.
Know why they don't make a game (yet) for us old school UO/AC/whatever PvP idealists? Because people vote with their dollars for fun, and then come company cashes in and makes that game, and then we play it too (sometimes for as much as 2 months
). You see the problem? The gaming companies don't give a rip about how kewl UO was and how amazing it would be to have a really harsh ruleset like that in a graphically updated game. There's no money in it.
And then a game like Darkfall comes along trying to do something about it, and well suffice it to say, I think the opinionated PvP enthusiasts sometimes widen the gap with their in forum behaviors. People do read what we say here, but some people tend not to respect their fellow gamers. Remember that it isn't the guy in the post before you's fault that many of todays games are watered down, homogonized and sanitzed for mass consumption.
How many of these Grandma's Boy basement dweller posts do we need?
Every week someone creates a post about wanting a "challenge" and all MMOs are "carebear." Let me give you some free advise. You want a challenge? Go to graduate school, learn a foreign language, take banjo lessons, volunteer at a hospital, go outside, get fresh air...to name a few examples. Video games are a simple hobby for wasting time or winding down after a hard days work(or going to classes). A bit of a reality check for you, no one in the real world gives a damn about your gaming skills. A bunch of pixels on a computer monitor does not represent a persons level of courage.
QFE
Nicely stated!
LoL, awesome bro......that about sums it up
EDIT
There is generally very little skill involved with PvP in MMO's. For the most part who ever has the highest number / best gear wins.
There may be some skill in a large scale battle where some basic strategy involved but in a one on one its just a simple statisical contests. Whoever has the higher number will generally win.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. However, I'm one of the nice people who went around killing those self apointed online philistines and wouldn't have had it any other way. UO could get your heart pounding and the adrenaline racing. The risks were modest and the rewards were always great. Knowing that you annihilated another person who was trying to steal from or even murder you or someone else still brings a smile to my face.
Know why they don't make a game (yet) for us old school UO/AC/whatever PvP idealists? Because people vote with their dollars for fun, and then come company cashes in and makes that game, and then we play it too (sometimes for as much as 2 months
). You see the problem? The gaming companies don't give a rip about how kewl UO was and how amazing it would be to have a really harsh ruleset like that in a graphically updated game. There's no money in it.
And then a game like Darkfall comes along trying to do something about it, and well suffice it to say, I think the opinionated PvP enthusiasts sometimes widen the gap with their in forum behaviors. People do read what we say here, but some people tend not to respect their fellow gamers. Remember that it isn't the guy in the post before you's fault that many of todays games are watered down, homogonized and sanitzed for mass consumption.
What a lot of you "hard core PvPers" miss, or lack in thought, is the true reason WHY there are a lot of people who dislike it. It's not because they are afraid of a 'challange,' it's the issue of there rearly being a true challange. Most PvP happens with someone who thinks they are special because they are level 50, and decide they want to kill someone many times lower then themselves. In that aspect there's no point to fighting a player unless you're so sad that you need the feeling of 'killing' someone else. Now PvP is great WHEN there's a challange for BOTH players. When either person stands a chanse at being slain by the other, that is a challange. However there are too many assholes who'd stab their grandma in the back rather than look for a fair fight. they are all about how many kills they have instead of how many of those they truely earned.
I enjoy fighting a player, but not at the expence of preventing someone much lower than me from enjoying the game too. Nothings worse than being killed several times in a row by an asshole when you pose no threat to him what so ever. In Shadowbane this happened at various times, some dick would kill a level 20 when they are level 50+ (level 20 being off the island but being incapable of even landing a hit on a level 30+). What I did for 'revenge' and to teach people a lesson is turn the tables some. I'd stalk the known 'newbhunters' down and kill them over and over just like they did the low levels, till they whine and cry and eventualy quit the game or try to get a group to attack me (which sometimes worked but I tend to have an ace up my sleave so they never got far without living it down a few times).
Without enough people that have some form of honor or those to police the assholes, the love for PvP quickly dies. You want to hunt underleveled characters? Fine, but they should lose nothing when they've no chanse of surviving your onslaught and it should lead up to a bounty on your head to force you into a real fight soon or a later.
Top Ten Most Misused Words/Phrases in MMO Industry...
So ok I would think a game where constant pvp is fun when the game is more skill based (that is your personal skill to think on your feet and adjust to all situations) since then no one will have an advantage over you for any reason other than they are just more highly trained. Also most of these games now days have pvp zones where everyone is a target at all times. Its the best of both worlds. So who cares if you can't wander into a newbie area and kill the guy who just started 10 minutes ago. In pvp zones you can be sure that the people that are there are willing to accept the risks of death. Also the enemy can't chat with you wich i find nice. You don't have to listen to their stupid insults when they succeed. I also found a thrill in defeat in a way that I knew that maybe I could learn something from that person. I'ld send a message saying "well played but if you don't mind me asking?". any way i'll cut this short, i could go on for days.
"In mmorpgs I am considered the "Wolf" ... I prey on the "Sheep", if "Wolves" get in the way of my sheep then I'll kill those "Wolves", I don't expect non-veterans to understand this."
In other words, you're the coward that preys on the sheep 20 lvels below you?
Nicely put.
Your behaviour in game does reflect your personality. How you behave in game although "role play" perhaps is entirely governed by yourself.
PvP gaming attracts a certain type of person. In particular it attracts people like the OP, and greifers and gankers and smack talkers and internet bigmen. It attracts other nice people too, but you have to take the good with the bad, and the bad come in a greater proportion.
No matter how clever your game system, malign people will always find the exploit to gank and greif etc. If it is coded out of the game, they will code it back in themselves. Competative play brings out the idiots. There are no multiplayer cheats for online co-operative games. None.
I'm a carebear. I don't have time to waste with this kind of people. I don't enjoy their company, I understand the mindset and I don't like it. There are enough people I don't want to play with in carebear games, without me adding to the % of tossers.
I play the odd FPS/RTS game for my PvP kicks and sometimes even multiplayer Tetris, it's very hard to find a community of nice people only and mainstream games are not the best place to look. I don't find rpg PvP challenging, thats not the experience I am looking for in that kind of game.
I do think that PvP is supported in most MMO's these days. I usually see (and avoid) a PvP server for most titles I buy. Judging solely by the proportion of these kind of servers in WoW, I suspect that only a slim fraction of RPgers are looking for this, but clearly enough for developers to cater for.
There are plenty of PvPcentric mmo's on the market. But to my mind a good game is inclusive not exclusive and should cater to as many audiences at the same time as possible. This is why WoW is my favorite PvP rpg so far. Apart from having hardcore dedicated PvP servers it has a functional dueling system a fun Diablo style PvP active mode and has made the effort to introduce a little varied PvP teamplay settings. None of which affect your game if your are not intrested and you can still play the same game online with your friends who enjoy that kind of thing without being personally subjected to it.
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PvP was the worst part of Eve online. Sorry Eve fans but it was just the same as all the other PvPing, a load of gankers getting their jollies bullying people and ruining their fun.
A. Try not to force your favorite style of gameplay on others.
B. Go play a true hardcore PvP game yourself; leave the rest of us alone to enjoy our gameplay.
C. My guess, you are all blow and no go.
Damn consensual PVP, I'm calling the law on these rampant cowardice lovin hippies and their little dogs too.
This is really important people, we should argue or throw rocks or something.