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what should we do about illegal aliens?
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Oooh, your using the old Dixiecrat (doom and gloom, imploding economy without slaves) pro-slavery arguement:
An Excerpt from "Slavery in the Light of Social Ethics," by Chancelor Harper, printed in Cotton is King, and Pro-Slavry Arguments: Comprising the Writings of Hammond, Harper, Christy, Stringfellow, Hodge, Bledsoe, and Cartwright, on This Important Subject, E.N. Elliott, ed. (Augusta, GA: Pritchard, Abbott & Loomis, 1860):
In one thing I concur with the abolitionists; that if emancipation is to be brought about, it is better that it should be immediate and total. But let us suppose it to be brought about in any manner, and then inquire what would be the effects.
The first and most obvious effect, would be to put an end to the cultivation of our great Southern staple. And this would be equally the result, if we suppose the emancipated negroes to be in no way distinguished from the free labourers of other countries, and that their labor would b equally effective. . . Imagine an extensive rice or cotton plantation cultivated by free laborers, who might perhaps strike for an increase of wages, at a season when the neglect of a few days would insure the destruction of the whole crop. Even if it were possible to procure laborers at all, what planter would venture to carry on his operations under such circumstances? I need hardly say that these staples cannot be produced to any extent where the proprietor of the soil cultivates it with his own hands. He can do little more than produce the necessary food for himself and his family.
And what would be the effect of putting an end to the cultivation of these staples, and thus annihilating, at a blow, two-thirds or three-fourths of our foreign commerce? Can any sane mind contemplate such a result without terror? I speak not of the utter poverty and misery to which we ourselves would be reduced, and the desolation which would overspread our own portion of the country. (OMG DOOM AND GLOOM! DOGS AND CATS LIVING TOGETHER! MASS HYSTERIA!!!)
Next in history class, Manifest Destiny make sure you take notes!
==========================
Nothing, just leave them alone.
For everyone who wants them deported or given amnesty here is what a news flash would look like.
Thousands of small businesses have closed due to the deportation/amnesty of illegal aliens, Wal-Mart crumbles to dust, the house you were having built now cost 3.5million dollars, your landscaping service now costs $1000 dollars per treatment due to the Landscapers Union, getting your car detailed now costs $3500, having your house cleaned now costs $2500, tomatoes, apples, oranges and other things picked by illegal aliens now costs $10 per item. Good Job everyone glad we sent them all back or gave amnesty now Americans can't afford anything.
So, I would say just leave it the way it is. For those of you wanting to build a wall and man it with guns I suggest you mone to China(they have a big wall) or North Korea (they have a fence with guns).
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
lets take for the fact of what is going on now, and try not to look in the past what does that help.. nothing.. if we havent learned from it.. which we really havent..
Playing daoc and loving it totally..
have Played
Eq,Eq2,WoW,Coh,Cov,
and other..
which i have forgotten..
LOL That is a different time... can not compair to today.
Yes the US was founded with immigration -- That founded us correct -- but again that was also a different time when there was so much room to grow - The borders were always open until the immagration started producing a huge strain on the US, then the US had to change their policy to fit the times and close the borders.
Even today, America's resources are extremely stressed, the 10-20 million illegal immagrants is really stressing our system.
From what I have witnessed a couple problems come from the illegal immagrants:
1. They are bringing down land value - by setting up their boarding houses
2. now this one is a big issue with me -- jobs that used to pay 15 - 20 bux an hour now only pay 9 or 10 an hour because illegals are willing to do it for 7 - 8 an hour... pefect example a friend of mine 10 years ago made 22 an hour driving a backhoe --- his company went under a year ago and he found a new job doing the exact same thing he now makes 15 an hour... and all the entry level jobs that used to make 12 to 15 now only pay 9.50
3. They super stress state and local programs inteded for citizens, my state alone had to pay 23 million in extra money for extra education programs to teach their children english and get them caught up.
4. They wish to be americans but not be americans... in other words instead of integrading into society and becoming apart of the american culture like other immagrants -- instead they flash flags of mexican pride and demand rights to be here and to be american - but yet they refuse to learn english and integrate... problem?
I think the new law should go into effect unchanged
this would give those that ahve been here 4 years or more a road to citizenship with a 2k fine and have to pay back taxes --- take a english test to make sure they can read, write and speak english
those who been here 2-3.9 years can get granted work visas and a road to citizenship
Those less then 2 years - get deported
Personally.. while speaking to a friend of mine who lives in mexico city who agrees with me - mexicans should gather together, if they have soooo much pride for thier country -- go back to it and kick the corrputed governements out , or hard press for reform.. or face overthrow.... now that would be american like!!
Tatsit
Tantus Games
COO/Game Director
You are quoting bullshit fed to you by a sorry excuse for a president. Have you ever seen a bum on the street with a sign that says
WILL WORK FOR FOOD!
That quote is a sorry excuse for companies to pay slave wages then say Americans will not perform the work. No shit! No one except a poor, pathetic ILLEGAL immigrant wants to work for $2/hr!
Again, its not that americans will not do those jobs.. they have brought down the value of those jobs -- they are willing to do it cheaper.. companies are willing to hire cheaper help -- if someone makes 10.00 an hour a company pays 15.00 for that employee once taxes are added in...
If a company can pay a illegal 8 bux an hour for that job and not pay the taxes involved then hell ya... this is the problem- --- americans were doing just fine doing those jobs and did them till the flood of cheap labor
if we deport them... yes could cause economic problems.. it would cost several billion dollars to deport them all -- and who filles the jobs they were occupying... the other problem is if they leave those jobs.. the companies who have adjusted for so long and now depends on their cheap labor could go bankrupt -- their fault if you ask me.... they should have stuck to the law and not hired them..
thats why i suggest if they can prove if they have been here 4+ years, are established making positive contrabution to our society.. speak english and integrate..then fine let them stay
Tatsit
Tantus Games
COO/Game Director
By established immigrants I can only assume you mean Legal Immigrants? I have no problem with people that come to Aerica the correct way and then pay taxes. My problem is the people that sneek into America illegally, use our free medicare illegally, use our welfare illegally, can't speak a lick of English, and have the nerve to protest waving Mexican flags. Those folks we can do without... they're the reason the American Dollar is losing it's value exponentially... which makes gas prices go up, btw...
Kicking out the illegals, and making it a felony to hire them will do several things...
Make health insurance cheaper!!!!!
Bring back the education system (because we lower our standards so non-English speaking students can keep up)
Help bring back the value in the U.S. Dollar (because more Americans will be working in America)...
And actually lower gas prices.
They're doing the jobs that Americans won't do... for $2.00 an hour. American corporations that hire illegal immigrants (or just take their business to another, cheaper country) are the single most reason that everything in America is fucking up. Next would be politicians with no balls. Next is the ever dropping standards bar in the school systems.
If you think Americans won't mow lawns... try offering that job to a homeless person. I bet you some hungry ass bum whose stomache has been empty for a few days will work his ass off for $2.00 an hour. As long as it's an American. Hell, pay him $5.15 an hour, but pay him time wise par yard that he mows. Each yard = 30 minutes. He'd just be happy to have something to eat at the end of the day. But, of course, illegal immigrants make everything cheaper for Americans. So, we'd have to make some sacrifices as well. You know, pay more for Legal workers instead of illegal workers. That won't happen, so the next cause of all these problems is Americans themselves.
We have armies at the border, but that doesn't keep them out.
Wrong, $10 an hour doesn't cost the company anything in taxes. It costs the employee. The insurance for that employee s what makes that price go up... which... keeps climbing thanks to illegal immigrants being hired, but also causes more illegal immigrants to be hired.
SobaKai.com
There are two types of people in this world - people that suck... and me.
Despite offical language or not..
this country was founded on english - its constitution is written in english - American citizens speak english
its our language - all other immagrants learn english to live here... you have to pass a written, verbal and reading english test to get approved to become american...
so wth are you talking about?
Even the slaves learned english -- i vote to speak english -- if i moved to japan i would learn japanese.. if i moved to germany, i would speak german, if i moved to china, i would learn chinesse -- if i moved to scottland i would get a cool accent
Tatsit
Tantus Games
COO/Game Director
Between the woes of our bureaucratic beast of a government that forcibly makes select individuals a burden on the populace through government handouts, and the fact that you have Mexicans not acting as the old proverb says, "When in rome, do as the romans do". Remedy these two problems, and you don't have a problem.
Although our own government isn't exactly helping them integrate into our society by supporting their lack of ability/wanting to speak our language, by making everything bi-lingual.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Christians are one of the worlds biggest barbarians....
but thats a different topic
Tatsit
Tantus Games
COO/Game Director
The United States was founded as a REPUBLIC.
A republic is based on LAWS.
We should ENFORCE OUR LAWS to maintain order.
Anyone coming into this country who breaks, avoids, or ignores our laws is here ILLEGALLY.
Such a person is commonly known as an ILLEGAL alien/immigrant.
ENFORCE the law!
NO amnesty for LAW BREAKERS!
Send them back where they came from until such time as they can RESPECT OUR LAWS and apply to enter legally.
Also, we need a law stating that the offspring of an illegal alien/immigrant is NOT a citizen of the United States. If the parent is illegal so is their children regardless of birthplace. (If the parent is legal then the offspring are automatically U.S. citizens.)
This would remove a MAJOR incentive for illegals to come here.
Anyone employing an illegal alien should be HEAVILY fined and perhaps certain sanctions imposed for a time. They would soon find it cheaper to pay legal citizens an honest wage and stop encouraging lawlessness and lawbreakers.
It's that simple, but our first problem is with so-called leaders and politicians who have failed and refused to enforce our laws and defend the country.
Every LEGAL American should make their OUTRAGE heard at the ballot box and oust those who fail to uphold law and order and want to coddle LAWBREAKERS.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
First, don't quite understand the last comment...
Second, you have to step back and look at the big picture. Everything works in cycles.
You hire illegal foreign labor because they're cheaper
You charge the same amount for the job
You gain money in the process
That's a "smart" business idea.
Meanwhile...
Illegal immigrants come to America for work
They get hurt at work
They go to an American hospital with a fake passport and driver's licence and get free medical attention
Economy/Hospitals/Insurance Agencies have to adjust to the increase of costs due to these illegal activites
Health Insurance costs go up for the average American (way up in my case...)
That seems to be something people can cope with though. Here's another...
We use foreign labor because it's cheaper (in or out of the country).
Less Americans can work or have jobs
Less Americans can afford to buy things
More and more companies need to make up for the losses in these customers by increasing the costs of their murchandise.
Murchandise prices go up, people begin to live without or just can't afford
Economy starts to go downward
Company is losing money and can't afford to pay all of it's employees
Company hires illegal immigrants/foreign labor in place of Americans due to them being cheaper for the same work load
Repeat the cycle
U.S. Dollar begings to deteriorate in value
Foreign oil companies are charging the same price for oil, it just costs extra due to the exchange rates
It's all how I see it. One big problem causing several others. I better not break my arm because I can't afford gas to get to the hospital let alone the costs for me to get a cast.
This is just my point of view though...
SobaKai.com
There are two types of people in this world - people that suck... and me.
I work in manufacturing as a welder. The company I work for has about 1/3 of its workforce here illegally. It used to be about 1/2 but they've been hiring more Americans recently. These guys come here and use STOLEN SSN#'s and FAKE id's to get hired. While they do pay taxes they claim so many dependants that they pay very little.
Most of them speak no english and only make $6-8 an hour. However, some of them do make upto $16 an hour and one guy even makes around $50,000 a year. These are certainly NOT jobs "Americans won't do." These are decent paying skilled jobs that are being taken from legal immigrants and Americans.
Hiring illegals not only takes jobs from the rest of us but drives down the price of labor. As a welder I'm a making as much as I ever will here. My position was paying the same 10 years ago. (no I didn't work there then.) My employer has no incestive to offer raises or decent benefits. If someone dosen't like that they can easily be repalced with an illegal who won't complain.
Tough shit right? Well its hard for a guy who folllows the laws, pays taxes, insurance has a mortgage etc... To live on the same wages as someone who has none of that to worry about. The illegals I work with pay very little in taxes, drive cars w/ no insurance. If they wreck it they don't care, if they wreck into YOU they don't care. They just buy another $500 car. They don't put money back into the local economy like the rest of us. They spend as little are possible and wire the rest down south of the border.
My grandfather was a welder and made a good living and was able to provide for a large family. That was a differnt time. These days its hard for a person to make a decent living in maunfacturing, construction etc... Because we have to compete against those who can work for less because they don't play by the rules.
Offering ammnesty and citizenship won't help the problem. What happens when 10-20 million illegals suddenly become legal? They have to start paying taxes, medical care, insurance etc... Now you can't pay them 1/2 a livable wage. They've become citizens and will begin to demand better wages. Then we are right back where we were. What do you do now, fire them and hire more illegals to replace them?
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
izombie, I really enjoyed your sensible, factual, and thought provoking post on this illegal alien subject. Thanks.
Agreed!
Tatsit
Tantus Games
COO/Game Director
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
FIRE THE LOT OF 'EM!!
Sounds like a joke, but I'm completely serious. I agree with what you say. My only disagreeance would be the cause to the effect, but that's not to say that the government isn't to blame. So, for the most part, what you say is correct.
A quote from The Hitch-Hiker's Guide To the Galaxy:
"Those who can afford to put themselves into a position of leadership are generally the ones that shouldn't be leading anything. Those who can't afford to be a leader are generally the ones you want to do the leading."
To sum that quote up...
If they have a commercial airing around election time, don't vote for them. Politicians are no more you and I than they are pancakes covered in syrup. Vote for real people. People that work hard for a living, and know what it's like to miss a meal because they were once broke. People that have lost a tooth due to something stupid that they did as a kid. People with an honest to God American backbone, and maybe this entire mess will begin to get cleaned up.
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Oh, and another thing, there have been cases where illegal immigrants (maybe just immigrants alone) have brought over diseases that America hasn't seen in over 20 years, but the diseases are stronger now because they've been festering in some thrid world country south of the border.
SobaKai.com
There are two types of people in this world - people that suck... and me.
People need to speak whatever language the country's laws are written in. Tell me that English is used as much a Spanish and I'll tell you to go to the grocery store and pick 5 people. Ask how many can speak Spanish, and then ask them how often they use it. Then pick 5 more, rinse, repeat.
Spanish is used just as much as English... in Mexico... or in Spain... but in America, the United States... your drill Sargent is yelling at you in English. The cereal boxes are written in English. It's "For English press 1."
You come to the United States... you speak English. Rule number 1. All the legal immigrants have to do it. Tu necesitas hablar Ingles quando estas en los Estados Unidos por que sin Ingles a nosotros tu estas solo una chihuahua de Taco Bell. Hablamos Ingles. Por que no puedes? Estas estupido? Si? No? Learn to speak it.
SobaKai.com
There are two types of people in this world - people that suck... and me.