Originally posted by angerr eq2 ran great the last time i played it, let this thread die....you people are not going to play it and you are going to keep speculting(sp?) on what might happen, thats fine. there are quite a few people that obviously still love soe games no matter how bad of a company soe is so whatever happens i assume vanguard will be there no matter how much you complain and pretend it is dead, to you it is dead to many others it is very much alive.
This has huge impact on so many people. Everyone I know WAS heading to Vanguard. Now people are argueing, guilds are splitting up, it's just insane. Vanguard was supposed to be the light at the end of the virtual tunnel. People waited and waited, praising the name Sigil and Vanguard. In the mean time, these same people, including myself, hated SOE. There's good reason to hate them. People who have not been hurt by SOE must understand this. Hatred can run deeper than love. I'm deeply saddened that I can no longer play a game that I've loved and supported for all these years. I'm envious of the people who can look past it or have not been effected by SOE.
I was one of those really looking forward to Vanguard because I ran out of things to play. I dislike SOE so much that I decided some time ago to never play another game that has ANY involvement with SOE. I'm saddened by this decision, but it means I'm joining the chorus of people who will have to look for yet another game to escape the doldrums.
Originally posted by Celestian Originally posted by DrSmaSh There goes the Vanguard.
It will go like this:
Vanguard comes out. In 3-5 months 1st "expension". By the time game is 1 year old we will already have 3 "expensions" and still shit load of bugs from beta.
Since game will be very hard they will dumb it down and turn it in to WoW with better graphics + 2 more "expension".
Cya @ some other game
Good, cause if you trying to say EQ2 sucks because it has 2 expansions and 2 packs you are freaking nuts. Bugs? Please don't use the "fix all the bugs before new content" crap. I've been playing EQ2 since release and yet to encounter some bug that keeps me from playing or causing massive issues.
You guys all whining and moaning about SoE taking over and not buying it? Good, you and the pre-CU SWG folks can all go join a club somewhere and cry cause you can't get "your" game back.
Dumbed down? Yeap you sure are.
Did I mybe insault you? Did I call you names? Why you have to act like some kid... I can't have my opinion?
Like I want this game to turn out to be crap... I don't want that. I'v been fallowing this game for over a year now. But SOE is a bad news... I just have very bad feeling about this.
Cya.
Every time I read your post, I die a little inside...
I fully admit I quit SWG before the Combat Upgrade occured. So I did not experience the true feeling of betrayal that most have but, I have to agree. I think this is a good move for Sigil.....as long as the SOE-Sigil relationship follows what has been posted by Brad to the letter. No content input. Let Sigil do what they seem to do best...making an innovative MMORPG.
SOE has been branded the red-headed stepchild of the gaming world, especially with MMORPGs, with good reason. They started well with EQ but then saw the massive income streams that MMORPGs can provide and they, in my eyes, became exclusively "profit-oriented".
They forgot that MMORPGs are as much of an art as a science and, at the other end of their income stream, is a player/customer who needs to be satisfied. Whether that be with challenging mechanics or new and interesting content, MMORPG customers need to be addressed and respected. Like any business, you piss off your customers/subscribers you will lose them. Once the word of mouth/internet flames spill over to other game forums ... well .... you are a sinking ship.
I for one support Sigil's move to take further control of their product. I just wish they could have done it with someone else besides SOE. Other suggestions have been made but did they fit the bill for Sigil's Vision? Maybe they did not have the resources that uber SOE did? Who knows. Brad does I bet. Maybe he can enlighten us if this was a one bid process or were other companies considered?
The move is also very good for SOE. If they can somehow ride on the coattails of a successful Sigil product, they may remove some of the tarnish from their name. In my mind, not enough to lure back the majority of the players that they have alienated, but some. Eventually, they may even claim an ambiguous position in the MMORPG community.
Personally, now that I think about it a bit more, I'm REALLY happy this happened. This way, when the game is good, all you SoE haters (most of you haven't experienced anything, just picking up the forum trend) will -not- be there! That way I don't have to put up with any of the ignorant crap that comes outta the majority of those mouths.
Smart move by quitting swg before Combat Upgrade occured, I wish I would have also quit then, it would have saved a lot of heart ache and I wouldn't have wasted a lot of time on something that I wasn't going to like at all later on.
I know people say that SoE has no control at all of Vanguard. But they are still partners, maybe not 50/50 partners but still. I believe that gives them atleast some say in things, even if it's not the final word that Sigil has. I don't care what Brad and the press releases say about no control what so ever, that's most likely not 100% true.
I played WoW and EQ2 and the support is way better in EQ2. Servers are more stabile as well. I dont see the problem with SOE, much better choice than Microsoft imho. I guess, I will give Vanguard a go once it is out:)
Originally posted by DerEraSesor I played WoW and EQ2 and the support is way better in EQ2. Servers are more stabile as well.
Sorry but that isn't the case, the problem that Blizzard had was the huge number of people playing. Blizzard have added more servers and upgarded the hardware to try and combat this (No I'm not a WoW fanboi, I'm not even that keen on the game).
Shame I can't say the same for SOE when SWG was lagging so badly that dead bodies would slide around the floor at random for about 30 secs after combat had ended, but then I guess SOE felt SWG wasn't worth the hardware upgrade.
Still as with any MMO everyones experience can be different, but I think you'll find SOE just about has the worse support rep in the business.
Originally posted by Mordith Originally posted by JonMichael Originally posted by Celestian Good, cause if you trying to say EQ2 sucks because it has 2 expansions and 2 packs you are freaking nuts. Bugs? Please don't use the "fix all the bugs before new content" crap. I've been playing EQ2 since release and yet to encounter some bug that keeps me from playing or causing massive issues.
You guys all whining and moaning about SoE taking over and not buying it? Good, you and the pre-CU SWG folks can all go join a club somewhere and cry cause you can't get "your" game back.
Dumbed down? Yeap you sure are.
You've been playing EQ2 since release and have never encountered bugs that keep you from playing or cause massive issues?
I played it for a year and was constantly experiencing gameplay issues and bugs. Let's talk about just a few that I can remember:
1. The Merchant issues
2. The LAG issues
3. The crashing to desktop issues
4. Broken spells and combat arts
5. The constant nerfing of loot, professions and quests
6. Lack of any type of reliable Customer Service
7. Developer's attitudes
8. Mob pathing problems, de-spawning and lock out timers
9. Server downtime
10. Tradeskill recipes being added months after promise
Those are just a FEW of the problems SoE has with EQ2. Let's not even mention what they did to SWG.
Just because you can't see the problems that SoE has in maintaining their games and customers, doesn't mean that others don't have problems with them. Maybe you've been playing SoE games so long, that you actually don't know how a decent, honest company operates? ;P
Those are all personal issues "you" apparently had. I personally didn't experience anything on that list which in any way negatively impacted my gameplay. EQ2 is a very very good game. If you haven't played in the last several months, you probably have not experienced what the game really has to offer.
Do me a favor and don't bother responding to this post. Nothing I, nor anyone else, says is going to change your apparent biased dislike for SOE.
Sorry... today just doesn't happen to be your day for favors. /giggle I have a right to express my "biased" opinion, just as much as you have to express your 'biased" opinion.
The issues I listed are not only my "personal" issues, but the issues of many people who are playing/have played EQ2. Just take a look at their forums. There is a huge crashing issue that has been discussed on the forums since January and is still causing major problems.
SOE's customer service is a total joke, whether or not you choose to admit it or just accept it as GOOD customer service. They're rude, unhelpful and close tickets without giving you a chance to respond to the "working as intended" auto-generated responses from a customer service team who can't spell, let alone use the English language correctly.
If you think EQ2 is such a wonderful game and SOE is such a wonderful company, then good for you.. I wish you luck with them. That doesn't mean I can't disagree with you and point out my experience (along with many others who will agree).
The only thing Sigil will benefit from having SOE publish their game is the possibility that SOE customers will play Vanguard. The majority of the followers of Vanguard were people who no longer wanted to associate with SOE. Take a good look at the forums and ratings since it was announced.. people generally are NOT happy with this move.
_________________________________ JonMichael
Currently: AION, an MMO Beta under NDA Played: WAR, LOTRO, Hellgate: London, CoX, GW, SotNW, DAOC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AO, Horizons, Second Life, There, TSO Beta'd: There, Second Life, EQ2, DAOC:LotM, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, Gods and Heroes, Hellgate: London, Requiem:Bloodymare, AoC, WAR, DDO, Fallen Earth
Originally posted by darkaster Personally, now that I think about it a bit more, I'm REALLY happy this happened. This way, when the game is good, all you SoE haters (most of you haven't experienced anything, just picking up the forum trend) will -not- be there! That way I don't have to put up with any of the ignorant crap that comes outta the majority of those mouths.
Thanks for not playing!
I am always amazed at how a certain segment of the population seems to think it is a 'good' thing when folks don't subcribe to a game or leave a game because they are not having a good time.
DDO is the perfect example of this. It is going into the crapper and all the FanBoyz can say to those leaving is 'Good Bye and Good Riddance'. DDO only sold about 300,000 copies (Turbines numbers); there are far, far fewer people subscribing; maybe a 10th that number (my guess).
So, don't be so anxious to wave goodby to former V:SoH advocates; it is NOT a good thing that they are bailing on the game. It is NOT a good thing that V:SoH has fallen totally off the anticipated list. It is NOT a good thing that SOE is involved after all the 'independent' talk from Sigil.
I for one will not be pre-ordering, or even launch ordering, V:SoH. I intend to wait and read what actually has been done to the game. I predict it will be made much more 'friendly' than the original specifications called for. SOE is still looking for a 'blockbuster' MMORPG with which to compete agains WoW (good luck with that!). EQ2 was a bust, and the way V:SoH was originally specced, it also would not meet that definition. So, expect a much changed V:SoH design philosophy with SOE involved.
Just my 2c based on years of experience playing SOE games (EQ, MOL, EQ2, PS).
Originally posted by Shoal Originally posted by darkaster Personally, now that I think about it a bit more, I'm REALLY happy this happened. This way, when the game is good, all you SoE haters (most of you haven't experienced anything, just picking up the forum trend) will -not- be there! That way I don't have to put up with any of the ignorant crap that comes outta the majority of those mouths.
Thanks for not playing!
I am always amazed at how a certain segment of the population seems to think it is a 'good' thing when folks don't subcribe to a game or leave a game because they are not having a good time.
DDO is the perfect example of this. It is going into the crapper and all the FanBoyz can say to those leaving is 'Good Bye and Good Riddance'. DDO only sold about 300,000 copies (Turbines numbers); there are far, far fewer people subscribing; maybe a 10th that number (my guess).
So, don't be so anxious to wave goodby to former V:SoH advocates; it is NOT a good thing that they are bailing on the game. It is NOT a good thing that V:SoH has fallen totally off the anticipated list. It is NOT a good thing that SOE is involved after all the 'independent' talk from Sigil.
I for one will not be pre-ordering, or even launch ordering, V:SoH. I intend to wait and read what actually has been done to the game. I predict it will be made much more 'friendly' than the original specifications called for. SOE is still looking for a 'blockbuster' MMORPG with which to compete agains WoW (good luck with that!). EQ2 was a bust, and the way V:SoH was originally specced, it also would not meet that definition. So, expect a much changed V:SoH design philosophy with SOE involved.
Just my 2c based on years of experience playing SOE games (EQ, MOL, EQ2, PS).
Excellent, insightful post!
_________________________________ JonMichael
Currently: AION, an MMO Beta under NDA Played: WAR, LOTRO, Hellgate: London, CoX, GW, SotNW, DAOC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AO, Horizons, Second Life, There, TSO Beta'd: There, Second Life, EQ2, DAOC:LotM, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, Gods and Heroes, Hellgate: London, Requiem:Bloodymare, AoC, WAR, DDO, Fallen Earth
Everybody seems to think this is a bad issue when nobody truely knows what it might have turned into if Sigil stayed with Microsoft... With Microsoft having a LOT more power over Vanguard than SoE will have. It's a co-publishing deal, SoE is just forking over some cash to give Sigil the financial backbone it needs to get its game to the shelf.
Case in point: Play the game for the Game, who cares about SoE.
awww man. Well... it WAS going to be a good game, and I WAS going to buy it. Maybe I will if SOE decides to become a decisive, fair, and sharing company... HAHAHAHAHA like that'll happen...
HAHA poor sigil, I just saw half of vanguards players get abolished before they even had a chance to play -- Poor business move from sigil to sign with SOE -
thousands and thousands of people are boycotting SOE anything, just think thats probably millions of $$ now will be directed else were...
From a developers stand point I am extremely happy that Sigil signed with SOE, why? Less people will play vanguard and more will come play Conflict Omega when we release!
Originally posted by Saerain Originally posted by Phoenixs NoooVanguard: Soh: NGE here we come Guys, SOE is not making Vanguard, nor are they buying it. Chill out.Too many people are not understanding this relationship. It looks silly on you.
Saerain, SOE is bad karma - just to have that name is a hex
If voodoo fusion made a deal with SOE, I would quit the C:O project if the thought alone didnt already taint my karma :P
Originally posted by darkaster This way, when the game is good, all you SoE haters (most of you haven't experienced anything, just picking up the forum trend) will -not- be there! That way I don't have to put up with any of the ignorant crap that comes outta the majority of those mouths.
Thanks for not playing!
You forgot "more bandwidth for me"
Thanks for pushing me from indifferent to total adversion. Nothing good has ever come whenever I start seeing these type of comments about a game. Saw them popping up at the end of AO beta, during MCO and E&B, SB beta, and near release of WW2Online. To me it's a sign that that a plane is going to crash into a train, fly off the tracks into an explosives factory and all end up landing on an orphanage. Let me take a wild guess from those who were there, same type of comments were popping up on the forums around NGE time in Star Wars right?
Perhaps Vanguard may have ensured some longevity with this move. There are lots of folks talking aboout the mmorpg populations becoming diluted due to the number of games out there available. The fantasy genre is especially bloated and into this market comes Vanguard.
Speculation may be that the games won't survive due to low populations; i.e., not enough revenue coming in to keep stockholders happy 'cuz the market is spread too thin.
Teaming with SOE, getting on the station pass, will form sort of an 'alliance' of games. People may be playing EQ, EQ2, Planetside, SWG (don't laugh) or Vanguard, all of these games or just a few of them. In anycase, the revenues of all games in one pot would help each game's longevity with thinner populations.
The truth is that no mmo can ever match what EQ was doing back in the day. We keep getting disappointed in games low populations...Auto Assault, DDO, SWG. Many blame the developers directions with those games, but my opinion is the bloated market may have more to do with low populations than anything else.
So how does Brad achieve his vision? Take subscribers out of the business equation. In SOE his game will survive and develop, even with low numbers. I say this isn't a bold move, this is a conservative move and a smart one.
Thanks for pushing me from indifferent to total adversion. Nothing good has ever come whenever I start seeing these type of comments about a game. Saw them popping up at the end of AO beta, during MCO and E&B, SB beta, and near release of WW2Online. To me it's a sign that that a plane is going to crash into a train, fly off the tracks into an explosives factory and all end up landing on an orphanage. Let me take a wild guess from those who were there, same type of comments were popping up on the forums around NGE time in Star Wars right?
They never told us about the NGE, until it was on test server heading for live server. The NGE was coded in total secrecy.
Originally posted by teakbois Originally posted by Lasastard Considering the bad reputation SOE has gained among the MMO community, this might not have been a very smart move from Sigil...
actually its probably a wash.
really the only people that are that upset with SOE are SWG players. And there really wasnt a lot of SWG players. Before CU even came around SWG was down about half of its subscribers. You also lose the occasional asshat that hates SOE because they think its the cool thing to do but really have no reason to. And there are some that think SOE screwed up EQ and again thats a very small group of people.
On the flipside is all the current EQ and EQ2 players that will likely give the game a try if its on station access. that will likely even out the score.
Even if true, that's still damning. One of Vangaurd's core constituncies was going to be SWG refugees. Getting into an agreement with the company that drove a lot of your core constituency away before is not a wise move.
Furthermore, the implications were a lot wider than just SWG players. Many people who never touched SWG were appalled at the deception and indifference to customers Smedley and friends displayed. Sony already had a notorious reputation for being one of the worst customer service companies around. It took quite some time for EQ2 to be a decent game. (It's improving, if you like linear grab you by the hand no freedom MMO's where the goal is to have insert amount of man raids, which I can't stand, though I think EQ2's mentor system was a stroke of genius, though that's getting offtopic)
so now that ms has teamed with funcom and admit to being involved with the actual development, i bet that doesn't bother you one bit right?
does it now need to be totally spelled out for you that ms wanted to mess with the development of vanguard and sigil would have no part of it?
hate soe all you want, it is understandable.......but i don't blame sigil one freaking bit for buying back the rites to vanguard....if ms wants to meddle with the development of an mmog they are publishing, let them go to funcom.
I am always amazed at how a certain segment of the population seems to think it is a 'good' thing when folks don't subcribe to a game or leave a game because they are not having a good time.
DDO is the perfect example of this. It is going into the crapper and all the FanBoyz can say to those leaving is 'Good Bye and Good Riddance'. DDO only sold about 300,000 copies (Turbines numbers); there are far, far fewer people subscribing; maybe a 10th that number (my guess).
So, don't be so anxious to wave goodby to former V:SoH advocates; it is NOT a good thing that they are bailing on the game. It is NOT a good thing that V:SoH has fallen totally off the anticipated list. It is NOT a good thing that SOE is involved after all the 'independent' talk from Sigil.
I for one will not be pre-ordering, or even launch ordering, V:SoH. I intend to wait and read what actually has been done to the game. I predict it will be made much more 'friendly' than the original specifications called for. SOE is still looking for a 'blockbuster' MMORPG with which to compete agains WoW (good luck with that!). EQ2 was a bust, and the way V:SoH was originally specced, it also would not meet that definition. So, expect a much changed V:SoH design philosophy with SOE involved.
Just my 2c based on years of experience playing SOE games (EQ, MOL, EQ2, PS).
This post is not to directly insult any individual, but rather address pervasive attitudes on this thread. I will begin with addressing the quote above, but I'm really talking about all the haters out there.
I don't see the same FanBoy population you do in DDO. I have had nothing but positive group experiences and have never struggled to find people to team with. I'm a relative DandD newb, and was pleasantly surprised by the number of pnp converts, who were all very helpful in groups. I'm talking about pick up groups at that, where you are really rolling the dice. Perhaps it wasn't the FanBoyz saying 'good riddance' but rather those who realized it is the haters/bashers that have issues, not the game.
Secondarily, people complained about the scope of the game; small world, instanced zones, not 'an immersive universe' with open zones blah blah. Perhaps, just perhaps, Turbine's business models showed that they would never capture a WoW/EQesque population so they designed the game in scope and style to handle a 300,000 copies sold population. That seems much more likely to me than FanBoyz trumping the plan of those with a strong background in corporate business.
As for SOE nerfing all games and making them easier...I disagree. EQ still has a huge, difficult and complicated end game, probably the biggest out there. EQ2 was designed from the get-go to cater to the more casual player (we can argue if they achieved that goal). I think the business plan is to have 'the classic' (EQ), the next generation to cater to casual gamers (EQ2) and the next generation to cater to hardcore gamers (Vanguard). To me that sounds like a sound business plan to help capture a rapidly diversifying mmo audience. Not the pattern of rape, pillage and plunder, damn the consequences type of company you all paint SOE out to be. If EVERYONE hates SOE, and NO ONE will give them another penny, then how exactly do they have the money to do this? They act fairly bold for a company who has alienated anyone who ever dealt with them, and logically must be on the brink of financial ruin. In truth, you haters are the minority. SOE is no better or worse than any big business.
I have also played SOE games for years as well. Guess what. No problems here. No customer service issues, no account problems, no crash problems. Anytime I had a problem playing EQ, EQ2 or SWG, I found the problem was usually me, my system or my internet service provider; never ever ever did it turn out to be a developer/publisher issue. And I know I'm in good company. If you hang with haters ingame, you will probably feel like everyone hates. I didn't do that, and found that the majority of populations were there just to play a game and we never mentioned SOE at all. I'd venture to say my positive experiences with SOE has to do in large part to the company I chose to keep. I wasn't 'lucky' to experience no problems with SOE, I chose to see the glass half-full. And I had fun killing dragons while you guys were spamming the zones with the evils of SOE.
No one wants to blame themselves for their own problems. Your comp is junk? Blame SOE. Your dial-up is run by monkees? Blame SOE. Someone ganked your mob and the GM's did nothing, despite the fact they were just following game policy? Blame SOE. Your bp went from 20 AC to 18 AC....well I guess you could blame that on SOE but really, if you think that is your biggest problem...you have bigger ones.
If you think the sheer weight of posts on various boards will get Sigil to change their venue, you are wrong. It may make them re-assess. Maybe. At most they may conduct a few statistical models, do some gamer samplings, demographic surveys, you know the stuff people get graduate degrees for. But they aren't gonna freak out because there were 2000 posts crying 'FOUL'. I'm not saying corporations never make mistakes, I'm just saying that when they do, they end up like ENRON, not like SOE.
So with that, I too will gladly, cheerfully say to all you haters of SOE out there, "Goodbye and good riddance". I'll enjoy seeing you flame Blizzard.
Originally posted by Storm83 Originally posted by tetsulYou forgot "more bandwidth for me"Thanks for pushing me from indifferent to total adversion. Nothing good has ever come whenever I start seeing these type of comments about a game. Saw them popping up at the end of AO beta, during MCO and E&B, SB beta, and near release of WW2Online. To me it's a sign that that a plane is going to crash into a train, fly off the tracks into an explosives factory and all end up landing on an orphanage. Let me take a wild guess from those who were there, same type of comments were popping up on the forums around NGE time in Star Wars right?They never told us about the NGE, until it was on test server heading for live server. The NGE was coded in total secrecy.
In my opinion, if Sony did not own SOE, then SOE would have died by now, but thats just me. Their CEO should be taken out side and flogged...
Devs make a game - they keep players interested in the game by creating new content and giving them things to do... if a dev team forgets who pays for their paychecks then shame on them...
what is better? screwing your fan base so you can make more money? well it might work right off the bat... but if you look at the big picture over time that will catch up and bite them in the arse...
I think if you create a game and you have a strong player base and listen to your player base, and stick to the origional concept you will hold a higher praise and maintain your fans longer... I dont expect the game project I am involved in C:O will be a massive player base because of the PVP aspect our game will have -- however I do expect that our playerbase will be loyal and strong one for the simple fact is we are gamers just like you and plan on being as close to our community as possible even playing our game with them...
if any of you know of qwest communications or USwest communcations look at what not treating your customers well will do to a company over time... Quest was really bad (still are) treated their customers like dirt and didnt care... they also owned a monopoly - when the communcations act of 1996 was established people jumped ship as quickly as other communcations companies sprung up...
Now quest is sitting on the verge of bankruptcy and all of the sudden said hey customers we love you come back to us well treat you better! -- most say not just no...but hell no! some say well ok ill try you one more time and then get screwed bill and call up CS and they say haha soo what... boom now qwest is going under, perhaps XO will buy them out who knows..
be a bad company with all the $$ sooner or later poor tactics will come back to bite ye in the arse~!
Comments
EQ1 - Shaman & Cleric 1999-2003
Others Played: AC1, AC2, AO, EQ2, EVE(Beta Tester), SWG(pre-NGE/CU), Guildwars, TSO, MxO(Beta Tester), Lineage 1, Lineage 2, WOW, COV/COH, DDO, Vanguard(Beta Tester), DAOC, Tabula Rasa
My blog:
http://www.littlesarbonn.com
You guys all whining and moaning about SoE taking over and not buying it? Good, you and the pre-CU SWG folks can all go join a club somewhere and cry cause you can't get "your" game back.
Dumbed down? Yeap you sure are.
Did I mybe insault you? Did I call you names? Why you have to act like some kid... I can't have my opinion?
Like I want this game to turn out to be crap... I don't want that. I'v been fallowing this game for over a year now. But SOE is a bad news... I just have very bad feeling about this.
Cya.
SOE has been branded the red-headed stepchild of the gaming world, especially with MMORPGs, with good reason. They started well with EQ but then saw the massive income streams that MMORPGs can provide and they, in my eyes, became exclusively "profit-oriented".
They forgot that MMORPGs are as much of an art as a science and, at the other end of their income stream, is a player/customer who needs to be satisfied. Whether that be with challenging mechanics or new and interesting content, MMORPG customers need to be addressed and respected. Like any business, you piss off your customers/subscribers you will lose them. Once the word of mouth/internet flames spill over to other game forums ... well .... you are a sinking ship.
I for one support Sigil's move to take further control of their product. I just wish they could have done it with someone else besides SOE. Other suggestions have been made but did they fit the bill for Sigil's Vision? Maybe they did not have the resources that uber SOE did? Who knows. Brad does I bet. Maybe he can enlighten us if this was a one bid process or were other companies considered?
The move is also very good for SOE. If they can somehow ride on the coattails of a successful Sigil product, they may remove some of the tarnish from their name. In my mind, not enough to lure back the majority of the players that they have alienated, but some. Eventually, they may even claim an ambiguous position in the MMORPG community.
But, that's another story.
Thanks for not playing!
I know people say that SoE has no control at all of Vanguard. But they are still partners, maybe not 50/50 partners but still. I believe that gives them atleast some say in things, even if it's not the final word that Sigil has. I don't care what Brad and the press releases say about no control what so ever, that's most likely not 100% true.
Just my 2 gold coins.
EQ1 - Shaman & Cleric 1999-2003
Others Played: AC1, AC2, AO, EQ2, EVE(Beta Tester), SWG(pre-NGE/CU), Guildwars, TSO, MxO(Beta Tester), Lineage 1, Lineage 2, WOW, COV/COH, DDO, Vanguard(Beta Tester), DAOC, Tabula Rasa
Shame I can't say the same for SOE when SWG was lagging so badly that dead bodies would slide around the floor at random for about 30 secs after combat had ended, but then I guess SOE felt SWG wasn't worth the hardware upgrade.
Still as with any MMO everyones experience can be different, but I think you'll find SOE just about has the worse support rep in the business.
You've been playing EQ2 since release and have never encountered bugs that keep you from playing or cause massive issues?
I played it for a year and was constantly experiencing gameplay issues and bugs. Let's talk about just a few that I can remember:
Those are just a FEW of the problems SoE has with EQ2. Let's not even mention what they did to SWG.
Just because you can't see the problems that SoE has in maintaining their games and customers, doesn't mean that others don't have problems with them. Maybe you've been playing SoE games so long, that you actually don't know how a decent, honest company operates? ;P
Those are all personal issues "you" apparently had. I personally didn't experience anything on that list which in any way negatively impacted my gameplay. EQ2 is a very very good game. If you haven't played in the last several months, you probably have not experienced what the game really has to offer.
Do me a favor and don't bother responding to this post. Nothing I, nor anyone else, says is going to change your apparent biased dislike for SOE.
Sorry... today just doesn't happen to be your day for favors. /giggle I have a right to express my "biased" opinion, just as much as you have to express your 'biased" opinion.
The issues I listed are not only my "personal" issues, but the issues of many people who are playing/have played EQ2. Just take a look at their forums. There is a huge crashing issue that has been discussed on the forums since January and is still causing major problems.
SOE's customer service is a total joke, whether or not you choose to admit it or just accept it as GOOD customer service. They're rude, unhelpful and close tickets without giving you a chance to respond to the "working as intended" auto-generated responses from a customer service team who can't spell, let alone use the English language correctly.
If you think EQ2 is such a wonderful game and SOE is such a wonderful company, then good for you.. I wish you luck with them. That doesn't mean I can't disagree with you and point out my experience (along with many others who will agree).
The only thing Sigil will benefit from having SOE publish their game is the possibility that SOE customers will play Vanguard. The majority of the followers of Vanguard were people who no longer wanted to associate with SOE. Take a good look at the forums and ratings since it was announced.. people generally are NOT happy with this move.
_________________________________
JonMichael
Currently: AION, an MMO Beta under NDA
Played: WAR, LOTRO, Hellgate: London, CoX, GW, SotNW, DAOC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AO, Horizons, Second Life, There, TSO
Beta'd: There, Second Life, EQ2, DAOC:LotM, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, Gods and Heroes, Hellgate: London, Requiem:Bloodymare, AoC, WAR, DDO, Fallen Earth
I am always amazed at how a certain segment of the population seems to think it is a 'good' thing when folks don't subcribe to a game or leave a game because they are not having a good time.
DDO is the perfect example of this. It is going into the crapper and all the FanBoyz can say to those leaving is 'Good Bye and Good Riddance'. DDO only sold about 300,000 copies (Turbines numbers); there are far, far fewer people subscribing; maybe a 10th that number (my guess).
So, don't be so anxious to wave goodby to former V:SoH advocates; it is NOT a good thing that they are bailing on the game. It is NOT a good thing that V:SoH has fallen totally off the anticipated list. It is NOT a good thing that SOE is involved after all the 'independent' talk from Sigil.
I for one will not be pre-ordering, or even launch ordering, V:SoH. I intend to wait and read what actually has been done to the game. I predict it will be made much more 'friendly' than the original specifications called for. SOE is still looking for a 'blockbuster' MMORPG with which to compete agains WoW (good luck with that!). EQ2 was a bust, and the way V:SoH was originally specced, it also would not meet that definition. So, expect a much changed V:SoH design philosophy with SOE involved.
Just my 2c based on years of experience playing SOE games (EQ, MOL, EQ2, PS).
I am always amazed at how a certain segment of the population seems to think it is a 'good' thing when folks don't subcribe to a game or leave a game because they are not having a good time.
DDO is the perfect example of this. It is going into the crapper and all the FanBoyz can say to those leaving is 'Good Bye and Good Riddance'. DDO only sold about 300,000 copies (Turbines numbers); there are far, far fewer people subscribing; maybe a 10th that number (my guess).
So, don't be so anxious to wave goodby to former V:SoH advocates; it is NOT a good thing that they are bailing on the game. It is NOT a good thing that V:SoH has fallen totally off the anticipated list. It is NOT a good thing that SOE is involved after all the 'independent' talk from Sigil.
I for one will not be pre-ordering, or even launch ordering, V:SoH. I intend to wait and read what actually has been done to the game. I predict it will be made much more 'friendly' than the original specifications called for. SOE is still looking for a 'blockbuster' MMORPG with which to compete agains WoW (good luck with that!). EQ2 was a bust, and the way V:SoH was originally specced, it also would not meet that definition. So, expect a much changed V:SoH design philosophy with SOE involved.
Just my 2c based on years of experience playing SOE games (EQ, MOL, EQ2, PS).
Excellent, insightful post!
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JonMichael
Currently: AION, an MMO Beta under NDA
Played: WAR, LOTRO, Hellgate: London, CoX, GW, SotNW, DAOC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AO, Horizons, Second Life, There, TSO
Beta'd: There, Second Life, EQ2, DAOC:LotM, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, Gods and Heroes, Hellgate: London, Requiem:Bloodymare, AoC, WAR, DDO, Fallen Earth
Everybody seems to think this is a bad issue when nobody truely knows what it might have turned into if Sigil stayed with Microsoft... With Microsoft having a LOT more power over Vanguard than SoE will have. It's a co-publishing deal, SoE is just forking over some cash to give Sigil the financial backbone it needs to get its game to the shelf.
Case in point: Play the game for the Game, who cares about SoE.
-m_dave
http://twitter.com/xmcgraw
HAHA poor sigil, I just saw half of vanguards players get abolished before they even had a chance to play -- Poor business move from sigil to sign with SOE -
thousands and thousands of people are boycotting SOE anything, just think thats probably millions of $$ now will be directed else were...
From a developers stand point I am extremely happy that Sigil signed with SOE, why? Less people will play vanguard and more will come play Conflict Omega when we release!
Conflict Omega
I too miss SWG, maybe the bioware rumor will be true... hoping
Tatsit
Tantus Games
COO/Game Director
Saerain, SOE is bad karma - just to have that name is a hex
If voodoo fusion made a deal with SOE, I would quit the C:O project if the thought alone didnt already taint my karma :P
Tatsit
Tantus Games
COO/Game Director
You forgot "more bandwidth for me"
Thanks for pushing me from indifferent to total adversion. Nothing good has ever come whenever I start seeing these type of comments about a game. Saw them popping up at the end of AO beta, during MCO and E&B, SB beta, and near release of WW2Online. To me it's a sign that that a plane is going to crash into a train, fly off the tracks into an explosives factory and all end up landing on an orphanage. Let me take a wild guess from those who were there, same type of comments were popping up on the forums around NGE time in Star Wars right?
Here's a new thought:
Perhaps Vanguard may have ensured some longevity with this move. There are lots of folks talking aboout the mmorpg populations becoming diluted due to the number of games out there available. The fantasy genre is especially bloated and into this market comes Vanguard.
Speculation may be that the games won't survive due to low populations; i.e., not enough revenue coming in to keep stockholders happy 'cuz the market is spread too thin.
Teaming with SOE, getting on the station pass, will form sort of an 'alliance' of games. People may be playing EQ, EQ2, Planetside, SWG (don't laugh) or Vanguard, all of these games or just a few of them. In anycase, the revenues of all games in one pot would help each game's longevity with thinner populations.
The truth is that no mmo can ever match what EQ was doing back in the day. We keep getting disappointed in games low populations...Auto Assault, DDO, SWG. Many blame the developers directions with those games, but my opinion is the bloated market may have more to do with low populations than anything else.
So how does Brad achieve his vision? Take subscribers out of the business equation. In SOE his game will survive and develop, even with low numbers. I say this isn't a bold move, this is a conservative move and a smart one.
actually its probably a wash.
really the only people that are that upset with SOE are SWG players. And there really wasnt a lot of SWG players. Before CU even came around SWG was down about half of its subscribers. You also lose the occasional asshat that hates SOE because they think its the cool thing to do but really have no reason to. And there are some that think SOE screwed up EQ and again thats a very small group of people.
On the flipside is all the current EQ and EQ2 players that will likely give the game a try if its on station access. that will likely even out the score.
Even if true, that's still damning. One of Vangaurd's core constituncies was going to be SWG refugees. Getting into an agreement with the company that drove a lot of your core constituency away before is not a wise move.
Furthermore, the implications were a lot wider than just SWG players. Many people who never touched SWG were appalled at the deception and indifference to customers Smedley and friends displayed. Sony already had a notorious reputation for being one of the worst customer service companies around. It took quite some time for EQ2 to be a decent game. (It's improving, if you like linear grab you by the hand no freedom MMO's where the goal is to have insert amount of man raids, which I can't stand, though I think EQ2's mentor system was a stroke of genius, though that's getting offtopic)
so now that ms has teamed with funcom and admit to being involved with the actual development, i bet that doesn't bother you one bit right?
does it now need to be totally spelled out for you that ms wanted to mess with the development of vanguard and sigil would have no part of it?
hate soe all you want, it is understandable.......but i don't blame sigil one freaking bit for buying back the rites to vanguard....if ms wants to meddle with the development of an mmog they are publishing, let them go to funcom.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
In my opinion, if Sony did not own SOE, then SOE would have died by now, but thats just me. Their CEO should be taken out side and flogged...
Devs make a game - they keep players interested in the game by creating new content and giving them things to do... if a dev team forgets who pays for their paychecks then shame on them...
what is better? screwing your fan base so you can make more money? well it might work right off the bat... but if you look at the big picture over time that will catch up and bite them in the arse...
I think if you create a game and you have a strong player base and listen to your player base, and stick to the origional concept you will hold a higher praise and maintain your fans longer... I dont expect the game project I am involved in C:O will be a massive player base because of the PVP aspect our game will have -- however I do expect that our playerbase will be loyal and strong one for the simple fact is we are gamers just like you and plan on being as close to our community as possible even playing our game with them...
if any of you know of qwest communications or USwest communcations look at what not treating your customers well will do to a company over time... Quest was really bad (still are) treated their customers like dirt and didnt care... they also owned a monopoly - when the communcations act of 1996 was established people jumped ship as quickly as other communcations companies sprung up...
Now quest is sitting on the verge of bankruptcy and all of the sudden said hey customers we love you come back to us well treat you better! -- most say not just no...but hell no! some say well ok ill try you one more time and then get screwed bill and call up CS and they say haha soo what... boom now qwest is going under, perhaps XO will buy them out who knows..
be a bad company with all the $$ sooner or later poor tactics will come back to bite ye in the arse~!
Tatsit
Tantus Games
COO/Game Director
well its clear now that Microsoft droped Sigil not the other way around.
http://www.mmorpg.com/E32006NewsRoom.cfm/loadNews/5224