People sure do like to ruin other people's fun, don't they? What does everyone see wrong with VSOH? It seems like most the argument is based around SOE and how they screw games up. Prove to me they screwed Vanguard up!!!! You can't? Why? Because the games not out?
I honestly hope this is a niche game. Niche games have the best communities. Either way, SOE or Microsoft, I'm going to get this game. This game is going to rock.
This is how I view games these days in the MMORPG world. You either have Mainstream games or Niche games.
Mainstream game are more of your Quantity over Quality. You try to serve to many people out there as you can and you do, but you don't hold a good community (World of Warcraft, Guild Wars, Everquest 2, possibly WAR and possibly AoC...they seem to be popular for the time being)
Niche games are more of your Quality over quantity. Sure, some people may not like these games, but they have a really nice Community and strong player base to them, these are your more common MMORPG. (Ultima Online, Everquest, Vanguard when it comes out, DAoC, Lineage 2, MxO, RF Online, SWG before it sucked..etc.)
As you see, people will complain about Niche games because they think they will fail. They think that if it's not mainstream then it will suck and not get any subscribers. To the naysayers of Vanguard. . .go to the VSOH official forum and look at how many people are registered and looking forward to the game releasing. Sure, it might not be WoW size, but it's big enough to keep the game going. I will never play a Mainstream MMO again, because I know the gameplay and quality of the game isn't going to give me what I want. The community will more than likely be bad and it will serve to the more general audience. Another way you can tell a game is too mainstream, when you see it on the AOL AIM startup screen almost once every week.
Look at it like this:
Greenday. I used to love this band way back in the day when they had dookie and so on. Since their last albumn released, I can't stand them anymore. And it's not because I hear them on the radio (I don't listen to the radio) it's because I think the sound has changed, it's too poppy for my taste anymore.
Same thing with MMO's now. We get people on here judging games by it's "Poppy" gameplay. If it's not like EQ2 or WoW or how WAR and AOC will be like, then it's not worth playing. To hell with that idea and to hell with people trying to draw me away from my Vanguard!
/played-mmorpgs
Total time played:9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
Bielieve it or not, I can really understand how people will bash the game just becuase it is affiliated with SOE.
Okay Im going to be blunt here. SOE is a bunch of lying, canniving, snickering bunch of thieves. They stole my money, stole yours, stole other players' money. They lie lilke theres no tommorow. They treated us like crap. They practically made SWG's playerbase beta test their new concoction for the PS3. It was like live animal testing. Yes, I know the subscribers to SWG at this point are...err...not the brightest bulbs in the bunch by still paying those thieves, but they dont deserve this. SOE has lied about many things in the past and they may take over development of Vanguard in the future. Thats why everyone is so riled up. So I can understand why people now dont like this game.
But will it stop most of the newly introduced MMO playerbase from buying it? Of course not. SOE are masters of marketing and deception and they will definitly have this in stores backed up with postive reviews. BUT: this game will not survive. Like most people have said this is a niche game, and will only appeal to a smaller audience. Once people see that this game has restricted character custimization and boring grinding, they will leave. Only a small but fanatical percentage of players really enjoy clicking on a computer controlled monster on a screen over and over again for 5 hours at a time.
However, I do not agree with the above poster telling us that Mainstream games are of low quality. They are not. WoW is a of great quality, that is why it stays the most popular MMO to this date. I definitly think, after seeing the absolutely excellent trailer for WAR, it may just be the next "big game" indeed.
Sincerely,
Dr. Steelarm
-------------------------------------------
Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 Bielieve it or not, I can really understand how people will bash the game just becuase it is affiliated with SOE. Okay Im going to be blunt here. SOE is a bunch of lying, canniving, snickering bunch of thieves. They stole my money, stole yours, stole other players' money. They lie lilke theres no tommorow. They treated us like crap. They practically made SWG's playerbase beta test their new concoction for the PS3. It was like live animal testing. Yes, I know the subscribers to SWG at this point are...err...not the brightest bulbs in the bunch by still paying those thieves, but they dont deserve this. SOE has lied about many things in the past and they may take over development of Vanguard in the future. Thats why everyone is so riled up. So I can understand why people now dont like this game. But will it stop most of the newly introduced MMO playerbase from buying it? Of course not. SOE are masters of marketing and deception and they will definitly have this in stores backed up with postive reviews. BUT: this game will not survive. Like most people have said this is a niche game, and will only appeal to a smaller audience. Once people see that this game has restricted character custimization and boring grinding, they will leave. Only a small but fanatical percentage of players really enjoy clicking on a computer controlled monster on a screen over and over again for 5 hours at a time. However, I do not agree with the above poster telling us that Mainstream games are of low quality. They are not. WoW is a of great quality, that is why it stays the most popular MMO to this date. I definitly think, after seeing the absolutely excellent trailer for WAR, it may just be the next "big game" indeed. Sincerely, Dr. Steelarm
I don't want anyone else but Mr. Dr. Steelarm to answer this.
Steelarm, please tell me why SOE is a bunch of lying, canniving, snickering bunch of thieves. Tell me in detail what they lied about. I want to know if your just saying what everyone else is saying or if you really know what SOE does.
Second off Steelleg, people don't play games just because of companies. I don't know where and what you got your DR degree in, but maybe you should go back to school to get it again. People play games because they enjoy it. Some people, believe it or not, are enjoying Star Wars Galaxies. Some people Playing WoW like it. Some people playing Matrix Online play it because they like it. I sure as hell do not play a game because of who's on the box. If the game's fun, then it's fun. The day I start playing games because of who is on the lable of the box is the day I lose my gamer identity.
Third off, Mr. Steelman. People who use bold letters and differnt colors only use it because they can't get any other way to get their point across and they feel that is necessary when in actuality it isn't. I, Steeldude, am a gamer because I enjoy game. You sir are not a gamer, because you play companies.
/played-mmorpgs
Total time played:9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
Once people see that this game has restricted character custimization and boring grinding, they will leave. Only a small but fanatical percentage of players really enjoy clicking on a computer controlled monster on a screen over and over again for 5 hours at a time. However, I do not agree with the above poster telling us that Mainstream games are of low quality. They are not. WoW is a of great quality, that is why it stays the most popular MMO to this date. I definitly think, after seeing the absolutely excellent trailer for WAR, it may just be the next "big game" indeed. Sincerely, Dr. Steelarm
Let me tell you something else. Since when did WoW become a game where you don't click around to attack and move? Since when did WoW NOT have a character customization restriction. Have you not seen Vanguard's character customization? Obviously you should do some research before you judge something doc. Since when did WAR or WoW NOT become a game where you don't have to grind for 5 hours staight. You sir, are a fucking moron.
/played-mmorpgs
Total time played:9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
Steeldude, am a gamer because I enjoy game. You sir are not a gamer, because you play companies.
i have to disagree and i think you are just being nearsighted and shallow in your thinking ...
perhaps i would need many more lines of dialogue, and a lot more time to teach you everything i have come to learn with my time on this planet ... but i will try to summarize things for you ...
market sharks .. ALWAYS .. ALWAYS lead to lesser quality products .. and less availabity of alternatives. whether those be experiences, products, whatever ...
MICROSOFT, was able to shark its way into the OS market .. and now because of this you have a uniformic computer end user market extremely susceptible to viruses because there is only one foundation to develope them for .. you have price gouging ( windows xp has been out for over 6 years and still costs 200$ .. no alternatives worth a damn ( any of these beaitufl mmo's u see on this site run on windows)
you look at the video game console market and what happened to it as soon as sony and microsoft get involved .. you saw the death of sega, NEC pcengine ( turbografx 16) you saw the death of NEO GEO, and now your seeing the death of nintendo with only sony and M$ the two super powers going to be left ...
now that sony stands to have over 50% of the market share what are they going to do? set up PS3's with hard security root checks so that you wont even be able to play a rented game or a friends game in your PS3 .. and why can they do this? because theres no other system out there cept Xbox you can buy .. and microsoft will probably follow sony's lead ( they already have installed a root security kit in your windows as of this month through a windows update )
so here we have sony in the MMO market ... and what have they done for the GENRE AND MARKET SO FAR?
screwing paying customers over refusing to give them refunds ( refusing to give refunds for the TOOW expansions ... double charging people ( this is documented you can do your research or just ask people in here i was one of them and had to call my credit card company to investigate, and letting people's subscription run on long after they cancelled) ..
lying about expansions...( lying about what the TOOW expansion would provide and which classes it would support .. lying about the esitence of the NGE prior to the TOOW expansion as not to deter sales of the expansion)
price gouging ( they made SWG veterans the first people to sign up who supported the game for 3 years .. the REAL STAR WARS FANS ) pay a full $40 for the box ... buy the box over and over for alternative characters ... pay for each expansions seperately and then said the needed this to make a profiit ... now they not only sell star wars with the expansions in one set they sell it with 4 other games for $39 !!!!
and the list goes on and on .. I can get into MUCH MORE DETAIL .. and cite MANY MANY MORE EXAMPLES ... but all you have to do is do a search for this name or neurox1 and read my previous posts in that I have enlightened people hundreds of times ...to what sony has done with eq AND other games ...
now you ask " why do you buy a game accourding to the company publishing/developing it" or " why do you play companies"
THATS WHY .. because we arent shallow thinkers .. we arent narrow minded or short sighted ... people like me SEE the future of the MMO market and genre if you let companies like SOE bully themselves into a monopoly of the market .. or untill fewer and fewer companies are left untill its only a handful running everything and the strategies they employ to secure profit become standard ....
you think its any coincidence that sony will have its name on MORE MMORPG boxes this yea than any other company out there? perhaps on more boxes int he next two years than the rest of the other smaller companies put together?
use your brain ... but more importantly .. USE YOUR POWER AS A CONSUMER >> BEFORE YOU LOOSE YOUR LAST POWER AS A CONSUMER ... YOUR RIGHT TO CHOOSE ..
Steeldude, am a gamer because I enjoy game. You sir are not a gamer, because you play companies.
i have to disagree and i think you are just being nearsighted and shallow in your thinking ...
perhaps i would need many more lines of dialogue, and a lot more time to teach you everything i have come to learn with my time on this planet ... but i will try to summarize things for you ...
market sharks .. ALWAYS .. ALWAYS lead to lesser quality products .. and less availabity of alternatives. whether those be experiences, products, whatever ...
MICROSOFT, was able to shark its way into the OS market .. and now because of this you have a uniformic computer end user market extremely susceptible to viruses because there is only one foundation to develope them for .. you have price gouging ( windows xp has been out for over 6 years and still costs 200$ .. no alternatives worth a damn ( any of these beaitufl mmo's u see on this site run on windows)
you look at the video game console market and what happened to it as soon as sony and microsoft get involved .. you saw the death of sega, NEC pcengine ( turbografx 16) you saw the death of NEO GEO, and now your seeing the death of nintendo with only sony and M$ the two super powers going to be left ...
now that sony stands to have over 50% of the market share what are they going to do? set up PS3's with hard security root checks so that you wont even be able to play a rented game or a friends game in your PS3 .. and why can they do this? because theres no other system out there cept Xbox you can buy .. and microsoft will probably follow sony's lead ( they already have installed a root security kit in your windows as of this month through a windows update )
so here we have sony in the MMO market ... and what have they done for the GENRE AND MARKET SO FAR?
screwing paying customers over refusing to give them refunds ( refusing to give refunds for the TOOW expansions ... double charging people ( this is documented you can do your research or just ask people in here i was one of them and had to call my credit card company to investigate, and letting people's subscription run on long after they cancelled) ..
lying about expansions...( lying about what the TOOW expansion would provide and which classes it would support .. lying about the esitence of the NGE prior to the TOOW expansion as not to deter sales of the expansion)
price gouging ( they made SWG veterans the first people to sign up who supported the game for 3 years .. the REAL STAR WARS FANS ) pay a full $40 for the box ... buy the box over and over for alternative characters ... pay for each expansions seperately and then said the needed this to make a profiit ... now they not only sell star wars with the expansions in one set they sell it with 4 other games for $39 !!!!
and the list goes on and on .. I can get into MUCH MORE DETAIL .. and cite MANY MANY MORE EXAMPLES ... but all you have to do is do a search for this name or neurox1 and read my previous posts in that I have enlightened people hundreds of times ...to what sony has done with eq AND other games ...
now you ask " why do you buy a game accourding to the company publishing/developing it" or " why do you play companies"
THATS WHY .. because we arent shallow thinkers .. we arent narrow minded or short sighted ... people like me SEE the future of the MMO market and genre if you let companies like SOE bully themselves into a monopoly of the market .. or untill fewer and fewer companies are left untill its only a handful running everything and the strategies they employ to secure profit become standard ....
you think its any coincidence that sony will have its name on MORE MMORPG boxes this yea than any other company out there? perhaps on more boxes int he next two years than the rest of the other smaller companies put together?
use your brain ... but more importantly .. USE YOUR POWER AS A CONSUMER >> BEFORE YOU LOOSE YOUR LAST POWER AS A CONSUMER ... YOUR RIGHT TO CHOOSE ..
You might want to be careful about turning threads into "I hate SOE" threads again. You remember what happened last time.
"so here we have sony in the MMO market ... and what have they done for the GENRE AND MARKET SO FAR?"
EQ was the most popular MMO for years, and still continues on with over 250k subscribers. Seems like they did something called "Pioneering", by far the best PVE game made. UO being the best PVP.
And Sony created EQ. Sony created Verant. So they never "bought it out" like so many people seem to think.
Also we are CHOOSING. We CHOOSE to play games if they are FUN, if they arent FUN we won't play them. No matter who makes or publishes them. If Vanguard isn't FUN to me I won't play it. Funny you say everyone else is narrow-minded when YOU are the one who won't try a game because it says SOE.
Ya I think overall Vanguard had a very successful E3. They had good placement in the SOE booths and the announcement of the switch to Sony made people curious so it attacted attention.
I think that most reviewers were very impressed by the Sigil team and how excited and passionate they were about the game.
The only negative that came up a few times was the graphics were not up to par. This seems like something that can be easily improved. The backbone of the game, the world and story and how everything fits together, that seems very solid.
I'm wondering if SOE won't be able to lend some development staff on the sly perhaps to help Sigil finish up.
Who knows how it will pan out. I think the Sigil folks with all their passion might just be able to fend off the insidious parts of SOE's influence and produce the game they want to make. Maybe the good guys can win this round.
As I stated earlier, a very contraversal game now with soe's involvement. But people will still play it if they like it. Thats just the way it goes. But (imo), it wont be a grand slam in mmo industry since not everyone is looking to play it now with the recent news.
Originally posted by HiGHPLaiNS wow, never saw many posts deleted in a topic LOL As I stated earlier, a very contraversal game now with soe's involvement. But people will still play it if they like it. Thats just the way it goes. But (imo), it wont be a grand slam in mmo industry since not everyone is looking to play it now with the recent news.
I don't think it was ever gonna be a grand slam. Just a game that caters to more hardcore, classic EQ style people. That's why i'm interested in it, i don't want a game like WoW that's just so easy to do everything, so it appeals to even the most casual of players. I never get super hyped on a game so even if it ends up sucking huge there will be other very good games coming out.
Here is hoping.
EDIT: Odd my last post was deleted, it actually got this thread back on topic.
Originally posted by JMoney95 Originally posted by HiGHPLaiNS wow, never saw many posts deleted in a topic LOL As I stated earlier, a very contraversal game now with soe's involvement. But people will still play it if they like it. Thats just the way it goes. But (imo), it wont be a grand slam in mmo industry since not everyone is looking to play it now with the recent news.
I don't think it was ever gonna be a grand slam. Just a game that caters to more hardcore, classic EQ style people. That's why i'm interested in it, i don't want a game like WoW that's just so easy to do everything, so it appeals to even the most casual of players. I never get super hyped on a game so even if it ends up sucking huge there will be other very good games coming out.
Here is hoping.
EDIT: Odd my last post was deleted, it actually got this thread back on topic.
Here's to Vanguard catering to the vets in this genre.
/played-mmorpgs
Total time played:9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
Originally posted by Droigan No, I'm sorry to dissapoint you.
You see. At once the SOE logo hit the box, the game was destroyed!!111oneshiftone! It doesn't matter that SOE can't touch the development It doesn't matter that SOE gave Sigil several huge stands, one at a prime location at an entrance (whereas MS gave them a tiny one last time without air condition) It doesn't matter that the avenues where SOE is a part of Vanguard are the ones where SOE are pretty much the best in the industry (distribution/servers/stability) All that matters is that Vanguard was destroyed immediately SOE came into play. And it sucks now. It used to be good, but due to who is printing the actual DVDs now, it will suck. Ok. Get that? Install it and Smed will eat your babies.
And by the way. Before anyone from the "SOE ate my baby and killed by dog and kidnapped my little sister" camp falls in line to agree with my conclusion above, it was written in sarcasm.
One rule of being sarcastic is not telling your readers you're being sarcastic. I hate when people do that.
Originally posted by MaeEye Originally posted by Steelarm011 Bielieve it or not, I can really understand how people will bash the game just becuase it is affiliated with SOE. Okay Im going to be blunt here. SOE is a bunch of lying, canniving, snickering bunch of thieves. They stole my money, stole yours, stole other players' money. They lie lilke theres no tommorow. They treated us like crap. They practically made SWG's playerbase beta test their new concoction for the PS3. It was like live animal testing. Yes, I know the subscribers to SWG at this point are...err...not the brightest bulbs in the bunch by still paying those thieves, but they dont deserve this. SOE has lied about many things in the past and they may take over development of Vanguard in the future. Thats why everyone is so riled up. So I can understand why people now dont like this game. But will it stop most of the newly introduced MMO playerbase from buying it? Of course not. SOE are masters of marketing and deception and they will definitly have this in stores backed up with postive reviews. BUT: this game will not survive. Like most people have said this is a niche game, and will only appeal to a smaller audience. Once people see that this game has restricted character custimization and boring grinding, they will leave. Only a small but fanatical percentage of players really enjoy clicking on a computer controlled monster on a screen over and over again for 5 hours at a time. However, I do not agree with the above poster telling us that Mainstream games are of low quality. They are not. WoW is a of great quality, that is why it stays the most popular MMO to this date. I definitly think, after seeing the absolutely excellent trailer for WAR, it may just be the next "big game" indeed. Sincerely, Dr. Steelarm
I don't want anyone else but Mr. Dr. Steelarm to answer this.
Steelarm, please tell me why SOE is a bunch of lying, canniving, snickering bunch of thieves. Tell me in detail what they lied about. I want to know if your just saying what everyone else is saying or if you really know what SOE does.
Second off Steelleg, people don't play games just because of companies. I don't know where and what you got your DR degree in, but maybe you should go back to school to get it again. People play games because they enjoy it. Some people, believe it or not, are enjoying Star Wars Galaxies. Some people Playing WoW like it. Some people playing Matrix Online play it because they like it. I sure as hell do not play a game because of who's on the box. If the game's fun, then it's fun. The day I start playing games because of who is on the lable of the box is the day I lose my gamer identity.
Third off, Mr. Steelman. People who use bold letters and differnt colors only use it because they can't get any other way to get their point across and they feel that is necessary when in actuality it isn't. I, Steeldude, am a gamer because I enjoy game. You sir are not a gamer, because you play companies.
Originally posted by MaeEye Originally posted by Steelarm011
Once people see that this game has restricted character custimization and boring grinding, they will leave. Only a small but fanatical percentage of players really enjoy clicking on a computer controlled monster on a screen over and over again for 5 hours at a time. However, I do not agree with the above poster telling us that Mainstream games are of low quality. They are not. WoW is a of great quality, that is why it stays the most popular MMO to this date. I definitly think, after seeing the absolutely excellent trailer for WAR, it may just be the next "big game" indeed. Sincerely, Dr. Steelarm Let me tell you something else. Since when did WoW become a game where you don't click around to attack and move? Since when did WoW NOT have a character customization restriction. Have you not seen Vanguard's character customization? Obviously you should do some research before you judge something doc. Since when did WAR or WoW NOT become a game where you don't have to grind for 5 hours staight. You sir, are a fucking moron.
Whoa! I honestly didnt expect this harsh of a response included with bits of flaming in it - in fact, I posted in other more controversial topics and I didnt get any flames in it.
First of all, to address the SOE issue. As in an above poster's reponse of listing different things that SOE has lied about - yes I have first hand expierience of the double charging of my credit card - they actually charged me when I unsubsribed from the game for an extra month. But thats just one miniscule event. Expansions were lied about, classes, proffessions etc. The box selling is outrageous, selling expansions for an individual price and then selling a "Gold Pack" including all expansions for 1 nice price. But the bottom of the line is, is that they have done so much we have lost count. To be honest I dont follow SOE all that much like other ex SWG players, so I dont know exact dates - I left earlier and quite frankly I want nothing to do with SOE in general. I wont spend time researching on giving you exact dates, exact events becuase...well quite frankly your not worth my time. But you can go type in their name on google and look on previous posts on different forums and see what Im talking about. I try to keep a broad scope on all games - so I know a little stuff about everything.
There is also the fact that SOE made their SWG playerbase practically beta test their new game for the PS3, while paying SOE their cash. But you missed that apparently.
Second of all, I never said that players play games because of companies. Your putting words where I never said them. I totally agree with you that people play games because they like it. And good for them, whatever floats their boat. However what Im saying is that people should use caution when seeing a certain publisher's name on the box. Have respect for yourself and your fellow gamers. Remember how they treat you. You sir seem to be taking the side of the companies, when you say that your taking the side of the gamer. Remember what SOE did. Have some self respect.
By the way, I got my doctor degree as a nickname from a bunch of friends. Ever since getting into MMO's since DAOC, they always went to me for advice on games. Currently their playing Asheron's Call and they are having a blast.
Thirdly, I use big bold letters to show my utter contempt for a gaming company that has disrespected fellow gamers and friends. I dont think thats a crime. By the way sir, I think you have our roles switched.
Now to adress your second post -
Again your putting words in my mouth. I never said WoW didnt have all the aspects Vanguard is going to have. WoW indeed DOES have long grinding, and restricted character custimization, thats why I left. if you would re read my post, I said WoW is of great quality, and indeed it is. Thats why it kept so many players. I know I may sound like I contradict myself when I said -
"Once peoplesee that this game has restricted character custimization and boring grinding, they will leave. Only a small but fanatical percentage of players really enjoy clicking on a computer controlled monster on a screen over and over again for 5 hours at atime. "
However the players Im talking about are the players that are expierienced gamers that have played multiple MMO's and know what they like. New players to MMO's that are in WoW really dont know what they like becuase they havent played anything else. And thats the sad part. Cause theres other more exciting games out there, in my opinion, that dont have these types of features.
By the way, I'd really refrain from cursing and flaming me in your next post. Cause this last one made you look like an idiot.
Sincerely,
Dr. Steelarm
-------------------------------------------
Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Originally posted by HiGHPLaiNS wow, never saw many posts deleted in a topic LOL As I stated earlier, a very contraversal game now with soe's involvement. But people will still play it if they like it. Thats just the way it goes. But (imo), it wont be a grand slam in mmo industry since not everyone is looking to play it now with the recent news.
The recent news will have little effect on the popularity of the game, i think the views of a vocal minority are being overplayed, the game's success rests on it's quality and content.
Look, I'm sorry I flamed you and cursed at you in my post Steelarm, but what you just said now is a total controdiction of what you were saying earlier. You told me not to take the side of a company, yet you sit here and flame SOE for every little thing.
I, for once, have had no problem with SOE. hence, I did not play SWG or MxO, but I have played EQ and EQ2, both very fine games. So to see someone just play a game because of a company is totally obsurd, unless you got a good reason. Second off, they are just publishing the game, barely that. They are CO publishers. Sigil has first right to it before SOE does. To say that "SOE WILL take over Sigil and buy them out" is just immature and very fanboi like (not saying you said this Steelarm, just saying this because alot of people do). No one has no idea what will happen, it's like most of the SOE haters think gypsy's and can see into the future.
Sorry I got off a bit and flamed the hell outta you, it just makes me upset and mad when someone comes in a VANGUARD forum and tries to tell us why we shouldn't play a game. You see this crap happen in WoW alot and it just bugs me. Sure, I don't like WoW, but what gives me the right to go in there and say that Blizzard are screw heads and you shouldn't play thier game?
This isn't SOE's game, this is Sigils game.
I appreciate that you're a vet of the genre. it seems like we have most the problems with the newer breed of MMOers (I'm from the UO era, 2000).
We got off on the wrong foot, Steelarm, me and you. Lets get back on it, I don't like to make enemies. I just want you to see it our way.
Another thing. . .many companies out there make mistakes. MANY! Dell for once, they sell computers that can be defective, they have horrible customer service, but to be honest, if you do get a nice computer, it works wonderful (like mines, I love my dell).
Lets see. EA. Ok, I hate EA more than anyone hates SOE, because of what EA did to Ultima Online. But I still buy EA games and I don't go around to EA forums and bash everyone there because they play EA games. SOE, like EA, make som decent games. I think EQ2 is a very well rounded game as the same with EQ. EA has some good games, like Battlefield and the burnout series.
/played-mmorpgs
Total time played:9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
I think you are interpreting some parts of my posts wrong. I never really said to all out never buy a game SOE endorses. I said I can understand why people dont want to buy the game specifically becuase of SOE backing them. Given their past history I can understand why. There is a reason why so many people hate SOE. Me personally? Well actually Ive decided to take some time off from MMO gaming and just post on these forums a bit on the guise of Steelarm, after spending long times in front of the comp I needed to get a life. Would I buy a game from SOE? In Vanguard's situation I would actually try it, becuase Sigil has full control on it...currently, but Vanguard isnt the game for me. Right now Im just waiting for the next really really fun, great, Grind-Lite-character freedomm-PvP driven MMO to come out and my hopes are still kinda down
But you can go in the forums if you want to and call them screwheads :P sure this is a forum it sparks debate i think its healthy for the genre to get its boundaries right. I actually think MMO's are wonderful becuase they all encourage community and teamwork (and at the same time absolutely evil becuase they make you addicted).
We actually agree alot more than you think.
By the way, its good to hear theres another vet out there. My first game was AC and it was awsome. Played on Darktide. I beielive nothing can compare to the adrenaline rush you get when youre on a FFA PVP server with looting Tried UO for a little, that game was good too. Too bad FFA PVP is dying out. I'll have to settle for some good ole RvR.
-------------------------------------------
Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
I mind that SOE is has a hand in it but you guys should know buisness and I am sick of people who have as much knowledge as a elementary student always complaining about every single thing. Before you go off talking, you should at least put into consideration Sigils side and stop being babies about it. If you don't like the game stop replying to it and if you do like the game then stop being so aggressive to those who are not smart enough to get a grip on reality, buisness, and childlike emotions.
Originally posted by beautyisin Originally posted by HiGHPLaiNS wow, never saw many posts deleted in a topic LOL As I stated earlier, a very contraversal game now with soe's involvement. But people will still play it if they like it. Thats just the way it goes. But (imo), it wont be a grand slam in mmo industry since not everyone is looking to play it now with the recent news.
The recent news will have little effect on the popularity of the game, i think the views of a vocal minority are being overplayed, the game's success rests on it's quality and content.
Doesnt matter what I think, the seed has been planted. Nothing good came out of this situtation. And the facts wont change.
Originally posted by Peckus SoE's involvement has little to do with my main concern. That it lack of PvP focus, has it looking like the next "WoW carebear PvP"
Not every game should be a pvp game, there is a big part of the players that prefer pve. Vanguard is being designed for the pve players. If you are a pvp player, you will have the chance to play in a pvp server.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 Well now thats more like it! I think you are interpreting some parts of my posts wrong. I never really said to all out never buy a game SOE endorses. I said I can understand why people dont want to buy the game specifically becuase of SOE backing them. Given their past history I can understand why. There is a reason why so many people hate SOE. Me personally? Well actually Ive decided to take some time off from MMO gaming and just post on these forums a bit on the guise of Steelarm, after spending long times in front of the comp I needed to get a life. Would I buy a game from SOE? In Vanguard's situation I would actually try it, becuase Sigil has full control on it...currently, but Vanguard isnt the game for me. Right now Im just waiting for the next really really fun, great, Grind-Lite-character freedomm-PvP driven MMO to come out and my hopes are still kinda down But you can go in the forums if you want to and call them screwheads :P sure this is a forum it sparks debate i think its healthy for the genre to get its boundaries right. I actually think MMO's are wonderful becuase they all encourage community and teamwork (and at the same time absolutely evil becuase they make you addicted). We actually agree alot more than you think. By the way, its good to hear theres another vet out there. My first game was AC and it was awsome. Played on Darktide. I beielive nothing can compare to the adrenaline rush you get when youre on a FFA PVP server with looting Tried UO for a little, that game was good too. Too bad FFA PVP is dying out. I'll have to settle for some good ole RvR.
Well, since you want FFA PvP Darkfall might be an option for you. Of course, the game has been on my "watch out" list, mainly because it seems so close to slipping off the edge.
RvR, well...if DAoC got it right with one game, I'm sure they can get it right with WAR. The only problem I have with WAR is that I fear the game will attract many of the WoW players to the table. Not that this is horrible, it's just that I would rather see a DAoC kind of community rather than another WoW community game. Get my drift?
having never tried AC, I know how good it is. A friend of mine used ot be addicted to it and played it all the time. But this was while I was playing UO. I couldn't play AC back in the day because my computer could barely hand UO, lol. I did, however, play AC2 and loved the game. I thought the art style of the game was awsome, loved the graphics. But the gameplay did get boring and just wasn't my thing.
I will agree with you though Steelarm, that this genre does lack the FFA PvP style games like we once knew. it seems like if you want those type of games, you will have to go in the past and play some of the older games. I just wish though that there would be a newer FFA PvP. Darkfall does bring it to the table, but I'm afraid not many people are attractive to the game for it to ever really make it. I will say though, that right now Lineage 2 is pretty fun. I'm kind of taking a break from the MMO world right now too (except a free L2 server), nothing really sparks my interest. . .so that's why I'm hoping Vanguard does it for me.
/played-mmorpgs
Total time played:9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
Wow. Thats alot of posts about this. Heres my take on this: Yes SOE doesnt have the best business practices out there, but in general large companies dont. Microsoft for one will do just about anything necessary to get what they want. All the hate about SOE is mainly based on their lack of creativity and inability to produce a fun game. So, who's fault is this? Thats right, the people in charge of the game; not the modellers, not the animators, not the customer service, and not the company as a whole. Just those few people that have direct creative control. Now alot of people will beleive that the "President" of the company has direct input in everything, and therefore is to blame. Well, sorta. Yes, the president is allowed creative direction of a game to be made, but 70% or so (I have no real idea, but the majorirty) of the control is up to the manager in charge of that one game. So if a company produces a game that is unfavorable, its mainly due to the manager and his concept of how the game is, not the company's as a whole.
So what does this say? Well for one, since Sigil is not SOE, SOE does not have direct input on who becomes in charge of Vanguard's creative direction. Therefore, many things that were disliked in SOE games have a great chance of not appearing in Sigil games unless there was an intended results from the manager in charge.
As for the people who constantly say that SOE "stole" their money, thats the same way of saying that watching a bad movie "stole" your money as well. Its the exact same thing, both are entertainment, and both require money and time in order to be enjoyed. Now oviously someone liked some of the movies that came out, just like there are still people that like SOE games. Just becaus some people dont like it, doesnt mean they are "evil" and are killing puppies while counting your stolen money. In fact most of this whole "SOE=evil" crap is nothing more than just people trying to ride the wave of resentment, most of which prolly havent experienced anything themselves, but they've read the horror stories and thus need to perpectuate them. If SOE was so pure evil as so many people are saying, why are they still posting in Vanguard related threads? Why do they feel they need to voice their concern if all their doing is telling how much crap it is, and therefore wont be playing?
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me".
Well, SOE has fooled and fooled and fooled again. I live with enough shame for the times SOE has made a fool of me and enough is enough.
Maybe there will be enough people who have yet to be made fools by SOE, or even those who enjoy being made fools, that the taint of SOE won't kill Vanguard outright. It's not my place to tell you not to play the fool, but there is also nothing wrong with those who have been fooled warning others.
If a gaming publisher can be "Evil", it is SOE. Don't feed the Beast , or it will never learn good manners.
Originally posted by HiGHPLaiNS Originally posted by beautyisin Originally posted by HiGHPLaiNS wow, never saw many posts deleted in a topic LOL As I stated earlier, a very contraversal game now with soe's involvement. But people will still play it if they like it. Thats just the way it goes. But (imo), it wont be a grand slam in mmo industry since not everyone is looking to play it now with the recent news.
The recent news will have little effect on the popularity of the game, i think the views of a vocal minority are being overplayed, the game's success rests on it's quality and content.
Doesnt matter what I think, the seed has been planted. Nothing good came out of this situtation. And the facts wont change.
i agree you saw vanguard fall from #1 on the unreleased MMO games list .. to like #40
and theres no way it will get back to #1 .. and this site is a big deal .. its one if not the first site you will get from any major search engine when you plug in "MMORPG"
and really you didnt see this happen with gods and heros ... mainly because gods and heros wasnt banking on SWG refugees and eq players dissatisfied with SOE .. but more importantly .. the game is harder to knock down ... it just looks phenomenal
but with vanguard you had a lot of people from SOE games who didnt have a very good experience and dont want to use another soe product again or at least for a very long while and were baking on vanguard .. they were willing to overlook any problems in beta because they just trusted sigil .. but when soe was brought in a lot of that trust evaporated ...
so the game, being left to stand on its own merits lost a lot ( but not all. there are definitely still some avid fans ) of its support ... with the loss of trust, people werent able to absorb as much bad news from beta testers .. and the tide of gamers are going elswhere
but i think this backlash wasnt only because of SOE, another part to it was the beta testers leaking info and violating the NDA, and it so happened a lot of these beta testers had negative opinions of the game ...
and thats why i think companies should be more careful about choosing beta testers ... a person will kiss butt in a forum just to get to play a game for free, while kissing butt in another developing game forum and when the beta for said game is done just move on to the next free game ... not really having any loyalty ..
on the plus side the fans and would be subscribers get to know facts and opinions of the game when a trial isnt available, instead of having to buy and subscribe a month to see if they like it
you look at a thread on the main forums page .. ( THE THREE BEST UPCOMING MMO's IN MY OPINION) which i started .. and i didnt say one word about soe or vanguard in my OP ... and i saw vanguard listed maybe three times .. compared to dozens of times with other games ... i think if SOE didnt get involved and the beta guys didnt start talking trash .. youd see vanguard with a LOT more picks in that thread ..
Comments
People sure do like to ruin other people's fun, don't they? What does everyone see wrong with VSOH? It seems like most the argument is based around SOE and how they screw games up. Prove to me they screwed Vanguard up!!!! You can't? Why? Because the games not out?
I honestly hope this is a niche game. Niche games have the best communities. Either way, SOE or Microsoft, I'm going to get this game. This game is going to rock.
This is how I view games these days in the MMORPG world. You either have Mainstream games or Niche games.
Mainstream game are more of your Quantity over Quality. You try to serve to many people out there as you can and you do, but you don't hold a good community (World of Warcraft, Guild Wars, Everquest 2, possibly WAR and possibly AoC...they seem to be popular for the time being)
Niche games are more of your Quality over quantity. Sure, some people may not like these games, but they have a really nice Community and strong player base to them, these are your more common MMORPG. (Ultima Online, Everquest, Vanguard when it comes out, DAoC, Lineage 2, MxO, RF Online, SWG before it sucked..etc.)
As you see, people will complain about Niche games because they think they will fail. They think that if it's not mainstream then it will suck and not get any subscribers. To the naysayers of Vanguard. . .go to the VSOH official forum and look at how many people are registered and looking forward to the game releasing. Sure, it might not be WoW size, but it's big enough to keep the game going. I will never play a Mainstream MMO again, because I know the gameplay and quality of the game isn't going to give me what I want. The community will more than likely be bad and it will serve to the more general audience. Another way you can tell a game is too mainstream, when you see it on the AOL AIM startup screen almost once every week.
Look at it like this:
Greenday. I used to love this band way back in the day when they had dookie and so on. Since their last albumn released, I can't stand them anymore. And it's not because I hear them on the radio (I don't listen to the radio) it's because I think the sound has changed, it's too poppy for my taste anymore.
Same thing with MMO's now. We get people on here judging games by it's "Poppy" gameplay. If it's not like EQ2 or WoW or how WAR and AOC will be like, then it's not worth playing. To hell with that idea and to hell with people trying to draw me away from my Vanguard!
Total time played: 9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds
Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
Bielieve it or not, I can really understand how people will bash the game just becuase it is affiliated with SOE.
Okay Im going to be blunt here. SOE is a bunch of lying, canniving, snickering bunch of thieves. They stole my money, stole yours, stole other players' money. They lie lilke theres no tommorow. They treated us like crap. They practically made SWG's playerbase beta test their new concoction for the PS3. It was like live animal testing. Yes, I know the subscribers to SWG at this point are...err...not the brightest bulbs in the bunch by still paying those thieves, but they dont deserve this. SOE has lied about many things in the past and they may take over development of Vanguard in the future. Thats why everyone is so riled up. So I can understand why people now dont like this game.
But will it stop most of the newly introduced MMO playerbase from buying it? Of course not. SOE are masters of marketing and deception and they will definitly have this in stores backed up with postive reviews. BUT: this game will not survive. Like most people have said this is a niche game, and will only appeal to a smaller audience. Once people see that this game has restricted character custimization and boring grinding, they will leave. Only a small but fanatical percentage of players really enjoy clicking on a computer controlled monster on a screen over and over again for 5 hours at a time.
However, I do not agree with the above poster telling us that Mainstream games are of low quality. They are not. WoW is a of great quality, that is why it stays the most popular MMO to this date. I definitly think, after seeing the absolutely excellent trailer for WAR, it may just be the next "big game" indeed.
Sincerely,
Dr. Steelarm
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Sure, WoW is very popular and a very solid game. Of course, if being popular makes you the best, then probably the best car ever was the VW Beetle.
Punch Bug, Green.
Steelarm, please tell me why SOE is a bunch of lying, canniving, snickering bunch of thieves. Tell me in detail what they lied about. I want to know if your just saying what everyone else is saying or if you really know what SOE does.
Second off Steelleg, people don't play games just because of companies. I don't know where and what you got your DR degree in, but maybe you should go back to school to get it again. People play games because they enjoy it. Some people, believe it or not, are enjoying Star Wars Galaxies. Some people Playing WoW like it. Some people playing Matrix Online play it because they like it. I sure as hell do not play a game because of who's on the box. If the game's fun, then it's fun. The day I start playing games because of who is on the lable of the box is the day I lose my gamer identity.
Third off, Mr. Steelman. People who use bold letters and differnt colors only use it because they can't get any other way to get their point across and they feel that is necessary when in actuality it isn't. I, Steeldude, am a gamer because I enjoy game. You sir are not a gamer, because you play companies.
Total time played: 9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds
Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
Total time played: 9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds
Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
MAEEYE>>>
Steeldude, am a gamer because I enjoy game. You sir are not a gamer, because you play companies.
i have to disagree and i think you are just being nearsighted and shallow in your thinking ...
perhaps i would need many more lines of dialogue, and a lot more time to teach you everything i have come to learn with my time on this planet ... but i will try to summarize things for you ...
market sharks .. ALWAYS .. ALWAYS lead to lesser quality products .. and less availabity of alternatives. whether those be experiences, products, whatever ...
MICROSOFT, was able to shark its way into the OS market .. and now because of this you have a uniformic computer end user market extremely susceptible to viruses because there is only one foundation to develope them for .. you have price gouging ( windows xp has been out for over 6 years and still costs 200$ .. no alternatives worth a damn ( any of these beaitufl mmo's u see on this site run on windows)
you look at the video game console market and what happened to it as soon as sony and microsoft get involved .. you saw the death of sega, NEC pcengine ( turbografx 16) you saw the death of NEO GEO, and now your seeing the death of nintendo with only sony and M$ the two super powers going to be left ...
now that sony stands to have over 50% of the market share what are they going to do? set up PS3's with hard security root checks so that you wont even be able to play a rented game or a friends game in your PS3 .. and why can they do this? because theres no other system out there cept Xbox you can buy .. and microsoft will probably follow sony's lead ( they already have installed a root security kit in your windows as of this month through a windows update )
so here we have sony in the MMO market ... and what have they done for the GENRE AND MARKET SO FAR?
screwing paying customers over refusing to give them refunds ( refusing to give refunds for the TOOW expansions ... double charging people ( this is documented you can do your research or just ask people in here i was one of them and had to call my credit card company to investigate, and letting people's subscription run on long after they cancelled) ..
lying about expansions...( lying about what the TOOW expansion would provide and which classes it would support .. lying about the esitence of the NGE prior to the TOOW expansion as not to deter sales of the expansion)
price gouging ( they made SWG veterans the first people to sign up who supported the game for 3 years .. the REAL STAR WARS FANS ) pay a full $40 for the box ... buy the box over and over for alternative characters ... pay for each expansions seperately and then said the needed this to make a profiit ... now they not only sell star wars with the expansions in one set they sell it with 4 other games for $39 !!!!
and the list goes on and on .. I can get into MUCH MORE DETAIL .. and cite MANY MANY MORE EXAMPLES ... but all you have to do is do a search for this name or neurox1 and read my previous posts in that I have enlightened people hundreds of times ...to what sony has done with eq AND other games ...
now you ask " why do you buy a game accourding to the company publishing/developing it" or " why do you play companies"
THATS WHY .. because we arent shallow thinkers .. we arent narrow minded or short sighted ... people like me SEE the future of the MMO market and genre if you let companies like SOE bully themselves into a monopoly of the market .. or untill fewer and fewer companies are left untill its only a handful running everything and the strategies they employ to secure profit become standard ....
you think its any coincidence that sony will have its name on MORE MMORPG boxes this yea than any other company out there? perhaps on more boxes int he next two years than the rest of the other smaller companies put together?
use your brain ... but more importantly .. USE YOUR POWER AS A CONSUMER >> BEFORE YOU LOOSE YOUR LAST POWER AS A CONSUMER ... YOUR RIGHT TO CHOOSE ..
MAEEYE>>>
Steeldude, am a gamer because I enjoy game. You sir are not a gamer, because you play companies.
i have to disagree and i think you are just being nearsighted and shallow in your thinking ...
perhaps i would need many more lines of dialogue, and a lot more time to teach you everything i have come to learn with my time on this planet ... but i will try to summarize things for you ...
market sharks .. ALWAYS .. ALWAYS lead to lesser quality products .. and less availabity of alternatives. whether those be experiences, products, whatever ...
MICROSOFT, was able to shark its way into the OS market .. and now because of this you have a uniformic computer end user market extremely susceptible to viruses because there is only one foundation to develope them for .. you have price gouging ( windows xp has been out for over 6 years and still costs 200$ .. no alternatives worth a damn ( any of these beaitufl mmo's u see on this site run on windows)
you look at the video game console market and what happened to it as soon as sony and microsoft get involved .. you saw the death of sega, NEC pcengine ( turbografx 16) you saw the death of NEO GEO, and now your seeing the death of nintendo with only sony and M$ the two super powers going to be left ...
now that sony stands to have over 50% of the market share what are they going to do? set up PS3's with hard security root checks so that you wont even be able to play a rented game or a friends game in your PS3 .. and why can they do this? because theres no other system out there cept Xbox you can buy .. and microsoft will probably follow sony's lead ( they already have installed a root security kit in your windows as of this month through a windows update )
so here we have sony in the MMO market ... and what have they done for the GENRE AND MARKET SO FAR?
screwing paying customers over refusing to give them refunds ( refusing to give refunds for the TOOW expansions ... double charging people ( this is documented you can do your research or just ask people in here i was one of them and had to call my credit card company to investigate, and letting people's subscription run on long after they cancelled) ..
lying about expansions...( lying about what the TOOW expansion would provide and which classes it would support .. lying about the esitence of the NGE prior to the TOOW expansion as not to deter sales of the expansion)
price gouging ( they made SWG veterans the first people to sign up who supported the game for 3 years .. the REAL STAR WARS FANS ) pay a full $40 for the box ... buy the box over and over for alternative characters ... pay for each expansions seperately and then said the needed this to make a profiit ... now they not only sell star wars with the expansions in one set they sell it with 4 other games for $39 !!!!
and the list goes on and on .. I can get into MUCH MORE DETAIL .. and cite MANY MANY MORE EXAMPLES ... but all you have to do is do a search for this name or neurox1 and read my previous posts in that I have enlightened people hundreds of times ...to what sony has done with eq AND other games ...
now you ask " why do you buy a game accourding to the company publishing/developing it" or " why do you play companies"
THATS WHY .. because we arent shallow thinkers .. we arent narrow minded or short sighted ... people like me SEE the future of the MMO market and genre if you let companies like SOE bully themselves into a monopoly of the market .. or untill fewer and fewer companies are left untill its only a handful running everything and the strategies they employ to secure profit become standard ....
you think its any coincidence that sony will have its name on MORE MMORPG boxes this yea than any other company out there? perhaps on more boxes int he next two years than the rest of the other smaller companies put together?
use your brain ... but more importantly .. USE YOUR POWER AS A CONSUMER >> BEFORE YOU LOOSE YOUR LAST POWER AS A CONSUMER ... YOUR RIGHT TO CHOOSE ..
You might want to be careful about turning threads into "I hate SOE" threads again. You remember what happened last time.
"so here we have sony in the MMO market ... and what have they done for the GENRE AND MARKET SO FAR?"
EQ was the most popular MMO for years, and still continues on with over 250k subscribers. Seems like they did something called "Pioneering", by far the best PVE game made. UO being the best PVP.
And Sony created EQ. Sony created Verant. So they never "bought it out" like so many people seem to think.
Also we are CHOOSING. We CHOOSE to play games if they are FUN, if they arent FUN we won't play them. No matter who makes or publishes them. If Vanguard isn't FUN to me I won't play it. Funny you say everyone else is narrow-minded when YOU are the one who won't try a game because it says SOE.
Ya I think overall Vanguard had a very successful E3. They had good placement in the SOE booths and the announcement of the switch to Sony made people curious so it attacted attention.
I think that most reviewers were very impressed by the Sigil team and how excited and passionate they were about the game.
The only negative that came up a few times was the graphics were not up to par. This seems like something that can be easily improved. The backbone of the game, the world and story and how everything fits together, that seems very solid.
I'm wondering if SOE won't be able to lend some development staff on the sly perhaps to help Sigil finish up.
Who knows how it will pan out. I think the Sigil folks with all their passion might just be able to fend off the insidious parts of SOE's influence and produce the game they want to make. Maybe the good guys can win this round.
wow, never saw many posts deleted in a topic
LOL
As I stated earlier, a very contraversal game now with soe's involvement. But people will still play it if they like it. Thats just the way it goes. But (imo), it wont be a grand slam in mmo industry since not everyone is looking to play it now with the recent news.
I don't think it was ever gonna be a grand slam. Just a game that caters to more hardcore, classic EQ style people. That's why i'm interested in it, i don't want a game like WoW that's just so easy to do everything, so it appeals to even the most casual of players. I never get super hyped on a game so even if it ends up sucking huge there will be other very good games coming out.
Here is hoping.
EDIT: Odd my last post was deleted, it actually got this thread back on topic.
I don't think it was ever gonna be a grand slam. Just a game that caters to more hardcore, classic EQ style people. That's why i'm interested in it, i don't want a game like WoW that's just so easy to do everything, so it appeals to even the most casual of players. I never get super hyped on a game so even if it ends up sucking huge there will be other very good games coming out.
Here is hoping.
EDIT: Odd my last post was deleted, it actually got this thread back on topic.
Here's to Vanguard catering to the vets in this genre.
Total time played: 9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds
Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
Originally posted by MaeEye
Originally posted by Steelarm011
Once people see that this game has restricted character custimization and boring grinding, they will leave. Only a small but fanatical percentage of players really enjoy clicking on a computer controlled monster on a screen over and over again for 5 hours at a time.
However, I do not agree with the above poster telling us that Mainstream games are of low quality. They are not. WoW is a of great quality, that is why it stays the most popular MMO to this date. I definitly think, after seeing the absolutely excellent trailer for WAR, it may just be the next "big game" indeed.
Sincerely,
Dr. Steelarm
Let me tell you something else. Since when did WoW become a game where you don't click around to attack and move? Since when did WoW NOT have a character customization restriction. Have you not seen Vanguard's character customization? Obviously you should do some research before you judge something doc. Since when did WAR or WoW NOT become a game where you don't have to grind for 5 hours staight. You sir, are a fucking moron.
Whoa! I honestly didnt expect this harsh of a response included with bits of flaming in it - in fact, I posted in other more controversial topics and I didnt get any flames in it.
First of all, to address the SOE issue. As in an above poster's reponse of listing different things that SOE has lied about - yes I have first hand expierience of the double charging of my credit card - they actually charged me when I unsubsribed from the game for an extra month. But thats just one miniscule event. Expansions were lied about, classes, proffessions etc. The box selling is outrageous, selling expansions for an individual price and then selling a "Gold Pack" including all expansions for 1 nice price. But the bottom of the line is, is that they have done so much we have lost count. To be honest I dont follow SOE all that much like other ex SWG players, so I dont know exact dates - I left earlier and quite frankly I want nothing to do with SOE in general. I wont spend time researching on giving you exact dates, exact events becuase...well quite frankly your not worth my time. But you can go type in their name on google and look on previous posts on different forums and see what Im talking about. I try to keep a broad scope on all games - so I know a little stuff about everything.
There is also the fact that SOE made their SWG playerbase practically beta test their new game for the PS3, while paying SOE their cash. But you missed that apparently.
Second of all, I never said that players play games because of companies. Your putting words where I never said them. I totally agree with you that people play games because they like it. And good for them, whatever floats their boat. However what Im saying is that people should use caution when seeing a certain publisher's name on the box. Have respect for yourself and your fellow gamers. Remember how they treat you. You sir seem to be taking the side of the companies, when you say that your taking the side of the gamer. Remember what SOE did. Have some self respect.
By the way, I got my doctor degree as a nickname from a bunch of friends. Ever since getting into MMO's since DAOC, they always went to me for advice on games. Currently their playing Asheron's Call and they are having a blast.
Thirdly, I use big bold letters to show my utter contempt for a gaming company that has disrespected fellow gamers and friends. I dont think thats a crime. By the way sir, I think you have our roles switched.
Now to adress your second post -
Again your putting words in my mouth. I never said WoW didnt have all the aspects Vanguard is going to have. WoW indeed DOES have long grinding, and restricted character custimization, thats why I left. if you would re read my post, I said WoW is of great quality, and indeed it is. Thats why it kept so many players. I know I may sound like I contradict myself when I said -
"Once people see that this game has restricted character custimization and boring grinding, they will leave. Only a small but fanatical percentage of players really enjoy clicking on a computer controlled monster on a screen over and over again for 5 hours at a time. "
However the players Im talking about are the players that are expierienced gamers that have played multiple MMO's and know what they like. New players to MMO's that are in WoW really dont know what they like becuase they havent played anything else. And thats the sad part. Cause theres other more exciting games out there, in my opinion, that dont have these types of features.
By the way, I'd really refrain from cursing and flaming me in your next post. Cause this last one made you look like an idiot.
Sincerely,
Dr. Steelarm
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
I, for once, have had no problem with SOE. hence, I did not play SWG or MxO, but I have played EQ and EQ2, both very fine games. So to see someone just play a game because of a company is totally obsurd, unless you got a good reason. Second off, they are just publishing the game, barely that. They are CO publishers. Sigil has first right to it before SOE does. To say that "SOE WILL take over Sigil and buy them out" is just immature and very fanboi like (not saying you said this Steelarm, just saying this because alot of people do). No one has no idea what will happen, it's like most of the SOE haters think gypsy's and can see into the future.
Sorry I got off a bit and flamed the hell outta you, it just makes me upset and mad when someone comes in a VANGUARD forum and tries to tell us why we shouldn't play a game. You see this crap happen in WoW alot and it just bugs me. Sure, I don't like WoW, but what gives me the right to go in there and say that Blizzard are screw heads and you shouldn't play thier game?
This isn't SOE's game, this is Sigils game.
I appreciate that you're a vet of the genre. it seems like we have most the problems with the newer breed of MMOers (I'm from the UO era, 2000).
We got off on the wrong foot, Steelarm, me and you. Lets get back on it, I don't like to make enemies. I just want you to see it our way.
Another thing. . .many companies out there make mistakes. MANY! Dell for once, they sell computers that can be defective, they have horrible customer service, but to be honest, if you do get a nice computer, it works wonderful (like mines, I love my dell).
Lets see. EA. Ok, I hate EA more than anyone hates SOE, because of what EA did to Ultima Online. But I still buy EA games and I don't go around to EA forums and bash everyone there because they play EA games. SOE, like EA, make som decent games. I think EQ2 is a very well rounded game as the same with EQ. EA has some good games, like Battlefield and the burnout series.
Total time played: 9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds
Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
Well now thats more like it!
I think you are interpreting some parts of my posts wrong. I never really said to all out never buy a game SOE endorses. I said I can understand why people dont want to buy the game specifically becuase of SOE backing them. Given their past history I can understand why. There is a reason why so many people hate SOE. Me personally? Well actually Ive decided to take some time off from MMO gaming and just post on these forums a bit on the guise of Steelarm, after spending long times in front of the comp I needed to get a life. Would I buy a game from SOE? In Vanguard's situation I would actually try it, becuase Sigil has full control on it...currently, but Vanguard isnt the game for me. Right now Im just waiting for the next really really fun, great, Grind-Lite-character freedomm-PvP driven MMO to come out and my hopes are still kinda down
But you can go in the forums if you want to and call them screwheads :P sure this is a forum it sparks debate i think its healthy for the genre to get its boundaries right. I actually think MMO's are wonderful becuase they all encourage community and teamwork (and at the same time absolutely evil becuase they make you addicted).
We actually agree alot more than you think.
By the way, its good to hear theres another vet out there. My first game was AC and it was awsome. Played on Darktide. I beielive nothing can compare to the adrenaline rush you get when youre on a FFA PVP server with looting
Tried UO for a little, that game was good too. Too bad FFA PVP is dying out. I'll have to settle for some good ole RvR. 
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
I mind that SOE is has a hand in it but you guys should know buisness and I am sick of people who have as much knowledge as a elementary student always complaining about every single thing. Before you go off talking, you should at least put into consideration Sigils side and stop being babies about it. If you don't like the game stop replying to it and if you do like the game then stop being so aggressive to those who are not smart enough to get a grip on reality, buisness, and childlike emotions.
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Doesnt matter what I think, the seed has been planted. Nothing good came out of this situtation. And the facts wont change.
SoE's involvement has little to do with my main concern.
That it lack of PvP focus, has it looking like the next "WoW carebear PvP"
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RvR, well...if DAoC got it right with one game, I'm sure they can get it right with WAR. The only problem I have with WAR is that I fear the game will attract many of the WoW players to the table. Not that this is horrible, it's just that I would rather see a DAoC kind of community rather than another WoW community game. Get my drift?
having never tried AC, I know how good it is. A friend of mine used ot be addicted to it and played it all the time. But this was while I was playing UO. I couldn't play AC back in the day because my computer could barely hand UO, lol. I did, however, play AC2 and loved the game. I thought the art style of the game was awsome, loved the graphics. But the gameplay did get boring and just wasn't my thing.
I will agree with you though Steelarm, that this genre does lack the FFA PvP style games like we once knew. it seems like if you want those type of games, you will have to go in the past and play some of the older games. I just wish though that there would be a newer FFA PvP. Darkfall does bring it to the table, but I'm afraid not many people are attractive to the game for it to ever really make it. I will say though, that right now Lineage 2 is pretty fun. I'm kind of taking a break from the MMO world right now too (except a free L2 server), nothing really sparks my interest. . .so that's why I'm hoping Vanguard does it for me.
Total time played: 9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds
Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
So what does this say? Well for one, since Sigil is not SOE, SOE does not have direct input on who becomes in charge of Vanguard's creative direction. Therefore, many things that were disliked in SOE games have a great chance of not appearing in Sigil games unless there was an intended results from the manager in charge.
As for the people who constantly say that SOE "stole" their money, thats the same way of saying that watching a bad movie "stole" your money as well. Its the exact same thing, both are entertainment, and both require money and time in order to be enjoyed. Now oviously someone liked some of the movies that came out, just like there are still people that like SOE games. Just becaus some people dont like it, doesnt mean they are "evil" and are killing puppies while counting your stolen money. In fact most of this whole "SOE=evil" crap is nothing more than just people trying to ride the wave of resentment, most of which prolly havent experienced anything themselves, but they've read the horror stories and thus need to perpectuate them. If SOE was so pure evil as so many people are saying, why are they still posting in Vanguard related threads? Why do they feel they need to voice their concern if all their doing is telling how much crap it is, and therefore wont be playing?
Well, SOE has fooled and fooled and fooled again. I live with enough shame for the times SOE has made a fool of me and enough is enough.
Maybe there will be enough people who have yet to be made fools by SOE, or even those who enjoy being made fools, that the taint of SOE won't kill Vanguard outright. It's not my place to tell you not to play the fool, but there is also nothing wrong with those who have been fooled warning others.
If a gaming publisher can be "Evil", it is SOE. Don't feed the Beast
, or it will never learn good manners.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Doesnt matter what I think, the seed has been planted. Nothing good came out of this situtation. And the facts wont change.
i agree you saw vanguard fall from #1 on the unreleased MMO games list .. to like #40
and theres no way it will get back to #1 .. and this site is a big deal .. its one if not the first site you will get from any major search engine when you plug in "MMORPG"
and really you didnt see this happen with gods and heros ... mainly because gods and heros wasnt banking on SWG refugees and eq players dissatisfied with SOE .. but more importantly .. the game is harder to knock down ... it just looks phenomenal
but with vanguard you had a lot of people from SOE games who didnt have a very good experience and dont want to use another soe product again or at least for a very long while and were baking on vanguard .. they were willing to overlook any problems in beta because they just trusted sigil .. but when soe was brought in a lot of that trust evaporated ...
so the game, being left to stand on its own merits lost a lot ( but not all. there are definitely still some avid fans ) of its support ... with the loss of trust, people werent able to absorb as much bad news from beta testers .. and the tide of gamers are going elswhere
but i think this backlash wasnt only because of SOE, another part to it was the beta testers leaking info and violating the NDA, and it so happened a lot of these beta testers had negative opinions of the game ...
and thats why i think companies should be more careful about choosing beta testers ... a person will kiss butt in a forum just to get to play a game for free, while kissing butt in another developing game forum and when the beta for said game is done just move on to the next free game ... not really having any loyalty ..
on the plus side the fans and would be subscribers get to know facts and opinions of the game when a trial isnt available, instead of having to buy and subscribe a month to see if they like it
you look at a thread on the main forums page .. ( THE THREE BEST UPCOMING MMO's IN MY OPINION) which i started .. and i didnt say one word about soe or vanguard in my OP ... and i saw vanguard listed maybe three times .. compared to dozens of times with other games ... i think if SOE didnt get involved and the beta guys didnt start talking trash .. youd see vanguard with a LOT more picks in that thread ..