ya know..the first thing I thought when I saw the screenshots was "Damn EQ2 clone"
i stepped back. Listened to my own criticism, "do graphics make a game?" not really.
so the review gave contrast to EQ2 a bit further, past graphics. Ultimately, Im disappointed with it based soley on the feedback from E3.
I'm not considering it a clone. But what they are trying to achieve isnt too far past what we have with games like DAoC and EQ2.
To take it a step further, theyre not *gasp* implementing a viable PvP option in the game for anyone who likes PvP.
I cant call this a clone of any current MMO. There are a slew of things that are NOT implemented. Look down the promised racial choices and class choices and ask a beta tester whats available.
ask how much PvP has been tested or if they have seen any of the content tested in-game that was presented at e3
all i gotta say is ive beta tested a lot of MMO's and I know the majority of you who are reading this have.
when it gets to a certain phase.. its set for release and THAT...yes...that is what you are testing. you're not testing expansions.. you ARE testing what they want to relese.
done.
Somethigns you forgot, 95% of the game will be spent in combat or traveling to more combat or looking for combat.
Edit: Meant to quote the post near this one about how VG has stuff others don't currently ahve like houses and boats.
Originally posted by Pantastic Modica, Vanguard is clearly going to be about raiding in the sense that the guy making it has said quite clearly that if you want the best gear, you'll have to raid. Raiding may be only 20% (or 15% or whatever) of the content, but you will have to choose between either doing that content or having inferior gear to someone who does. That qualifies it as a raid game in my book.
/agree
No one wants to be a second class citizen because they dislike raiding.
This was also a major flaw in WoW, most liked the game until the end when it became raiding.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
I've never been much of a "raider". I played Everquest for a long time without ever going on raids for uber loot. I still managed to thoroughly enjoy the game.
I played WoW for a while and never went on raids. I have seen other characters with uber gear, and I was not jealous about it. I do my own thing, and even if I have inferior gear, I manage to have fun playing.
I guess I play mmorpgs for the immersion and social aspects, not to become the most uber player with the best stuff.
Nobody ever HAS to raid, unless you play to be the best and have the best equipment. Even then, some mmorpgs allow crafters to make the best equipment in the game, so that players can avoid the raids if they wish. Of course there will always be a rare, unique item as a reward for going on raids, but again, it comes down to whether you absolutely NEED to have that, or if you can manage to have fun making do with what you have.
I personally want there to be the opportunity to raid. I will go on a raid every now and then, just for the adventure and fun of it. But I never feel like I am forced to go.
I was a raider in EQ, it completely changed the experience of pickup groups. You got so used to guild groups that going with pickup groups who had massively underpar gear was quite a backwards experience-lLeaving many raiders choosing to group with their guilds or only grouping with the raiding guilds around something which I didn't like. Raiding had as far as I saw it negatively affected the grouping game. Though admittedly, in part this was due to the massive inflation of raid items in EQ. Vanguard as far as I understand should be different. You'll be able to get some of the best items outside of raiding and there won't be nowhere near as much difference between the two sets of people.
Originally posted by Pantastic Modica, Vanguard is clearly going to be about raiding in the sense that the guy making it has said quite clearly that if you want the best gear, you'll have to raid. Raiding may be only 20% (or 15% or whatever) of the content, but you will have to choose between either doing that content or having inferior gear to someone who does. That qualifies it as a raid game in my book.
I don't recall seeing that either, is there a link to that?
All I have seen is the group centric remarks. I know the posters here are all in an uproar over it being a raiding game. I'm sure they are getting it from somewhere.
Also, does the gear really matter? I rarely ever have top gear in any game. It usually doesn't make that much of a difference except to a l337 player. (IMHO, don't blast me) Sure it goives an edge, in some game more then others, but really what difference does it make? In DAoC I had top everything and it didn't mean squat to me. After that I was never all that impressed with "top gear". Its really not worth the time and aggrivation it takes to get it.
Isn't the gameplay experience more important? I mean do those slave driving raid guilds in WoW really have fun? I've been in one and I didn't think anyone was really having all that much fun after the 10th time doing the same raid. It was actually kind of annoying. Everytime I logged on all it was, "we need to do this crap raid and that crap raid," it got old real fast.
Originally posted by Tymora I've never been much of a "raider". I played Everquest for a long time without ever going on raids for uber loot. I still managed to thoroughly enjoy the game. I played WoW for a while and never went on raids. I have seen other characters with uber gear, and I was not jealous about it. I do my own thing, and even if I have inferior gear, I manage to have fun playing. I guess I play mmorpgs for the immersion and social aspects, not to become the most uber player with the best stuff. Nobody ever HAS to raid, unless you play to be the best and have the best equipment. Even then, some mmorpgs allow crafters to make the best equipment in the game, so that players can avoid the raids if they wish. Of course there will always be a rare, unique item as a reward for going on raids, but again, it comes down to whether you absolutely NEED to have that, or if you can manage to have fun making do with what you have. I personally want there to be the opportunity to raid. I will go on a raid every now and then, just for the adventure and fun of it. But I never feel like I am forced to go.
Nothing wrong with that, but if you want to be of any use in PvP in WoW you have to raid for your gear.
Originally posted by Rayx0r Originally posted by Elnator Reviewer is a moron who hasn't done his homework. Brad (And the rest of the Sigil team) have said all along that Vanguard was going back to the 'roots' of EQ... It's going to be very similar with *some* newer features but it's going back to the "hard core" version of EQ, not the easy-streat EQ2.
So V:SOH is going to be EQ1 revised with better graphics and tweaks in some areas. EQ2 is EQ1 made easy. Vanguard is EQ1 made NEW.
All the reviewer has said is, essentially, this: Brad and the team at Sigil are doing a phenomenal job of delivering exactly what they've promised.
Not saying I like that. I probably won't even play Vanguard. But criticizing a game for delivering exactly what it promises??? That's a new one.
but thats his point
he's not criticizing the game because they are delivering what they promised. he's saying basically what we already know is that theres nothing groundbreaking or inventive
Tell ya what, you go play a New game that tries all kinds of new things...
Me? I'm waiting for someone to get the rights to UO and make a shined up, modern version of the game with the same gameplay and rulesets.
I probably won't play Vanguard... I had 6 years of EQ... I really don't care for more But UO? I'd kill to play real UO (pre-trammel) again, in a modern interface with modern graphical and sound technology.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
All that said, and here's where I risk some wrath, the most powerful items will likely require skill, challenge, risk, and contiguous time commitments involving a lot of people. The reason is that by putting all of those challenges together, you get a bigger challenge. The additional commitment to stay on those extra hours, the organizational skills necessary to lead and organize a large group of people, etc. There's still something to be said about all of that, even though it will be the minority of content, as per what I've commented on in the past.
Is one, there's a lot more developer comments on it overall. It's clear that a set of the best gear will have some pieces from solo areas, some from group areas, and some from raid areas. They intersperse a bunch of 'guilt trip' comments about how you shouldn't really care about what other people have, and marketingspeak about how you'll be able to be close with alternate gear, but it's abundantly clear that in order to have the best gear you'll have to raid.
Also, does the gear really matter?
"Vanguard will be a very item acquisition-centric game... questing, crafting, and adventuring to obtain items that enhance your character will be key, as will honing your skills and abilities. Crafting will be quite item centric also. Tool quality will be as important in harvesting as weapon quality is in adventuring."
Isn't the gameplay experience more important? I mean do those slave driving raid guilds in WoW really have fun?
That's the whole point, the gameplay experience of raiding is something I never want to repeat. If the people who do join those 'slave driving raid guilds' are the first class citizens and I'm going to be perpetually making do with inferior stuff, I'm just not going to pay any money for the game.
Originally posted by Tymora Nobody ever HAS to raid, unless you play to be the best and have the best equipment.
Right, you don't HAVE to raid, unless you actually mind being a second-class citizen with inferior gear, abilities, etc. Nobody ever HAS to pay to have a second-rate character, and I won't pay one cent towards that nonsense again.
Of course there will always be a rare, unique item as a reward for going on raids, but again, it comes down to whether you absolutely NEED to have that, or if you can manage to have fun making do with what you have.
I NEED to have access to the same gear as other players without raiding, or the company can manage to make money without my $15/month. I will manage to have fun playing another game entirely, I consider the idea of paying money to have to 'make do' with second-rate gear to be simple absurd.
Originally posted by Pantastic That's the whole point, the gameplay experience of raiding is something I never want to repeat. If the people who do join those 'slave driving raid guilds' are the first class citizens and I'm going to be perpetually making do with inferior stuff, I'm just not going to pay any money for the game.
I NEED to have access to the same gear as other players without raiding, or the company can manage to make money without my $15/month. I will manage to have fun playing another game entirely, I consider the idea of paying money to have to 'make do' with second-rate gear to be simple absurd.
You're right on both these quotes. I said last week after SOE got involved I'd STILL be playing Vanguard but after seeing what E3 has given us I'm just not sure anymore. WAR and Conan are looking better and better by the day.
The problem is, is that everyone has the mentality of trying to be the best in the game. It isn't going to happen. I have NEVER, in my 7 years of playing MMO's, have gone on a raid. And did it bug me? Nope! The only thing that bugs me about WoW is that it's just a boring easy game. I'm sure if I enjoyed the game then at lvl 60 I would have no problem finding other things to do.
Vanguard is going to have little raiding in it. While I do plan to step into Raiding a bit in Vanguard, mainly because I want to try it out, I'm not going to want the best armor ever. I'm not planning to be a solo army. If you have a decent guild behind you with decent armor, your going to do decend in RP wars.
Plus, in Vanguard. . .some of the most powerful and awsome armor/weapons will be from Crafted items of other players. Get your facts right.
/played-mmorpgs
Total time played:9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
Originally posted by MaeEye The problem is, is that everyone has the mentality of trying to be the best in the game. It isn't going to happen.
The problem is, that developers have the mentality of decreeing that you can only hope to be the best in the game if you raid yet at the same time want my money in their pocket. It isn't going to happen.
The only thing that bugs me about WoW is that it's just a boring easy game.I'm sure if I enjoyed the game then at lvl 60 I would have no problem finding other things to do.
So to summarize, you brought WOW into the discussion as an example to show that although you haven't played the part of the game with raiding, you are sure that if you liked the part of the game with no raiding you'd enjoy the game at 60 when the raids start, even though a lot of people who liked the game up to 60 disliked it after 60?
Vanguard is going to have little raiding in it.
I'll take what the lead designer of the game has said about the game over what you say. Vanguard is going to have something like one fifth of its content as raiding content, and to get the best gear you'll have to do raids. Just read the quote I posted earlier where he talks about the best rewards coming from large groups spending large chunks of time and dealing with challenges like organizing a big group, that alone should tell you that the game is not going to have 'little' raiding. Or read the FAQ where they talk about how they're going to split up the game.
While I do plan to step into Raiding a bit in Vanguard, mainly because I want to try it out, I'm not going to want the best armor ever.
So what? It's great for you if you don't mind being second-rate and only ever having access to second-rate gear, but I don't choose games based on what you like, I base them on what I like. If you're satisifed with making do with scrappy, inferior gear, then hop to it, sounds like you're in their target market.
Get your facts right.
Please point out a single fact that I've gotten wrong; I see you either getting one fact wrong or using an odd definition of 'little' since the developers of vanguard have said that about 1/5 of the content will be raid content, I don't regard that as just a 'little'.
Never played WoW so I dont know how they implemented Raids so badly that people wont ever touch a game with another Raid monster.
I really enjoyed the raids I participated in when I played Lineage2. Incidentally, you didnt need to raid in L2 for gear, there is such a thing as player trading there...and in Vanguard too, although they have touched on the fact that the best rare items will be soul-bound to discourage the secondary market.
Anyway the premise is pretty simple...the best items will come from (in no particular order) -
1) Raiding
2) Crafting
3) Contiguous Quests
Now if you hate Raiding and by the way you also cant stand to craft or do quests, then for sure Vanguard is not going to be your cup of tea. But if either of the other 2 options appeal then its absurd to dismiss this game on account it will include Raid Monsters.
EDIT: To touch on the WoW raiding system again. I keep hearing people talking about raiding at 60; am I right in assuming that there are no Raid monsters at earlier levels? I know in Lineage they have a huge range of boss and raid monsters from levels 20 - 80, raiding isnt something just tagged onto the end of a game to keep customers paying. (not saying thats what WoW does, but it sure sounds like it).
Anyway, here is hoping those 'special monsters' in VSoH are more in keeping with the Lineage baddies.
Originally posted by KariTR Never played WoW so I dont know how they implemented Raids so badly that people wont ever touch a game with another Raid monster. I really enjoyed the raids I participated in when I played Lineage2. Incidentally, you didnt need to raid in L2 for gear, there is such a thing as player trading there...and in Vanguard too, although they have touched on the fact that the best rare items will be soul-bound to discourage the secondary market. Anyway the premise is pretty simple...the best items will come from (in no particular order) - 1) Raiding 2) Crafting 3) Contiguous Quests Now if you hate Raiding and by the way you also cant stand to craft or do quests, then for sure Vanguard is not going to be your cup of tea. But if either of the other 2 options appeal then its absurd to dismiss this game on account it will include Raid Monsters.
Originally posted by KariTR Anyway the premise is pretty simple...the best items will come from (in no particular order) - 1) Raiding 2) Crafting 3) Contiguous Quests Now if you hate Raiding and by the way you also cant stand to craft or do quests, then for sure Vanguard is not going to be your cup of tea. But if either of the other 2 options appeal then its absurd to dismiss this game on account it will include Raid Monsters.
I think it's pretty telling that in every discussion of raiding in Vanguard, the defenders of the game start playing tricks with the wording to try to fool people. Yes, it's true that the best items will come from a variety of sources (although the split the developers have said isn't the one you listed) - however, and this is the key point, when you make a set of the best items for your character, some of those items will only be availible from raiding. My complaint is not that "If you want to assemble the best set of gear, every item will be from raids" it's that "If you want to assemble the best set of gear, you cannot do it without items from raiding".
And just remember:"All that said, and here's where I risk some wrath, the most powerful items will likely require skill, challenge, risk, and contiguous time commitments involving a lot of people. The reason is that by putting all of those challenges together, you get a bigger challenge. The additional commitment to stay on those extra hours, the organizational skills necessary to lead and organize a large group of people, etc. There's still something to be said about all of that, even though it will be the minority of content, as per what I've commented on in the past."
Pantastic while I agree with your sentiments about raiding, ie I was not a fan either, I don't think its going to be as big an issue as you think. And to back up this, can I ask did you play early EQ? Raiding was always a part of EQ but it only got really bad with PoP. Back in Velious the items from raiding was better than grouping. PoP is the period I hate and this is where I am really hoping that Vanguard will be nothing like, with what has been said with raiding being only 20% of the game it sounds more like the early EQ than the crap PoP EQ.
Nah, I never played EQ1, what I heard from people who liked the game turned me off to it. You're thinking about it the wrong way if you're talking about how big of an issue it is; I am not concerned with exactly what % better raiders will be than non-raiders, but simply with the fact that they can get the best stuff and I can't. That's enough for me to write off the game right there, I'm just not interested in being forever 'making do' with second-rate stuff. I doubt that it will really be all that minor, once the developers have the idea that it's OK to 'encourage' people to raid it's very easy for them to add more and more encouragement, but even if it remained minor it's just not something I care to experience again.
While a number of people claim that they really enjoy raiding, I don't buy it. Raiding is such atrocious gameplay that virtually no one would raid if the raid loot was only as good as group/solo loot. If you really enjoy raiding so much, you should be begging them to make raid loot the same quality as other loot so that you don't have to mess with loot whores during your preferred gameplay.
Originally posted by nomadian Pantastic while I agree with your sentiments about raiding, ie I was not a fan either, I don't think its going to be as big an issue as you think. And to back up this, can I ask did you play early EQ? Raiding was always a part of EQ but it only got really bad with PoP. Back in Velious the items from raiding was better than grouping. PoP is the period I hate and this is where I am really hoping that Vanguard will be nothing like, with what has been said with raiding being only 20% of the game it sounds more like the early EQ than the crap PoP EQ.
This is not correct.
At Velious Era, a raider would get an item with 100 HPs and some other neat effect while a grouper might get 30 HPs on an item. (AoW loot, PoF godloot...etc...) Not to mention the Primal weapons and many other such items and the possibilities the devs left for a guild to screw the whole server. Opportunity taken by some of the harshest guilds.
At PoP, the ratio become 250 HPs vs 120 HPs...the ratio is less bad.
PS: Note, I take the best vs the best, some location didn't have 100 hps, but the grouping item where downscale accordinhly, so the ratio always remains the same. PoP was more casual friendly than Velious.
PPS: Pantastic is doing a wonderful job, I will not say anything but in approval and correct peoples trash informing you, this is done on purpose, also consider that most peoples claiming that they are not raiders are in fact raiders who play more than 1 account, so basically if they talk for account 2 or 3, they are telling the truth in their twisted minds. This information was verify plenty of times in the past...I was a raider, even if I never enjoy it...I have many raiding friends and I have access to 'insider raiding' information, in fact, if it is on an uber guild forum, I can read it.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Modica I don't know where most of you guys get this idea that the game is about raiding. The focus, the crux of the game is about group play, not raiding. If we were to separate it into percentages, it would probably come out something like 70% group play, 15% solo and raiding each. And that's not even counting the crafting system or the diplomacy systems that will come into play.
If I want to be the BEST grouper in the game, what should I do? (the fact I reach it or not is irrelevant, as I will be dreaming and trying...and enjoying the game)
Any answer that is not GROUPING is inadequate and will not see my subscribtion.
Having peoples who are not group worthy, that leave groups in the middle of a mission because their guild call them is already a pain, but if those persons are the ELITE of the grouping system, it ruins everything. The ELITE of the grouping system should at least be likely to show loyalty to their groups once they start something, not leave as soon as the guild call them.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by wjrasmussen I think you are right on this point. There is a burnout and it is not clear that people will pay to do this in another game...
Despite your sarcasm, you are prooving my point, against your wish. Peoples don't spend a LOT of time raiding. Check on WoW data, you will see that MOST are grouping/soloing...
Yet, when peoples QUIT the game, RAIDING take a very proeminent role as the main reason soo many players left. So, if less than 5% of the players currently online are raiding, but 70% of the players leaving state raiding among the reasons they left...why not remove raiding right away? Even in old EQ, the currently online players raiding was always a minority, no matter what Brad or Smed want you to believe.
And I am not even considering what the % would be if those who left because of raiding would still be playing and never left, you clearly see that 5% dropping under 1%. Raiding in it current form is appealing to a minority that are no better than gankers are to PvP.
Are you that bright? I was on you side, not sarcasm. Duh to you.
People don't like raiding for the most part. Most people are there to get the nice prizes since that is the way to get them. Imagine in WOW a 40th level major raid area for purples of that appropriate level. Who would go back week after week? Not many as they would be going to pursue gaining levels and getting higher level items from other places.
People raid because they don't have many options. So it looks as if lots of people like raiding, when that is pretty much all they have.
TO ME, those raiding areas are a scam. They are cheaper conent to create and they you make people play them over and over and over again to get those nice prizes. You set a timer to limit how often they can make the run, mean while you get their monthly $$$$.
First off, regarding this critic, what does it even really matter? He's just a guy who got some hands-on with the game. Either you trust him to have told you straight what it was like, or you don't give a flying rat's turd what he thinks. Discussing his credentials is stupid and trite. Either you appreciate that someone actually played the game and has an opinion, or you don't.
And if you didn't want opinions, negative or positive, I must beg you to consider why you are at MMORPG.COM in the first place.
Now that that's over with... Vanguard.
Okay. Here's the thing.
I don't give a flip about grinding, raiding, all that jazz. Let's just boil it down to the final, trimuphant factor:
Can I have fun playing this game without being forced to play it one specific way?
Now, some of you might be confused what that means. Allow me to clarify. I do not want to just raid. I do not want to just solo. Or just group.
I do not want to have to grind all the time for everything. I do not want a PVP system in which those who spend more time on the game have such a huge advantage over me that PVP isn't really any kind of option for me at all.
I do not want to take 6 months to get to end-game, and realize that the only thing left to do is find 100 hairless apes with keyboards to farm some place for another 6 months just to get a piece of gear I need to enjoy other parts of the game.
I want to solo, group, or raid when I choose to do any of these things, even and especially at end-game, and at all times have these choices be viable and entertaining ways of playing the game. I want a crafting system where if you can't raid, you can at least grind for equal time to obtain comparable gear, so that raiding is just a bit of a more-fun way to get nice stuff. I want PVP to throw any gear advantage clean out the window, and either you can do it with what you know, or you can't and that's all there is to it.
Player housing, mounts, all that garbage is just eye-candy. It distracts from the essential truth: the game is either fun to actually play (as in, you do stuff and stuff happens as a result), or it is not. It would be nice to have a house of my own, a mount to take me places faster, and stuff like that. But absolutely none of it has any real impact on the basic fact of whether or not the game actually plays worth a damn.
If that's all too much to ask for in Vanguard, or any other game, I can wait. I started with Yars' Revenge; I think I can wait a while longer for an MMO that actually delivers what I am willing to pay for.
At Velious Era, a raider would get an item with 100 HPs and someother neat effect while a grouper might get 30 HPs on an item. (AoW loot, PoF godloot...etc...) Not to mention the Primal weapons and many other such items and the possibilities the devs left for a guild to screw the whole server. Opportunity taken by some of the harshest guilds.
What I'm getting at is it can't have been much of an issue especially if Velious was cited by many players as the best expansion ever. If people were really bothered at this early stage surely there would have been more of a hoohaa. Most people seem to look at PoP as the hated expansion in terms of nonraider/raider divide.
Nah, I never played EQ1, what I heard from people who liked the game turned me off to it. You're thinking about it the wrong way if you're talking about how big of an issue it is; I am not concerned with exactly what % better raiders will be than non-raiders, but simply with the fact that they can get the best stuff and I can't. That's enough for me to write off the game right there, I'm just not interested in being forever 'making do' with second-rate stuff. I doubt that it will really be all that minor, once the developers have the idea that it's OK to 'encourage' people to raid it's very easy for them to add more and more encouragement, but even if it remained minor it's just not something I care to experience again.
Ah that surprises me. I know raiding wasn't very well received in WoW too but I thought this mainly because it negatively affected Pvp more than anything else.
In regards to the orginal issue I don't expect much from vanguard but I expect it to be better than WOW. Thats not a shot at WOW as I realise how successful its been however I do mean that like wow I expect it to run smoothly and feel really nice to begin with, have a great and easy to use interface and to do what has been done better and add a little extra and also like wow to offer very little to the hardcore MMORPGer but I don't expect it to be worthy of the hype even as far as the casual gamer is concerned I don't expect it to do for them what wow did(although it may be a case of nothing better available). Even the casual gamer gets bored of wow and Vanguard won't offer them enough extra to substain there interest for long in the wake of wow
Comments
Edit: Meant to quote the post near this one about how VG has stuff others don't currently ahve like houses and boats.
/agree
No one wants to be a second class citizen because they dislike raiding.
This was also a major flaw in WoW, most liked the game until the end when it became raiding.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
I've never been much of a "raider". I played Everquest for a long time without ever going on raids for uber loot. I still managed to thoroughly enjoy the game.
I played WoW for a while and never went on raids. I have seen other characters with uber gear, and I was not jealous about it. I do my own thing, and even if I have inferior gear, I manage to have fun playing.
I guess I play mmorpgs for the immersion and social aspects, not to become the most uber player with the best stuff.
Nobody ever HAS to raid, unless you play to be the best and have the best equipment. Even then, some mmorpgs allow crafters to make the best equipment in the game, so that players can avoid the raids if they wish. Of course there will always be a rare, unique item as a reward for going on raids, but again, it comes down to whether you absolutely NEED to have that, or if you can manage to have fun making do with what you have.
I personally want there to be the opportunity to raid. I will go on a raid every now and then, just for the adventure and fun of it. But I never feel like I am forced to go.
I don't recall seeing that either, is there a link to that?
All I have seen is the group centric remarks. I know the posters here are all in an uproar over it being a raiding game. I'm sure they are getting it from somewhere.
Also, does the gear really matter? I rarely ever have top gear in any game. It usually doesn't make that much of a difference except to a l337 player. (IMHO, don't blast me) Sure it goives an edge, in some game more then others, but really what difference does it make? In DAoC I had top everything and it didn't mean squat to me. After that I was never all that impressed with "top gear". Its really not worth the time and aggrivation it takes to get it.
Isn't the gameplay experience more important? I mean do those slave driving raid guilds in WoW really have fun? I've been in one and I didn't think anyone was really having all that much fun after the 10th time doing the same raid. It was actually kind of annoying. Everytime I logged on all it was, "we need to do this crap raid and that crap raid," it got old real fast.
By the way here is a funny raid link from WoW
http://www.partingvisions.com/onywipe/onyxiawipe.swf
You think they are a bit on the serious side?
but thats his point
he's not criticizing the game because they are delivering what they promised. he's saying basically what we already know is that theres nothing groundbreaking or inventive
Tell ya what, you go play a New game that tries all kinds of new things...
Me? I'm waiting for someone to get the rights to UO and make a shined up, modern version of the game with the same gameplay and rulesets.
I probably won't play Vanguard... I had 6 years of EQ... I really don't care for more
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=586
Is one, there's a lot more developer comments on it overall. It's clear that a set of the best gear will have some pieces from solo areas, some from group areas, and some from raid areas. They intersperse a bunch of 'guilt trip' comments about how you shouldn't really care about what other people have, and marketingspeak about how you'll be able to be close with alternate gear, but it's abundantly clear that in order to have the best gear you'll have to raid.
"Vanguard will be a very item acquisition-centric game... questing, crafting, and adventuring to obtain items that enhance your character will be key, as will honing your skills and abilities. Crafting will be quite item centric also. Tool quality will be as important in harvesting as weapon quality is in adventuring."
That's the whole point, the gameplay experience of raiding is something I never want to repeat. If the people who do join those 'slave driving raid guilds' are the first class citizens and I'm going to be perpetually making do with inferior stuff, I'm just not going to pay any money for the game.
Right, you don't HAVE to raid, unless you actually mind being a second-class citizen with inferior gear, abilities, etc. Nobody ever HAS to pay to have a second-rate character, and I won't pay one cent towards that nonsense again.
I NEED to have access to the same gear as other players without raiding, or the company can manage to make money without my $15/month. I will manage to have fun playing another game entirely, I consider the idea of paying money to have to 'make do' with second-rate gear to be simple absurd.
Vanguard is going to have little raiding in it. While I do plan to step into Raiding a bit in Vanguard, mainly because I want to try it out, I'm not going to want the best armor ever. I'm not planning to be a solo army. If you have a decent guild behind you with decent armor, your going to do decend in RP wars.
Plus, in Vanguard. . .some of the most powerful and awsome armor/weapons will be from Crafted items of other players. Get your facts right.
Total time played: 9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds
Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
The problem is, that developers have the mentality of decreeing that you can only hope to be the best in the game if you raid yet at the same time want my money in their pocket. It isn't going to happen.
So to summarize, you brought WOW into the discussion as an example to show that although you haven't played the part of the game with raiding, you are sure that if you liked the part of the game with no raiding you'd enjoy the game at 60 when the raids start, even though a lot of people who liked the game up to 60 disliked it after 60?
I'll take what the lead designer of the game has said about the game over what you say. Vanguard is going to have something like one fifth of its content as raiding content, and to get the best gear you'll have to do raids. Just read the quote I posted earlier where he talks about the best rewards coming from large groups spending large chunks of time and dealing with challenges like organizing a big group, that alone should tell you that the game is not going to have 'little' raiding. Or read the FAQ where they talk about how they're going to split up the game.
So what? It's great for you if you don't mind being second-rate and only ever having access to second-rate gear, but I don't choose games based on what you like, I base them on what I like. If you're satisifed with making do with scrappy, inferior gear, then hop to it, sounds like you're in their target market.
Please point out a single fact that I've gotten wrong; I see you either getting one fact wrong or using an odd definition of 'little' since the developers of vanguard have said that about 1/5 of the content will be raid content, I don't regard that as just a 'little'.
Never played WoW so I dont know how they implemented Raids so badly that people wont ever touch a game with another Raid monster.
I really enjoyed the raids I participated in when I played Lineage2. Incidentally, you didnt need to raid in L2 for gear, there is such a thing as player trading there...and in Vanguard too, although they have touched on the fact that the best rare items will be soul-bound to discourage the secondary market.
Anyway the premise is pretty simple...the best items will come from (in no particular order) -
1) Raiding
2) Crafting
3) Contiguous Quests
Now if you hate Raiding and by the way you also cant stand to craft or do quests, then for sure Vanguard is not going to be your cup of tea. But if either of the other 2 options appeal then its absurd to dismiss this game on account it will include Raid Monsters.
EDIT: To touch on the WoW raiding system again. I keep hearing people talking about raiding at 60; am I right in assuming that there are no Raid monsters at earlier levels? I know in Lineage they have a huge range of boss and raid monsters from levels 20 - 80, raiding isnt something just tagged onto the end of a game to keep customers paying. (not saying thats what WoW does, but it sure sounds like it).
Anyway, here is hoping those 'special monsters' in VSoH are more in keeping with the Lineage baddies.
I think it's pretty telling that in every discussion of raiding in Vanguard, the defenders of the game start playing tricks with the wording to try to fool people. Yes, it's true that the best items will come from a variety of sources (although the split the developers have said isn't the one you listed) - however, and this is the key point, when you make a set of the best items for your character, some of those items will only be availible from raiding. My complaint is not that "If you want to assemble the best set of gear, every item will be from raids" it's that "If you want to assemble the best set of gear, you cannot do it without items from raiding".
And just remember:"All that said, and here's where I risk some wrath, the most powerful items will likely require skill, challenge, risk, and contiguous time commitments involving a lot of people. The reason is that by putting all of those challenges together, you get a bigger challenge. The additional commitment to stay on those extra hours, the organizational skills necessary to lead and organize a large group of people, etc. There's still something to be said about all of that, even though it will be the minority of content, as per what I've commented on in the past."
Nah, I never played EQ1, what I heard from people who liked the game turned me off to it. You're thinking about it the wrong way if you're talking about how big of an issue it is; I am not concerned with exactly what % better raiders will be than non-raiders, but simply with the fact that they can get the best stuff and I can't. That's enough for me to write off the game right there, I'm just not interested in being forever 'making do' with second-rate stuff. I doubt that it will really be all that minor, once the developers have the idea that it's OK to 'encourage' people to raid it's very easy for them to add more and more encouragement, but even if it remained minor it's just not something I care to experience again.
While a number of people claim that they really enjoy raiding, I don't buy it. Raiding is such atrocious gameplay that virtually no one would raid if the raid loot was only as good as group/solo loot. If you really enjoy raiding so much, you should be begging them to make raid loot the same quality as other loot so that you don't have to mess with loot whores during your preferred gameplay.
This is not correct.
At Velious Era, a raider would get an item with 100 HPs and some other neat effect while a grouper might get 30 HPs on an item. (AoW loot, PoF godloot...etc...) Not to mention the Primal weapons and many other such items and the possibilities the devs left for a guild to screw the whole server. Opportunity taken by some of the harshest guilds.
At PoP, the ratio become 250 HPs vs 120 HPs...the ratio is less bad.
PS: Note, I take the best vs the best, some location didn't have 100 hps, but the grouping item where downscale accordinhly, so the ratio always remains the same. PoP was more casual friendly than Velious.
PPS: Pantastic is doing a wonderful job, I will not say anything but
in approval and correct peoples trash informing you, this is done on purpose, also consider that most peoples claiming that they are not raiders are in fact raiders who play more than 1 account, so basically if they talk for account 2 or 3, they are telling the truth in their twisted minds. This information was verify plenty of times in the past...I was a raider, even if I never enjoy it...I have many raiding friends and I have access to 'insider raiding' information, in fact, if it is on an uber guild forum, I can read it.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
If I want to be the BEST grouper in the game, what should I do? (the fact I reach it or not is irrelevant, as I will be dreaming and trying...and enjoying the game)
Any answer that is not GROUPING is inadequate and will not see my subscribtion.
Having peoples who are not group worthy, that leave groups in the middle of a mission because their guild call them is already a pain, but if those persons are the ELITE of the grouping system, it ruins everything. The ELITE of the grouping system should at least be likely to show loyalty to their groups once they start something, not leave as soon as the guild call them.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Despite your sarcasm, you are prooving my point, against your wish. Peoples don't spend a LOT of time raiding. Check on WoW data, you will see that MOST are grouping/soloing...
Yet, when peoples QUIT the game, RAIDING take a very proeminent role as the main reason soo many players left. So, if less than 5% of the players currently online are raiding, but 70% of the players leaving state raiding among the reasons they left...why not remove raiding right away? Even in old EQ, the currently online players raiding was always a minority, no matter what Brad or Smed want you to believe.
And I am not even considering what the % would be if those who left because of raiding would still be playing and never left, you clearly see that 5% dropping under 1%. Raiding in it current form is appealing to a minority that are no better than gankers are to PvP.
Are you that bright? I was on you side, not sarcasm. Duh to you.
People don't like raiding for the most part. Most people are there to get the nice prizes since that is the way to get them. Imagine in WOW a 40th level major raid area for purples of that appropriate level. Who would go back week after week? Not many as they would be going to pursue gaining levels and getting higher level items from other places.
People raid because they don't have many options. So it looks as if lots of people like raiding, when that is pretty much all they have.
TO ME, those raiding areas are a scam. They are cheaper conent to create and they you make people play them over and over and over again to get those nice prizes. You set a timer to limit how often they can make the run, mean while you get their monthly $$$$.
First off, regarding this critic, what does it even really matter? He's just a guy who got some hands-on with the game. Either you trust him to have told you straight what it was like, or you don't give a flying rat's turd what he thinks. Discussing his credentials is stupid and trite. Either you appreciate that someone actually played the game and has an opinion, or you don't.
And if you didn't want opinions, negative or positive, I must beg you to consider why you are at MMORPG.COM in the first place.
Now that that's over with... Vanguard.
Okay. Here's the thing.
I don't give a flip about grinding, raiding, all that jazz. Let's just boil it down to the final, trimuphant factor:
Can I have fun playing this game without being forced to play it one specific way?
Now, some of you might be confused what that means. Allow me to clarify. I do not want to just raid. I do not want to just solo. Or just group.
I do not want to have to grind all the time for everything. I do not want a PVP system in which those who spend more time on the game have such a huge advantage over me that PVP isn't really any kind of option for me at all.
I do not want to take 6 months to get to end-game, and realize that the only thing left to do is find 100 hairless apes with keyboards to farm some place for another 6 months just to get a piece of gear I need to enjoy other parts of the game.
I want to solo, group, or raid when I choose to do any of these things, even and especially at end-game, and at all times have these choices be viable and entertaining ways of playing the game. I want a crafting system where if you can't raid, you can at least grind for equal time to obtain comparable gear, so that raiding is just a bit of a more-fun way to get nice stuff. I want PVP to throw any gear advantage clean out the window, and either you can do it with what you know, or you can't and that's all there is to it.
Player housing, mounts, all that garbage is just eye-candy. It distracts from the essential truth: the game is either fun to actually play (as in, you do stuff and stuff happens as a result), or it is not. It would be nice to have a house of my own, a mount to take me places faster, and stuff like that. But absolutely none of it has any real impact on the basic fact of whether or not the game actually plays worth a damn.
If that's all too much to ask for in Vanguard, or any other game, I can wait. I started with Yars' Revenge; I think I can wait a while longer for an MMO that actually delivers what I am willing to pay for.
Ah that surprises me. I know raiding wasn't very well received in WoW too but I thought this mainly because it negatively affected Pvp more than anything else.
Edit.Grr this damn editor.
In regards to the orginal issue I don't expect much from vanguard but I
expect it to be better than WOW. Thats not a shot at WOW as I realise
how successful its been however I do mean that like wow I expect it to
run smoothly and feel really nice to begin with, have a great and easy
to use interface and to do what has been done better and add a little
extra and also like wow to offer very little to the hardcore MMORPGer but I don't expect it to be worthy of the hype even as far as the casual gamer is concerned I don't expect it to do for them what wow did(although it may be a case of nothing better available). Even the casual gamer gets bored of wow and Vanguard won't offer them enough extra to substain there interest for long in the wake of wow