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Hooray for Conceptual PvP!
Carbide
Member Posts: 136
in Tabula Rasa
Took me from writting TR off to being increasingly excited about it! PvP in a game is an absolute must for me, I'm so happy they're actually conceptualizing it - finally something to quench the thurst swg left me.
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SWG - 1st Gen MBH (Closed)
EVE (Closed)
WoW (61 Orc Hunter - Blackwing Lair)
GuildWars (Boring...)
Comments
oh, its more than conceptual.... they intend to have PvP....
it just wont be a part of the "story" of the game.... it will fall more into the realm of "Training grounds" or "Arenas"
Im hoping that it will be similar (in some respects) to the way PvP zones are handled in COx.... that a certain base level is required for certain "types of live fire training areas"... and in those areas everyone is of a compairable level... you pick a side (red team or blue team ect) and are thrust into a little PvP "king of the arena" style contest.
that might be a little too general... but Im hoping for something easily accessable like that...
I wonder if they'll have a craftable Items... "PvP Ruffies"
go out, have a nice drink with friends, meet the cute commando from that other unit... then the next thing you know, POW! you wake up PvP dead by some guy you met...
....didnt even get his name.
PvP and PvE are two different aspects of a game... You can be all the uber leet mumbo jumbo PvP guy if you want, others want to be uber leet mumbo jumbo PvE players... Some will master both aspects of the game, you sound like someone who wants to excell in PvP, but suck in PvE 'cause it doesnt take skills'...
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration - courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and, above all, love of the truth." - Henry Mencken
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
"And what would you do with a brain if you had one?" - Wizard of Oz
Well considering that this game is supposed to be about fighting an Alien speices and you are not able to play it, what is the point of PvP? Not saying not to have it, just how does this fit into the game story. If Lord British does this right, this is not going to be a simple pull mob, wait for respawn game ala WoW, EQ, etc....
Ladrac
thats funny.... Ive always felt just the opposite.
Players cant be trusted. no matter how "selective" you are, there will ALWAYS be bad eggs. Always be those you've selected who have no reguard for immersion and "fun" and only take enjoyment from the sadism of crushing weak, inexperenced, or casual players.
The ammount of time and effort it would take to choose, moderate, and mitigate those "elite" members of the community will tie up valuable resources that should be used to make a better game, and to add content for the majority of players.
Building complicated gameplay mechanics for sole use of an infinitesimally narrow minority just is not a good use of time and resources.
now excuse me while i turn on discovery and watch all the wars against the aliens we've had through history, hehe
:P
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration - courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and, above all, love of the truth." - Henry Mencken
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
"And what would you do with a brain if you had one?" - Wizard of Oz
now excuse me while i turn on discovery and watch all the wars against the aliens we've had through history, hehe
:P
The last time I went outside I didnt see a bunch of people run around kill everyone also.
I am not saying not to have PvP, just make it part of the storyline and the mechanics conform to that storyline. The last time I check this still was a MMORPG. Remember that RPG stands for role play game. Now if this was a MMOFPS I wouldnt care.
These 'arenas' or otherwise instanced areas where games only allow PvP makes the entire game bad for people who want to PvP all day long and consider it to be the only reason to play MMO's. Devs ought to focus on creating great PvP AND PvE but the trend nowadays is to create a PvE game to lure the wads of cash from all the gazillions of casual gamers out there that 'play a few hours a week'. Probably a good business move since many other PvE games have made a bundle in the past (Everquest, World of Warcraft, etc) but it's still sad and boring.
Nothing beats the sense of competition between real players, mindnumbing PvE doesn't require skill in the sense that a NPC can never come up with the tricks and strategies that a real player can. PvE also gets old the second you have killed that mob that you hadn't seen before and then devs have spiralled down into the 'we need to create more endgame content' which results in more items, more mobs and bosses. All they need to do is to create a great PvP system from the get-go and you get an abundance of endgame content.
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These 'arenas' or otherwise instanced areas where games only allow PvP makes the entire game bad for people who want to PvP all day long and consider it to be the only reason to play MMO's. Devs ought to focus on creating great PvP AND PvE but the trend nowadays is to create a PvE game to lure the wads of cash from all the gazillions of casual gamers out there that 'play a few hours a week'. Probably a good business move since many other PvE games have made a bundle in the past (Everquest, World of Warcraft, etc) but it's still sad and boring.
Nothing beats the sense of competition between real players, mindnumbing PvE doesn't require skill in the sense that a NPC can never come up with the tricks and strategies that a real player can. PvE also gets old the second you have killed that mob that you hadn't seen before and then devs have spiralled down into the 'we need to create more endgame content' which results in more items, more mobs and bosses. All they need to do is to create a great PvP system from the get-go and you get an abundance of endgame content.
If you're making a game that based on pvp combat, such as Warhammer: Age of Reckoning, that makes alot of sense. But Tabula Rasa seems to be focusing alot more on the RPG kind of game, you know the explore/discover/evolve kind of team gameplay instead of the highpaced conquer/destroy/humiliate kind of game.
It's extremly difficult to unite those two concepts into a roleplaying game, especially since everyone and his mother has his/her own ideals and ideas on how it should be done. But for those who arent hardcore pvp players consentual pvp is great. It's all a matter of which part of the game you're catering towards, PvE or PvP...
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration - courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and, above all, love of the truth." - Henry Mencken
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
"And what would you do with a brain if you had one?" - Wizard of Oz
PvP is concentual because there has ALWAYS been a large number of light gamers who can't keep up with the twinking, ganking and whathave you, or just don't like to PvP. This is pretty common, "carebears" have always existed. PvP should be consentual because it leads to more head on fights, more prepeared fights and fights with other people of a similar mindset and comprable power.
To sauna:
I love PvP but I understand why some don't. (I hated PvP in anarchy online... poor balance and not much excitment) I think the best thing here would be to impliment a PvP server where PvP is always happening except in safezones. (You can imagine what would happen if towns were all PvP all the time) or maybe an option that designates someone as a "PvP Person" their name would be a differant color and they could be attacked at any time (or attack other PvP players at any time) The biggest problem would obviously be the effect of either of these on the (very cool) battle ground style PvM. Humans would never win with all that in-fighting.
therefor, I am fine with separate PvP battlegrounds, I never liked to PvP with unprepared people anyway "ganking" carebears is pretty boring to me. I will see you on the battlefields! (and maybe we can fight then! xD)
consensual pvp....
ghey
The only way consensual pvp wont be reatarded is if pvp is like it is in DAOC. When you want to lvl you lvl and there is no fear of getting ganked-- but if you go to bgs or RvR you know what your there for. If there is only arena pvp..then count me out thats completely lame.
Either FFA anytime anywhere---
or
RvR style
Consensual pvp - fantastic - away with those nasty gankers.
Maybe if we ask nicely there will be no friendly fire incidents either
perhaps, then... It might be better to have the dev team working on updates (patches, expansions, ect) should be looking at player tactics, and then encorporating counteractions into newer versions of enemy AI...
... AI escalation, if you will.
Looks cool TR but with no open pvp im not gonne play it to much carebear.
But if open pvp realm should open im in becouse game looks awsome.
So waiting for Darkfall if TR only have some arenas pitty
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TR was & is not about pvp, it has always been about PvE (was the plan even when TR was an asian influenced mmorpg). The pvp that exists isnt a major part of the game, I myself think its a later addition devs put it once they realised that it wont be too hard to implement in a small scale.
(The promo & E3 videos shown do not even mention pvp (I could be wrong been a while since I saw them & havent checked this years E3-promo)).
Now since its obvious its a PvE/(carebear) game why do you complain about it not being open pvp? (It was NEVER about pvp in any kind of way).
I just dont get it....
why the hell would you want open PvP in a game like this...
honestly, its like you're playing a Co-op WWII game.... but you want to mow down your allies right in the middle of the D-Day landing...
What the hell is wrong with you?
It just doesnt make any sense at all. This is a STORY-based world. If you arent interested in the story of a war between ALL OF HUMANITY, and "the bad guys"..... pick up a different game.
I dont see why this is so complex. why are you here? You read about the game, you (hopefully) read the interviews about what the game is intending to be.... why would you stick arround long enough to post, when the entire world of this MMO has nothing you want in it?
I just dont see the point in be-moaning features of a game like this. it ISNT the game you want. move on.
The natural tendency of desiring PvP combat derives (possibly)from one thinking that fighting vs living beings involves you more, emotionally, while fighting ugly aliens (who don't REALLY feel pain) will leave you empty of feelings.
But this is not the case cause the realism of the dynamic battlefields , and the condition of humans vs Bane (good vs evil) will have enough ethical conflict and will work like a "recoiling impact" (missing the respective man) and moral involvement to make the most hardened spirit-less powerplayer maniac sob and struggle for all that's good ! For Higara !! (uhm no what game was that?
)
Regarding the question of freedom to choose between good and evil I definitely agree with Ghost-hack, freedom of choice which seems the perfect tool of RP in this case will damage it... if there's too much freedom , and just any choice you make will do , there are person who will go evil carelessly, but if there are heavy consequences to your choices people will start pondering... but it's not TR case since we're the good guys
So if there's no such freedom there will still be moral participation but also hopefully a range of choices within the good faction.
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the problem is most people who want open pvp are generally younger children. I've played in open pvp servers, consensual pvp servers, i've been in bgs, pvp zones, arenas, and just duels. In these types of games, i still have a enjoyable time.
I enjoy fighting other players, i enjoy the act of giving my all to beat someone giving their all. It's really a challenge and enjoyable.
But open pvp does not give excitement, it does not put you in a edge-of-your-seat mood. It's not exciting. Your doing your normal things, and then someone comes and attacks you, you either fight back, win, and be like ya in your face!(this is the rarest of things to happen in open pvp, nobody attacks people they know they cant win. And mainly look for situations where the enemy doesn't stand a chance, fighting mobs, resting, afk.) Or they get ganked, and have to make a corpse run. This does not lead to excitement. It leads to frustration on the behalf of the gankee.
In peoples minds they see open pvp as a world full of adventure, where fights are all challenging and your constantly fighting for your life. Wrong. Thats how it feels in your heart when you think about it, but in the back of your mind, you KNOW, that that's not what really happens.
In open pvp, you either get ganked by someone higher, your ganking someone lower, or your being zerged by a larger force. That is open pvp. That's what happens.
The majority of the people looking for it are after the "OMGZ I JUST PWNED YOUR FACE!!!!111!!1!!one!1" feeling they get from ganking lower people.
If you like pvp, then consensual pvp should be decent for you because it offers challenge and fun. If you like pking then open pvp is what entices you.
Don't claim that it more "realistic" it's not. Don't claim that its more "exciting" it's not. It's more frustrating. Call me a carebear, call me a noob. Whatever. I've seen it enough to know what its really like.
PvE and PvP can not truely coexist openly together and be massively popular, if its realm vs realm(eq2 daoc wow) then it can succeed. Look at mordred in daoc, its one of the least populated servers and its the only open pvp one.
*added on it a quick edit*
Look at EQ2, look at the pvp servers, if it was a 7 level split and it was a level 14-17 zone, you'd generally see 20s going to kill people there.
People never go by themselves either, they generally brought backup with them. Even look in the lower level freeport zone.. i think its the sprawl... it has the dervishs/rat guys/the warrior guys(im horrible with names and its been months since ive played and i wasnt in that zone long) i generally saw people coming in that were at the top of the spread. It was actually very very common from the times i was in there(on my bruiser and my fury).
If people are not looking for OMGWTFGANKZORZ why did they always go to zones where they knew the enemies didnt stand a chance?
Why did high level qeynos camp the docks in the enchanted lands. Why were there full groups of qeynos camping the area before the final boss(before vault) in the ruins occasionally.(saw it twice)
WoW has the exact same thing, a 21 doesnt go to a 21 zone. A 30-60 would.
I agree.
But the real problem about Open PVP is one and ,I wager, what Garriott wanted to prevent, is that open-PvP doesn't involve players' emotions in any way, as the same act of PvPing is a reason enough and after all, what reason could a player possibly have to kill another player (always human) aside from showing that he is "Teh PWna FTW i'm Teh B3st" , thus making ALL the stories ,background and environmental coherent elements appear ridiculous , just like happens in every single mmog before.
So PvE solves everything forcing you to build ethical reasons.
And "friendly pvp" finally puts the silliness , the infantility and uselessness of fragging each other in the right place, the place that's always been its right one.. just "sparring" ... a situation easily roleplayable, too!
For now PvP kills immersion and every story-based game making the game become a sport and brings up the power-geeks tweaking skills and weapons to build the most effective ultra-robot moron... maybe in the future there will be a way to prevent people from enjoying killing each other just for its sake.. but not today.
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