Originally posted by Carbide My concern is that Tabula Rasa without a PvP element will be inately "easy" once players figure out appropriate tactics (which they will). Once you figure out the AI of the creatures what is there left to accomplish? "To kill creature A do this, to kill creature B do this, ect"
I agree that TR is very story oriented but what do you do when you finish the story, or what happens when the next chapter of the story just involves killing more bugs. The longevity of a game is dependent on it's unpredictability or replayability. How many times can you kill the same ncps over and over? Eventually you will seek something more complexe, challenging, and inconsistant which is where PvP comes in most games.
SWG god rest it's soul had an amazing system for large scale consensual PvP in the fashion of Player Association Wars. It made the game thrilling when you'd be traveling alone and have to avoid the PA you were at war with, and at the same time created a lasting bond when you'd saddle up with your PA and go hunting for the opposing forces.
While I love a good story, at the end of the day PvP is what keeps me interested in a game, the senario is never the same unlike instanced content and AI controlled mobs. Because of this I hope TR has at least some pvp element.
That's one of the things I don't get when people use the argument of PVE is boring after you learn the AI of mobs because that is how I feel about PvP. I mean, after you learn the tactics for dealing with class A, class B, class C, etc., ad nauseum , it gets quite boring to me. Then the only thing that is even remotely interesting (notice, I didn't say fun) is ganking.
Course, maybe I just haven't played the right PvP MMos.
Originally posted by Emri Originally posted by Carbide My concern is that Tabula Rasa without a PvP element will be inately "easy" once players figure out appropriate tactics (which they will). Once you figure out the AI of the creatures what is there left to accomplish? "To kill creature A do this, to kill creature B do this, ect"
I agree that TR is very story oriented but what do you do when you finish the story, or what happens when the next chapter of the story just involves killing more bugs. The longevity of a game is dependent on it's unpredictability or replayability. How many times can you kill the same ncps over and over? Eventually you will seek something more complexe, challenging, and inconsistant which is where PvP comes in most games.
SWG god rest it's soul had an amazing system for large scale consensual PvP in the fashion of Player Association Wars. It made the game thrilling when you'd be traveling alone and have to avoid the PA you were at war with, and at the same time created a lasting bond when you'd saddle up with your PA and go hunting for the opposing forces.
While I love a good story, at the end of the day PvP is what keeps me interested in a game, the senario is never the same unlike instanced content and AI controlled mobs. Because of this I hope TR has at least some pvp element.
That's one of the things I don't get when people use the argument of PVE is boring after you learn the AI of mobs because that is how I feel about PvP. I mean, after you learn the tactics for dealing with class A, class B, class C, etc., ad nauseum , it gets quite boring to me. Then the only thing that is even remotely interesting (notice, I didn't say fun) is ganking.
Course, maybe I just haven't played the right PvP MMos.
The point is that player opponents are more versatile in their tactics than the typical AI, thus they are more likely to keep things interesting. If TR is PVE only, I sure hope that their AI is above average.
Another question (independent of AI) is how much you can use the environment to your advantage. I have played some strategy games (like Battle Isle, Command And Conquer...) that were great fun despite the opposing AI being NOT very smart. The enemy was simply given greater numbers and the player had to use every advantage he could get to turn the battle in his favor. Things like terrain, weather or clever strikes against enemy key installations.
Again, that is something most MMORPGs are not good at. Often the ability to hit the enemy is merely a matter of level and being close enough, with skilled maneuvring and taking cover being meaningless. In games that have such features, the GMs tend to punish clever tactics as "safespotting" or "exploiting".
So there is another point where TR could do better than most. If they manage to create a game where sneaky tactics are an intended challenge, not a bannable offense
Well they have a 3rd tier sneaky class the ranger.
One of the ranger's weapons is a targeting rifle. We dont know much about this but I am assuming this means you can sneak somewhere then light up a target to make it easier for your comrades to hit.
On the other side of things - the bane also seem to have a stealth troop.
Just as a disclaimer, if you ever post anything related to eve in relation to my post, please go suck on a tree, because this is written in thought of a player controlled non spaceship world.
Originally posted by Rabiator Originally posted by Emri -snip-
That's one of the things I don't get when people use the argument of PVE is boring after you learn the AI of mobs because that is how I feel about PvP. I mean, after you learn the tactics for dealing with class A, class B, class C, etc., ad nauseum , it gets quite boring to me. Then the only thing that is even remotely interesting (notice, I didn't say fun) is ganking.
Course, maybe I just haven't played the right PvP MMos.
The point is that player opponents are more versatile in their tactics than the typical AI, thus they are more likely to keep things interesting. If TR is PVE only, I sure hope that their AI is above average.
Another question (independent of AI) is how much you can use the environment to your advantage. I have played some strategy games (like Battle Isle, Command And Conquer...) that were great fun despite the opposing AI being NOT very smart. The enemy was simply given greater numbers and the player had to use every advantage he could get to turn the battle in his favor. Things like terrain, weather or clever strikes against enemy key installations.
Again, that is something most MMORPGs are not good at. Often the ability to hit the enemy is merely a matter of level and being close enough, with skilled maneuvring and taking cover being meaningless. In games that have such features, the GMs tend to punish clever tactics as "safespotting" or "exploiting".
So there is another point where TR could do better than most. If they manage to create a game where sneaky tactics are an intended challenge, not a bannable offense I'd have to say i disagree with you here. PvP players -do not- have versatile tactics, no more then any pve encounter would have(less then a scripted one as well).
There is a limit to what a player character can do. There can only be so many skills, talents, attacks, weapons, styles. And the better ones will be played more often then more unique builds. UO was not exempt from this, if you honestly think that that in uo nobody had the same build, and there generally werent builds that alot of pvpers/pkers picked up and used massive... your lieing to yourself.
Once you learn all the skills in the game, its merely identifying which your opponent has and then fighting back against it.
The variables in this come from various things.
1. Numbers. Just how many people are going against how many other people. This can also lead to more untraditional team builds and specifically designed gank squads. But unless this is a massive battle, it shouldn't be unreasonably difficult to tell whos doing what and who you need to kill first, see those people standing back casting/healing...ya i wouldn't let them live that long.
2. Environment, but this is also limited. What can you use to your advantage while still maintaining it as a reasonable strategy. A few very obvious things come into mind.
A. Higher ground, with ranged attacks this will give you a increased opportunity for attacks. It also allows people to set up choke points. But if this was pve, with good ai, itd be relatively easy to simulate, but it requires instancing to be truely effective, due to how a real world would have to work when you change a zone from having 6 people to 50 people. (wouldn't be a issue once level ranges got spread out really thin, but by the time that happens most of everyone would have seen the content).
B. Obstacles, similar to a, but with less use, it will allow you to hide and wait and jump out and attack enemies as they approach, but i personally have went around corners and been aggroed by npcs, the difference isnt whats happening, its how you think about whats happening.
But one thing to not forget is that in a pvp environment there will always be places which will have higher traffic, and will thus oftentimes having more pvp encounters around them. With alot of lesser traveled areas near desolate, this leads to a near empty feeling world. Since which reasonable pk would spend 10 minutes of his time traveling to a area to get maybe 1-3 kills if theres anyone even out there. Yes it does happen, but it's not a everyday occurance.
Eventually as time goes on people will learn the areas that often have pvp, pks, and farmers, and those will be the areas to stay away/target.
And about the guy above me...hes one of the reasons why "Carebears" hate open pvp games. You are not describing "clever tactics" you are describing cheating. Theres plenty of places in games where you can get to through clever terrain usage, that are extremely difficult to get to, such as on top of buildings, or a small ledge alongside a wall. These places are not using the terrain effectively, but instead exploiting poor design in the area, to reach places which shouldnt give you free kills of anyone who passes by simply because they cant get to you though legitimate means. Again using terrain and exploiting is completely different.
And thats pretty much it. You'll very rarely run into any enemy who will truely "Surprise" you by any method after the first month or so of play, it changes from "wow they did something cool!" to "ah they are trying to bait me into that canyon"
----
To another subject, roleplaying.
Is open pvp roleplay friendly? yes in the same way conceptual pvp is rp. If anything open is less friendly simply because its MORE unrealistic.
How so you ask?
1. It's anarchy. No matter how much you defend it or make excuses, there will be a MAJOR amount of people who pk just to pk, no rp, no chat, no words. People often use excuses such as But im RPing a bandit! no your not, bandits will kill people sure, but they will more often just rob people and be off, in fact some bandits/robbers actually just incapacitated/tied up the majority of their victims unless they were in fear of being found out by local guards. And even then, bandits stole to stay alive, to keep eating, to keep affording clothes, and just to live. these rp "bandits" just kill loot and be done, it has nothing to really do with staying alive or living better, its simply just because. The other often excuse i've seen is "Serial killers" these people rp that they are crazed killers, the problem being is that they dont hold any relation to actual sks, they have no mo, no method, nothing to lose. Alot of serial killers do kill alot of people sure, but they dont hide out in the wilderness and kill anyone that goes by. Yes i know it happens, but with no penalty for dieing besides some stat/exp loss, and dropping items(which are easily replaceable since any self respecting pvper in a open system has a complete set of either craft bots, or a farm bot to replace their gear, they don't have to do anything a serial killer would do simply because theres no point.
2. The eye in the sky. Nobodys around, you kill a guy, your flagged as a murderer... Similar to a pvp on/off switch, dont use it as a rp excuse.
3. Reputation(As in darkfalls system) This system is idiotic at best. Someone ganks you, and if your reputation goes down(the killers that is) with your home city, that means you were spotted, and people know what you did. It would only take ONE kill to be kicked out of your city if you were caught. Want realism, welcome to permanant bans from your home city for killing 1 of your own side with anyone, be it npc, or other "survivor" as a witness. That too harsh for you? Well then i guess you don't care for realism, don't use it in a arguement.
4. Permadeath, heres something that turns pks off. If you kill enough -allied- players and caught for them, you should be flagged for permanant death. Since your only rp excuse is bandits or serial killers. Why should you be able to cause suffering if you dont have to face any real penalties. Don't like permadeath, then take "character slot lockdown" for prison time, say you die in a week where you killed 5, thats right only 5, allied players you get that slot locked down for a week. All your slots get locked? well get another account or wait a week, "but thats not fair, i should be able to play whenever i want" Sure, but guess what...dont argue for realism then.
PvP is not infintely dynamic, it is static with dynamic conditions. Don't use realism as a arguement, the same way i won't use realism for a pvp flag system. And don't use dynamic pvp as a excuse. The real statement should say "pve is too static in its current implementation."
ignore any spelling/grammar errors, as well as any time where i trailed off onto another subject...i honestly am exhaused and dont really give a dang what anyone things of this so im not going to perfect it.
Originally posted by Bladin Just as a disclaimer, if you ever post anything related to eve in relation to my post, please go suck on a tree, because this is written in thought of a player controlled non spaceship world.
Originally posted by Rabiator Originally posted by Emri -snip-
That's one of the things I don't get when people use the argument of PVE is boring after you learn the AI of mobs because that is how I feel about PvP. I mean, after you learn the tactics for dealing with class A, class B, class C, etc., ad nauseum , it gets quite boring to me. Then the only thing that is even remotely interesting (notice, I didn't say fun) is ganking.
Course, maybe I just haven't played the right PvP MMos.
The point is that player opponents are more versatile in their tactics than the typical AI, thus they are more likely to keep things interesting. If TR is PVE only, I sure hope that their AI is above average.
Another question (independent of AI) is how much you can use the environment to your advantage. I have played some strategy games (like Battle Isle, Command And Conquer...) that were great fun despite the opposing AI being NOT very smart. The enemy was simply given greater numbers and the player had to use every advantage he could get to turn the battle in his favor. Things like terrain, weather or clever strikes against enemy key installations.
Again, that is something most MMORPGs are not good at. Often the ability to hit the enemy is merely a matter of level and being close enough, with skilled maneuvring and taking cover being meaningless. In games that have such features, the GMs tend to punish clever tactics as "safespotting" or "exploiting".
So there is another point where TR could do better than most. If they manage to create a game where sneaky tactics are an intended challenge, not a bannable offense I'd have to say i disagree with you here. PvP players -do not- have versatile tactics, no more then any pve encounter would have(less then a scripted one as well).
There is a limit to what a player character can do. There can only be so many skills, talents, attacks, weapons, styles. And the better ones will be played more often then more unique builds. UO was not exempt from this, if you honestly think that that in uo nobody had the same build, and there generally werent builds that alot of pvpers/pkers picked up and used massive... your lieing to yourself. They do in games that reward tactics. Many MMORPGS don't, but the "enemy" players in Day Of Defeat (PvP shooter) still surprise me with original moves now and then. After years of playing it. Of course, DOD as a typical shooter has somewhat different variables:
1. Surprise. Fights are fast enough to make the element of surprise important. Which means that ambushing works. If you attack your opponent where he does not expect it, he is usually dead before he can react. I admit this would be difficult to integrate in most MMORPGs (read: demand pretty large changes in game design).
2. Player classes that are quite differencent in their strengths but overall of comparable power. As equivalent, imagine half a dozen optimal builds in a MMORPG that are from different classes but still well balanced. Something a MMORPG really should have, but not all get it right.
3. Well designed environment (on most maps, others tend to become unpopular and are played less). There is the equivalent of high ground for some purposes (sniper/machine gun position with coverage of choke points), but usually there is a counter. Like dropping hand grenades into the position from a point that is covered from direct fire. Or a back alley that leads into the rear of the sniper, with short distances where the submachine classes are at an advantage. Which brings us to obstacles, in most shooters they work thanks to a halfway decent ballistics simulation. The sandbags will actually protect you from bullets. These things would make sense for a MMORPG too, but I've never seen such fine points properly implemented outside of shooters. The developers of Neocron tried, but with limited success.
Of course maps can be badly desired, with no counters for the superb sniper position. But that is a bug that should be fixed, and Valve got it right in DOD:Source. Unlike certain MMORPG companies who believe they can control the problem by banning players who actually use the terrain .
All of this introduces enough dynamics that PVP does not get boring anytime soon.
Originally posted by cprompt Personally, I've always been attracted to selectively allowing long-term players to opt to play the enemy and help direct the AI. Along the lines of "turning to the dark side."
Yes! If only you could have played the monsters, even with all their disadvantages, in Ultima Online - the game would have had a whole new dimension. If there is going to be an enemy, let some players make them worthwhile to fight.
When has everyone agreed in real life? Why would all the humans agree to fight the aliens together? Does magic keep your bullets from damaging other players? I am glad there is magic other wise if someone takes a gun and shoots me in the face I would get hurt.
Sorry fantasy rules arn't much fun. They are linear and make very little sense, leading to pretty much no immersion. Leet speak might even fit the RP of this game since it is futuristic. If some people already talk like that who is to say they wouldn't continue to do so in the future? lol
If you play MMO"s for arena pvp you are wasting your time because there are a lot better arena pvp games out there that don't even have monthly fees. Like CS or BF1942. The combat is a lot more skilled too. So if all you want is a challenge go play those. If you want your kill to mean something that item you have to have a story behind it then you should stick with pvp MMO's. I do both because sometimes I want quick fun from normal FPS and other times I want to do something more meaningful.
On a serious note, even if they spent their time updating AI there is no way they could do it often enough to make it fun. They would need to completely change it about every day to make it fun. There is no way they can do that. Even if they did by the end of the day you would be getting bored of the same AI over and over again. Say you spend 2 hour playing a day well after about 30 mins to an hour you will have probably fought whatever it was you wanted to fight and if you do it again it will be more predictable and less fun. I doubt they will have the story update every day too.
They could even do factions if they wanted to. Have two seperate factions both humans fighting the aliens but, are also slightly aggressive towards each other. This would seem more along the lines of what we humans would actually do rather than just all agree and working together and being happy. Or like other people have said allow players to play as aliens.
In the case of rping a bandit not being realistic. Well, no rp is realistic then since no matter what you rp there is no reason for it. You arn't going to starve to death and if you do, you can just resurrect. If the monster is attacking you there isn't actually a reason to fight back then since you can just resurrect. Little Jimmy stuck in a well? Why save him he will just respawn down there for the next person. So don't bring crap like that into the arguement since it is the same for anything you RP.
If you have permadeath you have to have it for everyone. Unless you are playing a hero class (SWG jedi) where you have some advantage. The thing is people will cry even more because them getting pked will mean more because they will lose their character.
Pvp does have dynamic tactics. In UO, there were always new builds but, also counter builds to the new popular ones. Even in the long pvp fights if your tactics arn't working then you might have to change to kill them. Not like most games where who ever does more damage faster wins.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open. Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
If they have Arenas then, bye bye. They can just stop working. It will fail...
The best is PvE, PvP and RP servers.
Even if I get ganked in WoW, it's still more real and fun. It gives me a war feeling. That me and my guild fight for something.
It's also more fun to kill a real person (player) then just a normal monster. It's a new fight and you must use tactics. Not stand still and do same action over and over again.
Without a real PvP system, this game will suck and never stay alive. It need factions, to give players something to be proud of and fight for. Take over a area and rule the world! ^^
IT would be cool if your faction had a peace treaty with another faction and some vigilante in one of the factions goes off an kills someone from the opposing faction causing a huge war to happen with full PVP action
It's a war game it would not make sense to ask someone if you can fight with them - your suppose to be fully aware of your surroundings as anyone can turn coat
Really is this true??! When I played tabula rasa at E3 I was really impressed by the game and excited you know. but then I noticed the lack of pvp so I got worried/vexed. so, if this is true then I am once again excited bout this MMO. Sweet, glad I checked these forums. A little pvp is better than nothing
Consentual pvp, HA! What a waste of time. I wonder what they'll decide to do next? Maybe we could all go play ring around the rosy, they we can sing songs by the fire, hold hands and just love one another? Sound alright to you? Isn't this trend into consentual pvp going to end soon? It just keeps getting worse. Used to be that you were a pussy if you didn't want to pvp, that you weren't worth fighting anyway cause your pathetic mind couldn't handle the thought of losing. Now it's the norm. PVP? We can't allow that, it might inspire people to compete, to strive for somthing. Can't have people learning to stand on their own two feet can we? Sorry, but you either have a pvp game or a non-pvp game, anything in the middle is just an irritation to me.
wish u wouldnt use the bad language but ya that is a concern of mine. I think WoW handled this well (sry I know many hate WoW just hear me out lol). When my guild raided an alliance city man there was no lack of Allaince. They zerged us bigtime when we tried to step into ironforge proper. so if they give it some effort m-a-y-b-e it can work. however I've seen consentual pvp fail bigtime in MMOs too. yeah I must admit im still more excited bout the pvp mmos like darkfall, WAR, etc but tabula might still be promising. I dunno, I am worried a little still....
Tabula Rasa looks like it will do good in the first few months but after that will fail horribly (like DDO) as far as player base goes. The masses want awsome PvP, not a 1st/3rd person PvE shooter.
If you want a game that will draw in massive amounts of you people and keep them, you need an awsome PvP system and awsome PvE. You can't do one good and the other half-assed. You also need to have constant patches/updates/bugfixes, even if they are small, because to the players, those are (usually) always good and make them feel like the devs are putting a lot of effort into the game.
[quote]Originally posted by RebornDragon [b]Tabula Rasa looks like it will do good in the first few months but after that will fail horribly (like DDO) as far as player base goes. The masses want awsome PvP, not a 1st/3rd person PvE shooter.[/quote]
WOW proves you wrong - where is the awesome pvp in that?
And I disagree that the masses want awesome pvp - I dont and I am one of the masses.
Actually pvp is very popular in WoW. Battlegrounds queues were overfilling when I played. There was always 40v40 fights happening. so yeah just because you didnt like the pvp in WoW doesnt mean anything lol. you're just 1 guy. I know a ton of people that just pvp in WoW, nothing else
But PvP wasnt there at release was it? My understanding was battlegrounds was added some 6 to 12 months later. In which case - millions of people played it without PvP.
[b]Tabula Rasa looks like it will do good in the first few months but after that will fail horribly (like DDO) as far as player base goes. The masses want awsome PvP, not a 1st/3rd person PvE shooter.[/quote] WOW proves you wrong - where is the awesome pvp in that? And I disagree that the masses want awesome pvp - I dont and I am one of the masses.
The fact that more people enter a battleground then enter a raid instance (in WoW) tells me that, and with the amount of players WoW has, that says something. No game in existence can add PvE content quick enough to keep players from getting bored and leaving. That is the problem strictly PvE games have, which TR seems to be.
The majorities of players in MMOs are PvE players. A quiet majority indeed compaired to the vocal minority that PvP players are but the majority nonetheless.
How about you stop bothering us here? Tabula Rasa is a full PvE RPG MMO, end of the matter, and plenty of PvE players here, the majority, are happy with it. There is already a brainless PvP shooter MMOFPS in the work called Huxley, how about you stop checking out the wrong MMO and go see Huxley huh? If you can't grasp that we are in the future and that instead of using swords we use guns and that like RPG the guns get stats and stuff like any sword in any RPG, and that like any RPG it's full PvE with a full background story and lore, quests and missions, then you have not grasped Tabula Rasa and therefore you should stop bothering us, you don't deserve to play the game either.
Originally posted by RebornDragon The fact that more people enter a battleground then enter a raid instance (in WoW) tells me that, and with the amount of players WoW has, that says something. No game in existence can add PvE content quick enough to keep players from getting bored and leaving. That is the problem strictly PvE games have, which TR seems to be.
IMO that just means raids are poor high level PvE content.
And T.R is going to have Clan PvP. Back in 2004 in the previous incantation of the game they were talking of having PvP training grounds or sports. In the current version it seems to be Guild vs Guild battlefields. We dont have any more detail than that.
However it is not open PvP like a shooter.
So for people who really only want PvP - I guess T.R is not a game they will stick around in long-term as thats not the focus of the game. I enjoy the occassional PvP in FPS games, but my main focus is PvE co-operative play.
There are other games coming to market doing differnt PvP things - Conan, War, Fury, Huxley, Darkfall, Eve - I dont see that having full-on PvP automatically means a game will be a failure.
The developers obviously see a market for the game or they wouldnt be spending years and $ making it.
The majorities of players in MMOs are PvE players. A quiet majority indeed compaired to the vocal minority that PvP players are but the majority nonetheless.
The fact that games with good PvP in them dominate those without easily proves you wrong, and you can see this just by looking on the MMORPG ratings.
How about you stop bothering us here? Tabula Rasa is a full PvE RPG MMO, end of the matter, and plenty of PvE players here, the majority, are happy with it. There is already a brainless PvP shooter MMOFPS in the work called Huxley, how about you stop checking out the wrong MMO and go see Huxley huh? If you can't grasp that we are in the future and that instead of using swords we use guns and that like RPG the guns get stats and stuff like any sword in any RPG, and that like any RPG it's full PvE with a full background story and lore, quests and missions, then you have not grasped Tabula Rasa and therefore you should stop bothering us, you don't deserve to play the game either.
I am not here bashing you for not liking PvP, so there is no reason for you to call those who do enjoy PvP "brainless". In-fact, PvP is arguably more difficult then PvE by far as AI doesn't change, people do. If you like failing against a computer generated opponent until you're able to beat it and never fail at it again, good for you, I like to do it on occasion. Others prefer an opponent that thinks for itself and is able to respond and is always a challenge. And again, PvE is no longer the majority in the gaming world, PvP is.
In the top 50 most populated servers, only 6 are PvP.
So thats what 11 out of 100 servers
So I guess the majority of players (89%) dont prefer PvP.
Hey I dont care whether you like PvP or not - my only complaint is with your assumption that T.R will fail if it doesnt have great PvP as the majority of players (in your opinion) prefer Pvp.
yeah but I know ppl that roll on PvE servers just so they dont get ganked. however they still pvp. just because you're on a pve server doesnt mean you cant turn your flag on and pvp. even on this forum many players that roilled toons on PvE servers were depressed that Blizzard wont allow them to transfer to pvp servers
Also dont you find it interesting all the top MMOs on the hype meter all have well established pvp? WAR is #1 followed by Age of Conan. tabula rasa isnt even on that list at all from what I've seen
The 2 most high ranked games on this site have well established pvp. for instance EvE is considered by many a mainly pvp game
also notice most any MMO that comes out with just PvE ends up adding it eventually like EQ2, CoX, FFXI, etc. so sure maybe those games are mainly dominated by pvers but notice WoW still dominates the markey. that leaves me to believe that ppl want variety at some point. Every player I know thats on PvE servers do infact engage in pvp in battlegrounds etc. not saying all of them do cause I have no idea but ev1 I know in real life that rolled on PvE server still does pvp
lastly, the most populated servers dont mean anything really. I know my old PvP server, Mal'Ganis, was full to the rim. Also, not sure if this is still true but WoW has always been known to have way more PvP servers then PvE ones. At least at launch a friend and I was suprised to find the majority of servers were PvP
Anyway I just thought I'd drop by to see if Tabula Rasa would support pvp. Doesnt look like they are making pvp a focus so you are correct for now I wont be following this MMO. I have nothing against PvE MMOs bvut thats just not my cup of tea. I like to have both PvE/PvP.
I did some further checking on WOW stats and overall its about 40/60 pvp/Pve toons. So yes thats millions of people who like pvp. I just get annoyed when people say 'Majority' to me thats like 70 to 80% would be a clear majority.
Well Tabula Rasa will have PvP - just not as a primary focus. We really havent heard much about that so far - just that it will be in at release.
So I guess as you said if someones main focus is PvP - then there are games already on the market - wow, Guild Wars, Eve that cater to this.
But on the most anticipated list are also LOTRO, Vanguard which are mainly PvE. The others stargate, and star trek I dont know if they have pvp or not.
I think if I liked a lot of PvP I would be following Warhammer Online - The realm vs Realm PvP sounds cool. Age of Conan - bleh - I think if games need lots of gore to sell they have a problem.
There are both 98 PvP and PvE (PvP-RP and RP servers merged respectively) servers (though I may have miss counted, feel free to do your own count) in WoW on the US side. Now, how many people are on PvE servers simply because they do not like to be ganked but still love PvP in battlegrounds and such?
I am not saying TR will be a bad game, but it's player base will dwindle like DDO. Pure PvE games can not keep adding content fast enough for people so they don't get bored. No game has been able to, and I don't see any game in the near future that will be able to, or be able to for long.
Just look back at your old games. Why did you quit them? Why are you looking at TR as a new hope? Is it because your old games bore you? Why? Ask yourself.
Yeah I agree with the poster above me. Now to anwser your question shadowmage yes CoX did have pvp however it was tacked on months after the game released. This caused many problems. but yeah in the case of CoX the vast majority is infact PvErs through and through. that game has very little pvp content and doesnt offer any end game pvp rewards. I find it interesting you asked about it cause yeah I dont ever wanna go through that again lol. but yeah the role playing as a hero/villain was fun too bad that game is short on PvE content too
Comments
That's one of the things I don't get when people use the argument of PVE is boring after you learn the AI of mobs because that is how I feel about PvP. I mean, after you learn the tactics for dealing with class A, class B, class C, etc., ad nauseum
, it gets quite boring to me. Then the only thing that is even remotely interesting (notice, I didn't say fun) is ganking.
Course, maybe I just haven't played the right PvP MMos.
That's one of the things I don't get when people use the argument of PVE is boring after you learn the AI of mobs because that is how I feel about PvP. I mean, after you learn the tactics for dealing with class A, class B, class C, etc., ad nauseum
, it gets quite boring to me. Then the only thing that is even remotely interesting (notice, I didn't say fun) is ganking.
Course, maybe I just haven't played the right PvP MMos.
The point is that player opponents are more versatile in their tactics than the typical AI, thus they are more likely to keep things interesting. If TR is PVE only, I sure hope that their AI is above average.
Another question (independent of AI) is how much you can use the environment to your advantage. I have played some strategy games (like Battle Isle, Command And Conquer...) that were great fun despite the opposing AI being NOT very smart. The enemy was simply given greater numbers and the player had to use every advantage he could get to turn the battle in his favor. Things like terrain, weather or clever strikes against enemy key installations.
Again, that is something most MMORPGs are not good at. Often the ability to hit the enemy is merely a matter of level and being close enough, with skilled maneuvring and taking cover being meaningless. In games that have such features, the GMs tend to punish clever tactics as "safespotting" or "exploiting".
So there is another point where TR could do better than most. If they manage to create a game where sneaky tactics are an intended challenge, not a bannable offense
Well they have a 3rd tier sneaky class the ranger.
One of the ranger's weapons is a targeting rifle. We dont know much about this but I am assuming this means you can sneak somewhere then light up a target to make it easier for your comrades to hit.
On the other side of things - the bane also seem to have a stealth troop.
Just as a disclaimer, if you ever post anything related to eve in relation to my post, please go suck on a tree, because this is written in thought of a player controlled non spaceship world.
That's one of the things I don't get when people use the argument of PVE is boring after you learn the AI of mobs because that is how I feel about PvP. I mean, after you learn the tactics for dealing with class A, class B, class C, etc., ad nauseum
, it gets quite boring to me. Then the only thing that is even remotely interesting (notice, I didn't say fun) is ganking.
Course, maybe I just haven't played the right PvP MMos.
The point is that player opponents are more versatile in their tactics than the typical AI, thus they are more likely to keep things interesting. If TR is PVE only, I sure hope that their AI is above average.
Another question (independent of AI) is how much you can use the environment to your advantage. I have played some strategy games (like Battle Isle, Command And Conquer...) that were great fun despite the opposing AI being NOT very smart. The enemy was simply given greater numbers and the player had to use every advantage he could get to turn the battle in his favor. Things like terrain, weather or clever strikes against enemy key installations.
Again, that is something most MMORPGs are not good at. Often the ability to hit the enemy is merely a matter of level and being close enough, with skilled maneuvring and taking cover being meaningless. In games that have such features, the GMs tend to punish clever tactics as "safespotting" or "exploiting".
So there is another point where TR could do better than most. If they manage to create a game where sneaky tactics are an intended challenge, not a bannable offense
I'd have to say i disagree with you here. PvP players -do not- have versatile tactics, no more then any pve encounter would have(less then a scripted one as well).
There is a limit to what a player character can do. There can only be so many skills, talents, attacks, weapons, styles. And the better ones will be played more often then more unique builds. UO was not exempt from this, if you honestly think that that in uo nobody had the same build, and there generally werent builds that alot of pvpers/pkers picked up and used massive... your lieing to yourself.
Once you learn all the skills in the game, its merely identifying which your opponent has and then fighting back against it.
The variables in this come from various things.
1. Numbers. Just how many people are going against how many other people. This can also lead to more untraditional team builds and specifically designed gank squads. But unless this is a massive battle, it shouldn't be unreasonably difficult to tell whos doing what and who you need to kill first, see those people standing back casting/healing...ya i wouldn't let them live that long.
2. Environment, but this is also limited. What can you use to your advantage while still maintaining it as a reasonable strategy. A few very obvious things come into mind.
A. Higher ground, with ranged attacks this will give you a increased opportunity for attacks. It also allows people to set up choke points. But if this was pve, with good ai, itd be relatively easy to simulate, but it requires instancing to be truely effective, due to how a real world would have to work when you change a zone from having 6 people to 50 people. (wouldn't be a issue once level ranges got spread out really thin, but by the time that happens most of everyone would have seen the content).
B. Obstacles, similar to a, but with less use, it will allow you to hide and wait and jump out and attack enemies as they approach, but i personally have went around corners and been aggroed by npcs, the difference isnt whats happening, its how you think about whats happening.
But one thing to not forget is that in a pvp environment there will always be places which will have higher traffic, and will thus oftentimes having more pvp encounters around them. With alot of lesser traveled areas near desolate, this leads to a near empty feeling world. Since which reasonable pk would spend 10 minutes of his time traveling to a area to get maybe 1-3 kills if theres anyone even out there. Yes it does happen, but it's not a everyday occurance.
Eventually as time goes on people will learn the areas that often have pvp, pks, and farmers, and those will be the areas to stay away/target.
And about the guy above me...hes one of the reasons why "Carebears" hate open pvp games. You are not describing "clever tactics" you are describing cheating. Theres plenty of places in games where you can get to through clever terrain usage, that are extremely difficult to get to, such as on top of buildings, or a small ledge alongside a wall. These places are not using the terrain effectively, but instead exploiting poor design in the area, to reach places which shouldnt give you free kills of anyone who passes by simply because they cant get to you though legitimate means. Again using terrain and exploiting is completely different.
And thats pretty much it. You'll very rarely run into any enemy who will truely "Surprise" you by any method after the first month or so of play, it changes from "wow they did something cool!" to "ah they are trying to bait me into that canyon"
----
To another subject, roleplaying.
Is open pvp roleplay friendly? yes in the same way conceptual pvp is rp. If anything open is less friendly simply because its MORE unrealistic.
How so you ask?
1. It's anarchy. No matter how much you defend it or make excuses, there will be a MAJOR amount of people who pk just to pk, no rp, no chat, no words. People often use excuses such as But im RPing a bandit! no your not, bandits will kill people sure, but they will more often just rob people and be off, in fact some bandits/robbers actually just incapacitated/tied up the majority of their victims unless they were in fear of being found out by local guards. And even then, bandits stole to stay alive, to keep eating, to keep affording clothes, and just to live. these rp "bandits" just kill loot and be done, it has nothing to really do with staying alive or living better, its simply just because. The other often excuse i've seen is "Serial killers" these people rp that they are crazed killers, the problem being is that they dont hold any relation to actual sks, they have no mo, no method, nothing to lose. Alot of serial killers do kill alot of people sure, but they dont hide out in the wilderness and kill anyone that goes by. Yes i know it happens, but with no penalty for dieing besides some stat/exp loss, and dropping items(which are easily replaceable since any self respecting pvper in a open system has a complete set of either craft bots, or a farm bot to replace their gear, they don't have to do anything a serial killer would do simply because theres no point.
2. The eye in the sky. Nobodys around, you kill a guy, your flagged as a murderer... Similar to a pvp on/off switch, dont use it as a rp excuse.
3. Reputation(As in darkfalls system) This system is idiotic at best. Someone ganks you, and if your reputation goes down(the killers that is) with your home city, that means you were spotted, and people know what you did. It would only take ONE kill to be kicked out of your city if you were caught. Want realism, welcome to permanant bans from your home city for killing 1 of your own side with anyone, be it npc, or other "survivor" as a witness. That too harsh for you? Well then i guess you don't care for realism, don't use it in a arguement.
4. Permadeath, heres something that turns pks off. If you kill enough -allied- players and caught for them, you should be flagged for permanant death. Since your only rp excuse is bandits or serial killers. Why should you be able to cause suffering if you dont have to face any real penalties. Don't like permadeath, then take "character slot lockdown" for prison time, say you die in a week where you killed 5, thats right only 5, allied players you get that slot locked down for a week. All your slots get locked? well get another account or wait a week, "but thats not fair, i should be able to play whenever i want" Sure, but guess what...dont argue for realism then.
PvP is not infintely dynamic, it is static with dynamic conditions. Don't use realism as a arguement, the same way i won't use realism for a pvp flag system. And don't use dynamic pvp as a excuse. The real statement should say "pve is too static in its current implementation."
ignore any spelling/grammar errors, as well as any time where i trailed off onto another subject...i honestly am exhaused and dont really give a dang what anyone things of this so im not going to perfect it.
That's one of the things I don't get when people use the argument of PVE is boring after you learn the AI of mobs because that is how I feel about PvP. I mean, after you learn the tactics for dealing with class A, class B, class C, etc., ad nauseum
, it gets quite boring to me. Then the only thing that is even remotely interesting (notice, I didn't say fun) is ganking.
Course, maybe I just haven't played the right PvP MMos.
The point is that player opponents are more versatile in their tactics than the typical AI, thus they are more likely to keep things interesting. If TR is PVE only, I sure hope that their AI is above average.
Another question (independent of AI) is how much you can use the environment to your advantage. I have played some strategy games (like Battle Isle, Command And Conquer...) that were great fun despite the opposing AI being NOT very smart. The enemy was simply given greater numbers and the player had to use every advantage he could get to turn the battle in his favor. Things like terrain, weather or clever strikes against enemy key installations.
Again, that is something most MMORPGs are not good at. Often the ability to hit the enemy is merely a matter of level and being close enough, with skilled maneuvring and taking cover being meaningless. In games that have such features, the GMs tend to punish clever tactics as "safespotting" or "exploiting".
So there is another point where TR could do better than most. If they manage to create a game where sneaky tactics are an intended challenge, not a bannable offense
I'd have to say i disagree with you here. PvP players -do not- have versatile tactics, no more then any pve encounter would have(less then a scripted one as well).
There is a limit to what a player character can do. There can only be so many skills, talents, attacks, weapons, styles. And the better ones will be played more often then more unique builds. UO was not exempt from this, if you honestly think that that in uo nobody had the same build, and there generally werent builds that alot of pvpers/pkers picked up and used massive... your lieing to yourself.
They do in games that reward tactics. Many MMORPGS don't, but the "enemy" players in Day Of Defeat (PvP shooter) still surprise me with original moves now and then. After years of playing it. Of course, DOD as a typical shooter has somewhat different variables:
1. Surprise. Fights are fast enough to make the element of surprise important. Which means that ambushing works. If you attack your opponent where he does not expect it, he is usually dead before he can react. I admit this would be difficult to integrate in most MMORPGs (read: demand pretty large changes in game design).
2. Player classes that are quite differencent in their strengths but overall of comparable power. As equivalent, imagine half a dozen optimal builds in a MMORPG that are from different classes but still well balanced. Something a MMORPG really should have, but not all get it right.
3. Well designed environment (on most maps, others tend to become unpopular and are played less).
There is the equivalent of high ground for some purposes (sniper/machine gun position with coverage of choke points), but usually there is a counter. Like dropping hand grenades into the position from a point that is covered from direct fire. Or a back alley that leads into the rear of the sniper, with short distances where the submachine classes are at an advantage.
Which brings us to obstacles, in most shooters they work thanks to a halfway decent ballistics simulation. The sandbags will actually protect you from bullets.
These things would make sense for a MMORPG too, but I've never seen such fine points properly implemented outside of shooters. The developers of Neocron tried, but with limited success.
Of course maps can be badly desired, with no counters for the superb sniper position. But that is a bug that should be fixed, and Valve got it right in DOD:Source. Unlike certain MMORPG companies who believe they can control the problem by banning players who actually use the terrain
All of this introduces enough dynamics that PVP does not get boring anytime soon.
When has everyone agreed in real life? Why would all the humans agree to fight the aliens together? Does magic keep your bullets from damaging other players? I am glad there is magic other wise if someone takes a gun and shoots me in the face I would get hurt.
Sorry fantasy rules arn't much fun. They are linear and make very little sense, leading to pretty much no immersion. Leet speak might even fit the RP of this game since it is futuristic. If some people already talk like that who is to say they wouldn't continue to do so in the future? lol
If you play MMO"s for arena pvp you are wasting your time because there are a lot better arena pvp games out there that don't even have monthly fees. Like CS or BF1942. The combat is a lot more skilled too. So if all you want is a challenge go play those. If you want your kill to mean something that item you have to have a story behind it then you should stick with pvp MMO's. I do both because sometimes I want quick fun from normal FPS and other times I want to do something more meaningful.
On a serious note, even if they spent their time updating AI there is no way they could do it often enough to make it fun. They would need to completely change it about every day to make it fun. There is no way they can do that. Even if they did by the end of the day you would be getting bored of the same AI over and over again. Say you spend 2 hour playing a day well after about 30 mins to an hour you will have probably fought whatever it was you wanted to fight and if you do it again it will be more predictable and less fun. I doubt they will have the story update every day too.
They could even do factions if they wanted to. Have two seperate factions both humans fighting the aliens but, are also slightly aggressive towards each other. This would seem more along the lines of what we humans would actually do rather than just all agree and working together and being happy. Or like other people have said allow players to play as aliens.
In the case of rping a bandit not being realistic. Well, no rp is realistic then since no matter what you rp there is no reason for it. You arn't going to starve to death and if you do, you can just resurrect. If the monster is attacking you there isn't actually a reason to fight back then since you can just resurrect. Little Jimmy stuck in a well? Why save him he will just respawn down there for the next person. So don't bring crap like that into the arguement since it is the same for anything you RP.
If you have permadeath you have to have it for everyone. Unless you are playing a hero class (SWG jedi) where you have some advantage. The thing is people will cry even more because them getting pked will mean more because they will lose their character.
Pvp does have dynamic tactics. In UO, there were always new builds but, also counter builds to the new popular ones. Even in the long pvp fights if your tactics arn't working then you might have to change to kill them. Not like most games where who ever does more damage faster wins.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open.
Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
If they have Arenas then, bye bye. They can just stop working. It will fail...
The best is PvE, PvP and RP servers.
Even if I get ganked in WoW, it's still more real and fun. It gives me a war feeling. That me and my guild fight for something.
It's also more fun to kill a real person (player) then just a normal monster. It's a new fight and you must use tactics. Not stand still and do same action over and over again.
Without a real PvP system, this game will suck and never stay alive. It need factions, to give players something to be proud of and fight for. Take over a area and rule the world! ^^
IT would be cool if your faction had a peace treaty with another faction and some vigilante in one of the factions goes off an kills someone from the opposing faction causing a huge war to happen with full PVP action
It's a war game it would not make sense to ask someone if you can fight with them - your suppose to be fully aware of your surroundings as anyone can turn coat
wish u wouldnt use the bad language but ya that is a concern of mine. I think WoW handled this well (sry I know many hate WoW just hear me out lol). When my guild raided an alliance city man there was no lack of Allaince. They zerged us bigtime when we tried to step into ironforge proper. so if they give it some effort m-a-y-b-e it can work. however I've seen consentual pvp fail bigtime in MMOs too. yeah I must admit im still more excited bout the pvp mmos like darkfall, WAR, etc but tabula might still be promising. I dunno, I am worried a little still....
If you want a game that will draw in massive amounts of you people and keep them, you need an awsome PvP system and awsome PvE. You can't do one good and the other half-assed. You also need to have constant patches/updates/bugfixes, even if they are small, because to the players, those are (usually) always good and make them feel like the devs are putting a lot of effort into the game.
Anyway, just my opinions
[quote]Originally posted by RebornDragon
[b]Tabula Rasa looks like it will do good in the first few months but after that will fail horribly (like DDO) as far as player base goes. The masses want awsome PvP, not a 1st/3rd person PvE shooter.[/quote]
WOW proves you wrong - where is the awesome pvp in that?
And I disagree that the masses want awesome pvp - I dont and I am one of the masses.
Actually pvp is very popular in WoW. Battlegrounds queues were overfilling when I played. There was always 40v40 fights happening. so yeah just because you didnt like the pvp in WoW doesnt mean anything lol. you're just 1 guy. I know a ton of people that just pvp in WoW, nothing else
Well I have never played WOW.
But PvP wasnt there at release was it? My understanding was battlegrounds was added some 6 to 12 months later. In which case - millions of people played it without PvP.
WoW has always had pvp since day 1. We did tons of pvp before Battlegrounds came out. many even say world pvp was more fun. I used to like both
didnt really want to turn this into a WoW conversation was just pointing out something really I'd like to get back on topic
The fact that more people enter a battleground then enter a raid instance (in WoW) tells me that, and with the amount of players WoW has, that says something. No game in existence can add PvE content quick enough to keep players from getting bored and leaving. That is the problem strictly PvE games have, which TR seems to be.
The majorities of players in MMOs are PvE players. A quiet majority indeed compaired to the vocal minority that PvP players are but the majority nonetheless.
How about you stop bothering us here? Tabula Rasa is a full PvE RPG MMO, end of the matter, and plenty of PvE players here, the majority, are happy with it. There is already a brainless PvP shooter MMOFPS in the work called Huxley, how about you stop checking out the wrong MMO and go see Huxley huh? If you can't grasp that we are in the future and that instead of using swords we use guns and that like RPG the guns get stats and stuff like any sword in any RPG, and that like any RPG it's full PvE with a full background story and lore, quests and missions, then you have not grasped Tabula Rasa and therefore you should stop bothering us, you don't deserve to play the game either.
IMO that just means raids are poor high level PvE content.
And T.R is going to have Clan PvP. Back in 2004 in the previous incantation of the game they were talking of having PvP training grounds or sports. In the current version it seems to be Guild vs Guild battlefields. We dont have any more detail than that.
However it is not open PvP like a shooter.
So for people who really only want PvP - I guess T.R is not a game they will stick around in long-term as thats not the focus of the game. I enjoy the occassional PvP in FPS games, but my main focus is PvE co-operative play.
There are other games coming to market doing differnt PvP things - Conan, War, Fury, Huxley, Darkfall, Eve - I dont see that having full-on PvP automatically means a game will be a failure.
The developers obviously see a market for the game or they wouldnt be spending years and $ making it.
The fact that games with good PvP in them dominate those without easily proves you wrong, and you can see this just by looking on the MMORPG ratings.
How about you stop bothering us here? Tabula Rasa is a full PvE RPG MMO, end of the matter, and plenty of PvE players here, the majority, are happy with it. There is already a brainless PvP shooter MMOFPS in the work called Huxley, how about you stop checking out the wrong MMO and go see Huxley huh? If you can't grasp that we are in the future and that instead of using swords we use guns and that like RPG the guns get stats and stuff like any sword in any RPG, and that like any RPG it's full PvE with a full background story and lore, quests and missions, then you have not grasped Tabula Rasa and therefore you should stop bothering us, you don't deserve to play the game either.
I am not here bashing you for not liking PvP, so there is no reason for you to call those who do enjoy PvP "brainless". In-fact, PvP is arguably more difficult then PvE by far as AI doesn't change, people do. If you like failing against a computer generated opponent until you're able to beat it and never fail at it again, good for you, I like to do it on occasion. Others prefer an opponent that thinks for itself and is able to respond and is always a challenge. And again, PvE is no longer the majority in the gaming world, PvP is.
You != Majority.
Well I just check the US Realm stats for WOW http://www.warcraftrealms.com/realmstats.php?sort=Total
In the top 50 most populated servers, only 5 are PvP the rest are PvE and RP servers. In fact non of the top 13 servers by population are PvP.
I also check the European Realm stats for WOW http://www.warcraftrealms.com/eu_realmstats.php?sort=Total
In the top 50 most populated servers, only 6 are PvP.
So thats what 11 out of 100 servers
So I guess the majority of players (89%) dont prefer PvP.
Hey I dont care whether you like PvP or not - my only complaint is with your assumption that T.R will fail if it doesnt have great PvP as the majority of players (in your opinion) prefer Pvp.
yeah but I know ppl that roll on PvE servers just so they dont get ganked. however they still pvp. just because you're on a pve server doesnt mean you cant turn your flag on and pvp. even on this forum many players that roilled toons on PvE servers were depressed that Blizzard wont allow them to transfer to pvp servers
Also dont you find it interesting all the top MMOs on the hype meter all have well established pvp? WAR is #1 followed by Age of Conan. tabula rasa isnt even on that list at all from what I've seen
The 2 most high ranked games on this site have well established pvp. for instance EvE is considered by many a mainly pvp game
also notice most any MMO that comes out with just PvE ends up adding it eventually like EQ2, CoX, FFXI, etc. so sure maybe those games are mainly dominated by pvers but notice WoW still dominates the markey. that leaves me to believe that ppl want variety at some point. Every player I know thats on PvE servers do infact engage in pvp in battlegrounds etc. not saying all of them do cause I have no idea but ev1 I know in real life that rolled on PvE server still does pvp
lastly, the most populated servers dont mean anything really. I know my old PvP server, Mal'Ganis, was full to the rim. Also, not sure if this is still true but WoW has always been known to have way more PvP servers then PvE ones. At least at launch a friend and I was suprised to find the majority of servers were PvP
Anyway I just thought I'd drop by to see if Tabula Rasa would support pvp. Doesnt look like they are making pvp a focus so you are correct for now I wont be following this MMO. I have nothing against PvE MMOs bvut thats just not my cup of tea. I like to have both PvE/PvP.
I did some further checking on WOW stats and overall its about 40/60 pvp/Pve toons. So yes thats millions of people who like pvp. I just get annoyed when people say 'Majority' to me thats like 70 to 80% would be a clear majority.
Well Tabula Rasa will have PvP - just not as a primary focus. We really havent heard much about that so far - just that it will be in at release.
So I guess as you said if someones main focus is PvP - then there are games already on the market - wow, Guild Wars, Eve that cater to this.
But on the most anticipated list are also LOTRO, Vanguard which are mainly PvE. The others stargate, and star trek I dont know if they have pvp or not.
I think if I liked a lot of PvP I would be following Warhammer Online - The realm vs Realm PvP sounds cool. Age of Conan - bleh - I think if games need lots of gore to sell they have a problem.
Do COV/COH have PvP? As I see you played those.
I am not saying TR will be a bad game, but it's player base will dwindle like DDO. Pure PvE games can not keep adding content fast enough for people so they don't get bored. No game has been able to, and I don't see any game in the near future that will be able to, or be able to for long.
Just look back at your old games. Why did you quit them? Why are you looking at TR as a new hope? Is it because your old games bore you? Why? Ask yourself.
Yeah I agree with the poster above me. Now to anwser your question shadowmage yes CoX did have pvp however it was tacked on months after the game released. This caused many problems. but yeah in the case of CoX the vast majority is infact PvErs through and through. that game has very little pvp content and doesnt offer any end game pvp rewards. I find it interesting you asked about it cause yeah I dont ever wanna go through that again lol. but yeah the role playing as a hero/villain was fun too bad that game is short on PvE content too