Originally posted by gnomexxx Originally posted by BobCrazyton Originally posted by freethinker i think it's great gays are allowed to adopt kids. especially if they're good people and love eachother...children can really benifit from having parents that love them.
Ya but then again the kid has a good chance of being harassed when he's in school.Mainly middle and early highschool when kids judgements aren't that great. But i'm not saying i don't agree with it. I was harassed in school for being short and having red hair. So what. I just learned those guys were jerks. Their problem, not mine.
And it's not the kids who get harassed who grow up with a problem. It's the kids who do the harassing. They're the ones with issues.
I would take a good set of gay parents over a mediocre set of straight parents any day. I just want to be taught how to be decent human being and get along in society when I'm a child. And a gay couple is more than capable of doing that. The harassment at school would be more than worth it when I turn out to be a good adult.
when you're short and have red hair no type of parents will help you. Straight,gay,bi, it doesn't matter , you're screwed either way.
I don't understand why anyone is picked on cause of red hair LOL! That never happened in any of my schools infact when I was in JR. High school I had a crush on a guy with red hair. NOw As to the topic at hand. I don't understand why we are even discussing homosexuality on an MMORPG site LOL! Who cares about what 2 people do in the privacy of their own bedroom, just give me an AWESOME MMORPG!
Almost all hate groups use the bible to prove their hatred is divine, from the Aryan Nation to the KKK, to Fred Phelps, etc.
The Bible can be twisted and construed into a book of hate instead of the book of redemption that it truly is. Arguging the Bible to these people is pointless. They are doing the devils work and yet their so naive, they cant even see it.
Originally posted by Scorpes Almost all hate groups use the bible to prove their hatred is divine, from the Aryan Nation to the KKK, to Fred Phelps, etc. The Bible can be twisted and construed into a book of hate instead of the book of redemption that it truly is. Arguing the Bible to these people is pointless. They are doing the devils work and yet their so naive, they cant even see it.
Personally I would like to see this topic closed. I don't see the point in Discussing this issue further on a game site. Almost every major religion says that being gay is a sin not just Christianity. Do you know that Gay people are stoned to death in the Muslim faith? Heck in the Muslim faith you are also stoned to death if you are accused of being a Christian. The way I feel is that if the bible is right and homosexuality is a sin then when they die they will be judged accordingly as the bible says everyone will be judged and the bible also says it is not for me to judge so I wont.that is gods job.NOw if there is no god, then There is no problem now is there?
If you dont like it then dont come in here, and just because this is a gaming site does not mean we only need to discuss gaming. Did you happen to notice
"Off-Topic Discussion"
Just because you dont like something, doesnt mean it shouldnt be discussed. Or do we need to check in with you to see if you approve?
I dont think you have to use the Bible in order to prove that gay is wrong. A person who hates gay people for being gay are horrible people, you should never hate someone just because of what they are. You can hate that life style but you should not hate the person, they still deserve to be treated with respect. However in relation to the Bibel yes it clearly says that the gay life style is wrong and it is a sin, just like many many other sins like sex before marriage etc... etc...etc.... But yoou dont just need the bible in order to see that gay is wrong, simple take the pyhsical body itself is evidence that the gay life style is wrong, it has never been and will never be proven that being gay is in a person's body chemistry like many people who are gay like to a say it is, in fact virtually all the evidence has proven that the gay life style is a choice the person makes for themselves. But back on to the human body simple put men are not made that way, we are not made to be with other men sexually, we dont have the physically make up for it, and thats a fact. So to me that tells me in itself that if we are not made that way, then that is not what we are suppose to do.
Originally posted by Scorpes If you dont like it then dont come in here, and just because this is a gaming site does not mean we only need to discuss gaming. Did you happen to notice "Off-Topic Discussion"
Just because you dont like something, doesnt mean it shouldnt be discussed. Or do we need to check in with you to see if you approve?
OH don't give me that BS. You know that a topic such as this is only going to cause flames, such as you did. No you don't have to check in with me, you don't have to check in with anyone but the mods. Just because homosexuality is frowned upon by most of the worlds religions does not make them evil, but that is how they are perceived. I have many gay friends as I have said I do not judge, that is up to god to do, if there is even a god. Guess I wont find that out till the day I die. YEs this is off topic, I am just saying that any discussion on this topic is going to burst into flames. I also post on A Disney site and all threads pertaining to Homosexuality are always closed and deleted cause they always end in a flame fest. IT is known that at least 90% of Disney employees are gay and Disney even provides same sex partner benefits to it's employees, which only makes sense since 90% of their employees(cast members) are gay. All I am saying is this discussion is going to cause a lot of grief, hurt feelings and some might even be banned cause of it. There was this girl on one Disney site her name was disneyanna who was constantly saying things like all homos are going to hell and such and she got banned for it.
Originally posted by LickyDickyoo I dont think you have to use the Bible in order to prove that gay is wrong. A person who hates gay people for being gay are horrible people, you should never hate someone just because of what they are. You can hate that life style but you should not hate the person, they still deserve to be treated with respect. However in relation to the Bibel yes it clearly says that the gay life style is wrong and it is a sin, just like many many other sins like sex before marriage etc... etc...etc.... But yoou dont just need the bible in order to see that gay is wrong, simple take the pyhsical body itself is evidence that the gay life style is wrong, it has never been and will never be proven that being gay is in a person's body chemistry like many people who are gay like to a say it is, in fact virtually all the evidence has proven that the gay life style is a choice the person makes for themselves. But back on to the human body simple put men are not made that way, we are not made to be with other men sexually, we dont have the physically make up for it, and thats a fact. So to me that tells me in itself that if we are not made that way, then that is not what we are suppose to do.
Huh???
Trust me, I did not choose to be gay. I know that it's hard for some people to believe others think different from them or have a different life experience, but give it a try. If you want to know what gay people are going through, why not ask someone who's gay and is experiencing it rather than going by what someone standing on the outside is saying.
And you're wrong about the scientific evidence pointing towards it being a choice. There have been tons of studies that show there may be more than one reason people turn out gay. Personally, I think it may be a combination of factors. But, I don't know. All I do know is that I did not choose this. If people do choose their sexuality, then tell me when you chose to be straight.
Oh, and gay people can have sex. We don't just stare at each other and clumsily keep bumping our bodies together until we tire out and collapse. I've seen straight sex like that though.
I am afraid that you have chosen to be gay, and yes all the gay people I know have said that they did not chose to be gay they were born that way, but after many discussions on the matter in the end they all end up agreeing that they did choose to be gay. As far as me saying that gays can not have sex I did not say that, what I said was that mens bodies are not designed for that type of sex, it is a proven fact of the health problems that gay men develop due to the sort of sex, ranging from many numerous things that invovles the mans bum hole having things put into it that should never be in there in the first place. Please dont try to sell me on some made up BS, and base things opn facts an not on un proven facts.
Originally posted by upallnight Originally posted by LickyDickyoo I dont think you have to use the Bible in order to prove that gay is wrong. A person who hates gay people for being gay are horrible people, you should never hate someone just because of what they are. You can hate that life style but you should not hate the person, they still deserve to be treated with respect. However in relation to the Bible yes it clearly says that the gay life style is wrong and it is a sin, just like many many other sins like sex before marriage etc... etc...etc.... But you dont just need the bible in order to see that gay is wrong, simple take the physical body itself is evidence that the gay life style is wrong, it has never been and will never be proven that being gay is in a person's body chemistry like many people who are gay like to a say it is, in fact virtually all the evidence has proven that the gay life style is a choice the person makes for themselves. But back on to the human body simple put men are not made that way, we are not made to be with other men sexually, we dont have the physically make up for it, and thats a fact. So to me that tells me in itself that if we are not made that way, then that is not what we are suppose to do.
Huh???
Trust me, I did not choose to be gay. I know that it's hard for some people to believe others think different from them or have a different life experience, but give it a try. If you want to know what gay people are going through, why not ask someone who's gay and is experiencing it rather than going by what someone standing on the outside is saying.
And you're wrong about the scientific evidence pointing towards it being a choice. There have been tons of studies that show there may be more than one reason people turn out gay. Personally, I think it may be a combination of factors. But, I don't know. All I do know is that I did not choose this. If people do choose their sexuality, then tell me when you chose to be straight.
Oh, and gay people can have sex. We don't just stare at each other and clumsily keep bumping our bodies together until we tire out and collapse. I've seen straight sex like that though.
Well Research does not prove or disprove anything as they have not found what causes homosexuality, no hormone no nothing so to this date everything is speculation.I knew this was going to cause hard feelings and even hurt feelings. *shakes head*
I think homosexuality is genetic and perfectly natural and normal, and healthy.
Religions have been trying to make humans something they are not for thousands of years, it isn't going to work! honestly I would have thought they would have got the message by now.
Maybe we will all become sexless perfect sinless angels when we die, but until then why doesn't religeon focus on things that can be changed, like corruption and poverty etc
Anyway I know a lot of religous people are ok, so I am not starting on them, just the ones who for some reason cannot help themselves from telling other people how to live their own lives, when they are not hurting anybody.
Originally posted by LickyDickyoo I am afraid that you have chosen to be gay, and yes all the gay people I know have said that they did not chose to be gay they were born that way, but after many discussions on the matter in the end they all end up agreeing that they did choose to be gay. As far as me saying that gays can not have sex I did not say that, what I said was that mens bodies are not designed for that type of sex, it is a proven fact of the health problems that gay men develop due to the sort of sex, ranging from many numerous things that invovles the mans bum hole having things put into it that should never be in there in the first place. Please dont try to sell me on some made up BS, and base things opn facts an not on un proven facts.
I m gonna prove u are wrong, read this research, like i already posted it earlier on this same topic it just also shows you dont read the posts... http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-05-09-homosexual-brains_x.htm ... if u read it carefully, you will note that nobody can choose how his/her brain works and his or her body odor works...
Originally posted by osiloa Originally posted by upallnight Originally posted by LickyDickyoo I dont think you have to use the Bible in order to prove that gay is wrong. A person who hates gay people for being gay are horrible people, you should never hate someone just because of what they are. You can hate that life style but you should not hate the person, they still deserve to be treated with respect. However in relation to the Bible yes it clearly says that the gay life style is wrong and it is a sin, just like many many other sins like sex before marriage etc... etc...etc.... But you dont just need the bible in order to see that gay is wrong, simple take the physical body itself is evidence that the gay life style is wrong, it has never been and will never be proven that being gay is in a person's body chemistry like many people who are gay like to a say it is, in fact virtually all the evidence has proven that the gay life style is a choice the person makes for themselves. But back on to the human body simple put men are not made that way, we are not made to be with other men sexually, we dont have the physically make up for it, and thats a fact. So to me that tells me in itself that if we are not made that way, then that is not what we are suppose to do.
Huh???
Trust me, I did not choose to be gay. I know that it's hard for some people to believe others think different from them or have a different life experience, but give it a try. If you want to know what gay people are going through, why not ask someone who's gay and is experiencing it rather than going by what someone standing on the outside is saying.
And you're wrong about the scientific evidence pointing towards it being a choice. There have been tons of studies that show there may be more than one reason people turn out gay. Personally, I think it may be a combination of factors. But, I don't know. All I do know is that I did not choose this. If people do choose their sexuality, then tell me when you chose to be straight.
Oh, and gay people can have sex. We don't just stare at each other and clumsily keep bumping our bodies together until we tire out and collapse. I've seen straight sex like that though.
Well Research does not prove or disprove anything as they have not found what causes homosexuality, no hormone no nothing so to this date everything is speculation.I knew this was going to cause hard feelings and even hurt feelings. *shakes head*
My research, being myself going through it, has proven to me that I didn't choose to be this way. I have tried to be straight. I can't. I don't have that capacity to fall in love with a girl. It's just not there.
And I'm not hurt at all. Don't have any hard feelings either. It's okay.
I know some people don't understand me. I also know that there are more people in the world every day that are learning about what makes us tick. And I trust that love, compassion, and the facts will win out in the end.
Originally posted by LickyDickyoo I am afraid that you have chosen to be gay, and yes all the gay people I know have said that they did not chose to be gay they were born that way, but after many discussions on the matter in the end they all end up agreeing that they did choose to be gay. As far as me saying that gays can not have sex I did not say that, what I said was that mens bodies are not designed for that type of sex, it is a proven fact of the health problems that gay men develop due to the sort of sex, ranging from many numerous things that invovles the mans bum hole having things put into it that should never be in there in the first place. Please dont try to sell me on some made up BS, and base things opn facts an not on un proven facts.
Which gays are you talking about that decided it was a choice? Where are you getting that from?
And I haven't gotten one single health problem from being gay. People get sexually transmitted diseases from being irresponsible sexually. Straight people and gay people get them. Most straight women have been exposed to the HPV virus that causes cirvical cancer when they get older. Does that mean that straight sex is wrong? And it's straight men that are giving it to them.
And if you're referring to AIDS then you need to be able to apply that rule to all situations. Which, if you look at the AIDS rate in Africa and who mostly has it there, that rule doesn't apply anymore. So you'd be basing that on anectdotal evidence.
Sexually responsible people, straight and gay, have the same chance at catching an STD. If you choose to act irresponsibly then that's going to catch up with you no matter what sexual orientation you are.
I think you've been given some bunk info. I'm telling you right now that I did not choose to be gay. If you refuse to believe that, then you're just closing your eyes to what you don't want to see. You living your life with that narrow minded perspective is a choice. If you want to be honest about choices we make, then there ya go.
Originally posted by naldric Originally posted by LickyDickyoo I am afraid that you have chosen to be gay, and yes all the gay people I know have said that they did not chose to be gay they were born that way, but after many discussions on the matter in the end they all end up agreeing that they did choose to be gay. As far as me saying that gays can not have sex I did not say that, what I said was that mens bodies are not designed for that type of sex, it is a proven fact of the health problems that gay men develop due to the sort of sex, ranging from many numerous things that invovles the mans bum hole having things put into it that should never be in there in the first place. Please dont try to sell me on some made up BS, and base things opn facts an not on un proven facts.
I m gonna prove u are wrong, read this research, like i already posted it earlier on this same topic it just also shows you dont read the posts... http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-05-09-homosexual-brains_x.htm ... if u read it carefully, you will note that nobody can choose how his/her brain works and his or her body odor works...
Naldric, I don't think he's here to get the facts. Good post though. It's just one piece of data that shows these people are wrong and don't want to face up to it.
Just look at his name. LickyDickyoo. He's obviously created an account to troll and flame.
And look at his sig. He wants to state he loves hookers and then talk about homosexuals catching diseases?!?!?! He's obviously a big thinker.
Originally posted by osiloa Originally posted by Scorpes If you dont like it then dont come in here, and just because this is a gaming site does not mean we only need to discuss gaming. Did you happen to notice "Off-Topic Discussion"
Just because you dont like something, doesnt mean it shouldnt be discussed. Or do we need to check in with you to see if you approve?
OH don't give me that BS. You know that a topic such as this is only going to cause flames, such as you did. No you don't have to check in with me, you don't have to check in with anyone but the mods. Just because homosexuality is frowned upon by most of the worlds religions does not make them evil, but that is how they are perceived. I have many gay friends as I have said I do not judge, that is up to god to do, if there is even a god. Guess I wont find that out till the day I die. YEs this is off topic, I am just saying that any discussion on this topic is going to burst into flames. I also post on A Disney site and all threads pertaining to Homosexuality are always closed and deleted cause they always end in a flame fest. IT is known that at least 90% of Disney employees are gay and Disney even provides same sex partner benefits to it's employees, which only makes sense since 90% of their employees(cast members) are gay. All I am saying is this discussion is going to cause a lot of grief, hurt feelings and some might even be banned cause of it. There was this girl on one Disney site her name was disneyanna who was constantly saying things like all homos are going to hell and such and she got banned for it.
Just because peoples feelings might be hurt, and people might be banned, lets not talk about it? Lets not talk about anything then thats controversial because, well, people might be upset? I'm sorry but you need to do alot better than that. Passionate discussion and argument is what this couintry was founded on. A Clash of ideas, that over time filter out the good ideas from the bad ones.
Not discussing something just because it may bring out the worst in people is simply the dumbest form of censorship that exists. Sure it may bring out the worst in people, but it also can bring out the best. Frankly, anyone who says
"I dont like this topic so it should be closed"
Has little understanding or respect for democracy and freedom of speech, especially using a flimsy excuse and reason that goes along the lines of "peoples feelings might be hurt"
There is nothing wrong with you being a gay, it in no way means that you are a bad person, my position is that the gay life style is wrong, there is plenty of facts and evidence to back that up all you have to do is reserch into the health concerns that are direct results of it. As well my position is also that gay people chose to be gay, they are not born gay, they are not made gay, they pick that life style for themselves and that is what they want, that is my position due to the fact that there is no evidence at all proving that it is anything else other then a choice. Without there being any evidence what so ever of this being something that people are born with the plain simple truth from that is that the person picks it for themselves to live that kind of life. As far as the other person there is concerned who says he has evidence I did take a look at it and there is nothing there at all that even comes remotly close to proving a thing, so sorry but no cigar.
This is the problem with gays and people who support them, as soon as you say that you do not agree with there life style and you have you own opions all of a sudden you are a person who hates gays. As I have stated before I do not hate a person becuase they are gay, as I have said before they deserve respect like anyone else, but I do not agree with there life style it is wrong and it is unhealthy and not natural at all the facts prove that without a doubt, and also I do not go along with this theory that they are born gay due to the fact that there is no such evidence at all.
As far as gays are concerned in the end it does not matter what anyone thinks it is popular to accept gays for who they are and to accept there life style this is very evident in everything it is taguht in school,s that it is a prefectly normal thing to be gay you are born that way they do teach that actually which is funny since they dont have anything to actually teach tgo prove it but that does not matter in the end. Gays are very much accepted in society today, however I feel that it should be of some note that since gays feel that they are born with this condition that it is okay then and that there life style is normal and fine, I can live with that really. But if they are born with this situation were they are gay, then what if a person decided to have 5 wives and childern to all women, most people would consider that sick, however it is an alternative life style and who are you or I to say that they are not born with that inbreed need to live that way. Or what if someone really likes kids, likes to touch them and molest them, is that also very very sick, but then again who are you or I to say that person is not born with a condition that makes them have that need that urge to do that, as far as anyone else is concerned that is also just another alternative life style that is left up to science. In all of these cases as sick as some of them are, in the end who is to say that these are not true, and if they are, then how can we really say that this is all wrong.
That does not prove anything once again all they can do is assume. I don't think there is anyone out there that doesn't realize that gay men respond the same way that heterosexual woman respond.
Originally posted by LickyDickyoo There is nothing wrong with you being a gay, it in no way means that you are a bad person, my position is that the gay life style is wrong, there is plenty of facts and evidence to back that up all you have to do is reserch into the health concerns that are direct results of it. As well my position is also that gay people chose to be gay, they are not born gay, they are not made gay, they pick that life style for themselves and that is what they want, that is my position due to the fact that there is no evidence at all proving that it is anything else other then a choice. Without there being any evidence what so ever of this being something that people are born with the plain simple truth from that is that the person picks it for themselves to live that kind of life. As far as the other person there is concerned who says he has evidence I did take a look at it and there is nothing there at all that even comes remotly close to proving a thing, so sorry but no cigar. This is the problem with gays and people who support them, as soon as you say that you do not agree with there life style and you have you own opions all of a sudden you are a person who hates gays. As I have stated before I do not hate a person becuase they are gay, as I have said before they deserve respect like anyone else, but I do not agree with there life style it is wrong and it is unhealthy and not natural at all the facts prove that without a doubt, and also I do not go along with this theory that they are born gay due to the fact that there is no such evidence at all. As far as gays are concerned in the end it does not matter what anyone thinks it is popular to accept gays for who they are and to accept there life style this is very evident in everything it is taguht in school,s that it is a prefectly normal thing to be gay you are born that way they do teach that actually which is funny since they dont have anything to actually teach tgo prove it but that does not matter in the end. Gays are very much accepted in society today, however I feel that it should be of some note that since gays feel that they are born with this condition that it is okay then and that there life style is normal and fine, I can live with that really. But if they are born with this situation were they are gay, then what if a person decided to have 5 wives and childern to all women, most people would consider that sick, however it is an alternative life style and who are you or I to say that they are not born with that inbreed need to live that way. Or what if someone really likes kids, likes to touch them and molest them, is that also very very sick, but then again who are you or I to say that person is not born with a condition that makes them have that need that urge to do that, as far as anyone else is concerned that is also just another alternative life style that is left up to science. In all of these cases as sick as some of them are, in the end who is to say that these are not true, and if they are, then how can we really say that this is all wrong.
Okay, problems with your post. Let me list them...
1.) Nobody said you hated gays. And just because you disagree with their lifestyle most people don't assume you hate gays. That's something that you're making up. At least from this thread, I haven't seen anyone say that you hate gays. Including Upallnight, who is gay himself. So I'm not sure where you got that from.
2.) You say there is no proof that gays are born that way so you don't believe it. Well, then prove that they're not. I know that is in most cases a lame argument, but in this case I don't think it is. And I'll tell you why. Because you are not considering the statements made by the people going through it. You're taking their stories and totally disregarding them. If Upallnight says he was born that way and didn't make the decision to be gay, then why don't you believe him. Why would anyone choose to be gay anyhow? Have you thought about that. And Upallnight has made the statement on these boards that he wouldn't be gay if he could change it. So, what. Does he just wake up one day and decide he likes trim all of a sudden. I don't think it works quite that way. That's about as silly as me waking up one day and deciding I want to chase men. Why do you discredit gay peoples stories?
3.) Both gay and straight lifestyles have the risk for you to contract sexually transmitted diseases. You ignored what Upallnight told you. If a gay man is responsible about his sexual acitvities his chances of contracting a sexually transmitted disease are no more than yours. And dare I say that if it weren't for AIDS, then even without using a condom a gay mans chances of catching an STD would be about the same. Don't use the AIDS virus as a means to prove your point. That's a new disease. Once a cure or a vaccination for AIDS is found, what disease are you going to point to then?
4.) Saying gay acceptance will lead to polygamy being accepted is an old trick. But since you brought up the point, if a group of adults want to live in a polygamous relationship, then why shouldn't they have the right? I may not agree with it, but they're consenting adults. I believe in their freedom to do whatever they want.
5.) Equating a homosexual being born the way they are with a child molester is another old trick. A child molester goes after children. Children are not consenting adults. They don't say it's okay to have sex with me. You're just trying to use something derogatory to bring emotion into the argument. Homosexuals are in a loving consensual adult relationships. That is not what child molesters and children are doing.
Now if you want to pick those apart go ahead. But please don't ignore the points I made like you did Upallnights. You just restated what you already said. Take the points one by one and address the issues I brought up with facts.
Why not just drop marriage from govermental (federal or state) oversight? That is, no recognition of marriages by goverment agencies at any level. Boom, nothing to debate anymore.
Originally posted by lardmouth Why not just drop marriage from govermental (federal or state) oversight? That is, no recognition of marriages by goverment agencies at any level. Boom, nothing to debate anymore.
If it were that simple I'd be all for this suggestion. But think of the tax laws that would have to be changed. how would you deal with material possessions after a divorce? There would have to be some kind of Government oversight.
I think the simplist solution would just be to allow same sex marriages or "unions" or whatever the hell you want to call them.
The world is doomed anyways. No sense in making a big stink over this.
There are some christians who think for themselves. They're called Bible scholars. And the vast majority of them will tell you that the untranslated original texts of the Bible do not condemn homosexuality.
Ahh yes - "Bible Scholar".
I'm assuming you speak of the same, "Bible Scholars", that have the cojones to twist, and deceive - Even to the extent of making it seem like Jesus had no problem with pedophilia -- Trying to use the case of the Roman Commander, by saying his servant was really his young/boy lover, and since Jesus healed the servant - Which they tried to distort to make it as the Roman Commanders' catamite - That he had no problem with it. But yet the irony is laid in place for the fact that the only condemnation/judgment that Christ put forth in the gospels wasn't murder, or any other brazen 10 commandments style sin, but Child molesters/Pedophiliacs.
Now I'm sure there will be some "Bible Scholars", that would find some way to speak enough rubbish to make it seem almost like a rebut, or maybe even some of them knows that even our society - although not much - has limits - although I'm sure that will change eventually; after all, the bar keeps on being lowered, sooner more likely than later, there will be no bar.
Having some Pharisee twisting the Bible into accordance of what you may personally believe, does not make them Bible Scholars; only liars.
Originally posted by kimmar What's wicked about the act, Aldaron?
Explain to someone who doesn't read the Bible the same as you or who isn't your brand of christian what's wicked about homosexuals.
You're questioning from a religious - even religiously Christian - viewpoint I'm still assuming, yes?
Who doesn't read the Bible the same as me? I can understand in certain parts where this may be questioned. The books of Daniel, Revelation, even some of the Parables may cause a bit of a cloud in the mind, wondering what exactly it's talking about, when, etc. These are things that could require a bit of deciphering. What is the beast with seven heads and ten crowns? Who or what exactly is the whore of Babylon? I may think one thing on that matter, and maybe someone could read it as another. That is understandable - After all, it was even prophesied that man would not understand some of these things until later dates.
But the judgment - condemnation if you will - upon acts like homosexuality -- How can they be received differently? It isn't...well, I was going to say Greek, but ironically it was. You get the idea though. How can someone read it different, unless they have a slanted view based on personal reasons to indulge in that which is condemned, thus going as so far to ignore the scripture among themselves/themself, or even let themselves be deceived by untruths?
Such blatant statements as made in the Bible of the condemnation of homosexuality isn't shrouded in ambiguity - It is blatant - How can there be any question?
As for the statement about "my brand of Christian". In this modern facade of people putting up about them being in Christendom, there is only a separation between them that seek the truth, and them that do not. Those of the former, are my brand - Though some I may even dispute certain theological beliefs they have. So just because I may not agree with someone, does not make them exluded from my "brand" - The latter are not of Christendom, but are hypocrites as the Pharisees'. They wish only to "interpret" the moral code of the Bible to bend it - the word of God - to their will. When being a Christian was never about bending it to suit you, it was about bending yourself to suit it.
Originally posted by naldric
oh yeah, it was so consensual that they could be set free in the case of being blinded by the owner for example...
I said sometimes.
Strange, as you say that Jesus came to fullfill the old rules, but for the rulez that dont interest you, you say, those things were done away,
It has nothing to do with what interests me or not. If you disbelieve my account, look it up in the Bible yourself; I gave you the scripture.
that was my whole point talking about Maria Madalena, but you just dissected it and took it out of context... of course...
To my knowledge I did no such thing, but if you feel that I did, do explain.
Homosexual acts arent wicked,
And how do you come to that adducement? Personal opinion, yes?
and for repeating that those acts are wicked (murded and homosexuality) you continue to say that the 2 things are equaly bad,
Well I have no idea what "level" of sin each is, but I do know that they both called for capital punishment.
with that kind of statment it really shows what kind of person you are... "all gay ppl should burn in hell in eternal damnation and i wont allow them by taking their rights away"
"And I won't allow them by taking their rights away"? What???
Oh, and no one burns in hell eternally.
that's how ppl who read those comment will feel, and they will be prolly right.
You should probably read the bible again, and later in the John gospel...
Again, it was an un-named woman. Although I did make a mistake, she was not a whore.
You've apparantly mistaken tradition for fact. No where in the Bible did it ever mention, or even allude to that Mary Magdalene was the adulteress.
I didnt say it was okay, i said that Jesus was more compassionate than most seem to believe (you for example) and he loved everybody,
I have no doubt in Jesus' compassion. You seem to forget that Jesus changed people. He cast out demons, healed lepers, shew a light for the lost to find their ways to God.
Christ' compassion was to guide people away from their sin so they would not have to face righteous judgment - It was not so that there would be no righteous judgment.
as a Christian you should learn from the Christ word, instead of basing all your righteous anger toward others sexual orientation on an almost 2k yo book
It's a rare sight to see someone contradict theirselves within one sentence; you have proven that it can be done!
So you are actually saying that you are basing ur view of what is "wicked" or not on a book written not by the one who matters (Christ) instead of seeing his word through it... that's pretty smart dude...
Oh, but it was. The writers were the quill, God is the author.
I love the way you responded to my last post by not saying anything important, so i felt i would do the same...
Originally posted by reavo 5.) Equating a homosexual being born the way they are with a child molester is another old trick. A child molester goes after children. Children are not consenting adults. They don't say it's okay to have sex with me. You're just trying to use something derogatory to bring emotion into the argument. Homosexuals are in a loving consensual adult relationships. That is not what child molesters and children are doing.
In this culture that may be of what a pedophile usually is. But to truely juggle the philosophy, one must look at all cultures, past and present.
And, in past cultures, pederasty(cultural pedophilia) was a "norm" to them, was consensual(in some, maybe most), and even almost essential for the growing of child, to adulthood.
P.S. What is an adult? That as well changes for every culture.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Originally posted by ValiumSummer Originally posted by lardmouth Why not just drop marriage from govermental (federal or state) oversight? That is, no recognition of marriages by goverment agencies at any level. Boom, nothing to debate anymore.
If it were that simple I'd be all for this suggestion. But think of the tax laws that would have to be changed. how would you deal with material possessions after a divorce? There would have to be some kind of Government oversight.
I think the simplist solution would just be to allow same sex marriages or "unions" or whatever the hell you want to call them.
The world is doomed anyways. No sense in making a big stink over this.
See, I believe the whole tax system needs to be scrapped anyways. So for me, that's not an issue. As far as the possesions. Are we not talking about two (or more...) consenting adults? Why should the courts hold their hands? Everyone talks about freedoms to do this and that, but they want to bear the consequences if things go bad. Again, consenting adults here. The problem is trying to define marriage through secular notions. If you base it on consenting adults...well, that's opening it up to bisexual marriages, polygamy, etc. Heck, an entire commune based on free love and some nifty tax breaks could use the 'rights of consenting adults' arguement as precedent.
How will we close the gates on those types of marriages? What arguement will be used to deny their rights? "Only two people can be married." Who says? YOUR moral beliefs? What about thier natural instinct to have multiple partners? Is it genetic to desire more than one parter? In fact, what does human history show about the naturalness of polygamy before certain religions moved it all towardy monogamy? Are two partner marriages against human nature then? If so, does that mean we have to recognize a genetic predispition towards polygamy, such as argued here for homosexuals? Why condemn polygamists for a natural longing? Especially if all parties involved are consenting adults of sound mind. Would the arguement against these marriages be "well, 2 people is just how it's always done?" Where have we heard that before? Would the arguement be that the tax and civil laws don't mesh up well to multiple spouse marriages? I hope not, or thier arguement then is how the tax and civil laws need to be rewritten to NOT discriminate against consenting adults with a natural longing to be bound together in an alternative lifestyle marriage.
So yeah, I say just forget the whole thing. Leave it up to individuals and thier religious/secular non-govermental institutions to run these things.
Originally posted by ValiumSummer Originally posted by lardmouth Why not just drop marriage from govermental (federal or state) oversight? That is, no recognition of marriages by goverment agencies at any level. Boom, nothing to debate anymore.
If it were that simple I'd be all for this suggestion. But think of the tax laws that would have to be changed. how would you deal with material possessions after a divorce? There would have to be some kind of Government oversight.
I think the simplist solution would just be to allow same sex marriages or "unions" or whatever the hell you want to call them.
The world is doomed anyways. No sense in making a big stink over this.
See, I believe the whole tax system needs to be scrapped anyways. So for me, that's not an issue. As far as the possesions. Are we not talking about two (or more...) consenting adults? Why should the courts hold their hands? Everyone talks about freedoms to do this and that, but noone wamts to bear the consequences if things go bad. THEN, they want the government to step in. Again, consenting adults here. The problem is trying to define marriage through secular notions. If you base it on consenting adults...well, that's opening it up to bisexual marriages, polygamy, etc. Heck, an entire free love commune, after some nifty tax breaks and other marriage incentives, could use the 'rights of consenting adults' arguement as precedent.
How will we close the gates on those types of marriages? What arguement will be used to deny their rights? "Only two people can be married." Who says? YOUR moral beliefs? What about their natural instinct to have multiple partners? Is it genetic to desire more than one parter? In fact, what does human history show about the naturalness of polygamy? That is, before expanding empires imposed their own (often religiously inspired) morals and cultural norms upon other cultures. Are two partner marriages against human nature then? If so, does that mean we have to recognize a genetic predispition towards polygamy, such as argued here for homosexuals? Why condemn polygamists for a natural longing? Especially if all parties involved are consenting adults of sound mind. Would the arguement against these marriages be "well, 2 people is just how it's always done?" Where have we heard something similar before? Would the arguement be that the tax and civil laws don't mesh up well to multiple spouse marriages? I hope not, or the counter- arguement then is how the tax and civil laws need to be rewritten to NOT discriminate against consenting adults with a natural longing to be bound together in an alternative lifestyle marriage. So yeah, I say just forget the whole thing. Leave it up to individuals and their religious/secular non-govermental institutions to run these things.
And, just as a twisted mental exercise... If consenting adults is the basis of marriage, devoid of religious standards, what about consenting adult sister and brother? I know, I know, their offspring would be an issue. It could, after all, bring potential harm to a non consenting human. So, what if these marriages could only be done after a certified sterilization of one or both parties. They of course, would consent to it beforehand as a requirement for marriage by the state. Yeah, odd question. But, can it be argued why these two consenting adults (having taken measures against childbirth) shouldn't be allowed marital bliss? Using logical and secular arguements only?
hmm, btw, most of this wasn't directed towards you Valium. Was kind of "thinking at the keyboard."
Comments
I was harassed in school for being short and having red hair. So what. I just learned those guys were jerks. Their problem, not mine.
And it's not the kids who get harassed who grow up with a problem. It's the kids who do the harassing. They're the ones with issues.
I would take a good set of gay parents over a mediocre set of straight parents any day. I just want to be taught how to be decent human being and get along in society when I'm a child. And a gay couple is more than capable of doing that. The harassment at school would be more than worth it when I turn out to be a good adult.
when you're short and have red hair no type of parents will help you. Straight,gay,bi, it doesn't matter , you're screwed either way.
NOw As to the topic at hand. I don't understand why we are even discussing
homosexuality on an MMORPG site LOL! Who cares about what 2 people do in the privacy of their own bedroom, just give me an AWESOME MMORPG!
Almost all hate groups use the bible to prove their hatred is divine, from the Aryan Nation to the KKK, to Fred Phelps, etc.
The Bible can be twisted and construed into a book of hate instead of the book of redemption that it truly is. Arguging the Bible to these people is pointless. They are doing the devils work and yet their so naive, they cant even see it.
I don't see the point in Discussing this issue further on a game site. Almost every major religion says that being gay is a sin not just Christianity. Do you know that Gay people are stoned to death in the Muslim faith? Heck in the Muslim faith you are also stoned to death if you are accused of being a Christian.
The way I feel is that if the bible is right and homosexuality is a sin then when they die they will be judged accordingly as the bible says everyone will be judged and the bible also says it is not for me to judge so I wont.that is gods job.NOw if there is no god, then There is no problem now is there?
If you dont like it then dont come in here, and just because this is a gaming site does not mean we only need to discuss gaming. Did you happen to notice
"Off-Topic Discussion"
Just because you dont like something, doesnt mean it shouldnt be discussed. Or do we need to check in with you to see if you approve?
I still like hookers.....
Just because homosexuality is frowned upon by most of the worlds religions does not make them evil, but that is how they are perceived. I have many gay friends as I have said I do not judge, that is up to god to do, if there is even a god. Guess I wont find that out till the day I die. YEs this is off topic, I am just saying that any discussion on this topic is going to burst into flames. I also post on A Disney site and all threads pertaining to Homosexuality are always closed and deleted cause they always end in a flame fest. IT is known that at least 90% of Disney employees are gay and Disney even provides same sex partner benefits to it's employees, which only makes sense since 90% of their employees(cast members) are gay. All I am saying is this discussion is going to cause a lot of grief, hurt feelings and some might even be banned cause of it. There was this girl on one Disney site her name was disneyanna who was constantly saying things like all homos are going to hell and such and she got banned for it.
Trust me, I did not choose to be gay. I know that it's hard for some people to believe others think different from them or have a different life experience, but give it a try. If you want to know what gay people are going through, why not ask someone who's gay and is experiencing it rather than going by what someone standing on the outside is saying.
And you're wrong about the scientific evidence pointing towards it being a choice. There have been tons of studies that show there may be more than one reason people turn out gay. Personally, I think it may be a combination of factors. But, I don't know. All I do know is that I did not choose this. If people do choose their sexuality, then tell me when you chose to be straight.
Oh, and gay people can have sex. We don't just stare at each other and clumsily keep bumping our bodies together until we tire out and collapse. I've seen straight sex like that though.
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I still like hookers.....
Trust me, I did not choose to be gay. I know that it's hard for some people to believe others think different from them or have a different life experience, but give it a try. If you want to know what gay people are going through, why not ask someone who's gay and is experiencing it rather than going by what someone standing on the outside is saying.
And you're wrong about the scientific evidence pointing towards it being a choice. There have been tons of studies that show there may be more than one reason people turn out gay. Personally, I think it may be a combination of factors. But, I don't know. All I do know is that I did not choose this. If people do choose their sexuality, then tell me when you chose to be straight.
Oh, and gay people can have sex. We don't just stare at each other and clumsily keep bumping our bodies together until we tire out and collapse. I've seen straight sex like that though.
Well Research does not prove or disprove anything as they have not found what causes homosexuality, no hormone no nothing so to this date everything is speculation.I knew this was going to cause hard feelings and even hurt feelings. *shakes head*
There are gay animals.
I think homosexuality is genetic and perfectly natural and normal, and healthy.
Religions have been trying to make humans something they are not for thousands of years, it isn't going to work! honestly I would have thought they would have got the message by now.
Maybe we will all become sexless perfect sinless angels when we die, but until then why doesn't religeon focus on things that can be changed, like corruption and poverty etc
Anyway I know a lot of religous people are ok, so I am not starting on them, just the ones who for some reason cannot help themselves from telling other people how to live their own lives, when they are not hurting anybody.
Trust me, I did not choose to be gay. I know that it's hard for some people to believe others think different from them or have a different life experience, but give it a try. If you want to know what gay people are going through, why not ask someone who's gay and is experiencing it rather than going by what someone standing on the outside is saying.
And you're wrong about the scientific evidence pointing towards it being a choice. There have been tons of studies that show there may be more than one reason people turn out gay. Personally, I think it may be a combination of factors. But, I don't know. All I do know is that I did not choose this. If people do choose their sexuality, then tell me when you chose to be straight.
Oh, and gay people can have sex. We don't just stare at each other and clumsily keep bumping our bodies together until we tire out and collapse. I've seen straight sex like that though.
Well Research does not prove or disprove anything as they have not found what causes homosexuality, no hormone no nothing so to this date everything is speculation.I knew this was going to cause hard feelings and even hurt feelings. *shakes head*
My research, being myself going through it, has proven to me that I didn't choose to be this way. I have tried to be straight. I can't. I don't have that capacity to fall in love with a girl. It's just not there.
And I'm not hurt at all. Don't have any hard feelings either. It's okay.
I know some people don't understand me. I also know that there are
more people in the world every day that are learning about what makes
us tick. And I trust that love, compassion, and the facts will win out in the end.
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And I haven't gotten one single health problem from being gay. People get sexually transmitted diseases from being irresponsible sexually. Straight people and gay people get them. Most straight women have been exposed to the HPV virus that causes cirvical cancer when they get older. Does that mean that straight sex is wrong? And it's straight men that are giving it to them.
And if you're referring to AIDS then you need to be able to apply that rule to all situations. Which, if you look at the AIDS rate in Africa and who mostly has it there, that rule doesn't apply anymore. So you'd be basing that on anectdotal evidence.
Sexually responsible people, straight and gay, have the same chance at catching an STD. If you choose to act irresponsibly then that's going to catch up with you no matter what sexual orientation you are.
I think you've been given some bunk info. I'm telling you right now that I did not choose to be gay. If you refuse to believe that, then you're just closing your eyes to what you don't want to see. You living your life with that narrow minded perspective is a choice. If you want to be honest about choices we make, then there ya go.
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Naldric, I don't think he's here to get the facts. Good post though. It's just one piece of data that shows these people are wrong and don't want to face up to it.
Just look at his name. LickyDickyoo. He's obviously created an account to troll and flame.
And look at his sig. He wants to state he loves hookers and then talk about homosexuals catching diseases?!?!?! He's obviously a big thinker.
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Just because homosexuality is frowned upon by most of the worlds religions does not make them evil, but that is how they are perceived. I have many gay friends as I have said I do not judge, that is up to god to do, if there is even a god. Guess I wont find that out till the day I die. YEs this is off topic, I am just saying that any discussion on this topic is going to burst into flames. I also post on A Disney site and all threads pertaining to Homosexuality are always closed and deleted cause they always end in a flame fest. IT is known that at least 90% of Disney employees are gay and Disney even provides same sex partner benefits to it's employees, which only makes sense since 90% of their employees(cast members) are gay. All I am saying is this discussion is going to cause a lot of grief, hurt feelings and some might even be banned cause of it. There was this girl on one Disney site her name was disneyanna who was constantly saying things like all homos are going to hell and such and she got banned for it.
Just because peoples feelings might be hurt, and people might be banned, lets not talk about it? Lets not talk about anything then thats controversial because, well, people might be upset? I'm sorry but you need to do alot better than that. Passionate discussion and argument is what this couintry was founded on. A Clash of ideas, that over time filter out the good ideas from the bad ones.
Not discussing something just because it may bring out the worst in people is simply the dumbest form of censorship that exists. Sure it may bring out the worst in people, but it also can bring out the best. Frankly, anyone who says
"I dont like this topic so it should be closed"
Has little understanding or respect for democracy and freedom of speech, especially using a flimsy excuse and reason that goes along the lines of "peoples feelings might be hurt"
There is nothing wrong with you being a gay, it in no way means that you are a bad person, my position is that the gay life style is wrong, there is plenty of facts and evidence to back that up all you have to do is reserch into the health concerns that are direct results of it. As well my position is also that gay people chose to be gay, they are not born gay, they are not made gay, they pick that life style for themselves and that is what they want, that is my position due to the fact that there is no evidence at all proving that it is anything else other then a choice. Without there being any evidence what so ever of this being something that people are born with the plain simple truth from that is that the person picks it for themselves to live that kind of life. As far as the other person there is concerned who says he has evidence I did take a look at it and there is nothing there at all that even comes remotly close to proving a thing, so sorry but no cigar.
This is the problem with gays and people who support them, as soon as you say that you do not agree with there life style and you have you own opions all of a sudden you are a person who hates gays. As I have stated before I do not hate a person becuase they are gay, as I have said before they deserve respect like anyone else, but I do not agree with there life style it is wrong and it is unhealthy and not natural at all the facts prove that without a doubt, and also I do not go along with this theory that they are born gay due to the fact that there is no such evidence at all.
As far as gays are concerned in the end it does not matter what anyone thinks it is popular to accept gays for who they are and to accept there life style this is very evident in everything it is taguht in school,s that it is a prefectly normal thing to be gay you are born that way they do teach that actually which is funny since they dont have anything to actually teach tgo prove it but that does not matter in the end. Gays are very much accepted in society today, however I feel that it should be of some note that since gays feel that they are born with this condition that it is okay then and that there life style is normal and fine, I can live with that really. But if they are born with this situation were they are gay, then what if a person decided to have 5 wives and childern to all women, most people would consider that sick, however it is an alternative life style and who are you or I to say that they are not born with that inbreed need to live that way. Or what if someone really likes kids, likes to touch them and molest them, is that also very very sick, but then again who are you or I to say that person is not born with a condition that makes them have that need that urge to do that, as far as anyone else is concerned that is also just another alternative life style that is left up to science. In all of these cases as sick as some of them are, in the end who is to say that these are not true, and if they are, then how can we really say that this is all wrong.
I still like hookers.....
1.) Nobody said you hated gays. And just because you disagree with their lifestyle most people don't assume you hate gays. That's something that you're making up. At least from this thread, I haven't seen anyone say that you hate gays. Including Upallnight, who is gay himself. So I'm not sure where you got that from.
2.) You say there is no proof that gays are born that way so you don't believe it. Well, then prove that they're not. I know that is in most cases a lame argument, but in this case I don't think it is. And I'll tell you why. Because you are not considering the statements made by the people going through it. You're taking their stories and totally disregarding them. If Upallnight says he was born that way and didn't make the decision to be gay, then why don't you believe him. Why would anyone choose to be gay anyhow? Have you thought about that. And Upallnight has made the statement on these boards that he wouldn't be gay if he could change it. So, what. Does he just wake up one day and decide he likes trim all of a sudden. I don't think it works quite that way. That's about as silly as me waking up one day and deciding I want to chase men. Why do you discredit gay peoples stories?
3.) Both gay and straight lifestyles have the risk for you to contract sexually transmitted diseases. You ignored what Upallnight told you. If a gay man is responsible about his sexual acitvities his chances of contracting a sexually transmitted disease are no more than yours. And dare I say that if it weren't for AIDS, then even without using a condom a gay mans chances of catching an STD would be about the same. Don't use the AIDS virus as a means to prove your point. That's a new disease. Once a cure or a vaccination for AIDS is found, what disease are you going to point to then?
4.) Saying gay acceptance will lead to polygamy being accepted is an old trick. But since you brought up the point, if a group of adults want to live in a polygamous relationship, then why shouldn't they have the right? I may not agree with it, but they're consenting adults. I believe in their freedom to do whatever they want.
5.) Equating a homosexual being born the way they are with a child molester is another old trick. A child molester goes after children. Children are not consenting adults. They don't say it's okay to have sex with me. You're just trying to use something derogatory to bring emotion into the argument. Homosexuals are in a loving consensual adult relationships. That is not what child molesters and children are doing.
Now if you want to pick those apart go ahead. But please don't ignore the points I made like you did Upallnights. You just restated what you already said. Take the points one by one and address the issues I brought up with facts.
If it were that simple I'd be all for this suggestion. But think of the tax laws that would have to be changed. how would you deal with material possessions after a divorce? There would have to be some kind of Government oversight.
I think the simplist solution would just be to allow same sex marriages or "unions" or whatever the hell you want to call them.
The world is doomed anyways. No sense in making a big stink over this.
oh yeah, it was so consensual that they could be set free in the case of being blinded by the owner for example...
I said sometimes.
Strange, as you say that Jesus came to fullfill the old rules, but for the rulez that dont interest you, you say, those things were done away,
It has nothing to do with what interests me or not. If you disbelieve my account, look it up in the Bible yourself; I gave you the scripture.
that was my whole point talking about Maria Madalena, but you just dissected it and took it out of context... of course...
To my knowledge I did no such thing, but if you feel that I did, do explain.
Homosexual acts arent wicked,
And how do you come to that adducement? Personal opinion, yes?
and for repeating that those acts are wicked (murded and homosexuality) you continue to say that the 2 things are equaly bad,
Well I have no idea what "level" of sin each is, but I do know that they both called for capital punishment.
with that kind of statment it really shows what kind of person you are... "all gay ppl should burn in hell in eternal damnation and i wont allow them by taking their rights away"
"And I won't allow them by taking their rights away"? What???
Oh, and no one burns in hell eternally.
that's how ppl who read those comment will feel, and they will be prolly right.
You should probably read the bible again, and later in the John gospel...
Again, it was an un-named woman. Although I did make a mistake, she was not a whore.
You've apparantly mistaken tradition for fact. No where in the Bible did it ever mention, or even allude to that Mary Magdalene was the adulteress.
I didnt say it was okay, i said that Jesus was more compassionate than most seem to believe (you for example) and he loved everybody,
I have no doubt in Jesus' compassion. You seem to forget that Jesus changed people. He cast out demons, healed lepers, shew a light for the lost to find their ways to God.
Christ' compassion was to guide people away from their sin so they would not have to face righteous judgment - It was not so that there would be no righteous judgment.
as a Christian you should learn from the Christ word, instead of basing all your righteous anger toward others sexual orientation on an almost 2k yo book
It's a rare sight to see someone contradict theirselves within one sentence; you have proven that it can be done!
So you are actually saying that you are basing ur view of what is "wicked" or not on a book written not by the one who matters (Christ) instead of seeing his word through it... that's pretty smart dude...
Oh, but it was. The writers were the quill, God is the author.
I love the way you responded to my last post by not saying anything important, so i felt i would do the same...
In this culture that may be of what a pedophile usually is. But to truely juggle the philosophy, one must look at all cultures, past and present.
And, in past cultures, pederasty(cultural pedophilia) was a "norm" to them, was consensual(in some, maybe most), and even almost essential for the growing of child, to adulthood.
P.S. What is an adult? That as well changes for every culture.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
If it were that simple I'd be all for this suggestion. But think of the tax laws that would have to be changed. how would you deal with material possessions after a divorce? There would have to be some kind of Government oversight.
I think the simplist solution would just be to allow same sex marriages or "unions" or whatever the hell you want to call them.
The world is doomed anyways. No sense in making a big stink over this.
See, I believe the whole tax system needs to be scrapped anyways. So for me, that's not an issue. As far as the possesions. Are we not talking about two (or more...) consenting adults? Why should the courts hold their hands? Everyone talks about freedoms to do this and that, but they want to bear the consequences if things go bad. Again, consenting adults here. The problem is trying to define marriage through secular notions. If you base it on consenting adults...well, that's opening it up to bisexual marriages, polygamy, etc. Heck, an entire commune based on free love and some nifty tax breaks could use the 'rights of consenting adults' arguement as precedent.
How will we close the gates on those types of marriages? What arguement will be used to deny their rights? "Only two people can be married." Who says? YOUR moral beliefs? What about thier natural instinct to have multiple partners? Is it genetic to desire more than one parter? In fact, what does human history show about the naturalness of polygamy before certain religions moved it all towardy monogamy? Are two partner marriages against human nature then? If so, does that mean we have to recognize a genetic predispition towards polygamy, such as argued here for homosexuals? Why condemn polygamists for a natural longing? Especially if all parties involved are consenting adults of sound mind. Would the arguement against these marriages be "well, 2 people is just how it's always done?" Where have we heard that before? Would the arguement be that the tax and civil laws don't mesh up well to multiple spouse marriages? I hope not, or thier arguement then is how the tax and civil laws need to be rewritten to NOT discriminate against consenting adults with a natural longing to be bound together in an alternative lifestyle marriage.
So yeah, I say just forget the whole thing. Leave it up to individuals and thier religious/secular non-govermental institutions to run these things.
If it were that simple I'd be all for this suggestion. But think of the tax laws that would have to be changed. how would you deal with material possessions after a divorce? There would have to be some kind of Government oversight.
I think the simplist solution would just be to allow same sex marriages or "unions" or whatever the hell you want to call them.
The world is doomed anyways. No sense in making a big stink over this.
See, I believe the whole tax system needs to be scrapped anyways. So for me, that's not an issue. As far as the possesions. Are we not talking about two (or more...) consenting adults? Why should the courts hold their hands? Everyone talks about freedoms to do this and that, but noone wamts to bear the consequences if things go bad. THEN, they want the government to step in. Again, consenting adults here. The problem is trying to define marriage through secular notions. If you base it on consenting adults...well, that's opening it up to bisexual marriages, polygamy, etc. Heck, an entire free love commune, after some nifty tax breaks and other marriage incentives, could use the 'rights of consenting adults' arguement as precedent.
How will we close the gates on those types of marriages? What arguement will be used to deny their rights? "Only two people can be married." Who says? YOUR moral beliefs? What about their natural instinct to have multiple partners? Is it genetic to desire more than one parter? In fact, what does human history show about the naturalness of polygamy? That is, before expanding empires imposed their own (often religiously inspired) morals and cultural norms upon other cultures. Are two partner marriages against human nature then? If so, does that mean we have to recognize a genetic predispition towards polygamy, such as argued here for homosexuals? Why condemn polygamists for a natural longing? Especially if all parties involved are consenting adults of sound mind. Would the arguement against these marriages be "well, 2 people is just how it's always done?" Where have we heard something similar before? Would the arguement be that the tax and civil laws don't mesh up well to multiple spouse marriages? I hope not, or the counter- arguement then is how the tax and civil laws need to be rewritten to NOT discriminate against consenting adults with a natural longing to be bound together in an alternative lifestyle marriage. So yeah, I say just forget the whole thing. Leave it up to individuals and their religious/secular non-govermental institutions to run these things.
And, just as a twisted mental exercise... If consenting adults is the basis of marriage, devoid of religious standards, what about consenting adult sister and brother? I know, I know, their offspring would be an issue. It could, after all, bring potential harm to a non consenting human. So, what if these marriages could only be done after a certified sterilization of one or both parties. They of course, would consent to it beforehand as a requirement for marriage by the state. Yeah, odd question. But, can it be argued why these two consenting adults (having taken measures against childbirth) shouldn't be allowed marital bliss? Using logical and secular arguements only?
hmm, btw, most of this wasn't directed towards you Valium. Was kind of "thinking at the keyboard."