Originally posted by Shoal A subscriptions to SOE "All Access Pass" is a paid subscription to SWG, EQ2, PS, MO, and so forth, even if the 'subscriber' never plays the game.
That's why to a certain extent even SOE sort of doesn't know how many subscribers these games actually have.
Originally posted by Chessack Originally posted by Shoal A subscriptions to SOE "All Access Pass" is a paid subscription to SWG, EQ2, PS, MO, and so forth, even if the 'subscriber' never plays the game.
That's why to a certain extent even SOE sort of doesn't know how many subscribers these games actually have.
C
That is also why measuring the number subscribers is not a reliable measure. Release the number of concurrent players over time is much more meaningful. Also, knowing how often a population of players logs in over time (ie how many accounts log in at least 1 time a day, 1 every 2 days, ... 1 once a week, etc). Those types of numbers are much more meaningful to measuing the success of a game than subscriptions.
Subscriptions are mainly useful to bean counters and executives who are only focused on the companies revenue.
Originally posted by xPaladin On the fanboy side, well, empirical evidence that is just that -- hearsay, at best. To say the game is doing better because there are more people in Mos Eisley at 2:00pm on server X is no different than any other statement to the contrary.
First of all, let's not reduce the level of discourse here to internet yelling. Calling someone a fanboy just because they defend the NGE is to disregard their argument entirely. I'm not a fanboy. I recognize that SWG has its faults, as it always has, and freely admit to them. I defend the game before I enjoy playing it, but I don't enjoy playing only it. In fact, I just got through with a marathon run of Heroes of Might and Magic V. As long as you make this argument about us vs them, rather than two sides with merit, you'll just build up resentment and end up looking like a shallow fool.
Second, I have never misrepresented my claims on the game when I say that population has increased. I have repeatedly stated that this is based on personal experience playing almost daily for the past month on the Ahazi server. There are quantifiably more players actively on Ahazi, every day at every hour of the day, now than when I started playing seriously just before publish 28. Yes, there is a certain amount of assuming going on - namely that if the population is visibly increasing on Ahazi that it must be on other servers, or at the very least, not be decreasing, in order for the net gain to be positive. I do not consider this an absurd assumption, especially not in light of those saying that there are 200,000 vets waiting for a preCU server.
Personally, I could say that DAoC is "on the rise" but I have absolutely no base to say anything like that.
But I do have a base. It is not enough to judge absolutes, like the subscriber base, but it is enough to just relatives - as in how many people are playing on a server today relative to a month ago. You can measure growth, but only growth. Not the size of that growth, nor the sustainability of that growth, but you can say, yes, relative to before, the population is on the rise.
The best I can say is that I'm having a good time playing and relate my positive experiences to anyone that asks.
I say that as well.
If it seems to you like there's more people in SWG, that's great -- however, it's not a genuine fact that indicates whether the game is more alive or not, as hard as that may be to believe.
It doesn't "seem" like there are more players. There are more. Quantifiably. I play everyday and consistantly did a /who at major population locations. Whereas before, there would be 8 people at Theed on a week day afternoon, there are now 32+. I've actually stopped doing /who's because most major locations truncate the who list, making it impossible for me to see further growth easily. When it says 32+ today and 32+ tomorrow, I can't tell anything. But it didn't. It said 8 a month ago and 32+ today, repeatably.
A game can have, say, 150,000 subs and perhaps 2000 players on each server at peak times, but say, that game only has 8 servers. Another game can have the same 150,000 subs, but only one server (like EVE) so there are say 15,000 people playing at any one moment.
I make no claims on the greater population of the game other than it is growing. I can't say what the population was, is, or will be, only that there are a larger number of active players consistently online compared to a month ago. I'm not really sure how many different ways I can say that.
Once again, for the record here. The only way to prove or disprove the game's health is to do a little statistics on all servers over a period of time. Not even very complex stuff either, just simple calculations and algorithms. I've thrown the challenge out previously, and nobody's bitten. Until something like this happens, nobody on either side of the fence has a leg to stand on.
No, that's the only way to prove or disprove the game's absolute population. Health can be derived from several factors, many relative. If the game is losing vets faster than it is gaining newbies, it doesn't matter what the absolute numbers are. The game is failing. I make no claims on that either. All I'm saying is that you will accept only the full population numbers as some sort of proof, but that's not something we'll ever have. Luckily, that's not the only measure by which we can judge things.
I have no personal investment here. I played SWG when it had a few hundred thousand players and when it had considerably less. Whether you play the game or not will not affect me or my enjoyment of the game. I argue here because I hate pushy forums that tell me I'm wrong for liking something, and because I like arguing on the internet. You, on the otherhand, want the game to fail and will selectively pick and choose your evidence as you see fit. You aren't thinking it through properly about what is and what isn't evidence or what is and what isn't important. You have a conclusion that you are trying to build to. It's like an argument between a scientist and creationist. You'll believe whatever the hell you want to believe regardless of quantifiable facts. What I have a problem with is that just because you do it doesn't give you the right to go around acusing others of it without justification.
Anyway, on a personal note, I'll admit that I'm absolutely baffled about your posting methodology, Squidi. You seem to fail to realize that both ends of the spectrum want the same goal -- a better SWG.
That's not entirely true. Some here want SWG to die. Some here want to blame me for playing the game. Some want to blame me for enjoying it. And most just want to bitch and complain about things they have no control over.
I have no issues with people who want a better SWG, except those who somehow thing preCU is a magic bullet that will save starving kids in Africa. A better SWG comes from understanding what the game is and will be, and how to achieve those goals. Not throwing temper tantrums and shouting "rollback rollback" over and over on the SWG forums until you get banned.
If people here want to have a better SWG - and I'm talking better, not preCU - then I'd LOVE to have that discussion. But I haven't yet had one of those discussions. It's all been about subscribers and how SOE killed their grandma and other bullshit.
I think you should cool your jets a bit and be more like Obraik -- even though I find him a bit snooty at times, he does much more to positively promote the game than you do.
My interest is not in promoting the game. Like I said, I'd play it if there were 10 people on just as well as if there were 100,000. My interest is attacking back at the people who call me names because I honestly enjoy the NGE and don't think preCU was rainbows and sunshine. I was there, remember, and I'm more than capable of making my own informed opinions on such matter without needing to have 12 year olds with self esteem issues getting upset because I disagree with them about a freaking videogame. You take your issues out on me. I'm taking my issues out on you. The difference is, my issues ARE you.
Seriously man, your posts for the last week or two have been really nothing but raw flamebait. Once in a while, a little flamebait is okay, but every other post from you is knocking on vets. Guess what, mate -- in 6 months or a year, you'll be one of the vets you're bashing!
What are you talking about? I was there at launch day. I am a vet - more so than most of those who want preCU back. I knock on liars and bullies. I'm not the one that claims they are vets. They do.
And you might even become one of these "flamers" if, within the next year, SOE should happen to eliminate key aspects of the gameplay you currently enjoy and openly admit disregard for you as a customer.
That would not be likely, as I have this amazing ability to get over things. SOE changes a game I like in a way I don't, I'll go play something else.
Please keep in mind, a lot of these vets have a right to be angry with SOE. Just as much right as you do to enjoy SWG regardless.
But they don't have the right to insult me because I play the game. They don't have the right to attack me because I like the game. And it was six months ago. Whatever anger they had a right to, and I admit they did at the time, has turned into a bitter spiteful grudge that is contributing nothing. It just attacks people who have different opinions, trolls forum after forum looking for people to take frustrations out on, and attacking people in unfair, ugly, and pathetic manners who don't deserve it. If you want to be angry, be angry. But don't take it out on me. This entire forum is like an abusive alcoholic father who is angry at getting laid off so beats his son into the hospital. It's time to wake up and realize that YOUR problems are not OUR problems, so stop trying to hurt the rest of us over a damn videogame.
Originally posted by Shoal A subscriptions to SOE "All Access Pass" is a paid subscription to SWG, EQ2, PS, MO, and so forth, even if the 'subscriber' never plays the game. Usuall SOE BS. They lie to the customer base and everyone else all the time to make themselves look better in the marketplace.
You need the retail box of the game to even play it and if you read thru sirbruce's site he often states he does not want to take in account all access users
First of all, let's not reduce the level of discourse here to internet yelling. Calling someone a fanboy just because they defend the NGE is to disregard their argument entirely. I'm not a fanboy. I recognize that SWG has its faults, as it always has, and freely admit to them. I defend the game before I enjoy playing it, but I don't enjoy playing only it. In fact, I just got through with a marathon run of Heroes of Might and Magic V. As long as you make this argument about us vs them, rather than two sides with merit, you'll just build up resentment and end up looking like a shallow fool.
Second, I have never misrepresented my claims on the game when I say that population has increased. I have repeatedly stated that this is based on personal experience playing almost daily for the past month on the Ahazi server. There are quantifiably more players actively on Ahazi, every day at every hour of the day, now than when I started playing seriously just before publish 28. Yes, there is a certain amount of assuming going on - namely that if the population is visibly increasing on Ahazi that it must be on other servers, or at the very least, not be decreasing, in order for the net gain to be positive. I do not consider this an absurd assumption, especially not in light of those saying that there are 200,000 vets waiting for a preCU server.
But I do have a base. It is not enough to judge absolutes, like the subscriber base, but it is enough to just relatives - as in how many people are playing on a server today relative to a month ago. You can measure growth, but only growth. Not the size of that growth, nor the sustainability of that growth, but you can say, yes, relative to before, the population is on the rise.
It doesn't "seem" like there are more players. There are more. Quantifiably. I play everyday and consistantly did a /who at major population locations. Whereas before, there would be 8 people at Theed on a week day afternoon, there are now 32+. I've actually stopped doing /who's because most major locations truncate the who list, making it impossible for me to see further growth easily. When it says 32+ today and 32+ tomorrow, I can't tell anything. But it didn't. It said 8 a month ago and 32+ today, repeatably.
I make no claims on the greater population of the game other than it is growing. I can't say what the population was, is, or will be, only that there are a larger number of active players consistently online compared to a month ago. I'm not really sure how many different ways I can say that.
No, that's the only way to prove or disprove the game's absolute population. Health can be derived from several factors, many relative. If the game is losing vets faster than it is gaining newbies, it doesn't matter what the absolute numbers are. The game is failing. I make no claims on that either. All I'm saying is that you will accept only the full population numbers as some sort of proof, but that's not something we'll ever have. Luckily, that's not the only measure by which we can judge things.
I have no personal investment here. I played SWG when it had a few hundred thousand players and when it had considerably less. Whether you play the game or not will not affect me or my enjoyment of the game. I argue here because I hate pushy forums that tell me I'm wrong for liking something, and because I like arguing on the internet. You, on the otherhand, want the game to fail and will selectively pick and choose your evidence as you see fit. You aren't thinking it through properly about what is and what isn't evidence or what is and what isn't important. You have a conclusion that you are trying to build to. It's like an argument between a scientist and creationist. You'll believe whatever the hell you want to believe regardless of quantifiable facts. What I have a problem with is that just because you do it doesn't give you the right to go around acusing others of it without justification.
My interest is not in promoting the game. Like I said, I'd play it if there were 10 people on just as well as if there were 100,000. My interest is attacking back at the people who call me names because I honestly enjoy the NGE and don't think preCU was rainbows and sunshine. I was there, remember, and I'm more than capable of making my own informed opinions on such matter without needing to have 12 year olds with self esteem issues getting upset because I disagree with them about a freaking videogame. You take your issues out on me. I'm taking my issues out on you. The difference is, my issues ARE you.
But they don't have the right to insult me because I play the game. They don't have the right to attack me because I like the game. And it was six months ago. Whatever anger they had a right to, and I admit they did at the time, has turned into a bitter spiteful grudge that is contributing nothing. It just attacks people who have different opinions, trolls forum after forum looking for people to take frustrations out on, and attacking people in unfair, ugly, and pathetic manners who don't deserve it. If you want to be angry, be angry. But don't take it out on me. This entire forum is like an abusive alcoholic father who is angry at getting laid off so beats his son into the hospital. It's time to wake up and realize that YOUR problems are not OUR problems, so stop trying to hurt the rest of us over a damn videogame.
Humorous. I highlighted the particularly interesting morsels. I think you managed to backtalk yourself at least 8 times during that whole post.
I had a nice little writeup but stopped mid-way, and with good reason (red quote). Its nice to know for fact why you're really posting and needlessly inciting further flames sometimes -- you obviously get off on it. I'm sure any judge (or moderator) would tell you that punching back later because they punched earlier isn't going to hold up as a valid excuse for flaming. Even so, you're NOT as innocent as you claim to be, and you bloody well know it. I've seen you assault posters on other threads that didn't even involve you. You seem to want to start fights sometimes.
Anyway, one part of my reply I'll include anyway (for your education) is that your definition of quantifiable is downright laughable. Sorry to sound condescending, but I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. So for your convenience and education, I'll link wikipedia's article on statistics for you. A short version: one data point (yours) is not "quantifiable evidence." Twenty such opinions? Maybe, but that's a tiny "n value." A hundred or a thousand? Now you're talking! Furthermore, you said that statistics will provide absolutes. Unfortunately, statistics won't necessarily give you absolutes as you claim, because (for starters, there's a very long list here) statistics are all dependant on sample sizes, of which, SWG's are unknown. If statistics did give absolutes, then the NGE would be a rip-roaring success and this forum would be one happy place like the other SOE game forums on MMORPG.com.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz] AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
Originally posted by Squidi Originally posted by xPaladin On the fanboy side, well, empirical evidence that is just that -- hearsay, at best. To say the game is doing better because there are more people in Mos Eisley at 2:00pm on server X is no different than any other statement to the contrary.
First of all, let's not reduce the level of discourse here to internet yelling. Calling someone a fanboy just because they defend the
I see, it is okay for you to call people names, but it isn't okay for for anyone else to do it? That seems, well, hypocritical.
NGE is to disregard their argument entirely. I'm not a fanboy. I recognize that SWG has its faults, as it always has, and freely admit to them. I defend the game before I enjoy playing it, but I
Given that you like to call people names, then it follows we should dismiss anything you hyave to say.
don't enjoy playing only it. In fact, I just got through with a marathon run of Heroes of Might and Magic V. As long as you make this argument about us vs them, rather than two sides with merit, you'll just build up resentment and end up looking like a shallow fool.
I see, so again, your position is there is only one side, your side. And since you know better than all of us, we should give in and follow your rules and support your positions?
Second, I have never misrepresented my claims on the game when I say that population has increased. I have repeatedly stated that
I see, but your not denying you have misrepresented information in the past? So, just because you haven't misrepresented the population grown (getting your data from where, I wonder?) but you have, on occasion, misrepresented other things we should still believe you?
this is based on personal experience playing almost daily for the past month on the Ahazi server. There are quantifiably more
If it is "quantifiable", what is your method? Where do you get your data?
Scientific method is actually not about personal observation and most scientists and statisticians would dispute your sumation as being unreliable at best.
players actively on Ahazi, every day at every hour of the day, now than when I started playing seriously just before publish 28. Yes, there is a certain amount of assuming going on - namely that if the population is visibly increasing on Ahazi that it must be on
A single observation unrepeated by other observers hardly qualifies as "quantifiable".
other servers, or at the very least, not be decreasing, in order for the net gain to be positive. I do not consider this an absurd assumption, especially not in light of those saying that there are 200,000 vets waiting for a preCU server.
Personally, I could say that DAoC is "on the rise" but I have absolutely no base to say anything like that.
But I do have a base. It is not enough to judge absolutes, like the subscriber base, but it is enough to just relatives - as in how many people are playing on a server today relative to a month ago. You can measure growth, but only growth. Not the size of that growth, nor the sustainability of that growth, but you can say, yes, relative to before, the population is on the rise.
Again, were are you getting the data so others of us may reproduce your findings? It is not enough to state a case that some thing is, when you cannot provide an objective basis for your opinion. And currently, that is all you continue to state, is an opinion.
The best I can say is that I'm having a good time playing and relate my positive experiences to anyone that asks.
I say that as well.
If it seems to you like there's more people in SWG, that's great -- however, it's not a genuine fact that indicates whether the game is more alive or not, as hard as that may be to believe.
It doesn't "seem" like there are more players. There are more. Quantifiably. I play everyday and consistantly did a /who at major
Again, were have you collected this data? What method did you use to collect the data? What historical norms are you comparing to? I see claims that offer little more than opinion.
population locations. Whereas before, there would be 8 people at Theed on a week day afternoon, there are now 32+. I've actually
One server, one city and you claim this is proof?
stopped doing /who's because most major locations truncate the who list, making it impossible for me to see further growth easily. When it says 32+ today and 32+ tomorrow, I can't tell anything. But it didn't. It said 8 a month ago and 32+ today, repeatably.
A game can have, say, 150,000 subs and perhaps 2000 players on each server at peak times, but say, that game only has 8 servers. Another game can have the same 150,000 subs, but only one server (like EVE) so there are say 15,000 people playing at any one moment.
I make no claims on the greater population of the game other than it is growing. I can't say what the population was, is, or will
But yet you claim the population increase is "quantifiable". But, this is just saying your opinion is the game is growing. It provides no data to support your claim.
be, only that there are a larger number of active players consistently online compared to a month ago. I'm not really sure how many different ways I can say that.
Once again, for the record here. The only way to prove or disprove the game's health is to do a little statistics on all servers over a period of time. Not even very complex stuff either, just simple calculations and algorithms. I've thrown the challenge out previously, and nobody's bitten. Until something like this happens, nobody on either side of the fence has a leg to stand on.
No, that's the only way to prove or disprove the game's absolute population. Health can be derived from several factors, many
For you to be believed, several methods need to be applied, not just the one of your choosing. That is how real studies that stand the test of time are done.
relative. If the game is losing vets faster than it is gaining newbies, it doesn't matter what the absolute numbers are. The game is failing. I make no claims on that either. All I'm saying is that you will accept only the full population numbers as some sort of proof, but that's not something we'll ever have. Luckily, that's not the only measure by which we can judge things.
I have no personal investment here. I played SWG when it had a few hundred thousand players and when it had considerably less. Whether you play the game or not will not affect me or my enjoyment of the game. I argue here because I hate pushy forums that tell me I'm wrong for liking something, and because I like arguing on the internet. You, on the otherhand, want the game to fail and will selectively pick and choose your evidence as you see fit. You aren't thinking it through properly about what is and what isn't evidence or what is and what isn't important. You have a conclusion that you are trying to build to. It's like an argument between a scientist and creationist. You'll believe whatever the hell you want to believe regardless of quantifiable facts. What I have a problem with is that just because you do it doesn't give you the right to go around acusing others of it without justification.
Anyway, on a personal note, I'll admit that I'm absolutely baffled about your posting methodology, Squidi. You seem to fail to realize that both ends of the spectrum want the same goal -- a better SWG.
That's not entirely true. Some here want SWG to die. Some here want to blame me for playing the game. Some want to blame me for enjoying it. And most just want to bitch and complain about things they have no control over.
I certainly want the game to be sunset. I have made no secret of that. And if you enjoy the game, so be it. But do not dismiss my opinion that the game is worthless so that other potential customers can see what most poeple think of SOE and SW:G. And frankly, most do not think much of the game nor the company. And that sir, is quantifable.
I have no issues with people who want a better SWG, except those who somehow thing preCU is a magic bullet that will save starving kids in Africa. A better SWG comes from understanding what the game is and will be, and how to achieve those goals. Not throwing temper tantrums and shouting "rollback rollback" over and over on the SWG forums until you get banned.
People want to have a better game based on the preCU engine, not the WoW model that SOE is despreately trying to copy.
If people here want to have a better SWG - and I'm talking better, not preCU - then I'd LOVE to have that discussion. But I haven't yet had one of those discussions. It's all been about subscribers and how SOE killed their grandma and other bullshit.
You never want to have a discussion. You want to tell people how and what to think.
I think you should cool your jets a bit and be more like Obraik -- even though I find him a bit snooty at times, he does much more to positively promote the game than you do.
My interest is not in promoting the game. Like I said, I'd play it if there were 10 people on just as well as if there were 100,000. My interest is attacking back at the people who call me names
I have never called you names. But, you, have in fact, called me names on more than one occasion. I can also quantify how many times you have called people names.
because I honestly enjoy the NGE and don't think preCU was rainbows and sunshine. I was there, remember, and I'm more than capable of making my own informed opinions on such matter without needing to have 12 year olds with self esteem issues getting upset because I disagree with them about a freaking videogame. You take your issues out on me. I'm taking my issues out on you. The difference is, my issues ARE you.
Seriously man, your posts for the last week or two have been really nothing but raw flamebait. Once in a while, a little flamebait is okay, but every other post from you is knocking on vets. Guess what, mate -- in 6 months or a year, you'll be one of the vets you're bashing!
What are you talking about? I was there at launch day. I am a vet - more so than most of those who want preCU back. I knock on liars and bullies. I'm not the one that claims they are vets. They do.
And you might even become one of these "flamers" if, within the next year, SOE should happen to eliminate key aspects of the gameplay you currently enjoy and openly admit disregard for you as a customer.
That would not be likely, as I have this amazing ability to get over things. SOE changes a game I like in a way I don't, I'll go play something else.
Please keep in mind, a lot of these vets have a right to be angry with SOE. Just as much right as you do to enjoy SWG regardless.
But they don't have the right to insult me because I play the game. They don't have the right to attack me because I like the game. And it was six months ago. Whatever anger they had a right to, and I admit they did at the time, has turned into a bitter spiteful grudge that is contributing nothing. It just attacks people who have different opinions, trolls forum after forum looking for people to take frustrations out on, and attacking people in unfair, ugly, and pathetic manners who don't deserve it. If you want to be angry, be angry. But don't take it out on me. This entire forum is like an abusive alcoholic father who is angry at getting laid off so beats his son into the hospital. It's time to wake up and realize that YOUR problems are not OUR problems, so stop trying to hurt the rest of us over a damn videogame.
You know, the best arguments are normally concise. Concise arguments naturally lead to precise arguments. This thread has clearly gone all over the map.
Squidi, at the end of the day, 300,000+ cancelations are what prove you wrong. And that is quantifiable.
Originally posted by Squidi Originally posted by Clackamas Squidi, at the end of the day, 300,000+ cancelations are what prove you wrong. And that is quantifiable.
What? Last time you said it was 200,000+! The number keeps growing! Okay, time to put your money where your mouth is. Prove it.
Prove what? The game had a high of about 350K subscriptions. 200-300K cancelations is a very reasonable estimate over the entire history of the game since 2003. Probably much higher since 1millon+ units of the game have been sold (according to SOE).
I do hate SoE as much as the next guy but, you can not assume everyone who left SWG left because of SOE. Some would have left for various reasons including boredom of an old game. I would put the number of cancellations based on poor choices by SOE at about 100k.
Originally posted by Clackamas Prove what? The game had a high of about 350K subscriptions. 200-300K cancelations is a very reasonable estimate over the entire history of the game since 2003. Probably much higher since 1millon+ units of the game have been sold (according to SOE).
My numbers certainly are better than yours.
My numbers? I've never given any numbers. Ever.
And if you are talking cancellations since 2003, I think the numbers would be much higher. The game itself sold over 500k+ copies (I think that million units includes expansions), but didn't retain half of those players. But you weren't talking global cancellations. You were talking vet cancellations, and implied that it was the result of the NGE. I've mentioned that SWG was losing subscribers well before the CU even hit, so I'm not exactly sure how total cancellations since launch would prove me wrong. If anything, it would prove that what I was saying was true.
Originally posted by Clackamas Originally posted by Squidi Originally posted by Clackamas Squidi, at the end of the day, 300,000+ cancelations are what prove you wrong. And that is quantifiable.
What? Last time you said it was 200,000+! The number keeps growing! Okay, time to put your money where your mouth is. Prove it.
Prove what? The game had a high of about 350K subscriptions. 200-300K cancelations is a very reasonable estimate over the entire history of the game since 2003. Probably much higher since 1millon+ units of the game have been sold (according to SOE).
My numbers certainly are better than yours.
Where do you get them ? Second Those losses took place over years not the last 6 months . And as for the 1 million + copies being sold . I don't know that many people from past guilds or friendships that didn't have atleast 2 accounts .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Squidi Originally posted by Clackamas Prove what? The game had a high of about 350K subscriptions. 200-300K cancelations is a very reasonable estimate over the entire history of the game since 2003. Probably much higher since 1millon+ units of the game have been sold (according to SOE).
My numbers certainly are better than yours.
My numbers? I've never given any numbers. Ever.
So, in fact, your claim that the population of SWG is growing is quantifiable is a lie. So much for your arguments.
Originally posted by Wildcat84 Right now I'd say there is likely lag between the open subscriptions and the active subscriptions (ie: those who still play).
This is very true. Active players is more important than active subscriptions. The lack of active players is more telling to non-bean counter, non-investor types.
Expect that gap to narrow as those subs lapse.
Yes, it has grown and will continue to grow as more subs lapse. I know a couple of players that paid for 1 year subscriptions in October of 2005. The full impact won't be known until December 2006. But, shrinking, the game is, in importance.
There certainly are no more than 50-60K players left, but I suppose that there could be more open but not yet expired subscriptions.
Yeah, it is sad they wrongly decided that preCU needed to be redesigned into the NGE.
Originally posted by Squidi Originally posted by Makane Maybe he would lie to make things sound a little better than they really are? If he's saying things are bad, then things must be really, really bad. No President ever says things are bad unless they are awful, and even then he'll try to make it sound better...which is exactly what he did.
Or maybe, he decided to go into the SWG and post as honestly as he could because the playerbase was upset and needed assurances that they listened, that they knew what they were doing, and that their input was important. Did you even read his posts? There were dozens of them, and he answered all sorts of questions. You aren't taking the context under which these quotes were written. You are just taking one out of context quote and manipulating it to mean whatever the hell you want it to.
Forget all the crap about what you think he said or why he said it - your speculation is less than worthless to me. It is hardly objective or well reasoned. What did he said EXACTLY? What did he say in the post before that? What did he say in the post after that? What question was he responding to when he said all that? Do you even know?
Im not about to dig through thousands of posts but its a well known fact what Smedley said. It was even flamed repeatedly on several forums.
Smedley stated that the game continues to lose subscribers, however the losses have slowed recently.
Everyone pointed out that of course the rate of loss would slow down when there are less players to quit. For example, in November - December SWG lost 100k players out of 225k. In April SWG lost 5k out of 50k. So technnically SWG losses have slowed.
Any growth on your server you claim to see is nothing more than players flocking from empty servers.
The day this game grows, Smedley would be on the forums boasting about it. But of course thats never going to happen.
Originally posted by Obraik Originally posted by admriker444 Squidi, I dont care what you and your retard friends claim to see. The game is NOT growing. Get that through your fanboi brain. Smedley, you know him...the guy who's President of SOE...that guy stated the game is still LOSING players. Its beyond me to comprehend the ignorance of fanbois like Squidi who think their personal observations are evidence of growth. Do you see the accounts that are cancelled ? Do you see the accounts that were running on prepaid cards that continue to expire without renewels ? Until Smedley comes out and states the game is growing we can all assume its not. And you dam well better believe if that ever did happen (growth), Smedley would have the SOE PR machine screaming about it to everyone. Accept the fact that the game you have chosen to play is a failure. And accept the fact that you arent smart enough to quit when a company spits in your face, steals your money to develop another game in secret, and repeatedly lies to you. truth hurts
Yes, and Smedley also said that SWG is the 5th largest MMO on the market on that same day. Personal observations aren't evidence of growth? Then why do your personal obeservations count as evidence of a decrease?
Define MMO also because Smedley doesnt think Guild Wars counts. Of course not because it has a lot more players than SWG. Hell, even ToonTown is ahead of SWG (unless you believe the skewed numbers).
Smedley's statement 5th largest is as meaningful as his 80% vet statments before. Just more PR speak
And personal observations about losses are so clear to anyone who played pre-nge. There are simply no players around. The forums have far fewer posts. The vendors are even more obvious, I'd estimate there are 90% less vendors than pre-nge. The bazaar is empty compared to before.
It doesnt take a genius to see there are far less players and much less activity than before this NGE garbage hit
Yea that 5th largest statement was a pile. I can name more than 5 that have more people, just ask.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now." Boba Fett
"The SWG community has been voting with it's feet since the NGE came about."
...
"1) Yes we had 20 servers. 2) Yes there were more people playing 3) No, they weren't remotely full.. and they were getting less full by the day. 4) IMO we probably need a server merge at some point. "
in a span of 1 year or less soe lost at least 60,000 subscribers (july 05 - present) thats about $900,000 a month probably more than that. but at 300,000 subs to just under 200,000 your looking at 1/3 of your profits going out the window that is 33% decrease in revenue at this point, heads should be rolling. bad business poor poor business decisions has caused the demise of swg. at this rate with bad PR the game might not recover unless soe gives in, puts down their pride and say they were wrong and return to pre-cu. This is all about money and i would say the most logical business decision is to get back those that left and make them repeat customers by giving them what they want, a Pre-Cu game.
Originally posted by admriker444 Originally posted by Obraik Originally posted by admriker444 Squidi, I dont care what you and your retard friends claim to see. The game is NOT growing. Get that through your fanboi brain. Smedley, you know him...the guy who's President of SOE...that guy stated the game is still LOSING players. Its beyond me to comprehend the ignorance of fanbois like Squidi who think their personal observations are evidence of growth. Do you see the accounts that are cancelled ? Do you see the accounts that were running on prepaid cards that continue to expire without renewels ? Until Smedley comes out and states the game is growing we can all assume its not. And you dam well better believe if that ever did happen (growth), Smedley would have the SOE PR machine screaming about it to everyone. Accept the fact that the game you have chosen to play is a failure. And accept the fact that you arent smart enough to quit when a company spits in your face, steals your money to develop another game in secret, and repeatedly lies to you. truth hurts
Yes, and Smedley also said that SWG is the 5th largest MMO on the market on that same day. Personal observations aren't evidence of growth? Then why do your personal obeservations count as evidence of a decrease?
Define MMO also because Smedley doesnt think Guild Wars counts. Of course not because it has a lot more players than SWG. Hell, even ToonTown is ahead of SWG (unless you believe the skewed numbers).
Smedley's statement 5th largest is as meaningful as his 80% vet statments before. Just more PR speak
And personal observations about losses are so clear to anyone who played pre-nge. There are simply no players around. The forums have far fewer posts. The vendors are even more obvious, I'd estimate there are 90% less vendors than pre-nge. The bazaar is empty compared to before.
It doesnt take a genius to see there are far less players and much less activity than before this NGE garbage hit
Um, ok. So you choose to quote Smedley on one thing, but yet don't think he is reliable enough to quote on another statement he said the same day? How does that work?
The SWG community has been voting with it's feet since the NGE came about. Either we end up being right about our ability to turn the ship around and make a game that's BETTER than it was before, or we were wrong and we fail. Either way we were losing subs before the NGE and believe it or not, we are losing them at a slower rate than before. I'm not going to pretend we didn't lose a bunch of subs from this. We did. And I don't think the game is where it needs to be yet to aquire new subs. But it's getting there with each and every publish.
I doubt in the 9 weeks since his statement that the game magically started growing again. It hasnt grown in 2 years so why would anyone think the game in its current inferior state would now ?
Originally posted by Obraik Originally posted by admriker444 Originally posted by Obraik Originally posted by admriker444 Squidi, I dont care what you and your retard friends claim to see. The game is NOT growing. Get that through your fanboi brain. Smedley, you know him...the guy who's President of SOE...that guy stated the game is still LOSING players. Its beyond me to comprehend the ignorance of fanbois like Squidi who think their personal observations are evidence of growth. Do you see the accounts that are cancelled ? Do you see the accounts that were running on prepaid cards that continue to expire without renewels ? Until Smedley comes out and states the game is growing we can all assume its not. And you dam well better believe if that ever did happen (growth), Smedley would have the SOE PR machine screaming about it to everyone. Accept the fact that the game you have chosen to play is a failure. And accept the fact that you arent smart enough to quit when a company spits in your face, steals your money to develop another game in secret, and repeatedly lies to you. truth hurts
Yes, and Smedley also said that SWG is the 5th largest MMO on the market on that same day. Personal observations aren't evidence of growth? Then why do your personal obeservations count as evidence of a decrease?
Define MMO also because Smedley doesnt think Guild Wars counts. Of course not because it has a lot more players than SWG. Hell, even ToonTown is ahead of SWG (unless you believe the skewed numbers).
Smedley's statement 5th largest is as meaningful as his 80% vet statments before. Just more PR speak
And personal observations about losses are so clear to anyone who played pre-nge. There are simply no players around. The forums have far fewer posts. The vendors are even more obvious, I'd estimate there are 90% less vendors than pre-nge. The bazaar is empty compared to before.
It doesnt take a genius to see there are far less players and much less activity than before this NGE garbage hit
Um, ok. So you choose to quote Smedley on one thing, but yet don't think he is reliable enough to quote on another statement he said the same day? How does that work?
easy really, smedley doesnt list guildwars along with other MMO's so its obvious his ranking system is flawed.
Rule of thumb, a statement admitting bad news is usually correct and one about good news is usually inflated. Just basic PR stuff really
Originally posted by admriker444 Originally posted by Obraik
Um, ok. So you choose to quote Smedley on one thing, but yet don't think he is reliable enough to quote on another statement he said the same day? How does that work?
easy really, smedley doesnt list guildwars along with other MMO's so its obvious his ranking system is flawed. Rule of thumb, a statement admitting bad news is usually correct and one about good news is usually inflated. Just basic PR stuff really
Says who? You can't quote someone as a reliable source in one sentence and then go and say the exact opposite thing in the next sentence.
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That is also why measuring the number subscribers is not a reliable measure. Release the number of concurrent players over time is much more meaningful. Also, knowing how often a population of players logs in over time (ie how many accounts log in at least 1 time a day, 1 every 2 days, ... 1 once a week, etc). Those types of numbers are much more meaningful to measuing the success of a game than subscriptions.
Subscriptions are mainly useful to bean counters and executives who are only focused on the companies revenue.
Expect that gap to narrow as those subs lapse.
There certainly are no more than 50-60K players left, but I suppose that there could be more open but not yet expired subscriptions.
And why should we accept your figures over sirbruce's?
I had a nice little writeup but stopped mid-way, and with good reason (red quote). Its nice to know for fact why you're really posting and
needlessly inciting further flames sometimes -- you obviously get off
on it. I'm sure any judge (or moderator) would tell you that punching
back later because they punched
earlier isn't going to hold up as a valid excuse for flaming. Even so,
you're NOT as
innocent as you claim to be, and you bloody well know it. I've seen you
assault posters on other threads that didn't even involve you. You seem to want to start fights sometimes.
Anyway, one part of my reply I'll include anyway (for your education) is that your definition of quantifiable is downright laughable. Sorry to sound condescending, but I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. So for your convenience and education, I'll link wikipedia's article on statistics for you. A short version: one data point (yours) is not "quantifiable evidence." Twenty such opinions? Maybe, but that's a tiny "n value." A hundred or a thousand? Now you're talking! Furthermore, you said that statistics will provide absolutes. Unfortunately, statistics won't necessarily give you absolutes as you claim, because (for starters, there's a very long list here) statistics are all dependant on sample sizes, of which, SWG's are unknown. If statistics did give absolutes, then the NGE would be a rip-roaring success and this forum would be one happy place like the other SOE game forums on MMORPG.com.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
You know, the best arguments are normally concise. Concise arguments naturally lead to precise arguments. This thread has clearly gone all over the map.
Squidi, at the end of the day, 300,000+ cancelations are what prove you wrong. And that is quantifiable.
Prove what? The game had a high of about 350K subscriptions. 200-300K cancelations is a very reasonable estimate over the entire history of the game since 2003. Probably much higher since 1millon+ units of the game have been sold (according to SOE).
My numbers certainly are better than yours.
Thats just an estimate.
My numbers? I've never given any numbers. Ever.
And if you are talking cancellations since 2003, I think the numbers would be much higher. The game itself sold over 500k+ copies (I think that million units includes expansions), but didn't retain half of those players. But you weren't talking global cancellations. You were talking vet cancellations, and implied that it was the result of the NGE. I've mentioned that SWG was losing subscribers well before the CU even hit, so I'm not exactly sure how total cancellations since launch would prove me wrong. If anything, it would prove that what I was saying was true.
Prove what? The game had a high of about 350K subscriptions. 200-300K cancelations is a very reasonable estimate over the entire history of the game since 2003. Probably much higher since 1millon+ units of the game have been sold (according to SOE).
My numbers certainly are better than yours.
Where do you get them ? Second Those losses took place over years not the last 6 months . And as for the 1 million + copies being sold . I don't know that many people from past guilds or friendships that didn't have atleast 2 accounts .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
My numbers? I've never given any numbers. Ever.
So, in fact, your claim that the population of SWG is growing is quantifiable is a lie. So much for your arguments.
Forget all the crap about what you think he said or why he said it - your speculation is less than worthless to me. It is hardly objective or well reasoned. What did he said EXACTLY? What did he say in the post before that? What did he say in the post after that? What question was he responding to when he said all that? Do you even know?
Im not about to dig through thousands of posts but its a well known fact what Smedley said. It was even flamed repeatedly on several forums.
Smedley stated that the game continues to lose subscribers, however the losses have slowed recently.
Everyone pointed out that of course the rate of loss would slow down when there are less players to quit. For example, in November - December SWG lost 100k players out of 225k. In April SWG lost 5k out of 50k. So technnically SWG losses have slowed.
Any growth on your server you claim to see is nothing more than players flocking from empty servers.
The day this game grows, Smedley would be on the forums boasting about it. But of course thats never going to happen.
Yes, and Smedley also said that SWG is the 5th largest MMO on the market on that same day. Personal observations aren't evidence of growth? Then why do your personal obeservations count as evidence of a decrease?
Define MMO also because Smedley doesnt think Guild Wars counts. Of course not because it has a lot more players than SWG. Hell, even ToonTown is ahead of SWG (unless you believe the skewed numbers).
Smedley's statement 5th largest is as meaningful as his 80% vet statments before. Just more PR speak
And personal observations about losses are so clear to anyone who played pre-nge. There are simply no players around. The forums have far fewer posts. The vendors are even more obvious, I'd estimate there are 90% less vendors than pre-nge. The bazaar is empty compared to before.
It doesnt take a genius to see there are far less players and much less activity than before this NGE garbage hit
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
Boba Fett
Here is the Link I think all should read from Smed
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=swggpdiscussion&message.id=634119&query.id=0#M634119
Selected Quotes
"The SWG community has been voting with it's feet since the NGE came about."
...
"1) Yes we had 20 servers.
2) Yes there were more people playing
3) No, they weren't remotely full.. and they were getting less full by the day.
4) IMO we probably need a server merge at some point. "
But they could merge couple more servers imo tho.
in a span of 1 year or less soe lost at least 60,000 subscribers (july 05 - present) thats about $900,000 a month probably more than that. but at 300,000 subs to just under 200,000 your looking at 1/3 of your profits going out the window that is 33% decrease in revenue at this point, heads should be rolling. bad business poor poor business decisions has caused the demise of swg. at this rate with bad PR the game might not recover unless soe gives in, puts down their pride and say they were wrong and return to pre-cu. This is all about money and i would say the most logical business decision is to get back those that left and make them repeat customers by giving them what they want, a Pre-Cu game.
Defiant
Yes, and Smedley also said that SWG is the 5th largest MMO on the market on that same day. Personal observations aren't evidence of growth? Then why do your personal obeservations count as evidence of a decrease?
Define MMO also because Smedley doesnt think Guild Wars counts. Of course not because it has a lot more players than SWG. Hell, even ToonTown is ahead of SWG (unless you believe the skewed numbers).
Smedley's statement 5th largest is as meaningful as his 80% vet statments before. Just more PR speak
And personal observations about losses are so clear to anyone who played pre-nge. There are simply no players around. The forums have far fewer posts. The vendors are even more obvious, I'd estimate there are 90% less vendors than pre-nge. The bazaar is empty compared to before.
It doesnt take a genius to see there are far less players and much less activity than before this NGE garbage hit
Um, ok. So you choose to quote Smedley on one thing, but yet don't think he is reliable enough to quote on another statement he said the same day? How does that work?
Here is your proof once again Squidi....
Smedley wrote on March 24th 2006
The SWG community has been voting with it's feet since the NGE came about. Either we end up being right about our ability to turn the ship around and make a game that's BETTER than it was before, or we were wrong and we fail. Either way we were losing subs before the NGE and believe it or not, we are losing them at a slower rate than before. I'm not going to pretend we didn't lose a bunch of subs from this. We did. And I don't think the game is where it needs to be yet to aquire new subs. But it's getting there with each and every publish.
I doubt in the 9 weeks since his statement that the game magically started growing again. It hasnt grown in 2 years so why would anyone think the game in its current inferior state would now ?
checkmate, you lose
Yes, and Smedley also said that SWG is the 5th largest MMO on the market on that same day. Personal observations aren't evidence of growth? Then why do your personal obeservations count as evidence of a decrease?
Define MMO also because Smedley doesnt think Guild Wars counts. Of course not because it has a lot more players than SWG. Hell, even ToonTown is ahead of SWG (unless you believe the skewed numbers).
Smedley's statement 5th largest is as meaningful as his 80% vet statments before. Just more PR speak
And personal observations about losses are so clear to anyone who played pre-nge. There are simply no players around. The forums have far fewer posts. The vendors are even more obvious, I'd estimate there are 90% less vendors than pre-nge. The bazaar is empty compared to before.
It doesnt take a genius to see there are far less players and much less activity than before this NGE garbage hit
Um, ok. So you choose to quote Smedley on one thing, but yet don't think he is reliable enough to quote on another statement he said the same day? How does that work?
easy really, smedley doesnt list guildwars along with other MMO's so its obvious his ranking system is flawed.
Rule of thumb, a statement admitting bad news is usually correct and one about good news is usually inflated. Just basic PR stuff really
Says who? You can't quote someone as a reliable source in one sentence and then go and say the exact opposite thing in the next sentence.