1st, let me say that I thought this article was well written and covered many of our points extremely well.
2nd, let me say that I very happy someone has finally had the guts to write such an article. This article should be stickyed in the general discussion forum for future players. Lets also, hope that this start a trend by similar sites to stand up and write such articles. Maybe then the lights will be turned on at SOE / LA and they'll wake up and do something decent about this.
3rd, I agree with about 90% of what was said. I however feel that the Pre-CU SWG had awesome potential. If they had spent the time and effort fixing the bugs, make minor adjustment to the combat system, and avoided using the Nerf bat, we would still be playing a great game. Especially and most importantly if they had spent the time and resources developing a lot of content and a true GCW, then I firmly believe SWG would have gone over 500K in subscription. The Pre-CU SWG was trule revolutionary, I especially say this since I've looked for a replacement and have yet to find one.
Originally posted by Fatbast When SOE took the SWG licence they did so because at that time they were the number one MMO 'specialists' in the business thanks of course to Everquest. However it is worth nothing that Everquest was at that point beginning to show some signs of weakening thanks to the arrival of titles such as Anarchy Online, Asherons Call 2, Earth and Beyond and a few others still sat on my shelf. During their time at the number one spot the criticisms levelled at SOE had largely been a poor customer service experience and under that what we would deem the 'usual' bugs,balance and content. Nothing spectacular. Its worth noting however that the way that SOE handled these complaints was with an almost mind blowing arrogance. You play the game or leave, your choice - pretty much how it went. This was not confined to EQ. Those that followed also appeared to follow this 'Dev Culture' by ignoring the player base, working to some unfathomable agenda, dodging requests for Test Servers and producing third rate content. Then the cracks began to show. Whilst games like AO and DaOC had problems of their own players were now letting go of thier characters and slowly subs were falling. For all thier faults the new companys were at least engaging thier players on the forums - AO especially worked hard after a disasterous launch to prove itself worthy to the cash paying public. SOE released SWG as the biggest thing since sliced bread - And why not? A title as hot as Star Wars deserves a fanfare. What they did not do was alter their approach to the playerbase. Even with the eventual demise of AC2 / Earth and Beyond and many "In production games" SOE decided to ignore the warning signs that the public was clearly able to hit that cancel subscription button. When WoW hit it was as biggest event in MMO's. Even with the usual gamut of release issues, this was the 'something' else that people had been waiting for. The exodos from other titles must have been felt across the MMO world and caused some serious re-thinks on the financial planning boards. Buckle down, work on content and customer service and weather the storm by maintaining a quality product. SOE took a different strategem. In a fell swoop they REMOVED classes that some players had been developing since release day. They reduced the work that the hardcore few had put in to obtain the legendary Jedi status (You are our only hope Luke?) and instituted a "push this button to become a Jedi" option. They had the audacity to damand payment for expansions that were virtually required to level the upper band of the classes (Mustafar) and the content was, probably SOEs most consistent feature - bugged to high hell. The end result was what you see now. Empty cities, Player cities turning to dust and a server screen that has LOW LOW LOW LOW LOW LOW across the board. On the horizon are Vanguard, Pirates of the Burning Sea, Gods and Heroes, WoW Exp number 1 and a host of Niche games....good news for gamers everywhere. Not so good for SOE. In short you reap what you sow. Sony is gathering the harvest of a disrespectful and arrogant attitude to the very people that feed and clothe its employees. Makes me feel all warm inside.
And that is exactly why I think Sony will probably eventually end up losing the console war as well. Nintendo at one point was king of the hill. They to were so blinded by their arrogance that Sony had no problem coming along and stealing the crown from them. With a CD based expansion drive that was originally designed for the SNES, no less.
Sony and all it's divisions as of late have proven to be very arrogant in their practices. If they don't take a step back, and realize that you can only push customers around so much. They'll end up losing ground on electronics, consoles, and music sales. Much like they have lost their spot as the so called #1 MMO maker.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Originally posted by Munka Thats got to be one of the best articals I've read in a long time, well done!
Agreed, no yelling and screaming like reading angry threads, just straight and to the point. I hope the high ups at SOE and Lucas Arts at least read this article. This is exactly the kind of thing that happens when you get money hungry and lost sight of your first vision. Well done article!
Just to add my 2 cents on the subject. I not only won't play anything SWG, I won't buy another Sony game or product, period. They have proven time and time again they can't be trusted, they get a big Zero for consumer confidence in my mind.
Originally posted by ebenholt Originally posted by BigJonno What makes it worse is that if there ever was a game that needed to stick to its guns, it was SWG. I played the game a couple of months after release and, barring the inevitable problems caused by releasing about six months early, the vast majority of the complaints were from people who just didn't get it. I remember the rallying cry of "please don't let this game be Everquest in space!" It wasn't, it was something completely different and I don't think anyone could have done a better job of recreating an existing setting.
It seems to me that there are two distinct types of MMO out there. Massively multiplayer online games and massively multiplayer online worlds. WoW is very much a MMOG, it is designed to be played in a certain way and everything is geared to creating a fun playing experience. It's probably why this style of game has so many endgame problems, but that's another topic. SWG was very much an online world. There was no particular goal, you were given the Star Wars universe and could live in it however you liked. The reliance on other players (outside of the normal grouping context) was very indicitive of this. The people who were complaining were those who wanted a game and not a world. They were the ones maxing out their characters and wondering what they were supposed to do next. Unfortunately they were a very vocal group and I think that SWG's downfall is a result of that group being listened to too closely.
Great Article! It's what we're all thinking. We all hope SoE will return to pre CU, because that would bring back the older players and return the game to a stable player base. Of course, that would mean admitting mistake, which will not happen.
Originally posted by MGRex It is sad that they didnt bother paying more attention to us verteran's, I honestly think the game would come back to its former glory if they just went back to what it was in the Original (Pre-CU) System. The game was unique and wasnt like any other MMO out there. Now its more like "The Clone Wars" if anything, since everyone is the same. If Sony Online Entertainment(SoE) or Lucasarts pay attention to this...then they should learn what thier mistakes are. They lost thier subscriptions because of what they did to the game. And I agree with what he said. This is probably one of the best worded ways I've seen it said too. Good Job!
Totally agree--I hope SOE finally remembers this when the kiddies get tired and move on to the "next" game, leaving the Etch-A-Sketch servers completely empty.
Great editorial! Sums up what SoE did to the game perfectly.
Such a shame they placed more importance in the mythical player than those actually playing the game.
_____ When Sony and Lucas set out to create the NGE, we said, How can we do this and make it similar to WoW? We wanted it to be all about Iconic characters like Luke, combat and locking our players into a class. So we created a system that would restrict players and make all professions the same and there would be minimal gameplay around making that change. We definitely borrowed a lot of ideas from WoW that worked and figured out how to make them fit for SWG Julio Torres (2005)
In the past it seemed like MMORPG was trying to ignore the outrage against SOE/LA, but there are quite a few more people angry about SOE/LA's actions than those that support them. Guess they're going with the gamers, having learned from SOE/LA's mistakes.
The one thing you have to give SOE/LA credit for is that I don't think anyone would have believed just how many people LOVED SWG if they hadn't given their players the finger, hehe.
The sad thing is that we were beginning to see an influx into Galaxies before the NGE from WoW players looking for more in a game. WoW players are starting to look for the next step beyond WoW, not a clone of it...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
I do believe that the executives at SOE and LA are looking toward a time where games are downloaded, subscribed, and played on PS3 consoles. That is the "mythical silent majority" they seem to want.
They may work to cross-platform it, but if they have to make a design decision in favor of PC playability, and console playability, they'll choose console.
That to me seems to be the only explaination for these changes. If I were a betting man, I'd say expect a massive graphics update for PS3, the elimination of trader and entertainer, and the elimination of the chatbox and command syntax. They could probably eliminate all the subtle non-combat aspects right now, and combat would be unphased.
Yet I am not sure the console market wants "massive online." They may be very good at online content such as Madden, and Halo, but these are peer-to-peer online games, and hard coded. Playing with thousands of strangers on common servers with no offline option is a different matter entirely, and there are legal, ergonomic, contextual, and customer service issues that are frankly too insurmountable to make a console MMO a realistic alternative. All it takes is one 25 year old powergamer to trash talk a nine year old over headsets after a PvP conflict, and it will create a contraversy that will dwarf GTA's "Hot Coffee."
So I agree with Mr. Tierney's article, and thank MMORPG.com for publishing it, for the article is a nice gesture to the ones that make this genre great: the fans, and the players. But I think the "mythical silent majority" the game is being modeled for are not even present yet. They are not, because they are going to be the consumers of a console that does not yet exist, buying into a genre that they may not want, playing a game they might rather play at a desk, with the versatility of a keyboard.
I do want to say in closing though that this whole radical and disrespectful redefinition with SWG was bound to happen sooner or later. This is what happens when a developer's pereogatives are too broad, and the industry is too obsessed with novelty.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Probably part of the SOE / Lucas Arts corporate pyschology was to cater to the wishes of their shareholders. They deliberately left the SWG player base (Pre NGE) in the dark since they knew well enough. That the player base would be bitching and screaming a resounding "No". So this omelette that we now have called SWG: NGE was more so directed to their shareholders than to its consumer base.
The NGE will be the poster boy of what not to do to a MMORPG with an already set game design.
After this continues some more with the blood lettiing of subscribers. SOE will be doing an about face bringing back a Classic SWG server, but by than it may be too late for the game itself overall.
Personaly, I'm glad that MMORPG has finally done an article on this topic. SOE has gone on for far too long ignoring their fanbase and as with many MMO's out there they seem to forget what their forums are for. They are meant to give FEEDBACK to FIX or RESOLVE issues within the game. Topics dealing with item trading or guilds recruiting in forums are "side-effects" of having forums, but their main purpose is to create a voice to the Devs, something SOE and a few other MMO's seem to enjoy ignoring. I played SWG for almost 3 yrs, and once upon a time I actually enjoyed playing my jedi knight in that game before the CU and the NGE, even with groups of BH hunting me and the risk of permadeath back in the early parts of SWG. I admit I am a huge Star Wars fan, but I could only be a glutton for punishment for so long before I gave up on SWG. My hope is that either SOE gets a clue miraculously or another game developer decides to create a Star Wars MMO that will stay true to its fanbase.
Originally posted by Cutedge I appreciate your article, however part of me is sad because I doubt SOE will ever talk to you about SWG again.
I wish MMORPG.com would start flexing their journalistic muscle and flip all online gaming companies the finger. Gaming companies should pander to MMORPG.com, as it is the best source for MMORPG players--the hard core type who subscribe to multiple MMOs for years at a time.
We need more editorials like this one. Who cares about the meaningless interviews? Give me some online gaming dirt and point the finger at the lousy developers out there.
Comments
Thats got to be one of the best articals I've read in a long time, well done!
Hi all,
1st, let me say that I thought this article was well written and covered many of our points extremely well.
2nd, let me say that I very happy someone has finally had the guts to write such an article. This article should be stickyed in the general discussion forum for future players. Lets also, hope that this start a trend by similar sites to stand up and write such articles. Maybe then the lights will be turned on at SOE / LA and they'll wake up and do something decent about this.
3rd, I agree with about 90% of what was said. I however feel that the Pre-CU SWG had awesome potential. If they had spent the time and effort fixing the bugs, make minor adjustment to the combat system, and avoided using the Nerf bat, we would still be playing a great game. Especially and most importantly if they had spent the time and resources developing a lot of content and a true GCW, then I firmly believe SWG would have gone over 500K in subscription. The Pre-CU SWG was trule revolutionary, I especially say this since I've looked for a replacement and have yet to find one.
Anyhow that my 2 cents.
IMO,
Tauceti
Sony and all it's divisions as of late have proven to be very arrogant in their practices. If they don't take a step back, and realize that you can only push customers around so much. They'll end up losing ground on electronics, consoles, and music sales. Much like they have lost their spot as the so called #1 MMO maker.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Agreed, no yelling and screaming like reading angry threads, just straight and to the point. I hope the high ups at SOE and Lucas Arts at least read this article. This is exactly the kind of thing that happens when you get money hungry and lost sight of your first vision. Well done article!
Robots will kill you!
-------------------------------
http://www.rallyphoto.net
Thanks for putting the article up MMORPG.COM.
Nicely written and well said.
Just to add my 2 cents on the subject. I not only won't play anything SWG, I won't buy another Sony game or product, period. They have proven time and time again they can't be trusted, they get a big Zero for consumer confidence in my mind.
I'll whole heartedly second that!
Totally agree--I hope SOE finally remembers this when the kiddies get tired and move on to the "next" game, leaving the Etch-A-Sketch servers completely empty.
Great editorial! Sums up what SoE did to the game perfectly.
Such a shame they placed more importance in the mythical player than those actually playing the game.
_____
When Sony and Lucas set out to create the NGE, we said, How can we do this and make it similar to WoW? We wanted it to be all about Iconic characters like Luke, combat and locking our players into a class. So we created a system that would restrict players and make all professions the same and there would be minimal gameplay around making that change. We definitely borrowed a lot of ideas from WoW that worked and figured out how to make them fit for SWG Julio Torres (2005)
Very well writen & absolutly right-on.
In the past it seemed like MMORPG was trying to ignore the outrage against SOE/LA, but there are quite a few more people angry about SOE/LA's actions than those that support them. Guess they're going with the gamers, having learned from SOE/LA's mistakes.
The one thing you have to give SOE/LA credit for is that I don't think anyone would have believed just how many people LOVED SWG if they hadn't given their players the finger, hehe.
The sad thing is that we were beginning to see an influx into Galaxies before the NGE from WoW players looking for more in a game. WoW players are starting to look for the next step beyond WoW, not a clone of it...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
I do believe that the executives at SOE and LA are looking toward a time where games are downloaded, subscribed, and played on PS3 consoles. That is the "mythical silent majority" they seem to want.
They may work to cross-platform it, but if they have to make a design decision in favor of PC playability, and console playability, they'll choose console.
That to me seems to be the only explaination for these changes. If I were a betting man, I'd say expect a massive graphics update for PS3, the elimination of trader and entertainer, and the elimination of the chatbox and command syntax. They could probably eliminate all the subtle non-combat aspects right now, and combat would be unphased.
Yet I am not sure the console market wants "massive online." They may be very good at online content such as Madden, and Halo, but these are peer-to-peer online games, and hard coded. Playing with thousands of strangers on common servers with no offline option is a different matter entirely, and there are legal, ergonomic, contextual, and customer service issues that are frankly too insurmountable to make a console MMO a realistic alternative. All it takes is one 25 year old powergamer to trash talk a nine year old over headsets after a PvP conflict, and it will create a contraversy that will dwarf GTA's "Hot Coffee."
So I agree with Mr. Tierney's article, and thank MMORPG.com for publishing it, for the article is a nice gesture to the ones that make this genre great: the fans, and the players. But I think the "mythical silent majority" the game is being modeled for are not even present yet. They are not, because they are going to be the consumers of a console that does not yet exist, buying into a genre that they may not want, playing a game they might rather play at a desk, with the versatility of a keyboard.
I do want to say in closing though that this whole radical and disrespectful redefinition with SWG was bound to happen sooner or later. This is what happens when a developer's pereogatives are too broad, and the industry is too obsessed with novelty.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
SWG RIP
moctodumegws
Can't WAIT!
Great article, excellent points, but it's already all been said before and ignored by SOE/LA.
They took a great online environment for role playing and destroyed it despite their subscribers' input.
The game is dead... let it die.
Reno0513
Well done, kudos to the author.
Amen brother!
We spoke out before the CURB, they didn't listen.
Then again before the NGE, again, they didn't listen.
Kevin has totally hit the nail square on the head!
'nuff said
RIP SWG, it was fun while it lasted.
EVE 4Ever!
-
Danag
Probably part of the SOE / Lucas Arts corporate pyschology was to cater to the wishes of their shareholders. They deliberately left the SWG player base (Pre NGE) in the dark since they knew well enough. That the player base would be bitching and screaming a resounding "No". So this omelette that we now have called SWG: NGE was more so directed to their shareholders than to its consumer base.
The NGE will be the poster boy of what not to do to a MMORPG with an already set game design.
After this continues some more with the blood lettiing of subscribers. SOE will be doing an about face bringing back a Classic SWG server, but by than it may be too late for the game itself overall.
----------------------
The Older Gamers
We need more editorials like this one. Who cares about the meaningless interviews? Give me some online gaming dirt and point the finger at the lousy developers out there.
THis is very true. all we wanted was to feel more like we are in the starwars universe. to me this is what they needed to make CU a hit:
1. restrict the jedi from abusing there powers in pvp settings.
2. add in depth quests and profession specific quests.
3. add a smuggling system
4. set gcw in motion
5. make a better balance in the economy
i really feel like this would hve been alot easier then what they are doing now.