I played SWG for about 2 years... and completely agree with this article... good write up and very very true.
Hopefully the MMORPG industry as a whole learned a lesson what NOT to do by the SOE/LA debacle.
A close friend of mine from swg days just IM'd me today - he was my "business partner" in swg and we had our own little franchise for doctor buffs, tailored and architect items and armor... he told me all of our buildings are still standing in the same places but they're all empty now... Our sign is still hung out front...
This was my first MMORPG, start since the beta phase III .... im an huge fan of SW. I leave this game when SOE start to making changes on the money reward of your mission's ... this was the first step to ruin an Beutiful game and for me the best MMORPG i every played. Lucas Arts please dont give another license to SOE to continues whit this game ... Start Thinking on SWG II but NEVER whit SOE .... maby from the creater's of KOTOR ???
Originally posted by Fion Oh and WoW sucks. It's only popular because Blizzard already had a huge fanbase. WoW is fun for about 2 months, then you realize it's just like the rest, only dumbed down even farthur. I've gone back to the original 'complexe' MMOG.. Anarchy Online.
Yap WoW Sucks great ... after u get lvl 60 u lose all the fun of the game ... on SWG when u spend all your skill point u could reset them and to other think, have houses ... stores .... Guild Halls... need to say more ? OLD SWG best MMORPG EVER
Originally posted by Mna_Grok I am honestly not sure why people are reading this article like it is a brand new business paradigm that will revolutionize MMORPGs.
The article can be summed up in two sentances:
1 - Don't piss off current customers in a bid to get new customers.
2 - (Potential) new customers are greatly influenced by the words of old customers. (both currently subscribed and not)
These are not new ideas. They form the basis of any business' relationship with it's customers.
Hey, thank you for your brilliant analysis. The article is not about these ideas being new. It's about a rather big company obviously ignoring these ideas that seems so basic for us normal customers. Including you. This is what's interesting there.
Originally posted by Fion In fact, after the CU hit, subscriptions for the game shot through the roof. Perhaps not all NEW subs, but many MANY older players came back to the game after the CU. I'd actually say that, besides the first 3-6 months the game was out, it was the most active and enjoyable time in SWG.
The gentleman who wrote this article could be taking his information for that well known 'mmog statistics' website, as it showed little change after the CU. But many an industry developer has stated his numbers are mearly educated guesses. As someone who had played SWG from mid beta through to the NGE, I can tell you, as a matter of FACT, that SWG had more people playing it after the first CU then it had in all the years following the first 3-6 months of release.
Evidense of this is simple. The game had 30 odd servers and before the CU, you'd be hard pressed to find more then 2 or 3 at Heavy rating, even at 8pm on a weekend. In fact most the time the servers were rated mostly as Light or Very Light, with perhaps 8 at Medium or higher. Within a few weeks after the CU, word got around that the combat in the game had changed drasticly for the better and subscription numbers rose dramaticly. Within a month after the CU, even at off hours, you'd be lucky to see 3 in Light, most would be medium and some heavy. During peak, just one or two would be light, about 15 would be medium and another dousen would be Heavy, Very Heavy or Extremely Heavy! There were TUNS of people in game, the game got so laggy do to huge jump in players that poeple stopped hunting in places like Dantooine because of the lag. Missions got buggy again because so many were being generated at the same time. It was a mad house.
This is one example of why SirBruce's "educated guesses" at MMOGCHART.COM are worth a lot more than any amount of handwaving from players who heard "the word get around." Two things happened when the CU hit: #1, a fair number of players who had grown bored with a poorly maintained and endlessly featured-delayed game logged back in to see what the new UI was like, which briefly put more people on the streets but did nothing whatsoever for subscription numbers. #2, the CU was (apparently) so much more server intensive than the game it replaced that the indicated load on galaxies skyrocketed. Servers would clock as Medium within moments of coming up, when you could log in and see for yourself that they were practically deserted. Servers showing Heavy or higher would have no more people on a Dantooine /who, for example, than a plain old Medium server would have shown in the pre-CU game. Player concentrations like the great old peak crowds pre-CU were effectively impossible - if you tried to assemble them, the server shut down. This "Load Inflation" was probably not deliberate, but it did have the side effect of making it look like post-CU SWG was going hot and heavy - until you logged in and looked for your guildies or citymates.
Nevertheless, the CU was enjoyed by the pie-slice of SWG players who had never really been comfortable being unable to answer the usual MMO question "What level are you?" It was a slap in the face to the original elegant architecture, but the game was still playable and you still had your hard-earned character. The NGE fixed all that.
PS About SirBruce's numbers: They're not just guesses, he gets data from a variety of sources, over and under the table. The game companies all know about him and MMOGCHART, and they know how to feed him a hard number when it's in their interest. Believe me, any game whose subscriber base actually DID increase in, say, Summer '05, had every incentive to feed this to SirBruce, so that their game might look as good as possible on that graph. If SirBruce shows SWG flat and tailing off during and after the CU, you can bet that it's at least that bad.
"In fact, after the CU hit, subscriptions for the game shot through the roof. Perhaps not all NEW subs, but many MANY older players came back to the game after the CU. I'd actually say that, besides the first 3-6 months the game was out, it was the most active and enjoyable time in SWG. "
But compared to Pre-CU subscriptions WERE down. Also the fact that Smedley admitted that the CU could not bring in a good enough audience they had to do the NGE. So it isn't bashing for bashing's sake. It's relatively agreed that even if some vets came back, the CU did not generate higher subscriptions than before what happened.
"The gentleman who wrote this article could be taking his information for that well known 'mmog statistics' website, as it showed little change after the CU. But many an industry developer has stated his numbers are mearly educated guesses. As someone who had played SWG from mid beta through to the NGE, I can tell you, as a matter of FACT, that SWG had more people playing it after the first CU then it had in all the years following the first 3-6 months of release."
I have no problem stating those numbers are educated guesses. Yet I did play for 3 months during the CU, and it was NOT as populated as pre-cu. If it was as populated, if subscriptions didn't go down, the logical question is, why the massive change to the NGE? To ask that question is to get the answer. Given your reasoning, the NGE wasn't neccessary, as the CU succeeded in getting a wider audience. If you have facts, please share them. Right now those educated guesses and the overall context of the situation argues strongly against that.
However once again, this has very little to do with subscription numbers. As one poster noted, it seems those who have critqued my article (with the exception of one so far) have simply been in auto-defense mode, thinking this was a slam against NGE play mechanics, CU mechanics, etc. It isn't. It was taking the reason SOE/LA justified for the change and analyzing it in the light of sound business principles and ethics.
This editorial states the basic reasoning most of the veteran players have placed behind the decisons being made, and why things are so flawed to this date. I'm glad something like this has shown up on a site other than the SWG forums, because perhaps it will open some eyes, though I doubt it. If SOE were smart, they'd revert back to the original system, but seeing as they've been seeking the "mythical audience" for over a year now, I put little faith in the hope that things will change for the better. It is unfortunate to see a flawed, but respectable and enjoyable game fall to its knees as it has.
Originally posted by iceman00 "In fact, after the CU hit, subscriptions for the game shot through the roof. Perhaps not all NEW subs, but many MANY older players came back to the game after the CU. I'd actually say that, besides the first 3-6 months the game was out, it was the most active and enjoyable time in SWG. " But compared to Pre-CU subscriptions WERE down. Also the fact that Smedley admitted that the CU could not bring in a good enough audience they had to do the NGE. So it isn't bashing for bashing's sake. It's relatively agreed that even if some vets came back, the CU did not generate higher subscriptions than before what happened. "The gentleman who wrote this article could be taking his information for that well known 'mmog statistics' website, as it showed little change after the CU. But many an industry developer has stated his numbers are mearly educated guesses. As someone who had played SWG from mid beta through to the NGE, I can tell you, as a matter of FACT, that SWG had more people playing it after the first CU then it had in all the years following the first 3-6 months of release." I have no problem stating those numbers are educated guesses. Yet I did play for 3 months during the CU, and it was NOT as populated as pre-cu. If it was as populated, if subscriptions didn't go down, the logical question is, why the massive change to the NGE? To ask that question is to get the answer. Given your reasoning, the NGE wasn't neccessary, as the CU succeeded in getting a wider audience. If you have facts, please share them. Right now those educated guesses and the overall context of the situation argues strongly against that. However once again, this has very little to do with subscription numbers. As one poster noted, it seems those who have critqued my article (with the exception of one so far) have simply been in auto-defense mode, thinking this was a slam against NGE play mechanics, CU mechanics, etc. It isn't. It was taking the reason SOE/LA justified for the change and analyzing it in the light of sound business principles and ethics.
One reason for most of those players in the CU was because of the marketing done right when star wars episode 1 hit and the rage of the wookie expansion being advertised. Pre-cu would of had the same results if this had happen when it was still around.
THE SOLUTION: KOTOR ONLINE! PLEASE Bioware and Lucasarts make this so! I know the rumors of this happening are untrue but I soooo wish this could happen. KOTOR is the best SW game I've ever played.
Wonderfully said, Mr. Tierney. They made the best game I had ever played into an uplayable muck, and the worst part is that they won't admit it.
Being alienated by SOE is slightly remedied if anyone there takes the time to read this editorial and truely admit their mistakes. With that said, there won't be any remedy.
It's possible for some very nieve people to argue that subscriptions ext... at SWG are fine. It's possible to say the CU and NGE were great and made the game as popular as WOW and there are no released solid SOE numbers to support it or dispute it.
However it is obvious these situations are not reality. SWG ranks lower in the MMORPG.Com player polls than Horizons. That game barely survived a Bankruptsy and simply is not very healthy. It is however better regarded by Fans. Why? In my opinion it is because fans realise that the Horizons Devs did not produce a bad game on purpose. They lacked the resources to make it as good as they wanted to.
SOE has the money, could get the talent if they wanted to and they could make the most popular MMO on the market. Instead they screw over their customers and the fact that most feel this way is obvious.
If you don't think players are angry at SOE take a look at what happened to the Vangard excitement when SOE became part of the project.
I'd like to thank everyone again for all the kind remarks for the article. however, I think some of the comments have missed the point of the article.
The article wasn't neccessarily why the NGE sucks. The article wasn't about why the NGE rules. Even a few people who like the NGE have come out in agreement with the editorial. The issue I specifically took aim at was the justifications for the changes that SOE made, and why they were a bad idea. I might have a very dismal view of the changes, but those weren't really my concern.
I know, it's the SOE way. I hopped over on the SWG forums yesterday to see one. At that time, the first had been deleted. They think that if it's not on their boards, it doesn't exist I guess.
I wish I didn't care, but I do. I had a great time in that game and it's a shame to go back (yes, I keep torturing myself every few months) to see what is left, or what's not left rather.
Let me just say to thats I'm impressed MMORPG.COM that you posted an Op/Ed like this I didn't know you guys had it in you. I have played onlines games since the 80s back when BBSs were the fad. With these new breed of new MMOs coming out I find myself wanting to become an online gaming activist. In others I'm fed up and can't take it any more. lol I'm sick of how games are being revamped and totaly over hauled when some of the major problems with these games are not the design of of the game. It is the bugs and lack of inspiring content. Make me want to play, not dred it.
SOE has management mindset that they have to be number one in the field and first to bring new ideas to the MMO market. If they dont they get very squirly and try to make up for their short falls. (ie NGE)
The founding design of SWG wasn't it down fall. It was actually a pretty good design. The Implementation of that design fell far short of perfect. SOE/LA assumed that game's short coming we all from teh design. It was mostly if not always from its management. When everyone ask for more content and you bring them a system redesign, you have a major disconnet from your paying clients. If ask you for a cup of coffee and you bring me milk repeatly -- dont be surprise if I walk away and never come back.
SOE has and more likely will always have a major missunderstanding of what their clients want. It seems to be a management style.
Good job MMORPG.COM keep the op/ed coming. We need to keep these companies informed. As they say some of them can't see the forest from the trees. lol
The article wasn't neccessarily why the NGE sucks. The article wasn't about why the NGE rules. Even a few people who like the NGE have come out in agreement with the editorial. The issue I specifically took aim at was the justifications for the changes that SOE made, and why they were a bad idea.
I appreciate your focus, but at the same time, if the NGE had been twice as smart and rich and interesting as the game architecture it replaced, people might be in a mood to forgive SOE for the high-handed way they introduced it. What elevates SWG's history from the usual MMO schoolyard brawl into a cautionary tragedy for the entire industry is the way SOE combined its culture of "ultra dev arrogance" with a series of successively dimmer and dumber visions of what the game was supposed to be. The NGE's suckitude isn't the center of the story, but it's a factor that can't entirely be ignored either.
Where to begin I have been playing the game since November of the year it came out. I can say I was a complete addict. I would play this game nonstop around the clock. This game was all I thought about. Even when I went to work I would look at people and they would look like Star Wars characters to me. SWG had so much going for it when it first came out. I remember the times when jedi were so rare they were treated like rockstars if you ever encountered one. The combat proffessions weren't equal, but who cares the combat was so much fun. It was so easy to learn and was really fast and it got your heart pumping. I can honestly say my best memories of the game were before CU came out. The CU looked so cartoonish and the combat took a lot longer. The way they slowed everything down really took the excitement of it out of the game. Then comes the NGE I actually don't know which one was worse, but this new system had it's own new problems. What the hell happened to all the proffesions. The game had such a diversity before the NGE and now everyone is just the same. To add to that now everyone can start out as a jedi. Man how generic is that. People spent months of their lives either hologrinding or doing the force sensitive quest and now anybody newcomer and just be a jedi. I was not a jedi and I would have to say that was probably the worst of the decisions to give it away like that.
Comments
I played SWG for about 2 years... and completely agree with this article... good write up and very very true.
Hopefully the MMORPG industry as a whole learned a lesson what NOT to do by the SOE/LA debacle.
A close friend of mine from swg days just IM'd me today - he was my "business partner" in swg and we had our own little franchise for doctor buffs, tailored and architect items and armor... he told me all of our buildings are still standing in the same places but they're all empty now... Our sign is still hung out front...
The whole thing is still a crying shame...
No bitchers.
This was my first MMORPG, start since the beta phase III .... im an huge fan of SW. I leave this game when SOE start to making changes on the money reward of your mission's ... this was the first step to ruin an Beutiful game and for me the best MMORPG i every played. Lucas Arts please dont give another license to SOE to continues whit this game ... Start Thinking on SWG II but NEVER whit SOE .... maby from the creater's of KOTOR ???
P.S. Sorry about my english ppl heh
Nevertheless, the CU was enjoyed by the pie-slice of SWG players who had never really been comfortable being unable to answer the usual MMO question "What level are you?" It was a slap in the face to the original elegant architecture, but the game was still playable and you still had your hard-earned character. The NGE fixed all that.
PS About SirBruce's numbers: They're not just guesses, he gets data from a variety of sources, over and under the table. The game companies all know about him and MMOGCHART, and they know how to feed him a hard number when it's in their interest. Believe me, any game whose subscriber base actually DID increase in, say, Summer '05, had every incentive to feed this to SirBruce, so that their game might look as good as possible on that graph. If SirBruce shows SWG flat and tailing off during and after the CU, you can bet that it's at least that bad.
"In fact, after the CU hit, subscriptions for the game shot through the roof. Perhaps not all NEW subs, but many MANY older players came back to the game after the CU. I'd actually say that, besides the first 3-6 months the game was out, it was the most active and enjoyable time in SWG.
"
But compared to Pre-CU subscriptions WERE down. Also the fact that Smedley admitted that the CU could not bring in a good enough audience they had to do the NGE. So it isn't bashing for bashing's sake. It's relatively agreed that even if some vets came back, the CU did not generate higher subscriptions than before what happened.
"The gentleman who wrote this article could be taking his information for that well known 'mmog statistics' website, as it showed little change after the CU. But many an industry developer has stated his numbers are mearly educated guesses. As someone who had played SWG from mid beta through to the NGE, I can tell you, as a matter of FACT, that SWG had more people playing it after the first CU then it had in all the years following the first 3-6 months of release."
I have no problem stating those numbers are educated guesses. Yet I did play for 3 months during the CU, and it was NOT as populated as pre-cu. If it was as populated, if subscriptions didn't go down, the logical question is, why the massive change to the NGE? To ask that question is to get the answer. Given your reasoning, the NGE wasn't neccessary, as the CU succeeded in getting a wider audience. If you have facts, please share them. Right now those educated guesses and the overall context of the situation argues strongly against that.
However once again, this has very little to do with subscription numbers. As one poster noted, it seems those who have critqued my article (with the exception of one so far) have simply been in auto-defense mode, thinking this was a slam against NGE play mechanics, CU mechanics, etc. It isn't. It was taking the reason SOE/LA justified for the change and analyzing it in the light of sound business principles and ethics.
Wonderfully said, Mr. Tierney. They made the best game I had ever played into an uplayable muck, and the worst part is that they won't admit it.
Being alienated by SOE is slightly remedied if anyone there takes the time to read this editorial and truely admit their mistakes. With that said, there won't be any remedy.
J.S. Mills
It's possible for some very nieve people to argue that subscriptions ext... at SWG are fine. It's possible to say the CU and NGE were great and made the game as popular as WOW and there are no released solid SOE numbers to support it or dispute it.
However it is obvious these situations are not reality. SWG ranks lower in the MMORPG.Com player polls than Horizons. That game barely survived a Bankruptsy and simply is not very healthy. It is however better regarded by Fans. Why? In my opinion it is because fans realise that the Horizons Devs did not produce a bad game on purpose. They lacked the resources to make it as good as they wanted to.
SOE has the money, could get the talent if they wanted to and they could make the most popular MMO on the market. Instead they screw over their customers and the fact that most feel this way is obvious.
If you don't think players are angry at SOE take a look at what happened to the Vangard excitement when SOE became part of the project.
I LIKED being uncle Owen instead of Luke Skywalker.
it added more depth for me, i was creating my OWN star wars character in the star wars universe. I miss it greatly.
I'd like to thank everyone again for all the kind remarks for the article. however, I think some of the comments have missed the point of the article.
The article wasn't neccessarily why the NGE sucks. The article wasn't about why the NGE rules. Even a few people who like the NGE have come out in agreement with the editorial. The issue I specifically took aim at was the justifications for the changes that SOE made, and why they were a bad idea. I might have a very dismal view of the changes, but those weren't really my concern.
Hope people understand that.
Thanks,
Kevin Tierney
I know, it's the SOE way. I hopped over on the SWG forums yesterday to see one. At that time, the first had been deleted. They think that if it's not on their boards, it doesn't exist I guess.
I wish I didn't care, but I do. I had a great time in that game and it's a shame to go back (yes, I keep torturing myself every few months) to see what is left, or what's not left rather.
Let me just say to thats I'm impressed MMORPG.COM that you posted an Op/Ed like this I didn't know you guys had it in you. I have played onlines games since the 80s back when BBSs were the fad. With these new breed of new MMOs coming out I find myself wanting to become an online gaming activist. In others I'm fed up and can't take it any more. lol I'm sick of how games are being revamped and totaly over hauled when some of the major problems with these games are not the design of of the game. It is the bugs and lack of inspiring content. Make me want to play, not dred it.
SOE has management mindset that they have to be number one in the field and first to bring new ideas to the MMO market. If they dont they get very squirly and try to make up for their short falls. (ie NGE)
The founding design of SWG wasn't it down fall. It was actually a pretty good design. The Implementation of that design fell far short of perfect. SOE/LA assumed that game's short coming we all from teh design. It was mostly if not always from its management. When everyone ask for more content and you bring them a system redesign, you have a major disconnet from your paying clients. If ask you for a cup of coffee and you bring me milk repeatly -- dont be surprise if I walk away and never come back.
SOE has and more likely will always have a major missunderstanding of what their clients want. It seems to be a management style.
Good job MMORPG.COM keep the op/ed coming. We need to keep these companies informed. As they say some of them can't see the forest from the trees. lol
Will SOE/LE pay attention? I doubt it...
Would I go back to them if they did listen and by chance restored the game? Hell no.
Niccoli