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Boo..another end game=raiding
Ake_Gamer
Member Posts: 112
Repeat after me...repeat after me....repeat after me...
Yay, I love repetition until I quit.
Some will, some won't, so what, next...
Yay, I love repetition until I quit.
Some will, some won't, so what, next...
Dec 20,1999: AC1(DT).Since then:DAoC,SB,AC2,L2,EvE,WoW,SoR
====================
Currently playing: ArchLord - L58 Knight
LoTRo - L13 Dwarf Guardian
Comments
Asheron's Call: Monthly storyline progression including new quests, objectives, crafting, lore, dungeons, mobs.
???: Resource management: Which ever "guild" kills the most mobs in a "region" for a given period of time owns the "region" and all of it's resources for a period of time until the next "challenge" period.
EvE: Time based skill development so that it takes years to cap a character. You can stay on the PvE side of the gameworld and work the economy, resource management and crafting.
That model that EQ1 was so successful with is not necessarily the best. It was innovative and now it's growing old. We need some new end game approaches.
Dec 20,1999: AC1(DT).Since then:DAoC,SB,AC2,L2,EvE,WoW,SoR
====================
Currently playing: ArchLord - L58 Knight
LoTRo - L13 Dwarf Guardian
Open your mind just an inch to an opposing position. I'm no troll, just someone with a differing opinion.
I want to see developers come up with new approaches to the age old "How do we keep our capped players paying?" Obviously, I'm in the minority, as games focused on PvE raiding end game continue to generate revenue, a la WoW.
I'd like to see some change and this game follows in it's predecessors footsteps.
Dec 20,1999: AC1(DT).Since then:DAoC,SB,AC2,L2,EvE,WoW,SoR
====================
Currently playing: ArchLord - L58 Knight
LoTRo - L13 Dwarf Guardian
Vanguards endgame content is not about raiding. Raiding is a small minority of the endgame content. The endagme content will mainly be focused around single group play. Some of the best end game items will come from raids but again only a minority of the best items.
What is planned is that the endgame content willencourage players to play all apsects of the endgame, raids, single group content, crfating diplomacy, questing, city building, long time commitment rewards and whatever else they have planned for us. If you want the best gear and don't want to trade for it you will have to do all of the endgame activities. If you want some of the best endgame content but not all yoiu can do whatever activites that pleases you.
Brad quotes on Endgame content. Raiding vs Group vs solo/casual content information
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=39901&mode=linear&perpage=40&pagenumber=2 (posts #54 and #150)
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showpost.php?p=927504&postcount=126
http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=586&expand=591#faq591
For recent previews, videos, and class information see the link below. Updated to include previews and information since E3, all E3 information, and recent information prior to E3.
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53263
not letting players reach the cap is still the method i find more attractive, and im talking about adding new stuff every once in a while, in a way that 95% of the player base wont reach the cap by the time the new stuff is out and at a rate that will keep the 5% entretained ... thats just my opinion alot of ppl will find it boring.
Fom what I've read...Vanguard isn't at all a Endgame = Raiding game
The best gear in the game will not be centralized around raiding but will be equally distributed between solo, small groups, large groups, raiding, crafting, and diplomacy. Sure you might get the best AC Chest Piece from a raid boss...but the best Weapon might be crafted, and the best Fire Resist helm might be gained through a 6 person dungeon.
The way I understand it, Sigil wants to make the raiding playstyle availble and lucrative, but fully undersand that the majority of their playerbase doesn't have the time to raid. On top of that, raids will only be about 25 people and from what I understand raid dugeons will allow you to save your progress on your Encounter Route...so even then, the raids don't sound that bad.
Vanguards endgame content is not about raiding. Raiding is a small minority of the endgame content. The endagme content will mainly be focused around single group play. Some of the best end game items will come from raids but again only a minority of the best items.
What is planned is that the endgame content willencourage players to play all apsects of the endgame, raids, single group content, crfating diplomacy, questing, city building, long time commitment rewards and whatever else they have planned for us. If you want the best gear and don't want to trade for it you will have to do all of the endgame activities. If you want some of the best endgame content but not all yoiu can do whatever activites that pleases you.
Brad quotes on Endgame content. Raiding vs Group vs solo/casual content information
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=39901&mode=linear&perpage=40&pagenumber=2 (posts #54 and #150)
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showpost.php?p=927504&postcount=126
http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=586&expand=591#faq591
For recent previews, videos, and class information see the link below. Updated to include previews and information since E3, all E3 information, and recent information prior to E3.
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53263
Thank you for the resource links.
In the first, Brad states "And they shall have it. The majority of content, regardless of level
range, is centered around the grouping experience, with the minority
focused on more casual content and raid content."
That's excellent to hear, but let's listen to him closely. Regardless of level, 51% or more will be oriented around the grouping experience. What's the group size max in this game? You still have 49% or less of the content organized around casual(assuming solo) and raid. I'd be curious of the breakdown on that 49% and would guess that a significant % would be raid oriented. That's what made EQ successful and continues WoW's powerful position.
In the second: "
Let me try to come up with a quick hypothetical example -- it's simplistic, but perhaps will make more sense:
1. The best all around helmet (say non-situational -- it has the best
AC, or the best +STR attribute) for a warrior may come from a high
level group zone
2. The best fire resistant vambraces may come from a raid zone
3. The best light armor boots may come from a challenging encounter that is made for casual/solo size groups (1-3).
4. The best AC armor (call it the Red Dragonscale Breastplate) may come
from dragon scales collected in a difficult group dungeon, but then
also require a high level harvester to actually collect the the scales
in the depths of a the dragon's lair, and then a high level crafter to
be able to use it and other components to actually create the Red
Dragonscale Breastplate
5. The best +Charisma Cloak (call it the Royal Red Sparrow Robe) that
enables you access to the throne room in New Targonar may come from a
series of challenging diplomatic quests requiring high skills, items,
and strategy used by one or more players playing in the Diplomacy
sphere."
Excellent examples. And leverages the model well, but it still speaks to having to raid to enjoy all end game content. Cheers to his team for coming up with a multi-pronged approach to satisfy as many as possible.
And the last link speaks to the bottom line: end game involves raiding: "So you are talking about a scenario in which you've reached max level,
cleaned out every high level group dungeon and got all the items you
want from them, crafted or traded for the very best crafted items that
you will want as well, used diplomacy or traded to obtain the best
items obtained from that sphere, leaving only the items that drop from
the raid dungeons left for you to obtain before we add more content to
the game (via expansion or patch)?
At that point, while you wait for more content, I would suggest that
you occasionally raid when you have the time and inclination and then
spend the rest of your play time leveling up another race/class combo,
preferably starting in a very different area (say, if your first
character started somewhere in Thestra, make a Kojanese or Qalian
character this go around).
There's no getting around that some subset of our playerbase will
consume all of the content they wish to before we can add more. Hence
our focus on the three spheres (e.g. alternate ways to advance your
character using different mechanics so you experience something that
feels different), our veteran rewards to encourage re-playability and
starting an alt, etc.
In the meantime, if you simply refuse to raid at all, some of those
items should eventually hit the player driven economy anyway and you
could buy them.
The key I think is that while it is true that some of the best (but not
all of the best) items will come from raid areas or encounters, the
majority of content in the game, from level 1-50, will be centered
around grouping and not raiding. If you group to 50, experience
crafting and diplomacy, and do some trading/buying/selling, I see no
reason why you wouldn't have the majority of items you sought to make
your character as powerful as possible, even if you refused to raid.
That said, I would encourage you and anyone else to take a Saturday off
here and there and try some of the raid content as well, as it can be a
blast to experience."
Dec 20,1999: AC1(DT).Since then:DAoC,SB,AC2,L2,EvE,WoW,SoR
====================
Currently playing: ArchLord - L58 Knight
LoTRo - L13 Dwarf Guardian
Thanks for the feedback.
Dec 20,1999: AC1(DT).Since then:DAoC,SB,AC2,L2,EvE,WoW,SoR
====================
Currently playing: ArchLord - L58 Knight
LoTRo - L13 Dwarf Guardian
Thanks for the feedback.
I could be wrong, so don't take my word for it. But we've been reassured time and time again that Sigil is aiming the game (about 60% of the content) towards 3-6 person groups, understanding that that is where the majority of their subscribers will come from and that most of those people will spend at least some time soloing and some time raiding. Raiding is hardly the focus....
That, of course, won't change how some people go at the game. It appears that some people head for raiding in full force no matter how the game is structured, but anyways... so long as you like playing with other people you'll be set one way or another.
Vanguards endgame content is not about raiding. Raiding is a small minority of the endgame content. The endagme content will mainly be focused around single group play. Some of the best end game items will come from raids but again only a minority of the best items.
What is planned is that the endgame content willencourage players to play all apsects of the endgame, raids, single group content, crfating diplomacy, questing, city building, long time commitment rewards and whatever else they have planned for us. If you want the best gear and don't want to trade for it you will have to do all of the endgame activities. If you want some of the best endgame content but not all yoiu can do whatever activites that pleases you.
Brad quotes on Endgame content. Raiding vs Group vs solo/casual content information
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=39901&mode=linear&perpage=40&pagenumber=2 (posts #54 and #150)
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showpost.php?p=927504&postcount=126
http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=586&expand=591#faq591
For recent previews, videos, and class information see the link below. Updated to include previews and information since E3, all E3 information, and recent information prior to E3.
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53263
Thank you for the resource links.
In the first, Brad states "And they shall have it. The majority of content, regardless of level range, is centered around the grouping experience, with the minority focused on more casual content and raid content."
That's excellent to hear, but let's listen to him closely. Regardless of level, 51% or more will be oriented around the grouping experience. What's the group size max in this game? You still have 49% or less of the content organized around casual(assuming solo) and raid. I'd be curious of the breakdown on that 49% and would guess that a significant % would be raid oriented. That's what made EQ successful and continues WoW's powerful position.
Just to clairfy Brad has said in a few other posts their plan is for 60% of the content to be single group, 20% raid content and 20% solo/casual content. He has said that it is their plan that this ratio will stay the same at all levels including in the endgame.
The group size is six now. It used to be eight but they said at the San Diego Fanguard they were changing it to six with the possibility of changing it back to eight at some point. Solo/casual content is geared for 1-3 players while group content is geared for 3-max size. Oloh has made a few comments that seem to indicate that solo/casual content (although most of it has not been added yet according to Brad) will be above ground mobs while group and raid content will be mostly in dungeons. Oloh has said he spends almost 100% of his time in beta fighting in dungeons. The dungeons sound pretty huge. In his write up at Silky Venom he said their were two types of dungeons mini dungeons and premere dungeons. He said the mini dungeons take 2-4 hours for a group to work their way through while a premere dungeon could take weeks. From his reports and one of the beta newsletters it sound like they have an enormous amount of dungeons already in beta.
I enjoyed your response and I respect very much your desire to take another look at the game. I agree with you about your thoughts about raiding. Making it the sole activity at endgame and the only way to get the best loot at least IMO is a very bad idea as it alienates a good deal of people who have different playstyles. It appears that Brad understands this and is trying to make an endgame that will have content for all playstyles. Keep in mind that about 18-24 months ago Sigil seemed to have a plan that was mroe raid orientated with rewards more geared towards raiders. Brad made a number of posts back then that contradict with the ones he has been making for the last year (which btw have been conistsent with the new endgame vision). So it appears that Sigil's endame they have planned now is a shift in policy and planning. Will it work? Will they keep the word? Can they make enough single group content for the end game to keep people busy and from being bored? I don't know. But I am happy that they seem to understand that people want more from the endgame than raiding and I am also very happy that it is at least their plan to not make raiding the focus of the endgame. I know many very good game players that hate raiding and complain about it to me quite a lot. But I would bet if raiding was more limited like Vanguards plan they would be much more willing to try it occassionaly.
And for all of you weak close minded naivettes who are upset because you had one or two bad experiences with immature people doesn't mean the rest of the PvP community is like that. I play MMOs for PvP mostly and I can tell you that the community for the most part isn't as mature as the nazis would have you believe. Sure there are some kids here and there but that goes for every community in every game. Implementing PvP lets you test your skill, wit, and mettle against actual players with thought processes and their actions and strategies aren't as predictable (to a degree). It's the ultimate challenge and it's the most fun in my opinion.
So I hope Vanguard releases PvP someday and until that day I'm straying away. Enjoy fighting mobs who never learn.
"Time.." I chuckled "I hold no secret to time, though it's mystery puzzles me. Deny it's existence and lie to myself not with hopes of a quickened pace."
Whether Vanguard is a raiding game or not depends on your definition of the term. By my standards, it is most definately a raiding game because a character that raids will inevitably be better than a character that doesn't even outside of raid content. As people here are pointing out, if you want to work towards having the best gear for the group part of the game, you can either raid or make do with inferior stuff. As a follow-on effect, if you don't want to raid and don't want to be in a guild with all of the raiding nonsense, then you're going to be in a guild of people who don't want their characters to be the best at what they do and don't mind having second rate gear since that's what a non-raider will be in this game.
Will you spend most of your time raiding in Vanguard's end game? Not according to anything they've publsihed, so if that's good for you then Vanguard should be fine. But if you don't want to raid at all and don't want to deal with raid guilds, but also don't want to be second-rate at the group content, then you should look for another game.
Add roleplaying to that poll and it I would vote for it. Roleplaying is very important for me in a mmorpg, and what keeps me around even after I've experienced all of the games content (which I never have done, anyway).
I never have the problem of getting bored, because I never see an end to a mmorpg. To me there is no endgame. Yes, I'm sure powergamers and hardcore players may see all that the game has to offer, but in a good mmorpg, there are alternative ways of playing, and added content, and community, which always makes things more interesting over time.
A good mmorpg developer will constantly add content and new features, allowing those player who reach the endgame to experience new things. Why does it always have to be raiding or PvP? Maybe because a lot of players still find these features enjoyable? I think a good mix of everything it the best.
So you're agreeing with me Zippy, just spinning it a bit to make it sound nicer? It looks like you've agreed that if you don't want to raid or deal with raid guilds, you'll have to make do with inferior gear, just like I said. You used the euphemism of "do all the end game activities" instead of just saying raiding, and discussed exactly how inferior your character will be without raiding, but you don't really show that I'm wrong anywhere.
The thing is... if you also, say...dislike Crafting...you wouldn't be able to get the "best" items from crafting (When I say best, I mean, some of the best items in the game will come from crafting and diplomacy)...
So instead, you'll need to buy them from someone, or get them loaned to you from a friend. Many items (including many from raids) will be able to be sold an bartered in a bazaar like atmosphere, so have no worries....if you don't want to raid, just craft or solo, or whatever you want....and buy the item(s) you want. The only people who are going to get ALL of the best items easily are the ones that participate in ALL of the facets of the game. That is how it should be...that is how it is...
...and if anything, Vanguard will be BETTER suited for someone who doesn't like to raid, than say WoW (considered the most Solo/casual friendly game on the market) because all of the items you get from raids in WoW are soulbound, and therefore not tradable. At least in Vanguard you'll have the ability to buy them from someone or get them loaned to you.
The thing is... if you also, say...dislike Crafting...you wouldn't be able to get the "best" items from crafting (When I say best, I mean, some of the best items in the game will come from crafting and diplomacy)...
So instead, you'll need to buy them from someone, or get them loaned to you from a friend. Many items (including many from raids) will be able to be sold an bartered in a bazaar like atmosphere, so have no worries....if you don't want to raid, just craft or solo, or whatever you want....and buy the item(s) you want. The only people who are going to get ALL of the best items easily are the ones that participate in ALL of the facets of the game. That is how it should be...that is how it is...
...and if anything, Vanguard will be BETTER suited for someone who doesn't like to raid, than say WoW (considered the most Solo/casual friendly game on the market) because all of the items you get from raids in WoW are soulbound, and therefore not tradable. At least in Vanguard you'll have the ability to buy them from someone or get them loaned to you.
What Vengeful said is correct and well said. If you want the best gear you will have to trade or do all the endgame activities. If you don't like to raid you will miss some of the best gear. If you don't like diplomacy or solo/casual content you will also miss some of the best gear. If you don't do single group content you will miss most of the best content. Its really the fairest endgame content plan I have seen in any game as it appeals to and rewards all playstyles. The majority of the endgame content and the best gear is for single group play. Raiding is only a small part of the endgame.
At least that is the plan now. Better questions are will it work? Will they be able to produce enough single group content to keep people busy? Will they be able to entice people to raid without deviating from their plan and skewing the rewards towards raiders? Will the endgame plan change as they get further into beta? How will the Brads new plan of using no drop and soulbound items effect their endgame plan of being able to trade for the best items? All these are legitimate questions. But right now Vanguard's endgame is not planned to be a raiding endgame. The plan might change. Of all those questions the one that concerns me most is how the effect of soulbound and no drop items will effect the endgame. But for now raiding will not be a requirement for people that don't like to raid just as people that don't like to craft will not have to craft.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
When I put on my foresight glasses, I see maybe two or three guilds on each server dominating the raiding market. They'll first raid to gear themselves, and will then raid to gain money for the guild by selling the gear that they do get to the non-raiding populace. It'll take a little time for the items to trickled down and out, but it will happen. 80% of the good gear will be easily gotten by the majority of the servers population, because (I'm assuming) most will play by themselves at times and group most of the time.
Note: This doesn't mean that you're standing there 20% naked, though it seems that some people confuse the issue.
....
It....doesn't.
Try reading. 20% Raid Content, and 20% of the best gear comes from raiding. The other 80% of the best gear in the game comes from Solo/Casual gameplay and Groups of 3-6.
Mind you...on top of this....raids are only going to be about 25 people in size, so getting a raid together is ALOT easier than the more common 40