Originally posted by Vengeful The thing is... if you also, say...dislike Crafting...you wouldn't be able to get the "best" items from crafting
The thing is, that is completely and utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Has anyone on this entire site, much less this thread, said that they hate crafting and dealing with crafters? Look at the title of the thread and note the word right after "Boo..another end game=". I'll give you a hint, it's not crafting.
I think it's pretty telling that every time I mentions VG's raiding, a brigade of VG fans hop in to deny it, yet fail to show that I'm wrong on any of my points and resort to silly diversions like 'you'll need crafted stuff too'.
So instead, you'll need to buy them from someone, or get them loaned to you from a friend. Many items (including many from raids) will be able to be sold an bartered in a bazaar like atmosphere, so have no worries....if you don't want to raid, just craft or solo, or whatever you want....and buy the item(s) you want.
Why are you saying this like it's a relevation? I already mentioned buying items, that falls under 'deal with raid guilds'. If you want to pay whatever insane rates the loot whores in raid guilds want to pull gear out of their DKP systems, then you might be OK. But I personally am not interested in becoming a farm bot for a raid guild if they're even willing to sell raid loot, and I know a lot of other people who have no desire to interact with any raid guild.
Also, the devs have already stated that they're going to include soulbound items to control the economy (especially real-cash sales, and I doubt that only the second-best gear will be soulbound if anything is going to be. That means that you won't actually be able to buy all of your items on the market.
[quote] The only people who are going to get ALL of the best items easily are the ones that participate in ALL of the facets of the game. That is how it should be...that is how it is...[/.quote]
Why, because you said so? If the justification is more than 'random guy says so', explain exactly why that approach 'should be' rather than an approach where you solo to get the best gear for solo content, group to get the best gear for group content, and raid to get the best gear for raid content? Or why that approach 'should be' rather than one where you do the style of content you enjoy and get good gear without having to solo if you hate soloing or raid if you hate raiding?
...and if anything, Vanguard will be BETTER suited for someone who doesn't like to raid, than say WoW (considered the most Solo/casual friendly game on the market)
WOW 1-59 is what's considered the solo/'casual' friendly part, and vanguard will definately be worse than that for anyone who doesn't like to raid, since there aren't raids at all in WOW until level 60.
because all of the items you get from raids in WoW are soulbound, and therefore not tradable. At least in Vanguard you'll have the ability to buy them from someone or get them loaned to you.
You haven't checked the FAQ on this in many months I see. There will be soulbound items in Vanguard.
Originally posted by Zippy What Vengeful said is correct and well said. If you want the best gear you will have to trade or do all the endgame activities.
I think it's pretty telling that you guys feel the need to throw up a smokescreen like this. The thread is about raiding and started by someone who clearly doesn't have any desire to raid, it's not about any of the other aspects of the game. Why do you have to try to obfuscate the issues?
But right now Vanguard's endgame is not planned to be a raiding endgame.
Since you missed it the first time I said it, whether Vanguard is a raiding game or not depends on your definition of the term. By my standards, it is most definately a raiding game because a character that raids will inevitably be better than a character that doesn't, even outside of raid content. As people here are pointing out, if you want to work towards having the best gear for the group part of the game, you can either raid or make do with inferior stuff.
But for now raiding will not be a requirement for people that don't like to raid just as people that don't like to craft will not have to craft.
Raiding (or begging for scraps from raid guilds) will be a requirement if you don't want to raid and don't want second-class gear. Why do you guys keep switcing around? You said "If you don't like to raid you will miss some of the best gear," early on. Why not just stick by it instead of playing silly spin games by trying to stress that it won't be required when no game literally has mandatory raiding?
Originally posted by Zippy What Vengeful said is correct and well said. If you want the best gear you will have to trade or do all the endgame activities.
I think it's pretty telling that you guys feel the need to throw up a smokescreen like this. The thread is about raiding and started by someone who clearly doesn't have any desire to raid, it's not about any of the other aspects of the game. Why do you have to try to obfuscate the issues?
But right now Vanguard's endgame is not planned to be a raiding endgame.
Since you missed it the first time I said it, whether Vanguard is a raiding game or not depends on your definition of the term. By my standards, it is most definately a raiding game because a character that raids will inevitably be better than a character that doesn't, even outside of raid content. As people here are pointing out, if you want to work towards having the best gear for the group part of the game, you can either raid or make do with inferior stuff.
But for now raiding will not be a requirement for people that don't like to raid just as people that don't like to craft will not have to craft.
Raiding (or begging for scraps from raid guilds) will be a requirement if you don't want to raid and don't want second-class gear. Why do you guys keep switcing around? You said "If you don't like to raid you will miss some of the best gear," early on. Why not just stick by it instead of playing silly spin games by trying to stress that it won't be required when no game literally has mandatory raiding?
Your logic seems to be more about being personally right than about looking at what Sigil has said objectively. The original poster implies all there is to endgame is raidng over and over and nothing else. Quite simply raiding is not the planned focus of the endgame in Vanguard. If you actually read the thread you might notice that the orginal poster upon seeing the dev quotes about raiding had the coutsey and the courage to admit his mistake. He then asked a few more questions about what the endgame poses as to endgame rewards and percentage. People then added additional information and the thread eveolved from there.
You say Vanguard is raiding game because if you don't raid you will only be able to aquire roughly 80% of the best gear without trading. Using that same logic one could say that Vanguard is crafting game because they will not be able to get all of the best gear without trading or that its a soloing game because they cannot get all of the best gear without soloing or its a diplomacy game because they will not be able to get all of the best gear without diplomacy. All of those arguments are silly. You can get most of the best gear with eliminating any aspect of the endgame you like except single group play. Because the game is about single group play and thats where largest percent of the best gear will come from. But in reality the game is all about all aspects of the endgame. If you want the absolutre best of every item for every cirmcunstance you need to play every aspect of the endgame. Merely because one dislikes one aspect of the endgame whether its raiding or crafting does not mean that aspect suddenly becomes the focus of the endgame.
Now as I said in my previous post how that will play out and how the introduce soulbound no drop items may have a major effect on the how the endgame plays out, But we don't know their exact plans there yet or the ramifications all we know its their intention that all playstyles will be catered to in the endgame and that single group play will be the main focus of the endgame.
I have no problem with you or anyone speculating that Sigil's plans may change or that having soulbound items may change the focus of the endgame but the plan now is simply that the focus of the endgame is single group play and raiding is only a minor part of the planned endgame. Saying that raiding is the focus of the endgame is wrong and is just spreading misinformation.
If what you are looking for a is a game with ZERO raiding content where a soloer can get all the best gear in the game without even having to buy it, THIS IS NOT IT. And it never will be it. So you can either live with it, or go troll some other game boards because you will never like this game.
Originally posted by Vengeful The thing is... if you also, say...dislike Crafting...you wouldn't be able to get the "best" items from crafting
The thing is, that is completely and utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Has anyone on this entire site, much less this thread, said that they hate crafting and dealing with crafters? Look at the title of the thread and note the word right after "Boo..another end game=". I'll give you a hint, it's not crafting.
I think it's pretty telling that every time I mentions VG's raiding, a brigade of VG fans hop in to deny it, yet fail to show that I'm wrong on any of my points and resort to silly diversions like 'you'll need crafted stuff too'.
It isn't irrelevant. You not liking Raiding is very similar to someone not seeing a point in crafting, and those people having to pay outrageous prices for crafted items. I saw the title and I read your posts, and I responded how I did because you seem to be ignoring the fact that this issue is nearly Identical to another issue which you seem to not have any problem with. Lets take everyone's favorite example: WoW.
Crafting. Everyone can craft, true, they have the opportunity...but not everyone wants to spend hours upon hours upon hours grinding out Reputation to get the super cool patterns. Those that don't wish to take part in that time consuming grind, have to pay rediculous crafting fees to the ones that do, they put in the work...so why not?
So instead, you'll need to buy them from someone, or get them loaned to you from a friend. Many items (including many from raids) will be able to be sold an bartered in a bazaar like atmosphere, so have no worries....if you don't want to raid, just craft or solo, or whatever you want....and buy the item(s) you want.
Why are you saying this like it's a relevation? I already mentioned buying items, that falls under 'deal with raid guilds'. If you want to pay whatever insane rates the loot whores in raid guilds want to pull gear out of their DKP systems, then you might be OK. But I personally am not interested in becoming a farm bot for a raid guild if they're even willing to sell raid loot, and I know a lot of other people who have no desire to interact with any raid guild.
Also, the devs have already stated that they're going to include soulbound items to control the economy (especially real-cash sales, and I doubt that only the second-best gear will be soulbound if anything is going to be. That means that you won't actually be able to buy all of your items on the market.
One, if you don't want to interact with the economy, that is a completely different problem and it's your problem. Though and your friends might not want to buy items from raiding guilds, I'm guessing most don't care so long as they can spare the money. It seems to me like you are just wanting to "stick it to the man" by not wanting to "deal with raiding guilds". You've already made up your mind, even though you haven't seen how the games economy will work.
Secondly, they have said there would be soulbound items, but not many. Most would be super rare.
[quote] The only people who are going to get ALL of the best items easily are the ones that participate in ALL of the facets of the game. That is how it should be...that is how it is...[/quote]
Why, because you said so? If the justification is more than 'random guy says so', explain exactly why that approach 'should be' rather than an approach where you solo to get the best gear for solo content, group to get the best gear for group content, and raid to get the best gear for raid content? Or why that approach 'should be' rather than one where you do the style of content you enjoy and get good gear without having to solo if you hate soloing or raid if you hate raiding?
Don't be poopy. It's only logical. If someone experiences 100% of the game, they're entitiled to 100% of the rewards. If someone does 80%, by sheer intuition, they should be entitled to 80%. There is no way I would devote my time and money playing for hours or months or however long, trying to achieve something in the game when Joe Schome over there can just pop on and get the same thing with only doing a fraction of the work. And since there's already about 20% of the population that enjoy raiding, it makes it a wise move to add it to the design. So then....why would those raiders even bother raiding if the rewards they got were obtainable through soloing? It would lose it's luster.
Why would someone go through ALL of the levels of Super Mario Bros. when they can just go through the warp zones?
...and if anything, Vanguard will be BETTER suited for someone who doesn't like to raid, than say WoW (considered the most Solo/casual friendly game on the market)
WOW 1-59 is what's considered the solo/'casual' friendly part, and vanguard will definately be worse than that for anyone who doesn't like to raid, since there aren't raids at all in WOW until level 60.
WoW has a bit Solo/Casual content at level 60, Dungeon Set, Dungeon Set Upgrades, Reputation Farming (bleh). Vanguard, on the other hand...isn't cramming all of the raiding at lvl 60, and likewise isn't cramming all of the Solo/Casual content at the beginning. It's going to be evenly spread out so that everyone can enjoy their prefered style of gaming throughout the entire game.
Mind you, because you seem to forget. >.> Raiding is only 20% of the game. 80% of the game is for groups of 1-6. And since the content is evenly distributed.... <.< 80% of the Endgame in Vanguard is for groups of 1-6. Whether or not it will be fun is up for debate.
because all of the items you get from raids in WoW are soulbound, and therefore not tradable. At least in Vanguard you'll have the ability to buy them from someone or get them loaned to you.
You haven't checked the FAQ on this in many months I see. There will be soulbound items in Vanguard.
There will be, but they will be in the minority...not like in WoW, which is every item that isn't Common Place vendor trash.
Originally posted by Zippy Originally posted by Pantastic
Originally posted by Zippy What Vengeful said is correct and well said. If you want the best gear you will have to trade or do all the endgame activities.
I think it's pretty telling that you guys feel the need to throw up a smokescreen like this. The thread is about raiding and started by someone who clearly doesn't have any desire to raid, it's not about any of the other aspects of the game. Why do you have to try to obfuscate the issues?
But right now Vanguard's endgame is not planned to be a raiding endgame.
Since you missed it the first time I said it, whether Vanguard is a raiding game or not depends on your definition of the term. By my standards, it is most definately a raiding game because a character that raids will inevitably be better than a character that doesn't, even outside of raid content. As people here are pointing out, if you want to work towards having the best gear for the group part of the game, you can either raid or make do with inferior stuff.
But for now raiding will not be a requirement for people that don't like to raid just as people that don't like to craft will not have to craft.
Raiding (or begging for scraps from raid guilds) will be a requirement if you don't want to raid and don't want second-class gear. Why do you guys keep switcing around? You said "If you don't like to raid you will miss some of the best gear," early on. Why not just stick by it instead of playing silly spin games by trying to stress that it won't be required when no game literally has mandatory raiding?
Your logic seems to be more about being personally right than about looking at what Sigil has said objectively. The original poster implies all there is to endgame is raidng over and over and nothing else. Quite simply raiding is not the planned focus of the endgame in Vanguard. If you actually read the thread you might notice that the orginal poster upon seeing the dev quotes about raiding had the coutsey and the courage to admit his mistake. He then asked a few more questions about what the endgame poses as to endgame rewards and percentage. People then added additional information and the thread eveolved from there.
You say Vanguard is raiding game because if you don't raid you will only be able to aquire roughly 80% of the best gear without trading. Using that same logic one could say that Vanguard is crafting game because they will not be able to get all of the best gear without trading or that its a soloing game because they cannot get all of the best gear without soloing or its a diplomacy game because they will not be able to get all of the best gear without diplomacy. All of those arguments are silly. You can get most of the best gear with eliminating any aspect of the endgame you like except single group play. Because the game is about single group play and thats where largest percent of the best gear will come from. But in reality the game is all about all aspects of the endgame. If you want the absolutre best of every item for every cirmcunstance you need to play every aspect of the endgame. Merely because one dislikes one aspect of the endgame whether its raiding or crafting does not mean that aspect suddenly becomes the focus of the endgame.
Now as I said in my previous post how that will play out and how the introduce soulbound no drop items may have a major effect on the how the endgame plays out, But we don't know their exact plans there yet or the ramifications all we know its their intention that all playstyles will be catered to in the endgame and that single group play will be the main focus of the endgame.
I have no problem with you or anyone speculating that Sigil's plans may change or that having soulbound items may change the focus of the endgame but the plan now is simply that the focus of the endgame is single group play and raiding is only a minor part of the planned endgame. Saying that raiding is the focus of the endgame is wrong and is just spreading misinformation.
No, it all still stands...but you aren't looking at the whole picture. If you don't raid and you flat out refuse to even look sidways at a person related to someone who knew a raider, you're only missing out on about 20% of the "Best" gear (my hyperbole aside). Likewise...if someone doesn't take part in Diplomacy, they are also missing out on some percentage of the best gear. I don't see why it's such a big deal. o.O
Originally posted by Ake_Gamer Originally posted by anarchyart Originally posted by Ake_Gamer Repeat after me...repeat after me....repeat after me...
Yay, I love repetition until I quit.
Some will, some won't, so what, next...
What type of end game would you prefer? I know you won't answer this because you're probably just here to troll. Later.
Open your mind just an inch to an opposing position. I'm no troll, just someone with a differing opinion.
I want to see developers come up with new approaches to the age old "How do we keep our capped players paying?" Obviously, I'm in the minority, as games focused on PvE raiding end game continue to generate revenue, a la WoW.
I'd like to see some change and this game follows in it's predecessors footsteps.
I'm waiting for a game to do the same thing. I'm looking for the game that puts in some nice end-game gauntlet type quests to keep the players who don't care for raids occupied. Something where you could do a solo or small group progressive quest series for some nice gear. Some kind of skill challenge type thing where its not about having 50 guildmates beating on something, but rather you solo trying to complete a difficult serious of encounters. Or a single group/due/trio completing the encounters. So far I haven't found the game with this type of end game content. LDON in EQ1 is something like it, but I would rather it be less random and more a specific serious of quests/encounters. Just rambling and throwing some suggestions out there....
Edit: Wow, after reading more of the posts here, maybe this game will have more of what I want... I'll keep my eyes on this.
Originally posted by n2sooners If what you are looking for a is a game with ZERO raiding content where a soloer can get all the best gear in the game without even having to buy it, THIS IS NOT IT. And it never will be it. So you can either live with it, or go troll some other game boards because you will never like this game.
It's pretty much as simple as this. All the people who want to belittle a game for including raiding, DON'T PLAY IT! HELLO, MCFLY!?!?! Is it that difficult? This is a two step debate:
Hater: "Waah I don't want to raid ever under any circumstances, I don't want to have to do anything time consuming or challenging to obtain all the uber loot so I can be le33tomfgbbquberkthxbye!!! I want to get all the best in game rewards for subscribing."
Reasonable person: "Ok don't play this game, there are many others on the market to choose from or to look forward to."
Anything past that is irrelevant. Go spend your time researching other games instead of bashing one that you're obviously not gonna play. (All of this complaining over a game where ONE-FIFTH of the best gear will be derived from raiding. A concerted effort to eliminate raiding as the SOLE avenue for progression and gear obtainment.)
Originally posted by Vengeful It isn't irrelevant. You not liking Raiding is very similar to someone not seeing a point in crafting, and those people having to pay outrageous prices for crafted items.
It's not similar at all. Just on the face of it, "Not seeing a point in crafting" is completely different than disliking raiding, the kinds of guilds that form to raid, the kinds of people that want raiding in a game, and the effects of raid guilds on other guilds in a game. And, again, can you point to even a single person on these boards who says that they dislike crafting, guilds that craft, and the kinds of people that enjoy crafting? Because there are a quite a few with that attitude towards raiding and raid guilds.
On the topic of outrageous prices, crafters don't have any motivation to drive prices arbitrarily high, they just want to craft and make money at it, in fact most crafters like the idea of other people using their crafter items. Raiders, however, don't generally want to sell their items - their motivation for playing is generally to have superior gear to other players as you so succinctly put it "why would those raiders even bother raiding if the rewards they got were obtainable through soloing?" Placing items on the market for reasonable prices is exactly what a crafter wants to do, but for a raider it runs directly contrary to their motivation for playing.
Don't be poopy. It's only logical.
If someone says 'don't be poopy' followed by 'it's only logical', that's a really good sign of how much logic to expect:
If someone experiences 100% of the game, they're entitiled to 100% of the rewards. If someone does 80%, by sheer intuition, they should be entitled to 80%.
Oh dear, it looks like you forgot to include the logic, instead you just repeated your declaration. "Because I say so and used the word 'intuition'" is not logic, it's just you declaring that something is true. What you've outlined above is not the way most games actually work, and I've already provided reasonable alternatives to that model. Even Vanguard doesn't work on that model, Brad has made it clear that there will be some extremely rare items that you can only acquire through luck, not simply by experiencing all of the content of the game.
There is no way I would devote my time and money playing for hours or months or however long, trying to achieve something in the game when Joe Schome over there can just pop on and get the same thing with only doing a fraction of the work.
This is a non-sequitor because it doesn't conflict at all with either of the alternative approaches to yours that I listed; it has no relevance because it doesn't support your contention over either of the alternative approaches that I outlined. One alternative that I outlined was this you could get the best gear for each playstyle from that playstyle, which says nothing about how much time you devote to getting gear. The other alternative was that you get all rewards from all playstyles, which again saying nothing about how much time you devote to getting gear.
In fact, what you've provided is an argument against providing the best gear from raiding, at least in the style that it's implemented in EQ and WOW, because in both games raiders actually do pop on and get better gear while only doing a fraction of the work.
And since there's already about 20% of the population that enjoy raiding, it makes it a wise move to add it to the design. So then....why would those raiders even bother raiding if the rewards they got were obtainable through soloing? It would lose it's luster.
Here we see an apparenty severe lack of logic. You said that there's "20% of the population that enjoy[s] raiding", but then ask why they would bother raiding. Logically, they would raid because they enjoy raiding. If your first statement was really true, that 20% of the population enjoys raiding, then they'd prefer to raid over soloing or grouping. If we had a game where you can get all of your gear entirely by soloing or entirely by raiding, we would expect people who enjoy raiding to prefer raiding.
Now, what's really the case here is that the statement about people enjoying raiding isn't actually true; as you last 2 sentences imply, the luster of raiding is really that you get better gear than everyone else. Most people who want raiding in a game don't actually enjoy the gameplay of raiding and wouldn't bother raiding if the rewards were obtainable other ways. What they enjoy is being able to consider themselves better because of their game gear and being able to exert power over other people through their position in a raid guild, power they can only exert as long as other people have to raid. And that, my friends, is the type of person whom I have no desire to help or even interact with, which a big reason why I won't be buying Vanguard.
Originally posted by n2sooners If what you are looking for a is a game with ZERO raiding content where a soloer can get all the best gear in the game without even having to buy it, THIS IS NOT IT.
Originally posted by Amnesiac07 Hater: "Waah I don't want to raid ever under any circumstances, I don't want to have to do anything time consuming or challenging to obtain all the uber loot so I can be le33tomfgbbquberkthxbye!!! I want to get all the best in game rewards for subscribing."
It's fascinating how raid-supporters tend to defend raiding in games by constructing strawman arguments and then complaining about them. I mean, this is a game where they estimate that 60% of the content will be neither solo nor raid content, yet n2sooners talks as though people who don't want raiding must therefore want to solo. Amnesiac07 claims that people who are only interested in around 80% of Vanguard's content aren't interested in a challenge, apparently he believes most of Vanguard will be non-challenging. He also claims that people who don't want to engage in content involving large groups want to get the best in-game rewards just for subscribing, which is a position I've never actually seen anyone take when discussing a game. His comments are especially absurd since raiding tends to have very unchallenging gameplay, the only real challenge to any raiding I've ever seen or even had described involves enduring boredom, having enough time at the appropriate times for raids, putting up with raid guild nonsense, and learning to repeat some small script of actions on command when a raid leader or add-on tells you to.
I also find it interesting that both of them accuse someone of trolling and bashing the game simply for discussing the role that raiding will play in the game. Pointing out facts is not 'trolling', and calling someome pointing out completely true information about a game a troll says way more about you than about the person you accuse of trolling. If a simple factual discussion of what you'll need to do in the game to avoid being a second-class citizen qualifies as 'bashing' the game to you, then you probably should reconsider how much you support the game. This is especially important for Amnesiac07, since you apparently believe that 80% of vanguard will not be challenging.
You're so full of yourself you're really not even worth quoting. I believe the words pompous and verbose would be severe understatements in characterizing your posts.
/Shrug, if you actually enjoy spending time on the forums of a game you have no interest in knock yourself out. I guess you have to do something to kill the time until Carebears Online goes live.
There are obviously game mechanics in Vanguard that are not for you. I would believe that playing or researching another game that you are not so fundamentally opposed to would be a more constructive use of your time, but like I said whatever floats your boat.
Oh noes, I'm verbose! I actually write text supporting my position instead of just making up some nonsense about how people who don't like raids don't like challenges! Dear lord, how could I write all of two paragraphs responding to two entire posts!
And it's just laughable to be called pompous by a guy who has the sheer audacity to tell me what I do and don't have an interest in (apparently he's telepathic and knows more about my interests than I do) and who actually thinks his suggestions about what I do with my free time warrant consideration.
PS: The carebears online comment was really funny, since you're the one defending PVE (aka carebear) raiding as the pinnacle of challenge. It's just hilarious to see someone who thinks a scripted AI is the pinnacle of challenge calling anyone carebear.
Pan you're such a hater, I think you just need a hug. Like I said, trolling the forum for a game you have such philosophical issues with seems like an interesting way to spend time. Again if that's your cup of tea, more power to you. I would think that perhaps researching other games and looking for something that is more in tune with your refined tastes would be more productive, but what do I know.
So what you're really saying is that you can't defend the complete nonsense you posted earlier, and are trying to divert things with ad homeniums and fake helpfullness? Because you've neglected to say anything in support of what you were going on about before.
There will be a raiding element in Vanguard, if you can't cope with that I would figure it's not the game for you. I did not say raiding is the ONLY way to challenge gamers. That is you making large generalizations based on one post that was obviously made with some overt hyperbole. I guess its a result of getting frustrated of seeing every thread in this forum everyone hijacked by people who aren't interested in the game posting the same crap over and over again. The fact remains that raiding WILL be present, if you can't deal with it being there too bad. Raiding has many pitfalls and I do not want to play a game where it is the sole end-game outlet but to have it be a component of a game is in my opinion not a bad thing.
Youseem to have a general disdain for many on the principles Vanguard is centered around. You also seem to have a sense of superiority to those people who do find Vanguard appealing. There are plently of games in development that look dumb to me, I however choose not to spend my time in those forums panning the game and those with interest in it. I'm quite aware of the possibility of Vanguard not turning out to be the game many are hoping it will be, but trolls like you aren't gonna sway anyone's opinion.
Just because your posts are more long-winded doesn't mean there is any more substance in them. It's all semantics until the game goes live anways.
The title of the thread is "Boo..another end game=raiding". Discussing the role of raiding in the game is not a hijack, a hijack would be discussing something else. The fact that you keep whining about posts that are on-topic both for the board and the thread that you disagree with and accusig me of trolling and thread-hijacking for making them really says it all; you can't possibly defend raiding or the nonsense you posted earlier, so you keep trying to divert the discussion.
So, going to actually post anything of substance? For all of your complaining about my posts, you haven't been able to actually show where I was wrong in anything I've said, especially in the part where I pointed out that what you posted about non-raiders was complete nonsense, or even to justify your absurd 'trolling' and 'hijacking' accusations. Babbling on about what you think I think about the principles of Vanguard, or what you think I think of people who find Vanguard appealing does not qualify as substance.
I also find it incredibly amusing that you keep whining that I'm 'verbose' or 'long-winded' when my responses are roughly the same length as your posts.
"Defend raiding"? Ok it's going to be in the game, if you're looking for a game with ZERO raiding, don't play this game. Don't see what else there is to defend.
Well, you could defend your earlier statement that people who don't want to raid don't want challenging content and in fact want to just be handed all of the loot in the game for logging in. Or you could defend your claims that I am 'trolling' and 'hijacking' this thread, when it's quite clear that my comments are on-topic. But I kind of doubt you can come up with a defense for that stuff.
Originally posted by Pantastic Well, you could defend your earlier statement that people who don't want to raid don't want challenging content and in fact want to just be handed all of the loot in the game for logging in. Or you could defend your claims that I am 'trolling' and 'hijacking' this thread, when it's quite clear that my comments are on-topic. But I kind of doubt you can come up with a defense for that stuff.
LOL! Or, he could just keep egging you on and give the rest of us some fun threads to read! I'm voting for that one. Besides since you've now clearly laid out for him exactly what you expect him to deliver - if it was me - it would be the last thing I'd give. But then I like to be a bit mischievous that way.
You know what. There should be bars in California where you can smoke. And if you don't want to be in a bar where people are smoking, don't go in there. Go to a bar that doesn't allow smoking. I don't like Bed, Bath, and Beyond. I don't like what goes ON in Bed, Bath, and Beyond. Does that mean that I picket Bed, Bath, and Beyond? No. Do you know what I do about it?...I DON'T GO THERE.
I'm sure the rules apply to this as well. This game has 20% Raiding....that doesn't mean that it's a raiding game, but it does allow for that style of play. If that is something you can't handle, there is no reason for you to come marching into the Vanguard Community and try to do away with the raiding. Some games have it. Others don't. Find the game that best suits you. Whether or not you like raiding isn't really an issue for a game that is 100% going to have it.
If you don't like porn, don't visit porn sites.
If you don't like Brad Pitt, don't watch his movies.
If you don't like Danielle Steele, don't read her books.
If you don't like raiding, don't raid.
IF YOU DON'T LIKE VANGUARD, DON'T PLAY IT!!!
That's what I'm gonna do. If I play it, and I get to a point where I'm being forced into a play style I don't like....I'm going to cancel my subscription and tell them why I cancelled on my exit survey. They'll know why, so in 6 months they may fix it and I might come back. That is the ONLY way to play games without getting yoru panties in a bunch.
Oh sure Vengeful! Go and throw a dose of reason on our fun. Now you may have chased off our favorite villain. Oh wait, you didn't actually give any REASONS why you like raiding. You just stated that it's going to be a supported play-style in Vanguard. Heh, nevermind; he'll be back!
Originally posted by dragonace Oh sure Vengeful! Go and throw a dose of reason on our fun. Now you may have chased off our favorite villain. Oh wait, you didn't actually give any REASONS why you like raiding. You just stated that it's going to be a supported play-style in Vanguard. Heh, nevermind; he'll be back!
Well, that is the bottom line. It is going to support that play style, just like it is supporting casual/solo play.
I, personally, enjoy raiding. I love very long fights, I love switching between stages of bosses, and I love the excitement you feel when you down a boss for the first time and how cool you feel when you can have a perfect raid dungeon run. I'm not so concerned about raiding for loot, moreso the honor of the kill...and most importantly, I love the comaraderie that developes in trustworthy raiding guilds.
Even so, I completely understand not liking raiding. I hate soloing. I'd rather do nothing than solo. Soloing makes me anxious (especially because I usually play on PvP servers)...I like having someone watch my back, yet...I'm not going to jump around with picket signs every time a game says it's going to be available to Soloers. That's just rediculous.
And before any of you make some crazed "No solo gear newb" argument. In WoW. I have a priest. I got the Eye of Divinity (from a raid) for the Priest Epic Staff. And for over two months it's been sitting in my bag unused...the quest that revolves around it you have to do by yourself without any interference and I've just had no desire to even try to complete it.
I remember the first time I was with a group that took out Ambassador D'Vinn and Emperor Crush in Crushbone in EQ. It wasn't that big of a deal looking back at it, but it sure was at the time! How many times before had we jumped out the window of the tower into the moat just to get mowed down by the guards surrounding the castle? Did so many naked corpse runs into Crushbone that I think I could still do them in my sleep. That victory made every single death and corpse run worth it!
It's that thrill from overcoming something that had seemed so out of reach that I desire to experience again. I haven't played a game since the original EQ that gave me that same "rush". Perhaps it was because the genre was so new back then and everything was new and exciting, but I also think it's because a lot of the risk has been removed from today's games as well.
Originally posted by dragonace Would have to say I agree 100%.
I remember the first time I was with a group that took out Ambassador D'Vinn and Emperor Crush in Crushbone in EQ. It wasn't that big of a deal looking back at it, but it sure was at the time! How many times before had we jumped out the window of the tower into the moat just to get mowed down by the guards surrounding the castle? Did so many naked corpse runs into Crushbone that I think I could still do them in my sleep. That victory made every single death and corpse run worth it!
It's that thrill from overcoming something that had seemed so out of reach that I desire to experience again. I haven't played a game since the original EQ that gave me that same "rush". Perhaps it was because the genre was so new back then and everything was new and exciting, but I also think it's because a lot of the risk has been removed from today's games as well.
I guess time will tell.
Indeed. I hope that it IS just that the risk has been removed and not that we're just experiencing that "first kiss" syndrome.
Originally posted by Pantastic Well, you could defend your earlier statement that people who don't want to raid don't want challenging content and in fact want to just be handed all of the loot in the game for logging in. Or you could defend your claims that I am 'trolling' and 'hijacking' this thread, when it's quite clear that my comments are on-topic. But I kind of doubt you can come up with a defense for that stuff.
If you took the statement of wanting all the best rewards for logging in as literal, I pity your sarcasm detection skills. Even I characterized it as "overt hyperbole". Also as I said it's a byproduct of being frustrated by people here who seem to think so little on Vanguard yet spend so much time on a furm devoted to it. Regardless of topic here the same people invariably bitch about the same aspects of this game they deem inferior; I see that as hijacking. To keep it short and simple: if you don't like raiding under ANY circumstance or there is any other game design element that you just can't live with, don't play the game. Don't even try it, just write it off. As a matter of fact, all of your worst fears about Vanguard are true...and then some...whatever will keep you off of this game once it is actually finished.
Comments
The thing is, that is completely and utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Has anyone on this entire site, much less this thread, said that they hate crafting and dealing with crafters? Look at the title of the thread and note the word right after "Boo..another end game=". I'll give you a hint, it's not crafting.
I think it's pretty telling that every time I mentions VG's raiding, a brigade of VG fans hop in to deny it, yet fail to show that I'm wrong on any of my points and resort to silly diversions like 'you'll need crafted stuff too'.
Why are you saying this like it's a relevation? I already mentioned buying items, that falls under 'deal with raid guilds'. If you want to pay whatever insane rates the loot whores in raid guilds want to pull gear out of their DKP systems, then you might be OK. But I personally am not interested in becoming a farm bot for a raid guild if they're even willing to sell raid loot, and I know a lot of other people who have no desire to interact with any raid guild.
Also, the devs have already stated that they're going to include soulbound items to control the economy (especially real-cash sales, and I doubt that only the second-best gear will be soulbound if anything is going to be. That means that you won't actually be able to buy all of your items on the market.
[quote] The only people who are going to get ALL of the best items easily are the ones that participate in ALL of the facets of the game. That is how it should be...that is how it is...[/.quote]
Why, because you said so? If the justification is more than 'random guy says so', explain exactly why that approach 'should be' rather than an approach where you solo to get the best gear for solo content, group to get the best gear for group content, and raid to get the best gear for raid content? Or why that approach 'should be' rather than one where you do the style of content you enjoy and get good gear without having to solo if you hate soloing or raid if you hate raiding?
WOW 1-59 is what's considered the solo/'casual' friendly part, and vanguard will definately be worse than that for anyone who doesn't like to raid, since there aren't raids at all in WOW until level 60.
You haven't checked the FAQ on this in many months I see. There will be soulbound items in Vanguard.
I think it's pretty telling that you guys feel the need to throw up a smokescreen like this. The thread is about raiding and started by someone who clearly doesn't have any desire to raid, it's not about any of the other aspects of the game. Why do you have to try to obfuscate the issues?
Since you missed it the first time I said it, whether Vanguard is a raiding game or not depends on your definition of the term. By my standards, it is most definately a raiding game because a character that raids will inevitably be better than a character that doesn't, even outside of raid content. As people here are pointing out, if you want to work towards having the best gear for the group part of the game, you can either raid or make do with inferior stuff.
Raiding (or begging for scraps from raid guilds) will be a requirement if you don't want to raid and don't want second-class gear. Why do you guys keep switcing around? You said "If you don't like to raid you will miss some of the best gear," early on. Why not just stick by it instead of playing silly spin games by trying to stress that it won't be required when no game literally has mandatory raiding?
I think it's pretty telling that you guys feel the need to throw up a smokescreen like this. The thread is about raiding and started by someone who clearly doesn't have any desire to raid, it's not about any of the other aspects of the game. Why do you have to try to obfuscate the issues?
Since you missed it the first time I said it, whether Vanguard is a raiding game or not depends on your definition of the term. By my standards, it is most definately a raiding game because a character that raids will inevitably be better than a character that doesn't, even outside of raid content. As people here are pointing out, if you want to work towards having the best gear for the group part of the game, you can either raid or make do with inferior stuff.
Raiding (or begging for scraps from raid guilds) will be a requirement if you don't want to raid and don't want second-class gear. Why do you guys keep switcing around? You said "If you don't like to raid you will miss some of the best gear," early on. Why not just stick by it instead of playing silly spin games by trying to stress that it won't be required when no game literally has mandatory raiding?
Your logic seems to be more about being personally right than about looking at what Sigil has said objectively. The original poster implies all there is to endgame is raidng over and over and nothing else. Quite simply raiding is not the planned focus of the endgame in Vanguard. If you actually read the thread you might notice that the orginal poster upon seeing the dev quotes about raiding had the coutsey and the courage to admit his mistake. He then asked a few more questions about what the endgame poses as to endgame rewards and percentage. People then added additional information and the thread eveolved from there.
You say Vanguard is raiding game because if you don't raid you will only be able to aquire roughly 80% of the best gear without trading. Using that same logic one could say that Vanguard is crafting game because they will not be able to get all of the best gear without trading or that its a soloing game because they cannot get all of the best gear without soloing or its a diplomacy game because they will not be able to get all of the best gear without diplomacy. All of those arguments are silly. You can get most of the best gear with eliminating any aspect of the endgame you like except single group play. Because the game is about single group play and thats where largest percent of the best gear will come from. But in reality the game is all about all aspects of the endgame. If you want the absolutre best of every item for every cirmcunstance you need to play every aspect of the endgame. Merely because one dislikes one aspect of the endgame whether its raiding or crafting does not mean that aspect suddenly becomes the focus of the endgame.
Now as I said in my previous post how that will play out and how the introduce soulbound no drop items may have a major effect on the how the endgame plays out, But we don't know their exact plans there yet or the ramifications all we know its their intention that all playstyles will be catered to in the endgame and that single group play will be the main focus of the endgame.
I have no problem with you or anyone speculating that Sigil's plans may change or that having soulbound items may change the focus of the endgame but the plan now is simply that the focus of the endgame is single group play and raiding is only a minor part of the planned endgame. Saying that raiding is the focus of the endgame is wrong and is just spreading misinformation.
The thing is, that is completely and utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Has anyone on this entire site, much less this thread, said that they hate crafting and dealing with crafters? Look at the title of the thread and note the word right after "Boo..another end game=". I'll give you a hint, it's not crafting.
I think it's pretty telling that every time I mentions VG's raiding, a brigade of VG fans hop in to deny it, yet fail to show that I'm wrong on any of my points and resort to silly diversions like 'you'll need crafted stuff too'.
It isn't irrelevant. You not liking Raiding is very similar to someone not seeing a point in crafting, and those people having to pay outrageous prices for crafted items. I saw the title and I read your posts, and I responded how I did because you seem to be ignoring the fact that this issue is nearly Identical to another issue which you seem to not have any problem with. Lets take everyone's favorite example: WoW.
Crafting. Everyone can craft, true, they have the opportunity...but not everyone wants to spend hours upon hours upon hours grinding out Reputation to get the super cool patterns. Those that don't wish to take part in that time consuming grind, have to pay rediculous crafting fees to the ones that do, they put in the work...so why not?
Why are you saying this like it's a relevation? I already mentioned buying items, that falls under 'deal with raid guilds'. If you want to pay whatever insane rates the loot whores in raid guilds want to pull gear out of their DKP systems, then you might be OK. But I personally am not interested in becoming a farm bot for a raid guild if they're even willing to sell raid loot, and I know a lot of other people who have no desire to interact with any raid guild.
Also, the devs have already stated that they're going to include soulbound items to control the economy (especially real-cash sales, and I doubt that only the second-best gear will be soulbound if anything is going to be. That means that you won't actually be able to buy all of your items on the market.
One, if you don't want to interact with the economy, that is a completely different problem and it's your problem. Though and your friends might not want to buy items from raiding guilds, I'm guessing most don't care so long as they can spare the money. It seems to me like you are just wanting to "stick it to the man" by not wanting to "deal with raiding guilds". You've already made up your mind, even though you haven't seen how the games economy will work.
Secondly, they have said there would be soulbound items, but not many. Most would be super rare.
[quote] The only people who are going to get ALL of the best items easily are the ones that participate in ALL of the facets of the game. That is how it should be...that is how it is...[/quote]
Why, because you said so? If the justification is more than 'random guy says so', explain exactly why that approach 'should be' rather than an approach where you solo to get the best gear for solo content, group to get the best gear for group content, and raid to get the best gear for raid content? Or why that approach 'should be' rather than one where you do the style of content you enjoy and get good gear without having to solo if you hate soloing or raid if you hate raiding?
Don't be poopy. It's only logical. If someone experiences 100% of the game, they're entitiled to 100% of the rewards. If someone does 80%, by sheer intuition, they should be entitled to 80%. There is no way I would devote my time and money playing for hours or months or however long, trying to achieve something in the game when Joe Schome over there can just pop on and get the same thing with only doing a fraction of the work. And since there's already about 20% of the population that enjoy raiding, it makes it a wise move to add it to the design. So then....why would those raiders even bother raiding if the rewards they got were obtainable through soloing? It would lose it's luster.
Why would someone go through ALL of the levels of Super Mario Bros. when they can just go through the warp zones?
WOW 1-59 is what's considered the solo/'casual' friendly part, and vanguard will definately be worse than that for anyone who doesn't like to raid, since there aren't raids at all in WOW until level 60.
WoW has a bit Solo/Casual content at level 60, Dungeon Set, Dungeon Set Upgrades, Reputation Farming (bleh). Vanguard, on the other hand...isn't cramming all of the raiding at lvl 60, and likewise isn't cramming all of the Solo/Casual content at the beginning. It's going to be evenly spread out so that everyone can enjoy their prefered style of gaming throughout the entire game.
Mind you, because you seem to forget. >.> Raiding is only 20% of the game. 80% of the game is for groups of 1-6. And since the content is evenly distributed.... <.< 80% of the Endgame in Vanguard is for groups of 1-6. Whether or not it will be fun is up for debate.
You haven't checked the FAQ on this in many months I see. There will be soulbound items in Vanguard.
There will be, but they will be in the minority...not like in WoW, which is every item that isn't Common Place vendor trash.
Responses in Orange.
I think it's pretty telling that you guys feel the need to throw up a smokescreen like this. The thread is about raiding and started by someone who clearly doesn't have any desire to raid, it's not about any of the other aspects of the game. Why do you have to try to obfuscate the issues?
Since you missed it the first time I said it, whether Vanguard is a raiding game or not depends on your definition of the term. By my standards, it is most definately a raiding game because a character that raids will inevitably be better than a character that doesn't, even outside of raid content. As people here are pointing out, if you want to work towards having the best gear for the group part of the game, you can either raid or make do with inferior stuff.
Raiding (or begging for scraps from raid guilds) will be a requirement if you don't want to raid and don't want second-class gear. Why do you guys keep switcing around? You said "If you don't like to raid you will miss some of the best gear," early on. Why not just stick by it instead of playing silly spin games by trying to stress that it won't be required when no game literally has mandatory raiding?
Your logic seems to be more about being personally right than about looking at what Sigil has said objectively. The original poster implies all there is to endgame is raidng over and over and nothing else. Quite simply raiding is not the planned focus of the endgame in Vanguard. If you actually read the thread you might notice that the orginal poster upon seeing the dev quotes about raiding had the coutsey and the courage to admit his mistake. He then asked a few more questions about what the endgame poses as to endgame rewards and percentage. People then added additional information and the thread eveolved from there.
You say Vanguard is raiding game because if you don't raid you will only be able to aquire roughly 80% of the best gear without trading. Using that same logic one could say that Vanguard is crafting game because they will not be able to get all of the best gear without trading or that its a soloing game because they cannot get all of the best gear without soloing or its a diplomacy game because they will not be able to get all of the best gear without diplomacy. All of those arguments are silly. You can get most of the best gear with eliminating any aspect of the endgame you like except single group play. Because the game is about single group play and thats where largest percent of the best gear will come from. But in reality the game is all about all aspects of the endgame. If you want the absolutre best of every item for every cirmcunstance you need to play every aspect of the endgame. Merely because one dislikes one aspect of the endgame whether its raiding or crafting does not mean that aspect suddenly becomes the focus of the endgame.
Now as I said in my previous post how that will play out and how the introduce soulbound no drop items may have a major effect on the how the endgame plays out, But we don't know their exact plans there yet or the ramifications all we know its their intention that all playstyles will be catered to in the endgame and that single group play will be the main focus of the endgame.
I have no problem with you or anyone speculating that Sigil's plans may change or that having soulbound items may change the focus of the endgame but the plan now is simply that the focus of the endgame is single group play and raiding is only a minor part of the planned endgame. Saying that raiding is the focus of the endgame is wrong and is just spreading misinformation.
No, it all still stands...but you aren't looking at the whole picture. If you don't raid and you flat out refuse to even look sidways at a person related to someone who knew a raider, you're only missing out on about 20% of the "Best" gear (my hyperbole aside). Likewise...if someone doesn't take part in Diplomacy, they are also missing out on some percentage of the best gear. I don't see why it's such a big deal. o.O
Open your mind just an inch to an opposing position. I'm no troll, just someone with a differing opinion.
I want to see developers come up with new approaches to the age old "How do we keep our capped players paying?" Obviously, I'm in the minority, as games focused on PvE raiding end game continue to generate revenue, a la WoW.
I'd like to see some change and this game follows in it's predecessors footsteps.
I'm waiting for a game to do the same thing. I'm looking for the game that puts in some nice end-game gauntlet type quests to keep the players who don't care for raids occupied. Something where you could do a solo or small group progressive quest series for some nice gear. Some kind of skill challenge type thing where its not about having 50 guildmates beating on something, but rather you solo trying to complete a difficult serious of encounters. Or a single group/due/trio completing the encounters. So far I haven't found the game with this type of end game content. LDON in EQ1 is something like it, but I would rather it be less random and more a specific serious of quests/encounters. Just rambling and throwing some suggestions out there....
Edit: Wow, after reading more of the posts here, maybe this game will have more of what I want... I'll keep my eyes on this.
It's pretty much as simple as this. All the people who want to belittle a game for including raiding, DON'T PLAY IT! HELLO, MCFLY!?!?! Is it that difficult? This is a two step debate:
Hater: "Waah I don't want to raid ever under any circumstances, I don't want to have to do anything time consuming or challenging to obtain all the uber loot so I can be le33tomfgbbquberkthxbye!!! I want to get all the best in game rewards for subscribing."
Reasonable person: "Ok don't play this game, there are many others on the market to choose from or to look forward to."
Anything past that is irrelevant. Go spend your time researching other games instead of bashing one that you're obviously not gonna play. (All of this complaining over a game where ONE-FIFTH of the best gear will be derived from raiding. A concerted effort to eliminate raiding as the SOLE avenue for progression and gear obtainment.)
It's not similar at all. Just on the face of it, "Not seeing a point in crafting" is completely different than disliking raiding, the kinds of guilds that form to raid, the kinds of people that want raiding in a game, and the effects of raid guilds on other guilds in a game. And, again, can you point to even a single person on these boards who says that they dislike crafting, guilds that craft, and the kinds of people that enjoy crafting? Because there are a quite a few with that attitude towards raiding and raid guilds.
On the topic of outrageous prices, crafters don't have any motivation to drive prices arbitrarily high, they just want to craft and make money at it, in fact most crafters like the idea of other people using their crafter items. Raiders, however, don't generally want to sell their items - their motivation for playing is generally to have superior gear to other players as you so succinctly put it "why would those raiders even bother raiding if the rewards they got were obtainable through soloing?" Placing items on the market for reasonable prices is exactly what a crafter wants to do, but for a raider it runs directly contrary to their motivation for playing.
If someone says 'don't be poopy' followed by 'it's only logical', that's a really good sign of how much logic to expect:
Oh dear, it looks like you forgot to include the logic, instead you just repeated your declaration. "Because I say so and used the word 'intuition'" is not logic, it's just you declaring that something is true. What you've outlined above is not the way most games actually work, and I've already provided reasonable alternatives to that model. Even Vanguard doesn't work on that model, Brad has made it clear that there will be some extremely rare items that you can only acquire through luck, not simply by experiencing all of the content of the game.
This is a non-sequitor because it doesn't conflict at all with either of the alternative approaches to yours that I listed; it has no relevance because it doesn't support your contention over either of the alternative approaches that I outlined. One alternative that I outlined was this you could get the best gear for each playstyle from that playstyle, which says nothing about how much time you devote to getting gear. The other alternative was that you get all rewards from all playstyles, which again saying nothing about how much time you devote to getting gear.
In fact, what you've provided is an argument against providing the best gear from raiding, at least in the style that it's implemented in EQ and WOW, because in both games raiders actually do pop on and get better gear while only doing a fraction of the work.
Here we see an apparenty severe lack of logic. You said that there's "20% of the population that enjoy[s] raiding", but then ask why they would bother raiding. Logically, they would raid because they enjoy raiding. If your first statement was really true, that 20% of the population enjoys raiding, then they'd prefer to raid over soloing or grouping. If we had a game where you can get all of your gear entirely by soloing or entirely by raiding, we would expect people who enjoy raiding to prefer raiding.
Now, what's really the case here is that the statement about people enjoying raiding isn't actually true; as you last 2 sentences imply, the luster of raiding is really that you get better gear than everyone else. Most people who want raiding in a game don't actually enjoy the gameplay of raiding and wouldn't bother raiding if the rewards were obtainable other ways. What they enjoy is being able to consider themselves better because of their game gear and being able to exert power over other people through their position in a raid guild, power they can only exert as long as other people have to raid. And that, my friends, is the type of person whom I have no desire to help or even interact with, which a big reason why I won't be buying Vanguard.
It's fascinating how raid-supporters tend to defend raiding in games by constructing strawman arguments and then complaining about them. I mean, this is a game where they estimate that 60% of the content will be neither solo nor raid content, yet n2sooners talks as though people who don't want raiding must therefore want to solo. Amnesiac07 claims that people who are only interested in around 80% of Vanguard's content aren't interested in a challenge, apparently he believes most of Vanguard will be non-challenging. He also claims that people who don't want to engage in content involving large groups want to get the best in-game rewards just for subscribing, which is a position I've never actually seen anyone take when discussing a game. His comments are especially absurd since raiding tends to have very unchallenging gameplay, the only real challenge to any raiding I've ever seen or even had described involves enduring boredom, having enough time at the appropriate times for raids, putting up with raid guild nonsense, and learning to repeat some small script of actions on command when a raid leader or add-on tells you to.
I also find it interesting that both of them accuse someone of trolling and bashing the game simply for discussing the role that raiding will play in the game. Pointing out facts is not 'trolling', and calling someome pointing out completely true information about a game a troll says way more about you than about the person you accuse of trolling. If a simple factual discussion of what you'll need to do in the game to avoid being a second-class citizen qualifies as 'bashing' the game to you, then you probably should reconsider how much you support the game. This is especially important for Amnesiac07, since you apparently believe that 80% of vanguard will not be challenging.
You're so full of yourself you're really not even worth quoting. I believe the words pompous and verbose would be severe understatements in characterizing your posts.
/Shrug, if you actually enjoy spending time on the forums of a game you have no interest in knock yourself out. I guess you have to do something to kill the time until Carebears Online goes live.
There are obviously game mechanics in Vanguard that are not for you. I would believe that playing or researching another game that you are not so fundamentally opposed to would be a more constructive use of your time, but like I said whatever floats your boat.
Oh noes, I'm verbose! I actually write text supporting my position instead of just making up some nonsense about how people who don't like raids don't like challenges! Dear lord, how could I write all of two paragraphs responding to two entire posts!
And it's just laughable to be called pompous by a guy who has the sheer audacity to tell me what I do and don't have an interest in (apparently he's telepathic and knows more about my interests than I do) and who actually thinks his suggestions about what I do with my free time warrant consideration.
PS: The carebears online comment was really funny, since you're the one defending PVE (aka carebear) raiding as the pinnacle of challenge. It's just hilarious to see someone who thinks a scripted AI is the pinnacle of challenge calling anyone carebear.
So what you're really saying is that you can't defend the complete nonsense you posted earlier, and are trying to divert things with ad homeniums and fake helpfullness? Because you've neglected to say anything in support of what you were going on about before.
Youseem to have a general disdain for many on the principles Vanguard is centered around. You also seem to have a sense of superiority to those people who do find Vanguard appealing. There are plently of games in development that look dumb to me, I however choose not to spend my time in those forums panning the game and those with interest in it. I'm quite aware of the possibility of Vanguard not turning out to be the game many are hoping it will be, but trolls like you aren't gonna sway anyone's opinion.
Just because your posts are more long-winded doesn't mean there is any more substance in them. It's all semantics until the game goes live anways.
The title of the thread is "Boo..another end game=raiding". Discussing the role of raiding in the game is not a hijack, a hijack would be discussing something else. The fact that you keep whining about posts that are on-topic both for the board and the thread that you disagree with and accusig me of trolling and thread-hijacking for making them really says it all; you can't possibly defend raiding or the nonsense you posted earlier, so you keep trying to divert the discussion.
So, going to actually post anything of substance? For all of your complaining about my posts, you haven't been able to actually show where I was wrong in anything I've said, especially in the part where I pointed out that what you posted about non-raiders was complete nonsense, or even to justify your absurd 'trolling' and 'hijacking' accusations. Babbling on about what you think I think about the principles of Vanguard, or what you think I think of people who find Vanguard appealing does not qualify as substance.
I also find it incredibly amusing that you keep whining that I'm 'verbose' or 'long-winded' when my responses are roughly the same length as your posts.
Well, you could defend your earlier statement that people who don't want to raid don't want challenging content and in fact want to just be handed all of the loot in the game for logging in. Or you could defend your claims that I am 'trolling' and 'hijacking' this thread, when it's quite clear that my comments are on-topic. But I kind of doubt you can come up with a defense for that stuff.
Some comedian said something along these lines...
You know what. There should be bars in California where you can smoke. And if you don't want to be in a bar where people are smoking, don't go in there. Go to a bar that doesn't allow smoking. I don't like Bed, Bath, and Beyond. I don't like what goes ON in Bed, Bath, and Beyond. Does that mean that I picket Bed, Bath, and Beyond? No. Do you know what I do about it?...I DON'T GO THERE.
I'm sure the rules apply to this as well. This game has 20% Raiding....that doesn't mean that it's a raiding game, but it does allow for that style of play. If that is something you can't handle, there is no reason for you to come marching into the Vanguard Community and try to do away with the raiding. Some games have it. Others don't. Find the game that best suits you. Whether or not you like raiding isn't really an issue for a game that is 100% going to have it.
If you don't like porn, don't visit porn sites.
If you don't like Brad Pitt, don't watch his movies.
If you don't like Danielle Steele, don't read her books.
If you don't like raiding, don't raid.
IF YOU DON'T LIKE VANGUARD, DON'T PLAY IT!!!
That's what I'm gonna do. If I play it, and I get to a point where I'm being forced into a play style I don't like....I'm going to cancel my subscription and tell them why I cancelled on my exit survey. They'll know why, so in 6 months they may fix it and I might come back. That is the ONLY way to play games without getting yoru panties in a bunch.
Well, that is the bottom line. It is going to support that play style, just like it is supporting casual/solo play.
I, personally, enjoy raiding. I love very long fights, I love switching between stages of bosses, and I love the excitement you feel when you down a boss for the first time and how cool you feel when you can have a perfect raid dungeon run. I'm not so concerned about raiding for loot, moreso the honor of the kill...and most importantly, I love the comaraderie that developes in trustworthy raiding guilds.
Even so, I completely understand not liking raiding. I hate soloing. I'd rather do nothing than solo. Soloing makes me anxious (especially because I usually play on PvP servers)...I like having someone watch my back, yet...I'm not going to jump around with picket signs every time a game says it's going to be available to Soloers. That's just rediculous.
And before any of you make some crazed "No solo gear newb" argument. In WoW. I have a priest. I got the Eye of Divinity (from a raid) for the Priest Epic Staff. And for over two months it's been sitting in my bag unused...the quest that revolves around it you have to do by yourself without any interference and I've just had no desire to even try to complete it.
I remember the first time I was with a group that took out Ambassador D'Vinn and
Emperor Crush in Crushbone in EQ. It wasn't that big of a deal looking back at it, but it sure was at the time! How many times before had we jumped out the window of the tower into the moat just to get mowed down by the guards surrounding the castle? Did so many naked corpse runs into Crushbone that I think I could still do them in my sleep. That victory made every single death and corpse run worth it!
It's that thrill from overcoming something that had seemed so out of reach that I desire to experience again. I haven't played a game since the original EQ that gave me that same "rush". Perhaps it was because the genre was so new back then and everything was new and exciting, but I also think it's because a lot of the risk has been removed from today's games as well.
I guess time will tell.
Indeed. I hope that it IS just that the risk has been removed and not that we're just experiencing that "first kiss" syndrome.