In the end, EVE Online is probaly for the more mature players. Even scams are legal! Recently, some guy spent 6 months putting up a scam(EIB - Eve Investment Bank) and got 700 BILLION isks out of it. How much is that worth in real life? 120.000$$.
So following your logic full loot, scams and griefing are mature? huh?
In the end, EVE Online is probaly for the more mature players. Even scams are legal! Recently, some guy spent 6 months putting up a scam(EIB - Eve Investment Bank) and got 700 BILLION isks out of it. How much is that worth in real life? 120.000$$.
So following your logic full loot, scams and griefing are mature? huh?
Yep. These are all concepts with live with in real life too. 'Scams' aren't exactly invented in online gaming. It takes maturity to accept this as a part of an working society. Now, you could ofcourse throw the 'I want games to be fun' card. But this is ALSO fun. Why? You choose your route in life. Want to be a dishonest player, that scams and griefs? Want to be a succesfull merchant? Want to be an PvP, gate camper, pirate? Imagine EVE without all this. It would be nothing but an Isk grinding game. The fact that scams are legal, means you have to be sure what you invest in - Do background checks, look for similarities in the way this one is presented, as with previous scams etc.
Edit: More precisely, what i mean: A game with full looting and all out PvP breeds a mature community. Let's take WoW: Everyone can smacktalk you, and you can't pay them back. They can ninja from you, train mobs on you, scam you.. Basicly, you got no powers. You're a victim. The other guy only got his reputation at stakes, and he could just reroll if needed. In a game like EVE, you don't reroll. If you're trying to do a scam, people will look at how old your character is. The older he is, the more he'll trust you. The older he is, the more skillpoints he got. So rerolling would mean.. Starting all over with skillpoints. Ofcourse, he could buy a new character, but others might find out. In the end, everything you do in EVE, is dangerous. Don't smacktalk someone, you could risk to loose your ship. It gives the victim a chance to come back and hit you where it hurts.
Full looting can work if the game is balanced around that. Ultima Online, for example, was a great game with open PvP and full looting. It was not difficullt to replace equipment that you lost and more than likely, you had a spare set in your bank ready anyway. However, Ultima Online only offered open PvP as a choice for the players. It happened every now and then and, yes, it was very exciting to fight in such a large risk vs reward environment.
The difference here though is that Warhammer Online will be a warzone. You will go out to fight and die... I am assuming here but death is probably not uncommon. In a game like DAoC or even WoW, you can die 20+ times in a day easily. You simply can't replace that kind of loss. The game is not balanced for full looting.
Originally posted by Xalban Full looting can work if the game is balanced around that. Ultima Online, for example, was a great game with open PvP and full looting. It was not difficullt to replace equipment that you lost and more than likely, you had a spare set in your bank ready anyway. However, Ultima Online only offered open PvP as a choice for the players. It happened every now and then and, yes, it was very exciting to fight in such a large risk vs reward environment.The difference here though is that Warhammer Online will be a warzone. You will go out to fight and die... I am assuming here but death is probably not uncommon. In a game like DAoC or even WoW, you can die 20+ times in a day easily. You simply can't replace that kind of loss. The game is not balanced for full looting.
Not to mention that WAR is supposed to have a penalty for PvP deaths so you just don't go out and suicide all the time without worries. I personally would like to know what the negative effects of dying are in the game.
Siehst du mich Erkennst du mich Ganz tief in meinem Herz ist noch ein Platz f?r dich Ich suche dich Ich sehne mich nach dem was ich geliebt hab doch ich find es nicht
Originally posted by n2sooners What is fun about a handful of regulars per server who gank any newbies who join until they quit? MMOs are there to make money, if you think there is such a high demand for a full looting PVP game, then why not put up some of your capital and finance one?
Just think how much loot they would make doing that! lol.
Originally posted by havocthefirs Is there a point to pvp without full looting, the simple awnser is no. Theres no excitement without looting, how can there be? Even games like wow in mo the worst of all games, why? Epic gear no looting or housing/ poor crafting. In the end everyone has epic gear and then no gear is epic so why not loot. Without looting crafting becomes irrelevant since I lose nothing I need nothing. If I cant bandage in combat and can only drink 1 pot at most again irrelevant. Can mmorpg's break free from carebearitis, alas only UO in its heyday pre aos managed it.
Hardcore guys sure CRAI alot.
I guess winning in a fight isnt enough reason to pvp for you?
And yeah wow is so bad...thats why so many millions of people play it....and keep playing it.... its just terrible /sigh
Nothing good comes from corpse looting, sorry to say. It's nothing but a griefing tool, and it makes games less fun. If the fights are great, then that is all that is needed -- hell, even in WoW I had the adrenaline pumping at a couple points because I was the middle of really great fights that were really close. Doesn't happen often, but it does.
Originally posted by Havoc01 Originally posted by havocthefirs Is there a point to pvp without full looting, the simple awnser is no. Theres no excitement without looting, how can there be? Even games like wow in mo the worst of all games, why? Epic gear no looting or housing/ poor crafting. In the end everyone has epic gear and then no gear is epic so why not loot. Without looting crafting becomes irrelevant since I lose nothing I need nothing. If I cant bandage in combat and can only drink 1 pot at most again irrelevant. Can mmorpg's break free from carebearitis, alas only UO in its heyday pre aos managed it.
You are in the smallest market share, no one cares about hardcore ffa pvp because so few people like that game type. Go play eve, work up your character, then get snuffed out by someone who was gate camping while you were jumping in and lagging. Not fun.
Actually Eve is fine as long as you plan with the understanding of attrition. But basically Eve is fine because of its rewards system. Something like WoW or EQ with uber items that can take months to get simply cannot have pvp looting. No normal person wants to take a chance at losing something like that, only someone with a gambling problem would do that.
So you have a dichotomy you can have pvp looting but you must have a particular kind of item model. If you want to have the addictive uber item farm model ala WoW/EQ you can't have pvp looting.
Originally posted by havocthefirs Is there a point to pvp without full looting, the simple awnser is no. Theres no excitement without looting, how can there be? Even games like wow in mo the worst of all games, why? Epic gear no looting or housing/ poor crafting. In the end everyone has epic gear and then no gear is epic so why not loot. Without looting crafting becomes irrelevant since I lose nothing I need nothing. If I cant bandage in combat and can only drink 1 pot at most again irrelevant. Can mmorpg's break free from carebearitis, alas only UO in its heyday pre aos managed it.
Killing another players for the sole purpose of looting their items, sounds more like a thief than a warrior. In the heat of a battle, an army fighting another army, do you really have time to loot a dead body??
The major problem you encounter when you are able to loot ppl's equipment is griefing. There is no fix to human nature so no looting of equipment. In all games where I have seen ppl being able to loot other people's equipment you see higher levels killing low levels and groups of ppl ambushing spots where they know ppl are most likely going to be solo. Doesn't matter how good your gear is you vs 10 ppl and you lost your gear.
Most great gear is hard to get. No reason for someone who has played 1 day and 1 year to have the same gear. Do you really want to invest hours and hours for some uber leet rare ass weapon to have it looted by 2 groups of people camping some place you need to go?
Originally posted by havocthefirs Is there a point to pvp without full looting, the simple awnser is no. Theres no excitement without looting, how can there be? Even games like wow in mo the worst of all games, why? Epic gear no looting or housing/ poor crafting. In the end everyone has epic gear and then no gear is epic so why not loot. Without looting crafting becomes irrelevant since I lose nothing I need nothing. If I cant bandage in combat and can only drink 1 pot at most again irrelevant. Can mmorpg's break free from carebearitis, alas only UO in its heyday pre aos managed it.
In WAR there's a great reason for PvP without "full" looting. All of the armor is class and race specific. Why would an Orc want to loot an Elf's armor??? Why would an Empire Warrior Priest want to loot a Dark Elf Witch Elf's ARmor???
Very good reason there for not full looting. So instead you can loot trophies off the body. like heads and such.
--------------------------------------------- I live to fight, and fight to live.
Anyone that played DAoC which was mythics first RvR game knows they did allow Realm looting. If you beat a realm and looted them you got up to a 20% damage mod that you keep until they beat and loot your realm. That is 20% extra damage on every attack you do from lvl 1-50. That translates into 20% faster lvling or farming.
They also put in a dungeon that only the winning realm could access. At one point, this dungeon had THEE best equipment in the game.
The big benifit of RvR compared to PvP - Unity. PvP rewards the best ganker or best ganker guilds. Face it, if you can lose everything on a death you aren't going to have many long lasting GvG battles. Also if your realm is badly underpopulated you most likley won't PvP at all. If 50 enemies are attacking and you only have 15 defenders what is the point of losing you raid loot when you could just log.
RvR rewards the most organized team. People are encouraged to defend because if they don't they could lose their bonuses. Instead of if having it if they don't pvp they are safe and if they do they may lose something.
I remember in DAoC anRelic raid would be attempted on us by an enemy and within 5mins you could do
/who 40-50 and see 90% of players in the defensive zones. That is they were PvEing but suicided to go defend. People would also get word on IM and log on to go defend.
Originally posted by havocthefirs Is there a point to pvp without full looting, the simple awnser is no. Theres no excitement without looting, how can there be? Even games like wow in mo the worst of all games, why? Epic gear no looting or housing/ poor crafting. In the end everyone has epic gear and then no gear is epic so why not loot. Without looting crafting becomes irrelevant since I lose nothing I need nothing. If I cant bandage in combat and can only drink 1 pot at most again irrelevant. Can mmorpg's break free from carebearitis, alas only UO in its heyday pre aos managed it.
Sounds like you should play Eve Online. Would suit your style of pvp. Not only is there loot from the kill but you lose your ship, and can lose skills if you dont clone your pod.
I agree to a certain extent there needs to be some risk to dieing otherwise there is no pvp adrenanline rush liek you get in Eve online and other harder death penalty systems. Wow deaths are jokes and just makes for that zerg with no tactic mentality. "it's only death i can run right back" It's so bad noone res's in pvp there.
-------------------- 10 million people play WoW but I have yet to find one who admits liking it?!"
"Aion has the grind of EQ, the PvP of DAoC, and the smooth playability of WoW."
"First off, I played EQ - Rallos Zek, where we all ran around naked and PK each other. From there I went to DAOC and found the PvP that was much more fulfilling, large scale battles where guilds owned keeps. Since then I've been a big found of this style of PvP. WoW's PvP is also unfulfilling, its not tangable and the instances just reset. BGs are fun for a few runs but get old quick.
Anyways voted NO on looting armor off of someone, I dont need that to make PvP Epic for myself, had it in EQ Rallos Zek, and all it led too was naked pvping for the most part. It had its draw, and that draw died quickly enough."
Mythic has an idea with WAR and RvR, this idea is not compatible with harsh penalties. Harsh penalties would cripple the gameplay so much that they had to create a new mmorpg.
I think mythic found the middle, not too soft so that people wont do stupid moves but also not too harsh. Personally I believe that more and more companies will go that way (the middle). Potbs for instance, there are more colors then black and white you do not need 1337 penalties to have meaningful pvp.
Why would someone loot something that is made for another race and can't be worn by youre race. And like someone already said why loot a weapon if youre own weapon killed him and there for is better.
I rather like it that you need to repair youre stuff at a player crafter. And loot resources that can be sold to crafters. It keeps the player market healty.
Also on PvE why loot armour/weapons its the same it was not made for my race and my own stuff was better because i'm alive. And why it drops a good weapon/armour but not used it in that fight? I rather have it that it drops resources so you can sell it to crafters that make weapons/armour from it. It will make a selfcontaining player market. Like UO had.
Its more believable that it drops a resources then a good weapon/armour that he didn't use in a fight. Looting a ORC armour and try to wear it with a dwarf, doesn't make it believable. Resources on the other hand is believable because it could be that he was gathering it for his new armour/weapon.
Also when killing a animal and loot money from it isn't believable. Resources like skins our something else are.
A mmorpg needs a good player market, that was what made UO good. And some unique rewards from some very hard quests but that can break, so after a while it can be dropped again in a quest. (and are soulbound on pickup)
PvP gives you the rush of defeating someone and getting something good from it, but if you loot someones hard to get armour/weapon then the fun will be not that good. A penalty is a must like repair the armour/weapon but not losing it (only lose it when youre to stupid not to repair it after some fights)
Sounds like you should play Eve Online. Would suit your style of pvp. Not only is there loot from the kill but you lose your ship, and can lose skills if you dont clone your pod.
Wrong, Eve takes far to long to build up your ship/skills and has timesinks that even power leveling cant over-come. If it takes 70 rl days to train a skill, it takes the skill out of the players hands.
No offense but the pvp crowd needs abit faster action. aka: Shadowbane , Counter-strike , Guild wars , NWN persistant worlds etc.
I have read exactly 3 posts in these forums and 2 things are obvious:
1.) Those who have never played a game above the mediocrity and mass appeal build of WoW (which I actively play), or even have only played WoW
2.) Those who have never played a quality Mythic product, most recognizeably DAoC which won numerous accolades for it's gameplay and systems and was only missing the lore and polish of a history like Warhammer.
Those who get it, will play WAR, those who don't will continue to play the watered down mass appeals and/or the gankers delights.
Looting in PVP of equipment would make no sense. that is true other then for trophy sakes.
Instead PVP should have in realm ranking system. Where Top tier players and "Spot awards" (this an award given out for doing something that is extraordinary) would receive loot from their own clansman for their performance.
Originally posted by Kyoruto Then don't play it then. Its really that simple. How does looting make excitement? I thought the fighting was the excitement but obviously I'm ignorant. And you want to base just your opinion on how everyone should play.. Here I'll actually put logic into why you don't loot armor. In say real medieval fighting... Since... I don't know... You're doing full contact to armor! No matter where you hit and eventually kill someone that means... You've broken their armor beyond repair! The only spoils of war there would be their horse (If they had one) or their weapon if it didn't get screwed up badly. So... ummm... go a head have a weapon that ISN'T superior to yours. Since you won and everything. Yeah, thats right crafting is going to become crap since you can make the best stuff from crafting and there is permadecay... So you're right there will be a massive influx of people having to recrate good weapons and thusly gives the economy its boost.
Darkfall just hasn't appealed to me. From the videos it seems clunky and everything looked the same when I saw it. I guess there are these undead guys... And I guess you can tell they are undead cause they wear bones for armor?
Siehst du mich Erkennst du mich Ganz tief in meinem Herz ist noch ein Platz f?r dich Ich suche dich Ich sehne mich nach dem was ich geliebt hab doch ich find es nicht
I played both kind of games: with looting and without it in PvP (UO, L2, DAoC).
I really dont think it adds more or less fun to PvP. L2 is the higest in pvp looting and I still think DAoC is much better than L2 in PvP (DAoC doesn't have loot in PvP).
Is the complexity of the game in the PvP what makes it fun, not the looting or not.
Comments
Yep. These are all concepts with live with in real life too. 'Scams' aren't exactly invented in online gaming. It takes maturity to accept this as a part of an working society.
Now, you could ofcourse throw the 'I want games to be fun' card. But this is ALSO fun. Why? You choose your route in life. Want to be a dishonest player, that scams and griefs? Want to be a succesfull merchant? Want to be an PvP, gate camper, pirate?
Imagine EVE without all this. It would be nothing but an Isk grinding game.
The fact that scams are legal, means you have to be sure what you invest in - Do background checks, look for similarities in the way this one is presented, as with previous scams etc.
Edit: More precisely, what i mean: A game with full looting and all out PvP breeds a mature community. Let's take WoW: Everyone can smacktalk you, and you can't pay them back. They can ninja from you, train mobs on you, scam you.. Basicly, you got no powers. You're a victim. The other guy only got his reputation at stakes, and he could just reroll if needed.
In a game like EVE, you don't reroll. If you're trying to do a scam, people will look at how old your character is. The older he is, the more he'll trust you. The older he is, the more skillpoints he got. So rerolling would mean.. Starting all over with skillpoints. Ofcourse, he could buy a new character, but others might find out. In the end, everything you do in EVE, is dangerous. Don't smacktalk someone, you could risk to loose your ship. It gives the victim a chance to come back and hit you where it hurts.
Full looting can work if the game is balanced around that. Ultima Online, for example, was a great game with open PvP and full looting. It was not difficullt to replace equipment that you lost and more than likely, you had a spare set in your bank ready anyway. However, Ultima Online only offered open PvP as a choice for the players. It happened every now and then and, yes, it was very exciting to fight in such a large risk vs reward environment.
The difference here though is that Warhammer Online will be a warzone. You will go out to fight and die... I am assuming here but death is probably not uncommon. In a game like DAoC or even WoW, you can die 20+ times in a day easily. You simply can't replace that kind of loss. The game is not balanced for full looting.
Siehst du mich
Erkennst du mich
Ganz tief in meinem Herz
ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
Ich suche dich
Ich sehne mich
nach dem was ich geliebt hab
doch ich find es nicht
Hardcore guys sure CRAI alot.
I guess winning in a fight isnt enough reason to pvp for you?
And yeah wow is so bad...thats why so many millions of people play it....and keep playing it.... its just terrible /sigh
Actually Eve is fine as long as you plan with the understanding of attrition. But basically Eve is fine because of its rewards system. Something like WoW or EQ with uber items that can take months to get simply cannot have pvp looting. No normal person wants to take a chance at losing something like that, only someone with a gambling problem would do that.
So you have a dichotomy you can have pvp looting but you must have a particular kind of item model. If you want to have the addictive uber item farm model ala WoW/EQ you can't have pvp looting.
Most great gear is hard to get. No reason for someone who has played 1 day and 1 year to have the same gear. Do you really want to invest hours and hours for some uber leet rare ass weapon to have it looted by 2 groups of people camping some place you need to go?
In WAR there's a great reason for PvP without "full" looting. All of the armor is class and race specific. Why would an Orc want to loot an Elf's armor??? Why would an Empire Warrior Priest want to loot a Dark Elf Witch Elf's ARmor???
Very good reason there for not full looting. So instead you can loot trophies off the body. like heads and such.
---------------------------------------------
I live to fight, and fight to live.
Look...
PvP and RvR are different things.
A good PvP maybe should allow corpse looting.
A good RvR maybe should allow realm looting.
Anyone
that played DAoC which was mythics first RvR game knows they did allow
Realm looting. If you beat a realm and looted them you got up to a 20%
damage mod that you keep until they beat and loot your realm. That is
20% extra damage on every attack you do from lvl 1-50. That translates
into 20% faster lvling or farming.
They also put in a dungeon
that only the winning realm could access. At one point, this dungeon
had THEE best equipment in the game.
The big benifit of RvR
compared to PvP - Unity. PvP rewards the best ganker or best ganker
guilds. Face it, if you can lose everything on a death you aren't
going to have many long lasting GvG battles. Also if your realm is
badly underpopulated you most likley won't PvP at all. If 50 enemies
are attacking and you only have 15 defenders what is the point of
losing you raid loot when you could just log.
RvR rewards
the most organized team. People are encouraged to defend because if
they don't they could lose their bonuses. Instead of if having it if
they don't pvp they are safe and if they do they may lose something.
I remember in DAoC anRelic raid would be attempted on us by an enemy and within 5mins you could do
/who 40-50 and see 90% of players in the defensive zones. That is they
were PvEing but suicided to go defend. People would also get word on
IM and log on to go defend.
I agree to a certain extent there needs to be some risk to dieing otherwise there is no pvp adrenanline rush liek you get in Eve online and other harder death penalty systems. Wow deaths are jokes and just makes for that zerg with no tactic mentality. "it's only death i can run right back" It's so bad noone res's in pvp there.
--------------------
10 million people play WoW but I have yet to find one who admits liking it?!"
"Aion has the grind of EQ, the PvP of DAoC, and the smooth playability of WoW."
I've found a good quote:
"First off, I played EQ - Rallos Zek, where we all ran around naked and PK each other. From there I went to DAOC and found the PvP that was much more fulfilling, large scale battles where guilds owned keeps. Since then I've been a big found of this style of PvP. WoW's PvP is also unfulfilling, its not tangable and the instances just reset. BGs are fun for a few runs but get old quick.
Anyways voted NO on looting armor off of someone, I dont need that to make PvP Epic for myself, had it in EQ Rallos Zek, and all it led too was naked pvping for the most part. It had its draw, and that draw died quickly enough."
Mythic has an idea with WAR and RvR, this idea is not compatible with harsh penalties. Harsh penalties would cripple the gameplay so much that they had to create a new mmorpg.
I think mythic found the middle, not too soft so that people wont do stupid moves but also not too harsh. Personally I believe that more and more companies will go that way (the middle). Potbs for instance, there are more colors then black and white you do not need 1337 penalties to have meaningful pvp.
Why would someone loot something that is made for another race and can't be worn by youre race. And like someone already said why loot a weapon if youre own weapon killed him and there for is better.
I rather like it that you need to repair youre stuff at a player crafter. And loot resources that can be sold to crafters. It keeps the player market healty.
Also on PvE why loot armour/weapons its the same it was not made for my race and my own stuff was better because i'm alive. And why it drops a good weapon/armour but not used it in that fight? I rather have it that it drops resources so you can sell it to crafters that make weapons/armour from it. It will make a selfcontaining player market. Like UO had.
Its more believable that it drops a resources then a good weapon/armour that he didn't use in a fight. Looting a ORC armour and try to wear it with a dwarf, doesn't make it believable. Resources on the other hand is believable because it could be that he was gathering it for his new armour/weapon.
Also when killing a animal and loot money from it isn't believable. Resources like skins our something else are.
A mmorpg needs a good player market, that was what made UO good. And some unique rewards from some very hard quests but that can break, so after a while it can be dropped again in a quest. (and are soulbound on pickup)
PvP gives you the rush of defeating someone and getting something good from it, but if you loot someones hard to get armour/weapon then the fun will be not that good. A penalty is a must like repair the armour/weapon but not losing it (only lose it when youre to stupid not to repair it after some fights)
Wrong, Eve takes far to long to build up your ship/skills and has timesinks that even power leveling cant over-come. If it takes 70 rl days to train a skill, it takes the skill out of the players hands.
No offense but the pvp crowd needs abit faster action. aka: Shadowbane , Counter-strike , Guild wars , NWN persistant worlds etc.
I have read exactly 3 posts in these forums and 2 things are obvious:
1.) Those who have never played a game above the mediocrity and mass appeal build of WoW (which I actively play), or even have only played WoW
2.) Those who have never played a quality Mythic product, most recognizeably DAoC which won numerous accolades for it's gameplay and systems and was only missing the lore and polish of a history like Warhammer.
Those who get it, will play WAR, those who don't will continue to play the watered down mass appeals and/or the gankers delights.
Darkfall the only real game (if it comes out)
Looting in PVP of equipment would make no sense. that is true other then for trophy sakes.
Instead PVP should have in realm ranking system. Where Top tier players and "Spot awards" (this an award given out for doing something that is extraordinary) would receive loot from their own clansman for their performance.
Faranthil Tanathalos
EverQuest 1 - Ranger
Star Wars Galaxies - Master Ranger
Everquest2 - Ranger WarhammerOnline - Shadow Warrior
WOW - Hunter
That's right I like bows and arrows.
Which FF Character Are You?
The shaft of the arrow had been
feathered with one of the eagle''s own plumes. We often give our enemies the means of our own destruction
What is this darkfall? Must look at the forums!
Siehst du mich
Erkennst du mich
Ganz tief in meinem Herz
ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
Ich suche dich
Ich sehne mich
nach dem was ich geliebt hab
doch ich find es nicht
I played both kind of games: with looting and without it in PvP (UO, L2, DAoC).
I really dont think it adds more or less fun to PvP. L2 is the higest in pvp looting and I still think DAoC is much better than L2 in PvP (DAoC doesn't have loot in PvP).
Is the complexity of the game in the PvP what makes it fun, not the looting or not.