Callmetoby, while i may be an "old man" I still enjoy playing games, golf, tennis, football and yes online games. Keep in mind that no matter your age we all work for the weekends, basically to have fun and play games.
I'm not quite up on all the "leet speak" but Im guessing anything that I didnt quite understand was a bad thing, lol. And yes I did call this a generation of carebearitis gimps which was uncalled for.
My problem is UO was my first online game which I played for like five years, then I went to SWG for like 2 years. I played a few in between like EVE, SB, ect and then finally WOW. I went from UO, skill based, full looting to SWG, semi-skill based (at the beggining you retrieved your corpse to get your stuff back) at the time it looked like they would implement looting. Finally WOW for like 4 or 5 months, no housing, simplistic crafting and basically everything was soulbound. It just seems like each game got less challenging with less depth with each passing game.
I went from total freedom to no freedom, the reason I say no freedom is because WOWs AI prevents you from leaving an area until you are a higher level, (creatures slaughter you if you leave to early).
You may or may not agree with looting, (my thinking is that if a guild declares war on another guild looting should be allowed) not open pvp. If your not in a war guild you shouldnt be able to be attacked ever.
In UO if I got killed it would take five minutes and a couple hundred gold pieces to gear up and be ready again. In WOW, depending on where you died it could take a half an hour to make that stupid ghost run. I'll take the five minutes everytime.
One final thing, I'm guessing that about half the mmorpg players out there starting playing on WOW and have never played a game with looting so maybe dont knock it until youve tried it ya might just like it or not. Dont bother saying it, Ill say it for ya. Why dont ya cut off your arm, if ya never tried it ya just might like it.
I wish I could see your point of view...I really do.
I played ffa mmos and I saw nothing spectacular. For example, in Shadowbane, you wouldnt LOSE gear when you were ganked, but the griefing and ganking just turned into a complete ammount of frustration.
Think about it, get ganked once.... "mmm ok uhm...should I go back to that same area or is that what they will expect me to do.....or are they just making the rounds and will move on and leave me alone or does this complete loser have nothing better to do than just harrass me alllll night long. Oh whats that you say? A guild helping me, well Im new and I dont have 4 thousand in game buddies or 10 high lvl alts".
People arent skeered of there in game toon dying. They like to make progress though. And if you get repeatedly corpse camped, ganked and stole from...how are you supposed to make progress in a reasonable ammount of time.
Would you enjoy driving to work when every 3 miles a tire blew out and you had to stop to change it. And then what do you do when you have no more tires? Or some thief came along stole one of your tires, bashed in your window, took your radio and your tire jack. You would call a friend right? Well what if you were in a new town and you didnt own a cell phone. THE FIRST CHANCE YOU GOT YOU WOULD GET THE HELL OUT OF THAT CITY.
And you can call them carebears all you want but those Carebears get out of your game and leave with there money. People want fun and they want challenge. I found that challenge in DAOC bgs and rvr. Ive found that challenge in WoWs pvp although not as rewarding as DAOC.
Games are games. People dont need to lose something to enjoy them. You gave the example of a casino. Well let me give you an example from my point of view.
I love basketball. When I go play pick up games I want to have fun and I want to win. I play as hard as I can every game until I cant play no more. I CARE about winning. I care about doing good and when I do well its enjoyable and if I dont Im still with friends (normally) that I have fun playing with. I dont need to have the possibility of losing my nike's as a penalty for doing poorly LOOMING over my head. That wouldnt make the game any more enjoyable.
And why should it be any different if Im playing an online game that Im spending money and time on. I play to win and I play to have fun. Sometimes you win, sometimes you dont. If Im with friends and were all doing our best and trying to compete to the best of our creative level but we still lose, I dont need to be penalized more than the fact that I KNOW THAT I LOST. Thats enough for me right there. That alone makes me want to do better and adapt quicker and play harder
Callmetoby, while i may be an "old man" I still enjoy playing games, golf, tennis, football and yes online games. Keep in mind that no matter your age we all work for the weekends, basically to have fun and play games.
I'm not quite up on all the "leet speak" but Im guessing anything that I didnt quite understand was a bad thing, lol. And yes I did call this a generation of carebearitis gimps which was uncalled for.
My problem is UO was my first online game which I played for like five years, then I went to SWG for like 2 years. I played a few in between like EVE, SB, ect and then finally WOW. I went from UO, skill based, full looting to SWG, semi-skill based (at the beggining you retrieved your corpse to get your stuff back) at the time it looked like they would implement looting. Finally WOW for like 4 or 5 months, no housing, simplistic crafting and basically everything was soulbound. It just seems like each game got less challenging with less depth with each passing game.
I went from total freedom to no freedom, the reason I say no freedom is because WOWs AI prevents you from leaving an area until you are a higher level, (creatures slaughter you if you leave to early).
You may or may not agree with looting, (my thinking is that if a guild declares war on another guild looting should be allowed) not open pvp. If your not in a war guild you shouldnt be able to be attacked ever.
In UO if I got killed it would take five minutes and a couple hundred gold pieces to gear up and be ready again. In WOW, depending on where you died it could take a half an hour to make that stupid ghost run. I'll take the five minutes everytime.
One final thing, I'm guessing that about half the mmorpg players out there starting playing on WOW and have never played a game with looting so maybe dont knock it until youve tried it ya might just like it or not. Dont bother saying it, Ill say it for ya. Why dont ya cut off your arm, if ya never tried it ya just might like it.
First off let me say that I dont' have a problem with your age itself. I had a friend in one of my old DAOC guilds that was older than you are and she was an incredibly cool person. What I meant was that I feel that your previous comments do not correlate with your age. Your opinion is valid, and I can see where you're coming from when you explain it this way rather than saying things like "Is there a point to pvp without full looting, the simple awnser is no". The only MMO I've ever really enjoyed long-term was DAOC, much like the only one you've really enjoyed is UO. Everything else I've played just got old fast...particularly WoW (which, I agree, was tripe). Thus the reason I'm following this game as closely as I am.
What I don't understand is why you're choosing to discuss it here. I realize everyone has a right to their opinion, but I'm just not sure what you're hoping to accomplish in this forum. To me it seems like it would be more appropriate for one of the general discussion forums, or even on a different game where what you're looking for is still a possibility. It's not a possibility in WAR. That leaves you arguing a moot point, which not only makes you frustrated, but also puts others back on their heels because they automatically assume, from the subject matter, that you're attacking something they support.
So what are your intentions? That, I guess, is what I'd like to know, or moreso, what you need to ask yourself before starting a thread like this. If you're just venting that's fine. Everybody needs to vent. This type of venting would be better received in a different setting, such as the ones suggested above. I vent all the time about how worthless I think WoW is, but I don't do it in the WoW forums because, firstly, they don't wanna hear it, and secondly, I'd end up just looking like an assbag. If you're hoping others will see your point, I think that is a very slim possibility here, given WAR's obvious appeal to this community.
Thank you for explaining yourself properly this time around. And I apologise for my bluntness in my previous post, but I thought it was something you needed to hear.
what is the purpose of looting a dead person when you can recieve trophies on your sheild etc to show what heroic fighter you are. I would have that rather than a few peices of gold or whatever the currency will be. Frankly, more people prefer no pvp looting rather than pvp looting as pvp looting would cause more uproar than no pvp looting
Originally posted by motiv3 what is the purpose of looting a dead person when you can recieve trophies on your sheild etc to show what heroic fighter you are. I would have that rather than a few peices of gold or whatever the currency will be. Frankly, more people prefer no pvp looting rather than pvp looting as pvp looting would cause more uproar than no pvp looting
Thank you for putting that into a small paragraph, that is exactly the point, the minority are for looting in pvp. And the minority doesn't have the voice to change things.Thats like me saying I wanna drive dragons, but no matter how hard I try, flyable dragons won't be in WAR.
all i have to say(if i havent posted here before i dont know theres a million of these topics)
In a fantasy game like war, it can get really repetitive having to go regear EVERY time you die. Since this is a pvp game, where your going to want to be pvping all the time.
Crafters had a purpose? ya thats why everyone and their cousin had crafter alts.
Crafters purpose should be making gear for people, not as a requirement to have in order to pvp on a regular basis, craftbots, like how daoc have buffbots.
And just for the record, looting doesnt make a game hard, it makes it "tedious" see the difference? you do? oh wow maybe now you guys can stop claiming you like hard games, because its a total lie!
Originally posted by Bladin all i have to say(if i havent posted here before i dont know theres a million of these topics)
In a fantasy game like war, it can get really repetitive having to go regear EVERY time you die. Since this is a pvp game, where your going to want to be pvping all the time.
Crafters had a purpose? ya thats why everyone and their cousin had crafter alts.
Crafters purpose should be making gear for people, not as a requirement to have in order to pvp on a regular basis, craftbots, like how daoc have buffbots.
And just for the record, looting doesnt make a game hard, it makes it "tedious" see the difference? you do? oh wow maybe now you guys can stop claiming you like hard games, because its a total lie!
Your post only outlines your inability to grasp the purpose of looting in PvP. It has nothing to do with making the game hard, or making the game tedious, or making crafters have purpose. Repeatitive? Are you for real? Zerg rush kekeke is repetitive, when someone dies and they lose something they are less likely to REPEAT the same mistake. Looting in combat is about making the person who died lose something. It's risk vs reward. If you risk nothing your reward is shit. The ultimate accomplishment is to win after sacrificing everything. The minority that want a good PvP system are the people who play MMOGs for the politics, war, and competition. I fought this flame war over and over on the WoW boards. I was naive back then I thought having no death penelty could work. WoW was proof that it can't and will never work. PvP must have meaning or it loses its apeal very quickly. Would you play poker if you had nothing to lose? No, in fact you cannot play poker without the risk of losing something. There must be a winner and there must be a loser and the winner must take a risk to win or there is no point.
The reasons a WARHAMMER universe will not have pvp looting:
1) It is a savage time, in which war models that of more modern day outlooks. In a war you,re pupose is to KILL the enemy, that is your only goal besides trying to stay alive. There's no time for scavaging corpses, and no purpose when you already have all the tools you need.
2) In Warhammer, the various armies hate eachother in such a degree, that they'd rather die then to 'lower' themselves to using any equipment, or eating any food that was owned by the enemy. You are 'above' them, you don't need there crap, it resembles another colture that you loath. So you die with your honor before you'll even pick up an enemies weapon to defend yourself.
3) Though this one doesn't fit completely in the Warhammer universe it is still important to note. No matter how evil an empire might be, in general, the majority of coltures have always had respect for the dead in the sense that what they die with is theirs, and shall remain theres. Even when you strike an enemy down, and even if you disagree with their way of life, most coltures will not take things from a dead body for both, as I said, honor, and/or superstisious fears.
Most people who are pointing out the flaw in a non-loot pvp system are only looking at it from a traditional MMO side, and not connecting with the gender. In table top game, you do not 'loot' a corpse, you keep killing, keep going, till all is dead, and then you either take their heads as trophies, or leave them there to rot like the skum they are.
You are also forgetting that you DO get rewarded in the form of 'bling.' Orc kills lots of dwarves, orc starts cutting the heads of the dwarves and wearing their skulls. Personaly, I'd rather be able to adorn my armor in some fastion that strikes fear into my enemy and lets them know that I've slaughtered their kind, and will do it again, then to have picked up some sword from a former soldier who was 'too weak' to have survived.
In general, I agree with a loot system, BUT I completely understand why there wouldn't be one in WAR, and why it would work. This game is more about the Role Playing sense of a war, rather than other ways.
Originally posted by Bladin all i have to say(if i havent posted here before i dont know theres a million of these topics)
In a fantasy game like war, it can get really repetitive having to go regear EVERY time you die. Since this is a pvp game, where your going to want to be pvping all the time.
Crafters had a purpose? ya thats why everyone and their cousin had crafter alts.
Crafters purpose should be making gear for people, not as a requirement to have in order to pvp on a regular basis, craftbots, like how daoc have buffbots.
And just for the record, looting doesnt make a game hard, it makes it "tedious" see the difference? you do? oh wow maybe now you guys can stop claiming you like hard games, because its a total lie!
Your post only outlines your inability to grasp the purpose of looting in PvP. It has nothing to do with making the game hard, or making the game tedious, or making crafters have purpose. Repeatitive? Are you for real? Zerg rush kekeke is repetitive, when someone dies and they lose something they are less likely to REPEAT the same mistake. Looting in combat is about making the person who died lose something. It's risk vs reward. If you risk nothing your reward is shit. The ultimate accomplishment is to win after sacrificing everything. The minority that want a good PvP system are the people who play MMOGs for the politics, war, and competition. I fought this flame war over and over on the WoW boards. I was naive back then I thought having no death penelty could work. WoW was proof that it can't and will never work. PvP must have meaning or it loses its apeal very quickly. Would you play poker if you had nothing to lose? No, in fact you cannot play poker without the risk of losing something. There must be a winner and there must be a loser and the winner must take a risk to win or there is no point.
And your post only outlines your inability to grasp the fact that you are arguing a moot point. I'm done with arguing over the differences of opinion on this thread. What irritates me at this point is peoples' insistance on beating this dead horse when PvP looting is not an issue. It won't be in WAR. Bickering the issue won't change that...especially on this site. Most people in this forum don't see your point. I daresay most people don't care to. I somewhat see the basis for your reasoning behind what you believe, because I think there needs to be some type of penalty for death in PvP (not necessarily losing your gear) even if it's only temporary. That is something Mythic is working on with the death penalty. Quoting Mark Jacobs;
The death penalty is not going to act as a way to punish the player for playing the game. It is there to:
1) Prevent players from playing "whack-a-mole" in PvP.
2) Discourage people from griefing.
3) Adding some edge to the playing of the game.
So while you have somewhat of a valid point, it is not the only way to go about solving the problems you have pointed out. There is rarely a single "be-all end-all" solution to any problem. PvP looting is not the single solution to this problem, but it's the only solution you see. A good developer is able to approach issues from many different angles in order to reach a final decision that is going to offer a fair and enjoyable experience for everyone. So while you see this as a problem with only one solution, the devs see the problem as well and are working on alterternative methods to reach the conclusion you desire.
But as far as arguing who is right and who is wrong, as I told Havoc before, it's really an irrelevent subject when it comes to this game. There is no right and wrong. You like what you like. If you plan on playing WAR, yer gonna have to deal with this aspect of it. If you don't plan on playing WAR, I suggest ranting about this elsewhere with like-minded people who appreciate it. Otherwise you're just stirring the pot and wasting your breath.
Originally posted by callmetoby Originally posted by Zeknichov Originally posted by Bladin all i have to say(if i havent posted here before i dont know theres a million of these topics)
In a fantasy game like war, it can get really repetitive having to go regear EVERY time you die. Since this is a pvp game, where your going to want to be pvping all the time.
Crafters had a purpose? ya thats why everyone and their cousin had crafter alts.
Crafters purpose should be making gear for people, not as a requirement to have in order to pvp on a regular basis, craftbots, like how daoc have buffbots.
And just for the record, looting doesnt make a game hard, it makes it "tedious" see the difference? you do? oh wow maybe now you guys can stop claiming you like hard games, because its a total lie!
Your post only outlines your inability to grasp the purpose of looting in PvP. It has nothing to do with making the game hard, or making the game tedious, or making crafters have purpose. Repeatitive? Are you for real? Zerg rush kekeke is repetitive, when someone dies and they lose something they are less likely to REPEAT the same mistake. Looting in combat is about making the person who died lose something. It's risk vs reward. If you risk nothing your reward is shit. The ultimate accomplishment is to win after sacrificing everything. The minority that want a good PvP system are the people who play MMOGs for the politics, war, and competition. I fought this flame war over and over on the WoW boards. I was naive back then I thought having no death penelty could work. WoW was proof that it can't and will never work. PvP must have meaning or it loses its apeal very quickly. Would you play poker if you had nothing to lose? No, in fact you cannot play poker without the risk of losing something. There must be a winner and there must be a loser and the winner must take a risk to win or there is no point.
And your post only outlines your inability to grasp the fact that you are arguing a moot point. I'm done with arguing over the differences of opinion on this thread. What irritates me at this point is peoples' insistance on beating this dead horse when PvP looting is not an issue. It won't be in WAR. Bickering the issue won't change that...especially on this site. Most people in this forum don't see your point. I daresay most people don't care to. I somewhat see the basis for your reasoning behind what you believe, because I think there needs to be some type of penalty for death in PvP (not necessarily losing your gear) even if it's only temporary. That is something Mythic is working on with the death penalty. Quoting Mark Jacobs;
The death penalty is not going to act as a way to punish the player for playing the game. It is there to:
1) Prevent players from playing "whack-a-mole" in PvP.
2) Discourage people from griefing.
3) Adding some edge to the playing of the game.
So while you have somewhat of a valid point, it is not the only way to go about solving the problems you have pointed out. There is rarely a single "be-all end-all" solution to any problem. PvP looting is not the single solution to this problem, but it's the only solution you see. A good developer is able to approach issues from many different angles in order to reach a final decision that is going to offer a fair and enjoyable experience for everyone. So while you see this as a problem with only one solution, the devs see the problem as well and are working on alterternative methods to reach the conclusion you desire.
But as far as arguing who is right and who is wrong, as I told Havoc before, it's really an irrelevent subject when it comes to this game. There is no right and wrong. You like what you like. If you plan on playing WAR, yer gonna have to deal with this aspect of it. If you don't plan on playing WAR, I suggest ranting about this elsewhere with like-minded people who appreciate it. Otherwise you're just stirring the pot and wasting your breath.
I agree with you. If you read one of my earlier points I say that looting isn't the only option. It's a option but not the only one. I've yet to see a sucessfull implementation of anything except looting because every game claims they will have some means to solve the problems which arise from having no looting yet I never see it work. Maybe I will be shown wrong, and I hope I am for both our interests.
Originally posted by Zeknichov Originally posted by callmetoby Originally posted by Zeknichov Originally posted by Bladin all i have to say(if i havent posted here before i dont know theres a million of these topics)
In a fantasy game like war, it can get really repetitive having to go regear EVERY time you die. Since this is a pvp game, where your going to want to be pvping all the time.
Crafters had a purpose? ya thats why everyone and their cousin had crafter alts.
Crafters purpose should be making gear for people, not as a requirement to have in order to pvp on a regular basis, craftbots, like how daoc have buffbots.
And just for the record, looting doesnt make a game hard, it makes it "tedious" see the difference? you do? oh wow maybe now you guys can stop claiming you like hard games, because its a total lie!
Your post only outlines your inability to grasp the purpose of looting in PvP. It has nothing to do with making the game hard, or making the game tedious, or making crafters have purpose. Repeatitive? Are you for real? Zerg rush kekeke is repetitive, when someone dies and they lose something they are less likely to REPEAT the same mistake. Looting in combat is about making the person who died lose something. It's risk vs reward. If you risk nothing your reward is shit. The ultimate accomplishment is to win after sacrificing everything. The minority that want a good PvP system are the people who play MMOGs for the politics, war, and competition. I fought this flame war over and over on the WoW boards. I was naive back then I thought having no death penelty could work. WoW was proof that it can't and will never work. PvP must have meaning or it loses its apeal very quickly. Would you play poker if you had nothing to lose? No, in fact you cannot play poker without the risk of losing something. There must be a winner and there must be a loser and the winner must take a risk to win or there is no point.
And your post only outlines your inability to grasp the fact that you are arguing a moot point. I'm done with arguing over the differences of opinion on this thread. What irritates me at this point is peoples' insistance on beating this dead horse when PvP looting is not an issue. It won't be in WAR. Bickering the issue won't change that...especially on this site. Most people in this forum don't see your point. I daresay most people don't care to. I somewhat see the basis for your reasoning behind what you believe, because I think there needs to be some type of penalty for death in PvP (not necessarily losing your gear) even if it's only temporary. That is something Mythic is working on with the death penalty. Quoting Mark Jacobs;
The death penalty is not going to act as a way to punish the player for playing the game. It is there to:
1) Prevent players from playing "whack-a-mole" in PvP.
2) Discourage people from griefing.
3) Adding some edge to the playing of the game.
So while you have somewhat of a valid point, it is not the only way to go about solving the problems you have pointed out. There is rarely a single "be-all end-all" solution to any problem. PvP looting is not the single solution to this problem, but it's the only solution you see. A good developer is able to approach issues from many different angles in order to reach a final decision that is going to offer a fair and enjoyable experience for everyone. So while you see this as a problem with only one solution, the devs see the problem as well and are working on alterternative methods to reach the conclusion you desire.
But as far as arguing who is right and who is wrong, as I told Havoc before, it's really an irrelevent subject when it comes to this game. There is no right and wrong. You like what you like. If you plan on playing WAR, yer gonna have to deal with this aspect of it. If you don't plan on playing WAR, I suggest ranting about this elsewhere with like-minded people who appreciate it. Otherwise you're just stirring the pot and wasting your breath.
I agree with you. If you read one of my earlier points I say that looting isn't the only option. It's a option but not the only one. I've yet to see a sucessfull implementation of anything except looting because every game claims they will have some means to solve the problems which arise from having no looting yet I never see it work. Maybe I will be shown wrong, and I hope I am for both our interests. Just wanted to point out something about your point about poker. Hundreds of thousands of people play poker all the time for the reason that they're not going to lose anything. That's why those free poker sites are always flooded with people playing.
To get back to your point that looting isn't the answer, I think WAR has hit the nail on the head with PvP. Trophies and City Sieges.
The trophies idea particularly. There's nothing I can think of that is more gratifying than for the other person to see you and immediately "know" for a fact that you have slayed countless numbers of his companions based on the trophies you wear on your armor.
City Sieges as well. I don't think anything is going to be more epic and fun-filled than the city sieges and taking over the zones to get to the city that you're going to siege. I don't think it's looting that gives reason to PvP, but purpose itself that gives reason to PvP. If you think that your actions are going to affect the game, i.e. "If I don't kill this guy we lose this zone, or if I do kill this guy we win this zone."
To me just knowing that killing legions of dwarfs is going to move my greenskin horde close to their capital city, makes me want to immediately start cutting some dwarfs up.
--------------------------------------------- I live to fight, and fight to live.
I think everyone is missng the point these guys are trying to make. Originally I thought "These people are stupid griefers. They should die in a fire.". But after reasonable explanation I saw their point. I think if it would have been explained rationally to begin with then this wouldn't have gone on as long as it has.
They're not saying "Looting has to be in the game because we wanna take all your shit for free". That's not the case at all. They're saying that (in their eyes) if a game doesn't have looting, there is no consequence in PvP death.
So, for example, say an army is laying siege to an enemy stronghold and the attackers keep dying. With the current state of some games, they can just keep throwing themselves at the enemy over and over and over again with no penalty (think WoW battlegrounds ). Wave after wave of the same people...kill them once, they return 20 seconds later as fit as ever. This goes on for however long it takes for the stronghold to fall. There is no consequence for dying, thus it's a monotonous stream of lemmings just chasing one another to their death, only to be resurrected to do it all over again. This, in effect, makes defense of that stronghold futile, as defenders really have no chance in driving them off.
They have a valid point. They are not being loot whores, griefers, lamers or (insert derogatory gaming slur here), but the problem lies in the narrow scope of their view that looting is the only solution. Much like the narrow views many of us express in saying "looting is stupid" because we just don't like the thought of it. That's like saying "I like red. Red is the only color that I ever wear. Your shirt is blue...you must be retarded".
If you look at the root of the issue, the developers are saying the same thing as these guys who are pro-looting. They both believe there needs to be some type of penalty for death in PvP in order to, as Mark Jacobs said in my previous post, "prevent players from playing 'whack-a-mole' in PvP".
So the idea is the same, but the method in approaching the problem is the difference. Looting is a viable option to achieve the result the devs are after, but they are not going that route. Maybe it's because it appeals to the majority, maybe it's because they don't like it themselves or maybe they feel like being innovative. Regardless of which is the case, the fact is the devs DO see the point these people have. So in closing I make two points.
To those who believe there needs to be consequences for death in PvP; the developers are with you and are implementing a death penalty to prevent mindless "kamikaze" fighting.
To those who believe looting is stupid; it isn't stupid, it's just not what we prefer.
The issue has been addressed by Mythic. They have decided there are other methods to achieve this goal. That being said, I think I'm finally done with this thread as anything else I have to say will be repetitive. G'day.
Comments
Callmetoby, while i may be an "old man" I still enjoy playing games, golf, tennis, football and yes online games. Keep in mind that no matter your age we all work for the weekends, basically to have fun and play games.
I'm not quite up on all the "leet speak" but Im guessing anything that I didnt quite understand was a bad thing, lol. And yes I did call this a generation of carebearitis gimps which was uncalled for.
My problem is UO was my first online game which I played for like five years, then I went to SWG for like 2 years. I played a few in between like EVE, SB, ect and then finally WOW. I went from UO, skill based, full looting to SWG, semi-skill based (at the beggining you retrieved your corpse to get your stuff back) at the time it looked like they would implement looting. Finally WOW for like 4 or 5 months, no housing, simplistic crafting and basically everything was soulbound. It just seems like each game got less challenging with less depth with each passing game.
I went from total freedom to no freedom, the reason I say no freedom is because WOWs AI prevents you from leaving an area until you are a higher level, (creatures slaughter you if you leave to early).
You may or may not agree with looting, (my thinking is that if a guild declares war on another guild looting should be allowed) not open pvp. If your not in a war guild you shouldnt be able to be attacked ever.
In UO if I got killed it would take five minutes and a couple hundred gold pieces to gear up and be ready again. In WOW, depending on where you died it could take a half an hour to make that stupid ghost run. I'll take the five minutes everytime.
One final thing, I'm guessing that about half the mmorpg players out there starting playing on WOW and have never played a game with looting so maybe dont knock it until youve tried it ya might just like it or not. Dont bother saying it, Ill say it for ya. Why dont ya cut off your arm, if ya never tried it ya just might like it.
I wish I could see your point of view...I really do.
I played ffa mmos and I saw nothing spectacular. For example, in Shadowbane, you wouldnt LOSE gear when you were ganked, but the griefing and ganking just turned into a complete ammount of frustration.
Think about it, get ganked once....
"mmm ok uhm...should I go back to that same area or is that what they will expect me to do.....or are they just making the rounds and will move on and leave me alone or does this complete loser have nothing better to do than just harrass me alllll night long. Oh whats that you say? A guild helping me, well Im new and I dont have 4 thousand in game buddies or 10 high lvl alts".
People arent skeered of there in game toon dying. They like to make progress though. And if you get repeatedly corpse camped, ganked and stole from...how are you supposed to make progress in a reasonable ammount of time.
Would you enjoy driving to work when every 3 miles a tire blew out and you had to stop to change it. And then what do you do when you have no more tires? Or some thief came along stole one of your tires, bashed in your window, took your radio and your tire jack. You would call a friend right? Well what if you were in a new town and you didnt own a cell phone. THE FIRST CHANCE YOU GOT YOU WOULD GET THE HELL OUT OF THAT CITY.
And you can call them carebears all you want but those Carebears get out of your game and leave with there money. People want fun and they want challenge. I found that challenge in DAOC bgs and rvr. Ive found that challenge in WoWs pvp although not as rewarding as DAOC.
Games are games. People dont need to lose something to enjoy them. You gave the example of a casino. Well let me give you an example from my point of view.
I love basketball. When I go play pick up games I want to have fun and I want to win. I play as hard as I can every game until I cant play no more. I CARE about winning. I care about doing good and when I do well its enjoyable and if I dont Im still with friends (normally) that I have fun playing with. I dont need to have the possibility of losing my nike's as a penalty for doing poorly LOOMING over my head. That wouldnt make the game any more enjoyable.
And why should it be any different if Im playing an online game that Im spending money and time on. I play to win and I play to have fun. Sometimes you win, sometimes you dont. If Im with friends and were all doing our best and trying to compete to the best of our creative level but we still lose, I dont need to be penalized more than the fact that I KNOW THAT I LOST. Thats enough for me right there. That alone makes me want to do better and adapt quicker and play harder
First off let me say that I dont' have a problem with your age itself. I had a friend in one of my old DAOC guilds that was older than you are and she was an incredibly cool person. What I meant was that I feel that your previous comments do not correlate with your age. Your opinion is valid, and I can see where you're coming from when you explain it this way rather than saying things like "Is there a point to pvp without full looting, the simple awnser is no". The only MMO I've ever really enjoyed long-term was DAOC, much like the only one you've really enjoyed is UO. Everything else I've played just got old fast...particularly WoW (which, I agree, was tripe). Thus the reason I'm following this game as closely as I am.
What I don't understand is why you're choosing to discuss it here. I realize everyone has a right to their opinion, but I'm just not sure what you're hoping to accomplish in this forum. To me it seems like it would be more appropriate for one of the general discussion forums, or even on a different game where what you're looking for is still a possibility. It's not a possibility in WAR. That leaves you arguing a moot point, which not only makes you frustrated, but also puts others back on their heels because they automatically assume, from the subject matter, that you're attacking something they support.
So what are your intentions? That, I guess, is what I'd like to know, or moreso, what you need to ask yourself before starting a thread like this. If you're just venting that's fine. Everybody needs to vent. This type of venting would be better received in a different setting, such as the ones suggested above. I vent all the time about how worthless I think WoW is, but I don't do it in the WoW forums because, firstly, they don't wanna hear it, and secondly, I'd end up just looking like an assbag. If you're hoping others will see your point, I think that is a very slim possibility here, given WAR's obvious appeal to this community.
Thank you for explaining yourself properly this time around. And I apologise for my bluntness in my previous post, but I thought it was something you needed to hear.
Proud Member of Mongbat
Thank you for putting that into a small paragraph, that is exactly the point, the minority are for looting in pvp. And the minority doesn't have the voice to change things.Thats like me saying I wanna drive dragons, but no matter how hard I try, flyable dragons won't be in WAR.
all i have to say(if i havent posted here before i dont know theres a million of these topics)
In a fantasy game like war, it can get really repetitive having to go regear EVERY time you die. Since this is a pvp game, where your going to want to be pvping all the time.
Crafters had a purpose? ya thats why everyone and their cousin had crafter alts.
Crafters purpose should be making gear for people, not as a requirement to have in order to pvp on a regular basis, craftbots, like how daoc have buffbots.
And just for the record, looting doesnt make a game hard, it makes it "tedious" see the difference? you do? oh wow maybe now you guys can stop claiming you like hard games, because its a total lie!
1) It is a savage time, in which war models that of more modern day outlooks. In a war you,re pupose is to KILL the enemy, that is your only goal besides trying to stay alive. There's no time for scavaging corpses, and no purpose when you already have all the tools you need.
2) In Warhammer, the various armies hate eachother in such a degree, that they'd rather die then to 'lower' themselves to using any equipment, or eating any food that was owned by the enemy. You are 'above' them, you don't need there crap, it resembles another colture that you loath. So you die with your honor before you'll even pick up an enemies weapon to defend yourself.
3) Though this one doesn't fit completely in the Warhammer universe it is still important to note. No matter how evil an empire might be, in general, the majority of coltures have always had respect for the dead in the sense that what they die with is theirs, and shall remain theres. Even when you strike an enemy down, and even if you disagree with their way of life, most coltures will not take things from a dead body for both, as I said, honor, and/or superstisious fears.
Most people who are pointing out the flaw in a non-loot pvp system are only looking at it from a traditional MMO side, and not connecting with the gender. In table top game, you do not 'loot' a corpse, you keep killing, keep going, till all is dead, and then you either take their heads as trophies, or leave them there to rot like the skum they are.
You are also forgetting that you DO get rewarded in the form of 'bling.' Orc kills lots of dwarves, orc starts cutting the heads of the dwarves and wearing their skulls. Personaly, I'd rather be able to adorn my armor in some fastion that strikes fear into my enemy and lets them know that I've slaughtered their kind, and will do it again, then to have picked up some sword from a former soldier who was 'too weak' to have survived.
In general, I agree with a loot system, BUT I completely understand why there wouldn't be one in WAR, and why it would work. This game is more about the Role Playing sense of a war, rather than other ways.
Top Ten Most Misused Words/Phrases in MMO Industry...
And your post only outlines your inability to grasp the fact that you are arguing a moot point. I'm done with arguing over the differences of opinion on this thread. What irritates me at this point is peoples' insistance on beating this dead horse when PvP looting is not an issue. It won't be in WAR. Bickering the issue won't change that...especially on this site. Most people in this forum don't see your point. I daresay most people don't care to. I somewhat see the basis for your reasoning behind what you believe, because I think there needs to be some type of penalty for death in PvP (not necessarily losing your gear) even if it's only temporary. That is something Mythic is working on with the death penalty. Quoting Mark Jacobs;
The death penalty is not going to act as a way to punish the player for playing the game. It is there to:
1) Prevent players from playing "whack-a-mole" in PvP.
2) Discourage people from griefing.
3) Adding some edge to the playing of the game.
So while you have somewhat of a valid point, it is not the only way to go about solving the problems you have pointed out. There is rarely a single "be-all end-all" solution to any problem. PvP looting is not the single solution to this problem, but it's the only solution you see. A good developer is able to approach issues from many different angles in order to reach a final decision that is going to offer a fair and enjoyable experience for everyone. So while you see this as a problem with only one solution, the devs see the problem as well and are working on alterternative methods to reach the conclusion you desire.
But as far as arguing who is right and who is wrong, as I told Havoc before, it's really an irrelevent subject when it comes to this game. There is no right and wrong. You like what you like. If you plan on playing WAR, yer gonna have to deal with this aspect of it. If you don't plan on playing WAR, I suggest ranting about this elsewhere with like-minded people who appreciate it. Otherwise you're just stirring the pot and wasting your breath.
Proud Member of Mongbat
And your post only outlines your inability to grasp the fact that you are arguing a moot point. I'm done with arguing over the differences of opinion on this thread. What irritates me at this point is peoples' insistance on beating this dead horse when PvP looting is not an issue. It won't be in WAR. Bickering the issue won't change that...especially on this site. Most people in this forum don't see your point. I daresay most people don't care to. I somewhat see the basis for your reasoning behind what you believe, because I think there needs to be some type of penalty for death in PvP (not necessarily losing your gear) even if it's only temporary. That is something Mythic is working on with the death penalty. Quoting Mark Jacobs;
The death penalty is not going to act as a way to punish the player for playing the game. It is there to:
1) Prevent players from playing "whack-a-mole" in PvP.
2) Discourage people from griefing.
3) Adding some edge to the playing of the game.
So while you have somewhat of a valid point, it is not the only way to go about solving the problems you have pointed out. There is rarely a single "be-all end-all" solution to any problem. PvP looting is not the single solution to this problem, but it's the only solution you see. A good developer is able to approach issues from many different angles in order to reach a final decision that is going to offer a fair and enjoyable experience for everyone. So while you see this as a problem with only one solution, the devs see the problem as well and are working on alterternative methods to reach the conclusion you desire.
But as far as arguing who is right and who is wrong, as I told Havoc before, it's really an irrelevent subject when it comes to this game. There is no right and wrong. You like what you like. If you plan on playing WAR, yer gonna have to deal with this aspect of it. If you don't plan on playing WAR, I suggest ranting about this elsewhere with like-minded people who appreciate it. Otherwise you're just stirring the pot and wasting your breath.
I agree with you. If you read one of my earlier points I say that looting isn't the only option. It's a option but not the only one. I've yet to see a sucessfull implementation of anything except looting because every game claims they will have some means to solve the problems which arise from having no looting yet I never see it work. Maybe I will be shown wrong, and I hope I am for both our interests.
And your post only outlines your inability to grasp the fact that you are arguing a moot point. I'm done with arguing over the differences of opinion on this thread. What irritates me at this point is peoples' insistance on beating this dead horse when PvP looting is not an issue. It won't be in WAR. Bickering the issue won't change that...especially on this site. Most people in this forum don't see your point. I daresay most people don't care to. I somewhat see the basis for your reasoning behind what you believe, because I think there needs to be some type of penalty for death in PvP (not necessarily losing your gear) even if it's only temporary. That is something Mythic is working on with the death penalty. Quoting Mark Jacobs;
The death penalty is not going to act as a way to punish the player for playing the game. It is there to:
1) Prevent players from playing "whack-a-mole" in PvP.
2) Discourage people from griefing.
3) Adding some edge to the playing of the game.
So while you have somewhat of a valid point, it is not the only way to go about solving the problems you have pointed out. There is rarely a single "be-all end-all" solution to any problem. PvP looting is not the single solution to this problem, but it's the only solution you see. A good developer is able to approach issues from many different angles in order to reach a final decision that is going to offer a fair and enjoyable experience for everyone. So while you see this as a problem with only one solution, the devs see the problem as well and are working on alterternative methods to reach the conclusion you desire.
But as far as arguing who is right and who is wrong, as I told Havoc before, it's really an irrelevent subject when it comes to this game. There is no right and wrong. You like what you like. If you plan on playing WAR, yer gonna have to deal with this aspect of it. If you don't plan on playing WAR, I suggest ranting about this elsewhere with like-minded people who appreciate it. Otherwise you're just stirring the pot and wasting your breath.
I agree with you. If you read one of my earlier points I say that looting isn't the only option. It's a option but not the only one. I've yet to see a sucessfull implementation of anything except looting because every game claims they will have some means to solve the problems which arise from having no looting yet I never see it work. Maybe I will be shown wrong, and I hope I am for both our interests.
Just wanted to point out something about your point about poker. Hundreds of thousands of people play poker all the time for the reason that they're not going to lose anything. That's why those free poker sites are always flooded with people playing.
To get back to your point that looting isn't the answer, I think WAR has hit the nail on the head with PvP. Trophies and City Sieges.
The trophies idea particularly. There's nothing I can think of that is more gratifying than for the other person to see you and immediately "know" for a fact that you have slayed countless numbers of his companions based on the trophies you wear on your armor.
City Sieges as well. I don't think anything is going to be more epic and fun-filled than the city sieges and taking over the zones to get to the city that you're going to siege. I don't think it's looting that gives reason to PvP, but purpose itself that gives reason to PvP. If you think that your actions are going to affect the game, i.e. "If I don't kill this guy we lose this zone, or if I do kill this guy we win this zone."
To me just knowing that killing legions of dwarfs is going to move my greenskin horde close to their capital city, makes me want to immediately start cutting some dwarfs up.
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I live to fight, and fight to live.
I think everyone is missng the point these guys are trying to make. Originally I thought "These people are stupid griefers. They should die in a fire.". But after reasonable explanation I saw their point. I think if it would have been explained rationally to begin with then this wouldn't have gone on as long as it has.
They're not saying "Looting has to be in the game because we wanna take all your shit for free". That's not the case at all. They're saying that (in their eyes) if a game doesn't have looting, there is no consequence in PvP death.
So, for example, say an army is laying siege to an enemy stronghold and the attackers keep dying. With the current state of some games, they can just keep throwing themselves at the enemy over and over and over again with no penalty (think WoW battlegrounds
). Wave after wave of the same people...kill them once, they return 20 seconds later as fit as ever. This goes on for however long it takes for the stronghold to fall. There is no consequence for dying, thus it's a monotonous stream of lemmings just chasing one another to their death, only to be resurrected to do it all over again. This, in effect, makes defense of that stronghold futile, as defenders really have no chance in driving them off.
They have a valid point. They are not being loot whores, griefers, lamers or (insert derogatory gaming slur here), but the problem lies in the narrow scope of their view that looting is the only solution. Much like the narrow views many of us express in saying "looting is stupid" because we just don't like the thought of it. That's like saying "I like red. Red is the only color that I ever wear. Your shirt is blue...you must be retarded".
If you look at the root of the issue, the developers are saying the same thing as these guys who are pro-looting. They both believe there needs to be some type of penalty for death in PvP in order to, as Mark Jacobs said in my previous post, "prevent players from playing 'whack-a-mole' in PvP".
So the idea is the same, but the method in approaching the problem is the difference. Looting is a viable option to achieve the result the devs are after, but they are not going that route. Maybe it's because it appeals to the majority, maybe it's because they don't like it themselves or maybe they feel like being innovative. Regardless of which is the case, the fact is the devs DO see the point these people have. So in closing I make two points.
The issue has been addressed by Mythic. They have decided there are other methods to achieve this goal. That being said, I think I'm finally done with this thread as anything else I have to say will be repetitive. G'day.
Proud Member of Mongbat
The funny thing isn't the looting it's the killing.
I just wanted to say that, probably like 40 peeps has said that before me but I didn't feel for reading all that text through.