According to every poll I've seen, roughly a third of mmorpg players want looting in concensual PVP, (as in guild-vs-guild). So if theres 20 million mmorpg players out there, thats an untapped market of 6 million players. The reason I say untapped is because the game would have to be good, which right now consists of the old classic UO with 2d grafix, with most of today players preferring pretty grafix instead of good gameplay.
I dont agree with the 1/3 number at all. If that was the case then why when UO went with the trammel (no looting) patch felucca (full looting area) was a desolate wasteland. Just to get people to go to PVP areas in the game they had to implement item Insurance which basically prevents looting.
I think the question doesnt say the consequence. Making a poll asking if people want looting in PVP, is like asking people if they want more money. Sure they want more loot. The real question is what are they willing to give up to get what they want. Are they willing to have a game that revolves around people ganking everyone 10v1 as they go through portals and gates all day long, and a game where you would permanantly lose your best items if you lag out. That 1/3 number would probably go down to 5%.
A majority of game players do not want open looting. Its a simple fact. Sure, UO had it when the game came out, but they took it away. UO was a modest commercial success, EQ came out and was a rousing one. Sure, there are games with open looting still, Eve comes to mind, but they are not the dominant forces in the market.
I wouldn't care if I lost my gear if it wasn't too hard to replace. But no way do I want to spend 20 hours saving up the cash/mats to get a good weapon only to lose it in a 1 minute pvp fight.
Even Lineage 2 recently decided to do away with the drop system....they finally figured out people just don't want it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Why are people still arguing over looting other peoples' gear when it's not going to be in this game? Opinions on whether it should or shouldn't be in the game don't matter at this point...because again...it won't be in this game. Let it die.
Fighting is the fun in PvP not the looting. I did love what L2 did with making u have karma and chance of drop when red. lol that was fun as hell. But looting n pvp is stupid.
Originally posted by havocthefirs According to every poll I've seen, roughly a third of mmorpg players want looting in concensual PVP, (as in guild-vs-guild). So if theres 20 million mmorpg players out there, thats an untapped market of 6 million players. The reason I say untapped is because the game would have to be good, which right now consists of the old classic UO with 2d grafix, with most of today players preferring pretty grafix instead of good gameplay.
I dont agree with the 1/3 number at all. If that was the case then why when UO went with the trammel (no looting) patch felucca (full looting area) was a desolate wasteland. Just to get people to go to PVP areas in the game they had to implement item Insurance which basically prevents looting.
I think the question doesnt say the consequence. Making a poll asking if people want looting in PVP, is like asking people if they want more money. Sure they want more loot. The real question is what are they willing to give up to get what they want. Are they willing to have a game that revolves around people ganking everyone 10v1 as they go through portals and gates all day long, and a game where you would permanantly lose your best items if you lag out. That 1/3 number would probably go down to 5%.
There is full looting in trammel the same as fellucca, the reasons for felluccas downfall were, 1) Housing was impossible to come by, an example would be a well placed house outside of a major city sold on ebay for like $500.00. 2) PK's were more rare than a vanq halbert, keep in mind there was a 20% stat loss if a pk was killed which translated into a few months grinding. There were reds of course but you never had to worry they would attack because it took 40 hours to work off a murder, you had more to fear that a blue would open up on you. In trammel blues could'nt attack and reds were'nt allowed. 3) The aos patch was the nail in felluccas coffin, they took away the penalty for murder and it became open season.
As far as consequences, you will probably win as much as you lose. As far as ganking I'll use WOW as an example since most of us have at least tried to play that sad excuse for a mmorpg. Allthough I only played it a few months, it was the most gank-centric game I've ever played, plus the stupidity of having to run to your corpse to be revived, which led to the thrilling corpse-camping, no one ever camped an empty corpse in UO.
I understand that WOW started something like 10 on 10 instances, kinda like roll the dice and see who rolls a six. Besides people were doing that back in UO and it was'nt a so called FEATURE of the game that you needed to have spoon fed to to you.
The 1/3 number is a true number, but if as you say many people would shy away from full looting in consensual pvp and the number would drop to 5% thats still one million customers. At an average of $15.00 a month subscription fee per person thats a tidy 15 million a month. I think warhammer would be more than happy to pull down that kind of cash. Reguardless of wether you pro or con looting, game dynamics will make or break a game. If this game ends up being an eq/wow clone and does'nt institute looting just to do things differently, whos going to bother playing a game thats already out there?
Uncertainty is excitement. The fear of winning or losing personal property is exciting. If I run into a hundred enemy players and I know without a doubt I will lose nothing, why would I care? As proof of the excitement of winning or losing personal property. Take two hundred fake dollars and play rullette on your computer where theres nothing to win or lose. Now take two hundred real dollars and go to the casinos and play there. Even if you lose you cant tell me you were'nt thrilled hoping that little marble would drop on your number.
Originally posted by havocthefirs Uncertainty is excitement. The fear of winning or losing personal property is exciting. If I run into a hundred enemy players and I know without a doubt I will lose nothing, why would I care? As proof of the excitement of winning or losing personal property.
that's your opinion, but tell me your opinion of walking out of a dungeon or something, and bang! getting 1-shoted and all the items you worked for in that dungeon for the last 2 hours were gone... in 1 shot.. gee.. that was terrific! i want more!
Originally posted by havocthefirs Uncertainty is excitement. The fear of winning or losing personal property is exciting. If I run into a hundred enemy players and I know without a doubt I will lose nothing, why would I care? As proof of the excitement of winning or losing personal property.
that's your opinion, but tell me your opinion of walking out of a dungeon or something, and bang! getting 1-shoted and all the items you worked for in that dungeon for the last 2 hours were gone... in 1 shot.. gee.. that was terrific! i want more!
Gotta go with kord, yea that might seem exciting, but your more likely to get ganked and one shotted.
Originally posted by havocthefirs Uncertainty is excitement. The fear of winning or losing personal property is exciting. If I run into a hundred enemy players and I know without a doubt I will lose nothing, why would I care? As proof of the excitement of winning or losing personal property.
that's your opinion, but tell me your opinion of walking out of a dungeon or something, and bang! getting 1-shoted and all the items you worked for in that dungeon for the last 2 hours were gone... in 1 shot.. gee.. that was terrific! i want more!
Well if you die in one shot than the games already beat with a totally poor fighting system and you wont have to worry, because there will be about six people playing and the odds are you will never see another soul.
Also why not use the entire quote instead of pulling it out of context, afraid your point will be lost? Here I'll do it for you.
Uncertainty is excitement. The fear of winning or losing personal property is exciting. If I run into a hundred enemy players and I know without a doubt I will lose nothing, why would I care? As proof of the excitement of winning or losing personal property. Take two hundred fake dollars and play rullette on your computer where theres nothing to win or lose. Now take two hundred real dollars and go to the casinos and play there. Even if you lose you cant tell me you were'nt thrilled hoping that little marble would drop on your number.
I've played my fair share of MMORPG's with full looting, and I must say it does nothing good imo. Sure it does get exciting when you're in a dangerous zone with gear to lose, but only when you're fighting an opponent your level and with equal equipment. But the idea itself leads to people only taking cheap and useless gear into the pvp areas, and very quickly the whole point of having full looting is gone, and even the people who would otherwise take their best gear to pvp with are using cheap and useless items just because there's no point risking your best items for the chance of getting trash from other players. So in the end pvp becomes a sad rush of guilds of high levels running around in trash gear killing all the lowbies with even worse gear. Not to mention the fact that people are way more likely to use bugs and unfair advantages in order to win a fight if there's items involved.
Whereas in a game without full looting people are more obliged to fight for fun and pleasure rather than just gank for cash. If you can't enjoy pvp without full looting then don't play WAR, simple as that.
Originally posted by havocthefirs Uncertainty is excitement. The fear of winning or losing personal property is exciting. If I run into a hundred enemy players and I know without a doubt I will lose nothing, why would I care? As proof of the excitement of winning or losing personal property.
that's your opinion, but tell me your opinion of walking out of a dungeon or something, and bang! getting 1-shoted and all the items you worked for in that dungeon for the last 2 hours were gone... in 1 shot.. gee.. that was terrific! i want more!
Well if you die in one shot than the games already beat with a totally poor fighting system and you wont have to worry, because there will be about six people playing and the odds are you will never see another soul.
Also why not use the entire quote instead of pulling it out of context, afraid your point will be lost? Here I'll do it for you.
Uncertainty is excitement. The fear of winning or losing personal property is exciting. If I run into a hundred enemy players and I know without a doubt I will lose nothing, why would I care? As proof of the excitement of winning or losing personal property. Take two hundred fake dollars and play rullette on your computer where theres nothing to win or lose. Now take two hundred real dollars and go to the casinos and play there. Even if you lose you cant tell me you were'nt thrilled hoping that little marble would drop on your number.
no game when it first comes out is perfect, even if it is, what if i hit a lag spike on my end? gives the enemy the ability to take 1, and then more shots at me? still the same result. or what if there is no lag, and you just get ganked after fighting a very hard mob? or what if you beat that mob with 100% health, (after lotting a terribly good sword) but it's SUCH A GOOD GAME that hundreds of people are playing, and a massive group of 500 equally geared and level people swoop in on you, and kill you instantly, and take your sword?
i'm not actually afraid of losing my point, but the entire quote is useless to me, and you, and anybody else who reads this thread to re-read paragraphs that are no longer being discussed, or aren't being addressed by rebuttle. in other words, i will not quote your comment on roulette, becuase i do not wish to go ahead with that analegy, because then we'll be arguing over roulette, and not WAR.
the underlined text is useless to my rebuttle now, or to what the conversation has evolved into, namely the unpredictability of lag, and the unanimous decision that being 1-shot is bad >_>
Originally posted by havocthefirs Uncertainty is excitement. The fear of winning or losing personal property is exciting. If I run into a hundred enemy players and I know without a doubt I will lose nothing, why would I care? As proof of the excitement of winning or losing personal property. Take two hundred fake dollars and play rullette on your computer where theres nothing to win or lose. Now take two hundred real dollars and go to the casinos and play there. Even if you lose you cant tell me you were'nt thrilled hoping that little marble would drop on your number.
Yes, the fear of losing personal property is exhilarating. While we're on the subject of RL examples, next time you buy a new stereo system for your car try driving up to The Bronx, hopping out and picking a fight with the first person you see with a nice ride, just for the sheer thrill it. Then, once 3 or 4 of their buddies jump in after beating you senseless and strip your car bare, you can get up, wipe the blood from your face and say "YESSSSS....THIS IS AWESOME!!! I AM A HARD ASS!!!!".
PvP is about testing yourself, striving to be the best and enjoying yourself while doing it. If I wanna gamble with my property I'll go to Vegas. Your ideas are great. Why aren't you in the industry?
Originally posted by havocthefirs Is there a point to pvp without full looting, the simple awnser is no. Theres no excitement without looting, how can there be? Even games like wow in mo the worst of all games, why? Epic gear no looting or housing/ poor crafting. In the end everyone has epic gear and then no gear is epic so why not loot. Without looting crafting becomes irrelevant since I lose nothing I need nothing. If I cant bandage in combat and can only drink 1 pot at most again irrelevant. Can mmorpg's break free from carebearitis, alas only UO in its heyday pre aos managed it.
WAR is a WoW style MMO...it caters to semi-carebears. Hardcore looting PvP MMOs don't do well and they want money.
WAR hasn't copied anyone. WoW copied Warhammer. Think about it. Warhammer has been out for 25 YEARS. world of warcraft has been out for? Yup you guessed it....alot less than 25 years. and yet your right there is a similarity. Since Warhammer is the older of the 2 then i'd suggest that it is WoW that did the copying.
Originally posted by havocthefirs Is there a point to pvp without full looting, the simple awnser is no. Theres no excitement without looting, how can there be? Even games like wow in mo the worst of all games, why? Epic gear no looting or housing/ poor crafting. In the end everyone has epic gear and then no gear is epic so why not loot. Without looting crafting becomes irrelevant since I lose nothing I need nothing. If I cant bandage in combat and can only drink 1 pot at most again irrelevant. Can mmorpg's break free from carebearitis, alas only UO in its heyday pre aos managed it.
WAR is a WoW style MMO...it caters to semi-carebears. Hardcore looting PvP MMOs don't do well and they want money.
If I was a complete dick and Im not...but for the sake of argument, IF I WAS, Id say,
"Your a little 18 yr old shit and you havent played enuogh mmo's to make such an ignorant, broad sweeping generalization of a mmo that has yet to be beta'd."
As for "hardcore looting"...considering that FFA PvP with full looting is an open invitation for griefing I certainly hope mythic doesn't even think about it! I'm sure those that have posted infavor of full looting would never "stoop" to griefing other players . The facts however speak for themselves. given the opportunity there are too many who would grief other players. UO had some nice potential...till you couldn't walk out the gate any more due to "1337 d00dz" with nothing better to do than kill anything that "COULD NOT FIGHT BACK!"
Is it carebear to prevent immature players with their maxed out avatars from camping the noobie starting point?
is it carebear allowing new players to...you know..play the game?
If you can't have fun looting the skulls/beards of your fallen foes, looting and sacking their towns and cities...full PvP with full looting won't make it better for you. might i suggest that if EvE or UO are more to your likeing that you play them. with the other 1337 d00dz.
what a narrow, self serving, IGNORANT view, you, OP, have on mmorpg's. i will make this pithy. the labels in mmorpg's are created by emotionals, not the same fringe sub culture that have no idea which way is up or who they are but the emotionals in mmorpg's that constantly rant about "i dont like this, i dont like that". you OP are an mmorpg EMO.
before you lift a typing finger do some research, never miss that chance to shut your mouth, realize that there are other folks playing the game besides yourself. you are clueless in that YOU feel your view (or any of your fellow emo's) is the only one that should be addressed. if you feel your being stereotyped, you are, you are part of a tiny subculture that believes games should be created and manged for them, exclusively.
this is the skinny, games are created to make money, not cater to you. until bill gates gets into mmorpgs and puts you OP, as head of the dev team, you wont get what you want. games cater to the majority, not carebears, not killers, not malcontents (you) but the majority that will pay a monthly fee because they can progress in a game and enjoy it.
continue to search for that mmorpg that has everything you want, guess what, its not out there and never will be. if for some reason some game maker creates a game where you can kill at will, loot, with no consequences (because consequences as implemented would cramp your style) it would indeed be a true "fringe" game and have a low pop. dont give examples of ANY current game out there now, it doesnt exist.
the recreational killing you seem to want, to satisfy your emotional needs would go something like this: no consequences for killing. no safe areas. unlimited looting, and or theft. kill anytime, any number of times. camp the corpse. freely kill other killers questing. destroy any and all buildings, structures around or in your way. exploit killing as you see fit. kill your friends anytime, your guildmembers, your race.
in retrospect i really hope a game like that does come along, then it can take you "leet, hardcore gamers" as you self promote yourselves and put you into one cesspit.
Adapt or die
can you smell that?!!...............there is nothing quite like it.....................the smell of troll in the morning............i love that smell.
Originally posted by graill what a narrow, self serving, IGNORANT view, you, OP, have on mmorpg's. i will make this pithy. the labels in mmorpg's are created by emotionals, not the same fringe sub culture that have no idea which way is up or who they are but the emotionals in mmorpg's that constantly rant about "i dont like this, i dont like that". you OP are an mmorpg EMO. before you lift a typing finger do some research, never miss that chance to shut your mouth, realize that there are other folks playing the game besides yourself. you are clueless in that YOU feel your view (or any of your fellow emo's) is the only one that should be addressed. if you feel your being stereotyped, you are, you are part of a tiny subculture that believes games should be created and manged for them, exclusively. this is the skinny, games are created to make money, not cater to you. until bill gates gets into mmorpgs and puts you OP, as head of the dev team, you wont get what you want. games cater to the majority, not carebears, not killers, not malcontents (you) but the majority that will pay a monthly fee because they can progress in a game and enjoy it. continue to search for that mmorpg that has everything you want, guess what, its not out there and never will be. if for some reason some game maker creates a game where you can kill at will, loot, with no consequences (because consequences as implemented would cramp your style) it would indeed be a true "fringe" game and have a low pop. dont give examples of ANY current game out there now, it doesnt exist. the recreational killing you seem to want, to satisfy your emotional needs would go something like this: no consequences for killing. no safe areas. unlimited looting, and or theft. kill anytime, any number of times. camp the corpse. freely kill other killers questing. destroy any and all buildings, structures around or in your way. exploit killing as you see fit. kill your friends anytime, your guildmembers, your race. in retrospect i really hope a game like that does come along, then it can take you "leet, hardcore gamers" as you self promote yourselves and put you into one cesspit.
Adapt or die
Holy hell. That was possibly the best post I have ever read. Smart, witty AND full of reason. Not something you see often on these boards. I applaud you.
Originally posted by cheshyrecat might i suggest that if EvE or UO are more to your likeing that you play them. with the other 1337 d00dz.
I take offense at this. to lump EVE players with "1337 d00dz." That's absurd. Most of these "1337 d00dz" don't even make it through the tutorial before they're whining about something. Not to mention these "hardcore" players are usually the ones bitching about their ship getting blown up.
(Don't take any of this as a flame or anything by the way. ) It's just that the PvP in EVE is so well maintained and policed it's damn near perfect.
EDIT: To graill: yes that was one of the best posts I've ever read as well.
--------------------------------------------- I live to fight, and fight to live.
Well one thing that comes to my mind is the way people could get around dropping any loot on death. When I Pked in Asheron's Call, I went around in either my No drop armor and weapons or carried around tons of death items that had more money value than my fighting gear. Just like someone said earlier, in EvE it just comes down to grinding out ISK, or pyreal or what ever the currency, if you have more money to spend on replacing your gear, then "gambling" with your own equipment becomes just as meaningless as looting your downed opponent so in the end why bother looting corpses to begin with?
Full looting only works if the loot is not too valuable. For example, if I was to spend a week getting "THE BEST" possible equipment or near best for my character and then died I would be a little upset but that would be fine because it would only take me a week to get back. In fact if I don't die for 2 whole weeks then I would have a backup set of equipment in case I do die. That is the only way full looting will work is that if the best items possible are easily assessible in a short amount of time. Have possibly one or two trinket items that are rather minor but something that takes a while to get and people will be happy. In my opinion looting is needed in games. Maybe not so much looting but when I kill someone it must hinder their ability to kill me back. On a larger scale when clan wars happen K/D ratios actually matter because a large guild cannot maintain a war for very long if people continue to eat up recourses by repeatedly dying. Eventually a guild must surrender or they risk losing absolutely everything. That is PvP.
The guide to a perfect PvP system, written right now and by me.
1. <b>All items are crafted by players and require resources.</b> These resources are harvested from plants, monsters, whatever. There are many diverse resources that are scattered throughout a large landmass.
2. <b>There must be a centralized market</b> where PvP is possible but in this area it is heavily guarded and starting a fight lowers your standing so that eventually you cannot enter the trade region without guards attacking you on sight. If you do start a fight guards will attack you until you kill them and leave or die yourself.
3. Similar to the centralized market there must also be a <b>centralized region</b>. This centralized region follows the same rules as the centralized market and could house the centralized market. This region has access to most of the reources that the other regions have, missing of course the most rare. Enough resources so that players who don't want to PvP can stay in the region and hope no one attacks them.
4. Towns should be player built and destoyed.
5. When a player dies everything he was carrying and wearing is lootable.
6. Player housing/storage should be made availible in the central region and should be allowed to be built/destroyed in towns/castles outside of the centralized region.
There we now have the premise of a PvP game. I hate watching game after game come out claiming to have PvP when all they have is friendly games of ctf.
I take offense at this. to lump EVE players with "1337 d00dz." That's absurd. Most of these "1337 d00dz" don't even make it through the tutorial before they're whining about something. Not to mention these "hardcore" players are usually the ones bitching about their ship getting blown up.
I apologize if i offended. I'm just annoyed by the silly posts how great 'fulll pvp w/ looting' is.
might i suggest that if EvE or UO are more to your likeing that you play them. with the other 1337 d00dz.
I take offense at this. to lump EVE players with "1337 d00dz." That's absurd. Most of these "1337 d00dz" don't even make it through the tutorial before they're whining about something. Not to mention these "hardcore" players are usually the ones bitching about their ship getting blown up.
(Don't take any of this as a flame or anything by the way. ) It's just that the PvP in EVE is so well maintained and policed it's damn near perfect.
EDIT: To graill: yes that was one of the best posts I've ever read as well.
But it's not really fare to lump in '1337 d00dz' with people who don't make it through EVE's tutorial because 99% of the people who try EVE don't make it through EVE's tutorial. :P
Comments
I dont agree with the 1/3 number at all. If that was the case then why when UO went with the trammel (no looting) patch felucca (full looting area) was a desolate wasteland. Just to get people to go to PVP areas in the game they had to implement item Insurance which basically prevents looting.
I think the question doesnt say the consequence. Making a poll asking if people want looting in PVP, is like asking people if they want more money. Sure they want more loot. The real question is what are they willing to give up to get what they want. Are they willing to have a game that revolves around people ganking everyone 10v1 as they go through portals and gates all day long, and a game where you would permanantly lose your best items if you lag out. That 1/3 number would probably go down to 5%.
A majority of game players do not want open looting. Its a simple fact. Sure, UO had it when the game came out, but they took it away. UO was a modest commercial success, EQ came out and was a rousing one. Sure, there are games with open looting still, Eve comes to mind, but they are not the dominant forces in the market.
I wouldn't care if I lost my gear if it wasn't too hard to replace. But no way do I want to spend 20 hours saving up the cash/mats to get a good weapon only to lose it in a 1 minute pvp fight.
Even Lineage 2 recently decided to do away with the drop system....they finally figured out people just don't want it.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
My thoughts on this thread:
Why are people still arguing over looting other peoples' gear when it's not going to be in this game? Opinions on whether it should or shouldn't be in the game don't matter at this point...because again...it won't be in this game. Let it die.
Proud Member of Mongbat
I dont agree with the 1/3 number at all. If that was the case then why when UO went with the trammel (no looting) patch felucca (full looting area) was a desolate wasteland. Just to get people to go to PVP areas in the game they had to implement item Insurance which basically prevents looting.
I think the question doesnt say the consequence. Making a poll asking if people want looting in PVP, is like asking people if they want more money. Sure they want more loot. The real question is what are they willing to give up to get what they want. Are they willing to have a game that revolves around people ganking everyone 10v1 as they go through portals and gates all day long, and a game where you would permanantly lose your best items if you lag out. That 1/3 number would probably go down to 5%.
There is full looting in trammel the same as fellucca, the reasons for felluccas downfall were, 1) Housing was impossible to come by, an example would be a well placed house outside of a major city sold on ebay for like $500.00. 2) PK's were more rare than a vanq halbert, keep in mind there was a 20% stat loss if a pk was killed which translated into a few months grinding. There were reds of course but you never had to worry they would attack because it took 40 hours to work off a murder, you had more to fear that a blue would open up on you. In trammel blues could'nt attack and reds were'nt allowed. 3) The aos patch was the nail in felluccas coffin, they took away the penalty for murder and it became open season.
As far as consequences, you will probably win as much as you lose. As far as ganking I'll use WOW as an example since most of us have at least tried to play that sad excuse for a mmorpg. Allthough I only played it a few months, it was the most gank-centric game I've ever played, plus the stupidity of having to run to your corpse to be revived, which led to the thrilling corpse-camping, no one ever camped an empty corpse in UO.
I understand that WOW started something like 10 on 10 instances, kinda like roll the dice and see who rolls a six. Besides people were doing that back in UO and it was'nt a so called FEATURE of the game that you needed to have spoon fed to to you.
The 1/3 number is a true number, but if as you say many people would shy away from full looting in consensual pvp and the number would drop to 5% thats still one million customers. At an average of $15.00 a month subscription fee per person thats a tidy 15 million a month. I think warhammer would be more than happy to pull down that kind of cash. Reguardless of wether you pro or con looting, game dynamics will make or break a game. If this game ends up being an eq/wow clone and does'nt institute looting just to do things differently, whos going to bother playing a game thats already out there?
Uncertainty is excitement. The fear of winning or losing personal property is exciting. If I run into a hundred enemy players and I know without a doubt I will lose nothing, why would I care? As proof of the excitement of winning or losing personal property. Take two hundred fake dollars and play rullette on your computer where theres nothing to win or lose. Now take two hundred real dollars and go to the casinos and play there. Even if you lose you cant tell me you were'nt thrilled hoping that little marble would drop on your number.
Gotta go with kord, yea that might seem exciting, but your more likely to get ganked and one shotted.
Well if you die in one shot than the games already beat with a totally poor fighting system and you wont have to worry, because there will be about six people playing and the odds are you will never see another soul.
Also why not use the entire quote instead of pulling it out of context, afraid your point will be lost? Here I'll do it for you.
Uncertainty is excitement. The fear of winning or losing personal property is exciting. If I run into a hundred enemy players and I know without a doubt I will lose nothing, why would I care? As proof of the excitement of winning or losing personal property. Take two hundred fake dollars and play rullette on your computer where theres nothing to win or lose. Now take two hundred real dollars and go to the casinos and play there. Even if you lose you cant tell me you were'nt thrilled hoping that little marble would drop on your number.
Whereas in a game without full looting people are more obliged to fight for fun and pleasure rather than just gank for cash. If you can't enjoy pvp without full looting then don't play WAR, simple as that.
Well if you die in one shot than the games already beat with a totally poor fighting system and you wont have to worry, because there will be about six people playing and the odds are you will never see another soul.
Also why not use the entire quote instead of pulling it out of context, afraid your point will be lost? Here I'll do it for you.
Uncertainty is excitement. The fear of winning or losing personal property is exciting. If I run into a hundred enemy players and I know without a doubt I will lose nothing, why would I care? As proof of the excitement of winning or losing personal property. Take two hundred fake dollars and play rullette on your computer where theres nothing to win or lose. Now take two hundred real dollars and go to the casinos and play there. Even if you lose you cant tell me you were'nt thrilled hoping that little marble would drop on your number.
no game when it first comes out is perfect, even if it is, what if i hit a lag spike on my end? gives the enemy the ability to take 1, and then more shots at me? still the same result. or what if there is no lag, and you just get ganked after fighting a very hard mob? or what if you beat that mob with 100% health, (after lotting a terribly good sword) but it's SUCH A GOOD GAME that hundreds of people are playing, and a massive group of 500 equally geared and level people swoop in on you, and kill you instantly, and take your sword?
i'm not actually afraid of losing my point, but the entire quote is useless to me, and you, and anybody else who reads this thread to re-read paragraphs that are no longer being discussed, or aren't being addressed by rebuttle. in other words, i will not quote your comment on roulette, becuase i do not wish to go ahead with that analegy, because then we'll be arguing over roulette, and not WAR.
the underlined text is useless to my rebuttle now, or to what the conversation has evolved into, namely the unpredictability of lag, and the unanimous decision that being 1-shot is bad >_>
Yes, the fear of losing personal property is exhilarating. While we're on the subject of RL examples, next time you buy a new stereo system for your car try driving up to The Bronx, hopping out and picking a fight with the first person you see with a nice ride, just for the sheer thrill it. Then, once 3 or 4 of their buddies jump in after beating you senseless and strip your car bare, you can get up, wipe the blood from your face and say "YESSSSS....THIS IS AWESOME!!! I AM A HARD ASS!!!!".
PvP is about testing yourself, striving to be the best and enjoying yourself while doing it. If I wanna gamble with my property I'll go to Vegas. Your ideas are great. Why aren't you in the industry?
Proud Member of Mongbat
Actually, if yer gonna put it in a "style" of any other game, it would be DAOC...which is not even remotely similar to WoW.
Proud Member of Mongbat
We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
If I was a complete dick and Im not...but for the sake of argument, IF I WAS, Id say,
"Your a little 18 yr old shit and you havent played enuogh mmo's to make such an ignorant, broad sweeping generalization of a mmo that has yet to be beta'd."
Good thing Im not a complete dick aye
As for "hardcore looting"...considering that FFA PvP with full looting is an open invitation for griefing I certainly hope mythic doesn't even think about it! I'm sure those that have posted infavor of full looting would never "stoop" to griefing other players .
The facts however speak for themselves. given the opportunity there are too many who would grief other players. UO had some nice potential...till you couldn't walk out the gate any more due to "1337 d00dz" with nothing better to do than kill anything that "COULD NOT FIGHT BACK!"
Is it carebear to prevent immature players with their maxed out avatars from camping the noobie starting point?
is it carebear allowing new players to...you know..play the game?
If you can't have fun looting the skulls/beards of your fallen foes, looting and sacking their towns and cities...full PvP with full looting won't make it better for you.
might i suggest that if EvE or UO are more to your likeing that you play them. with the other 1337 d00dz. 
We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
what a narrow, self serving, IGNORANT view, you, OP, have on mmorpg's. i will make this pithy. the labels in mmorpg's are created by emotionals, not the same fringe sub culture that have no idea which way is up or who they are but the emotionals in mmorpg's that constantly rant about "i dont like this, i dont like that". you OP are an mmorpg EMO.
before you lift a typing finger do some research, never miss that chance to shut your mouth, realize that there are other folks playing the game besides yourself. you are clueless in that YOU feel your view (or any of your fellow emo's) is the only one that should be addressed. if you feel your being stereotyped, you are, you are part of a tiny subculture that believes games should be created and manged for them, exclusively.
this is the skinny, games are created to make money, not cater to you. until bill gates gets into mmorpgs and puts you OP, as head of the dev team, you wont get what you want. games cater to the majority, not carebears, not killers, not malcontents (you) but the majority that will pay a monthly fee because they can progress in a game and enjoy it.
continue to search for that mmorpg that has everything you want, guess what, its not out there and never will be. if for some reason some game maker creates a game where you can kill at will, loot, with no consequences (because consequences as implemented would cramp your style) it would indeed be a true "fringe" game and have a low pop. dont give examples of ANY current game out there now, it doesnt exist.
the recreational killing you seem to want, to satisfy your emotional needs would go something like this: no consequences for killing. no safe areas. unlimited looting, and or theft. kill anytime, any number of times. camp the corpse. freely kill other killers questing. destroy any and all buildings, structures around or in your way. exploit killing as you see fit. kill your friends anytime, your guildmembers, your race.
in retrospect i really hope a game like that does come along, then it can take you "leet, hardcore gamers" as you self promote yourselves and put you into one cesspit.
Adapt or die
can you smell that?!!...............there is nothing quite like it.....................the smell of troll in the morning............i love that smell.
Holy hell. That was possibly the best post I have ever read. Smart, witty AND full of reason. Not something you see often on these boards. I applaud you.
Proud Member of Mongbat
(Don't take any of this as a flame or anything by the way.
EDIT: To graill: yes that was one of the best posts I've ever read as well.
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I live to fight, and fight to live.
The guide to a perfect PvP system, written right now and by me.
1. <b>All items are crafted by players and require resources.</b> These resources are harvested from plants, monsters, whatever. There are many diverse resources that are scattered throughout a large landmass.
2. <b>There must be a centralized market</b> where PvP is possible but in this area it is heavily guarded and starting a fight lowers your standing so that eventually you cannot enter the trade region without guards attacking you on sight. If you do start a fight guards will attack you until you kill them and leave or die yourself.
3. Similar to the centralized market there must also be a <b>centralized region</b>. This centralized region follows the same rules as the centralized market and could house the centralized market. This region has access to most of the reources that the other regions have, missing of course the most rare. Enough resources so that players who don't want to PvP can stay in the region and hope no one attacks them.
4. Towns should be player built and destoyed.
5. When a player dies everything he was carrying and wearing is lootable.
6. Player housing/storage should be made availible in the central region and should be allowed to be built/destroyed in towns/castles outside of the centralized region.
There we now have the premise of a PvP game. I hate watching game after game come out claiming to have PvP when all they have is friendly games of ctf.
We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
(Don't take any of this as a flame or anything by the way.
EDIT: To graill: yes that was one of the best posts I've ever read as well.
But it's not really fare to lump in '1337 d00dz' with people who don't make it through EVE's tutorial because 99% of the people who try EVE don't make it through EVE's tutorial. :P