Originally posted by Gameloading Steelarm, seriously, learn the diffrence between a fact and your opinion.
"and PvP without any consequences does get boring. Its a fact."
learn what the word fact actually means before you type a reply.
also, I recommend you re-read the last reply you just wrote, as its simply rediculous, and your making a fool out of yourself.
What he said is just as much of fact as 6millions players make a game good. For most people playing on PvP servers without having some kind of negative effect for PvP does get boring. At first its like "Ahhh crap I died." then it just turns to seeing other players like mobs and just going "Well at least I don't lose durability." Or "oh well. Nothing bad happened." And yes I've had members of my guild say that on a PvP server. A lot of people have become so distraught with PvP that they don't care anymore. They'd rather PvE cause it, to them, offers more of a challenge.
Siehst du mich Erkennst du mich Ganz tief in meinem Herz ist noch ein Platz f?r dich Ich suche dich Ich sehne mich nach dem was ich geliebt hab doch ich find es nicht
Well it sounds like you would may enjoy EVE. EVE is a sci fi based MMO. I personally never played it, but I heard its quite challenging, because it takes a long time before you build up your charcter and wealth. I heard the PvP in EVE is also top notch, its challenging and requires some amount of tactics. Shadowbane is also a free PvP oriented MMO, very fun, but its dated and it doesnt seem all that complete.
Lineage 2 also has an amazingly hard grind and the PvP isnt bad in it. I heard it really isnt a bad game and has awsome graphics.
Other than that, Im afraid your going to have to wait for challenging MMO's to come out. I would say Darkfall is one (even tho its been in development for ages), WAR looks promising, and I heard AoC is gonna be hard. Also been on the lookout for 2moons, that game looks like its going to rock in general.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 Well it sounds like you would may enjoy EVE. EVE is a sci fi based MMO. I personally never played it, but I heard its quite challenging, because it takes a long time before you build up your charcter and wealth. I heard the PvP in EVE is also top notch, its challenging and requires some amount of tactics. Shadowbane is also a free PvP oriented MMO, very fun, but its dated and it doesnt seem all that complete. Lineage 2 also has an amazingly hard grind and the PvP isnt bad in it. I heard it really isnt a bad game and has awsome graphics. Other than that, Im afraid your going to have to wait for challenging MMO's to come out. I would say Darkfall is one (even tho its been in development for ages), WAR looks promising, and I heard AoC is gonna be hard. Also been on the lookout for 2moons, that game looks like its going to rock in general.
EVE's PvP has been in steady decline for the last two-odd years. Its getting slowly carebearized.
The difference between PvP and PvE players is that PvPers just want one game with meaningful, well-done PvP, and a solid market economy and crafting based around that. PvE players demand all games be catered to them.
You have WoW. Its the 'perfect' PvE game. Stop trying to ruin every game which shows even a glimmer of PvP promise.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 My comments in green
When have I been flaming anyone? Look in my past posts, get your facts straight, Chessak. I have been polite and I havent resorted to flaming anyone in my past posts, including you.
Maybe all the "hardcore" PvP players should pitch some money into some dedicated game servers and host a PW for Neverwinter Nights or Minions of Mirth that caters to what you think is "real" PvP.
Then you'll have a place to hang out and can finally STFU!!
Originally posted by Gameloading I really don't understand how those so called "hardcore" pvpers first need all kinds of consequences and item loss before they even consider to start pvp. I completely fail to understand what is so fun about losing your items to a person much higher level/must stronger then myself, because fair fights are rare. very rare. don't get me wrong, I love pvp. and if a game doesn't have pvp, then chances are I won't stick around for long. but for me, its the pvp itself that I enjoy, not the consequences, item loss or even reward.
The problem with hard core pvp'ers is that they want consequences for the VICTIM, but never consequences for the PERPETRAITOR.
Hard core pvp'ers are pansies in their own right.
If you had a game where you could kill anyone, anytime anywhere. But had consequences for unlawful actions such as being marked an outlaw and being unable to enter towns to sell items, and being an outlaw anyone and his mother would be able to murder you without consequence(being marked an outlaw)
Hardcore PVP'ers would call that being carebear, because there is a system in place that evaluates the morals of a character and gives consequences for them. Hardcore PVP'ers should have consequences against them for being unlawful, but they should have the choice to kill someone and accept those consequences.
EVE has an abomination of a consequence system(for moral judgment)... one of the worst features of EVE because security standing means nothing, they could be a pirate hunter and have warning becaue they murdered a pirate in a safe zone.
Originally posted by Kyoruto Originally posted by Gameloading Steelarm, seriously, learn the diffrence between a fact and your opinion.
"and PvP without any consequences does get boring. Its a fact."
learn what the word fact actually means before you type a reply.
also, I recommend you re-read the last reply you just wrote, as its simply rediculous, and your making a fool out of yourself.
What he said is just as much of fact as 6millions players make a game good. For most people playing on PvP servers without having some kind of negative effect for PvP does get boring. At first its like "Ahhh crap I died." then it just turns to seeing other players like mobs and just going "Well at least I don't lose durability." Or "oh well. Nothing bad happened." And yes I've had members of my guild say that on a PvP server. A lot of people have become so distraught with PvP that they don't care anymore. They'd rather PvE cause it, to them, offers more of a challenge.
As long as it can not be backed up, its not a fact. your comment saying "for most people playing on pvp servers without having some kind of negative effect for pvp does get boring" doesn't matter either.. you can't back it up, and you just assume its like that.
Originally posted by trike Originally posted by Steelarm011 My comments in green
When have I been flaming anyone? Look in my past posts, get your facts straight, Chessak. I have been polite and I havent resorted to flaming anyone in my past posts, including you.
Wow. Denial, river, Egypt, etc.
Notice how there are no facts and no other quotes to backup this comment.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by Kyoruto Originally posted by Gameloading Steelarm, seriously, learn the diffrence between a fact and your opinion.
"and PvP without any consequences does get boring. Its a fact."
learn what the word fact actually means before you type a reply.
also, I recommend you re-read the last reply you just wrote, as its simply rediculous, and your making a fool out of yourself.
What he said is just as much of fact as 6millions players make a game good. For most people playing on PvP servers without having some kind of negative effect for PvP does get boring. At first its like "Ahhh crap I died." then it just turns to seeing other players like mobs and just going "Well at least I don't lose durability." Or "oh well. Nothing bad happened." And yes I've had members of my guild say that on a PvP server. A lot of people have become so distraught with PvP that they don't care anymore. They'd rather PvE cause it, to them, offers more of a challenge.
As long as it can not be backed up, its not a fact. your comment saying "for most people playing on pvp servers without having some kind of negative effect for pvp does get boring" doesn't matter either.. you can't back it up, and you just assume its like that.
Since I do play on WoW PvP servers and the people that I know say they'd rather PvE cause that has become more fun. Then to me it is backed up. Just like how you can throw around numbers of players and say because of this then this. (I'm not saying offical numbers that prove that more men play then women. I'm talking about just saying things like saying X game is better then this cause look at all the more people playing it.) I don't assume anything BTW. I wasn't using affiniative words. Such as the phrase "for most people" that indicates that is from the people I talked to and know. And without negative effect is from their reactions to PvP. They actually like it when someone ganks them so they don't suffer durability loss. I obviously can't back it up to you cause you don't know the people I know. But that doesn't matter anyway. I was just stating that is just as factual as what you state.
Siehst du mich Erkennst du mich Ganz tief in meinem Herz ist noch ein Platz f?r dich Ich suche dich Ich sehne mich nach dem was ich geliebt hab doch ich find es nicht
Originally posted by Kyoruto Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by Kyoruto Originally posted by Gameloading Steelarm, seriously, learn the diffrence between a fact and your opinion.
"and PvP without any consequences does get boring. Its a fact."
learn what the word fact actually means before you type a reply.
also, I recommend you re-read the last reply you just wrote, as its simply rediculous, and your making a fool out of yourself.
What he said is just as much of fact as 6millions players make a game good. For most people playing on PvP servers without having some kind of negative effect for PvP does get boring. At first its like "Ahhh crap I died." then it just turns to seeing other players like mobs and just going "Well at least I don't lose durability." Or "oh well. Nothing bad happened." And yes I've had members of my guild say that on a PvP server. A lot of people have become so distraught with PvP that they don't care anymore. They'd rather PvE cause it, to them, offers more of a challenge.
As long as it can not be backed up, its not a fact. your comment saying "for most people playing on pvp servers without having some kind of negative effect for pvp does get boring" doesn't matter either.. you can't back it up, and you just assume its like that.
Since I do play on WoW PvP servers and the people that I know say they'd rather PvE cause that has become more fun. Then to me it is backed up. Just like how you can throw around numbers of players and say because of this then this. I don't assume anything BTW. I wasn't using affiniative words. Such as the phrase "for most people" that indicates that is from the people I talked to and know. And without negative effect is from their reactions to PvP. They actually like it when someone ganks them so they don't suffer durability loss. I obviously can't back it up to you cause you don't know the people I know. But that doesn't matter anyway. I was just stating that is just as factual as what you state.
Actually, you DID assume it was like that. talking to a few people does not back up anything.at all, as you can't judge the entire mmo community on the few people you spoke.
also, what in heavens name does my statement that 6 million people = good game has to do with this thread? please stay on topic.
Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by Kyoruto Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by Kyoruto Originally posted by Gameloading Steelarm, seriously, learn the diffrence between a fact and your opinion.
"and PvP without any consequences does get boring. Its a fact."
learn what the word fact actually means before you type a reply.
also, I recommend you re-read the last reply you just wrote, as its simply rediculous, and your making a fool out of yourself.
What he said is just as much of fact as 6millions players make a game good. For most people playing on PvP servers without having some kind of negative effect for PvP does get boring. At first its like "Ahhh crap I died." then it just turns to seeing other players like mobs and just going "Well at least I don't lose durability." Or "oh well. Nothing bad happened." And yes I've had members of my guild say that on a PvP server. A lot of people have become so distraught with PvP that they don't care anymore. They'd rather PvE cause it, to them, offers more of a challenge.
As long as it can not be backed up, its not a fact. your comment saying "for most people playing on pvp servers without having some kind of negative effect for pvp does get boring" doesn't matter either.. you can't back it up, and you just assume its like that.
Since I do play on WoW PvP servers and the people that I know say they'd rather PvE cause that has become more fun. Then to me it is backed up. Just like how you can throw around numbers of players and say because of this then this. I don't assume anything BTW. I wasn't using affiniative words. Such as the phrase "for most people" that indicates that is from the people I talked to and know. And without negative effect is from their reactions to PvP. They actually like it when someone ganks them so they don't suffer durability loss. I obviously can't back it up to you cause you don't know the people I know. But that doesn't matter anyway. I was just stating that is just as factual as what you state.
Actually, you DID assume it was like that. talking to a few people does not back up anything.at all, as you can't judge the entire mmo community on the few people you spoke.
also, what in heavens name does my statement that 6 million people = good game has to do with this thread? please stay on topic.
I'm not the one assuming anything here. You assumed that I assumed. I'm sorry that most people for you doesn't mean the same as it does for me. Since I know over 200 people on the server that I'm referring too and about 80% of them feel that way. and I wasn't judging an entire mmo community. You are assuming that. Like I said... You are the one assuming and twisting words. If you actually read any of my post you would realize what I've said. But since you don't cause it conflicts to you and you can't handle it. Doesn't make it my problem.
You seem to fallow the creed about a certain god. "You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours." Just replace god with opinions or MMOs. Whichever you prefer. You still fallow that creed and pretend people don't have an opposing view that isn't valid. Just like you are going to do after you read this.
Siehst du mich Erkennst du mich Ganz tief in meinem Herz ist noch ein Platz f?r dich Ich suche dich Ich sehne mich nach dem was ich geliebt hab doch ich find es nicht
Originally posted by Kyoruto Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by Kyoruto Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by Kyoruto Originally posted by Gameloading Steelarm, seriously, learn the diffrence between a fact and your opinion.
"and PvP without any consequences does get boring. Its a fact."
learn what the word fact actually means before you type a reply.
also, I recommend you re-read the last reply you just wrote, as its simply rediculous, and your making a fool out of yourself.
What he said is just as much of fact as 6millions players make a game good. For most people playing on PvP servers without having some kind of negative effect for PvP does get boring. At first its like "Ahhh crap I died." then it just turns to seeing other players like mobs and just going "Well at least I don't lose durability." Or "oh well. Nothing bad happened." And yes I've had members of my guild say that on a PvP server. A lot of people have become so distraught with PvP that they don't care anymore. They'd rather PvE cause it, to them, offers more of a challenge.
As long as it can not be backed up, its not a fact. your comment saying "for most people playing on pvp servers without having some kind of negative effect for pvp does get boring" doesn't matter either.. you can't back it up, and you just assume its like that.
Since I do play on WoW PvP servers and the people that I know say they'd rather PvE cause that has become more fun. Then to me it is backed up. Just like how you can throw around numbers of players and say because of this then this. I don't assume anything BTW. I wasn't using affiniative words. Such as the phrase "for most people" that indicates that is from the people I talked to and know. And without negative effect is from their reactions to PvP. They actually like it when someone ganks them so they don't suffer durability loss. I obviously can't back it up to you cause you don't know the people I know. But that doesn't matter anyway. I was just stating that is just as factual as what you state.
Actually, you DID assume it was like that. talking to a few people does not back up anything.at all, as you can't judge the entire mmo community on the few people you spoke.
also, what in heavens name does my statement that 6 million people = good game has to do with this thread? please stay on topic.
I'm not the one assuming anything here. You assumed that I assumed. I'm sorry that most people for you doesn't mean the same as it does for me. Since I know over 200 people on the server that I'm referring too and about 80% of them feel that way. and I wasn't judging an entire mmo community. You are assuming that. Like I said... You are the one assuming and twisting words. If you actually read any of my post you would realize what I've said. But since you don't cause it conflicts to you and you can't handle it. Doesn't make it my problem.
You seem to fallow the creed about a certain god. "You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours." Just replace god with opinions or MMOs. Whichever you prefer. You still fallow that creed and pretend people don't have an opposing view that isn't valid. Just like you are going to do after you read this.
You simply should add keywords like "Imo" or in my opinion, because you act like its a fact. the only fact around here is that what you say is not backed up. you THINK the majority of the mmorpg players find pvp without negative effects borings.
Originally posted by fisherc Originally posted by Gameloading I really don't understand how those so called "hardcore" pvpers first need all kinds of consequences and item loss before they even consider to start pvp. I completely fail to understand what is so fun about losing your items to a person much higher level/must stronger then myself, because fair fights are rare. very rare. don't get me wrong, I love pvp. and if a game doesn't have pvp, then chances are I won't stick around for long. but for me, its the pvp itself that I enjoy, not the consequences, item loss or even reward.
The problem with hard core pvp'ers is that they want consequences for the VICTIM, but never consequences for the PERPETRAITOR.
Hard core pvp'ers are pansies in their own right.
If you had a game where you could kill anyone, anytime anywhere. But had consequences for unlawful actions such as being marked an outlaw and being unable to enter towns to sell items, and being an outlaw anyone and his mother would be able to murder you without consequence(being marked an outlaw)
Hardcore PVP'ers would call that being carebear, because there is a system in place that evaluates the morals of a character and gives consequences for them. Hardcore PVP'ers should have consequences against them for being unlawful, but they should have the choice to kill someone and accept those consequences.
EVE has an abomination of a consequence system(for moral judgment)... one of the worst features of EVE because security standing means nothing, they could be a pirate hunter and have warning becaue they murdered a pirate in a safe zone.
security standing means a lot on EVE. first consecuence of a low security is that you appear on other player's overviews on a different color, meaning you are not a very nice person usually. second consecuence is that many corps will not accept low security pilots since they are suspect of being pirates, third consecuence is that if your security standing goes below -5, you'll be shot by npc's at the moment you enter a high security system meaning that you are most likely unable to go to the most important trade hubs of the universe.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 Originally posted by trike Originally posted by Steelarm011 My comments in green
When have I been flaming anyone? Look in my past posts, get your facts straight, Chessak. I have been polite and I havent resorted to flaming anyone in my past posts, including you.
Wow. Denial, river, Egypt, etc.
Notice how there are no facts and no other quotes to backup this comment.
Uh-huh. And it has nothing to do with the fact that you're clueless as to what constitutes a "flame," I'll bet.
Let me explain it to you using small words: you're flaming people.
Deny it all you want, that won't change the fact that you're doing it.
Originally posted by trike Originally posted by Steelarm011 Originally posted by trike Originally posted by Steelarm011 My comments in green
When have I been flaming anyone? Look in my past posts, get your facts straight, Chessak. I have been polite and I havent resorted to flaming anyone in my past posts, including you.
Wow. Denial, river, Egypt, etc.
Notice how there are no facts and no other quotes to backup this comment.
Uh-huh. And it has nothing to do with the fact that you're clueless as to what constitutes a "flame," I'll bet.
Let me explain it to you using small words: you're flaming people.
Deny it all you want, that won't change the fact that you're doing it.
May I say it again? Notice how this post doesnt have any facts to back it up.
Let me put this in small words: Your post means nothing. How about contributing something positive to the thread instead of flaming me?
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Eve does have morality, its just player created morality.
Thats what gives it a rich set of player-created FACTIONS to fight for.
One side support piracy, the other side hates them, so like-minded people join up on either side.
Its like the pro/anti slavery battle. The game doesn't ban slavery, you can participate in it.
But theres factions behind it, theres pro-slavery factions and anti-slavery factions.
The PLAYERS develop that story, the PLAYERS develop the factions, the PLAYERS decide if slavery is evil or not, the PLAYERS decide if piracy is evil or not.
We have a faction for EVERYTHING.
The only constant is PVP. Eve is a PVP game. If you look at the details, the mechanics are actually very gentle and forgiving. It is made to FEEL brutal but in reality you can't get someone to fight who doesn't want to fight. So its basically consentual pvp.
Most of the time I find myself in a cruiser, with insurance I lose like 2 mil. Thats less than 1 hours ratting.
Thats a wimpier death penalty than Everquest. Depending on how good you are at making money, some ppl have billions of isk, so to lose 2 mil in PVP is nothing.
Me personally I dont understand why ppl lose so many ship.
A cruiser usually last me more than a week. So every week I lose like 2 mil isk. 2 mil isk is nothing, I can make that in 20 minutes running trade route into lowsec.
Then people say "omg I got ganked"
In 1.5 years I never got ganked by pirates. I run cargo into lowsec, I see them all the time, but they never got me. Maybe someday they will, and if they do I will learn from that, and say "good work."
PVE is a totally pointless experience. Its like fighting someone who doesn't fight back. I know that if I develop the right tactics, I will always win, and the PVE monster become a cow you milk for resources.
Also the quality of the playerbase in PVE game is usually much lower. They have no soul. They care more about "lewt" than friendship.
Basically PVE = Lewt PVP = Friendship
You develop friendship and love for each other in PVP, because you NEED each other to survive, its like soldiers in the field develop tight friendship, because they save each others life.
In PVE I dont need you, and you dont need me, except to farm for loot.
Then the loot drops and they argue. Waaah I want the flaming sword.
So the whole relationship is about phat lewt, like in WoW, ppl go on 40 person raids, then bargain with their DKP and argue about loot. So you attend the raid not because your friends, but because you need the DKP.
Its a selfish form of gameplay that brings out the WORST in human beings.
Killing each other is not the worst behavior.
The worst behavior is saying, "I need you only for getting loot."
At least in PVP you honor your enemy as a human being.
PVP bother some people and I dont know what to say except "I am sorry."
I am sorry that you will never understand and experience the joys of PVP.
Originally posted by Gameloading You simply should add keywords like "Imo" or in my opinion, because you act like its a fact. the only fact around here is that what you say is not backed up. you THINK the majority of the mmorpg players find pvp without negative effects borings.
Wow, Assume more there GL. I didn't act like it was fact at all. You really need to stop twisting other peoples words. Its very discouraging to your own character. I don't think anything that you said about me. So are you the one assuming or am I? I didn't say a damn thing about it being backed up? No cause you keep saying and making up an argument. I never stated it as a truth that you can adhere to. Hell I didn't even say it was truth at all. You keep making it seem like that. You really do keep to the creed though. I'm impressed. YOU THINK that I'm assuming anything and not just stating an opinion. So no.. The only fact around here is that YOU are insane and keep trying to pin me as something I am not. So live out you fantasy with someone else cause this is starting to get creepy. So don't tell me what I THINK cause I know as sure as HELL know what I THINK not YOU.
Siehst du mich Erkennst du mich Ganz tief in meinem Herz ist noch ein Platz f?r dich Ich suche dich Ich sehne mich nach dem was ich geliebt hab doch ich find es nicht
Sadly, I have to side with the carebears on this issue. Griefers/Gankers and Exploiters killed it for for those that wants PvP in MMORPG. There are still alot of old MMO PvP games and alot of FPS's out there for PvP-ers (Planetside comes to mind). But if your skill is to grief and gank you get raped pretty fast in those games because only the strong are left. That is why alot of griefers/gankers end up on forums whining about new MMORPGss don't give them easy kills anymore. Casual gamers voted with their wallets and left griefing/ganking in favor of games like WoW. Griefers where left holding their d**ks.
I think one of the reasons it got this way is that traditional RPG is PVE. People banding together to fight the dungeon master. MMORPG attracted not only this crowd but also my crowd coming from an FPS-background. And the clash of the two wasn't pretty to watch. True RPG:ers got their Role-playing experience messed up. And true combat-focused players like myself got to watch sociopaths preying on the weak for a cheap thrill and they basically sullied everything that was good about small group combat learned in FPSs.
The only game I know of that has worked for both sides is EVE. It has worked so good that most PVP:ers like myself have been forced to create alts/second accounts for manufacturing and other "carebear" activities. Likewise "carebear" corps have proven themselves quite a match in PvP (just look at POS in the last tourney). Griefers/gankers exists but thier impact on newbs is limited due to securitylevels. Pirate/Antipirate corps seems to balance themselves out and if a griefer/gankers starts to mess with alliance-politics they get squashed rather ruthlessly. That is why you find most pirates in 0,4-0,1 space because they can't survive in 0,0. The drawback of EVE is that there is very little RP in-game. Most of the RP is done on the Forums and for people like myself who are new to RP it can be a bit daunting to step in there because you get ridiculed if you don't know how to act properly. You can see alot of successful PvP:ers putting their foot in their mouths and looking like idiots in the RP-section of the forum when they try to add more meaning to their PVP experience.
My suggestion to devs wanting to make a PvP-style MMO is to skip levels. FPS-style PvP only, no magical "I win"-items/pwnmobiles. In-game voice is a must. The server must not lag in large-scale battles i.e must be able to handle 4-500 players battling at the same time. Battles have to have a world-changing effect. A rich back-story doesn't hurt either but is not essential.
Well that's my 2 cents I'm off to play EVE. Patch-day seems to be over finally
6 pages of crap and it was all summed up in the the first response.
The "hardcore PvPers" that want "player skill" based MMOs need to just stop their constant whining and play a FPS like the kill-oholics they are.
What makes them all so pathetic(most especially steelarm) is that they really do believe they are 100% right and it's everyone else that's wrong. Get over yourselves already.
Originally posted by Kyoruto Originally posted by Gameloading You simply should add keywords like "Imo" or in my opinion, because you act like its a fact. the only fact around here is that what you say is not backed up. you THINK the majority of the mmorpg players find pvp without negative effects borings.
Wow, Assume more there GL. I didn't act like it was fact at all. You really need to stop twisting other peoples words. Its very discouraging to your own character. I don't think anything that you said about me. So are you the one assuming or am I? I didn't say a damn thing about it being backed up? No cause you keep saying and making up an argument. I never stated it as a truth that you can adhere to. Hell I didn't even say it was truth at all. You keep making it seem like that. You really do keep to the creed though. I'm impressed. YOU THINK that I'm assuming anything and not just stating an opinion. So no.. The only fact around here is that YOU are insane and keep trying to pin me as something I am not. So live out you fantasy with someone else cause this is starting to get creepy. So don't tell me what I THINK cause I know as sure as HELL know what I THINK not YOU. How long are you going to keep this up? You made a statement you can't back up, so you assume it was right. period, done, end of discussion. move along.
My PVP experience is based on COH/COV, AA, GW, and EVE.
EVE is the only game I still play. I feel that it is a very balanced system, allowing for successful PVP and PVE games (thought the PVE could use some fattening).
Fizzle has brought up many valid points why fairly open ended and balanced PVP is a good thing (I myself am very attached to my alliance mates, many of which I fought with for our land and rights to live since FIX's beginning.)
But the point I would like to bring up is the debt PVE owes to PVP, if they are both balanced.
It's player death and looting that drives the crafting/loot market. People lose their ships (and their IG lives) all the time in EVE. That in itself creates a demand for a crafters/mission runners's products and loot.
Need I say more.
Quite frankly, I would like to see more PVE/PVP balanced games like EVE.
Originally posted by Steelarm011It seems like the current trend is that to be cool you have to hate PvP and playerlooting. I see it all the time on these forums.
As you said, "Waah waah waahh...stop whining." Do you need a towel to dry your tears over the fact that the entire world doesn't agree with you? "Waah waah. Get a bottle." And maybe grow an actual spine to, not just a 'I can fight people in a computer game' spine. Once you have some actual backbone, you'll be able to argue without sobbing over the fact that people don't agree with you.
Also, can you provide an example of threads that demonstrate your assertion above, or is it just a 'fact' that you made up? I haven't seen any threads where people other than 'hardcore' PVPers even talked about coolness, or said that you're only cool if you don't like PVP, or anything like that. I do see plenty of threads like this one where 'hardcore' PVPers get a bad response because they insult everyone who doesn't like their style of play, saying that others don't have backbones, are wimps, and the like, but that's not the same thing. The whole 'coolness' thing seems to be primarly a concern of the 'hardcore'.
I never said it WAS cool to be tough to beat up people and gank them. Read my wording again before you give me another lame response like the rest this thread has seen.
So do you think that games which are about beating people up and taking their stuff are cool, or that it's cool to like and play such games?
This is the same type of response that we all get "You think youre cool and tough cause you like to kill other players and be mean and be a bully!" give me a break, it doesnt work like that. Not all players want to be mean and bully others.
You said that people who don't like your style of video game are not tough, and sarcastically asked if their lack of toughness makes them cool. While I'm not interested enough to dig through your other posts, saying that people who don't like games that are about beating up other people and taking their stuff are neither cool nor tough is close enough for me.
ALot of us want to have fun and have freedom and not have the restrictions that developers put on the games.
The problem is that you want to have fun at the expense of other people, and the other people aren't interested in it. That's why you guys hate Trammel in UO so much; your victims left, leaving you with only people who didn't want the restrictions.
[quote]I see so many people posting on these forums complaining how boring it is....and PvP without any consequences does get boring. Its a fact.[/.quote]
It's not a fact, unless you can explain the popularity of PVP in FPSs, RTSs, and TBSs, none of which have an equivalent to 'consequences in an MMO'
When did the OP say that? This thread is about hardcore PvP vs Modern lame PvP involving deaths that turn you into ghosts without any consequences. Whoever said that you'll be losing all your gear at once?
The OP specifically talked about UO, which is a full-loot game, and Darkfall, which will be a full-loot game according to the developers and Shadowbane, which I'm not sure about. At least 2 of the 3 games he listed are full-loot games, therefore it's a safe bet that by 'hardcore PVP' he means a full-loot game.
It can take you almost instantanously to 2 or 3 minutes. How long does it take you in MMO's to ressurect? Umm....a minute maybe? Maybe even less.
Umm... isn't the fact that it takes a minute or less to recover from a death exactly what you're complaining about? If it's not, then what exactly are the 'consequences' that you want to have in game?
Your response has more words in it trying to flame me than getting to tell any facts.
Why did you underline the word "has"? I just can't think of a sensible reason to do it there.
Your spirit is more busy not playing games but WHINING ABOUT IT and flaming people like me on these forums who are trying to get you to see it a different way, but apparently your too thickheaded to realize that.
Actually, you're the one who's been whining; that's a fact. I've made comments about what I don't like in a game and why, you've whined about other people not liking your kind of game, people not thinking it's 'cool' to like your kind of game, and other stuff. It's also a fact that you've been flaming like crazy, accusing people of being weak and spineless for not liking your type of video game.
It's also not very clear to me why you think that I spent more time responding to you than playing games; I spent maybe 15 minutes on that post, while I spent hours playing games. That's a FACT!
Get your facts straight before you try to counter my argument again.
I wasn't aware that there was really an argument to counter, could you lay out exactly what your argument is? "You're a wimp if you don't like my type of video game" doens't qualify as an argument to me, FYI.
This response has been a waste of my time.
My response hasn't been a waste of mine, I enjoyed writing it. Maybe you should reconsider posting here if you don't actually enjoy it.
Carebears= mainstream, maintream=money, Games need to make money . That's why UO had to go Trammel, cause if it didn't it would have been long dead . that's realities of the gaming world, especially mmorpgs, thank you.
It's better be hated for who you are, than loved for who you aren't.
Originally posted by Gorukha Carebears= mainstream, maintream=money, Games need to make money . That's why UO had to go Trammel, cause if it didn't it would have been long dead . that's realities of the gaming world, especially mmorpgs, thank you.
First of all you should stop calling them "carebears". I accepted a long time ago that, not all people like PvP in their MMO's. Even less like FFA PvP, and even less like FFA PvP with Looting. That's their preference though, i'm not going to call them a name. Just because their taste differ from my own.
You think it's the Non-PvPers that have ruined future chances of PvP games? Wake up and realize it's fellow PvPers that did that. PvP games tend to be the most hacked and exploited games out there. Just look at DAOC and Shadowbane. Buffsbots, 3rd party player map exploits, macro programs, dual boxing. Non-PvPers didn't do that, it was the so called "hardcore players".
Not to mention community. (Not going to say their name) Exactly who wants to play a game with a guild that likes to takes pictures, of them ganking you saying words like "Circle Jerk". That create whole dummie guilds with PornStar names. That spend 90% of their game time looking for terrain/wall exploits.
You want to know who really ruined PvP Games? Need to look no further then the people that enjoy PvP games.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
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ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
Ich suche dich
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Well it sounds like you would may enjoy EVE. EVE is a sci fi based MMO. I personally never played it, but I heard its quite challenging, because it takes a long time before you build up your charcter and wealth. I heard the PvP in EVE is also top notch, its challenging and requires some amount of tactics. Shadowbane is also a free PvP oriented MMO, very fun, but its dated and it doesnt seem all that complete.
Lineage 2 also has an amazingly hard grind and the PvP isnt bad in it. I heard it really isnt a bad game and has awsome graphics.
Other than that, Im afraid your going to have to wait for challenging MMO's to come out. I would say Darkfall is one (even tho its been in development for ages), WAR looks promising, and I heard AoC is gonna be hard. Also been on the lookout for 2moons, that game looks like its going to rock in general.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
The difference between PvP and PvE players is that PvPers just want one game with meaningful, well-done PvP, and a solid market economy and crafting based around that. PvE players demand all games be catered to them.
You have WoW. Its the 'perfect' PvE game. Stop trying to ruin every game which shows even a glimmer of PvP promise.
Wow. Denial, river, Egypt, etc.
Maybe all the "hardcore" PvP players should pitch some money into some dedicated game servers and host a PW for Neverwinter Nights or Minions of Mirth that caters to what you think is "real" PvP.
Then you'll have a place to hang out and can finally STFU!!
The problem with hard core pvp'ers is that they want consequences for the VICTIM, but never consequences for the PERPETRAITOR.
Hard core pvp'ers are pansies in their own right.
If you had a game where you could kill anyone, anytime anywhere. But had consequences for unlawful actions such as being marked an outlaw and being unable to enter towns to sell items, and being an outlaw anyone and his mother would be able to murder you without consequence(being marked an outlaw)
Hardcore PVP'ers would call that being carebear, because there is a system in place that evaluates the morals of a character and gives consequences for them. Hardcore PVP'ers should have consequences against them for being unlawful, but they should have the choice to kill someone and accept those consequences.
EVE has an abomination of a consequence system(for moral judgment)... one of the worst features of EVE because security standing means nothing, they could be a pirate hunter and have warning becaue they murdered a pirate in a safe zone.
As long as it can not be backed up, its not a fact. your comment saying "for most people playing on pvp servers without having some kind of negative effect for pvp does get boring" doesn't matter either.. you can't back it up, and you just assume its like that.
Wow. Denial, river, Egypt, etc.
Notice how there are no facts and no other quotes to backup this comment.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
As long as it can not be backed up, its not a fact. your comment saying "for most people playing on pvp servers without having some kind of negative effect for pvp does get boring" doesn't matter either.. you can't back it up, and you just assume its like that.
Since I do play on WoW PvP servers and the people that I know say they'd rather PvE cause that has become more fun. Then to me it is backed up. Just like how you can throw around numbers of players and say because of this then this. (I'm not saying offical numbers that prove that more men play then women. I'm talking about just saying things like saying X game is better then this cause look at all the more people playing it.) I don't assume anything BTW. I wasn't using affiniative words. Such as the phrase "for most people" that indicates that is from the people I talked to and know. And without negative effect is from their reactions to PvP. They actually like it when someone ganks them so they don't suffer durability loss. I obviously can't back it up to you cause you don't know the people I know. But that doesn't matter anyway. I was just stating that is just as factual as what you state.
Siehst du mich
Erkennst du mich
Ganz tief in meinem Herz
ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
Ich suche dich
Ich sehne mich
nach dem was ich geliebt hab
doch ich find es nicht
As long as it can not be backed up, its not a fact. your comment saying "for most people playing on pvp servers without having some kind of negative effect for pvp does get boring" doesn't matter either.. you can't back it up, and you just assume its like that.
Since I do play on WoW PvP servers and the people that I know say they'd rather PvE cause that has become more fun. Then to me it is backed up. Just like how you can throw around numbers of players and say because of this then this. I don't assume anything BTW. I wasn't using affiniative words. Such as the phrase "for most people" that indicates that is from the people I talked to and know. And without negative effect is from their reactions to PvP. They actually like it when someone ganks them so they don't suffer durability loss. I obviously can't back it up to you cause you don't know the people I know. But that doesn't matter anyway. I was just stating that is just as factual as what you state.
Actually, you DID assume it was like that. talking to a few people does not back up anything.at all, as you can't judge the entire mmo community on the few people you spoke.
also, what in heavens name does my statement that 6 million people = good game has to do with this thread? please stay on topic.
As long as it can not be backed up, its not a fact. your comment saying "for most people playing on pvp servers without having some kind of negative effect for pvp does get boring" doesn't matter either.. you can't back it up, and you just assume its like that.
Since I do play on WoW PvP servers and the people that I know say they'd rather PvE cause that has become more fun. Then to me it is backed up. Just like how you can throw around numbers of players and say because of this then this. I don't assume anything BTW. I wasn't using affiniative words. Such as the phrase "for most people" that indicates that is from the people I talked to and know. And without negative effect is from their reactions to PvP. They actually like it when someone ganks them so they don't suffer durability loss. I obviously can't back it up to you cause you don't know the people I know. But that doesn't matter anyway. I was just stating that is just as factual as what you state.
Actually, you DID assume it was like that. talking to a few people does not back up anything.at all, as you can't judge the entire mmo community on the few people you spoke.
also, what in heavens name does my statement that 6 million people = good game has to do with this thread? please stay on topic.
I'm not the one assuming anything here. You assumed that I assumed. I'm sorry that most people for you doesn't mean the same as it does for me. Since I know over 200 people on the server that I'm referring too and about 80% of them feel that way. and I wasn't judging an entire mmo community. You are assuming that. Like I said... You are the one assuming and twisting words. If you actually read any of my post you would realize what I've said. But since you don't cause it conflicts to you and you can't handle it. Doesn't make it my problem.
You seem to fallow the creed about a certain god. "You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other
religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours." Just replace god with opinions or MMOs. Whichever you prefer. You still fallow that creed and pretend people don't have an opposing view that isn't valid. Just like you are going to do after you read this.
Siehst du mich
Erkennst du mich
Ganz tief in meinem Herz
ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
Ich suche dich
Ich sehne mich
nach dem was ich geliebt hab
doch ich find es nicht
As long as it can not be backed up, its not a fact. your comment saying "for most people playing on pvp servers without having some kind of negative effect for pvp does get boring" doesn't matter either.. you can't back it up, and you just assume its like that.
Since I do play on WoW PvP servers and the people that I know say they'd rather PvE cause that has become more fun. Then to me it is backed up. Just like how you can throw around numbers of players and say because of this then this. I don't assume anything BTW. I wasn't using affiniative words. Such as the phrase "for most people" that indicates that is from the people I talked to and know. And without negative effect is from their reactions to PvP. They actually like it when someone ganks them so they don't suffer durability loss. I obviously can't back it up to you cause you don't know the people I know. But that doesn't matter anyway. I was just stating that is just as factual as what you state.
Actually, you DID assume it was like that. talking to a few people does not back up anything.at all, as you can't judge the entire mmo community on the few people you spoke.
also, what in heavens name does my statement that 6 million people = good game has to do with this thread? please stay on topic.
I'm not the one assuming anything here. You assumed that I assumed. I'm sorry that most people for you doesn't mean the same as it does for me. Since I know over 200 people on the server that I'm referring too and about 80% of them feel that way. and I wasn't judging an entire mmo community. You are assuming that. Like I said... You are the one assuming and twisting words. If you actually read any of my post you would realize what I've said. But since you don't cause it conflicts to you and you can't handle it. Doesn't make it my problem.
You seem to fallow the creed about a certain god. "You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other
religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours." Just replace god with opinions or MMOs. Whichever you prefer. You still fallow that creed and pretend people don't have an opposing view that isn't valid. Just like you are going to do after you read this.
You simply should add keywords like "Imo" or in my opinion, because you act like its a fact. the only fact around here is that what you say is not backed up. you THINK the majority of the mmorpg players find pvp without negative effects borings.
The problem with hard core pvp'ers is that they want consequences for the VICTIM, but never consequences for the PERPETRAITOR.
Hard core pvp'ers are pansies in their own right.
If you had a game where you could kill anyone, anytime anywhere. But had consequences for unlawful actions such as being marked an outlaw and being unable to enter towns to sell items, and being an outlaw anyone and his mother would be able to murder you without consequence(being marked an outlaw)
Hardcore PVP'ers would call that being carebear, because there is a system in place that evaluates the morals of a character and gives consequences for them. Hardcore PVP'ers should have consequences against them for being unlawful, but they should have the choice to kill someone and accept those consequences.
EVE has an abomination of a consequence system(for moral judgment)... one of the worst features of EVE because security standing means nothing, they could be a pirate hunter and have warning becaue they murdered a pirate in a safe zone.
security standing means a lot on EVE. first consecuence of a low security is that you appear on other player's overviews on a different color, meaning you are not a very nice person usually. second consecuence is that many corps will not accept low security pilots since they are suspect of being pirates, third consecuence is that if your security standing goes below -5, you'll be shot by npc's at the moment you enter a high security system meaning that you are most likely unable to go to the most important trade hubs of the universe.
Wow. Denial, river, Egypt, etc.
Notice how there are no facts and no other quotes to backup this comment.
Uh-huh. And it has nothing to do with the fact that you're clueless as to what constitutes a "flame," I'll bet.
Let me explain it to you using small words: you're flaming people.
Deny it all you want, that won't change the fact that you're doing it.
Wow. Denial, river, Egypt, etc.
Notice how there are no facts and no other quotes to backup this comment.
Uh-huh. And it has nothing to do with the fact that you're clueless as to what constitutes a "flame," I'll bet.
Let me explain it to you using small words: you're flaming people.
Deny it all you want, that won't change the fact that you're doing it.
May I say it again? Notice how this post doesnt have any facts to back it up.
Let me put this in small words: Your post means nothing. How about contributing something positive to the thread instead of flaming me?
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Eve does have morality, its just player created morality.
Thats what gives it a rich set of player-created FACTIONS to fight for.
One side support piracy, the other side hates them, so like-minded people join up on either side.
Its like the pro/anti slavery battle. The game doesn't ban slavery, you can participate in it.
But theres factions behind it, theres pro-slavery factions and anti-slavery factions.
The PLAYERS develop that story, the PLAYERS develop the factions, the PLAYERS decide if slavery is evil or not, the PLAYERS decide if piracy is evil or not.
We have a faction for EVERYTHING.
The only constant is PVP. Eve is a PVP game. If you look at the details, the mechanics are actually very gentle and forgiving. It is made to FEEL brutal but in reality you can't get someone to fight who doesn't want to fight. So its basically consentual pvp.
Most of the time I find myself in a cruiser, with insurance I lose like 2 mil. Thats less than 1 hours ratting.
Thats a wimpier death penalty than Everquest. Depending on how good you are at making money, some ppl have billions of isk, so to lose 2 mil in PVP is nothing.
Me personally I dont understand why ppl lose so many ship.
A cruiser usually last me more than a week. So every week I lose like 2 mil isk. 2 mil isk is nothing, I can make that in 20 minutes running trade route into lowsec.
Then people say "omg I got ganked"
In 1.5 years I never got ganked by pirates. I run cargo into lowsec, I see them all the time, but they never got me. Maybe someday they will, and if they do I will learn from that, and say "good work."
PVE is a totally pointless experience. Its like fighting someone who doesn't fight back. I know that if I develop the right tactics, I will always win, and the PVE monster become a cow you milk for resources.
Also the quality of the playerbase in PVE game is usually much lower. They have no soul. They care more about "lewt" than friendship.
Basically PVE = Lewt
PVP = Friendship
You develop friendship and love for each other in PVP, because you NEED each other to survive, its like soldiers in the field develop tight friendship, because they save each others life.
In PVE I dont need you, and you dont need me, except to farm for loot.
Then the loot drops and they argue. Waaah I want the flaming sword.
So the whole relationship is about phat lewt, like in WoW, ppl go on 40 person raids, then bargain with their DKP and argue about loot. So you attend the raid not because your friends, but because you need the DKP.
Its a selfish form of gameplay that brings out the WORST in human beings.
Killing each other is not the worst behavior.
The worst behavior is saying, "I need you only for getting loot."
At least in PVP you honor your enemy as a human being.
PVP bother some people and I dont know what to say except "I am sorry."
I am sorry that you will never understand and experience the joys of PVP.
Siehst du mich
Erkennst du mich
Ganz tief in meinem Herz
ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
Ich suche dich
Ich sehne mich
nach dem was ich geliebt hab
doch ich find es nicht
Sadly, I have to side with the carebears on this issue. Griefers/Gankers and Exploiters killed it for for those that wants PvP in MMORPG. There are still alot of old MMO PvP games and alot of FPS's out there for PvP-ers (Planetside comes to mind). But if your skill is to grief and gank you get raped pretty fast in those games because only the strong are left. That is why alot of griefers/gankers end up on forums whining about new MMORPGss don't give them easy kills anymore. Casual gamers voted with their wallets and left griefing/ganking in favor of games like WoW. Griefers where left holding their d**ks.
I think one of the reasons it got this way is that traditional RPG is PVE. People banding together to fight the dungeon master. MMORPG attracted not only this crowd but also my crowd coming from an FPS-background. And the clash of the two wasn't pretty to watch. True RPG:ers got their Role-playing experience messed up. And true combat-focused players like myself got to watch sociopaths preying on the weak for a cheap thrill and they basically sullied everything that was good about small group combat learned in FPSs.
The only game I know of that has worked for both sides is EVE. It has worked so good that most PVP:ers like myself have been forced to create alts/second accounts for manufacturing and other "carebear" activities. Likewise "carebear" corps have proven themselves quite a match in PvP (just look at POS in the last tourney). Griefers/gankers exists but thier impact on newbs is limited due to securitylevels. Pirate/Antipirate corps seems to balance themselves out and if a griefer/gankers starts to mess with alliance-politics they get squashed rather ruthlessly. That is why you find most pirates in 0,4-0,1 space because they can't survive in 0,0. The drawback of EVE is that there is very little RP in-game. Most of the RP is done on the Forums and for people like myself who are new to RP it can be a bit daunting to step in there because you get ridiculed if you don't know how to act properly. You can see alot of successful PvP:ers putting their foot in their mouths and looking like idiots in the RP-section of the forum when they try to add more meaning to their PVP experience.
My suggestion to devs wanting to make a PvP-style MMO is to skip levels. FPS-style PvP only, no magical "I win"-items/pwnmobiles. In-game voice is a must. The server must not lag in large-scale battles i.e must be able to handle 4-500 players battling at the same time. Battles have to have a world-changing effect. A rich back-story doesn't hurt either but is not essential.
Well that's my 2 cents I'm off to play EVE. Patch-day seems to be over finally
6 pages of crap and it was all summed up in the the first response.
The "hardcore PvPers" that want "player skill" based MMOs need to just stop their constant whining and play a FPS like the kill-oholics they are.
What makes them all so pathetic(most especially steelarm) is that they really do believe they are 100% right and it's everyone else that's wrong. Get over yourselves already.
How long are you going to keep this up? You made a statement you can't back up, so you assume it was right. period, done, end of discussion. move along.
My PVP experience is based on COH/COV, AA, GW, and EVE.
EVE is the only game I still play. I feel that it is a very balanced system, allowing for successful PVP and PVE games (thought the PVE could use some fattening).
Fizzle has brought up many valid points why fairly open ended and balanced PVP is a good thing (I myself am very attached to my alliance mates, many of which I fought with for our land and rights to live since FIX's beginning.)
But the point I would like to bring up is the debt PVE owes to PVP, if they are both balanced.
It's player death and looting that drives the crafting/loot market. People lose their ships (and their IG lives) all the time in EVE. That in itself creates a demand for a crafters/mission runners's products and loot.
Need I say more.
Quite frankly, I would like to see more PVE/PVP balanced games like EVE.
my 2 cents
As you said, "Waah waah waahh...stop whining." Do you need a towel to dry your tears over the fact that the entire world doesn't agree with you? "Waah waah. Get a bottle." And maybe grow an actual spine to, not just a 'I can fight people in a computer game' spine. Once you have some actual backbone, you'll be able to argue without sobbing over the fact that people don't agree with you.
Also, can you provide an example of threads that demonstrate your assertion above, or is it just a 'fact' that you made up? I haven't seen any threads where people other than 'hardcore' PVPers even talked about coolness, or said that you're only cool if you don't like PVP, or anything like that. I do see plenty of threads like this one where 'hardcore' PVPers get a bad response because they insult everyone who doesn't like their style of play, saying that others don't have backbones, are wimps, and the like, but that's not the same thing. The whole 'coolness' thing seems to be primarly a concern of the 'hardcore'.
So do you think that games which are about beating people up and taking their stuff are cool, or that it's cool to like and play such games?
You said that people who don't like your style of video game are not tough, and sarcastically asked if their lack of toughness makes them cool. While I'm not interested enough to dig through your other posts, saying that people who don't like games that are about beating up other people and taking their stuff are neither cool nor tough is close enough for me.
The problem is that you want to have fun at the expense of other people, and the other people aren't interested in it. That's why you guys hate Trammel in UO so much; your victims left, leaving you with only people who didn't want the restrictions.
[quote]I see so many people posting on these forums complaining how boring it is....and PvP without any consequences does get boring. Its a fact.[/.quote]
It's not a fact, unless you can explain the popularity of PVP in FPSs, RTSs, and TBSs, none of which have an equivalent to 'consequences in an MMO'
The OP specifically talked about UO, which is a full-loot game, and Darkfall, which will be a full-loot game according to the developers and Shadowbane, which I'm not sure about. At least 2 of the 3 games he listed are full-loot games, therefore it's a safe bet that by 'hardcore PVP' he means a full-loot game.
Umm... isn't the fact that it takes a minute or less to recover from a death exactly what you're complaining about? If it's not, then what exactly are the 'consequences' that you want to have in game?
Why did you underline the word "has"? I just can't think of a sensible reason to do it there.
Actually, you're the one who's been whining; that's a fact. I've made comments about what I don't like in a game and why, you've whined about other people not liking your kind of game, people not thinking it's 'cool' to like your kind of game, and other stuff. It's also a fact that you've been flaming like crazy, accusing people of being weak and spineless for not liking your type of video game.
It's also not very clear to me why you think that I spent more time responding to you than playing games; I spent maybe 15 minutes on that post, while I spent hours playing games. That's a FACT!
I wasn't aware that there was really an argument to counter, could you lay out exactly what your argument is? "You're a wimp if you don't like my type of video game" doens't qualify as an argument to me, FYI.
My response hasn't been a waste of mine, I enjoyed writing it. Maybe you should reconsider posting here if you don't actually enjoy it.
It's better be hated for who you are, than loved for who you aren't.
You think it's the Non-PvPers that have ruined future chances of PvP games? Wake up and realize it's fellow PvPers that did that. PvP games tend to be the most hacked and exploited games out there. Just look at DAOC and Shadowbane. Buffsbots, 3rd party player map exploits, macro programs, dual boxing. Non-PvPers didn't do that, it was the so called "hardcore players".
Not to mention community. (Not going to say their name) Exactly who wants to play a game with a guild that likes to takes pictures, of them ganking you saying words like "Circle Jerk". That create whole dummie guilds with PornStar names. That spend 90% of their game time looking for terrain/wall exploits.
You want to know who really ruined PvP Games? Need to look no further then the people that enjoy PvP games.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.