You copy and paste skills are worth my friend yet you seem to be responding to more than what I wrote.
Where did I say carebears ruined pvp ? I merely stated that PvP is not where the money is at, so that's why companies make games for carebears instead of hardcore pvpers.
Also I never said UO was ruined by carebears. UO pvp was ruined by Trammel, and as you can clearly say I admitted Trammel was the saviour of the game as a whole.
Also you forgot the example of a certain WoW guild ganking a in-game funeral, that was HILARIOUS.
Shadowbane was not ruined by anyone but the game developers who simply made a crappy game.
Daoc was a highly succesull game, it just hit a birckwall called WoW. It's pvp is pretty carebear except for the pvp servers which were pretty decent.
What's wrong with taking porn star names ? Why shouldn't someone take any name they like as long as it is not a swear or racial slur. A person who understands that it's a porn name is already steeped in filth so he can't possibly be insulted .
It's better be hated for who you are, than loved for who you aren't.
Originally posted by Steelarm011It seems like the current trend is that to be cool you have to hate PvP and playerlooting. I see it all the time on these forums.
As you said, "Waah waah waahh...stop whining." Do you need a towel to dry your tears over the fact that the entire world doesn't agree with you? "Waah waah. Get a bottle." And maybe grow an actual spine to, not just a 'I can fight people in a computer game' spine. Once you have some actual backbone, you'll be able to argue without sobbing over the fact that people don't agree with you.
Also, can you provide an example of threads that demonstrate your assertion above, or is it just a 'fact' that you made up? I haven't seen any threads where people other than 'hardcore' PVPers even talked about coolness, or said that you're only cool if you don't like PVP, or anything like that. I do see plenty of threads like this one where 'hardcore' PVPers get a bad response because they insult everyone who doesn't like their style of play, saying that others don't have backbones, are wimps, and the like, but that's not the same thing. The whole 'coolness' thing seems to be primarly a concern of the 'hardcore'.
Pan, why did you bother coming back to this thread? Is it to raise self esteem? A school project?
Guess what Pan? Youve just flamed me. Bigtime. Im not going to dig up old threads for you to look at as an example becuase this thread is one of them.
Im not going to bother to reply to the rest of this response, becuase its the same crap youve given me in the last one. Instead, Ive decided to quote myself on it for your reading pleasure:
Originally posted by Steelarm011
It seems like the current trend is that to be cool you have to hate PvP and playerlooting. I see it all the time on these forums.
I never said it WAS cool to be tough to beat up people and gank them. Read my wording again before you give me another lame response like the rest this thread has seen. This is the same type of response that we all get "You think youre cool and tough cause you like to kill other players and be mean and be a bully!" give me a break, it doesnt work like that. Not all players want to be mean and bully others. ALot of us want to have fun and have freedom and not have the restrictions that developers put on the games.
Since you obviously ignored the whole paragraph, im giving it back to you. There you go. Now, READ IT. Thank you.
I never said it WAS cool to be tough to beat up people and gank them. Read my wording again before you give me another lame response like the rest this thread has seen.
So do you think that games which are about beating people up and taking their stuff are cool, or that it's cool to like and play such games?
Again, your using the same strategy of making PvP'rs out to be the bad guy, when really they are not. What is the difference of killing someone maliciously and having them die and killing someone maliciously and looting their corpse? None, the only difference is that there is a higher consequence.
This is the same type of response that we all get "You think youre cool and tough cause you like to kill other players and be mean and be a bully!" give me a break, it doesnt work like that. Not all players want to be mean and bully others.
You said that people who don't like your style of video game are not tough, and sarcastically asked if their lack of toughness makes them cool. While I'm not interested enough to dig through your other posts, saying that people who don't like games that are about beating up other people and taking their stuff are neither cool nor tough is close enough for me.
I didnt "sarcastically" ask if their lack of tougness makes them cool. Im actually wondering if thats the trend nowawadays. Why are you obssessed over this "cool" factor? Are you insecure? Read my other posts again please... I never said people that like more carebearish games are uncool or not tough. Seriously man...this whole victim deal is getting ridiculous.
ALot of us want to have fun and have freedom and not have the restrictions that developers put on the games.
The problem is that you want to have fun at the expense of other people, and the other people aren't interested in it. That's why you guys hate Trammel in UO so much; your victims left, leaving you with only people who didn't want the restrictions.
[quote]I see so many people posting on these forums complaining how boring it is....and PvP without any consequences does get boring. Its a fact.[/.quote]
It's not a fact, unless you can explain the popularity of PVP in FPSs, RTSs, and TBSs, none of which have an equivalent to 'consequences in an MMO'
Like I said again, thats not the whole PvP population. Your singing the same song. Your the victim, im the assailant.
This is a prime example of the prejudice that goes on here. You automatically assume that I am a cold hearted person because I like PvP with a bit higher consequences. Thats pretty damn sad. I suggest you get over it and stop crying.
When did the OP say that? This thread is about hardcore PvP vs Modern lame PvP involving deaths that turn you into ghosts without any consequences. Whoever said that you'll be losing all your gear at once?
The OP specifically talked about UO, which is a full-loot game, and Darkfall, which will be a full-loot game according to the developers and Shadowbane, which I'm not sure about. At least 2 of the 3 games he listed are full-loot games, therefore it's a safe bet that by 'hardcore PVP' he means a full-loot game.
Shadowbane and AC Darktide were not full looting. Darkfall hasnt come out yet.
It can take you almost instantanously to 2 or 3 minutes. How long does it take you in MMO's to ressurect? Umm....a minute maybe? Maybe even less.
Umm... isn't the fact that it takes a minute or less to recover from a death exactly what you're complaining about? If it's not, then what exactly are the 'consequences' that you want to have in game?
No I'm not complaining about that. Conseuqences = looting, temporary stat loss, and maybe something different, I dont know yet, im not a dev.
Your response has more words in it trying to flame me than getting to tell any facts.
Why did you underline the word "has"? I just can't think of a sensible reason to do it there.
I underline words so it can get through to you. Your post is proof that sometimes it works...and sometimes it doesnt.
Your spirit is more busy not playing games but WHINING ABOUT IT and flaming people like me on these forums who are trying to get you to see it a different way, but apparently your too thickheaded to realize that.
Actually, you're the one who's been whining; that's a fact. I've made comments about what I don't like in a game and why, you've whined about other people not liking your kind of game, people not thinking it's 'cool' to like your kind of game, and other stuff. It's also a fact that you've been flaming like crazy, accusing people of being weak and spineless for not liking your type of video game.
It's also not very clear to me why you think that I spent more time responding to you than playing games; I spent maybe 15 minutes on that post, while I spent hours playing games. That's a FACT!
I have not whined about people not liking my type of game. Get off the whining subject (your the official whiner here, not me, I dont want that title). But I am arguing my viewpoint on PvP and how its been watered down and how potentially fun PvP could be if there were more consequences to it.
Your the one whining that I am a "mean person" your the one whining that "I like to make other players cry" etc etc etc with the same crap that I hear from everyone else. Well this prejudice stops here.
Get your facts straight before you try to counter my argument again.
I wasn't aware that there was really an argument to counter, could you lay out exactly what your argument is? "You're a wimp if you don't like my type of video game" doens't qualify as an argument to me, FYI.
See above
This response has been a waste of my time.
My response hasn't been a waste of mine, I enjoyed writing it. Maybe you should reconsider posting here if you don't actually enjoy it.
I have a suggestion for you: GAL (Means get a life)
Have a nice day.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Originally posted by shadoozo Well it seems us hardcore PVP lovers lost the war, it seems carebears have now won, all games being released currently are carebear, PVP in games no is a joke, "Oh we dont want to be killed and have our loot stolen cause i might cry" type players have now won the war.
UO will never get a pre trammle server, shadowbane is extremly unplayable due to its bugs,interface etc
Hardcore PVP is lost, i use to count on darkfall but that seems like a lost cause, a game that was supposed to be released in 2003 still hasnt been released yet and we still dont have ALOT of updated info on that game, seems like a lost cause.
WELP time to give in hardcore PVPers and join the carebears, RAID OR DIE!
Originally posted by Roin You think it's the Non-PvPers that have ruined future chances of PvP games? Wake up and realize it's fellow PvPers that did that. PvP games tend to be the most hacked and exploited games out there. Just look at DAOC and Shadowbane. Buffsbots, 3rd party player map exploits, macro programs, dual boxing. Non-PvPers didn't do that, it was the so called "hardcore players".
Not to mention community. (Not going to say their name) Exactly who wants to play a game with a guild that likes to takes pictures, of them ganking you saying words like "Circle Jerk". That create whole dummie guilds with PornStar names. That spend 90% of their game time looking for terrain/wall exploits.
You want to know who really ruined PvP Games? Need to look no further then the people that enjoy PvP games.
Heh. EVE is a PvP game, as well as the least-exploited MMOG in existance, with one of the strongest communities.
But blaming the catastrophic failure of the shadowbane devs on the players is a good idea. I know I've never seen a PvE game with a duping problem. Ever. No, really.
Originally posted by Me Also, can you provide an example of threads that demonstrate your assertion above, or is it just a 'fact' that you made up? I haven't seen any threads where people other than 'hardcore' PVPers even talked about coolness, or said that you're only cool if you don't like PVP, or anything like that. I do see plenty of threads like this one where 'hardcore' PVPers get a bad response because they insult everyone who doesn't like their style of play, saying that others don't have backbones, are wimps, and the like, but that's not the same thing. The whole 'coolness' thing seems to be primarly a concern of the 'hardcore'.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 Im not going to dig up old threads for you to look at as an example becuase this thread is one of them.
Nope, this thread is a perfect example of 'hardcore' PVPers insulting everyone who doesn't like their style of play and saying that others are wimps for not shating the 'hardcore' PVPers video game preference, and people responding to them in the same tone. For example, the opening post talks about "carebears" (a derogatory term), accuses people people who don't like the 'hardcore' PVP of not liking it because "i might cry". Your entrance to the thread was marked by again calling people "carebear" if they don't share your preferences, asserted that people who don't like your 'hardcore' PVP are not even gamers. Then in your second post, you asked the loveley question"Wheres your backbone? Is it cool to not be tough?"
This is, like I said before, a thread where the 'hardcore' PVPers get unfriendly responses because they keep insulting everyone who doesn't like they're preferred style of play. And even then, the responses have pretty much only been against 'kill them and take their stuff' PVP, not PVP in general.
Im not going to bother to reply to the rest of this response, becuase its the same crap youve given me in the last one. Instead, Ive decided to quote myself on it for your reading pleasure:
Except that you did reply to other parts of the response. You seem to spend more time whining that I flamed you, complaining that I posted to the thread, and detailing what you plan to do (though not following the plan) than posting the facts you were so insistent on people posting last time around. It's really odd that you complain about flaming when you've been flaming since your opening post on the thread, in support of the OP who was also flaming.
Since you obviously ignored the whole paragraph, im giving it back to you. There you go. Now, READ IT. Thank you.
I read it, and came up with a simple response, which you dodged. Do you or do you not think it's cool to like the style of game you're arguing for? I don't care if you've explicitly said it or not, that's just playing a silly word game. Whining that you didn't actually say that you think your preferred style of game is cool is just pathetic.
Posted by meSo do you think that games which are about beating people up and taking their stuff are cool, or that it's cool to like and play such games?
Again, your using the same strategy of making PvP'rs out to be the bad guy, when really they are not. What is the difference of killing someone maliciously and having them die and killing someone maliciously and looting their corpse? None, the only difference is that there is a higher consequence.
Notice the complete lack of answer to the core question? Just a bunch of whining that I'm making PVPers (actually only a small subset of PVPers, the 'take their stuff' crowd) out to be the bad guy for describing the kind of gameplay they want. It's quite telling that you're willing to argue that you didn't make a direct statement about the 'coolness', but also won't answer a simple, direct question about it.
Why are you obssessed over this "cool" factor? Are you insecure? Read my other posts again please...
Take your own advice about reading; you're the one who's been asking 'is it cool to...' and complaining that you believe it's not considered cool on these boards to like 'hardcore' PVP games. You seem to be doing a lot of projecting here, accusing other people of being insecure for discussing topics that you brought up in the first place.
I never said people that like more carebearish games are uncool or not tough. Seriously man...this whole victim deal is getting ridiculous.
Liar. "Wheres your backbone? Is it cool to not be tough?" comes right from your second post on the thread. And calling games 'carebearish' is saying that people who like those games are not tough; the carebears were a batch of stuffed animals with hearts and rainbows who were all about peace and love, pretty much the exact opposite of tough.
you postedI see so many people posting on these forums complaining how boring it is....and PvP without any consequences does get boring. Its a fact.
I respondedIt's not a fact, unless you can explain the popularity of PVP in FPSs, RTSs, and TBSs, none of which have an equivalent to 'consequences in an MMO'
you saidLike I said again, thats not the whole PvP population. Your singing the same song. Your the victim, im the assailant.
I put up the whole exchange because it's pretty telling. You made a claim that PVP without 'consequences' gets boring, I pointed out whole genres of games that are quite popular, all of which have no 'consequences' for losing in the sense meant here. You then made a nonsensical response, whining yet again about me allegedly portraying you as an assailint. That's why threads always seem to involve people accusing you of stuff, you take comments that simply discuss what's popular in different types of games as a personal attack.
I have not whined about people not liking my type of game. Get off the whining subject (your the official whiner here, not me, I dont want that title).
Haha, this whole thread is whining that people don't like your type of game. boo-hoo-hoo, game makers make games that other people find fun instead of games where you can gank people and take their stuff.
But I am arguing my viewpoint on PvP and how its been watered down and how potentially fun PvP could be if there were more consequences to it.
Nope, you're insulting people who don't like your style of play and insisting that your viewpoint is fact instead of opinion.
Your the one whining that I am a "mean person" your the one whining that "I like to make other players cry" etc etc etc with the same crap that I hear from everyone else. Well this prejudice stops here.
Your problem is that you just make stuff up out of whole cloth; I never said you were a "mean person" or that you "like to make other players cry", but for some reason you're quoting it like I used those exact words. I did respond directly to your questions like "Wheres your backbone? Is it cool to not be tough?", but if you don't want people to respond to what you say then don't say it.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 Originally posted by trike Originally posted by Steelarm011 My comments in green
When have I been flaming anyone? Look in my past posts, get your facts straight, Chessak. I have been polite and I havent resorted to flaming anyone in my past posts, including you.
Wow. Denial, river, Egypt, etc.
Notice how there are no facts and no other quotes to backup this comment.
Steel, you quoted my quote of your comments. Your comments in that very quote said to someone else, "Wah wah. Get a bottle." After quoting yourself (quoted by me) telling someon else to get a bottle, you said "When have I been flaming anyone?" Clearly you are not reading your own writing. Alternatively, if you don't call that "flaming" then I guess we have a different definition. Telling someone to "Get a bottle" is equivalent to calling them a baby, which is not an argument or a fact but an ad hominem attack, i.e., a flame.
Originally posted by Chessack Originally posted by Steelarm011 Originally posted by trike Originally posted by Steelarm011 My comments in green
When have I been flaming anyone? Look in my past posts, get your facts straight, Chessak. I have been polite and I havent resorted to flaming anyone in my past posts, including you.
Wow. Denial, river, Egypt, etc.
Notice how there are no facts and no other quotes to backup this comment.
Steel, you quoted my quote of your comments. Your comments in that very quote said to someone else, "Wah wah. Get a bottle." After quoting yourself (quoted by me) telling someon else to get a bottle, you said "When have I been flaming anyone?" Clearly you are not reading your own writing. Alternatively, if you don't call that "flaming" then I guess we have a different definition. Telling someone to "Get a bottle" is equivalent to calling them a baby, which is not an argument or a fact but an ad hominem attack, i.e., a flame.
C
Again you failed to read one of my earlier posts, bringing in a topic that is already closed. Therefore, I will post it here so you wont miss it this time. I will underline, resize and paint in yellow key parts.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 My comments in green
Originally posted by Chessack Originally posted by Steelarm011 It seems like the current trend is that to be cool you have to hate PvP and playerlooting. I see it all the time on these forums. But see, the implicit assumption in this comment is that the people responding to you -- for instance myself and Pan -- who are saying they don't like PVP or player looting, are trying to be cool. Pan and I both told you, we aren't trying to be cool. We're playing games to have fun, and avoiding what isn't fun. By constantly making references to "being cool" yourself, you are indicating that this is, at least in part, what motivates you. It is what you think about -- since none of the people you're responding to have ever mentioned being cool themsevles until you brought it up, and since you keep bringing it up, it must be on YOUR mind. And when we've said it is not on our minds at all (being cool) you have just taken out the flamethrower over it. It does not motivate me. This is what I see on these forums, this is what I read. So this is what I assume. I'm just taking in what I see. You guys are focusing on this "cool" bit which is not the point. The point of the matter is, I see a trend of people favoring a more passive, boring side of games. You say I'm missing the point...but I'm not. You keep on focusing that I think I'm cool cause I like to kill people. I dont. Youre missing the point. Open up your thoughts. I'm talking about this trend that I'm seeing in players.
ALot of us want to have fun and have freedom and not have the restrictions that developers put on the games. And some of us want to have fun without having other players put those restrictions on is (which is what is happening when you PK someone without warning -- you are basically putting a restriction on that player's gameplay). I see so many people posting on these forums complaining how boring it is....and PvP without any consequences does get boring. Its a fact. So if you find something boring, that is a fact. If we find a different thing boring (say, PVP just in general) we are "without backbone" or "trying to be cool" or perhaps carebears? Why not just accept that not everyone has fun the way you do? Since, that is reality. I don't care much for PVP, but it would never cross my mind to suggest that PVP should not exist, or that there shouldn't be open PVP games out there. If people want to make (and play) those games, go ahead! I understand that my preferences are evidence only of my preferenes -- and not of any "facts" about what other people may or may not like. I do accept that everyone has fun theyre own way. Now youre treating me like I am some kind of videogamer terrorist. I'm not. I am simply trying to put your view like mine. Stop trying to make me the enemy and you the victim, because it really is the other way around. I am particularly entertained that you said this...
Your so concentrated on the GRIND that you forget your also able to PvP and reap the benefits. Waah waah. Get a bottle. Note the part I highlighted. Then you have the nerve to post this:
Your response hasmore words in it trying to flame methan getting to tell any facts.
Saying "Waah waah. Get a bottle" is also a flame. I'll stipulate that Pan flamed you, but you've been flaming anyone who disagrees with you by calling them basically a baby (which is what "get a bottle" means), and various other names. If you want to disagree with someone, go ahead. But calling them whiners because they disagree with you is not a very good way to persuade anyone of your case. When have I been flaming anyone? Look in my past posts, get your facts straight, Chessak. I have been polite and I havent resorted to flaming anyone in my past posts, including you. Making me the bad guy wont help your argument Chessak, cause right now you have none. Pan's may have been a flame, but it didnt have any ill intent to it. I was trying to slap him back into his senses. Maybe it worked, maybe it didnt. (Meaning I admit to it) My posts may contain caps but thats because I simply want you to read what Im saying, because it seems to me like you skip right over my points. Again, your making me the enemy in this when in reality there is none. My comments in bold white.
Originally posted by Roin Cheesack, that is by far some of the most well written comments i've seen in a while on this site. I do not know where you gain all this patience you seem to have. I commend you for it though. Because I gave up on Steel's post quite a while ago. It's hard to convey thoughts and opinions to someone, that doesn't recognize any except his own. Well done, Cheesack. Well done.
No wonder why no one speaks out theyre opinions on PvP anymore. Again, you assume that I am some type of monster because I try to convey my ideas to you. You can treat me like I am crazy and that I dont listen, but I do. All of my past posts with the exception of this last one have included politeness, opinions and facts, acknowledgements of someone else's post, and an argument. There is nothing wrong in trying to tell you my opinion. But to you apparently there is, because I dont agree with you.
I acknowledge that you dont like losing your stuff when you die and that you may not like it, that you think its tough or that its bad or whatever. I know that, its the same song that has been sung. I know you cant stand some of the bullies that are online.
Treating me like I am some type of monster isnt helping your argument. No wonder why no one speaks out on these topics anymore, cause God forbid I disagree with you on hardcore PvP I may just be tooooo rough for you and tooooo mean. Since I like hardcore PvP I'm a mean person that sits in my basement, right? I sit in my basement all day with my mother and Im some geek with glasses, like Pan states, like all the other people who like a bit more freedom in their games to do what they want.
You know what really entertained me? When you said "Beautiful post" to Pan's post, when his post contained around a paragraph of flames. When I get my post in, I get berated for 5 words of flames that werent even intended to hurt him. It just amazes me at the blatant....prejudice. Yes, probably the name for whats going on here. You automatically assume that I am a mean person thats a geek that sits in his basement that wears glasses, that thinks "people are weak and have no backbone" because I like PvP. Me and the countless other people who are afraid to speak on here.
Guess what? Thats a form of prejudice.
I'm not being the closeminded one, you are. Instead of trying to acknowledge what I'm saying or at least respect my opinion youve made me the bad guy on here which is a common tactic on these forums with these types of arguments. You havent acknowledged anything that Ive posted, and yet berated me, told me "I'm a flamer" when I got flamed alot more by Pan, told me I'm close minded, and god knows what else. I suggest you look over what you have posted and maybe come up with a nicer response that maybe acknowledges what I said next time.
Enjoy. Case closed.
By the way, just for a chance for me to get all technical with you:
6 results for: Prejudice
1.
an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2.
any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.
3.
unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.
4.
such attitudes considered collectively: The war against prejudice is never-ending.
5.
damage or injury; detriment: a law that operated to the prejudice of the majority.
–verb (used with object)
6.
to affect with a prejudice, either favorable or unfavorable: His honesty and sincerity prejudiced us in his favor.
Anything else youd like to bring up? I'm all yours
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Steelarm, did someone tell you that this thread was a 'make the most unreadable post contest'? Because if it is, the the garbled, confusing mess above definately wins it.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 Pan, what do you want?
I'd like for the 'hardcore' crowd to stop all the crying that people have different gaming preferences, and to ditch the amusing combo of insulting people, then whining when people don't respond nicely to the insults. But I doubt you're going to acquire a clue.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 Pan, what do you want?
I'd like for the 'hardcore' crowd to stop all the crying that people have different gaming preferences, and to ditch the amusing combo of insulting people, then whining when people don't respond nicely to the insults. But I doubt you're going to acquire a clue.
owww my ears, your whining again. Are you ever going to stop being a hypocrite?
Refer to my posts above, Pan. Like I said I have a suggestion for you. Its called the GAL plan. Its a plan for you to Get-a-life, and it starts any day you wish. Join now!
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 Pan, this is intended for Chessak, Im sure he'll understand. Dont worry about this.
I'll respond to just this since I think any more colors or highlighting will hurt people's eyes.
You are right... I agreed with a post of Pan's that did mildly flame you. I should have pointed out that I did not agree with the flaming part. I've often said people should make such clarifications and I was in error not to do so. The rest of his post though, I did agree with.
Additionally, Pan's midly flamey comments were in response to a series of posts by you that have been much more extreme. You have repeatedly vilified, personally attacked, and ridiculed people who have done little more than state the opinion that they did not happen to like the same kind of game that you do (open free-for-all PVP). You have accused (quite literally) anyone who disagrees with you as doing so, not on logical grounds, but because they "have no backbone", are a "cry baby" or a "whiner" -- amongst other ad hominem attacks.
In short, in the face of such vigorous flaming by you, I thought Pan's response was relatively measured, and although I do no thold with personal attacks in any form, I let his slip by because it was so much less intense, less personal, and less hostile, than yours have been. In other words, if you want to be treated with respect... you need to treat others with respect.
At this point it's probably best if we let this thread die, since it's not going anywhere useful.
Originally posted by Chessack Originally posted by Steelarm011 Pan, this is intended for Chessak, Im sure he'll understand. Dont worry about this.
I'll respond to just this since I think any more colors or highlighting will hurt people's eyes.
You are right... I agreed with a post of Pan's that did mildly flame you. I should have pointed out that I did not agree with the flaming part. I've often said people should make such clarifications and I was in error not to do so. The rest of his post though, I did agree with.
Additionally, Pan's midly flamey comments were in response to a series of posts by you that have been much more extreme. You have repeatedly vilified, personally attacked, and ridiculed people who have done little more than state the opinion that they did not happen to like the same kind of game that you do (open free-for-all PVP). You have accused (quite literally) anyone who disagrees with you as doing so, not on logical grounds, but because they "have no backbone", are a "cry baby" or a "whiner" -- amongst other ad hominem attacks.
In short, in the face of such vigorous flaming by you, I thought Pan's response was relatively measured, and although I do no thold with personal attacks in any form, I let his slip by because it was so much less intense, less personal, and less hostile, than yours have been. In other words, if you want to be treated with respect... you need to treat others with respect.
At this point it's probably best if we let this thread die, since it's not going anywhere useful.
C
Personally attacked, vilified people? You are again resorting to the same tacticts that I have stated before, saying that I am the assailant and you the victim. You have ignored my highlights in my posts, brushing them away. (I also find it quite ironic im the one supplying the posts with the proof while you sit back and fire false accusations at me)
I did not say outright that they do not have a backbone. I asked them where was it. An insult is only taken, not given. I have said that people seem to have lost the spirit of gaming - that isnt an insult, it is an observation. In fact, its more of a rally - but it obviously didnt work. Just telling someone to "toughen up" isnt a flame, its simply trying to get them to their senses. Its only a game, guys.I cant find any other way to get them to see my point unless I was there in real life to talk to them.
Please stop this useless tactic and read my posts. I have been willing to let this thread die, but people keep on bringing things up. I will not stop defending my position, because its what I beielive in. Maybe, if anything you can respect that.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Too many posts in this topic now to even to bother reading through them all. But, I guess that's why so many others have used the "new thread" ability to rehash the same stuff that's already been said here.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 owww my ears, your whining again. Are you ever going to stop being a hypocrite?
How exactly am I being a hypocrite? Or is this another 'fact' that you've just made up? And how does what I posted qualify as whining? Or is this just another Steelarm 'fact'?
Refer to my posts above, Pan.
You mean the posts where you accused people who don't like your particulat playstyle of not having backbones, being wimps, and being carebears? Or the ones where you keep denying it even when it's quoted back to you?
Like I said I have a suggestion for you. Its called the GAL plan. Its a plan for you to Get-a-life, and it starts any day you wish. Join now!
"Get a life" is a rather silly insult on an internet messageboard dedicated to talking about computer games, especially when it's a board dedicated to talking about MMORPGs, the biggest 'no-life' games around. It's especially silly when you're obviously spending more time posting here than I am. But use it again over and over, I'm sure you're convinced you're wounding me horribly, though you won't be able to take my stuff.
Originally posted by shadoozo Well it seems us hardcore PVP lovers lost the war, it seems carebears have now won, all games being released currently are carebear, PVP in games no is a joke, "Oh we dont want to be killed and have our loot stolen cause i might cry" type players have now won the war.
UO will never get a pre trammle server, shadowbane is extremly unplayable due to its bugs,interface etc
Hardcore PVP is lost, i use to count on darkfall but that seems like a lost cause, a game that was supposed to be released in 2003 still hasnt been released yet and we still dont have ALOT of updated info on that game, seems like a lost cause.
WELP time to give in hardcore PVPers and join the carebears, RAID OR DIE!
I think "Hardcore PVPERS" should stop fooling themselves and go by their real name "GANKERS".
Thats the main whine here it seems, these so called "Hardcore PVPERS" are mad because alot of games comming out have taken steps to hinder them from ganking people.
Anyone who really knows me on this board knows I love PVP and think ALL MMORPG's should have them. But one thing I cant stand is games that allow the gankers to run around unchecked. Games should be entertaining, fun, challanging and exciting not fustrating which you get when gankers have there way. I should not have to worry about being killed over and over on my lvl 5 toon by a lvl 59 who is there just to fustrate and annoy. I shiould not have to worry about that group of 10 lvl 60's running around slaughtering people 40 levels under them as they try to level up.
If you want to PVP go assualt that keep that has others around your level defending it. If you want to PVP go gank others around your level trying to quest. If you want to PVP go defend your castle that is underseige from people around you level. Basicly if you want to PVP go find a freaking challange and stop taking the cowards way out.
------------------------------ You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Originally posted by Steelarm011 owww my ears, your whining again. Are you ever going to stop being a hypocrite?
How exactly am I being a hypocrite? Or is this another 'fact' that you've just made up? And how does what I posted qualify as whining? Or is this just another Steelarm 'fact'?
Your being a hypocrite by whining in silly posts like the one before about the "hardcore PvP crowd complaining all the time" when its you who makes these posts that really have no positive contribution to the thread. Like this one that I quoted, for example.
Refer to my posts above, Pan.
You mean the posts where you accused people who don't like your particulat playstyle of not having backbones, being wimps, and being carebears? Or the ones where you keep denying it even when it's quoted back to you?
Ignore my past posts, argue some more, flame me, make a useless post, repeat. Apparently thats all you know how to do instead of strike up an intelligble argument. You dont read my posts and acknowledge them, so your not worth the time repeating what Ive said a thousand times.
Like I said I have a suggestion for you. Its called the GAL plan. Its a plan for you to Get-a-life, and it starts any day you wish. Join now!
"Get a life" is a rather silly insult on an internet messageboard dedicated to talking about computer games, especially when it's a board dedicated to talking about MMORPGs, the biggest 'no-life' games around. It's especially silly when you're obviously spending more time posting here than I am. But use it again over and over, I'm sure you're convinced you're wounding me horribly, though you won't be able to take my stuff.
Congratulations, Pantastic! You just managed to flame and insult the ENTIRE MEMBERBASE OF MMORPG.COM AND MMOS. Youve reached new lows, some things even I couldnt have imagined possible.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 Ignore my past posts, argue some more, flame me, make a useless post, repeat. Apparently thats all you know how to do instead of strike up an intelligble argument. You dont read my posts and acknowledge them, so your not worth the time repeating what Ive said a thousand times.
Your real complaint is that I and others here don't ignore your past posts, we refuse to just pretend that you didn't insult everyone who doesn't like your preferred playstyle, accuse them of not having backbones, accuse them of being wimps, and all of the other stuff you posted. Yeah, sure, you offered 'explanations' that you didn't really mean it, that it was all just to try to motivate people or something, and that when you asked where people's backbones were you really, truly didn't mean to imply that they lacked backbones (hint: they're on the back, no need to ask in the future). But no one actually believes your excuses.
And I ripped apart what arguments I could find from you, though it's kind of hard to tell - you spend much more time whining that people responded to you as insultingly as you talked to them, or whining about how people are against PVP on this messageboard (though can't point to a single thread to back that up), or trying to backpedal and explain that you didn't really mean anything that you said before. Your argument really just seems to be something like 'you guys are all wimps for not liking the same game as me, why are you such wimps?', which is not exactly hard to refute. Or mock.
Congratulations, Pantastic! You just managed to flame and insult the ENTIRE MEMBERBASE OF MMORPG.COM AND MMOS. Youve reached new lows, some things even I couldnt have imagined possible.
Oh horrors, I am undone! Woe is me, for pointing out that posting on messageboards and playing MMOs don't usually qualify as 'having a life', now no one will think I'm 'cool' anymore! If I was you, I'd be crying myself to sleep!
This thread delivers. Nope im not ganna read all this crap but I will say all the games out now are carebear. My best gaming memories are from shadowbane because it didnt "hold your hand" and players could do whatever.
I did not say outright that they do not have a backbone. I asked them where was it. An insult is only taken, not given. That's a rather clumsy and obvious dodge. When you say to someone "Where's your backbone," the fact that you think he or she has none, is quite plain. To say "I didn't *actually say* you had no backbone" is to pretend that words do not mean what they mean. When you say, "Waah wah. Here's a bottle," the meaning of that is QUITE plain, and it is not something that we're "misreading." Either you are mis-stating it, or you are flaming and then, when presented with incontrovertible evidence of the flame, dodging it, using the fact that you didn't actually say the words, "You are a baby," but rather, said, "Waah waah" which implies Pan is a baby without you actually saying it. Personally, if you're going to flame, I'd prefer you at least come out and do it honestly rather than doing it obliquely and then pretending the flames are "all in the reader's mind." That's dishonest. But perhaps I should not expect anything different from a person whose preferred style of gaming seems to be to shoot someone 20 levels lower than him without warning.
I have said that people seem to have lost the spirit of gaming - that isnt an insult, it is an observation. In fact, its more of a rally - but it obviously didnt work. Just telling someone to "toughen up" isnt a flame, its simply trying to get them to their senses. Its only a game, guys.I cant find any other way to get them to see my point unless I was there in real life to talk to them.If it was your intent to basically say, "Buck up! Come on guys, it's all in fun, you can do it!" you did not do so very artfully. "Waah waah get a bottle" is not the same thing, and carries connotations of looking down your nose at someone, not encouraging them. You cannot be derogatory and encouraging at the same time.
My answers in pink italics. Don't ask me why I chose that color... I have no idea.
Neither has "won" anything. There are PVP heavy games in development today. Darkfall is one of them. I believe Tabula Rasa plans to be heavily PVP as well. Roma Victor just released, as did Dark and Light, both PVP centric.
Problem is: Nobody plays them.
EVE is one of the most hardcore PVP games on the market and has over 140,000 players now. And growing. Lineage II has over 1.2 million players and it's Open/FFA PVP as well.
So PVP isn't dead and it isn't as unpopular as people would like to believe. The problem has been that other than Pre-Trammel UO there haven't been very many well developed games that included FFA PVP in their makeup. EVE and L2 being the only ones that were 'good'. And L2's anime graphics and horrible xp grind kept it from being widely accepted in Europe and the US. EVE's smaller because, in general, Sci-Fi is a much smaller market than Fantasy. If you look at the Sci-Fi market it only ever consisted of about 400k players. EVE has around 1/3 of that market. On most polls I've seen only 14% of MMO Players respond that they are interested in science fiction. So that sounds about right since we know the MMO Market in general is about 7mil players or so, maybe 8 if we're generous... which puts the potential sci-fi market at about 700k or so. Eve having 140k of that potential 700k is pretty darn impressive considering the only other truely successful sci-fi MMO only has 110k, currently (SWG).
But FFA PVP is not as unpopular as people who dislike PVP would like to believe. When properly implemented it adds worlds to the excitement and fun of an MMORPG. Problem is that most companies don't take the time to do it right. CCP did... and it's paid off in spades.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Comments
Where did I say carebears ruined pvp ? I merely stated that PvP is not where the money is at, so that's why companies make games for carebears instead of hardcore pvpers.
Also I never said UO was ruined by carebears. UO pvp was ruined by Trammel, and as you can clearly say I admitted Trammel was the saviour of the game as a whole.
Also you forgot the example of a certain WoW guild ganking a in-game funeral, that was HILARIOUS.
Shadowbane was not ruined by anyone but the game developers who simply made a crappy game.
Daoc was a highly succesull game, it just hit a birckwall called WoW. It's pvp is pretty carebear except for the pvp servers which were pretty decent.
What's wrong with taking porn star names ? Why shouldn't someone take any name they like as long as it is not a swear or racial slur. A person who understands that it's a porn name is already steeped in filth so he can't possibly be insulted .
It's better be hated for who you are, than loved for who you aren't.
As you said, "Waah waah waahh...stop whining." Do you need a towel to dry your tears over the fact that the entire world doesn't agree with you? "Waah waah. Get a bottle." And maybe grow an actual spine to, not just a 'I can fight people in a computer game' spine. Once you have some actual backbone, you'll be able to argue without sobbing over the fact that people don't agree with you.
Also, can you provide an example of threads that demonstrate your assertion above, or is it just a 'fact' that you made up? I haven't seen any threads where people other than 'hardcore' PVPers even talked about coolness, or said that you're only cool if you don't like PVP, or anything like that. I do see plenty of threads like this one where 'hardcore' PVPers get a bad response because they insult everyone who doesn't like their style of play, saying that others don't have backbones, are wimps, and the like, but that's not the same thing. The whole 'coolness' thing seems to be primarly a concern of the 'hardcore'.
Pan, why did you bother coming back to this thread? Is it to raise self esteem? A school project?
Guess what Pan? Youve just flamed me. Bigtime. Im not going to dig up old threads for you to look at as an example becuase this thread is one of them.
Im not going to bother to reply to the rest of this response, becuase its the same crap youve given me in the last one. Instead, Ive decided to quote myself on it for your reading pleasure:
Originally posted by Steelarm011
It seems like the current trend is that to be cool you have to hate PvP and playerlooting. I see it all the time on these forums.
I never said it WAS cool to be tough to beat up people and gank them. Read my wording again before you give me another lame response like the rest this thread has seen. This is the same type of response that we all get "You think youre cool and tough cause you like to kill other players and be mean and be a bully!" give me a break, it doesnt work like that. Not all players want to be mean and bully others. ALot of us want to have fun and have freedom and not have the restrictions that developers put on the games.
Since you obviously ignored the whole paragraph, im giving it back to you. There you go. Now, READ IT. Thank you.
So do you think that games which are about beating people up and taking their stuff are cool, or that it's cool to like and play such games?
Again, your using the same strategy of making PvP'rs out to be the bad guy, when really they are not. What is the difference of killing someone maliciously and having them die and killing someone maliciously and looting their corpse? None, the only difference is that there is a higher consequence.
You said that people who don't like your style of video game are not tough, and sarcastically asked if their lack of toughness makes them cool. While I'm not interested enough to dig through your other posts, saying that people who don't like games that are about beating up other people and taking their stuff are neither cool nor tough is close enough for me.
I didnt "sarcastically" ask if their lack of tougness makes them cool. Im actually wondering if thats the trend nowawadays. Why are you obssessed over this "cool" factor? Are you insecure? Read my other posts again please... I never said people that like more carebearish games are uncool or not tough. Seriously man...this whole victim deal is getting ridiculous.
The problem is that you want to have fun at the expense of other people, and the other people aren't interested in it. That's why you guys hate Trammel in UO so much; your victims left, leaving you with only people who didn't want the restrictions.
[quote]I see so many people posting on these forums complaining how boring it is....and PvP without any consequences does get boring. Its a fact.[/.quote]
It's not a fact, unless you can explain the popularity of PVP in FPSs, RTSs, and TBSs, none of which have an equivalent to 'consequences in an MMO'
Like I said again, thats not the whole PvP population. Your singing the same song. Your the victim, im the assailant.
This is a prime example of the prejudice that goes on here. You automatically assume that I am a cold hearted person because I like PvP with a bit higher consequences. Thats pretty damn sad. I suggest you get over it and stop crying.
The OP specifically talked about UO, which is a full-loot game, and Darkfall, which will be a full-loot game according to the developers and Shadowbane, which I'm not sure about. At least 2 of the 3 games he listed are full-loot games, therefore it's a safe bet that by 'hardcore PVP' he means a full-loot game.
Shadowbane and AC Darktide were not full looting. Darkfall hasnt come out yet.
Umm... isn't the fact that it takes a minute or less to recover from a death exactly what you're complaining about? If it's not, then what exactly are the 'consequences' that you want to have in game?
No I'm not complaining about that. Conseuqences = looting, temporary stat loss, and maybe something different, I dont know yet, im not a dev.
Why did you underline the word "has"? I just can't think of a sensible reason to do it there.
I underline words so it can get through to you. Your post is proof that sometimes it works...and sometimes it doesnt.
Actually, you're the one who's been whining; that's a fact. I've made comments about what I don't like in a game and why, you've whined about other people not liking your kind of game, people not thinking it's 'cool' to like your kind of game, and other stuff. It's also a fact that you've been flaming like crazy, accusing people of being weak and spineless for not liking your type of video game.
It's also not very clear to me why you think that I spent more time responding to you than playing games; I spent maybe 15 minutes on that post, while I spent hours playing games. That's a FACT!
I have not whined about people not liking my type of game. Get off the whining subject (your the official whiner here, not me, I dont want that title). But I am arguing my viewpoint on PvP and how its been watered down and how potentially fun PvP could be if there were more consequences to it.
Your the one whining that I am a "mean person" your the one whining that "I like to make other players cry" etc etc etc with the same crap that I hear from everyone else. Well this prejudice stops here.
I wasn't aware that there was really an argument to counter, could you lay out exactly what your argument is? "You're a wimp if you don't like my type of video game" doens't qualify as an argument to me, FYI.
See above
My response hasn't been a waste of mine, I enjoyed writing it. Maybe you should reconsider posting here if you don't actually enjoy it.
I have a suggestion for you: GAL (Means get a life)
Have a nice day.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Naw
www.thronesofchaos.com
But blaming the catastrophic failure of the shadowbane devs on the players is a good idea. I know I've never seen a PvE game with a duping problem. Ever. No, really.
Nope, this thread is a perfect example of 'hardcore' PVPers insulting everyone who doesn't like their style of play and saying that others are wimps for not shating the 'hardcore' PVPers video game preference, and people responding to them in the same tone. For example, the opening post talks about "carebears" (a derogatory term), accuses people people who don't like the 'hardcore' PVP of not liking it because "i might cry". Your entrance to the thread was marked by again calling people "carebear" if they don't share your preferences, asserted that people who don't like your 'hardcore' PVP are not even gamers. Then in your second post, you asked the loveley question"Wheres your backbone? Is it cool to not be tough?"
This is, like I said before, a thread where the 'hardcore' PVPers get unfriendly responses because they keep insulting everyone who doesn't like they're preferred style of play. And even then, the responses have pretty much only been against 'kill them and take their stuff' PVP, not PVP in general.
Except that you did reply to other parts of the response. You seem to spend more time whining that I flamed you, complaining that I posted to the thread, and detailing what you plan to do (though not following the plan) than posting the facts you were so insistent on people posting last time around. It's really odd that you complain about flaming when you've been flaming since your opening post on the thread, in support of the OP who was also flaming.
I read it, and came up with a simple response, which you dodged. Do you or do you not think it's cool to like the style of game you're arguing for? I don't care if you've explicitly said it or not, that's just playing a silly word game. Whining that you didn't actually say that you think your preferred style of game is cool is just pathetic.
Notice the complete lack of answer to the core question? Just a bunch of whining that I'm making PVPers (actually only a small subset of PVPers, the 'take their stuff' crowd) out to be the bad guy for describing the kind of gameplay they want. It's quite telling that you're willing to argue that you didn't make a direct statement about the 'coolness', but also won't answer a simple, direct question about it.
Take your own advice about reading; you're the one who's been asking 'is it cool to...' and complaining that you believe it's not considered cool on these boards to like 'hardcore' PVP games. You seem to be doing a lot of projecting here, accusing other people of being insecure for discussing topics that you brought up in the first place.
Liar. "Wheres your backbone? Is it cool to not be tough?" comes right from your second post on the thread. And calling games 'carebearish' is saying that people who like those games are not tough; the carebears were a batch of stuffed animals with hearts and rainbows who were all about peace and love, pretty much the exact opposite of tough.
I put up the whole exchange because it's pretty telling. You made a claim that PVP without 'consequences' gets boring, I pointed out whole genres of games that are quite popular, all of which have no 'consequences' for losing in the sense meant here. You then made a nonsensical response, whining yet again about me allegedly portraying you as an assailint. That's why threads always seem to involve people accusing you of stuff, you take comments that simply discuss what's popular in different types of games as a personal attack.
Haha, this whole thread is whining that people don't like your type of game. boo-hoo-hoo, game makers make games that other people find fun instead of games where you can gank people and take their stuff.
Nope, you're insulting people who don't like your style of play and insisting that your viewpoint is fact instead of opinion.
Your problem is that you just make stuff up out of whole cloth; I never said you were a "mean person" or that you "like to make other players cry", but for some reason you're quoting it like I used those exact words. I did respond directly to your questions like "Wheres your backbone? Is it cool to not be tough?", but if you don't want people to respond to what you say then don't say it.
Wow. Denial, river, Egypt, etc.
Notice how there are no facts and no other quotes to backup this comment.
Steel, you quoted my quote of your comments. Your comments in that very quote said to someone else, "Wah wah. Get a bottle." After quoting yourself (quoted by me) telling someon else to get a bottle, you said "When have I been flaming anyone?" Clearly you are not reading your own writing. Alternatively, if you don't call that "flaming" then I guess we have a different definition. Telling someone to "Get a bottle" is equivalent to calling them a baby, which is not an argument or a fact but an ad hominem attack, i.e., a flame.
C
Wow. Denial, river, Egypt, etc.
Notice how there are no facts and no other quotes to backup this comment.
Steel, you quoted my quote of your comments. Your comments in that very quote said to someone else, "Wah wah. Get a bottle." After quoting yourself (quoted by me) telling someon else to get a bottle, you said "When have I been flaming anyone?" Clearly you are not reading your own writing. Alternatively, if you don't call that "flaming" then I guess we have a different definition. Telling someone to "Get a bottle" is equivalent to calling them a baby, which is not an argument or a fact but an ad hominem attack, i.e., a flame.
C
No wonder why no one speaks out theyre opinions on PvP anymore. Again, you assume that I am some type of monster because I try to convey my ideas to you. You can treat me like I am crazy and that I dont listen, but I do. All of my past posts with the exception of this last one have included politeness, opinions and facts, acknowledgements of someone else's post, and an argument. There is nothing wrong in trying to tell you my opinion. But to you apparently there is, because I dont agree with you.
I acknowledge that you dont like losing your stuff when you die and that you may not like it, that you think its tough or that its bad or whatever. I know that, its the same song that has been sung. I know you cant stand some of the bullies that are online.
Treating me like I am some type of monster isnt helping your argument. No wonder why no one speaks out on these topics anymore, cause God forbid I disagree with you on hardcore PvP I may just be tooooo rough for you and tooooo mean. Since I like hardcore PvP I'm a mean person that sits in my basement, right? I sit in my basement all day with my mother and Im some geek with glasses, like Pan states, like all the other people who like a bit more freedom in their games to do what they want.
You know what really entertained me? When you said "Beautiful post" to Pan's post, when his post contained around a paragraph of flames. When I get my post in, I get berated for 5 words of flames that werent even intended to hurt him. It just amazes me at the blatant....prejudice. Yes, probably the name for whats going on here. You automatically assume that I am a mean person thats a geek that sits in his basement that wears glasses, that thinks "people are weak and have no backbone" because I like PvP. Me and the countless other people who are afraid to speak on here.
Guess what? Thats a form of prejudice.
I'm not being the closeminded one, you are. Instead of trying to acknowledge what I'm saying or at least respect my opinion youve made me the bad guy on here which is a common tactic on these forums with these types of arguments. You havent acknowledged anything that Ive posted, and yet berated me, told me "I'm a flamer" when I got flamed alot more by Pan, told me I'm close minded, and god knows what else. I suggest you look over what you have posted and maybe come up with a nicer response that maybe acknowledges what I said next time.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Steelarm, did someone tell you that this thread was a 'make the most unreadable post contest'? Because if it is, the the garbled, confusing mess above definately wins it.
Pan, what do you want? You want proof and then you want something edited. Sigh. Okay, I'll edit it.
EDIT: there, i resized and colored key parts. Pan, this is intended for Chessak, Im sure he'll understand. Dont worry about this.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
I'd like for the 'hardcore' crowd to stop all the crying that people have different gaming preferences, and to ditch the amusing combo of insulting people, then whining when people don't respond nicely to the insults. But I doubt you're going to acquire a clue.
I'd like for the 'hardcore' crowd to stop all the crying that people have different gaming preferences, and to ditch the amusing combo of insulting people, then whining when people don't respond nicely to the insults. But I doubt you're going to acquire a clue.
owww my ears, your whining again. Are you ever going to stop being a hypocrite?
Refer to my posts above, Pan. Like I said I have a suggestion for you. Its called the GAL plan. Its a plan for you to Get-a-life, and it starts any day you wish. Join now!
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
You are right... I agreed with a post of Pan's that did mildly flame you. I should have pointed out that I did not agree with the flaming part. I've often said people should make such clarifications and I was in error not to do so. The rest of his post though, I did agree with.
Additionally, Pan's midly flamey comments were in response to a series of posts by you that have been much more extreme. You have repeatedly vilified, personally attacked, and ridiculed people who have done little more than state the opinion that they did not happen to like the same kind of game that you do (open free-for-all PVP). You have accused (quite literally) anyone who disagrees with you as doing so, not on logical grounds, but because they "have no backbone", are a "cry baby" or a "whiner" -- amongst other ad hominem attacks.
In short, in the face of such vigorous flaming by you, I thought Pan's response was relatively measured, and although I do no thold with personal attacks in any form, I let his slip by because it was so much less intense, less personal, and less hostile, than yours have been. In other words, if you want to be treated with respect... you need to treat others with respect.
At this point it's probably best if we let this thread die, since it's not going anywhere useful.
C
You are right... I agreed with a post of Pan's that did mildly flame you. I should have pointed out that I did not agree with the flaming part. I've often said people should make such clarifications and I was in error not to do so. The rest of his post though, I did agree with.
Additionally, Pan's midly flamey comments were in response to a series of posts by you that have been much more extreme. You have repeatedly vilified, personally attacked, and ridiculed people who have done little more than state the opinion that they did not happen to like the same kind of game that you do (open free-for-all PVP). You have accused (quite literally) anyone who disagrees with you as doing so, not on logical grounds, but because they "have no backbone", are a "cry baby" or a "whiner" -- amongst other ad hominem attacks.
In short, in the face of such vigorous flaming by you, I thought Pan's response was relatively measured, and although I do no thold with personal attacks in any form, I let his slip by because it was so much less intense, less personal, and less hostile, than yours have been. In other words, if you want to be treated with respect... you need to treat others with respect.
At this point it's probably best if we let this thread die, since it's not going anywhere useful.
C
Personally attacked, vilified people? You are again resorting to the same tacticts that I have stated before, saying that I am the assailant and you the victim. You have ignored my highlights in my posts, brushing them away. (I also find it quite ironic im the one supplying the posts with the proof while you sit back and fire false accusations at me)
I did not say outright that they do not have a backbone. I asked them where was it. An insult is only taken, not given. I have said that people seem to have lost the spirit of gaming - that isnt an insult, it is an observation. In fact, its more of a rally - but it obviously didnt work. Just telling someone to "toughen up" isnt a flame, its simply trying to get them to their senses. Its only a game, guys.I cant find any other way to get them to see my point unless I was there in real life to talk to them.
Please stop this useless tactic and read my posts. I have been willing to let this thread die, but people keep on bringing things up. I will not stop defending my position, because its what I beielive in. Maybe, if anything you can respect that.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
How exactly am I being a hypocrite? Or is this another 'fact' that you've just made up? And how does what I posted qualify as whining? Or is this just another Steelarm 'fact'?
You mean the posts where you accused people who don't like your particulat playstyle of not having backbones, being wimps, and being carebears? Or the ones where you keep denying it even when it's quoted back to you?
"Get a life" is a rather silly insult on an internet messageboard dedicated to talking about computer games, especially when it's a board dedicated to talking about MMORPGs, the biggest 'no-life' games around. It's especially silly when you're obviously spending more time posting here than I am. But use it again over and over, I'm sure you're convinced you're wounding me horribly, though you won't be able to take my stuff.
Im waiting on Fury-online and AOC,
Both will have decent pvp elements that i think pvpers will enjoy!
Thats the main whine here it seems, these so called "Hardcore PVPERS" are mad because alot of games comming out have taken steps to hinder them from ganking people.
Anyone who really knows me on this board knows I love PVP and think ALL MMORPG's should have them. But one thing I cant stand is games that allow the gankers to run around unchecked. Games should be entertaining, fun, challanging and exciting not fustrating which you get when gankers have there way. I should not have to worry about being killed over and over on my lvl 5 toon by a lvl 59 who is there just to fustrate and annoy. I shiould not have to worry about that group of 10 lvl 60's running around slaughtering people 40 levels under them as they try to level up.
If you want to PVP go assualt that keep that has others around your level defending it. If you want to PVP go gank others around your level trying to quest. If you want to PVP go defend your castle that is underseige from people around you level. Basicly if you want to PVP go find a freaking challange and stop taking the cowards way out.
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You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
How exactly am I being a hypocrite? Or is this another 'fact' that you've just made up? And how does what I posted qualify as whining? Or is this just another Steelarm 'fact'?
Your being a hypocrite by whining in silly posts like the one before about the "hardcore PvP crowd complaining all the time" when its you who makes these posts that really have no positive contribution to the thread. Like this one that I quoted, for example.
You mean the posts where you accused people who don't like your particulat playstyle of not having backbones, being wimps, and being carebears? Or the ones where you keep denying it even when it's quoted back to you?
Ignore my past posts, argue some more, flame me, make a useless post, repeat. Apparently thats all you know how to do instead of strike up an intelligble argument. You dont read my posts and acknowledge them, so your not worth the time repeating what Ive said a thousand times.
"Get a life" is a rather silly insult on an internet messageboard dedicated to talking about computer games, especially when it's a board dedicated to talking about MMORPGs, the biggest 'no-life' games around. It's especially silly when you're obviously spending more time posting here than I am. But use it again over and over, I'm sure you're convinced you're wounding me horribly, though you won't be able to take my stuff.
Congratulations, Pantastic! You just managed to flame and insult the ENTIRE MEMBERBASE OF MMORPG.COM AND MMOS. Youve reached new lows, some things even I couldnt have imagined possible.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Your real complaint is that I and others here don't ignore your past posts, we refuse to just pretend that you didn't insult everyone who doesn't like your preferred playstyle, accuse them of not having backbones, accuse them of being wimps, and all of the other stuff you posted. Yeah, sure, you offered 'explanations' that you didn't really mean it, that it was all just to try to motivate people or something, and that when you asked where people's backbones were you really, truly didn't mean to imply that they lacked backbones (hint: they're on the back, no need to ask in the future). But no one actually believes your excuses.
And I ripped apart what arguments I could find from you, though it's kind of hard to tell - you spend much more time whining that people responded to you as insultingly as you talked to them, or whining about how people are against PVP on this messageboard (though can't point to a single thread to back that up), or trying to backpedal and explain that you didn't really mean anything that you said before. Your argument really just seems to be something like 'you guys are all wimps for not liking the same game as me, why are you such wimps?', which is not exactly hard to refute. Or mock.
Oh horrors, I am undone! Woe is me, for pointing out that posting on messageboards and playing MMOs don't usually qualify as 'having a life', now no one will think I'm 'cool' anymore! If I was you, I'd be crying myself to sleep!
C
A question to Steelarm, Chessak and Pantastic, do you believe you are gonna convince anyone in anyrhing or do you just love bickering?
So what if it's carebear time, it came right after l33t skillz time!?
Neither has "won" anything.
There are PVP heavy games in development today.
Darkfall is one of them. I believe Tabula Rasa plans to be heavily PVP as well. Roma Victor just released, as did Dark and Light, both PVP centric.
Problem is: Nobody plays them.
EVE is one of the most hardcore PVP games on the market and has over 140,000 players now. And growing. Lineage II has over 1.2 million players and it's Open/FFA PVP as well.
So PVP isn't dead and it isn't as unpopular as people would like to believe. The problem has been that other than Pre-Trammel UO there haven't been very many well developed games that included FFA PVP in their makeup. EVE and L2 being the only ones that were 'good'. And L2's anime graphics and horrible xp grind kept it from being widely accepted in Europe and the US. EVE's smaller because, in general, Sci-Fi is a much smaller market than Fantasy. If you look at the Sci-Fi market it only ever consisted of about 400k players. EVE has around 1/3 of that market. On most polls I've seen only 14% of MMO Players respond that they are interested in science fiction. So that sounds about right since we know the MMO Market in general is about 7mil players or so, maybe 8 if we're generous... which puts the potential sci-fi market at about 700k or so. Eve having 140k of that potential 700k is pretty darn impressive considering the only other truely successful sci-fi MMO only has 110k, currently (SWG).
But FFA PVP is not as unpopular as people who dislike PVP would like to believe. When properly implemented it adds worlds to the excitement and fun of an MMORPG. Problem is that most companies don't take the time to do it right. CCP did... and it's paid off in spades.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
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It's better be hated for who you are, than loved for who you aren't.
