No matter how many McDonalds there are in the world, there will always be sit down family restaurants.
No matter how many Britney Spears and Backstreet Boys, there will always be small bands that nobody ever heard of.
No matter how many PVE players there will always be PVP players.
No matter how many WoW players there will always be Eve players.
As far as level 60 ganking level 10, that's WoW not Eve.
Everybody thinks Eve soooooo hardcooooore but it follows the rules of what a good PVP MMO should be.
A day 1 newbie should be able to do something useful against a year 3 vet. If you can't kill him then maybe jam him and escape. A day 1 newbie should be able to travel in packs and be able to contribute to the fight.
If ppl are able to loot you, loot needs to be easily craftable so people make their own gear.
I started pvping in Eve since my first week. Not 1 on 1 but I can travel in a gang and participate.
If someone wants to gank me I can escape from day 1.
If I lose my ship, equipment is cheap and easily available.
A ship in Eve is like buying arrows. Expendable, meant to be used and destroyed.
So no, the PVP does not hurt. It's refreshing, it makes your heart pound because you feel like you "lose" something but really you don't lose anything but money, so you can just grind more.
Originally posted by fizzle322 No matter how many McDonalds there are in the world, there will always be sit down family restaurants.
No matter how many Britney Spears and Backstreet Boys, there will always be small bands that nobody ever heard of.
No matter how many PVE players there will always be PVP players.
No matter how many WoW players there will always be Eve players.
As far as level 60 ganking level 10, that's WoW not Eve.
Everybody thinks Eve soooooo hardcooooore but it follows the rules of what a good PVP MMO should be.
A day 1 newbie should be able to do something useful against a year 3 vet. If you can't kill him then maybe jam him and escape. A day 1 newbie should be able to travel in packs and be able to contribute to the fight.
If ppl are able to loot you, loot needs to be easily craftable so people make their own gear.
I started pvping in Eve since my first week. Not 1 on 1 but I can travel in a gang and participate.
If someone wants to gank me I can escape from day 1.
If I lose my ship, equipment is cheap and easily available.
A ship in Eve is like buying arrows. Expendable, meant to be used and destroyed.
So no, the PVP does not hurt. It's refreshing, it makes your heart pound because you feel like you "lose" something but really you don't lose anything but money, so you can just grind more.
Eve = PVP done right
well, actually, no, you cant escape a trained pvp player on day 1, not even on day 10 if he really wants to get you. The big advantage of eve is the sec-rating, where you virtually wont be attacked in high-security space, just because concord's gonna blast the attacker to pieces...
I agree with the rest, though totally open PvP is just plain stupid, you only support ganking with it...
Guildwars might not be a real MMORPG, but it is a very hardcore PvP game. The high-end PvP demands a lot of skill, tactics, strategy, teamwork and it is becoming an e-sport. This is hardcore PvP. In my personal opinion.
Originally posted by shadoozo Well it seems us hardcore PVP lovers lost the war, it seems carebears have now won, all games being released currently are carebear, PVP in games no is a joke, "Oh we dont want to be killed and have our loot stolen cause i might cry" type players have now won the war.UO will never get a pre trammle server, shadowbane is extremly unplayable due to its bugs,interface etcHardcore PVP is lost, i use to count on darkfall but that seems like a lost cause, a game that was supposed to be released in 2003 still hasnt been released yet and we still dont have ALOT of updated info on that game, seems like a lost cause. WELP time to give in hardcore PVPers and join the carebears, RAID OR DIE!
Seems like you have been ganked by Care Bears, taste of your own medicine is always a good awake up call.
Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS) Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve
Originally posted by goneglockin Because that's who I was calling fanatics about like 3 posts ago- the permadeath people.
What exactly led you to believe that I was one of 'the permadeath people'?
Maybe you just missed the point. There's a stark difference between different levels of loss and flat out permadeath.
No, it's all just a big continuim of how many hours of development time go away if you die. There's no stark difference between losing 10 ships that took 40 hours of mining in EVE and losing a character that took 400 hours to get where he is; it's all just a matter of 'stuff that takes time in game vanishing'. Some people aren't interested in losing 1 hour of time when they die, more aren't interested in 4, even more aren't interested in losing 40, and even more lack interested in losing 400.
It's silly to pretend that the amount that you like is the magic number and that anyone who likes a higher amount is a 'fanatic'.
Originally posted by osc8r I have no idea why everyone is getting so attached to their items?
If items are so cheap that no one cares about them, does losing them really offer the challenge or excitement or whatever it is that you want from looting? If they're difficult/time consuming enough to get that people do care about them, why is it suprising that they don't want to lose them? I'm interested in real PVP, not grinding, so I personally will skip on a game like EVE where you spend longer grinding than fighting.
Originally posted by fizzle322 No matter how many McDonalds there are in the world, there will always be sit down family restaurants.
No matter how many Britney Spears and Backstreet Boys, there will always be small bands that nobody ever heard of.
No matter how many PVE players there will always be PVP players.
No matter how many WoW players there will always be Eve players.
As far as level 60 ganking level 10, that's WoW not Eve.
Everybody thinks Eve soooooo hardcooooore but it follows the rules of what a good PVP MMO should be.
A day 1 newbie should be able to do something useful against a year 3 vet. If you can't kill him then maybe jam him and escape. A day 1 newbie should be able to travel in packs and be able to contribute to the fight.
If ppl are able to loot you, loot needs to be easily craftable so people make their own gear.
I started pvping in Eve since my first week. Not 1 on 1 but I can travel in a gang and participate.
If someone wants to gank me I can escape from day 1.
If I lose my ship, equipment is cheap and easily available.
A ship in Eve is like buying arrows. Expendable, meant to be used and destroyed.
So no, the PVP does not hurt. It's refreshing, it makes your heart pound because you feel like you "lose" something but really you don't lose anything but money, so you can just grind more.
Eve = PVP done right
Your post even now still amuse the hell out of me, fizzle. Still think Eve-Online is the cure for everything eh? PvP done right, don't make me laugh. I'd like to see this magical book you are reading on the "Rules of PvP". Games like Counter-Strike are more akin to PvP, then Eve-Online will ever be.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Level grinds make more money because people spend more time leveling, and then get attached to their characters after countless hours invested into it. PvPers play a game till they're bored and quit, then if nothing else appeals to them they come back. If you make games though, you're more interested in the guy that sit on the computer for 12 hours a day leveling and farming for the leetest gear cause the cash flow is more steady.
PvP games have player created content, ultimatly player created content amounts to the secret behind the "PvP thrill", but no one's going to go out on a limb and test the theory with a game based around completly on player created content because if it fails they're out millions of dollars.
Nobody wins, carebears have the sick and twisted idea that killing the same mob 10,000 times and buying better items is fun, and PvPs can't be satisfied with even the most sophisticated AI. Maybe in 20 years or so the industry will evolve into a realm of true unlimited possibilities, but until then just play the closest option and stop making threads like this.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
What exactly led you to believe that I was one of 'the permadeath people'?
Maybe you just missed the point. There's a stark difference between different levels of loss and flat out permadeath.
No, it's all just a big continuim of how many hours of development time go away if you die. There's no stark difference between losing 10 ships that took 40 hours of mining in EVE and losing a character that took 400 hours to get where he is; ...
You're an idiot. Thankyou- that is all.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
I've only read some of the posts in this thread (too long), but I think PvP will always lose against PvE.
Let's face it, hardcore gamers only make up for a small percentage of "people that play games". The rest are casual gamers that either only like puzzle, trivial games or just play games a few hours a week at most. As a hardcore gamer, i love PvP. I love the competitiveness and the challenge of beating the other opponent, but once again, im just a small percentage. Casual games will almost always do better than hardcore games and you can use that argument the same way for PvE (casual) and PvP (hardcore) games. Casual gamers just need to become more of an avid gamer.
I've skimmed over most of this thread and seen a few valid points on all sides of the argument. But one thing that bugs me the most about non-PvPers trying to argue their point is using WoW-style ganking as an example of why open PvP is bad. In a TRUE open PvP game, such as old-school pre-EA UO, you won't HAVE level 60s ganking level 10s because there's no such thing as level differences that drastic, and there's no such thing as epic gear that takes hours and hours of farming/instancing to replace when it's looted from you. In games like old-school UO, and, from what I hear, EVE Online (never tried it for myself), a casual player who's put a couple hours d a day for one week into the game can become a force to be reckoned with in ANY PvP situation.
Personally I'm a fan of FFA PvP MMORPG's and hope they'll make a resurgence as I can't find any decent ones out today. I'm not a fan of ganking but I love the type of gaming environment those games create. People stick together because they need to watch each other's backs for fear of losing their equipment and money when someone kills them. Or, that same person who's been watching your back could turn around and kill you to take your stuff. My first exposure to MMORPG's was pre-EA (pre-Trammel) UO and the open PvP system it had made for a chaotic (in a good way) gaming environment where you couldn''t predict how other players' actions were going to affect your gaming experience. I do miss playing that type of environment and hope that I'll see a game that fills that void again.
There's nothing wrong with not liking PvP in an MMORPG and you'll never hear me use words like "carebear" because everyone is into their own thing, but if you're going to bash true, so-called "hardcore" open PvP games don't make references to games like WoW and the type of griefing/ganking that goes on there and in similar games, because those things simply DO NOT HAPPEN in TRUE PvP mmo's. They can't because like i said above, there is no such thing as epics, and there is no such thing as level 60s. They all use skill-based systems with no actual "levels" to speak of, and a player within a few days will be able to defend himself in almost any pvp situation that can arise.
Pointing out typos, spelling mistakes, or grammatical errors in my post won't change the fact that I raised a few good points here and copy/pasting my mistakes won't make you look more intelligent. It will only make it seem like you're avoiding the fact that what I said DID make sense.
Also, WoW is a poor example of what a good PvE game should be as well because once you reach max level all there is to do is run "endgame" instances so that you can get better gear for what? So that you can run those same instances again and not die as much in the process?
Like I said, there's nothing wrong with not liking FFA Open PvP games, but be sure you know what you're talking about when you open your mouth and start spouting off reasons as to why they suck. Be sure you know what a real FFA Open PvP game is, and how things go on there, and don't whine and complain about how losing your 19/29 twink gear to a 60 in full tier is a reason why FFA Open PvP is bad.
Originally posted by goneglockin Maybe you just missed the point.
No, I didn't miss the point at all. You said that I was a fanatic and that I would play a permadeath game, yet you have yet to explain why you think such things. To use your own words, I think you're an idiot who can't tell the difference between disagreeing with your calling people more 'hardcore' than you fanatics and wanting a permadeath MMORPG.
There's a stark difference between different levels of loss and flat out permadeath.
It's odd that someone who considers himself a non-idiot would write this, and quote a rebuttal of it without countering anything in the rebuttal. As I said, it's all just a big continuim of how many hours of development time go away if you die. There's no stark difference between losing 10 ships that took 40 hours of mining in EVE and losing a character that took 400 hours to get where he is. If you don't agree, rather than act like an idiot and shout 'you're an idiot', perhaps you should explain what this "stark difference" is.
Originally posted by hellionrogue There's nothing wrong with not liking PvP in an MMORPG and you'll never hear me use words like "carebear" because everyone is into their own thing, but if you're going to bash true, so-called "hardcore" open PvP games don't make references to games like WoW and the type of griefing/ganking that goes on there and in similar games, because those things simply DO NOT HAPPEN in TRUE PvP mmo's. They can't because like i said above, there is no such thing as epics, and there is no such thing as level 60s.
Maybe you "True PVP" guys should look past mindless nitpicking; stop obsessing that people use 'level 60 ganking level 10' or 'some guy in epics ganking someone in blues' as examples, and look to the idea behind it. You can go into silly nitpicks like 'this game doesn't use levels, you grind skills instead!' but it doesn't change the basic concept at all, so why even bother bringing it up? Just mentally swap 'epics' with 'more powerful gear' and 'level 60 versus level 10' with 'more skilled versus less skilled character' and engage in real discussion.
They all use skill-based systems with no actual "levels" to speak of, and a player within a few days will be able to defend himself in almost any pvp situation that can arise.
Does EVE qualify as a true PVP game? If so, then explain how a week-old, non-twinked character can defend himself against a gate camp, against a much stronger ship jumping him, or any of the other common gank situations in that game. I will consider 'stay entirely in high-sec space' a cop-out, since I don't really consider that 'defending yourself', and 'run away if someone else jumps into the system' is running, not self-defense.
Originally posted by shadoozo Well it seems us hardcore PVP lovers lost the war, it seems carebears have now won, all games being released currently are carebear, PVP in games no is a joke, "Oh we dont want to be killed and have our loot stolen cause i might cry" type players have now won the war.
UO will never get a pre trammle server, shadowbane is extremly unplayable due to its bugs,interface etc
Hardcore PVP is lost, i use to count on darkfall but that seems like a lost cause, a game that was supposed to be released in 2003 still hasnt been released yet and we still dont have ALOT of updated info on that game, seems like a lost cause.
WELP time to give in hardcore PVPers and join the carebears, RAID OR DIE!
Maybe this is why "you lost the war".
Did you ever think that people don't want to be insulted or degraded.
As more and more people discover the fun of online games they are going to seek out gameplay that is interesting to them. For many people (and call me crazy) they are going to want to sign on and enjoy themselves and not want to be called "carebear" or "loser" or any of the other colorful insults that are thrown their way.
Perhaps if PvP players were actually interested in PvP and not proving that they were men (who hangs their manhood on a video game? Seriously. And why do you think that hurling insults actually makes you tough?) then more players whould be interested in trying pvp games. But when they are trying to learn the game and get ganked by a group that then hurls insults on them.
Well, let's just say people get tired of that.
I'm sorry that the world is not as tough or bad ass as you want.
However.
my rant aside, I do agree that you hardcore pvp players SHOULD have a game or server that caters to your needs. The problem is that gaming companies keep trying to make games that cater to a large audience but fail to really cater to everyone properly. I don't really see why they can't make the same game and have "hardcore pvp servers" and "Consensual" pvp servers.
It is important to have such things. It is important to allow hardcore pvp'ers the ability to play in a way that they enjoy.
However, you gain no converts when you feel you are better than other people.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by SovrathI do agree that you hardcore pvp players SHOULD have a game or server that caters to your needs. The problem is that gaming companies keep trying to make games that cater to a large audience but fail to really cater to everyone properly. I don't really see why they can't make the same game and have "hardcore pvp servers" and "Consensual" pvp servers.
I agree with you.
However if you read this thread carefully, and others like it, you will find that the "hardcore PVPers" (as they call themselves) are not satisfied with a server "for them" and other servers for "everyone else." They want a game that is open PVP on all servers, all the time. The reason for this is simple: without carebears who are forced to live in an open PVP environment there is no one to gank. These people argue for "consequences to PVP" but what they want is not consequences for them, such as being penalized for murder by being thrown in jail or ostracized from the local NPC town, but consequences for their victims, such as being able to swipe some loot each time the PKer wins the fight.
If "a PVP server" was sufficient, after all -- there are tons of games that already do that, and the original topic, the "grim future for PVP hardcore players", would be a moot point. In fact the "PVP hardcore players" complaining that "the carebears have won" are complaining specifically because there are now non-PVP servers or environments in most games, which means the carebears can avoid any and all ganking situations if they so wish.
So while I agree with your assessment (that there should be a place and games should make open PVP servers for those who want it), clearly the people complaining that "the carebears have won" are not satisfied with that, because such situations already exist, and the "hardcore PVPers" are complaining about just that.
Originally posted by hellionrogue There's nothing wrong with not liking PvP in an MMORPG and you'll never hear me use words like "carebear" because everyone is into their own thing, but if you're going to bash true, so-called "hardcore" open PvP games don't make references to games like WoW and the type of griefing/ganking that goes on there and in similar games, because those things simply DO NOT HAPPEN in TRUE PvP mmo's. They can't because like i said above, there is no such thing as epics, and there is no such thing as level 60s.
Maybe you "True PVP" guys should look past mindless nitpicking; stop obsessing that people use 'level 60 ganking level 10' or 'some guy in epics ganking someone in blues' as examples, and look to the idea behind it. You can go into silly nitpicks like 'this game doesn't use levels, you grind skills instead!' but it doesn't change the basic concept at all, so why even bother bringing it up? Just mentally swap 'epics' with 'more powerful gear' and 'level 60 versus level 10' with 'more skilled versus less skilled character' and engage in real discussion.
First of all, if you paid more attention to what I said you'd see theres a difference. It doesn't take millions of gold/platinum/in-game currency and 6 months of playing to level a character in the type of game I described. Yes, there will be grinding, but I'm talking about the difference between spending a couple days grinding and spending half a year grinding. THAT is what makes it different, and what makes your argument about that null and void. Spending 2-3 days to a week and equipping him with relatively-easy-to-obtain gear is VERY different from spending months levelling a character to 60 and equipping him with epics that you either had to run through 5 hour dungeons for or spend all your in-game currency on.
They all use skill-based systems with no actual "levels" to speak of, and a player within a few days will be able to defend himself in almost any pvp situation that can arise.
Does EVE qualify as a true PVP game? If so, then explain how a week-old, non-twinked character can defend himself against a gate camp, against a much stronger ship jumping him, or any of the other common gank situations in that game. I will consider 'stay entirely in high-sec space' a cop-out, since I don't really consider that 'defending yourself', and 'run away if someone else jumps into the system' is running, not self-defense.
If you read my post above you'll see I mentioned I have not yet played EVE and can't comment on that. If you can defend yourself with a week-old, non-twinked ship, though, then that is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. That is what a PVP game should be. In games like old UO a character less than a week old CAN defend himself against "twinked" gankers, because there IS no twink gear. The battle system DOES NOT DEPEND on gear, and neither does it depend on you playing a character who you've invested more time into than the next guy. ALL GEAR in the game is easy to obtain because it was relatively cheap and most of it was player crafted. There were no rare epic drops, there were no high level enchants, and there WERE NO TWINKS. There was NO SUCH THING. Comprehend that? There was NOTHING about how rare or expensive your gear was that made all that much of a difference, and short of being outnumbered or fighting someone using exploits there was NO SUCH THING as an unfair fight, because by the time you were high enough in skills to venture far enough away from the towns (which, by the way, DIDN'T TAKE LONG) You were already high enough and well-equipped enough to stand a chance against nearly anyone.
You are a perfect example of what I meant when I said know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
Summary:
Nearly ALL GEAR was player-crafted and easy to obtain, meaning NO TWINK GEAR
2-3 weeks grinding AT MOST before your stats are maxed
NO rare drop gear, and unless the lower level players absolutely had NO CLUE what they were doing there is NO WAY POSSIBLE for a single player to become powerful enough to take on an entire party of lowbies.
Originally posted by hellionrogue You are a perfect example of what I meant when I said know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
You are a perfect example of why that 'hardcore' PVPers like yourself fail to convince other people that your game style is worth playing; you're just plain jackasses.
2-3 weeks grinding AT MOST before your stats are maxed
So what you're saying is that you want games with essentially no statistic-based character development over time, where you get done with making your character any stronger at all in under a month? While such a thing is possible, it isn't much like most MMORPGs on the market; part of the rason 'hardcores' like you are losing to the 'carebears' is that the carebears want advancement over more than 1 month. It also means that EVE most definately doesn't qualify as a real open PVP game by your standards, since it would take longer than the game has existed to max out a character, and takes months just to get the higher combat skills, and the best crafter items take longer than a month to get to.
To other people, did original UO even have this short of a skillup? I got the impression that maxing all of your stats would take a long time, since people bothered making bots to get the grinding out of the way. It doesn't seem like there's much to the game other than PVP if you finish all PVE advancement in under a month and there's no crafting aside from quick stuff that you can master in under a month.
Originally posted by Gameloading I really don't understand how those so called "hardcore" pvpers first need all kinds of consequences and item loss before they even consider to start pvp. I completely fail to understand what is so fun about losing your items to a person much higher level/must stronger then myself, because fair fights are rare. very rare. don't get me wrong, I love pvp. and if a game doesn't have pvp, then chances are I won't stick around for long. but for me, its the pvp itself that I enjoy, not the consequences, item loss or even reward.
There is an inherent excitement with having such dire consequences to your actions. While I wholeheartedly enjoy PVE ramblings, I will never forget my time in UO sans trammel. The excitement and adrenaline is truly addicting and thrilling. Losing all your stuff for making a false move makes the game incredibly compelling.
All of this having been said, I hate idiots who whine about carebears.
Originally posted by Pantastic To other people, did original UO even have this short of a skillup?
No way, unless you exploited. Through natural fighting and play, it would take you at least a few months to have a maxed template character unless you were unemployed.
Originally posted by Gameloading I really don't understand how those so called "hardcore" pvpers first need all kinds of consequences and item loss before they even consider to start pvp. I completely fail to understand what is so fun about losing your items to a person much higher level/must stronger then myself, because fair fights are rare. very rare. don't get me wrong, I love pvp. and if a game doesn't have pvp, then chances are I won't stick around for long. but for me, its the pvp itself that I enjoy, not the consequences, item loss or even reward.
You just don't get it. In Ultima Online it didnt really matter that much if you were looted. You just had to re-equip and it didnt cost you an arm and a leg to do so. Just needed to find a Blacksmith or vendor to help you out. The economy was very friendly to new players and you didnt have to spend hours on end to get UBER loot which unbalances everything. Sure they had some power swords or vanq axes, but the edge they gave in PVP was not that much, plus they were easy to obtain from player run shops/vendors. Again, they didnt cost a fortune.
This type of economy and PVP style was much more balanced. You lost time when you had to re-equip but compared with the wasted hours you spend in WOW and EQ trying to get Uber loot, its nothing !!
Plus the PVP was based more on your skill and numbers than on what gear you possessed. I much prefer that. I'm totally turned off now when the main way to compete is your gear. SWG wasnt too bad either, there werent any UBER items. More powerful weapons were pretty obtainable.
The consequences from dying is what made the game fun and challenging. No game I have played since has been able to replicate the PVP encounters in UO.
Shadowbane and the first 9 months after it's launch was a fun open PvP experience. Despite the bugs and everyone having an opinon on how to make the game better. You had the option to build a character to whatever specs fit your play style most and join up with folks to have actual wars. It did seem epic at the time. Now you just wish stuff like that could happen on the nicer looking generation of games. Or in settings like WarCrafts. Just didn't evolve that way. I do feel tho' that too many posters here have an ill number in mind of just how many MMO players PvP. Sure your average pre teen player and lonely housewife majority may not partake for whatever emotional claim they have, but the PvP servers in most games are always generally hopping and it's not uncommon to see the nonPvP games getting a lot of activity with their PvP options like the City of games. So there's no war won or lost yet. There's existing formulas that work out there and a market for them. I mean you have one of the original PvP games coming out MMO-style soon. I bet Warhammer is going to have a great system, but it may not be hardcore, but I bet it's fun. In the end that's all that matters to me. I feel there's a large majority of players now who think 500 + member raids to kill some insane sized creature that's not much of a challenge other than chipping away at some crazy life point pool game play is getting kind of old. I mean come on, group vs group pvp has to be more appealing than some static raid event.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Comments
Oh come on, NO sucessful pvp has ever had perm death. And, while it might work for some, ALL DEVELOPERS AGREE IT IS A BAD IDEA.
Full looting thought sounds kinda cool. DF is the future but if they wait too long, their sub-par graphics might fall even further behind.
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No matter how many McDonalds there are in the world, there will always be sit down family restaurants.
No matter how many Britney Spears and Backstreet Boys, there will always be small bands that nobody ever heard of.
No matter how many PVE players there will always be PVP players.
No matter how many WoW players there will always be Eve players.
As far as level 60 ganking level 10, that's WoW not Eve.
Everybody thinks Eve soooooo hardcooooore but it follows the rules of what a good PVP MMO should be.
A day 1 newbie should be able to do something useful against a year 3
vet. If you can't kill him then maybe jam him and escape. A day 1
newbie should be able to travel in packs and be able to contribute to
the fight.
If ppl are able to loot you, loot needs to be easily craftable so people make their own gear.
I started pvping in Eve since my first week. Not 1 on 1 but I can travel in a gang and participate.
If someone wants to gank me I can escape from day 1.
If I lose my ship, equipment is cheap and easily available.
A ship in Eve is like buying arrows. Expendable, meant to be used and destroyed.
So no, the PVP does not hurt. It's refreshing, it makes your heart pound because you feel like you "lose" something but really you don't lose anything but money, so you can just grind more.
Eve = PVP done right
pvp in gaming has always been kinda grim...half the mmo scene doesnt like pvp at all...always kinda been like that
and hardcore penalties for dying isnt for everyone....
I agree with the rest, though totally open PvP is just plain stupid, you only support ganking with it...
Meridion
Seems like you have been ganked by Care Bears, taste of your own medicine is always a good awake up call.
Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS)
Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve
Darkfall the only real game (if it comes out)
What exactly led you to believe that I was one of 'the permadeath people'?
No, it's all just a big continuim of how many hours of development time go away if you die. There's no stark difference between losing 10 ships that took 40 hours of mining in EVE and losing a character that took 400 hours to get where he is; it's all just a matter of 'stuff that takes time in game vanishing'. Some people aren't interested in losing 1 hour of time when they die, more aren't interested in 4, even more aren't interested in losing 40, and even more lack interested in losing 400.
It's silly to pretend that the amount that you like is the magic number and that anyone who likes a higher amount is a 'fanatic'.
If items are so cheap that no one cares about them, does losing them really offer the challenge or excitement or whatever it is that you want from looting? If they're difficult/time consuming enough to get that people do care about them, why is it suprising that they don't want to lose them? I'm interested in real PVP, not grinding, so I personally will skip on a game like EVE where you spend longer grinding than fighting.
C
PvP done right, don't make me laugh. I'd like to see this magical book you are reading on the "Rules of PvP". Games like Counter-Strike are more akin to PvP, then Eve-Online will ever be.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Yay, another thread like this...
Level grinds make more money because people spend more time leveling, and then get attached to their characters after countless hours invested into it. PvPers play a game till they're bored and quit, then if nothing else appeals to them they come back. If you make games though, you're more interested in the guy that sit on the computer for 12 hours a day leveling and farming for the leetest gear cause the cash flow is more steady.
PvP games have player created content, ultimatly player created content amounts to the secret behind the "PvP thrill", but no one's going to go out on a limb and test the theory with a game based around completly on player created content because if it fails they're out millions of dollars.
Nobody wins, carebears have the sick and twisted idea that killing the same mob 10,000 times and buying better items is fun, and PvPs can't be satisfied with even the most sophisticated AI. Maybe in 20 years or so the industry will evolve into a realm of true unlimited possibilities, but until then just play the closest option and stop making threads like this.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
Let's face it, hardcore gamers only make up for a small percentage of "people that play games". The rest are casual gamers that either only like puzzle, trivial games or just play games a few hours a week at most. As a hardcore gamer, i love PvP. I love the competitiveness and the challenge of beating the other opponent, but once again, im just a small percentage. Casual games will almost always do better than hardcore games and you can use that argument the same way for PvE (casual) and PvP (hardcore) games. Casual gamers just need to become more of an avid gamer.
I've skimmed over most of this thread and seen a few valid points on all sides of the argument. But one thing that bugs me the most about non-PvPers trying to argue their point is using WoW-style ganking as an example of why open PvP is bad. In a TRUE open PvP game, such as old-school pre-EA UO, you won't HAVE level 60s ganking level 10s because there's no such thing as level differences that drastic, and there's no such thing as epic gear that takes hours and hours of farming/instancing to replace when it's looted from you. In games like old-school UO, and, from what I hear, EVE Online (never tried it for myself), a casual player who's put a couple hours d a day for one week into the game can become a force to be reckoned with in ANY PvP situation.
Personally I'm a fan of FFA PvP MMORPG's and hope they'll make a resurgence as I can't find any decent ones out today. I'm not a fan of ganking but I love the type of gaming environment those games create. People stick together because they need to watch each other's backs for fear of losing their equipment and money when someone kills them. Or, that same person who's been watching your back could turn around and kill you to take your stuff. My first exposure to MMORPG's was pre-EA (pre-Trammel) UO and the open PvP system it had made for a chaotic (in a good way) gaming environment where you couldn''t predict how other players' actions were going to affect your gaming experience. I do miss playing that type of environment and hope that I'll see a game that fills that void again.
There's nothing wrong with not liking PvP in an MMORPG and you'll never hear me use words like "carebear" because everyone is into their own thing, but if you're going to bash true, so-called "hardcore" open PvP games don't make references to games like WoW and the type of griefing/ganking that goes on there and in similar games, because those things simply DO NOT HAPPEN in TRUE PvP mmo's. They can't because like i said above, there is no such thing as epics, and there is no such thing as level 60s. They all use skill-based systems with no actual "levels" to speak of, and a player within a few days will be able to defend himself in almost any pvp situation that can arise.
Pointing out typos, spelling mistakes, or grammatical errors in my post won't change the fact that I raised a few good points here and copy/pasting my mistakes won't make you look more intelligent. It will only make it seem like you're avoiding the fact that what I said DID make sense.
Also, WoW is a poor example of what a good PvE game should be as well because once you reach max level all there is to do is run "endgame" instances so that you can get better gear for what? So that you can run those same instances again and not die as much in the process?
Like I said, there's nothing wrong with not liking FFA Open PvP games, but be sure you know what you're talking about when you open your mouth and start spouting off reasons as to why they suck. Be sure you know what a real FFA Open PvP game is, and how things go on there, and don't whine and complain about how losing your 19/29 twink gear to a 60 in full tier is a reason why FFA Open PvP is bad.
No, I didn't miss the point at all. You said that I was a fanatic and that I would play a permadeath game, yet you have yet to explain why you think such things. To use your own words, I think you're an idiot who can't tell the difference between disagreeing with your calling people more 'hardcore' than you fanatics and wanting a permadeath MMORPG.
It's odd that someone who considers himself a non-idiot would write this, and quote a rebuttal of it without countering anything in the rebuttal. As I said, it's all just a big continuim of how many hours of development time go away if you die. There's no stark difference between losing 10 ships that took 40 hours of mining in EVE and losing a character that took 400 hours to get where he is. If you don't agree, rather than act like an idiot and shout 'you're an idiot', perhaps you should explain what this "stark difference" is.
Maybe you "True PVP" guys should look past mindless nitpicking; stop obsessing that people use 'level 60 ganking level 10' or 'some guy in epics ganking someone in blues' as examples, and look to the idea behind it. You can go into silly nitpicks like 'this game doesn't use levels, you grind skills instead!' but it doesn't change the basic concept at all, so why even bother bringing it up? Just mentally swap 'epics' with 'more powerful gear' and 'level 60 versus level 10' with 'more skilled versus less skilled character' and engage in real discussion.
Does EVE qualify as a true PVP game? If so, then explain how a week-old, non-twinked character can defend himself against a gate camp, against a much stronger ship jumping him, or any of the other common gank situations in that game. I will consider 'stay entirely in high-sec space' a cop-out, since I don't really consider that 'defending yourself', and 'run away if someone else jumps into the system' is running, not self-defense.
Maybe this is why "you lost the war".
Did you ever think that people don't want to be insulted or degraded.
As more and more people discover the fun of online games they are going to seek out gameplay that is interesting to them. For many people (and call me crazy) they are going to want to sign on and enjoy themselves and not want to be called "carebear" or "loser" or any of the other colorful insults that are thrown their way.
Perhaps if PvP players were actually interested in PvP and not proving that they were men (who hangs their manhood on a video game? Seriously. And why do you think that hurling insults actually makes you tough?) then more players whould be interested in trying pvp games. But when they are trying to learn the game and get ganked by a group that then hurls insults on them.
Well, let's just say people get tired of that.
I'm sorry that the world is not as tough or bad ass as you want.
However.
my rant aside, I do agree that you hardcore pvp players SHOULD have a game or server that caters to your needs. The problem is that gaming companies keep trying to make games that cater to a large audience but fail to really cater to everyone properly. I don't really see why they can't make the same game and have "hardcore pvp servers" and "Consensual" pvp servers.
It is important to have such things. It is important to allow hardcore pvp'ers the ability to play in a way that they enjoy.
However, you gain no converts when you feel you are better than other people.
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Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
However if you read this thread carefully, and others like it, you will find that the "hardcore PVPers" (as they call themselves) are not satisfied with a server "for them" and other servers for "everyone else." They want a game that is open PVP on all servers, all the time. The reason for this is simple: without carebears who are forced to live in an open PVP environment there is no one to gank. These people argue for "consequences to PVP" but what they want is not consequences for them, such as being penalized for murder by being thrown in jail or ostracized from the local NPC town, but consequences for their victims, such as being able to swipe some loot each time the PKer wins the fight.
If "a PVP server" was sufficient, after all -- there are tons of games that already do that, and the original topic, the "grim future for PVP hardcore players", would be a moot point. In fact the "PVP hardcore players" complaining that "the carebears have won" are complaining specifically because there are now non-PVP servers or environments in most games, which means the carebears can avoid any and all ganking situations if they so wish.
So while I agree with your assessment (that there should be a place and games should make open PVP servers for those who want it), clearly the people complaining that "the carebears have won" are not satisfied with that, because such situations already exist, and the "hardcore PVPers" are complaining about just that.
C
You are a perfect example of why that 'hardcore' PVPers like yourself fail to convince other people that your game style is worth playing; you're just plain jackasses.
So what you're saying is that you want games with essentially no statistic-based character development over time, where you get done with making your character any stronger at all in under a month? While such a thing is possible, it isn't much like most MMORPGs on the market; part of the rason 'hardcores' like you are losing to the 'carebears' is that the carebears want advancement over more than 1 month. It also means that EVE most definately doesn't qualify as a real open PVP game by your standards, since it would take longer than the game has existed to max out a character, and takes months just to get the higher combat skills, and the best crafter items take longer than a month to get to.
To other people, did original UO even have this short of a skillup? I got the impression that maxing all of your stats would take a long time, since people bothered making bots to get the grinding out of the way. It doesn't seem like there's much to the game other than PVP if you finish all PVE advancement in under a month and there's no crafting aside from quick stuff that you can master in under a month.
There is an inherent excitement with having such dire consequences to your actions. While I wholeheartedly enjoy PVE ramblings, I will never forget my time in UO sans trammel. The excitement and adrenaline is truly addicting and thrilling. Losing all your stuff for making a false move makes the game incredibly compelling.
All of this having been said, I hate idiots who whine about carebears.
You just don't get it. In Ultima Online it didnt really matter that much if you were looted. You just had to re-equip and it didnt cost you an arm and a leg to do so. Just needed to find a Blacksmith or vendor to help you out. The economy was very friendly to new players and you didnt have to spend hours on end to get UBER loot which unbalances everything. Sure they had some power swords or vanq axes, but the edge they gave in PVP was not that much, plus they were easy to obtain from player run shops/vendors. Again, they didnt cost a fortune.
This type of economy and PVP style was much more balanced. You lost time when you had to re-equip but compared with the wasted hours you spend in WOW and EQ trying to get Uber loot, its nothing !!
Plus the PVP was based more on your skill and numbers than on what gear you possessed. I much prefer that. I'm totally turned off now when the main way to compete is your gear. SWG wasnt too bad either, there werent any UBER items. More powerful weapons were pretty obtainable.
The consequences from dying is what made the game fun and challenging. No game I have played since has been able to replicate the PVP encounters in UO.
Looks like I may never play another MMORPG again.
I do feel tho' that too many posters here have an ill number in mind of just how many MMO players PvP. Sure your average pre teen player and lonely housewife majority may not partake for whatever emotional claim they have, but the PvP servers in most games are always generally hopping and it's not uncommon to see the nonPvP games getting a lot of activity with their PvP options like the City of games.
So there's no war won or lost yet. There's existing formulas that work out there and a market for them.
I mean you have one of the original PvP games coming out MMO-style soon. I bet Warhammer is going to have a great system, but it may not be hardcore, but I bet it's fun. In the end that's all that matters to me.
I feel there's a large majority of players now who think 500 + member raids to kill some insane sized creature that's not much of a challenge other than chipping away at some crazy life point pool game play is getting kind of old.
I mean come on, group vs group pvp has to be more appealing than some static raid event.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.