Originally posted by Kyoruto How can hours of playing against bots be fun? Bots right now are at an ok level, but in all honesty its just a cut and dry routine.
That's why I feel that competition should be a part of most games. Not for greafing, but to keep the feeling of there is still something out there in their minds.
I do not like to play sport games, fighting games ,FPS games or any other competition games and it is not because I have not tried them, I did and I just do not like them. I do not enjoy playing for hours killing a real player, you like competition great but I do not, there is nothing to understand. So if you do not like playing against Bots, why are you playing MMORPG, you should play FPS games instead.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
Originally posted by Kyoruto How can hours of playing against bots be fun?
How can hours of being ganked and sent rude tells in leetspeak be fun?
I can't fathom that, but some people seem to love it. Unlike you, though, just because something isn't fun for me, doesn't mean that I assume it isn't fun for anyone else. I have no problem with some games having some or even exclusively PVP... just don't expect me (or anyone like me) to play them.
The original post said, "The carebears lost something" -- namely, the "excitement" of PVP. Many of us have said, "We didn't want that in the first place." And so, as a result, we have lost nothing.
You folks, on the other hands, if you really like the excitement of PVP, have also lost nothing. The only way you've lost anything is if you wanted "easy targets" via the carebears. The only reason to argue that carebears should be forced to PVP is so you can have easy prey. There is no other conceivable reason why anyone would want people who have no interest in PVP and probably little skill at it, to be forced into it.
The thing is, the motivation here is transparently obvious. You're not fooling anyone by saying "You'll have more fun if you play my way." We know that's simply not true, because we know what is fun for us, and being your target isn't fun for us. It's fun for YOU... and that's what has been lost. The easy targets.
You are the ones who have lost something... you are the ones unhappy about the situation. The carebears of the world are, for the most part, thrilled not to have to deal with you people. I mean can you blame us? Just look at the smug and overbearing attitude of the hardcore PVP people on threads like this. To paraphrase you, "How can hours of being subjected to these rude and obnxious people be any fun?"
The answer for most of us carebears is, "It isn't" -- and so we haven't lost anything at all. We've GAINED... gained the ability to not deal with you people, and be able to enjoy playing the game that WE PAY FOR, in our own way.
Originally posted by FreddyNoNose Originally posted by Kyoruto How can hours of playing against bots be fun?
It doesn't matter. You are not owed any explanation as to why people like what they want. Besides, you are truly not intested in the why for better understanding and appreciating the differences, but rather to get people to change their minds so that your style can be more popular. Which just boils down to you being manipulative.
Sure.. Misses pissy. Assume all you want. But the fact is that someone asks a legitimate question and you get all on your high horse doesn't mean you know what I want to know. You don't need to be rude for no reason what so ever and if you want to assume at least put some logic in it. Then again you're probably a closet racist if you make such generalizations. See, isn't being an ass fun?
Siehst du mich Erkennst du mich Ganz tief in meinem Herz ist noch ein Platz f?r dich Ich suche dich Ich sehne mich nach dem was ich geliebt hab doch ich find es nicht
Originally posted by Chessack Originally posted by Kyoruto How can hours of playing against bots be fun?
How can hours of being ganked and sent rude tells in leetspeak be fun?
I can't fathom that, but some people seem to love it. Unlike you, though, just because something isn't fun for me, doesn't mean that I assume it isn't fun for anyone else. I have no problem with some games having some or even exclusively PVP... just don't expect me (or anyone like me) to play them.
The original post said, "The carebears lost something" -- namely, the "excitement" of PVP. Many of us have said, "We didn't want that in the first place." And so, as a result, we have lost nothing.
You folks, on the other hands, if you really like the excitement of PVP, have also lost nothing. The only way you've lost anything is if you wanted "easy targets" via the carebears. The only reason to argue that carebears should be forced to PVP is so you can have easy prey. There is no other conceivable reason why anyone would want people who have no interest in PVP and probably little skill at it, to be forced into it.
The thing is, the motivation here is transparently obvious. You're not fooling anyone by saying "You'll have more fun if you play my way." We know that's simply not true, because we know what is fun for us, and being your target isn't fun for us. It's fun for YOU... and that's what has been lost. The easy targets.
You are the ones who have lost something... you are the ones unhappy about the situation. The carebears of the world are, for the most part, thrilled not to have to deal with you people. I mean can you blame us? Just look at the smug and overbearing attitude of the hardcore PVP people on threads like this. To paraphrase you, "How can hours of being subjected to these rude and obnxious people be any fun?"
The answer for most of us carebears is, "It isn't" -- and so we haven't lost anything at all. We've GAINED... gained the ability to not deal with you people, and be able to enjoy playing the game that WE PAY FOR, in our own way.
C
I have to say that this post sums up everything, I think we can close all thread about this and move to the next arguement. Lets go back to something we have not heard in awhile.
like Is EvE really a good game. or Is GW really an MMORPG.....or you guys can pick whatever you want.
Thank you Chessack, I could not say better.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
Originally posted by Chessack Originally posted by Kyoruto How can hours of playing against bots be fun?
How can hours of being ganked and sent rude tells in leetspeak be fun?
I can't fathom that, but some people seem to love it. Unlike you, though, just because something isn't fun for me, doesn't mean that I assume it isn't fun for anyone else. I have no problem with some games having some or even exclusively PVP... just don't expect me (or anyone like me) to play them.
The original post said, "The carebears lost something" -- namely, the "excitement" of PVP. Many of us have said, "We didn't want that in the first place." And so, as a result, we have lost nothing.
You folks, on the other hands, if you really like the excitement of PVP, have also lost nothing. The only way you've lost anything is if you wanted "easy targets" via the carebears. The only reason to argue that carebears should be forced to PVP is so you can have easy prey. There is no other conceivable reason why anyone would want people who have no interest in PVP and probably little skill at it, to be forced into it.
The thing is, the motivation here is transparently obvious. You're not fooling anyone by saying "You'll have more fun if you play my way." We know that's simply not true, because we know what is fun for us, and being your target isn't fun for us. It's fun for YOU... and that's what has been lost. The easy targets.
You are the ones who have lost something... you are the ones unhappy about the situation. The carebears of the world are, for the most part, thrilled not to have to deal with you people. I mean can you blame us? Just look at the smug and overbearing attitude of the hardcore PVP people on threads like this. To paraphrase you, "How can hours of being subjected to these rude and obnxious people be any fun?"
The answer for most of us carebears is, "It isn't" -- and so we haven't lost anything at all. We've GAINED... gained the ability to not deal with you people, and be able to enjoy playing the game that WE PAY FOR, in our own way.
C
Well, I was talking about challenge is all. You said you play against bots in EE II. Which is fine, but I want to know doesn't it get boring. I don't expect people to do anything. I just want to know what makes the bots better then humans for you. I'm not talking about being ganked cause in EE II the only way that happens if you don't even fight back. Actually that happens in any RTS. I like playing with other people. That's where I get my fun. I'm sorry that you must of had a bad experience with playing with other people, but for the most part for me anyway. Everyone I played against was very nice and complemented on my strategy. I wasn't referring to FFA PvP with full loot like people assume. Cause personally I don't want to lose all my loot. Doesn't mean the concept isn't interesting to me either. I haven't claimed anything about carebares or losing my fun. I just read your recent statement of how much you liked to play against bots. Maybe its cause of my short attention span, but I can't always do that. I need a change of pace from time to time. So thanks for assuming shit I didn't even insinuate. I ask you for a simple answer and you attack my character. I didn't say that you'd have more fun if you play my way. I said I think the human aspect is vital too. Which obviously YOU don't. So that should bring more of the question why play online then? Also I see you don't actually quote all of my post which makes it more assumptions on your part. Instead of listing what I said I liked and didn't force on you. So please you've already made yourself and me look like an ass.
And on GLs comment- See that's what I was looking for. And I got to ask, What makes all that fun? Would you say the unknown and being awestruck? Personally I'd love it if games did more of that too. Where you're completely like "OH my!" I really like the idea of the unknown and it's human nature to be fascinated by it.
Siehst du mich Erkennst du mich Ganz tief in meinem Herz ist noch ein Platz f?r dich Ich suche dich Ich sehne mich nach dem was ich geliebt hab doch ich find es nicht
I have a couple of awards to give out, direct from flame warriors. I have slightly edited the text, but meh.
Chessak, I hereby award you the rank of
PHILOSOPHER
Philosopher is quite knowledgeable on a variety of subjects. Somewhat humorless and aloof, he is also slow to anger, and when he deigns to join in the fray he is considerate of other opinions. His fighting tactics are direct and uncomplicated - he smothers the opposition with his ponderous and lengthy cogitations.
=================================== Next, for several people, I award the rank of
FERROUS CRANUS
Ferrous Cranus is utterly impervious to reason, persuasion and new ideas, and when engaged in battle he will not yield an inch in his position regardless of its hopelessness. Though his thrusts are decisively repulsed, his arguments crushed in every detail and his defenses demolished beyond repair he will remount the same attack again and again with only the slightest variation in tactics. Sometimes out of pure frustration Philosopher will try to explain to him the failed logistics of his situation, or Therapist will attempt to penetrate the psychological origins of his obduracy, but, ever unfathomable, Ferrous Cranus cannot be moved. ====================================
That will be all, thank you.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
I can tell you that buffbots in SWG, portal bots in AC, macro miners in EVE, and forced TS/Vent use to join groups or guilds weren't created by this "whining carebear conspiracy." They were created by PvPers, and PvP guilds, to succeed in PvP against those who don't use or do such things.
Its all well and good to talk about roleplay, or crafting, or creating a virtual community. Its all talk though, because each and every time I have seen PvPers and PvP guilds in practice, roleplay takes a backseat to pwning. Crafting, buffing, and out of combat activities become routinized, alted, and automated. The only community that matters are the ones who share the TS/Vent server, which are also the ones that the professionalized guilds bring from their last game.
I keep hearing that in games without bigtime PvP, the game takes a backseat to the notion that "everyone can win." Yet in every game I have been in with bigtime PvP, the game takes a backseat to the needs of PvP. Everyone starts to look less like characters, and more like industrial products grinding out the same optimized FOTM PvP templates, or gearing with the same, optimized gear from crafting alts; and playing with the same people we drag from game to game through our guilds. If pre-combat preparations can be macro-automated, and AFKd, then they will be, with no apologies to the ones who actually play support roles. I can say for certain that it happens, because I haven't seen a PvP game yet where it doesn't happen.
In short, let me just say that while I love PvP, I hate the sort of things PvPers and PvP guilds have done to the games in the name of increased effectiveness in PvP. Its much too clinical and seriously administered for it to resemble "fun," as I used to know it.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Steelarm011 How is calling someone a carebear insulting them? Thats the term, get over it. Its just a name, and there is nothing derogatory about it.... If its THAT bad.....get off the ground, wipe the tears from your eyes, and say "Alright! thats how we're branded! I guess I'll have to put up with it." It gonna be okay Pany, really, its gonna be okay
If it's such an inoffensive name, why don't you take it for yourself? Call you and people who like your playstyle carebears, since there's nothing offensive about it. Face it, unless someone is a preteen girl, comparing them or their preferred gaming style to a stuffed animal associated with rainbows and such is insulting. You wouldn't take 'carebear' as a term for yourself, because you actually know that they're not intended as a compliment or simple label. Also, you're the only one who's been whining and crying, sobbing up a storm over how prejudiced people are against 'hardcore' PVPers, when what people are really prejudiced against is jackasses. What you said above is pretty much a textbook example of being a jackass, if you want people to take your ideas seriously and respond politely to you then you need not to say things like that.
However, calling a hardcore PvP'r a ganker is wrong and an insult for a number of reasons:
Thats the term, get over it. Its just a name, and there is nothing derogatory about it. If its THAT bad.....get off the ground, wipe the tears from your eyes, and say "Alright! thats how we're branded! I guess I'll have to put up with it." It gonna be okay Steely, really, its gonna be okay.
Originally posted by Kyoruto Well, I was talking about challenge is all. You said you play against bots in EE II. Which is fine, but I want to know doesn't it get boring. I don't expect people to do anything. I just want to know what makes the bots better then humans for you. I'm not talking about being ganked cause in EE II the only way that happens if you don't even fight back. Actually that happens in any RTS.
This seems like an honest question, so I will answer it. The answers are several fold.
First off, since EE II is a simple game I got off the bargain rack for $30, it's not something I plan to play for a thousand hours. You're right, eventually, playing against the bots gets boring. It happened in AoE eventually -- when I could beat a 3-on-1 situation on "hardest" (3 computers, allied, against me), at that point I realized there was nothing left to do... and I stopped playing. That took me about 6 months, so I judged the $45 I spent on the game well worth it. AoE II came out, and it had a whole new set of strategies and AI, and I did that for a while.
When my old "arcade friend" came to visit one weekend and we hooked up our laptops to play AoE, we did not play against each other. We teamed up vs. the bots. We cranked the difficulty and spotted the AI some material or something, and then had a fun time.
What makes playing the bots better than players? Two things affect this.
#1 - the AI is somewhat predictable, or can be made so by setting the conditions right. Now, absolute predictability is not, of course, of interest to me. But there are certain play styles to an RTS game, and I happen to like a slow-to-develop game where all sides build huge empires and then wage war at the end. I am not a huge fan of "rushes" where people build up stone age troops and go pound each other and the game ends in 20 minutes. To me that defeats the whole purpose of playing an RTS. And yet in PVP versions of these games, rushes are the ruler of the day, and people who build slowly (called "turtles") can't. It's not that I can't do rushes -- I tried them against the computer once I heard about how to do it. And it works, and I can beat the computer in 5 minutes... and it's boring. I prefer to build a civilization and do diplomacy and such, and that just doesn't happen in PVP in these games. The play style is not what I like, so I play the computer and (basically) force it to play the game the way I enjoy. For me, the building of the civilization is the most fun part... the war is the climax at the end, when I get to see if the civ I built, is as good as or better than what the computer could do. If I could find people to agree to play this way I might try it, but then there is issue #2 below...
#2 - I don't like beating other people. Most hardcore PVPers assume that those of us who shy away from it are afraid to lose, but that's simply not the case. Rather, I tend to feel bad for other people when I beat them -- especially if I beat them really badly. I played SW: Galactic Battlegrounds against 3 friends from another online game once and creamed them (I tend to be very good at RTS games). I felt awful about it for days afterwards. Rather than getting a "rush" from it I just don't enjoy it. It's not fun to lose, but I also don't enjoy beating them.
I like playing with other people. That's where I get my fun. I'm sorry that you must of had a bad experience with playing with other people, but for the most part for me anyway.
It's not got to do with "bad experiences" really... You like playing AGAINST other people. I like playing WITH them. I don't have to feel bad when I kick the computer's ass... it's the computer. When I kick a real person's ass, I end up feeling lousy about it. Sorry if you can't understand it but that's just how it is.
I haven't claimed anything about carebares or losing my fun.
The OP did, not you. I think I did say that I was referring to the OP.
I didn't say that you'd have more fun if you play my way. I said I think the human aspect is vital too. Which obviously YOU don't. So that should bring more of the question why play online then?
To play cooperatively WITH people rather than AGAINST them. It is possible to have a fun group experience without having to pound another person.
Sorry if you felt I took your comments out of context or assumed things you didn't say... but I was responding both to you, AND to the general tone of posts on this thread, all at once.
C
EDIT: to undo the freakin' italics that popped into the post for some reason. Stupid boards.
Originally posted by Kyoruto Well, I was talking about challenge is all. You said you play against bots in EE II. Which is fine, but I want to know doesn't it get boring. I don't expect people to do anything. I just want to know what makes the bots better then humans for you. I'm not talking about being ganked cause in EE II the only way that happens if you don't even fight back. Actually that happens in any RTS. This seems like an honest question, so I will answer it. The answers are several fold.First off, since EE II is a simple game I got off the bargain rack for $30, it's not something I plan to play for a thousand hours. You're right, eventually, playing against the bots gets boring. It happened in AoE eventually -- when I could beat a 3-on-1 situation on "hardest" (3 computers, allied, against me), at that point I realized there was nothing left to do... and I stopped playing. That took me about 6 months, so I judged the $45 I spent on the game well worth it. AoE II came out, and it had a whole new set of strategies and AI, and I did that for a while.When my old "arcade friend" came to visit one weekend and we hooked up our laptops to play AoE, we did not play against each other. We teamed up vs. the bots. We cranked the difficulty and spotted the AI some material or something, and then had a fun time.What makes playing the bots better than players? Two things affect this.#1 - the AI is somewhat predictable, or can be made so by setting the conditions right. Now, absolute predictability is not, of course, of interest to me. But there are certain play styles to an RTS game, and I happen to like a slow-to-develop game where all sides build huge empires and then wage war at the end. I am not a huge fan of "rushes" where people build up stone age troops and go pound each other and the game ends in 20 minutes. To me that defeats the whole purpose of playing an RTS. And yet in PVP versions of these games, rushes are the ruler of the day, and people who build slowly (called "turtles") can't. It's not that I can't do rushes -- I tried them against the computer once I heard about how to do it. And it works, and I can beat the computer in 5 minutes... and it's boring. I prefer to build a civilization and do diplomacy and such, and that just doesn't happen in PVP in these games. The play style is not what I like, so I play the computer and (basically) force it to play the game the way I enjoy. For me, the building of the civilization is the most fun part... the war is the climax at the end, when I get to see if the civ I built, is as good as or better than what the computer could do. If I could find people to agree to play this way I might try it, but then there is issue #2 below...#2 - I don't like beating other people. Most hardcore PVPers assume that those of us who shy away from it are afraid to lose, but that's simply not the case. Rather, I tend to feel bad for other people when I beat them -- especially if I beat them really badly. I played SW: Galactic Battlegrounds against 3 friends from another online game once and creamed them (I tend to be very good at RTS games). I felt awful about it for days afterwards. Rather than getting a "rush" from it I just don't enjoy it. It's not fun to lose, but I also don't enjoy beating them. I like playing with other people. That's where I get my fun. I'm sorry that you must of had a bad experience with playing with other people, but for the most part for me anyway. It's not got to do with "bad experiences" really... You like playing AGAINST other people. I like playing WITH them. I don't have to feel bad when I kick the computer's ass... it's the computer. When I kick a real person's ass, I end up feeling lousy about it. Sorry if you can't understand it but that's just how it is. I haven't claimed anything about carebares or losing my fun. The OP did, not you. I think I did say that I was referring to the OP. I didn't say that you'd have more fun if you play my way. I said I think the human aspect is vital too. Which obviously YOU don't. So that should bring more of the question why play online then? To play cooperatively WITH people rather than AGAINST them. It is possible to have a fun group experience without having to pound another person.Sorry if you felt I took your comments out of context or assumed things you didn't say... but I was responding both to you, AND to the general tone of posts on this thread, all at once.CEDIT: to undo the freakin' italics that popped into the post for some reason. Stupid boards.
I don't like beating other people. Most hardcore PVPers assume that those of us who shy away from it are afraid to lose, but that's simply not the case. Rather, I tend to feel bad for other people when I beat them -- especially if I beat them really badly.
Hahahahahaahahaha, this is the best damn explanation I ever heard, about any topic, on any forum!!!
Hahahahahaahahaha, this is the best damn explanation I ever heard, about any topic, on any forum!!! Hahahahahaahahaha, this is the best damn explanation I ever heard, about any topic, on any forum!!!
Originally posted by Kyoruto How can hours of playing against bots be fun?
How can hours of watching TV be fun? How can hours of running be fun? How can hours of dancing be fun? How can hours of fishing be fun? How can hours of walking through the woods be fun? How can hours of carving wood be fun? How can hours of practicing martial arts be fun? How can hours of readin be fun? How can hours of collecting stamps be fun? How can hours of watching baseball be fun?
Different people like different things, it's just a fact of life. It's especially silly when some tiny subgroup of people like 'hardcore' PVPers is asking the question.
Originally posted by fizzle322 No PVE content can provide you with the endless range of entertainment of facing a real intelligent human opponent. It simply cannot be done.
Yes it can...blah, blah, blah
PVP doesn't mean you have to be ganked.
Open PVP means you can and will be ganked...blah, blah, blah It simply means you are competing against other players.
Not everyone likes competition...blah, blah, blah
Conceptually, there is almost nothing you can do with PVE. It always involves creating artificial intelligence that must be give the player a "good fight" but always lets him win.
This creates a perception that everybody is a winner, and it creates a hollow experience.
That's your opinion...blah, blah, blah I know you cannot look me straight in the eye and say that you find WoW to be a deep and meaningful experience, I will laugh in your face and you will laugh back.
I have never played WoW, but...blah, blah, blah You cannot gain anything by staying within your comfort zone.
Sure you can...blah, blah, blah In short I was dragged kicking and screaming into PVP before I saw the light.
And I intend to do the same for everybody.
You will fail...blah, blah, blah I genuinely see this as a service to my fellow man, dragging him kicking and screaming into PVP he adamantly claims not to want, because I know in the end it will be a fulfilling gaming experience for him.
No, it won't...blah, blah, blah
Chessack, you are beyond help, lost in your dreamworld.
You would argue that a car is not for transportation simply because a person can use it anyway they like.
Originally posted by sempiternal Originally posted by Chessack
Originally posted by fizzle322 No PVE content can provide you with the endless range of entertainment of facing a real intelligent human opponent. It simply cannot be done.
Yes it can...blah, blah, blah
PVP doesn't mean you have to be ganked.
Open PVP means you can and will be ganked...blah, blah, blah It simply means you are competing against other players.
Not everyone likes competition...blah, blah, blah
Conceptually, there is almost nothing you can do with PVE. It always involves creating artificial intelligence that must be give the player a "good fight" but always lets him win.
This creates a perception that everybody is a winner, and it creates a hollow experience.
That's your opinion...blah, blah, blah I know you cannot look me straight in the eye and say that you find WoW to be a deep and meaningful experience, I will laugh in your face and you will laugh back.
I have never played WoW, but...blah, blah, blah You cannot gain anything by staying within your comfort zone.
Sure you can...blah, blah, blah In short I was dragged kicking and screaming into PVP before I saw the light.
And I intend to do the same for everybody.
You will fail...blah, blah, blah I genuinely see this as a service to my fellow man, dragging him kicking and screaming into PVP he adamantly claims not to want, because I know in the end it will be a fulfilling gaming experience for him.
No, it won't...blah, blah, blah
My comments in red.
Chessack, you are beyond help, lost in your dreamworld.
You would argue that a car is not for transportation simply because a person can use it anyway they like.
Chessack, life is competition.
Wake up!
Oh please, get real.
Chessack is making some excellent points, and its about time the hardcore pvp players learn that not everybody wants to play for competition.
your comment "life is competition" is rediculous. we are talking about games, not about life.
MMORPG's simply don't have to be for competition. if that really was true, then PVP games would now be the best selling mmorpgs, and World of Warcraft would be all the way down with only a few subscribers. yet its currently the other way around.
Chessak's points are all flawed. He attacks the grammer and words piece by piece rather than the overall meaning and content. He is only capable of digesting data one word or sentence at a time. If I told him I was god, he would argue that I wasn't before reading the next sentence stating, "Just kidding." He does not get the big picture or overall concept and obviously niether do you.
Life is competition. Games and MMOGs are a part of life.
Even if you are playing a game with NO direct player versus player combat, you are STILL competing with every single other player in the game. Even in a single player game you are competing with the content of the developers that designed the game.
Originally posted by sempiternal Chessak's points are all flawed. He attacks the grammer and words piece by piece rather than the overall meaning and content. He is only capable of digesting data one word or sentence at a time. If I told him I was god, he would argue that I wasn't before reading the next sentence stating, "Just kidding." He does not get the big picture or overall concept and obviously niether do you.
But many of his points are correct. not everybody is looking for pvp competition, in fact, quite the opposide. most people aren't looking for competition at all. there is a reason why WoW is doing so good. there is a reason why Everquest was more successfull MMO then UO, there is a reason why UO changed its pvp ruleset after trammel.
Life is competition. Games and MMOGs are a part of life. If life is all about competition for you, then thank god I'm not you.
Even if you are playing a game with NO direct player versus player combat, you are STILL competing with every single other player in the game. Even in a single player game you are competing with the content of the developers that designed the game.
we are talking about pvp competition here, please stay on topic. also, you are NOT necisary competing with other players when not pvping. when I'm doing a dungeon in WoW, I am not competing with other players, when I'm questing in Everquest 2, I am not competing with other players (unless another person has the exact same quest and we don't group up).
Originally posted by sempiternal Chessak's points are all flawed. He attacks the grammer and words piece by piece rather than the overall meaning and content. He is only capable of digesting ......
Young padawan, your faith is strong and your reasoning is sharp, but one must recodnise a battle with no winner or loser in sight, only whiners remain, and one canot fight whiners, they zergrushed us from games, they zergrush us on a daily basis on theese forums, this is time for diferent kind of battle. Confuse your enemy, make them believe you are their friend, find out their e-mail, or even beter, their home adress, it's time to go deep underground, we have been wastly outnumbered and one should recodnise that, but never give up, only get out of sight and make it impossible for the enemy to know what we are thinking.
Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by sempiternal Life is competition. Games and MMOGs are a part of life. If life is all about competition for you, then thank god I'm not you.
Even if you are playing a game with NO direct player versus player combat, you are STILL competing with every single other player in the game. Even in a single player game you are competing with the content of the developers that designed the game. we are talking about pvp competition here, please stay on topic. also, you are NOT necisary competing with other players when not pvping. when I'm doing a dungeon in WoW, I am not competing with other players, when I'm questing in Everquest 2, I am not competing with other players (unless another person has the exact same quest and we don't group up).
Life is competiton.
If you are incapable of comprehending a single short sentence, they you really are a waste of time.
In any game where there are limits, all games known to man, you are competing with any other players.
Originally posted by sempiternal Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by sempiternal Life is competition. Games and MMOGs are a part of life. If life is all about competition for you, then thank god I'm not you.
Even if you are playing a game with NO direct player versus player combat, you are STILL competing with every single other player in the game. Even in a single player game you are competing with the content of the developers that designed the game. we are talking about pvp competition here, please stay on topic. also, you are NOT necisary competing with other players when not pvping. when I'm doing a dungeon in WoW, I am not competing with other players, when I'm questing in Everquest 2, I am not competing with other players (unless another person has the exact same quest and we don't group up).
Life is competiton.
If you are incapable of comprehending a single short sentence, they you really are a waste of time.
In any game where there are limits, all games known to man, you are competing with any other players.
Life isn't competition. or at least not for most of us.
you are not always competing with any other players. like I said, when you are going in a dungeon in WoW, or if your question in Everquest, you are not competing with anybody. simple fact that everybody can look up.
Originally posted by sempiternal One last bit of help: Are there limited resources within WoW and Everquest? Yes? Then you are competing for them! Competiton is not defined by the method. Bye carebears!
There are so many recources in WoW and Everquest that there is hardly such a thing as competing. but yes, in very rare cases, that could be considered competing. rare as in, two players going after the exact same recource at the same time, at the same place. having played both WoW and EQ, thats rare. very rare.
not to mention that is only such a small part of the game. and it still does not take away that the bigges part of the game is not about competition.
Comments
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
I can't fathom that, but some people seem to love it. Unlike you, though, just because something isn't fun for me, doesn't mean that I assume it isn't fun for anyone else. I have no problem with some games having some or even exclusively PVP... just don't expect me (or anyone like me) to play them.
The original post said, "The carebears lost something" -- namely, the "excitement" of PVP. Many of us have said, "We didn't want that in the first place." And so, as a result, we have lost nothing.
You folks, on the other hands, if you really like the excitement of PVP, have also lost nothing. The only way you've lost anything is if you wanted "easy targets" via the carebears. The only reason to argue that carebears should be forced to PVP is so you can have easy prey. There is no other conceivable reason why anyone would want people who have no interest in PVP and probably little skill at it, to be forced into it.
The thing is, the motivation here is transparently obvious. You're not fooling anyone by saying "You'll have more fun if you play my way." We know that's simply not true, because we know what is fun for us, and being your target isn't fun for us. It's fun for YOU... and that's what has been lost. The easy targets.
You are the ones who have lost something... you are the ones unhappy about the situation. The carebears of the world are, for the most part, thrilled not to have to deal with you people. I mean can you blame us? Just look at the smug and overbearing attitude of the hardcore PVP people on threads like this. To paraphrase you, "How can hours of being subjected to these rude and obnxious people be any fun?"
The answer for most of us carebears is, "It isn't" -- and so we haven't lost anything at all. We've GAINED... gained the ability to not deal with you people, and be able to enjoy playing the game that WE PAY FOR, in our own way.
C
Sure.. Misses pissy. Assume all you want. But the fact is that someone asks a legitimate question and you get all on your high horse doesn't mean you know what I want to know. You don't need to be rude for no reason what so ever and if you want to assume at least put some logic in it. Then again you're probably a closet racist if you make such generalizations.
Siehst du mich
Erkennst du mich
Ganz tief in meinem Herz
ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
Ich suche dich
Ich sehne mich
nach dem was ich geliebt hab
doch ich find es nicht
I can't fathom that, but some people seem to love it. Unlike you, though, just because something isn't fun for me, doesn't mean that I assume it isn't fun for anyone else. I have no problem with some games having some or even exclusively PVP... just don't expect me (or anyone like me) to play them.
The original post said, "The carebears lost something" -- namely, the "excitement" of PVP. Many of us have said, "We didn't want that in the first place." And so, as a result, we have lost nothing.
You folks, on the other hands, if you really like the excitement of PVP, have also lost nothing. The only way you've lost anything is if you wanted "easy targets" via the carebears. The only reason to argue that carebears should be forced to PVP is so you can have easy prey. There is no other conceivable reason why anyone would want people who have no interest in PVP and probably little skill at it, to be forced into it.
The thing is, the motivation here is transparently obvious. You're not fooling anyone by saying "You'll have more fun if you play my way." We know that's simply not true, because we know what is fun for us, and being your target isn't fun for us. It's fun for YOU... and that's what has been lost. The easy targets.
You are the ones who have lost something... you are the ones unhappy about the situation. The carebears of the world are, for the most part, thrilled not to have to deal with you people. I mean can you blame us? Just look at the smug and overbearing attitude of the hardcore PVP people on threads like this. To paraphrase you, "How can hours of being subjected to these rude and obnxious people be any fun?"
The answer for most of us carebears is, "It isn't" -- and so we haven't lost anything at all. We've GAINED... gained the ability to not deal with you people, and be able to enjoy playing the game that WE PAY FOR, in our own way.
C
I have to say that this post sums up everything, I think we can close all thread about this and move to the next arguement. Lets go back to something we have not heard in awhile.
like
Is EvE really a good game.
or
Is GW really an MMORPG.....or you guys can pick whatever you want.
Thank you Chessack, I could not say better.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
I can't fathom that, but some people seem to love it. Unlike you, though, just because something isn't fun for me, doesn't mean that I assume it isn't fun for anyone else. I have no problem with some games having some or even exclusively PVP... just don't expect me (or anyone like me) to play them.
The original post said, "The carebears lost something" -- namely, the "excitement" of PVP. Many of us have said, "We didn't want that in the first place." And so, as a result, we have lost nothing.
You folks, on the other hands, if you really like the excitement of PVP, have also lost nothing. The only way you've lost anything is if you wanted "easy targets" via the carebears. The only reason to argue that carebears should be forced to PVP is so you can have easy prey. There is no other conceivable reason why anyone would want people who have no interest in PVP and probably little skill at it, to be forced into it.
The thing is, the motivation here is transparently obvious. You're not fooling anyone by saying "You'll have more fun if you play my way." We know that's simply not true, because we know what is fun for us, and being your target isn't fun for us. It's fun for YOU... and that's what has been lost. The easy targets.
You are the ones who have lost something... you are the ones unhappy about the situation. The carebears of the world are, for the most part, thrilled not to have to deal with you people. I mean can you blame us? Just look at the smug and overbearing attitude of the hardcore PVP people on threads like this. To paraphrase you, "How can hours of being subjected to these rude and obnxious people be any fun?"
The answer for most of us carebears is, "It isn't" -- and so we haven't lost anything at all. We've GAINED... gained the ability to not deal with you people, and be able to enjoy playing the game that WE PAY FOR, in our own way.
C
Well, I was talking about challenge is all. You said you play against bots in EE II. Which is fine, but I want to know doesn't it get boring. I don't expect people to do anything. I just want to know what makes the bots better then humans for you. I'm not talking about being ganked cause in EE II the only way that happens if you don't even fight back. Actually that happens in any RTS. I like playing with other people. That's where I get my fun. I'm sorry that you must of had a bad experience with playing with other people, but for the most part for me anyway. Everyone I played against was very nice and complemented on my strategy. I wasn't referring to FFA PvP with full loot like people assume. Cause personally I don't want to lose all my loot. Doesn't mean the concept isn't interesting to me either. I haven't claimed anything about carebares or losing my fun. I just read your recent statement of how much you liked to play against bots. Maybe its cause of my short attention span, but I can't always do that. I need a change of pace from time to time. So thanks for assuming shit I didn't even insinuate. I ask you for a simple answer and you attack my character. I didn't say that you'd have more fun if you play my way. I said I think the human aspect is vital too. Which obviously YOU don't. So that should bring more of the question why play online then? Also I see you don't actually quote all of my post which makes it more assumptions on your part. Instead of listing what I said I liked and didn't force on you. So please you've already made yourself and me look like an ass.
And on GLs comment- See that's what I was looking for. And I got to ask, What makes all that fun? Would you say the unknown and being awestruck? Personally I'd love it if games did more of that too. Where you're completely like "OH my!
Siehst du mich
Erkennst du mich
Ganz tief in meinem Herz
ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
Ich suche dich
Ich sehne mich
nach dem was ich geliebt hab
doch ich find es nicht
I have a couple of awards to give out, direct from flame warriors. I have slightly edited the text, but meh.
Chessak, I hereby award you the rank of
PHILOSOPHER
Philosopher is quite knowledgeable on a variety of subjects. Somewhat humorless and aloof, he is also slow to anger, and when he deigns to join in the fray he is considerate of other opinions. His fighting tactics are direct and uncomplicated - he smothers the opposition with his ponderous and lengthy cogitations.
===================================
Next, for several people, I award the rank of
FERROUS CRANUS
Ferrous Cranus is utterly impervious to reason, persuasion and new ideas, and when engaged in battle he will not yield an inch in his position regardless of its hopelessness. Though his thrusts are decisively repulsed, his arguments crushed in every detail and his defenses demolished beyond repair he will remount the same attack again and again with only the slightest variation in tactics. Sometimes out of pure frustration Philosopher will try to explain to him the failed logistics of his situation, or Therapist will attempt to penetrate the psychological origins of his obduracy, but, ever unfathomable, Ferrous Cranus cannot be moved.
====================================
That will be all, thank you.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
I can tell you that buffbots in SWG, portal bots in AC, macro miners in EVE, and forced TS/Vent use to join groups or guilds weren't created by this "whining carebear conspiracy." They were created by PvPers, and PvP guilds, to succeed in PvP against those who don't use or do such things.
Its all well and good to talk about roleplay, or crafting, or creating a virtual community. Its all talk though, because each and every time I have seen PvPers and PvP guilds in practice, roleplay takes a backseat to pwning. Crafting, buffing, and out of combat activities become routinized, alted, and automated. The only community that matters are the ones who share the TS/Vent server, which are also the ones that the professionalized guilds bring from their last game.
I keep hearing that in games without bigtime PvP, the game takes a backseat to the notion that "everyone can win." Yet in every game I have been in with bigtime PvP, the game takes a backseat to the needs of PvP. Everyone starts to look less like characters, and more like industrial products grinding out the same optimized FOTM PvP templates, or gearing with the same, optimized gear from crafting alts; and playing with the same people we drag from game to game through our guilds. If pre-combat preparations can be macro-automated, and AFKd, then they will be, with no apologies to the ones who actually play support roles. I can say for certain that it happens, because I haven't seen a PvP game yet where it doesn't happen.
In short, let me just say that while I love PvP, I hate the sort of things PvPers and PvP guilds have done to the games in the name of increased effectiveness in PvP. Its much too clinical and seriously administered for it to resemble "fun," as I used to know it.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
If it's such an inoffensive name, why don't you take it for yourself? Call you and people who like your playstyle carebears, since there's nothing offensive about it. Face it, unless someone is a preteen girl, comparing them or their preferred gaming style to a stuffed animal associated with rainbows and such is insulting. You wouldn't take 'carebear' as a term for yourself, because you actually know that they're not intended as a compliment or simple label. Also, you're the only one who's been whining and crying, sobbing up a storm over how prejudiced people are against 'hardcore' PVPers, when what people are really prejudiced against is jackasses. What you said above is pretty much a textbook example of being a jackass, if you want people to take your ideas seriously and respond politely to you then you need not to say things like that.
Thats the term, get over it. Its just a name, and there is nothing derogatory about it. If its THAT bad.....get off the ground, wipe the tears from your eyes, and say "Alright! thats how we're branded! I guess I'll have to put up with it." It gonna be okay Steely, really, its gonna be okay.
This seems like an honest question, so I will answer it. The answers are several fold.
First off, since EE II is a simple game I got off the bargain rack for $30, it's not something I plan to play for a thousand hours. You're right, eventually, playing against the bots gets boring. It happened in AoE eventually -- when I could beat a 3-on-1 situation on "hardest" (3 computers, allied, against me), at that point I realized there was nothing left to do... and I stopped playing. That took me about 6 months, so I judged the $45 I spent on the game well worth it. AoE II came out, and it had a whole new set of strategies and AI, and I did that for a while.
When my old "arcade friend" came to visit one weekend and we hooked up our laptops to play AoE, we did not play against each other. We teamed up vs. the bots. We cranked the difficulty and spotted the AI some material or something, and then had a fun time.
What makes playing the bots better than players? Two things affect this.
#1 - the AI is somewhat predictable, or can be made so by setting the conditions right. Now, absolute predictability is not, of course, of interest to me. But there are certain play styles to an RTS game, and I happen to like a slow-to-develop game where all sides build huge empires and then wage war at the end. I am not a huge fan of "rushes" where people build up stone age troops and go pound each other and the game ends in 20 minutes. To me that defeats the whole purpose of playing an RTS. And yet in PVP versions of these games, rushes are the ruler of the day, and people who build slowly (called "turtles") can't. It's not that I can't do rushes -- I tried them against the computer once I heard about how to do it. And it works, and I can beat the computer in 5 minutes... and it's boring. I prefer to build a civilization and do diplomacy and such, and that just doesn't happen in PVP in these games. The play style is not what I like, so I play the computer and (basically) force it to play the game the way I enjoy. For me, the building of the civilization is the most fun part... the war is the climax at the end, when I get to see if the civ I built, is as good as or better than what the computer could do. If I could find people to agree to play this way I might try it, but then there is issue #2 below...
#2 - I don't like beating other people. Most hardcore PVPers assume that those of us who shy away from it are afraid to lose, but that's simply not the case. Rather, I tend to feel bad for other people when I beat them -- especially if I beat them really badly. I played SW: Galactic Battlegrounds against 3 friends from another online game once and creamed them (I tend to be very good at RTS games). I felt awful about it for days afterwards. Rather than getting a "rush" from it I just don't enjoy it. It's not fun to lose, but I also don't enjoy beating them.
I like playing with other people. That's where I get my fun. I'm sorry that you must of had a bad experience with playing with other people, but for the most part for me anyway.
It's not got to do with "bad experiences" really... You like playing AGAINST other people. I like playing WITH them. I don't have to feel bad when I kick the computer's ass... it's the computer. When I kick a real person's ass, I end up feeling lousy about it. Sorry if you can't understand it but that's just how it is.
I haven't claimed anything about carebares or losing my fun.
The OP did, not you. I think I did say that I was referring to the OP.
I didn't say that you'd have more fun if you play my way. I said I think the human aspect is vital too. Which obviously YOU don't. So that should bring more of the question why play online then?
To play cooperatively WITH people rather than AGAINST them. It is possible to have a fun group experience without having to pound another person.
Sorry if you felt I took your comments out of context or assumed things you didn't say... but I was responding both to you, AND to the general tone of posts on this thread, all at once.
C
EDIT: to undo the freakin' italics that popped into the post for some reason. Stupid boards.
Originally posted by Chessack
Originally posted by Kyoruto
Well, I was talking about challenge is all. You said you play against bots in EE II. Which is fine, but I want to know doesn't it get boring. I don't expect people to do anything. I just want to know what makes the bots better then humans for you. I'm not talking about being ganked cause in EE II the only way that happens if you don't even fight back. Actually that happens in any RTS.
This seems like an honest question, so I will answer it. The answers are several fold.First off, since EE II is a simple game I got off the bargain rack for $30, it's not something I plan to play for a thousand hours. You're right, eventually, playing against the bots gets boring. It happened in AoE eventually -- when I could beat a 3-on-1 situation on "hardest" (3 computers, allied, against me), at that point I realized there was nothing left to do... and I stopped playing. That took me about 6 months, so I judged the $45 I spent on the game well worth it. AoE II came out, and it had a whole new set of strategies and AI, and I did that for a while.When my old "arcade friend" came to visit one weekend and we hooked up our laptops to play AoE, we did not play against each other. We teamed up vs. the bots. We cranked the difficulty and spotted the AI some material or something, and then had a fun time.What makes playing the bots better than players? Two things affect this.#1 - the AI is somewhat predictable, or can be made so by setting the conditions right. Now, absolute predictability is not, of course, of interest to me. But there are certain play styles to an RTS game, and I happen to like a slow-to-develop game where all sides build huge empires and then wage war at the end. I am not a huge fan of "rushes" where people build up stone age troops and go pound each other and the game ends in 20 minutes. To me that defeats the whole purpose of playing an RTS. And yet in PVP versions of these games, rushes are the ruler of the day, and people who build slowly (called "turtles") can't. It's not that I can't do rushes -- I tried them against the computer once I heard about how to do it. And it works, and I can beat the computer in 5 minutes... and it's boring. I prefer to build a civilization and do diplomacy and such, and that just doesn't happen in PVP in these games. The play style is not what I like, so I play the computer and (basically) force it to play the game the way I enjoy. For me, the building of the civilization is the most fun part... the war is the climax at the end, when I get to see if the civ I built, is as good as or better than what the computer could do. If I could find people to agree to play this way I might try it, but then there is issue #2 below...#2 - I don't like beating other people. Most hardcore PVPers assume that those of us who shy away from it are afraid to lose, but that's simply not the case. Rather, I tend to feel bad for other people when I beat them -- especially if I beat them really badly. I played SW: Galactic Battlegrounds against 3 friends from another online game once and creamed them (I tend to be very good at RTS games). I felt awful about it for days afterwards. Rather than getting a "rush" from it I just don't enjoy it. It's not fun to lose, but I also don't enjoy beating them.
I like playing with other people. That's where I get my fun. I'm sorry that you must of had a bad experience with playing with other people, but for the most part for me anyway.
It's not got to do with "bad experiences" really... You like playing AGAINST other people. I like playing WITH them. I don't have to feel bad when I kick the computer's ass... it's the computer. When I kick a real person's ass, I end up feeling lousy about it. Sorry if you can't understand it but that's just how it is.
I haven't claimed anything about carebares or losing my fun.
The OP did, not you. I think I did say that I was referring to the OP.
I didn't say that you'd have more fun if you play my way. I said I think the human aspect is vital too. Which obviously YOU don't. So that should bring more of the question why play online then?
To play cooperatively WITH people rather than AGAINST them. It is possible to have a fun group experience without having to pound another person.Sorry if you felt I took your comments out of context or assumed things you didn't say... but I was responding both to you, AND to the general tone of posts on this thread, all at once.CEDIT: to undo the freakin' italics that popped into the post for some reason. Stupid boards.
you are my fat hero
Hahahahahaahahaha, this is the best damn explanation I ever heard, about any topic, on any forum!!!
Hahahahahaahahaha, this is the best damn explanation I ever heard, about any topic, on any forum!!!
How can hours of watching TV be fun? How can hours of running be fun? How can hours of dancing be fun? How can hours of fishing be fun? How can hours of walking through the woods be fun? How can hours of carving wood be fun? How can hours of practicing martial arts be fun? How can hours of readin be fun? How can hours of collecting stamps be fun? How can hours of watching baseball be fun?
Different people like different things, it's just a fact of life. It's especially silly when some tiny subgroup of people like 'hardcore' PVPers is asking the question.
You would argue that a car is not for transportation simply because a person can use it anyway they like.
Chessack, life IS competition.
Wake up!
You would argue that a car is not for transportation simply because a person can use it anyway they like.
Chessack, life is competition.
Wake up!
Oh please, get real.
Chessack is making some excellent points, and its about time the hardcore pvp players learn that not everybody wants to play for competition.
your comment "life is competition" is rediculous. we are talking about games, not about life.
MMORPG's simply don't have to be for competition. if that really was true, then PVP games would now be the best selling mmorpgs, and World of Warcraft would be all the way down with only a few subscribers. yet its currently the other way around.
Chessak's points are all flawed. He attacks the grammer and words piece by piece rather than the overall meaning and content. He is only capable of digesting data one word or sentence at a time. If I told him I was god, he would argue that I wasn't before reading the next sentence stating, "Just kidding." He does not get the big picture or overall concept and obviously niether do you.
Life is competition. Games and MMOGs are a part of life.
Even if you are playing a game with NO direct player versus player combat, you are STILL competing with every single other player in the game. Even in a single player game you are competing with the content of the developers that designed the game.
Life is competiton.
If you are incapable of comprehending a single short sentence, they you really are a waste of time.
In any game where there are limits, all games known to man, you are competing with any other players.
Life is competiton.
If you are incapable of comprehending a single short sentence, they you really are a waste of time.
In any game where there are limits, all games known to man, you are competing with any other players.
Life isn't competition. or at least not for most of us.
you are not always competing with any other players. like I said, when you are going in a dungeon in WoW, or if your question in Everquest, you are not competing with anybody. simple fact that everybody can look up.
Forget it.
One last bit of help:
Are there limited resources within WoW and Everquest?
Yes?
Then you are competing for them!
Competiton is not defined by the method.
Bye carebears!
not to mention that is only such a small part of the game.
and it still does not take away that the bigges part of the game is not about competition.